Does this prove the SoCon is a lot better than it used to be?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

There have been some arguments in the past here among SoCon folks about whether or not the SoCon is a more solid league now than it was, say, ten years ago. Some have even said in the past few years that the SoCon has been as down as they have seen it. Let me show you why IMO that is nonsense.

I will make the case that it definitely is better by comparing GSU's conference success and playoff success in two different eras.

2004 - Losses at Furman. Conference margins of victory were 44, 34, 34, 22, 47, 35
2005 - Loss @ App. and @ Wofford. Wins by 3, 38, 42, 38, and 35
Number of playoff wins in 2004 and 2005: 0

Now fast forward to 2010...
2010 - Losses at home to Samford and Wofford and on the road @ UTC. Margins of victory in conference wins were 17, 20, 7 (OT), 22, and 4
2011 - Loss on the road at App. 2 point win over the Citadel. Margins of victory in conference wins were 32, 27, 1, 30, 2, and 21
2012 - Losses @ The Citadel, at home to App. Margins of victory in conference wins were 3, 19, 32, 8, 21, 8
Number of playoff wins in these years: 7
And went to the semi finals all three years.

There is a huge difference here. You have 9 wins by 30 or more in those two years in 2004 and 2005 and 3 in the past three seasons (two of those were Western).

And I won't even get into how GSU obliterated most conference opponents from 1998-2001. Putting those numbers won't do justice since our backups got many quarters of practice in those years.

[Skjellyfetti]

You're looking at one team's performance and trying to make a blanket statement about the whole conference?

Maybe the GSU teams just aren't as good as they were a decade ago? Since GSU was mediocre from 2005-2009, does that mean the SoCon was toughest those years? xeyebrowx

I can't say if the SoCon is better or worse than it used to be... because, I haven't followed it for that long.

But, your stats don't prove what you think they do.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

You're looking at one team's performance and trying to make a blanket statement about the whole conference?

Maybe the GSU teams just aren't as good as they were a decade ago? Since GSU was mediocre from 2005-2009, does that mean the SoCon was toughest those years? xeyebrowx

I can't say if the SoCon is better or worse than it used to be... because, I haven't followed it for that long.

But, your stats don't prove what you think they do.

I'm comparing how GSU does in confernce to how we do in the playoffs...we didn't go tot he playoffs from 2006-2009, so you can't make the comparison there.
The basic argument here is...
GSU obliterates most conference competition in 2004 and 2005 - goes 0-2 in playoffs
GSU doesn't dominate nearly as much from 2010-2012 and goes 7-3 in the playoffs.

Yes, it's one team. But I think you could also look at App's margins of victory in conference games from 2005 to 2009 and compare them to GSU 1998-2002. GSU's would be higher, and I guarantee you our second string got more PT in those years than yours did.

[GlassOnion]

You're seeing what you want to see. Your stats dont have a hope of taking into account a near infinite number of evolving variables that are college football.

[citdog]

You're seeing what you want to see. Your stats dont have a hope of taking into account a near infinite number of evolving variables that are college football.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fxf5GDZ_o1w

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

You're seeing what you want to see. Your stats dont have a hope of taking into account a near infinite number of evolving variables that are college football.

If it's so easy for you to see what you want to see, it shouldn't be difficult to come up with any facts that would go against my contention that the SoCon is a more solid conference than it was 10 or more years ago, right?

[Reign of Terrier]

All I know is that Wofford has finished in the top two (or rather, tied in the top 2) 5 of the last 6 years, compared to not being in the top 3 in all but one year prior to that.

[blueballs]

The relative strength of the top of the conference- the playoff teams- from year to year is consistent. The very bottom of the conference is about the same year to year. The middle of the group is way better now than it was 10-15 years ago. The only thing I have to prove my contention is observation from watching the games.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I think the SoCon still has 3 playoff teams, 3 also-rans who had some highlights in the season, and 3 utter failures. I wouldn't say the conference is better now than in previous years, but there may be more parity now.

[CID1990]

There is definitely more parity now. That doesn't mean that the SoCon is stronger, though.

[mountaineerman]

There have been some arguments in the past here among SoCon folks about whether or not the SoCon is a more solid league now than it was, say, ten years ago. Some have even said in the past few years that the SoCon has been as down as they have seen it. Let me show you why IMO that is nonsense.

I will make the case that it definitely is better by comparing GSU's conference success and playoff success in two different eras.

2004 - Losses at Furman. Conference margins of victory were 44, 34, 34, 22, 47, 35
2005 - Loss @ App. and @ Wofford. Wins by 3, 38, 42, 38, and 35
Number of playoff wins in 2004 and 2005: 0

Now fast forward to 2010...
2010 - Losses at home to Samford and Wofford and on the road @ UTC. Margins of victory in conference wins were 17, 20, 7 (OT), 22, and 4
2011 - Loss on the road at App. 2 point win over the Citadel. Margins of victory in conference wins were 32, 27, 1, 30, 2, and 21
2012 - Losses @ The Citadel, at home to App. Margins of victory in conference wins were 3, 19, 32, 8, 21, 8
Number of playoff wins in these years: 7
And went to the semi finals all three years.

There is a huge difference here. You have 9 wins by 30 or more in those two years in 2004 and 2005 and 3 in the past three seasons (two of those were Western).

And I won't even get into how GSU obliterated most conference opponents from 1998-2001. Putting those numbers won't do justice since our backups got many quarters of practice in those years.

I think what your stats show is the difference in coaches not strength of socon

[Saint3333]

The teams at the top are down while the teams in the middle and bottom are better. Maybe that equates to a better overall conference but I don't care about that I want App to get back to being not only at the top of the SoCon but the top of the subdivision.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

The teams at the top are down while the teams in the middle and bottom are better. Maybe that equates to a better overall conference but I don't care about that I want App to get back to being not only at the top of the SoCon but the top of the subdivision.

What makes you say that? I think the top 3 from 2012 was fairly typical of the top 3 from ~10 years ago.

[Saint3333]

Over the last three years they are down.

[citdog]

The teams at the top are down while the teams in the middle and bottom are better. Maybe that equates to a better overall conference but I don't care about that I want App to get back to being not only at the top of the SoCon but the top of the subdivision.


but the SoCon is a garbage conference and the subdivision is to small for appy state teachers college remember?

[Reign of Terrier]

Considering Wofford and GSU gave the national champion a better game than anyone else did the whole year (by the admission of said team's fans), I think we can safely say that the Socon is okay.

I'm not really impressed with the Big Sky or the CAA really, I think Wofford and GSU would be favored against everyone in the bracket spare SHSU and maybe EWU.

App State's just been really inconsistent, they were so close to not making the playoffs this year.

[GlassOnion]

The whole conference has been inconsistant. If huesman had an ounce of offensive coordinator in him, and the Cit could make it through a whole season, two things that will never happen, the Socon would have been in turmoil the past two years.

[Skjellyfetti]

App State's just been really inconsistent, they were so close to not making the playoffs this year.

Y'all were actually closer to missing the playoffs than we were.

Y'all had 7 D-I wins at the end of the regular season and we had 8. One more loss and we would have been on the bubble. One more loss and y'all would have been out.

[Reign of Terrier]

Y'all were actually closer to missing the playoffs than we were.

Y'all had 7 D-I wins at the end of the regular season and we had 8. One more loss and we would have been on the bubble. One more loss and y'all would have been out.

You needed an upset win to clinch a spot. That was the point.

Wofford was nowhere near a bubble team this year. We hosted a second round game. That equivocates to being at the very least top 12, if not top 10

[Saint3333]

YT don't let facts get in the way. Many people before the last weekend thought Wofford would get woofed again.

[GlassOnion]

Without 7 wins Wofford wouldnt even have been eligible for the playoffs, let alone a home game. Thats the cut off line, App was at 8, Wofford 7. skJelly was exactly right.

[CID1990]

skJelly was exactly right.

Better mark it down or sticky this thread.

[PaladinFan]

This is just my opinion, but the Conference is stronger at the bottom and weaker at the top.

There is not a team currently in the conference I believe would have stayed within two touchdowns of the 2004 GSU team, the Furman teams in 2004 and 2005, and the App State teams from 2005-2007.

[citdog]

The whole conference has been inconsistant. If huesman had an ounce of offensive coordinator in him, and the Cit could make it through a whole season, two things that will never happen, the Socon would have been in turmoil the past two years.


http://i.imgur.com/dx6VTu8.gif

[Apphole]

This is just my opinion, but the Conference is stronger at the bottom and weaker at the top.

There is not a team currently in the conference I believe would have stayed within two touchdowns of the 2004 GSU team, the Furman teams in 2004 and 2005, and the App State teams from 2005-2007.

This.

More washed out and even-keeled.

[Apphole]

but the SoCon is a garbage conference and the subdivision is to small for appy state teachers college remember?

Citdog: master of missing the point.

Tis not the product on the field that sends us merrily into the promised land, tis just about everything else.

[citdog]

Citdog: master of missing the point.

Tis not the product on the field that sends us merrily into the promised land, tis just about everything else.


when is that presser you were sure was scheduled going to start?


Don't think y'all realize all the laughs others have had at the expense of your train wreck like attempt to move to the sun bletch. The ineptitude of your peacock and cobb is becoming LEGENDARY!

[Apphole]

when is that presser you were sure was scheduled going to start?


Don't think y'all realize all the laughs others have had at the expense of your train wreck like attempt to move to the sun bletch. The ineptitude of your peacock and cobb is becoming LEGENDARY!

You seem to be the type of person that brags about a win in the third quarter.

Prepare for a LEGENDARY crow eating thread when the inevitable comes to pass.

[citdog]

You seem to be the type of person that brags about a win in the third quarter.

Prepare for a LEGENDARY crow eating thread when the inevitable comes to pass.


against app we brag about wins in the FIRST QUARTER.


just sitting back and REALLY enjoying the show.....or lack thereof!

georgia state? charlotte? MOVE ON UP!........app????



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQFEY9RIRJA

charlotte has never played a game and they are in YOUR STATE! and they got their invite!!!


it's funny AS HELL!

[DoWe]

I am noticing a trend. Every SoCon & or APP thread turns into citdog talking smack at the APP posters about APP's FBS aspirations. I am not sure what's more pathetic, aspiring to move to lowest echelon of FBS, or citdog's jealousy over it? And yes citdog, no matter how you want to defend yourself, you come off as jealous.

[citdog]

I am noticing a trend. Every SoCon & or APP thread turns into citdog talking smack at the APP posters about APP's FBS aspirations. I am not sure what's more pathetic, aspiring to move to lowest echelon of FBS, or citdog's jealousy over it? And yes citdog, no matter how you want to defend yourself, you come off as jealous.

DoWe.......DO I?


YOU NOTICING A TREND THERE BUBBA?


You ALMOST got my motive.......

Not jealousy, as my team HAS BEEN THERE AND DONE THAT AT THAT LEVEL.

just making a point by POSTING ABOUT IT IN EVERY THREAD.


annoying.......isn't it

[Saint3333]

When was citadel successful at any level?

Last time at this level was 1992.

Three conference titles ever. 1936, 1961, and 1992. Looks like another one maybe by 2022, every 30 years you guys are good.

[citdog]

When was citadel successful at any level?

Last time at this level was 1992.

Three conference titles ever. 1936, 1961, and 1992. Looks like another one maybe by 2022, every 30 years you guys are good.


52-28

[Apphole]

Citdog has two comebacks when App fans are making a fool of him:

1. 52-28
2. Where's your SBC invite!?

We will have 0 this fall.

[citdog]

Citdog has two comebacks when App fans are making a fool of him:

1. 52-28
2. Where's your SBC invite!?

We will have 0 this fall.


it will be same result......just a different score....... no matter how big a WOODY you got.


BRAWK!

[CID1990]

When was citadel successful at any level?

Last time at this level was 1992.

Three conference titles ever. 1936, 1961, and 1992. Looks like another one maybe by 2022, every 30 years you guys are good.

The conference titles before 1992 were actually at the next level if we want to be technical about it, since there was only one division in football.

[citdog]

When was citadel successful at any level?

Last time at this level was 1992.

Three conference titles ever. 1936, 1961, and 1992. Looks like another one maybe by 2022, every 30 years you guys are good.



i KNOW it's hard, no homo, for you to keep up but this isn't about ANYONE OTHER THAN app st and the RUNNING JOKE that has become your.....




http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L09qnRfZY-k

[Reign of Terrier]

YT don't let facts get in the way. Many people before the last weekend thought Wofford would get woofed again.

They also thought Stony Brook wouldn't get in.

there was a clear disconnect between "what people thought" and what the committee actually looked to do. The whole standard of "cutting it close" with D1 wins is literally something someone pulled out of some random poster's *** this year. You only need 7, there's no extra brownie points for getting 8 or 9. Wofford has made the playoffs at least 2 or 3 other times with 7 D1 wins with some being left out of the field with more D1 wins, and this was the first year anyone conceived of the notion that we were a bubble team. It repeats the truism that if you repeat something enough times people start to believe it.

[CID1990]

Seriously, I like ASU, always have.

But 20 years ago there wasnt this inferiority complex in NC. A bunch of guys are going to deny this, but over the last few years a lot of ASU fans have begun to remind me of ECU fans back between when they left the SoCon and joined CUSA.

North Carolinians know what I am talking about. Be patient and enjoy where you are when you are.

[Saint3333]

What else does App have left to prove at this level? They can only replicate past accomplishments.

[citdog]

What else does App have left to prove at this level? They can only replicate past accomplishments.

Alabama should play in the NFC South next season.

[seantaylor]

Conference is about the same strength it has always been since Marshall left. We have some hayseeds that tried to rationalize the Hatche era and said the league was stronger then. It wasn't. GSU was just a joke then. The top three are very strong. Wofford has surpassed Furman for that spot, but again, there isn't a fourth team really worth anything, just like in the past.

[PaladinFan]

What else does App have left to prove at this level? They can only replicate past accomplishments.

The FBS conversation has absolutely zero to do with App's football success. Teams that haven't played one snap of football ever have moved to the FBS.

By that logic, Furman should move to the FBS because we have a national title and can only replicate past accomplishments.

[Reign of Terrier]

What else does App have left to prove at this level? They can only replicate past accomplishments.

It's not about the destination, it's about the journey.

[Smitty]

What else does App have left to prove at this level? They can only replicate past accomplishments.

You haven't won a championship in 6 years, and you haven't won more than 6 championships... I would start there.

[seantaylor]

You haven't won a championship in 6 years, and you haven't won more than 6 championships... I would start there.

That is pretty funny to me. Appy got fat in the Sammy Baker era where he was banging rails all day every day. GSU was terrible under sorry azz Hatcher. Now, Appy cant win a playoff game at home, and I've heard some of their fans say they are the gold standard of the FCS. They aren't. Not even close.

[Apphole]

That is pretty funny to me. Appy got fat in the Sammy Baker era where he was banging rails all day every day. GSU was terrible under sorry azz Hatcher. Now, Appy cant win a playoff game at home, and I've heard some of their fans say they are the gold standard of the FCS. They aren't. Not even close.

I suppose not winning a NC in 20 years makes Georgia Southern more of an FCS "gold standard?" We have as much as claim as any in the past decade. If you include facilites, fan support and brand recognition, we are the PLATINUM standard and its not even close.

Bold talk for fan of a team that can't seem to beat us recently and trails in the overall series.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Once again I am wanting someone - anyone - to explain how the conference is weaker at the top than it used to be?

From 1998-2004 I would say the best top 3 the conference had was 2001. Other than that year there's no real difference in the top 3 then and recently. In those years GSU was the deep playoff team and App. and Furman were not any less consistent in the playoffs than App. and Wofford have been for the past several years.

[blueballs]

I suppose not winning a NC in 20 years makes Georgia Southern more of an FCS "gold standard?" We have as much as claim as any in the past decade. If you include facilites, fan support and brand recognition, we are the PLATINUM standard and its not even close.

Bold talk for fan of a team that can't seem to beat us recently and trails in the overall series.

NDSU is the platinum standard of this division. They have won BTB NC's and sold out every home game and sold out both title games. Until somebody takes thataway from them they are they top dog.

App and GSU are about equal currently, but GSU has had more success recently than APP on a national level in the last 3 years.

Nobody knows for sure what the Satterfield era will bring for App. They may be great and get evn better, history shows that is unlikely though, but we'll find out soon enough.

[Apphole]

NDSU is the platinum standard of this division. They have won BTB NC's and sold out every home game and sold out both title games. Until somebody takes thataway from them they are they top dog.

As the national champion, they are absolutely the top dog on the field until next January, but if you're are counting the three things I mentioned beyond a team's record that characterize a football program as a whole: facilites, fan support and brand recognition, no FCS football program is higher than Appalachian. Selling out the Fargo Dome is not the same as selling out Kidd Brewer Stadium (a difference of 13,000), which ASU has done every year since 2004.



App and GSU are about equal currently, but GSU has had more success recently than APP on a national level in the last 3 years.
1-3 head to head vs three years in a row of second round playoff loses/semi appearances is a wash I suppose. I can agree with that.


Nobody knows for sure what the Satterfield era will bring for App. They may be great and get evn better, history shows that is unlikely though, but we'll find out soon enough.
So a conference champion, coached by a proven offensive mastermind at this level, returning an entire offense is destined for failure eh? We've been "due" to suck since 2008. I hear it from you people every year. Somehow we've managed to win the SoCon 7 of the last 8 years and lead the nation in attendance for the past 5. History has shown us quite the opposite actually.

[SpeedkingATL]

Back to the original question it appears that the SoCon still has 3 teams that are legit Top 10-12 every year. The minor difference is that a few of the losses those teams have are from someone other than themselves such as the Citdogs winning 2 last year. I expect the middle of the conference is a little stronger with Citdogs, UTC, and to a lesser degree Sammy and Furple a threat to eventually move into the top 3 discussion. Hopefully Whee and Elon improve but who of the above teams can they expect to beat??

[citdog]

Conference is about the same strength it has always been since Marshall left. We have some hayseeds that tried to rationalize the Hatche era and said the league was stronger then. It wasn't. GSU was just a joke then. The top three are very strong. Wofford has surpassed Furman for that spot, but again, there isn't a fourth team really worth anything, just like in the past.


http://i.imgur.com/dx6VTu8.gif

[PaladinFan]

As the national champion, they are absolutely the top dog on the field until next January, but if you're are counting the three things I mentioned beyond a team's record that characterize a football program as a whole: facilites, fan support and brand recognition, no FCS football program is higher than Appalachian. Selling out the Fargo Dome is not the same as selling out Kidd Brewer Stadium (a difference of 13,000), which ASU has done every year since 2004.



1-3 head to head vs three years in a row of second round playoff loses/semi appearances is a wash I suppose. I can agree with that.


So a conference champion, coached by a proven offensive mastermind at this level, returning an entire offense is destined for failure eh? We've been "due" to suck since 2008. I hear it from you people every year. Somehow we've managed to win the SoCon 7 of the last 8 years and lead the nation in attendance for the past 5. History has shown us quite the opposite actually.

You could fill the Titanic with coaches that are great coordinators but terrible head coaches. Satterfield's reputation is as an offensive coordinator. He may be a great head coach, but he is not a great head coach simply because he shows up.

It ignores the obvious to say App State is not destined for a down year. Every team eventually hits a rough patch. Furman is in one right now. GSU had a five year slide in the mid-2000s. Montana finished this season with a losing record. Delaware finished this season with a losing record. Youngstown State is starting to show some life again after some down years. There is no such thing as a program that hits the mountain top and just stays there forever.

[Apphole]

You could fill the Titanic with coaches that are great coordinators but terrible head coaches. Satterfield's reputation is as an offensive coordinator. He may be a great head coach, but he is not a great head coach simply because he shows up.

It ignores the obvious to say App State is not destined for a down year. Every team eventually hits a rough patch. Furman is in one right now. GSU had a five year slide in the mid-2000s. Montana finished this season with a losing record. Delaware finished this season with a losing record. Youngstown State is starting to show some life again after some down years. There is no such thing as a program that hits the mountain top and just stays there forever.

2011 was pretty bad. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in your pretty little stadium. Sending the conference championship gift wrapped to Statesboro was the low point for the modern ASU football program IMO. I don't expect to experience any significant decline until the FBS transition and that is a different animal entirely.

As far as Satterfield goes, I guess nothing is certain yet, but you can't help being confident as an ASU fan. Especially since he's assembled the best coaching staff we've had since 2007 and out recruited the entire SoCon so far after having the job for a month. We'll get a better idea when we hit the field in Missoula next year.

[citdog]

2011 was pretty bad. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in your pretty little stadium. Sending the conference championship gift wrapped to Statesboro was the low point for the modern ASU football program IMO. I don't expect to experience any significant decline until the FBS transition and that is a different animal entirely.

As far as Satterfield goes, I guess nothing is certain yet, but you can't help being confident as an ASU fan. Especially since he's assembled the best coaching staff we've had since 2007 and out recruited the entire SoCon so far after having the job for a month. We'll get a better idea when we hit the field in Missoula next year.

fbs transition? when's that?

outrecruited? how many players has he signed?


ZERO.

[Smitty]

Especially since he's assembled the best coaching staff we've had since 2007 and out recruited the entire SoCon so far after having the job for a month. We'll get a better idea when we hit the field in Missoula next year.

Congrats on the recruits and out recruiting everybody!

Of course since nobody has really said anything about recruiting, it isn't hard to be the best..

[Apphole]

fbs transition? when's that?

outrecruited? how many players has he signed?


ZERO.

/facepalm

Commits*

[Apphole]

Congrats on the recruits and out recruiting everybody!

Of course since nobody has really said anything about recruiting, it isn't hard to be the best..

What?

There are info sources out there than AGS. Did Western recruit any men this year? Having an all female team has NOT worked well for your program.

[citdog]

/facepalm

Commits*


Don't mean ****.


you gotta sign 'em.

[Apphole]

Don't mean ****.


you gotta sign 'em.

Ok. We can put this conversation on hold for 10 days if you insist.

[PaladinFan]

2011 was pretty bad. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in your pretty little stadium. Sending the conference championship gift wrapped to Statesboro was the low point for the modern ASU football program IMO. I don't expect to experience any significant decline until the FBS transition and that is a different animal entirely.

As far as Satterfield goes, I guess nothing is certain yet, but you can't help being confident as an ASU fan. Especially since he's assembled the best coaching staff we've had since 2007 and out recruited the entire SoCon so far after having the job for a month. We'll get a better idea when we hit the field in Missoula next year.

Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 2011? You lose credibility when you say things like that.

App was favored, but Furman went up early, and App State never really threatened. Not sure how you give a game away when the only time your team was within a touchdown is when Furman went up 7-0.

[citdog]

Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 2011? You lose credibility when you say things like that.

App was favored, but Furman went up early, and App State never really threatened. Not sure how you give a game away when the only time your team was within a touchdown is when Furman went up 7-0.


nobody EVER beats our moonshine swilling or pig farming friends in the SoCon......they either give it away or the refs steal them

[Apphole]

Snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in 2011? You lose credibility when you say things like that.

App was favored, but Furman went up early, and App State never really threatened. Not sure how you give a game away when the only time your team was within a touchdown is when Furman went up 7-0.

I'm not talking about the actual game, I'm talking about beating the Stink the week before, basically locking up a 7th straight SoCon ring, and going to Furple and blowing it. Snatching a defeat from the jaws of victory in the conference championship race. I was at the Furman game that year and I remember every sickening second of it. You don't have to tell me. xlolx. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

[Apphole]

nobody EVER beats our moonshine swilling or pig farming friends in the SoCon......they either give it away or the refs steal them

You're describing Georgia Southern perfectly.

[Saint3333]

App just had two down years, mostly due to the lack of recruiting olineman for two years (2009-2010) and turnover of assistant coaches. 2011 we corrected the recruiting errors, 2011 offseason we corrected the assistant coaching errors. Good times are ahead.

[chattownmocs]

I love how App State thinks they are recruiting so much better than everyone else in FCS. It is quite comical.

[CID1990]

I love how App State thinks they are recruiting so much better than everyone else in FCS. It is quite comical.

Recruiting means nothing when you continually underachieve with stellar athletes.

[Skjellyfetti]

Recruiting means nothing when you continually underachieve with stellar athletes.

We haven't continually underachieved. We've under achieved for maybe the past 2 years. And we still won a conference title one of those years.

And still Southern Conference Champions 7 of the last 8 years. Hard to do that while "continually underachiev[ing]." xnodx

[citdog]

App just had two down years, mostly due to the lack of recruiting olineman for two years (2009-2010) and turnover of assistant coaches. 2011 we corrected the recruiting errors, 2011 offseason we corrected the assistant coaching errors. Good times are ahead.



you forgot "running off the one person responsible for making our program good like he was a dog".

[CID1990]

We haven't continually underachieved. We've under achieved for maybe the past 2 years. And we still won a conference title one of those years.

And still Southern Conference Champions 7 of the last 8 years. Hard to do that while "continually underachiev[ing]." xnodx

Pay attention and don't be so sensitive, Sweetiepie. That was not directed at ASU. (Who are we ALWAYS talking about as underachieving with such great athletes?)

But while we're at it, that IS a pretty good example of the complex I was talking about earlier.

[GlassOnion]

You could fill the Titanic with coaches that are great coordinators but terrible head coaches. Satterfield's reputation is as an offensive coordinator. He may be a great head coach, but he is not a great head coach simply because he shows up.

It ignores the obvious to say App State is not destined for a down year. Every team eventually hits a rough patch. Furman is in one right now. GSU had a five year slide in the mid-2000s. Montana finished this season with a losing record. Delaware finished this season with a losing record. Youngstown State is starting to show some life again after some down years. There is no such thing as a program that hits the mountain top and just stays there forever.

Even great coordinators that arent great HCs can find big success if theyre willing to defer what they dont know to someone on the staff that does know. Scott Satterfield may be prove to be the complete package, but he's already hired a 52 year old veteran DC, so if he's not, he's got the perfect man to help him out. Part of being a great HC is being able to put a great staff together, and Satt has done that.

As far as recruiting, App has taken a huge step forward.

[citdog]

Pay attention and don't be so sensitive, Sweetiepie. That was not directed at ASU. (Who are we ALWAYS talking about as underachieving with such great athletes?)

But while we're at it, that IS a pretty good example of the complex I was talking about earlier.

ECU ing if you will. they were the whinest bitches this side of app st

[citdog]

Even great coordinators that arent great HCs can find big success if theyre willing to defer what they dont know to someone on the staff that does know. Scott Satterfield may be prove to be the complete package, but he's already hired a 52 year old veteran DC, so if he's not, he's got the perfect man to help him out. Part of being a great HC is being able to put a great staff together, and Satt has done that.

As far as recruiting, App has taken a huge step forward.


we'll see how he does when the buck stops with HIM. offensive coordinators don't have won-lost records. truth be told you are at a disadvantage in EVERY game you play against a veteran HEAD COACH. for the first time in decades coaching is a question mark in boone, nc. if it fails it will be A SPECTACULAR EPIC FAIL!

[GlassOnion]

for the first time in decades coaching is a question mark in boone,

There has been questionable coaching the last three years in Boone.

[Horseshoe App]

we'll see how he does when the buck stops with HIM. offensive coordinators don't have won-lost records. truth be told you are at a disadvantage in EVERY game you play against a veteran HEAD COACH. for the first time in decades coaching is a question mark in boone, nc. if it fails it will be A SPECTACULAR EPIC FAIL!
Then we would be in the company of The Citadel. Failing is a common thing for the bell hops.

[citdog]

Then we would be in the company of The Citadel. Failing is a common thing for the bell hops.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YLUVDPFbQ

[CID1990]

There has been questionable coaching the last three years in Boone.

Seriously- Moore was probably going to be gone after 1 more season anyway, but you guys need to lighten up with the guy. Nobody else brought the trophies to Boone. You might find yourselves wishing for the good ol days of Jerry Moore before long. We do the same thing; wondering why the hell we fired Charlie Taaffe. That one act brought us 15 years of musical coaches, fundamental offense changes, you name it. We are only now righting the ship. I know there are differences in the two situations, but a lot of the ASU faithful seem pretty quick to poor mouth Coach Moore.

[GlassOnion]

Seriously- Moore was probably going to be gone after 1 more season anyway, but you guys need to lighten up with the guy. Nobody else brought the trophies to Boone. You might find yourselves wishing for the good ol days of Jerry Moore before long. We do the same thing; wondering why the hell we fired Charlie Taaffe. That one act brought us 15 years of musical coaches, fundamental offense changes, you name it. We are only now righting the ship. I know there are differences in the two situations, but a lot of the ASU faithful seem pretty quick to poor mouth Coach Moore.

You guys need to lighten up, its not your business, yet its a Citadel poster bringing it up in every thread. Its not poor mouthing to recognise that after a hellacious past 3 years, we no longer have the internal division and complete mess in our coaching staff because of a complete lack of control and some terrible staffing decisions.

[citdog]

You guys need to lighten up, its not your business, yet its a Citadel poster bringing it up in every thread. Its not poor mouthing to recognise that after a hellacious past 3 years, we no longer have the internal division and complete mess in our coaching staff because of a complete lack of control and some terrible staffing decisions.

207-83

WHAT A BUM!


http://www.digtriad.com/images/640/360/2/assetpool/images/121202065907_coach%20jerry%20moore.jpg

[CID1990]

You guys need to lighten up, its not your business, yet its a Citadel poster bringing it up in every thread. Its not poor mouthing to recognise that after a hellacious past 3 years, we no longer have the internal division and complete mess in our coaching staff because of a complete lack of control and some terrible staffing decisions.

Lol GlassOnion saying something's not somebody's business.

You guys really ARE uptight. Gonna start calling you ECU-Boone.

[GlassOnion]

Lol GlassOnion saying something's not somebody's business.

You guys really ARE uptight. Gonna start calling you ECU-Boone.

Shoot, football in Charleston SC must really suck for Citadel fans to be so obsessed with the inner workings of App State. With a successful season every three decades, you guys should be getting close to another in about what, another 8 years?

[citdog]

Lol GlassOnion saying something's not somebody's business.

You guys really ARE uptight. Gonna start calling you ECU-Boone.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iu-yyMswR8Q

[Horseshoe App]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4YLUVDPFbQ

So that means we have won 7 out of the 8. Keep beating your chest for that one win. How can we compete with the mighty Bulldogs? For goodness sakes you talk allot of crap for a team that has a putrid record against us. Yes, you definitely have an inferior complex. Jealousy is a bad thing.

[citdog]

Shoot, football in Charleston SC must really suck for Citadel fans to be so obsessed with the inner workings of App State. With a successful season every three decades, you guys should be getting close to another in about what, another 8 years



http://images.sodahead.com/polls/001423071/none_of_your_business_women_s_t_shirts_design_answ er_3_xlarge.png

[citdog]

So that means we have won 7 out of the 8. Keep beating your chest for that one win. How can we compete with the mighty Bulldogs? For goodness sakes you talk allot of crap for a team that has a putrid record against us. Yes, you definitely have an inferior complex. Jealousy is a bad thing.


all that matters is that it was THE LAST ONE!


you just gave up on trying to spell INFERIORITY.....didn't you

[GlassOnion]

Citdog, bringing lame to the masses since 2003.

[citdog]

Citdog, bringing lame to the masses since 2003.

glassonion LONGTIME APP FAN


circa 2010

[Horseshoe App]

all that matters is that it was THE LAST ONE!


you just gave up on trying to spell INFERIORITY.....didn't you

No, I did not. You are delusional if the only one that matters is the last one. Keep believing that. Oh, by the way, when did your team last win the conference championship or even make the playoff? I may have screwed up on my grammar, but at least we did share the conference championship last year. Remember, the last one is all that matters:)

[citdog]

No, I did not. You are delusional if the only one that matters is the last one. Keep believing that. Oh, by the way, when did your team last win the conference championship or even make the playoff? I may have screwed up on my grammar, but at least we did share the conference championship last year. Remember, the last one is all that matters:)


thanks for the diagnosis.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KMDCdEHbnI8/TcGYAgzYuJI/AAAAAAAAAsw/6QreX9fKxWE/s1600/Carl+Jung+in+his+house%2527s+garden+sitting+and+sm oking+pipe+in+Knusnacht%252C+Switzerland%252C+1949 .jpg



52-28

[GlassOnion]

glassonion LONGTIME APP FAN
circa 2010

Oooh you got me! The join date fail safe weapon! Except it fails when the person had multiple screen names on multiple sites and finally settled on one for all.

[citdog]

Oooh you got me! The join date fail safe weapon! Except it fails when the person had multiple screen names on multiple sites and finally settled on one for all.

was mountainhomo taken?

geez.....where is Appaholic........these things used to be FUN!

[Saint3333]

The youngest former player to wear a championship ring at citadel is 38 today.

[Horseshoe App]

thanks for the diagnosis.


http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-KMDCdEHbnI8/TcGYAgzYuJI/AAAAAAAAAsw/6QreX9fKxWE/s1600/Carl+Jung+in+his+house%2527s+garden+sitting+and+sm oking+pipe+in+Knusnacht%252C+Switzerland%252C+1949 .jpg



52-28

When you lose the debate, you try to cover it up with something witty. I will take that as a compliment.

[citdog]

The youngest former player to wear a championship ring at citadel is 38 today.



since Appaholic seems to need a double testicle transplant and probably a liver and kidneys while their at it I am trying to groom one of you queers. THIS ends all debate.



http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/vmi-cheerleader.jpg


BOOM!

IN MY FACE!

[Horseshoe App]

since Appaholic seems to need a double testicle transplant and probably a liver and kidneys while their at it I am trying to groom one of you queers. THIS ends all debate.



http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/vmi-cheerleader.jpg


BOOM!

IN MY FACE!

I know, you just want to have some fun. Hell, I need to up my game just to have fun

[CID1990]

No kidding- where the hell is Appaholio

[seantaylor]

2011 was pretty bad. We snatched defeat from the jaws of victory in your pretty little stadium. Sending the conference championship gift wrapped to Statesboro was the low point for the modern ASU football program IMO. I don't expect to experience any significant decline until the FBS transition and that is a different animal entirely.

As far as Satterfield goes, I guess nothing is certain yet, but you can't help being confident as an ASU fan. Especially since he's assembled the best coaching staff we've had since 2007 and out recruited the entire SoCon so far after having the job for a month. We'll get a better idea when we hit the field in Missoula next year.

You are nuts to think Appy has a better recruiting class than GSU. But, please continue

[Smitty]

You guys need to lighten up, its not your business, yet its a Citadel poster bringing it up in every thread. Its not poor mouthing to recognise that after a hellacious past 3 years, we no longer have the internal division and complete mess in our coaching staff because of a complete lack of control and some terrible staffing decisions.

http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/1289067.jpg

[GlassOnion]

Breaking News - Offseason Western fan shows face.


Dont get pissed at App because of West Carolina's zero leadership and dumb hires. I remember Western fans talking crap when they got Dennis and claiming top ranked recruiting classes years in a row. Maybe if you had a few of App's standards you'd crack the win column once in a while. Will it happen with App's castoffs? We'll see, but I doubt Speir gets the 5+ years he'll need.

[Apphole]

You are nuts to think Appy has a better recruiting class than GSU. But, please continue

So you've been lurking in MMB like I've been lurking on Talon talk? Otherwise you're just a presumptuous twat.

[Smitty]

Breaking News - Offseason Western fan shows face.


Dont get pissed at App because of West Carolina's zero leadership and dumb hires. I remember Western fans talking crap when they got Dennis and claiming top ranked recruiting classes years in a row. Maybe if you had a few of App's standards you'd crack the win column once in a while. Will it happen with App's castoffs? We'll see, but I doubt Speir gets the 5+ years he'll need.

Must have struck a nerve.

All hires give fans hope. Any time we have a coach with big dreams of returning a successful football program will get the fans hyped up at the beginning. If they fail at their job they are shown the door. Hopefully with the new chancellor and AD we bring our program back from the depths. In 4 years you could find that Satterfield could be the blemish your program didn't need instead of the next coming of Moore (which in my opinion nobody should talk crap about him *and that is coming from a western fan who dealt with a 120944097-35 ASU victory*)

Off season? Been here all year for a few years now...

[Apphole]

You are nuts to think Appy has a better recruiting class than GSU. But, please continue

Seriously though, I don't see any players on your commit list that remotely compare to Lee Wright or Taylor Lamb.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I don't see any players on your commit list that remotely compare to Lee Wright or Taylor Lamb.

Rivals said so. It must be true.

[Apphole]

Rivals said so. It must be true.

I put more stock in "also recruited by" and awards than stars. I'm not a UNCC fan.

[SpeedkingATL]

Rivals said so. It must be true.

Actually GaSo has a couple of RB's I wouldn't have minded seeing in black and gold.

[GlassOnion]

Must have struck a nerve.

All hires give fans hope. Any time we have a coach with big dreams of returning a successful football program will get the fans hyped up at the beginning. If they fail at their job they are shown the door. Hopefully with the new chancellor and AD we bring our program back from the depths. In 4 years you could find that Satterfield could be the blemish your program didn't need instead of the next coming of Moore (which in my opinion nobody should talk crap about him *and that is coming from a western fan who dealt with a 120944097-35 ASU victory*)

Off season? Been here all year for a few years now...

Nobody was talking about Moore before Citadel fans got here. He is gone, and it was clearly time for him to go. It should be the end, but non-App fans cant let it go. Its funny that even on the Catamount board there is talk about Glenn's predictability in playcalling, straight dives, and dives to the right, just what Jerry Moore ordered, and just what App fans have been lamenting for 3 years. In the NC years App had an OLine that consisted entirely of All-America and All Conference players, about a total of 11 of them. JM did not recruit OL for 2 years, and we've had 1 or 2 All Conference OL in the past 3 years. Jerry's offensive playcalling was the same throughout, just like a submarine commander, dive! dive! dive! That worked behind Kerry Brown, Matt Isenhour, Scott Suttle etc. Not so much behind the 5'9 250 walkon OC/OG that started for us the past 2 years. Add his staff arguing on the sidelines and unable to get playcalls in, nepotism, great/experienced staff bailing on him, and being replaced by former players with 1 year HS coaching experience instead of experienced coaches, massive off field issues, and his dismissal is a no brainer. If Jerry had taken the offer App gave him earlier this year, JM would be making more money than he did last year, and be able to go and do basically whatever he wanted for the next 3 years. He was a better person than he was coach at this point in his career. Being an ambassador for the university, and guest speaker for all the invites he got, while on our dime should have been a perfect fit for him.

In the words of a great American military hero, football All-American, cultural icon and shrimp boat captain, Thats all Ive got to say about that.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I put more stock in "also recruited by" and awards than stars. I'm not a UNCC fan.

If I understand right the stars are based on who is actually offering scholarships. When Hatcher was the coach we recrutied quite a few guys with FBS offers. Javon Mention and Patrick Barker (both seniors this past season) would probably be his best recruits if you are going by other offers. Barker had an offer from Oregon State and Mention got a late offer from Louisville. Good players who were both lettermen, but not AA or all-SoCon talent.

I'm sure you've got a good recruiting class, but the guys who will turn out to be the game changers often aren't the ones who were the best HS players.

[Apphole]

If I understand right the stars are based on who is actually offering scholarships. When Hatcher was the coach we recrutied quite a few guys with FBS offers. Javon Mention and Patrick Barker (both seniors this past season) would probably be his best recruits if you are going by other offers. Barker had an offer from Oregon State and Mention got a late offer from Louisville. Good players who were both lettermen, but not AA or all-SoCon talent.

I'm sure you've got a good recruiting class, but the guys who will turn out to be the game changers often aren't the ones who were the best HS players.

Absolutely. There is no way to tell if any will pan out. But there are obvious distictions between recruiting classes. It is looking VERY good for App this year.

[CID1990]

Nobody was talking about Moore before Citadel fans got here. He is gone, and it was clearly time for him to go. It should be the end, but non-App fans cant let it go. Its funny that even on the Catamount board there is talk about Glenn's predictability in playcalling, straight dives, and dives to the right, just what Jerry Moore ordered, and just what App fans have been lamenting for 3 years. In the NC years App had an OLine that consisted entirely of All-America and All Conference players, about a total of 11 of them. JM did not recruit OL for 2 years, and we've had 1 or 2 All Conference OL in the past 3 years. Jerry's offensive playcalling was the same throughout, just like a submarine commander, dive! dive! dive! That worked behind Kerry Brown, Matt Isenhour, Scott Suttle etc. Not so much behind the 5'9 250 walkon OC/OG that started for us the past 2 years. Add his staff arguing on the sidelines and unable to get playcalls in, nepotism, great/experienced staff bailing on him, and being replaced by former players with 1 year HS coaching experience instead of experienced coaches, massive off field issues, and his dismissal is a no brainer. If Jerry had taken the offer App gave him earlier this year, JM would be making more money than he did last year, and be able to go and do basically whatever he wanted for the next 3 years. He was a better person than he was coach at this point in his career. Being an ambassador for the university, and guest speaker for all the invites he got, while on our dime should have been a perfect fit for him.

In the words of a great American military hero, football All-American, cultural icon and shrimp boat captain, Thats all Ive got to say about that.

cliff's notes plz

[chattownmocs]

Its pretty laughable to watch these rejects argue over their recruiting classes. The talk usually revolves around recruiting service stars or so called offer lists. These offer lists come from the players in most cases. Typically if a player ends up in the fcs his FBS offers werent truly committable. The stars mean the players have been scouted and werent deemed to be very good. Typically app state and Georgia southern may end up with a few more 2 stars than everyone else. Clearly they have done a better job recruiting than everyone else historically but you wont know who is recruiting better now for several years.

[ASUMountaineer]

since Appaholic seems to need a double testicle transplant and probably a liver and kidneys while their at it I am trying to groom one of you queers. THIS ends all debate.



http://images.thetruthaboutcars.com/2008/11/vmi-cheerleader.jpg


BOOM!

IN MY FACE!

Damn, I go away and Citdog has to do this to himself. WTF? See Citdog, I may not be Appaholic, but you need me just the same.

[Apphole]

Its pretty laughable to watch these rejects argue over their recruiting classes. The talk usually revolves around recruiting service stars or so called offer lists. These offer lists come from the players in most cases. Typically if a player ends up in the fcs his FBS offers werent truly committable. The stars mean the players have been scouted and werent deemed to be very good. Typically app state and Georgia southern may end up with a few more 2 stars than everyone else. Clearly they have done a better job recruiting than everyone else historically but you wont know who is recruiting better now for several years.


Conference champions*

[blueballs]

Its pretty laughable to watch these rejects argue over their recruiting classes. The talk usually revolves around recruiting service stars or so called offer lists. These offer lists come from the players in most cases. Typically if a player ends up in the fcs his FBS offers werent truly committable. The stars mean the players have been scouted and werent deemed to be very good. Typically app state and Georgia southern may end up with a few more 2 stars than everyone else. Clearly they have done a better job recruiting than everyone else historically but you wont know who is recruiting better now for several years.
Very true...

One player like an Armanti Edwards or and Adrian Peterson can make a recruiting class great. Also, a lot of recruiting is based on need and system. For example, the guys who GSU sign as o-linemen generally won't be turning any heads in the recruiting service scouting reports but if they can "play under a card table" and are mobile they can work real well in GSU's system.

As far as rating classes, I am more inclined to rate a class higher based on off the wall names. If your recruits are named Scott, Tom, Rich, and Jim, chances are they aren't as good as DeJuan, Daquan, Ophelio, and Cordell.

[citdog]

Very true...

One player like an Armanti Edwards or and Adrian Peterson can make a recruiting class great. Also, a lot of recruiting is based on need and system. For example, the guys who GSU sign as o-linemen generally won't be turning any heads in the recruiting service scouting reports but if they can "play under a card table" and are mobile they can work real well in GSU's system.

As far as rating classes, I am more inclined to rate a class higher based on off the wall names. If your recruits are named Scott, Tom, Rich, and Jim, chances are they aren't as good as DeJuan, Daquan, Ophelio, and Cordell.



http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/091/284/eso_es_racista.gif?1294075992

[citdog]

Conference champions*

yep it sure was time for the coach to go.

[PaladinFan]

Very true...

One player like an Armanti Edwards or and Adrian Peterson can make a recruiting class great. Also, a lot of recruiting is based on need and system. For example, the guys who GSU sign as o-linemen generally won't be turning any heads in the recruiting service scouting reports but if they can "play under a card table" and are mobile they can work real well in GSU's system.

As far as rating classes, I am more inclined to rate a class higher based on off the wall names. If your recruits are named Scott, Tom, Rich, and Jim, chances are they aren't as good as DeJuan, Daquan, Ophelio, and Cordell.

Furman has one commit so far that is a big mobile TE (6'6 250 range). Word is they intend to make him a tackle. I imagine that will not pan out well in the recruiting services, but a mobile OT in the 6'6 280 range would be a force in the SoCon.

[Apphole]

yep it sure was time for the coach to go.

It certainly was.

[CID1990]

Its pretty laughable to watch these rejects argue over their recruiting classes. The talk usually revolves around recruiting service stars or so called offer lists. These offer lists come from the players in most cases. Typically if a player ends up in the fcs his FBS offers werent truly committable. The stars mean the players have been scouted and werent deemed to be very good. Typically app state and Georgia southern may end up with a few more 2 stars than everyone else. Clearly they have done a better job recruiting than everyone else historically but you wont know who is recruiting better now for several years.

Says the guy who annually proclaims UTC's athletes to be the best in the SoCon.

And then annually disappears in October or November.

[GlassOnion]

Furman has one commit so far that is a big mobile TE (6'6 250 range). Word is they intend to make him a tackle. I imagine that will not pan out well in the recruiting services, but a mobile OT in the 6'6 280 range would be a force in the SoCon.

Now who is being over-optimistic? You think the guy is going to put on 40 lbs and be just as mobile? App has a number of TEs and OTs that look pretty much just like what your 6'6 250 OT will probably look like in 2 years, and as you can see, we're straight tearin it up. xrolleyesx

Look up Dylan Bostic, App OL commit a few years back, 6'6 280, ran a 4.8 straight line 40, benched some insane weight, something like 18 FBS offers, gone after 2 seasons, never saw the field.

[GlassOnion]

cliff's notes plz

If/when I write a post intended for you, I'll be sure to use small simple words and make it very brief.

[PaladinNation]

Now who is being over-optimistic? You think the guy is going to put on 40 lbs and be just as mobile? App has a number of TEs and OTs that look pretty much just like what your 6'6 250 OT will probably look like in 2 years, and as you can see, we're straight tearin it up. xrolleyesx

Look up Dylan Bostic, App OL commit a few years back, 6'6 280, ran a 4.8 straight line 40, benched some insane weight, something like 18 FBS offers, gone after 2 seasons, never saw the field.

The player is Aaron Black and I think he has the frame to add 25 pounds easy… IMO film says it all, and similar to Bostic, Black is listed with offers from Cincy to Colorado St.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=zHcpXdsVxLU

[CID1990]

If/when I write a post intended for you, I'll be sure to use small simple words and make it very brief.

Like every book in the ASU library?

[PaladinFan]

Now who is being over-optimistic? You think the guy is going to put on 40 lbs and be just as mobile? App has a number of TEs and OTs that look pretty much just like what your 6'6 250 OT will probably look like in 2 years, and as you can see, we're straight tearin it up. xrolleyesx

Look up Dylan Bostic, App OL commit a few years back, 6'6 280, ran a 4.8 straight line 40, benched some insane weight, something like 18 FBS offers, gone after 2 seasons, never saw the field.

Well, first, let's get the facts right. I did not say he was going to be "as mobile." I said he would be mobile. If you take a big TE with good footwork, and make him into a tackle, he will still have good foot work. He will still be able to move.

Second, you know as well as I do that straight line speed and mobility are different things. Richie Williams was no burner, but he ranks among the most mobile players I've ever seen. Jerome Felton was not fast, but his mobility and footwork were phenomenal.

It is stating the obvious that sometimes players do not pan out. Furman, like App, has had highly regarded players not make the cut. The kid may end up a dud, but he may be a four year starter. Furman was extremely young on the offensive line last year and are pushing hard to rebuild depth.

[EKU-n-GSU]

Very true...

One player like an Armanti Edwards or and Adrian Peterson can make a recruiting class great. Also, a lot of recruiting is based on need and system. For example, the guys who GSU sign as o-linemen generally won't be turning any heads in the recruiting service scouting reports but if they can "play under a card table" and are mobile they can work real well in GSU's system.

This. W/respect to O-linemen specifically, I'm always surprised by the number of 300+ lb. kids coming out of HS with much ballihoo that don't pan out because they are not athletic. I get that everyone is trying to groom their OL towards the NFL-type passing attach, but if they can't out-position a quicker DE or LB, then all that extra weight is a boat anchor.