Big East Breakup FCS Ramifications

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Most people view ACC and Big XII as the same strength of conference schedule.

Not Sag.

[MplsBison]

Not Sag.

Cool ratings system!

...that won't be used by the selection committee.

[GannonFan]

Not necessarily since in-conference games vs. ACC foes vs. Big XII foes would be seen differently. Such is the nature of "schedule strength".

But again, you're looking at a super small sample size and trying to extrapolate it well past what it is useful for. If the strength of schedule was so overwhlemingly in favor of the Big 12 over the ACC, so much to vault a two loss Big 12 team over a one loss ACC team, then why, in week 11 and week 12 of this past season, was a one loss Florida St team (first 9-1 and then 10-1) still ranked at #10 ahead of first #13 and then #14 Oklahoma, who at that time had lost to only KState (#2 in week 11 and #7 in week 12) and Notre Dame (#3 in week 11 and #1 in week 12). Where in that sample do you find any credence that the Big 12 is so valued above the ACC that a two loss Big 12 team would trump a one loss ACC team? Again, the evidence isn't there.

[MplsBison]

But again, you're looking at a super small sample size and trying to extrapolate it well past what it is useful for. If the strength of schedule was so overwhlemingly in favor of the Big 12 over the ACC, so much to vault a two loss Big 12 team over a one loss ACC team, then why, in week 11 and week 12 of this past season, was a one loss Florida St team (first 9-1 and then 10-1) still ranked at #10 ahead of first #13 and then #14 Oklahoma, who at that time had lost to only KState (#2 in week 11 and #7 in week 12) and Notre Dame (#3 in week 11 and #1 in week 12). Where in that sample do you find any credence that the Big 12 is so valued above the ACC that a two loss Big 12 team would trump a one loss ACC team? Again, the evidence isn't there.

Because humans are human and not some mathematical formula.

Which is a damn good thing and I relish the fact that we're putting humans back in control of the big bowls and the new playoff. Good riddance formula!

Hello greatly increased access to the big bowls for non-BCS auto-bid conference teams!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The MVC has replaced Creighton with Loyola (IL).

http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/college/chi-loyola-mvc-20130419,0,7932195.story

[MplsBison]

Horizon League is now down to an 8-team, compact, great lakes conference:

Green Bay - Milkwaukee
Ill Chicago - Valpo (just outside Chicago)
Detroit
Wright St (Dayton, OH)
Cleveland St - Youngstown St

If I'm the Horizon League, I invite both IU-PU schools. Fort Wayne for Detroit and Indy for Wright. Also gives you some market presence in both of those markets. True that Valpo is an Indiana school technically, they're pretty close to Chicago.

This assumes Oakland would not be invited due to already having Detroit.


Now, that puts the Summit League in a precarious spot with only 7 members left (NDSU, SDSU, USD, Omaha, Denver, WIU, Oakland) and both Oakland and Denver now being a bit far flung (never liked the Denver addition, geography wise).

Not sure if they go hard for Chicago St? Try to get UMKC back?

They could try to convince either EIU or UND (or both) to join the Summit - but would have to be able to guarantee places in the MVFC. Not sure if Douple can swing that, nor do I have any inkling if either school would be willing to leave their respective all-sports conferences for a spot in a better football conference and a lateral move in basketball (at best).

[darell1976]

Horizon League is now down to an 8-team, compact, great lakes conference:

Green Bay - Milkwaukee
Ill Chicago - Valpo (just outside Chicago)
Detroit
Wright St (Dayton, OH)
Cleveland St - Youngstown St

If I'm the Horizon League, I invite both IU-PU schools. Fort Wayne for Detroit and Indy for Wright. Also gives you some market presence in both of those markets. True that Valpo is an Indiana school technically, they're pretty close to Chicago.

This assumes Oakland would not be invited due to already having Detroit.


Now, that puts the Summit League in a precarious spot with only 7 members left (NDSU, SDSU, USD, Omaha, Denver, WIU, Oakland) and both Oakland and Denver now being a bit far flung (never liked the Denver addition, geography wise).

Not sure if they go hard for Chicago St? Try to get UMKC back?

They could try to convince either EIU or UND (or both) to join the Summit - but would have to be able to guarantee places in the MVFC. Not sure if Douple can swing that, nor do I have any inkling if either school would be willing to leave their respective all-sports conferences for a spot in a better football conference and a lateral move in basketball (at best).

Douple f'd up when he could have gotten UND and UNC for baseball but instead didn't invite them and both schools went to the WAC. Trying to get them for baseball or UND for all sports plus a MVFC spot for football would be impossible. UND wants nothing to do with Douple's mess, and now NDSU, USD, SDSU is stuck in that conference (whats left of it) while other conferences are picking and choosing which schools to take from it, and the SL will soon be the next version of the GWC for start up schools. Oakland will most likely leave and that will put the SL below the minimum for an auto-bid in baseball. Omaha doesn't count until they are full DI members (2015 or 2016). I think the SU's best hope is the Big Sky (USD blew their shot). That is BSC for Olympic sports as I can't see them moving from the MVFC.

[MplsBison]

NCAA isn't taking any auto's from any conference that has at least 7 DI members. They'd give Summit a waiver to wait for Omaha.

But you're right, if Oakland leaves (in addition to Indy and Fort Wayne, that is) then the Summit is hurting. But where would Oakland go?


You'd need Detroit to leave (for A10?) and then Oakland replaces them in the Horizon. Doesn't sound reasonable to me right now.

[RabidRabbit]

Why do most posters think that the Summit's about to be picked apart? It could be that if Youngstown St. went east to join say, the A-10 or CAA, that the Horizon gets into deep doo-doo.

Likewise, if the Summit were to add three adjacent football playing schools (UNC, UND, EIU), it becomes the Summit League Football conference with MVC members as associates. UALR has toyed with moving to the Summit if kicked out of Sunbelt for not sponsoring FB. Summit League has shed more weak members (Centenary, UMKC, Chicago St.) than strong members (Valpo, Oral Roberts), while bringing in some strong, state supported schools + Denver. Starting to get a North Central feel again, but anyway sliced, the 4 Dakota schools really need to be in one conference for travel convenience. I would make case that for the Olympic sports, the 4 schools in Colorado, not named Buffs, should be in a conference together.

But it's all about the $$$$, and any other issue, like travel logistics, don't come into play.

[MplsBison]

I disagree with your last point.

I definitely think Oakland, Fort Wayne and Indy would all be very happy to join the Horizon League and get away from the I-29 + Denver crew in the Summit.

[Laker]

I disagree with your last point.

I definitely think Oakland, Fort Wayne and Indy would all be very happy to join the Horizon League and get away from the I-29 + Denver crew in the Summit.

Question for anyone- why did Denver go from the WAC to the Summit and UMKC go from the Summit to the WAC? Geographically it doesn't make sense.

[NDB]

The WAC payed the summit league exit fee...

Think of the WAC as the love struck boyfriend who bailed out his ugly girlfriend who now plans to whore herself out to the highest paying John.

And the girlfriend is actually a kangaroo.

(this would make a great movie).

[superman7515]

Looks like Davidson is heading to the A-10.

http://realignmentblog.com/2013/04/16/report-davidson-to-leave-socon-for-a-10/


According to Jeff Goodman at CBS Sports, Davidson College is closing in on a move from the Southern Conference to the Atlantic Ten Conference. Davidson has had much success in men’s basketball, having won the SoCon championship 5 of the last 8 years, and making a memorable NCAA tournament run in 2008, coming a 2-point loss to Kansas away from the Final Four. This year’s team looked to be on their way to an upset of #3 seed Marquette before falling to one of the hardest-luck comebacks of the tournament, 59-58.

This could be seen, and has been seen by others, as a bit of a gamble, and indeed it is. The travel costs will certainly increase (Samford and Chattanooga are a lot closer than UMass and Saint Louis, or St. Bonaventure if the Billikens take off as expected), and the competition will be much stiffer, but sometimes that’s the risk you have to take. Staying in the SoCon, Davidson will always be a double-digit seed, having to run a tougher gauntlet to make a statement on the national stage. The top four teams in the A-10 this year all made #9 or higher. (And yes, Butler and Temple are already leaving and Saint Louis was rumored to be leaving as recently as the last paragraph I just wrote. So sue me.) High risk, high reward, but chances like this don’t come around all the time, and if it all crumbles, I’m sure the SoCon or another conference would welcome them back.


http://www.elonpendulum.com/2013/04/southern-conference-realignment-part-2/


Before you start reading, I promise that this piece is significantly shorter than the first one. It is merely an update to some new information. That information? The Davidson College Wildcats are likely to join the Atlantic 10 Conference. The Wildcats were what kept the idea of the Southern Conference alive. The league knew that even with the loss of football powers Appalachian State University and Georgia Southern University it could build a basketball core around Davidson. That, my friends, is now impossible.

Do you know who really is in trouble? Elon University. Davidson was a key private school ally of Elon and a future rival in basketball. Now, Elon is left in a crumbling conference that seems to have a power shift in favor of the public schools.

[Laker]

Looks like Davidson is heading to the A-10.

http://realignmentblog.com/2013/04/16/report-davidson-to-leave-socon-for-a-10/

http://www.elonpendulum.com/2013/04/southern-conference-realignment-part-2/

What will happen to Davidson football???

[chargeradio]

Davidson will stay in the Pioneer League-they didn't play SoCon football.

SoCon was rumored to be looking at Mercer (PFL), Kennesaw State (scholarship start-up), ETSU (ditto), and VMI (Big South). If they take all four this could be a problem for the Big South as they would be down to six with Liberty looking for an FBS home.

[Thundar]

Davidson will stay in the Pioneer League-they didn't play SoCon football.

SoCon was rumored to be looking at Mercer (PFL), Kennesaw State (scholarship start-up), ETSU (ditto), and VMI (Big South). If they take all four this could be a problem for the Big South as they would be down to six with Liberty looking for an FBS home.

Liberty isn't going to FBS

[ASUMountaineer]

What will happen to Davidson football???

Davidson couldn't care less.

[danefan]

How long before Elon to the CAA is announced?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Anyone who doubted me about the Big East wanting Air Force in the worst way...

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/mwest/2013/05/01/mountain-west-turnaround/2127851/


Though realignment has now settled down a bit, the Falcons might have been the linchpin in keeping the Mountain West together during some turbulent times the past few years. Beginning in the fall of 2011, Air Force had serious discussions with the Big East over the course of a year as the league pursued a strategy of western expansion for football. Though Boise State and San Diego State jumped, Air Force ultimately decided to stay put due to superintendent Lt. Gen Michael Gould's concerns about the move and an inability to find a suitable conference for its non-football sports.

That also seems to be why Navy was on-board with joining the Big East in football, too, IMO. With Navy and AFA in the Big East, Army would have had little choice but to seriously consider joining. Then the AAC could have been the AFC, the Armed Forces conference, with the CoC trophy all within its confines.


At that point, with instability crushing the conference, the Big East was unable to attract more western teams, and Boise State negotiated a return to the Mountain West. San Diego State quickly followed suit and the Big East – now rebranded as the American Athletic Conference – abandoned its western expansion plans.

Those around the Mountain West, however, will quietly admit now that had Air Force joined the Big East as well back in 2011, the dominoes could have fallen a different way. Instead of Boise State and San Diego State going back, there might have been enough strength to attract a couple more Western schools to replace Rutgers and Louisville.

Instead, the Mountain West has re-formed and recovered with the focus shifting from expansion to how it can best position itself for the new playoff era.

One problem with AFA seems to have been the rest of their sports. They didn't want to be in the WAC or Big Sky in men's hoops, nor, evidently, the Big West. USMA and USNA have the PL for the rest of their sports, which allows them to stay regional for non-revenue sports yet still travel from revenue sports like hoops and (increasingly) lacrosse.

Was it that AFA choked on Aresco's leadership and their conference strategy, or was it really because the AFA didn't want to join the Big West in all the other sports? That's something for the historians to figure out. But it's worth mentioning that this was a lot closer to happening, for the reasons I stated, than anyone gave credit for.

You also don't have to be Nostradamus to see that Navy will be bolting on the next available ship out of their AAC commitment.

[MplsBison]

This was already discussed before (perhaps in this very thread), but Navy Football has nothing to lose and everything to gain by playing in and winning the AAC.

[Laker]

Was it that AFA choked on Aresco's leadership and their conference strategy, or was it really because the AFA didn't want to join the Big West in all the other sports? That's something for the historians to figure out. But it's worth mentioning that this was a lot closer to happening, for the reasons I stated, than anyone gave credit for.

You also don't have to be Nostradamus to see that Navy will be bolting on the next available ship out of their AAC commitment.

I'm guessing more the having all sports in the same conference helped Air Force. I didn't realize that they were that close to jumping ship- or in the MWC's case, off of the cliff.

I still think that Air Force should be in the WCHA for hockey. That would make more sense because of their location.

[DFW HOYA]

Anyone who doubted me about the Big East wanting Air Force in the worst way...


Yes, the Big East wanted AFA in football to tie in with a western flank of Boise State, San Diego State and possibly one more down the road (Fresno St or UNLV) but AFA was closely liked to their old WAC (now MWC) allies. when Bpise wavered, that was the signal for AFA to back away. Army had no intention of joining due to their miserable experience in Conference USA.

The problem the now AAC has is that, excepting UConn and Temple, they've brought the old C-USA back together, which is not altogether welcomed at all the schools (read=Memphis and Cincinnati). Just as there were regional tensions in the Big East (then, and going forward), the commitment of the AAC to its eastern schools is worth following down the road, esp. if UConn remains shut out of the ACC.

So what's the future of the Big East and football after July 1? (Hint: there's only three of them, along with three more on another level altogether.)

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/05/football-big-east-part-1.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, the Big East wanted AFA in football to tie in with a western flank of Boise State, San Diego State and possibly one more down the road (Fresno St or UNLV) but AFA was closely liked to their old WAC (now MWC) allies. when Bpise wavered, that was the signal for AFA to back away. Army had no intention of joining due to their miserable experience in Conference USA.

The problem the now AAC has is that, excepting UConn and Temple, they've brought the old C-USA back together, which is not altogether welcomed at all the schools (read=Memphis and Cincinnati). Just as there were regional tensions in the Big East (then, and going forward), the commitment of the AAC to its eastern schools is worth following down the road, esp. if UConn remains shut out of the ACC.

So what's the future of the Big East and football after July 1? (Hint: there's only three of them, along with three more on another level altogether.)

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/05/football-big-east-part-1.html

Great post, DFW. I'll really be looking forward to Part 2. I've often wondered why Xavier, Marquette and DePaul haven't thought more seriously about PFL football. In particular Marquette used to have a very strong team, and if memory serves me right there were riots when they discontinued the program.

[MplsBison]

I'm guessing more the having all sports in the same conference helped Air Force. I didn't realize that they were that close to jumping ship- or in the MWC's case, off of the cliff.

I still think that Air Force should be in the WCHA for hockey. That would make more sense because of their location.

The WCHA makes more sense that Atlantic Hockey, for sure. No idea why Air Force is there, probably to be with Army.

But really the NCHC would be the best fir for Air Force with Denver, Colorado College and Omaha right there.

[MplsBison]

Yes, the Big East wanted AFA in football to tie in with a western flank of Boise State, San Diego State and possibly one more down the road (Fresno St or UNLV) but AFA was closely liked to their old WAC (now MWC) allies. when Bpise wavered, that was the signal for AFA to back away. Army had no intention of joining due to their miserable experience in Conference USA.

The problem the now AAC has is that, excepting UConn and Temple, they've brought the old C-USA back together, which is not altogether welcomed at all the schools (read=Memphis and Cincinnati). Just as there were regional tensions in the Big East (then, and going forward), the commitment of the AAC to its eastern schools is worth following down the road, esp. if UConn remains shut out of the ACC.

So what's the future of the Big East and football after July 1? (Hint: there's only three of them, along with three more on another level altogether.)

http://georgetownfootball.blogspot.com/2013/05/football-big-east-part-1.html

Nova, Gtown, Butler joined by Marquette, DePaul and Xavier as a non-scholarship FCS conference?

So that's acceptable to you, but not the Pioneer League? Interesting.

[DFW HOYA]

Great post, DFW. I'll really be looking forward to Part 2. I've often wondered why Xavier, Marquette and DePaul haven't thought more seriously about PFL football. In particular Marquette used to have a very strong team, and if memory serves me right there were riots when they discontinued the program.

DePaul is an interesting case. It would seem the least likely program to emerge given its lack of history, but a team debuts this fall. Sadly, the football traditions at St. John's and Seton Hall seem to be all but extinguished at this point.

http://www.depauliaonline.com/sports/football-at-depaul-1.2977051


Nova, Gtown, Butler joined by Marquette, DePaul and Xavier as a non-scholarship FCS conference? So that's acceptable to you, but not the Pioneer League? Interesting.

Nothing of the sort. I was writing about a non-conference scheduling arrangement among the three I-AA schools, NOT a conference. The club teams are a different subject altogether.

[Laker]

The WCHA makes more sense that Atlantic Hockey, for sure. No idea why Air Force is there, probably to be with Army.

But really the NCHC would be the best fir for Air Force with Denver, Colorado College and Omaha right there.

I thought about the NCHC but the Cadet Ice Arena is a 2,502-seat hockey rink built in 1968. That might be a major factor.

[darell1976]

I thought about the NCHC but the Cadet Ice Arena is a 2,502-seat hockey rink built in 1968. That might be a major factor.

Plus we are reserving a spot for that Minnesota school from southern Minnesota.;)

[MplsBison]

Western Mich and Miami Ohio's ice arenas aren't exactly huge. How did those two teams get in??

[Laker]

Plus we are reserving a spot for that Minnesota school from southern Minnesota.;) :D


Western Mich and Miami Ohio's ice arenas aren't exactly huge. How did those two teams get in??

Excellent question. I was hoping that my green clad northern neighbor had been right about MSU-Mankato being in the mix but unfortunately not.

School Arena Built Capacity
Colorado College World Arena 1998 7,750
Denver Magness Arena 1999 6,026
Miami Goggin Ice Center 2006 3,200
Minnesota-Duluth AMSOIL Arena 2010 6,732
North Dakota Ralph Engelstad Arena 2001 11,640
Nebraska-Omaha CenturyLink Center 2003 16,500
St. Cloud State National Hockey Center 1989 5,763
Western Michigan Lawson Arena 1974 3,667

[ccd494]

Miami's arena is brand new, plus they are pouring resources into the sport.

WMU begged, pleaded, cajoled, etc. to get themselves in, and were only invited when Notre Dame peaced out and headed to the East.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Horizon League is now down to an 8-team, compact, great lakes conference:

Green Bay - Milkwaukee
Ill Chicago - Valpo (just outside Chicago)
Detroit
Wright St (Dayton, OH)
Cleveland St - Youngstown St

If I'm the Horizon League, I invite both IU-PU schools. Fort Wayne for Detroit and Indy for Wright. Also gives you some market presence in both of those markets. True that Valpo is an Indiana school technically, they're pretty close to Chicago.

This assumes Oakland would not be invited due to already having Detroit.

Oakland appears to be headed to the Horizon League to replace Loyola (IL):

http://www.grandforksherald.com/event/article/id/262919/


Several reports say Oakland University will join that group and take a spot in the Horizon League soon — a move that Oakland has publicly wanted for a decade.

If Oakland does leave, the Summit is down to eight teams. With the remaining squads surely looking at other opportunities, it doesn’t leave the league in a strong position.

Is the Summit ready to break apart? The writer seems to think NDSU should join UND in the Big Sky.

[Laker]

Is the Summit ready to break apart? The writer seems to think NDSU should join UND in the Big Sky.

Would the Big Sky think about taking NDSU and the two South Dakota schools, or would that be too many teams? You could darn near have an eastern division if you put all of the old NCC schools in it.

[darell1976]

http://www.anygivensaturday.com/showthread.php?132089-Big-Sky-should-look-toward-NDSU

[Lehigh Football Nation]

An interesting summary on CBS's website, even if it does involve some reporters interviewing each other:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/22211977/left-behind-in-realignment-cincy-uconn-and-usf-face-scarce-options


It wasn't UConn's Northeast footprint or its 21st national ranking among public universities that lost it. The lack of football tradition and game-day environment at Rentschler Field (capacity 40,000) did, according to an ACC source. Cincinnati president Santa J. Ono sending holiday cards to ACC presidents illustrated the Bearcats' zeal for playing up. But the Bearcats ran into similar problems as UConn. USF has a place in this conversation, too. The Bulls were among four teams to talk with the ACC early in the replacement process in November, but the Bulls' chances weren't promising.

...

The ACC has 14 1/2 members and would have added two more only if it had to (it doesn't -- not anymore). The Big 12 is content splitting revenue 10 ways.

The Big Ten would have one reason to at least examine old Big East schools if it hasn't already -- to give Penn State, Maryland and Rutgers another East Coast friend. But Ohio State already covers the Cincinnati market. And does the Big Ten need the Hartford area? It's uncertain whether these teams add value to a conference already corralling $25.7 million per school annually.

The AAC doesn't have a grant of rights, instead opting for a $10 million exit fee policy with 27 months notice required. Under traditional media rights deals (ACC and Big 12 with ESPN), candidates generally must provide equal or greater value than current members to be considered. It's unlikely UConn, Cincinnati and USF present enough to justify a bigger membership and more scheduling conflicts.

The Big Ten could handle the inventory because of its 24-hour network, but Big Ten commissioner Jim Delany has acknowledged the ACC's grant of rights slows realignment. That doesn't mean it subjugates expansion forever. If the pools open, these three should be stretching from the 10-meter board.

I don't believe that ACC source for a second, by the way, that a "lack of gameday atmosphere in football" sank UConn's chances - as if Louisville is all that in gameday experience! - it's much more likely there was some combination of wanting to stick it to UConn, perhaps the whiff of NCAA violations around Calhoun, and (wait for it) the fact that BC wants no part of UConn being in the same league as them. Lousiville provided just about the same benefits, without any of the other thorny issues.

In any event, Cincy, UConn, and USF (and Temple, too) don't have much choice but to hemorrhage money in the new arrangement and hope realignment continues apace. Furthermore, I sometimes wonder if Temple might even leapfrog over these three schools for ACC membership if they re-up with the Linc for football. I'm still not convinced UConn is first on the speed dial if the Big 10 gets more ACC schools - a more real scenario than these poker players care to reveal at this moment.

[aceinthehole]

I don't believe that ACC source for a second, by the way, that a "lack of gameday atmosphere in football" sank UConn's chances - as if Louisville is all that in gameday experience! - it's much more likely there was some combination of wanting to stick it to UConn, perhaps the whiff of NCAA violations around Calhoun, and (wait for it) the fact that BC wants no part of UConn being in the same league as them. Lousiville provided just about the same benefits, without any of the other thorny issues.

I think it is fair to say that many factors, including ALL of the ones you mentioned (poor game day experience, low basketball APR scores, NCAA investigations, Jim Calhoun, Hartford TV market, BC envy, etc), had some part in putting Louisville ahead of UConn in the last ACC expansion.

No one, and I mean no one, can identify with specificity what single factor ultimately led ACC president to approve L'ville instead of UConn - because it doesn't exsits - there were many factors that combined led to this result.

[MplsBison]

The prime movers in expansion, like always are the B1G and SEC. I previously thought it was a certainty that Virginia and Georgia Tech would move to the Big Ten, perhaps boosting total revenue to $30million per school.

But now I have no idea how the new ACC deal works with that. Those schools both signed up for that as well as the $50 million exit fee.

Would both schools fight both of those things in court if they receive invitations from the B1G? Moreover, why would the B1G even send invitations (publicly at least) with such uncertainties?


I suppose some of this rests upon the outcome of Maryland having to pay the $50 million to the ACC or not, but I thought their entire legal argument was based on the idea that they didn't sign that agreement. If Virginia and GT did sign it, seems like they'd have to pay up.


If there is no more movement by the B1G and SEC, then major expansion is done and there are no more spots open at the top.

[DFW HOYA]

I think it is fair to say that many factors, including ALL of the ones you mentioned (poor game day experience, low basketball APR scores, NCAA investigations, Jim Calhoun, Hartford TV market, BC envy, etc), had some part in putting Louisville ahead of UConn in the last ACC expansion.

Add one factor conferences really like: Louisville is a cash cow. The Cardinals had $87 million in revenues in 2012 ($42 million from basketball thanks to NCAA performance and a remarkable lease at KFC Yum Center that is the equivalent of a blank check for UL basketball) and a concerted effort to build new facilities in nearly every sport. Gone are the days playing in Commonwealth Stadium or Freedom Hall--the oldest major facility is only 15 years old.

And stadium size matters, too--Papa John's Cardinal Stadium is a pro-style facility, seats 55K, averages 95% capacity, and has helped redevelop the area. Renschler Field at UConn was built on the cheap, might seat 40K on a good day and the only development around it is a Cabela's tackle shop in the parking lot.

[MplsBison]

No kidding.

As a complete outsider to the CT area....it seems like a no brainer to me. Louisville has a brand spanking new, top of the line basketball arena (perhaps even by NBA standards???) that the national champion Cardinals play in downtown Louisville. They have a big football stadium that was just recently renovated, along with comparable practice facilities to the very nice ones at UConn.

Many other new, nice facilities as well. Having sugar daddies like YUM brands and Papa John's doesn't hurt in that regard!

For crying out loud, how many schools in the nation have entire, separate stadiums for lacrosse, field hockey and soccer?? I wonder if there are any others...


About the only possible advantages I can see for UConn over Louisville would be academics and market...if you're talking getting a piece of NYC.

[ccd494]

For crying out loud, how many schools in the nation have entire, separate stadiums for lacrosse, field hockey and soccer?? I wonder if there are any others...

Most of the ACC, frankly.

[MplsBison]

Most of the ACC, frankly.

????

Only 4 ACC teams compete in men's lacrosse and just spot checking Virginia, they have a turf field and then a single stadium for both soccer and lacrosse.

So I'm just going to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

[UAalum72]

Albany did thru 2011. The soccer field was buried under the multi-sport stadium, which will host both soccer and football.

Though calling the field hockey, lacrosse, and soccer venues 'stadiums' is a stretch.

[ccd494]

????

Only 4 ACC teams compete in men's lacrosse and just spot checking Virginia, they have a turf field and then a single stadium for both soccer and lacrosse.

So I'm just going to assume you don't know what you're talking about.

Wake Forest, for one, has a soccer stadium, a field hockey stadium, and a separate field for its (club) lacrosse team, if we are just picking random schools here.

[MplsBison]

Wake Forest, for one, has a soccer stadium, a field hockey stadium, and a separate field for its (club) lacrosse team, if we are just picking random schools here.

Right, like I said only four ACC schools compete in lacrosse. Wake Forest is not one of them.

Not really that big of a deal. I'm just saying the fact that Louisville has separate stadiums, with single sport specific lined fields, for varsity teams in soccer, lacrosse and field hockey shows you how committed they are to building facilities. Most schools combine facilities at some level for non-revenue sports.

That is all.

[Bogus Megapardus]

For crying out loud, how many schools in the nation have entire, separate stadiums for lacrosse, field hockey and soccer??

Aside from the Ivy and Patriot, of course, where it is almost a given . . .

[Go...gate]

Aside from the Ivy and Patriot, of course, where it is almost a given . . .

Not to mention the NESCAC.

[danefan]

Aside from the Ivy and Patriot, of course, where it is almost a given . . .

Albany will, except soccer will play in the football stadium (political move to be able to call it a "multi-purpose stadium".

Btw, field hockey has to be played on old turf, not field turfmen so most schools have separate facilities.

And this isn't a positive quality for a school like Albany. There is zero reason lacrosse needs its own stadium. That money should have been spent on a larger multi-use stadium earlier.

[MplsBison]

True, for those few schools that actually play field hockey as a varsity sport - you need old style "Astroturf", which therefore warrants a sport-specific field/stadium.

But many schools only have one stadium for sports that use a rectangular field: football, soccer and lacrosse. And for those schools that do split the non-revenue sports off, very few have an actually separate, sport-specific lined fields/stadiums for lacrosse and soccer. That's what I was getting at - it's unusual to see that.


Spot checking the Ivy and Patriot:

Bucknell

I was confused at first, but in looking at the satellite pictures now I get it. They have single "double sided" stadium with a field on either side. A bit of a cost saving measure, I guess. The astroturf field is lined for both field hockey and lacrosse while the grass field is lined only for soccer. They also have a football stadium that men's lacrosse plays in (though I don't see any lines for lacrosse). Love the track colors, by the way!

Dartmouth

There are legit separate stadiums for everything: football, soccer, lacrosse and field hockey (although the turf field literally looks like just a turf field where you can stand around and watch, if you want). The soccer and lacrosse stadiums appear to be very similar, both with about 1600 capacity. Perhaps the only difference is grass vs. new style turf. Seems like a waste not to combine them, but as they see fit. Maybe it's one of those snooty soccer things where they will only play on real grass?

[Nova09]

I could be wrong because I haven't collected any data on the subject, but my gut says more schools (at least in the northeast) combine lax/fh on the same surface and have a separate, often natural grass field for soccer than combine soccer/lax. I know that's what Villanova does (lax/fh both play in Villanova Stadium, same place football plays)

[MplsBison]

But from what I understand of the sports, that seems opposite of what needs to be done.

Field Hockey needs a smooth surface for the ball to roll - therefore needs old style "Astroturf".

Soccer and lacrosse can be played on either grass or new style turf, therefore could easily be combined into a single field - along with football.


Why a field hockey ball can't roll well on grass or new style turf, but a soccer ball can - I have no idea, I've never played these sports.

[DFW HOYA]

Why a field hockey ball can't roll well on grass or new style turf, but a soccer ball can - I have no idea, I've never played these sports.

One can certainly play field hockey on grass but the sport is built around a hard Astroturf surface that is kept wet so the ball can move across the field.

Of concern for the Big East going forward: only three schools sponsor field hockey.

[HailSzczur]

Why a field hockey ball can't roll well on grass or new style turf, but a soccer ball can - I have no idea, I've never played these sports.

I follow the MLS closely and I've seen my fair share of turf/grass pitch battles when it comes to soccer. Point of its, turf is fine, as long as its not just green stuff over cement. Vancouver, Portland, and others have turf and it plays fine. Places like Gillette however play differently because football teams like hard, flat turf.

The difference is ball control. The game was invented and is primarily played on grass. A ball behaves one way on grass, it bounces a certain way and it rolls to a stop in different ways. If a ball on turf behaves like a ball on grass then you have nothing to worry about. If it doesn't you're going to have injuries. Sure some of the injures are from sliding and falling on a hard surface, but most come from the ball getting away from players. Players dribbling at full speed often find the ball getting away from them on bad turf, and make sudden movements to try and compensate, or players end up in more tackles or collisions as they chase down lose balls. Some players like Theirry Henry tend to sit out games on turf for these reason. MLS.com actually put out a really interesting article about Turf as the future of American Soccer.
How artificial turf could change the future of soccer in North America (http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/05/02/how-artificial-turf-could-change-future-soccer-north-america-word)

I can only speculate that field hockey is okay on turf because since they are hitting the ball with sticks a little difference in the play isn't really putting anyone in harms way

[UAalum72]

Why a field hockey ball can't roll well on grass or new style turf, but a soccer ball can - I have no idea, I've never played these sports.
A soccer ball is much larger so the height of the grass doesn't affect it as much - think of a golf ball on the green compared to the first cut of the rough.

[GannonFan]

I follow the MLS closely and I've seen my fair share of turf/grass pitch battles when it comes to soccer. Point of its, turf is fine, as long as its not just green stuff over cement. Vancouver, Portland, and others have turf and it plays fine. Places like Gillette however play differently because football teams like hard, flat turf.

The difference is ball control. The game was invented and is primarily played on grass. A ball behaves one way on grass, it bounces a certain way and it rolls to a stop in different ways. If a ball on turf behaves like a ball on grass then you have nothing to worry about. If it doesn't you're going to have injuries. Sure some of the injures are from sliding and falling on a hard surface, but most come from the ball getting away from players. Players dribbling at full speed often find the ball getting away from them on bad turf, and make sudden movements to try and compensate, or players end up in more tackles or collisions as they chase down lose balls. Some players like Theirry Henry tend to sit out games on turf for these reason. MLS.com actually put out a really interesting article about Turf as the future of American Soccer.
How artificial turf could change the future of soccer in North America (http://www.mlssoccer.com/news/article/2013/05/02/how-artificial-turf-could-change-future-soccer-north-america-word)

I can only speculate that field hockey is okay on turf because since they are hitting the ball with sticks a little difference in the play isn't really putting anyone in harms way

Generally agree. The other big thing is that in soccer, it is expected that the ball will be in the air quite a lot and therefore how it bounces is of paramount importance. Playing on a grass like surface, or grass itself, and the ball will only bounce so much. Play on carpeted concrete and the ball is bouncing like a super ball all game. It's a reason why there's an indoor version of soccer called futsal where they play with a smaller, heavier ball - just to cut down on the bouncing effect. In field hockey, the ball is generally not off the ground for very long and by the nature of the ball itself, doesn't bounce very much anyway. That's why they like the old astroturf over the new fake grass - the ball rolls very true on carpeted concrete. In addition, field hockey players using sticks tends to kick up a lot of the crap that serves as fill in the new turf fields - you don't get that with carpeted concrete.

[MplsBison]

Yeah but these poor chicks must have no skin left on their legs after 4 years of that!

Is there no checking/slide tackling/I have no idea in collegiate field hockey?

[HailSzczur]

Yeah but these poor chicks must have no skin left on their legs after 4 years of that!

Is there no checking/slide tackling/I have no idea in collegiate field hockey?

That's a good question. Only women's sports I've frequented in my two years on campus are Bball and Volleyball so I'm no help there. I can't even pretend to know what I'm talking about.

[ccd494]

Yeah but these poor chicks must have no skin left on their legs after 4 years of that!

Is there no checking/slide tackling/I have no idea in collegiate field hockey?

No. You cannot go to the ground in field hockey, except the goalie, who is dressed like she is in the Hurt Locker dismantling IEDs.

[MplsBison]

ccd -- thank you for that. That made me laugh out loud this morning.

The funny thing is: contrast that with lacrosse! The goalie in that sport is some poor a__hole dressed exactly like every other player (shorts and a t-shirt) ...standing in the goal getting a hard little ball slammed at blazing speed toward him/her! And the chicks in that sport only wear these stupid little goggles!


Gee whiz...you folks out east have some weird sports.

[clickclack]

No. You cannot go to the ground in field hockey, except the goalie, who is dressed like she is in the Hurt Locker dismantling IEDs.


I was thinking more like Optimus Prime...

17700

[Go Green]

Apologies if this has already been addressed by DFW, but...

... how can DePaul extract such sweetheart arena deals from Chicago but Georgetown can't from DC?

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/05/30/the-obvious-lunacy-of-depauls-new-arena-plan/?sct=hp_wr_a3&eref=sihp

[GannonFan]

ccd -- thank you for that. That made me laugh out loud this morning.

The funny thing is: contrast that with lacrosse! The goalie in that sport is some poor a__hole dressed exactly like every other player (shorts and a t-shirt) ...standing in the goal getting a hard little ball slammed at blazing speed toward him/her! And the chicks in that sport only wear these stupid little goggles!


Gee whiz...you folks out east have some weird sports.

Actually just saw this - the goalies in lacrosse actually do wear a fair amount of padding that the field players don't wear - they have chest protectors and padded pants (well, down to above the knee) as well, along with bigger gloves, a throat protector, and often a different helmet. Aside from having their shins exposed (and in indoor lacrosse the goalies do wear shin protectors) lacross goalies are as similarly protected as catchers in baseball.

[MplsBison]

Apologies if this has already been addressed by DFW, but...

... how can DePaul extract such sweetheart arena deals from Chicago but Georgetown can't from DC?

http://college-basketball.si.com/2013/05/30/the-obvious-lunacy-of-depauls-new-arena-plan/?sct=hp_wr_a3&eref=sihp

Probably has to do with the fact that Chicago is huge and therefore has tons of money. Also DC is a federal town and so probably doesn't have a ton of money to spend on things like arenas if they aren't mostly privately financed.

[MplsBison]

Actually just saw this - the goalies in lacrosse actually do wear a fair amount of padding that the field players don't wear - they have chest protectors and padded pants (well, down to above the knee) as well, along with bigger gloves, a throat protector, and often a different helmet. Aside from having their shins exposed (and in indoor lacrosse the goalies do wear shin protectors) lacross goalies are as similarly protected as catchers in baseball.

Well I hope that also includes a cup!

Also, an obvious difference from baseball is that the catcher generally knows exactly where the ball is going (at least in as much as he doesn't have to leave a squatting stance).

[Laker]

SI grades the major schools in realignment:

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daATZ?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=college-football

[MplsBison]

SI grades the major schools in realignment:

http://bleacherreport.com/tb/daATZ?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=newsletter&utm_campaign=college-football

And the Big East gets, rightfully, bashed to bits.

[DFW HOYA]

The article correctly noted that TCU made out great with the move to the Big 12.

Of course, it ignored all the other moves in I-A, because as far as the media is concerned, it doesn't matter.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The article correctly noted that TCU made out great with the move to the Big 12.

Of course, it ignored all the other moves in I-A, because as far as the media is concerned, it doesn't matter.

Boise who?

[MplsBison]

LFN is like that guy who's a fan of a single A minor league baseball team and then attends a triple A minor league baseball game just so he can heckle the guy who used to play for his team, then worked his way up the ladder, was called up to the big leagues but then sent back down to triple A.

"HA! You moron! Thought you were going to go to the big leagues! Look at you now, in triple A! What an idiot!"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=7050

The Jersey Guy is not too happy that the New Big East doesn't have a commissioner a mere two weeks before becoming a new conference.


Led by Georgetown President John DeGoia, the Big East continues its “search” for a commissioner to run a league which will be open for business on July 1–that would be 2013, not 2014.

Yet, there is still no word as DeGoia and his band of the 9 Lemmings who also occupy the role of Presidents of the other Big East schools ponder who should lead them.

In case you were wondering here’s one definition of lemmings: a member of a crowd with no originality or voice of their own.

This is an amazing group, so they should be acknowledged.

DePaul: Rev Dennis Holtschneider, C.M.
Marquette: Scott Pilarz S.J.
Providence: Rev. Brian Shanley O.P.\
St. John’s: Vacant (an improvement perhaps on Rev. Donald J. Harrington, C.M. who retired, resigned
Seton Hall: Dr. A. Gabriel Esteban
Villanova: Rev. Peter M. Donohue O.S.A.
Xavier: Father Michael Graham, S.J.
Butler: James M Danko
Creighton: Tim R. Lannon S.J.

And there is of course, DeGoia, the brilliant lemming-meister, who is leading this group through the process–which is now into its 6th month–in searching for a “leader” to guide the new Big East into a world without football calling the shots.

"This group may be brilliant in how they run their universities, but in terms of athletic management skills, it is tough battle between arrogance and ignorance." Ouch! He reserves some bad words for the AAC folks as well, but acknowledges that with UConn and SMU's presidents whispering in the commissioners' ear, they're in better shape.

Could it be that the AAC turns out better than the new Big East? I guess we'll see in the next few weeks.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting piece came out in regards to TV influence in collegiate realignment:

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/jeremy-fowler/22636805/in-big-money-marriage-between-tv-and-college-football-who-has-most-say

It goes into a lot of detail on Pitt and Syracuse leaving for the Big East. A good piece, but one I felt fell far short of being great because it really stopped short of showing the depth and breadth of influence of TV in realignment. Furthermore, it came to the exact wrong conclusion re: ESPN, Pitt and Syracuse.

My analysis is here:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2013/07/special-privileges-for-tv-in.html

[DFW HOYA]

The sheer amount of deception in that article by all parties is remarkable. Other than the candid quote by the BC athletic director, everything else is subject to abject suspicion.

No one wants to say it, but ESPN was dupliticious in desabilizing the Big East membership to make the NBC Sports offer worthless.. Why? Because they had a right of first refusal. It's like having rights to a property you don't want to pay millions for, so instead you burn down the house and pick it up, literally, at fire sale prices. The original ESPN offer of $130 million a year dropped to $20 million. They saved over $100 million a year by making the Big East name far less valuable.

What ESPN didn't expect was a) that Fox scooped up the other half of the conference, because as a new corporate entity there was no rights of first refusal clause that would have existed had these schools simply chased the football schools off, and b) the AAC sold the brand, which was worth much more to these schools than the AAC understood.

But ESPN is back to its old tricks. This is, in part, why ESPN has been increasingly vocal about the ACC "owning" the NYC market and should, by right, have its tournament at Madison Square Garden, despite the fact that the Big East is otherwise contractually committed to it through 2026.

Coverage of the AAC schools will be "Conference USA-ized" by ESPN going forward. They got the schools they wanted reassigned to the league they wanted, and the rest are disposable.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To support your point:


"We've never considered it our place to make specific direction or make specific recommendations to anything," ESPN senior vice president of college sports programming Burke Magnus said. "Nobody has ever come to us and said, 'I'm going to give you three schools, which two are the best?'"

This is demonstrably untrue. Unless you believe in 2010 ESPN had nothing to do with 1) saving the Big XII and 2) creating the Longhorn Network.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No one wants to say it, but ESPN was dupliticious in desabilizing the Big East membership to make the NBC Sports offer worthless.. Why? Because they had a right of first refusal. It's like having rights to a property you don't want to pay millions for, so instead you burn down the house and pick it up, literally, at fire sale prices. The original ESPN offer of $130 million a year dropped to $20 million. They saved over $100 million a year by making the Big East name far less valuable.

Too true. All you need to see is the following:

ESPN - pool of schools to broadcast in the ACC and Big East --> same. You can assume similar ad rates will apply. Same sets of fans and eyeballs.

Cost of Big East TV rights - reduced by $100 million

Cost of ACC TV rights - increased by X, locked in for long period of time, but less than the $100 million of savings.

Also:


Take (ACC Commish John) Swofford. He has his consultant, Jordan in his war room in regards to realignment. Are we to expect that Jordan had no contact with TV executives, even though he's a television consultant? Of course not.

Furthermore, even though the TV executives might not know everything that goes on in the war room, just the questions asked by consultants would likely reveal a boatload of information. For example, if Jordan is going to ESPN and asking, "How much TV revenue might we get the Syracuse and Pittsburgh TV markets?" ESPN would have to be morons to not know who's in play.

And remember, ESPN would be getting information from the Big East "media consultants" too - asking similar questions from the other side. Not revealing information the knew, too, would play a huge part.

Let's take this a step further. Wouldn't it be extremely easy for ESPN to manipulate the answers to guide the conferences into making decisions?

What if ESPN told the ACC consultant "Pittsburgh is the best market in the world, you'd get $1 billion per year and you'd be rich," and they make their decision based on that false information. And then turned around and told the Big East consultant, "Don't worry, nobody would want Pitt, their market is crap?"

At a bare minimum ESPN was aware of what the ACC was trying to do, and didn't inform the Big East. As I mention, not saying anything is just as important as saying anything.

[NDB]

The sheer amount of deception in that article by all parties is remarkable. Other than the candid quote by the BC athletic director, everything else is subject to abject suspicion.

No one wants to say it, but ESPN was dupliticious in desabilizing the Big East membership to make the NBC Sports offer worthless.. Why? Because they had a right of first refusal. It's like having rights to a property you don't want to pay millions for, so instead you burn down the house and pick it up, literally, at fire sale prices. The original ESPN offer of $130 million a year dropped to $20 million. They saved over $100 million a year by making the Big East name far less valuable.

What ESPN didn't expect was a) that Fox scooped up the other half of the conference, because as a new corporate entity there was no rights of first refusal clause that would have existed had these schools simply chased the football schools off, and b) the AAC sold the brand, which was worth much more to these schools than the AAC understood.

But ESPN is back to its old tricks. This is, in part, why ESPN has been increasingly vocal about the ACC "owning" the NYC market and should, by right, have its tournament at Madison Square Garden, despite the fact that the Big East is otherwise contractually committed to it through 2026.

Coverage of the AAC schools will be "Conference USA-ized" by ESPN going forward. They got the schools they wanted reassigned to the league they wanted, and the rest are disposable.

Mickey Mouse is one shrewd mother.

[MplsBison]

The sheer amount of deception in that article by all parties is remarkable. Other than the candid quote by the BC athletic director, everything else is subject to abject suspicion.

No one wants to say it, but ESPN was dupliticious in desabilizing the Big East membership to make the NBC Sports offer worthless.. Why? Because they had a right of first refusal. It's like having rights to a property you don't want to pay millions for, so instead you burn down the house and pick it up, literally, at fire sale prices. The original ESPN offer of $130 million a year dropped to $20 million. They saved over $100 million a year by making the Big East name far less valuable.

What ESPN didn't expect was a) that Fox scooped up the other half of the conference, because as a new corporate entity there was no rights of first refusal clause that would have existed had these schools simply chased the football schools off, and b) the AAC sold the brand, which was worth much more to these schools than the AAC understood.

But ESPN is back to its old tricks. This is, in part, why ESPN has been increasingly vocal about the ACC "owning" the NYC market and should, by right, have its tournament at Madison Square Garden, despite the fact that the Big East is otherwise contractually committed to it through 2026.

Coverage of the AAC schools will be "Conference USA-ized" by ESPN going forward. They got the schools they wanted reassigned to the league they wanted, and the rest are disposable.

Well...yeah? What do you expect?

Pitt and Syracuse have big time football. Gtown hardly has football period. That's why the Gtown brand was considered expendable.


You'll do your damage come tournament time, much like Butler and Marquette have done in recent years. That's what Gtown is now. You're a Butler in DC. A school that will get its deserved national attention during March Madness and no other time, which is really no different than now.


If your fans won't buy as many regular season tickets to watch the same schools you've been playing since 1979, that's their fault.

[MplsBison]

Since this thread has strayed waaaaaay beyond FCS ramifications anyway, might as well throw this link out there:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9452292/ad-says-uconn-huskies-done-chasing-other-conferences


Commissioner Mike Aresco acknowledges UConn is clearly the highest-profile member of the conference, and a cornerstone of what it is trying to build. But, he said he believes the American is closer to having the competition level of the five so-called power conference than people believe.

He said with UConn, Memphis, Temple and Cincinnati, the conference already is nationally relevant in basketball. And just as the Big East did, he believes his league will spawn other national powers.

[DFW HOYA]

Anyone counting on UConn has the cornerstone of any conference is building a house of straw.

UConn will walk with the first good offer.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Anyone counting on UConn has the cornerstone of any conference is building a house of straw.

UConn will walk with the first good offer.

I'm not at all concerned with them walking. They're not getting an offer anytime soon. There's nowhere for them to go....

[Laker]

This is the first story that I've read in a long time about a team changing levels- I don't put any stock in it at all, and I want to tell the writer that a couple of years ago that NMSU won in Minneapolis.

http://www.alamogordonews.com/alamogordo-opinion/ci_23612737/wise-senator-wants-save-nmsu-football

[MplsBison]

I'm not at all concerned with them walking. They're not getting an offer anytime soon. There's nowhere for them to go....

I'd agree with that, B1G, SEC and ACC all appear to be full at 14 (with that Notre Dame thingy bringing the ACC to 15 for non-football).

The Maryland ACC lawsuit is going to drag on for who knows how many years...


Can't see UConn going to the BigXII.

[MplsBison]

This is the first story that I've read in a long time about a team changing levels- I don't put any stock in it at all, and I want to tell the writer that a couple of years ago that NMSU won in Minneapolis.

http://www.alamogordonews.com/alamogordo-opinion/ci_23612737/wise-senator-wants-save-nmsu-football

NMSU once competed with North Texas for the Sun Belt title. I don't see anything wrong with them going back to that conference for a while.


It'd be interesting to see who MWC would take if they expand to 14. Portland St? Montana? UTEP (which is in the Mountain time zone)? Throw NMSU or Idaho a bone?

[darell1976]

NMSU once competed with North Texas for the Sun Belt title. I don't see anything wrong with them going back to that conference for a while.


It'd be interesting to see who MWC would take if they expand to 14. Portland St? Montana? UTEP (which is in the Mountain time zone)? Throw NMSU or Idaho a bone?

Montana said they aren't moving unless Montana State goes with. One reason (among many) they didn't go to the WAC. How did NMSU get so separated from New Mexico? Were they ever in-state rivals? Kinda like how Boise State is not on the save level with Idaho.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Morales, D-Silver City, says the New Mexico State Aggies can compete at the highest level in basketball, but not in football. He says NMSU should maintain an intercollegiate football program, but scale it down to Division II or the Football Championship Subdivision.

The illiteracy of some of these politicians is unbelievable. Division II is not an option for the Aggies: it's D-I FBS, D-I FCS, or nothing.


It is time to put the Morales plan in place. Like the Georgetown Hoyas, NMSU should play at a lower level in football but shoot for the stars in basketball.

:pumpuke:

[813Jag]

Montana said they aren't moving unless Montana State goes with. One reason (among many) they didn't go to the WAC. How did NMSU get so separated from New Mexico? Were they ever in-state rivals? Kinda like how Boise State is not on the save level with Idaho.
They play every year but they haven't been in the same conference since 1951. As far as I can tell UNM got into the WAC in '62 and NMSU didn't, they went separate ways.

[MplsBison]

Montana said they aren't moving unless Montana State goes with. One reason (among many) they didn't go to the WAC. How did NMSU get so separated from New Mexico? Were they ever in-state rivals? Kinda like how Boise State is not on the save level with Idaho.

Some states have dual public flagships in the technical sense, but practically one of them is "primus inter pares" in regards to having more enrollment, higher budget, larger endowment, larger research expenditures, etc.

I would say New Mexico, Utah and Colorado are primary examples of that case.


In those states, the land-grant school is every bit technically an "equal" to the namesake university in regards to being a public flagship in the state. But, especially in Utah and Colorado, the namesake universities are significantly better than the corresponding land-grants.

Perhaps the gap in New Mexico isn't quite as high, since UNM was passed over for Utah by the PAC despite comparable numbers, but it's there.


In Idaho there is only one public flagship since the namesake university is also the land-grant, regardless of Boise's prowess in athletics or Pocatello's faux land-grant name.

[CrazyCat]

Montana said they aren't moving unless Montana State goes with. One reason (among many) they didn't go to the WAC. How did NMSU get so separated from New Mexico? Were they ever in-state rivals? Kinda like how Boise State is not on the save level with Idaho.

Do you realize how close MSU & UM were to signing into the WAC ? It was within minutes of an announcement being made that both schools changed their minds.

[CrazyCat]

Has anyone ever used the term flagship in an actual conversation ?

[Laker]

Has anyone ever used the term flagship in an actual conversation ?

Maybe Captain Crunch? :D

[darell1976]

Do you realize how close MSU & UM were to signing into the WAC ? It was within minutes of an announcement being made that both schools changed their minds.

I and a lot of BSC schools thank them for not joining the WAC.
, and as for using flagship in a conversation...I think Mpls holds that record.

[Laker]

This is for basketball but the football moves are much the same- if a school plays the sport.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9458894/guide-where-realignment-shakes-college-basketball-landscape

[BisonFan02]

I and a lot of BSC schools thank them for not joining the WAC.
, and as for using flagship in a conversation...I think Mpls holds that record.

Could be true, but that statement coming from a UND fan is priceless. Outside of hockey, the "flagship" smack is thrown around on a pretty frequent basis from the neighbors to the north.

[MplsBison]

Do you realize how close MSU & UM were to signing into the WAC ? It was within minutes of an announcement being made that both schools changed their minds.

And now you're stuck in FCS for at least the next generation. Opportunity blown.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

And now you're stuck in FCS for at least the next generation. Opportunity blown.

Good.

It's quite the opportunity we missed out on. xlolx

[MplsBison]

Could be true, but that statement coming from a UND fan is priceless. Outside of hockey, the "flagship" smack is thrown around on a pretty frequent basis from the neighbors to the north.

I would say in most states where there is a separate namesake university and land-grant university that both are universally accepted as being dual flagships with generally equivalent school ranking.

This would be the case in the following states: Wash, Oregon, MT, ND, SD, KS, Okla, Texas, Miss, Ala, SC, NC, Virginia, Iowa, Indiana and Michigan.

Though in Washington and Michigan especially, the namesake has a substantial claim to having higher Ranking in academics/research - since they're both the same in terms of athletics I did not put them in the category with states like Utah, NM and Colo.

[MplsBison]

Good.

It's quite the opportunity we missed out on. xlolx

You're never getting in the PAC, so yes it was basically the only chance you had to move upward.

[darell1976]

You're never getting in the PAC, so yes it was basically the only chance you had to move upward.

I think if UM/MSU had a chance at a stable conference (Mountain West) they would take it in a heartbeat...the WAC was far from stable.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think if UM/MSU had a chance at a stable conference (Mountain West) they would take it in a heartbeat...the WAC was far from stable.

If MT and MSU had went there it probably would have stayed stable. it would be the SB West...no thanks.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You're never getting in the PAC, so yes it was basically the only chance you had to move upward.

No it was not and still is not and I really wish you were right on that one so it would all go away and stay that way. I'll let you know when an upward move presents itself but the WAC or SBC type moves are not what I'd consider upward.

For us App/GSU fans, for us...not you.

[DFW HOYA]

I would say in most states where there is a separate namesake university and land-grant university that both are universally accepted as being dual flagships with generally equivalent school ranking.

This would be the case in the following states: Wash, Oregon, MT, ND, SD, KS, Okla, Texas, Miss, Ala, SC, NC, Virginia, Iowa, Indiana and Michigan.

Virginia does not fit that definition.

"Mr. Jefferson's University" (#25) is closer academically and culturally to William & Mary (#32) than it is to VPI (#69 ).

[MplsBison]

If MT and MSU had went there it probably would have stayed stable. it would be the SB West...no thanks.

SB West football would have been an upgrade from Big Sky football.

Maybe not on the field - but that's why narrow-minds like you can't comprehend why it is in fact an upgrade.

[MplsBison]

I think if UM/MSU had a chance at a stable conference (Mountain West) they would take it in a heartbeat...the WAC was far from stable.

Not that UM and MSU can't ever get into the MWC, but they can't jump into that conference directly from FCS. They have to put in their time in the WAC, like Nevada did, like Boise did, like San Jose and Utah St did, etc.

That's why the Big Sky->WAC->MWC->PAC stepping stone system worked so well. Now that the WAC fell off the cliff, there is no more step from the Big Sky upward.

[MplsBison]

Virginia does not fit that definition.

"Mr. Jefferson's University" (#25) is closer academically and culturally to William & Mary (#32) than it is to VPI (#69 ).

I already correctly explained why your point is invalid in the post you quoted itself.

Of course -- as you love to quote clip, for some reason -- you clipped off that part of it.


This board needs to disallow quote clipping/splicing. It's an obnoxious, low-brow practice anyway.


So anyway...like I already correctly explained -- in some of those states the namesake does in fact enjoy a significantly higher ranking in academics/research than the land-grant. BUT, because the have the same level of athletics I did NOT differentiate them further like I did for UT, NM and CO.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

SB West football would have been an upgrade from Big Sky football.

Maybe not on the field - but that's why narrow-minds like you can't comprehend why it is in fact an upgrade.

http://compsci6asbs.wikispaces.com/file/view/annoying-orange.jpg/173968453/annoying-orange.jpg

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I already correctly explained why your point is invalid in the post you quoted itself.

Of course -- as you love to quote clip, for some reason -- you clipped off that part of it.


This board needs to disallow quote clipping/splicing. It's an obnoxious, low-brow practice anyway.


So anyway...like I already correctly explained -- in some of those states the namesake does in fact enjoy a significantly higher ranking in academics/research than the land-grant. BUT, because the have the same level of athletics I did NOT differentiate them further like I did for UT, NM and CO.

http://compsci6asbs.wikispaces.com/file/view/annoying-orange.jpg/173968453/annoying-orange.jpg

[MplsBison]

Nothing makes me smile wider than seeing that picture posted.

Because I know that you just conceded the argument. I won.


I confounded you...frustrated you...out-witted you to the point where you can think of no other retort that to post fruit pictures.


Ear. To ear.

[darell1976]

Not that UM and MSU can't ever get into the MWC, but they can't jump into that conference directly from FCS. They have to put in their time in the WAC, like Nevada did, like Boise did, like San Jose and Utah St did, etc.

That's why the Big Sky->WAC->MWC->PAC stepping stone system worked so well. Now that the WAC fell off the cliff, there is no more step from the Big Sky upward.

Obviously Idaho slipped off the stone. BIg Sky -> WAC -> independent -> Sun Belt.

[MplsBison]

Obviously Idaho slipped off the stone. BIg Sky -> WAC -> independent -> Sun Belt.

NM St as well.

Both were inside the WAC when it went off the cliff. The rest were able to jump up to the MWC.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nothing makes me smile wider than seeing that picture posted.

Because I know that you just conceded the argument. I won.


I confounded you...frustrated you...out-witted you to the point where you can think of no other retort that to post fruit pictures.


Ear. To ear.

http://compsci6asbs.wikispaces.com/file/view/annoying-orange.jpg/173968453/annoying-orange.jpg

[MplsBison]

:D

[BisonFan02]

http://compsci6asbs.wikispaces.com/file/view/annoying-orange.jpg/173968453/annoying-orange.jpg

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101205012741/youtube/images/3/39/Grapefruit0.jpg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20101205012741/youtube/images/3/39/Grapefruit0.jpg

This really needs an NDSU logo and an MplsBison on it somewhere...