Big East Breakup FCS Ramifications

[Pard4Life]

Ouch. Good reminder to bite my tongue every time I want to say something about Penn.

Yeah, if geography were the sole determinant, the basketball rivalry would carry over into football. Of course, if geography were the sole determinant, we'd still be playing Rutgers, and Lafayette and Lehigh would be every-year sorts of things.

HA! That article is beautiful... and Penn football players still would not be admitted to Princeton, or Lafayette for that matter!

[MplsBison]

Atlanta > NC > VA

that's why. the atlanta market is huge compared to any nc markets or va markets not already represented by maryland.

Well actually to his specific comment, I know Illinois (UIUC) is a huge engineering school. I assume Purdue is similar in Indiana. GA Tech is probably the premier technical public school in the deep south. So they fit very, very well with the Illinois, Michigan and Wisconsin's of the world.

UVA and UNC are high academic/research public flagships that would fit beautifully in the Big Ten, don't get me wrong.


That said, your market analysis is of course correct. Atlanta is the capital of the deep south and the only acceptable large market in that region I'd consider living in. You have your second class citizens like Jacksonville, Charlotte, Nashville, Memphis, Birmingham, New Orleans, but there's basically nothing between Dallas and Atlanta or between DC and Atlanta that comes close. IMO.

[Go...gate]

:)

Princeton has always been the Air Force of the Ivy's "Big Three."

It's a shame that Dartmouth and Princeton don't put more effort into their own rivalry. There's tons of great hsitory there (at least in football), even if both teams have spent more time in the lower division in recent years. But for whatever reason, both D & P spend more energy trying to become "rivals" with H&Y than each other.

Oh well...

Could not agree more - some very important matchups and terrific games in the history of the series - the "12th Man Game" in 1935, the "Hurricane Game" in 1950, many Ivy League championship games (most, but not all of which Dartmouth won) and more. Also, a lot of Dartmouth grads live in NJ.

[Go...gate]

I will say that Dartmouth and Princeton are probably more like each other in terms of culture than they are most of the other Ivies. If your rival is the opponent most like you, you'd think something strong would develop.

Well said.

[Go...gate]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9026064/catholic-7-reaches-agreement-leave-big-east-summer-sources-say

I still don't think Creighton is going to be the 10th team.

It should be St. Joseph's, but Villanova will not allow it.

[Laker]

:)

Princeton has always been the Air Force of the Ivy's "Big Three."

It's a shame that Dartmouth and Princeton don't put more effort into their own rivalry. There's tons of great hsitory there (at least in football), even if both teams have spent more time in the lower division in recent years. But for whatever reason, both D & P spend more energy trying to become "rivals" with H&Y than each other.

Oh well...


I will say that Dartmouth and Princeton are probably more like each other in terms of culture than they are most of the other Ivies. If your rival is the opponent most like you, you'd think something strong would develop.

As an outsider, I of course always connected Harvard v Yale, but also Dartmouth v Princeton. Don't ask me why, it just seemed that those would match up. I suppose Brown v Columbia too- but not really Penn v Cornell so much.

[DFW HOYA]

It should be St. Joseph's, but Villanova will not allow it.

Maybe it should be Holy Cross....but Holy Cross wouldn't allow it.

[downbythebeach]

Saint Francis University is the oldest Franciscan university in the U.S.

Why not us?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Saint Francis University is the oldest Franciscan university in the U.S.

Why not us?

I like you guys, but aside from the religious connection, it's not a match.

http://image1.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/756_f11bf176b32242ebeb0c22703a18ca82dd821ed7.jpg

[kdinva]

VMI has better support for the Water Polo team.........


I like you guys, but aside from the religious connection, it's not a match.

http://image1.stadiumjourney.com/images/stadiums/756_f11bf176b32242ebeb0c22703a18ca82dd821ed7.jpg

[MplsBison]

Now that the Catholic 7 are leaving this summer, Notre Dame does not want to be in the America 12 even a single season. $2.5 million seems likes peanuts to get in the ACC for 2013.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9032153/big-east-seeking-least-25-million-notre-dame-fighting-irish-early-exit

15 teams seems awkward for the ACC.

But have to think at least one if not two of UNC, UVA and GT will be gone to the Big Ten in the next 5 years.

[Laker]

Now that the Catholic 7 are leaving this summer, Notre Dame does not want to be in the America 12 even a single season. $2.5 million seems likes peanuts to get in the ACC for 2013.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9032153/big-east-seeking-least-25-million-notre-dame-fighting-irish-early-exit

15 teams seems awkward for the ACC.

But have to think at least one if not two of UNC, UVA and GT will be gone to the Big Ten in the next 5 years.

I know that ND even thought about being with the Catholic 7 for a year. I agree, to go ACC a year early should be worth the money. And I keep hearing that some ACC teams will be gone- Big Ten, SEC or Big 12- it just depends who pulls the trigger first.

[MplsBison]

I know that ND even thought about being with the Catholic 7 for a year. I agree, to go ACC a year early should be worth the money. And I keep hearing that some ACC teams will be gone- Big Ten, SEC or Big 12- it just depends who pulls the trigger first.

Well one is a given. Maryland will be in the Big Ten in 2014.

Just hard for me not seeing the Big Ten wanting to get into Atlanta with a very good engineering/technical/research school like Tech. Then you take one more to get to 16, Virginia probably makes more sense or is more likely to be willing to leave. Great B school as well!

[Laker]

Well one is a given. Maryland will be in the Big Ten in 2014.

Just hard for me not seeing the Big Ten wanting to get into Atlanta with a very good engineering/technical/research school like Tech. Then you take one more to get to 16, Virginia probably makes more sense or is more likely to be willing to leave. Great B school as well!

It causes a lot of debate. I kept thinking that the BIG would not want Rutgers but TV was more important that athletic success. And will the BIG stop at 16 or will it double itself and go to 20, growing to a bloated size like the Russian Empire or Mr. Creosote in Monty Python's The Meaning of Life?

[walliver]

America 12 is a bad name.

1) A-12 looks a lot like A-10
2) Adding numbers to a conference whan conferences are constantly changing sizes make no sense.

They should be honest an call it the Limbo Conference, since all of it's members are just biding time hoping to go somewhere else.

[MplsBison]

America 12 is a bad name.

1) A-12 looks a lot like A-10
2) Adding numbers to a conference whan conferences are constantly changing sizes make no sense.

They should be honest an call it the Limbo Conference, since all of it's members are just biding time hoping to go somewhere else.

Yes..but more and more increasingly than ever, those schools not already in BCS conferences have no realistic yellow brick road to the promised land.

I can see UConn and maybe Cincy and South Florida getting invited to the ACC if it wants to maintain a 16 or more membership after two or three more schools leave.

The rest..I just don't really ever see getting above a CUSA or America 12 type conference in football.

[DFW HOYA]

The ACC schools (and their friends at ESPN) helped ruin the Big East. Their day of reckoning is coming as well, or as soon as the court throws out the $50 million exit fee foisted on Maryland.

[MplsBison]

The ACC schools (and their friends at ESPN) helped ruin the Big East. Their day of reckoning is coming as well, or as soon as the court throws out the $50 million exit fee foisted on Maryland.

As much as your vengence would have it - I just don't see reasonable death coming to the Big XII or ACC. Too much money in too many pockets.

A doomsday scenario where Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Florida State and Clemson all leave the conference at once will never be allowed to happen.

Heck the Big XII was supposedly on it's death bed - someone probably got some money under the table and surprise, surprise it stayed together and is prospering again. In the same way, the ACC will be pulled up money wise to near Big XII, B1G and SEC levels in order to keep the members reasonably happy and intact. Losing Virginia, Maryland and Georgia Tech isn't going to kill the conference. Louisville, UConn and Cincy or South Florida are reasonable replacements and the conference will live on and continue making money. Plus add in Notre Dame for non-football with a football scheduling alliance that the ACC will still market and sell the heck out of.


Georgetown meanwhile will be where it's always been and where it should be: the (real) Big East. The America 12 will be the new CUSA and the CUSA will be the new Sun Belt. Something like that.

[DFW HOYA]

A doomsday scenario where Virginia, North Carolina, Georgia Tech, Florida State and Clemson all leave the conference at once will never be allowed to happen.


Maybe not, but...

The Big 12 will get a call from the ACC's southern flank once the Maryland lawsuit is settled: Clemson, FSU, GTech, and a 4th school, maybe Miami, maybe NC State. These are the schools which always grounse about how North Carolina runs the conference, and how the smaller schools (Duke, Wake, Virginia) hold all the cards. If they want to fight alongside the SEC and the Big Ten, these are football schools first and give the Big 12 stability even if Texas is someday lured away by the Pac-12(However crazy that sounds, and it does, UTexas has been looking at Cal and UCLA as academic peers and would entertain the offer, but the Pac-12 is resistant to adding Oklahoma to accomodate such an eastward expansion.)

There are just too many stories going around about UNC, Jim Delany (a 1971 Carolina grad) and the Big Ten not to assume it's on the radar. The money ($22M/yr.) and the academic prestige of the Big 10 (through the CIC consortium) would be difficult to resist. Whether that's coming along with Georgia Tech (Atlanta) or Virginia (instant rival with Maryland) it allows the Big 10 to own the corridor potentially from Georgia through New Jersey. That's lots of cable subscribers, which is what this is all about.

The ACC would then be left with Wake Forest, Duke, Virginia Tech, BC, Syracuse, Pitt, Notre Dame (no football) and Louisville. You can add all the UConns and Cincinnatis you want, it still isn't worth $17 million a year from ESPN. That having been said, I'd still rather have Georgetown and Villanova (splitting a half share each of that money) in that arrangement than some of the bottom feeders rumored for Big East 3.0, but that's not my call.

But this land grab only reinforces the new reality of college sports: rivalries now take a back seat to revenues.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's lots of cable subscribers, which is what this is all about.

The model for how consumers watch TV is changing. Fox and ESPN might give (and get) a lot of money up front now, but who knows what TV consumption is going to look like five years from now? TV might be driving all of collegiate athletics in the ditch, leaving a broken product behind with rivalries wrecked.

I understand that "five years from now" is not being thought about by anybody. Which is precisely the problem.

[walliver]

Maybe not, but...

The Big 12 will get a call from the ACC's southern flank once the Maryland lawsuit is settled: Clemson, FSU, GTech, and a 4th school, maybe Miami, maybe NC State. ...

Clemson, GT, Miami and NC State all voted for the $50Million buyout. They will have a lot harder time getting out of the buyout than Maryland and FSU.

Although the ACC is arguably #5 out of the 5 football power conferences, they still have a sizable media deal. A move to the B1G may be financially advantageous, but a move to the B12 probably is not. Athletically, a move to the B12 is a wash in football, and a step down in BB. Geographically, none of the current ACC members fit well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Big12Locations6.png

I suspect there will be some movement, but not a BE style collapse.

[MplsBison]

Well it's official, Notre Dame joins the ACC this summer for all sports and they STILL don't have to pay a single cent for it. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9042949/notre-dame-big-east-agree-irish-exit-2-years-early-join-acc-source-says

The ACC isn't going anywhere, not with 5 Notre Dame football games to market and sell every year. Replacing Maryland, Virginia and Georgia Tech with Louisville, UConn and Cincinnati isn't exactly one-to-one, but they still have plenty of market and great teams to be a legit top 5 power conference.

[MplsBison]

Clemson, GT, Miami and NC State all voted for the $50Million buyout. They will have a lot harder time getting out of the buyout than Maryland and FSU.

Although the ACC is arguably #5 out of the 5 football power conferences, they still have a sizable media deal. A move to the B1G may be financially advantageous, but a move to the B12 probably is not. Athletically, a move to the B12 is a wash in football, and a step down in BB. Geographically, none of the current ACC members fit well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Big12Locations6.png

I suspect there will be some movement, but not a BE style collapse.

That's a great picture and really shows how the Big XII is basically the great plains conference plus West Virginia. It's too bad Missouri couldn't have stayed, WV gone to the ACC and someone from the ACC gone to the SEC. Alas, it is what it is.

At this point, I don't see Florida St going to the Big XII. They tried, it was outed and it was silenced. Swofford snuffed it out. He's a big time player and he, more than anything, is the reason the ACC isn't going to die any kind of death any time soon.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well it's official, Notre Dame joins the ACC this summer for all sports and they STILL don't have to pay a single cent for it. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9042949/notre-dame-big-east-agree-irish-exit-2-years-early-join-acc-source-says

The ACC isn't going anywhere, not with 5 Notre Dame football games to market and sell every year. Replacing Maryland, Virginia and Georgia Tech with Louisville, UConn and Cincinnati isn't exactly one-to-one, but they still have plenty of market and great teams to be a legit top 5 power conference.

Ah, but which five, when? I don't think this is going to end well for the ACC. I'm sure Florida State isn't on Notre Dame's speed-dial, and after seeing multiple years of ND/UNC and ND/Duke, that's not going to sit well with Seminole Nation.

Case in point: Syracuse gets two Notre Dame games in 2014 and 2015.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/future_schedules/notredame_future.htm

[MplsBison]

The model for how consumers watch TV is changing. Fox and ESPN might give (and get) a lot of money up front now, but who knows what TV consumption is going to look like five years from now? TV might be driving all of collegiate athletics in the ditch, leaving a broken product behind with rivalries wrecked.

I understand that "five years from now" is not being thought about by anybody. Which is precisely the problem.

Five years from now is going to be exactly the same as it is now. Both content producers and content distributors like how it is now...they make a lot of money by making people get the first crack at new content in a pigeonholed matter.

Yes, it will all change one day. Maybe in 20 years...once they've figured out how to ensure they'll make no less money off the new system as they are today.


I don't understand why it's so hard for people to understand this. You don't just change the entire system in a completely radical way simply because the technology is ready. You don't make money disappear from people's pockets like that - that's now how the world works. Even if it would be better.

[Babar]

If it stops with Maryland, the ACC can hang together. If they don't put together a Grant of Rights, though, they're just asking for another domino to fall. The very fact that they won't put together a grant of rights makes it seem like schools want out (and I think some do, though they'd all prefer the B1G or SEC to the Big 12.)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Five years from now is going to be exactly the same as it is now. Both content producers and content distributors like how it is now...they make a lot of money by making people get the first crack at new content in a pigeonholed matter.

Hmm, there's a third party missing in this analysis somewhere. I wonder who those millions of people are?

[MplsBison]

Ah, but which five, when? I don't think this is going to end well for the ACC. I'm sure Florida State isn't on Notre Dame's speed-dial, and after seeing multiple years of ND/UNC and ND/Duke, that's not going to sit well with Seminole Nation.

Case in point: Syracuse gets two Notre Dame games in 2014 and 2015.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/future_schedules/notredame_future.htm

Florida State ain't going no where. Simple as that. They tried it and Swofford snuffed it out.

They're going to make sure bigtime football programs like Fla St and Clemson are making as close to as much money as they would in the Big XII as they can. That'll have to do.

[MplsBison]

If it stops with Maryland, the ACC can hang together. If they don't put together a Grant of Rights, though, they're just asking for another domino to fall. The very fact that they won't put together a grant of rights makes it seem like schools want out (and I think some do, though they'd all prefer the B1G or SEC to the Big 12.)

Alright, if you say so.

Just remember the entire internet was planning the Big XII's funeral. How did that turn out? We'll see.


I'm telling you, when there's that much momentum of money - it's hard to just turn it off. Shoot...people probably get bribed. What has to be done gets done.

[MplsBison]

Hmm, there's a third party missing in this analysis somewhere. I wonder who those millions of people are?

Subscribers are sheep. They have no say.

[Laker]

Well it's official, Notre Dame joins the ACC this summer for all sports and they STILL don't have to pay a single cent for it. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9042949/notre-dame-big-east-agree-irish-exit-2-years-early-join-acc-source-says
.

I can't believe that they are letting them go early without paying a dime. I would have made them pay or stay. Notre Dame seems to get by with a free pass every time.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Alright, if you say so.

Just remember the entire internet was planning the Big XII's funeral. How did that turn out? We'll see.

Flashback: 2010:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2010/06/how-will-pac-n-big-ten-plus-and-big.html


Will the conference formerly known as the Big XII soldier on?

The answer to this question to me is - and this will be a surprise - maybe.

Why? The answer, unsurprisingly, comes from Texas.

Like Colorado and Nebraska, Texas will do what is best for themselves. And they have a pretty damned good deal in the Big XII. They have a TV deal which gives them, well, basically all the money. They're the epicenter of the conference. Recruiting? They don't even need to recruit; folks come to them.

The hot rumor is that Texas will go to the Pac 12 - with their friends, or not - but the SEC is trying to put a monkey wrench in the proceedings by pursuing Texas A&M, dangling a check in their faces and giving the Aggies something to think about.

But the Longhorns won't move for just any old reason. Sure, if they can move with all their important rivals from the old Big XII to some other conference - without changing their revenue stream - they'll be fine with that. But they won't move just for the sake of moving.

And it makes no financial sense for Texas to go to the Pac 12 if they don't take along their leaguemates. They won't get the lions' share of the money if they and Colorado are the only teams that go, and losing Texas A&M will lose them the biggest rival of all. Losing them will hurt their brand badly, and they know it.

If I'm Texas and I'm faced with "going it alone", why don't I just try to make the Big XII work instead? Grabbing UAB and Southern Miss from Conference USA perhaps isn't the best option, but they at least will make the SEC squirm and bring a championship game back to the discussion. It would hurt to put Oklahoma and Oklahoma State in the North, but a Texas/Oklahoma championship game would be something to behold.

Best of all from Texas' perspective, they would still hold onto all the money. They'd still have Kansas basketball, "history", and rivalries while they craft their own television network to make even more money.

So the answer to the original question is: The fate of the Big XII is in Texas' hands. Fortunately for the remaining schools of the Big XII, it is not at all clear if moving to the Pac Ten, Big Ten or SEC alone is going to be worth it to Texas.

Liar.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can't believe that they are letting them go early without paying a dime. I would have made them pay or stay. Notre Dame seems to get by with a free pass every time.

The ACC had no choice. They were ****ting bricks when Swofford was publicly flirting with the new Big East. And the old Big East just wants this all to go away so they can figure out - chortle - what to do next.

[Babar]

Subscribers are sheep. They have no say.

Until they do, and then they have all the say.

There's still good odds that the B1G's eastern gamble wil blown up in its face. I will be amazed if the Big Ten Networkis able to strongarm millions of New Yorkers into paying for college football they don't care about at all.

And subscribers have already voted on the Longhorn Network. Everybody else in the Big 12 is quietly rolling out much more targeted and sustainable school-specific networks, having learned from Texas's mistakes.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And subscribers have already voted on the Longhorn Network. Everybody else in the Big 12 is quietly rolling out much more targeted and sustainable school-specific networks, having learned from Texas's mistakes.

+10000000.

[Laker]

the Longhorn Network.

They should have called it the Longdick Network. At least the porn watchers would have subscribed then.

[MplsBison]

Until they do, and then they have all the say.

There's still good odds that the B1G's eastern gamble wil blown up in its face. I will be amazed if the Big Ten Networkis able to strongarm millions of New Yorkers into paying for college football they don't care about at all.

And subscribers have already voted on the Longhorn Network. Everybody else in the Big 12 is quietly rolling out much more targeted and sustainable school-specific networks, having learned from Texas's mistakes.

Every single cable TV subscriber in the states of New Jersey and Maryland will be receiving the Big Ten Network as part of their standard tier of programming, whether they want it or not. And they will pay $___ per subscriber for the privilege of receiving such a fine channel, whether they want to or not.

Not sure what you don't understand about that...that's how the system works. Like the cable companies really give a crap if subscribers don't want a channel in their standard tier. 75% of the channels they stuff in there are garbage that few people watch anyway. It's just another thing that they can market "we have X channels! more than Company B!" "Proud to bring you, the Big Ten Network! Home of Rutgers athletics!".


Let me know when you're streaming all your favorite, new content right off the internet in high quality, jitter-free, glitch-free, buffering-free HD, A la carte.

[Babar]

Every single cable TV subscriber in the states of New Jersey and Maryland will be receiving the Big Ten Network as part of their standard tier of programming, whether they want it or not. And they will pay $___ per subscriber for the privilege of receiving such a fine channel, whether they want to or not.

This remains to be seen. It's possible, but it's also possible that the B1G has bitten off much more than they can chew. The magical equation you see on message boards: "The BTN automatically gets on standard cable if the conference has a school in the market!!!" is wishful thinking. Selling Ohio State in Cleveland is very different than selling Rutgers in Hoboken, and NYC's cable carriers can't just raise prices by adding channels without audiences, or they would already be doing that. Crucially, the Big Ten Network is already available in NYC to the hardcore Big Ten fans who really want it. Any additional revenue has to come straight out of the pockets of casual fans and people who never watch college sports, or it has to be a loss absorbed by Time-Warner, which is not going to happen. You realize New York City's own professional sports teams periodically can't get on the air in their own city because of contract disputes with cable carriers? Good luck, Rutgers.

Feel free to crow if and when everybody in the tri-state area and DMV is paying for the BTN network. I'll tip my hat to Jim Delany. I think it's much more likely that the B1G is playing a long game, and is much more concerned with building a fan base and strengthening existing alumni networks on the East Coast than it is with tapping into what would be--if the internet message boards are right--something amounting to an arbitrage opportunity in big television markets.

Basically, I'm not sure the BTN adds enough value to cable in NYC to pull profit from it, and if they do profit without adding value, it will only last until some bright executive figures out how to cut them off.


Not sure what you don't understand about that...that's how the system works. Like the cable companies really give a crap if subscribers don't want a channel in their standard tier. 75% of the channels they stuff in there are garbage that few people watch anyway. It's just another thing that they can market "we have X channels! more than Company B!" "Proud to bring you, the Big Ten Network! Home of Rutgers athletics!".

If the cable companies didn't give a crap what subscribers wanted at all, they wouldn't have to market stuff. You're confusing a relatively slow and inefficient market with one that's totally unresponsive to consumer preference. Cable companies make cold-blooded calculations about the ROI of every additional channel, and even though it seems like they've got a lot of meaningless fluff, they can't just add channels willy-nilly and increase fees or, again, they would already be doing that every day.


Let me know when you're streaming all your favorite, new content right off the internet in high quality, jitter-free, glitch-free, buffering-free HD, A la carte.

I think it's sad that we see ourselves as consumers.

[RichH2]

Agree reluctantly Babar. BCS long ago stopped caring about "fans", ratings,TV contracts, and us the consumer. TV not geography sets new leagues. Greed will destroy college sports soon enuf at that level. Love our FCS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Selling Ohio State in Cleveland is very different than selling Rutgers in Hoboken, and NYC's cable carriers can't just raise prices by adding channels without audiences, or they would already be doing that. Crucially, the Big Ten Network is already available in NYC to the hardcore Big Ten fans who really want it. Any additional revenue has to come straight out of the pockets of casual fans and people who never watch college sports, or it has to be a loss absorbed by Time-Warner, which is not going to happen. You realize New York City's own professional sports teams periodically can't get on the air in their own city because of contract disputes with cable carriers? Good luck, Rutgers.

Add to this 100% true observation two more things.

First - and this is the calculus that those B1G people seem to pathologically seem to overlook - is that Rutgers is the New Jersey market and not the New York City market. The New Jersey market in many ways is one of the worst in the nation in they get competition from not only the many, many New York teams but the Philadelphia teams as well. In fall sports, you have three NFL teams, four NHL teams, two MLS soccer teams and three NBA teams competing for sports programming and interest, many of which compete head-to-head with Rutgers football, even on weird nights like Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday. And even in the collegiate football realm they are distantly behind the national programs like Notre Dame and even, I wouldn't doubt, the best SEC teams. Furthermore, as Babar points out, even with all that the B1G network is already available anyway if people want it bad enough.

Second - if it is indeed arbitrage, it only is a profit for the parties in the inefficient market until the arbitrage window is closed. This ties into my earlier point that nobody is thinking about five years from now. The calculations by the B1G seem to envision a model of military conquest of local cable systems as far as the eye can see. But this arbitrage window may not be around five years from now.

[nwFL Griz]

Ah, but which five, when? I don't think this is going to end well for the ACC. I'm sure Florida State isn't on Notre Dame's speed-dial, and after seeing multiple years of ND/UNC and ND/Duke, that's not going to sit well with Seminole Nation.

Case in point: Syracuse gets two Notre Dame games in 2014 and 2015.

http://www.nationalchamps.net/NCAA/future_schedules/notredame_future.htm

When? Every single year beginning in 2014. Which 5 has not been revealed yet, but the ACC plans to have ND play every school at least once every 3 years.

[MplsBison]

When? Every single year beginning in 2014. Which 5 has not been revealed yet, but the ACC plans to have ND play every school at least once every 3 years.

Right. Which is why I don't think FL St or Clemson are going anywhere, certainly not to the Big XII and they don't move the needle market wise for the SEC. The SEC would take NC St and VT if they did anything from the ACC.

Virginia or Georgia Tech are the most likely to leave (to the B1G) and the conference will survive without them (UConn and Cincy).

[MplsBison]

This remains to be seen. It's possible, but it's also possible that the B1G has bitten off much more than they can chew. The magical equation you see on message boards: "The BTN automatically gets on standard cable if the conference has a school in the market!!!" is wishful thinking. Selling Ohio State in Cleveland is very different than selling Rutgers in Hoboken, and NYC's cable carriers can't just raise prices by adding channels without audiences, or they would already be doing that. Crucially, the Big Ten Network is already available in NYC to the hardcore Big Ten fans who really want it. Any additional revenue has to come straight out of the pockets of casual fans and people who never watch college sports, or it has to be a loss absorbed by Time-Warner, which is not going to happen. You realize New York City's own professional sports teams periodically can't get on the air in their own city because of contract disputes with cable carriers? Good luck, Rutgers.

Feel free to crow if and when everybody in the tri-state area and DMV is paying for the BTN network. I'll tip my hat to Jim Delany. I think it's much more likely that the B1G is playing a long game, and is much more concerned with building a fan base and strengthening existing alumni networks on the East Coast than it is with tapping into what would be--if the internet message boards are right--something amounting to an arbitrage opportunity in big television markets.

Basically, I'm not sure the BTN adds enough value to cable in NYC to pull profit from it, and if they do profit without adding value, it will only last until some bright executive figures out how to cut them off.



If the cable companies didn't give a crap what subscribers wanted at all, they wouldn't have to market stuff. You're confusing a relatively slow and inefficient market with one that's totally unresponsive to consumer preference. Cable companies make cold-blooded calculations about the ROI of every additional channel, and even though it seems like they've got a lot of meaningless fluff, they can't just add channels willy-nilly and increase fees or, again, they would already be doing that every day.



I think it's sad that we see ourselves as consumers.

Good post.

We will see. I just don't see why New Jersey and Maryland are going to be any different. What cable network in those states is going to be able to refuse their customers demands to watch Rutgers and U of MD on the Big Ten Network while simultaneously fending off the BTN's requirements for whatever minimum fee per subscriber as well as requiring standard tier slotting?

When the BTN's heavy cavalry rolls around the state, going network-to-network and clobbering them all one-by-one....what is there to do?

[Nova09]

Good post.

We will see. I just don't see why New Jersey and Maryland are going to be any different. What cable network in those states is going to be able to refuse their customers demands to watch Rutgers and U of MD on the Big Ten Network while simultaneously fending off the BTN's requirements for whatever minimum fee per subscriber as well as requiring standard tier slotting?

When the BTN's heavy cavalry rolls around the state, going network-to-network and clobbering them all one-by-one....what is there to do?

You can be sure a lot more NYers care about watching the Yankees than Rutgers football, but that didn't stop cable providers from blacking out many homes to games do to hefty asking prices from YES. Granted, that was way back at the beginning of these specialized sports networks, but more recently many NYers were blacked out from Knicks and Rangers games when there was cost disputes with MSG, and again I can assure you many more people cared about those games than care about Rutgers football. I'm not making any predictions about how this plays out, but to assume the cable providers will have no choice but to bend to BTN price demands because consumers will demand Rutgers football (a) assumes that people actually will demand Rutgers football and (b) ignores the recent history of televised sports in the region.

[MplsBison]

You can be sure a lot more NYers care about watching the Yankees than Rutgers football, but that didn't stop cable providers from blacking out many homes to games do to hefty asking prices from YES. Granted, that was way back at the beginning of these specialized sports networks, but more recently many NYers were blacked out from Knicks and Rangers games when there was cost disputes with MSG, and again I can assure you many more people cared about those games than care about Rutgers football. I'm not making any predictions about how this plays out, but to assume the cable providers will have no choice but to bend to BTN price demands because consumers will demand Rutgers football (a) assumes that people actually will demand Rutgers football and (b) ignores the recent history of televised sports in the region.

You're the third person now to talk about New York. When did I say anything about New York??

The state of New Jersey is the topic here. A state with almost 9 million people and I assume probably something like 1-2 million cable TV subscribers. That's serious cash to the BTN.

Likewise, Maryland has about 6 million people and probably close to 1 million cable TV subscribers (a number I'm pulling out of my butt for both, by the way - I'd love to know a real estimate or actual).


Furthermore, might as well talk about Virginia and Georgia (Tech): 8 million and almost 10 million respectively.

[Nova09]

You're the third person now to talk about New York. When did I say anything about New York??

The state of New Jersey is the topic here. A state with almost 9 million people and I assume probably something like 1-2 million cable TV subscribers. That's serious cash to the BTN.

Likewise, Maryland has about 6 million people and probably close to 1 million cable TV subscribers (a number I'm pulling out of my butt for both, by the way - I'd love to know a real estimate or actual).


Furthermore, might as well talk about Virginia and Georgia (Tech): 8 million and almost 10 million respectively.

Maybe you haven't mentioned NY, but many people who think Rutgers is good for B1G use the NY market as the main reasoning. I've lived in the NY market, so that's what I spoke to. I have also lived in the Philly market, and I can tell you that there is very little of NJ left when you take those 2 out. So if you're not arguing that the NY networks will automatically carry BTN, you have to adjust your NJ numbers.

[MplsBison]

Maybe you haven't mentioned NY, but many people who think Rutgers is good for B1G use the NY market as the main reasoning. I've lived in the NY market, so that's what I spoke to. I have also lived in the Philly market, and I can tell you that there is very little of NJ left when you take those 2 out. So if you're not arguing that the NY networks will automatically carry BTN, you have to adjust your NJ numbers.

Rutgers is the state public flagship for New Jersey. Therefore, every cable network in the state of New Jersey will have some percentage of customers who demand to watch Rutgers games on BTN and aren't going to want to pay for a "sports package" to get that channel. Each network will have to decide if they want to fight the BTN's policies on slotting and per subscriber fees, completely give in to them or just not carry the network period.

It is simple, really.


If a NYC cable network finds that they receive sufficient customer demand to add the BTN as well, then that's a good thing but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Rutgers is the state public flagship for New Jersey. Therefore, every cable network in the state of New Jersey will have some percentage of customers who demand to watch Rutgers games on BTN...

My screen is now filled with coffee.

[Nova09]

Rutgers is the state public flagship for New Jersey. Therefore, every cable network in the state of New Jersey will have some percentage of customers who demand to watch Rutgers games on BTN and aren't going to want to pay for a "sports package" to get that channel. Each network will have to decide if they want to fight the BTN's policies on slotting and per subscriber fees, completely give in to them or just not carry the network period.

It is simple, really.


If a NYC cable network finds that they receive sufficient customer demand to add the BTN as well, then that's a good thing but irrelevant to the topic at hand.

NYC cable providers are not irrelevant, because they service many NJ households. You are trying to separate the state of NJ and its residents from the NY market. There is very real overlap there. That was the point of my post above, which you didn't argue with. If you're talking about the NJ households that don't get cable from NY or Philly, I won't get into that because I've never lived in NJ. And again, I'm not saying the NY cable companies definitively will not carry BTN, I was just pointing out recent examples of why it would be foolish to assume they definitively will carry it. And if you accept that it is not decided yet if NY cable providers will have BTN as a standard offering, than you also accept that not every NJ household with cable will be getting the BTN.

[MplsBison]

My screen is now filled with coffee.

Didn't know facts cause you to pour coffee on your monitor.

For example, 1% qualifies under "some percentage". And given that Rutgers has over 50k students and hundreds of thousands of alumni living in NJ, my statement is all the more correct.

[MplsBison]

NYC cable providers are not irrelevant, because they service many NJ households. You are trying to separate the state of NJ and its residents from the NY market. There is very real overlap there. That was the point of my post above, which you didn't argue with. If you're talking about the NJ households that don't get cable from NY or Philly, I won't get into that because I've never lived in NJ. And again, I'm not saying the NY cable companies definitively will not carry BTN, I was just pointing out recent examples of why it would be foolish to assume they definitively will carry it. And if you accept that it is not decided yet if NY cable providers will have BTN as a standard offering, than you also accept that not every NJ household with cable will be getting the BTN.

Cable TV is regulated by the federal government. Now granted I could be completely wrong here...but I think it's not allowed to receive Cable TV service from a network whose signal originates out-of-state.

In other words, every single cable TV subscriber that lives literally right on the river across from NYC must be connected to a network that originates within the state of NJ. Same applies to southern NJ. A guy in NJ can't be connected to a wire that goes across the river and hooks up into a signal source in NY or PA.

Just because the network in both state's is owned by "Comcast" or "Time Warner", does not mean they're legally the same network.


So I'm literally saying the above and then coupling that with the BTN's policy of going after every network within a state containing one of its members. NJ would fall under that category.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Cable TV is regulated by the federal government. Now granted I could be completely wrong here...but I think it's not allowed to receive Cable TV service from a network whose signal originates out-of-state.

In other words, every single cable TV subscriber that lives literally right on the river across from NYC must be connected to a network that originates within the state of NJ. Same applies to southern NJ. A guy in NJ can't be connected to a wire that goes across the river and hooks up into a signal source in NY or PA.

Just because the network in both state's is owned by "Comcast" or "Time Warner", does not mean they're legally the same network.


So I'm literally saying the above and then coupling that with the BTN's policy of going after every network within a state containing one of its members. NJ would fall under that category.

On a technical level this is true. Cable TV is regulated by the federal government and you can't receive "cable TV" service from an out-of-state cable provider. However, satellite TV and FiOS/XFinity/U-Verse is not considered "cable TV" service. It is considered a "telecommunications service" and they are exempt from the state franchising rules.

[MplsBison]

On a technical level this is true. Cable TV is regulated by the federal government and you can't receive "cable TV" service from an out-of-state cable provider. However, satellite TV and FiOS/XFinity/U-Verse is not considered "cable TV" service. It is considered a "telecommunications service" and they are exempt from the state franchising rules.

Right. I myself am a Dish subscriber.

So I believe BTN's strategy in those such cases is to negotiate with those service providers to have the BTN as part of the standard tier for every customer within those states. I know in Minnesota, for example, BTN is included in the America's Top whatever standard tier. That may not be true for Dish subscribers in Colorado.

Now for the fiber optic networks, those I believe are still operated the same like cable networks (ie at a local level). Just in that case it may indeed be possible for someone in NJ to have a fiber optic line go across the river to a source in NYC. No idea what BTN's strategy is for these such networks, but I would assume they're small enough in market share so as to warrant individual treatment and negotiating for each.

[MplsBison]

Not really news, more like news of upcoming news...

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9049766/source-new-big-east-announce-additional-members-7-10-days

[JimLU]

Guys, hold on here regarding your understanding of cable TV restrictions. Cable operators can show pretty much whatever they want regardless of it's physical origin if it's not an over the air broadcast channel. There are however major restrictions to cable systems carrying broadcast tv signals from outside a local market imposed by the FCC and by the holders of the rights fees attached to the programming. BTN getting on New York or New Jersey cable systems has nothing to do with where the signal physically originates. It's all about whether the system operator is willing to pay the per subscriber charge BTN will insist on. The system operator has to pay that monthly fee per customer, whether the customer watches BTN or not.

[MplsBison]

Guys, hold on here regarding your understanding of cable TV restrictions. Cable operators can show pretty much whatever they want regardless of it's physical origin if it's not an over the air broadcast channel. There are however major restrictions to cable systems carrying broadcast tv signals from outside a local market imposed by the FCC and by the holders of the rights fees attached to the programming. BTN getting on New York or New Jersey cable systems has nothing to do with where the signal physically originates. It's all about whether the system operator is willing to pay the per subscriber charge BTN will insist on. The system operator has to pay that monthly fee per customer, whether the customer watches BTN or not.

No, no, no. That's not at all what I meant.

I know the BTN studio signal originates...somewhere, probably Chicago, and is beamed by satellite to each cable network. That's the point of cable or "community antenna" television.

What I'm saying is that the source of the signal that reaches your set-top box, ie the source within your local cable network itself, can not go across state lines.

For example, the BTN signal comes down to a satellite dish at your cable network's central office. They then send that signal out to your set-top box via their network. What I'm saying can't happen is for that central office to be located in NYC and for the network to extend across the river into NJ.



Jeez...isn't this how the internet message board community goes...we're arguing about cable TV networks.... xsmugx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Guys, hold on here regarding your understanding of cable TV restrictions. Cable operators can show pretty much whatever they want regardless of it's physical origin if it's not an over the air broadcast channel. There are however major restrictions to cable systems carrying broadcast tv signals from outside a local market imposed by the FCC and by the holders of the rights fees attached to the programming. BTN getting on New York or New Jersey cable systems has nothing to do with where the signal physically originates. It's all about whether the system operator is willing to pay the per subscriber charge BTN will insist on. The system operator has to pay that monthly fee per customer, whether the customer watches BTN or not.

Thanks for the explanation. Basically, the people who watch TV in NJ do it in the following ways:
* over-the-air
* state-franchised cable TV
* telecommunications service (U-Verse/FiOS/Xfinity)
* Dish

In order to get "complete coverage" BTN would have to be present in all four instances. Over-the-air, obviously, is out. Telcom and dish services are national and if you want BTN, you pay for that privilege. That leaves the state-franchised cable TV providers. They're the ones that decide whether BTN will be carried or not.

Internet service is linked to all of this too. If you have "telecommunications service" like FiOS or Xfinity it's bundled together and you get a certain amount of stations you can watch over the internet. Cable providers are also entering this space, I believe.

[MplsBison]

Thanks for the explanation. Basically, the people who watch TV in NJ do it in the following ways:
* over-the-air
* state-franchised cable TV
* telecommunications service (U-Verse/FiOS/Xfinity)
* Dish

In order to get "complete coverage" BTN would have to be present in all four instances. Over-the-air, obviously, is out. Telcom and dish services are national and if you want BTN, you pay for that privilege. That leaves the state-franchised cable TV providers. They're the ones that decide whether BTN will be carried or not.

Internet service is linked to all of this too. If you have "telecommunications service" like FiOS or Xfinity it's bundled together and you get a certain amount of stations you can watch over the internet. Cable providers are also entering this space, I believe.

But, as I said - the BTN negotiates with DirecTV, DISH and all those new fiber optic networks to make sure that BTN is included in a "standard" tier within those states that have Big Ten schools.

As NJ and MD will now be such states, residents within those states who subscribe to DirecTV's standard tier that includes ESPN, ESPN2, etc. may suddenly find they now have access to BTN without having to purchase the "sports package".

[Nova09]

Cable TV is regulated by the federal government. Now granted I could be completely wrong here...but I think it's not allowed to receive Cable TV service from a network whose signal originates out-of-state.

In other words, every single cable TV subscriber that lives literally right on the river across from NYC must be connected to a network that originates within the state of NJ. Same applies to southern NJ. A guy in NJ can't be connected to a wire that goes across the river and hooks up into a signal source in NY or PA.

Just because the network in both state's is owned by "Comcast" or "Time Warner", does not mean they're legally the same network.


So I'm literally saying the above and then coupling that with the BTN's policy of going after every network within a state containing one of its members. NJ would fall under that category.

Ok, so go back to my first post and replace NY with Bergen and Middlesex counties. The point remains the same. In those counties, cable providers blacked out YES network and MSG for a period of time. And in those counties, many more people cared about watching the Yankees on YES and Knicks and Rangers on MSG than care about watching Rutgers on BTN. So, it is not a foregone conclusion that just because some people in those counties will want to watch Rutgers the providers will have to pay the BTN and carry it.

You could counter that all the providers do offer those channels now, and like I said all along I have no idea how it will all play out. I'm just saying there is recent history that cable providers won't necessarily carry sports channels on their basic package.

[MplsBison]

Ok, so go back to my first post and replace NY with Bergen and Middlesex counties. The point remains the same. In those counties, cable providers blacked out YES network and MSG for a period of time. And in those counties, many more people cared about watching the Yankees on YES and Knicks and Rangers on MSG than care about watching Rutgers on BTN. So, it is not a foregone conclusion that just because some people in those counties will want to watch Rutgers the providers will have to pay the BTN and carry it.

You could counter that all the providers do offer those channels now, and like I said all along I have no idea how it will all play out. I'm just saying there is recent history that cable providers won't necessarily carry sports channels on their basic package.

Well first of all, ultimately the networks aren't going to take a loss to provide any channel, period. More channels mean more money for the network. So it's the customers of those networks that will pay to have BTN in the standard tier.

Secondly, you're conflating two completely different things. Your example of YES and MSG basically nixes your entire argument -- those channels were being carried in Bergen/Middlesex counties in order to be blacked out!

What we're talking about is if the BTN will even be carried by the local networks in those counties or not. So you can't use an example of channels that were carried as evidence that a channel won't be carried.


Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BTN will never be blacked out. In fact, DISH blacked them out at the start of last football season (much to my anger...). That's a song and dance that content creators (like BTN, ESPN, etc.) and distributors (like Comcast, DirecTV, etc.) play ALL THE TIME and should not be confused with the decision for a distributor to even carry the channel at all.

[Nova09]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying the BTN will never be blacked out. In fact, DISH blacked them out at the start of last football season (much to my anger...). That's a song and dance that content creators (like BTN, ESPN, etc.) and distributors (like Comcast, DirecTV, etc.) play ALL THE TIME and should not be confused with the decision for a distributor to even carry the channel at all.

Right, but isn't that song and dance because the distributor doesn't think it is worthwhile to pay what the creator is asking (and then charging their customers, the viewers, more)? We're getting pretty deep into the business model, which I have a basic understanding of but don't care to know any more about. My only point was that it's not as simple as B1G saying "we have Rutgers, now BTN will automatically be broadcast to all NJ cable subscribers and we will generate revenue from each and every one of them regardless of if they ever watch our network" YES thought cable providers would have no choice do to oublic demand, but the cable providers made them negotiate and dragged the viewers through the process. Same with MSG. Quite possibly same will happen with BTN, or even worse because the public demand might not actually be there.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right, but isn't that song and dance because the distributor doesn't think it is worthwhile to pay what the creator is asking (and then charging their customers, the viewers, more)? We're getting pretty deep into the business model, which I have a basic understanding of but don't care to know any more about. My only point was that it's not as simple as B1G saying "we have Rutgers, now BTN will automatically be broadcast to all NJ cable subscribers and we will generate revenue from each and every one of them regardless of if they ever watch our network" YES thought cable providers would have no choice do to oublic demand, but the cable providers made them negotiate and dragged the viewers through the process. Same with MSG. Quite possibly same will happen with BTN, or even worse because the public demand might not actually be there.

As a point of information, YES, like BTN, is 49% owned by Fox. I would argue that BTN and Yes are also basically run day-to-day by Fox. You would think of anybody Fox would know better than anybody about the difficulties of cracking the NYC TV market and the differences between NYC and NJ. Then again, perhaps Rupert Murdoch's playing Captain Ahab to the NYC market's Moby Dick.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Alert Breezy - one, um, famous Holy Cross alum argues that they should be joining, in his words, the "Big Priest".

http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-triangle/post/_/id/54199/b-s-report-jacko-4

[breezy]

From everything I have read, I do not expect that to happen -- at least not in the immediate future.

[MplsBison]

Right, but isn't that song and dance because the distributor doesn't think it is worthwhile to pay what the creator is asking (and then charging their customers, the viewers, more)? We're getting pretty deep into the business model, which I have a basic understanding of but don't care to know any more about. My only point was that it's not as simple as B1G saying "we have Rutgers, now BTN will automatically be broadcast to all NJ cable subscribers and we will generate revenue from each and every one of them regardless of if they ever watch our network" YES thought cable providers would have no choice do to oublic demand, but the cable providers made them negotiate and dragged the viewers through the process. Same with MSG. Quite possibly same will happen with BTN, or even worse because the public demand might not actually be there.

Well I'm sorry if you took my postings to literally mean that Rutgers joining the Big Ten kicks off a mechanical, automated reaction that forces cable networks/distributors in NJ to carry BTN in their standard tier. That is not the case.

Yes, absolutely, of course - there will be negotiating. Lots of it. Probably with every major network in the state, just like what BTN went through in all of the current BTN states (Minn, Iowa, Wisc, Ill, IN, Mich, Ohio and PA). Even in those states, there are probably still some holdout networks (albeit I would guess only small and rural) that don't offer BTN on standard tier. But I would bet at least 95% of networks in those states now have it on standard tier. Actually, I would be interested to know the actual number - but it's probably as high as any major sports channel. Maybe not quite ESPN high, but high.


You are absolutely right about blackouts. The reason for the blackouts is money, plain and simple. The content creators want $Y per subscriber and the content distributors only want to pay $X per subscriber. If they don't meet in the middle, then either the creators kill the transmission to that distributor or the distributor kills the channel on their network. Both sides will then blame each other, sometimes with the content creators running commercials ("Find out the truth about why DISH customers can't receive the Big Ten Network!") and putting up websites and the content distributors putting up blackout screens on the channel directing the customer to the "real truth" on their own website.

[MplsBison]

From everything I have read, I do not expect that to happen -- at least not in the immediate future.

But now as a stand alone, Catholic, non-football league - the Big East would be a good fit for Holy Cross, yes?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You are absolutely right about blackouts. The reason for the blackouts is money, plain and simple. The content creators want $Y per subscriber and the content distributors only want to pay $X per subscriber. If they don't meet in the middle, then either the creators kill the transmission to that distributor or the distributor kills the channel on their network. Both sides will then blame each other, sometimes with the content creators running commercials ("Find out the truth about why DISH customers can't receive the Big Ten Network!") and putting up websites and the content distributors putting up blackout screens on the channel directing the customer to the "real truth" on their own website.

There's a key piece missing in this observation. Eco 1 tells us that if you raise the price of your product, the number of customers decreases. This is what the "content distributors" are seeing and why they're so resistant.

If they felt like they could jack up the price of their basic service and still have the same number of customers they'd do it in a heartbeat because it would suit everybody: their content creators would get $$$, customers would be happy, and the distributors would make $$. But especially in large metro areas like NY and LA jacking up the price any further will force people to look elsewhere that's cheaper - it's already expensive, with YES, Comcast and plenty of other specialty channels that are on the basic tier.

Pushing your way on North Dakota's basic tier is one thing - BTN is probably the second most popular sports channel in the state (way behind ESPN, though, of course), with NDSU athletics carried over-the-air. Pushing your way onto a cable system with MSG, YES and loads of other channels already there is different. Distributors in NY/NJ are worried about losing a huge number of customers over what is in effect repeated rate hikes.

[MplsBison]

Then drop the Style network or some other such garbage.

They'll figure it out. I have zero doubt that the BTN has a crack team already mapping out its sales/marketing strategy in New Jersey.

[Babar]

But especially in large metro areas like NY and LA jacking up the price any further will force people to look elsewhere that's cheaper - it's already expensive, with YES, Comcast and plenty of other specialty channels that are on the basic tier.

Pushing your way on North Dakota's basic tier is one thing - BTN is probably the second most popular sports channel in the state (way behind ESPN, though, of course), with NDSU athletics carried over-the-air. Pushing your way onto a cable system with MSG, YES and loads of other channels already there is different. Distributors in NY/NJ are worried about losing a huge number of customers over what is in effect repeated rate hikes.

Yes.

And not to belabor a much belabored point, or to bash good old RU, but state flagship means something very different in NJ than it means in the Midwest. Rutgers is not an aspirational school or a locus of nostalgia for locals like other B1G schools. Their alums aren't as engaged and their student body isn't as football-crazy. There's just less demand.

[MplsBison]

It's not like we're talking about rocket science here. Big organizations don't bet huge dollars on extremely risky ventures that are doomed to fail, like what you're talking about.

Seems like BTN paid some very smart people to think about this for a while....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not like we're talking about rocket science here. Big organizations don't bet huge dollars on extremely risky ventures that are doomed to fail, like what you're talking about.

Seems like BTN paid some very smart people to think about this for a while....

How's Uncle Rupie's MySpace investment working out?

[Nova09]

It's not like we're talking about rocket science here. Big organizations don't bet huge dollars on extremely risky ventures that are doomed to fail, like what you're talking about.

Seems like BTN paid some very smart people to think about this for a while....

Yeah, a big time conference would never hastily accept new members and then fall apart because of it!

(what's the topic of this thread again?)

[MplsBison]

Yeah, a big time conference would never hastily accept new members and then fall apart because of it!

(what's the topic of this thread again?)

Only team that left the Big Ten was Chicago back in 1946. There will never be a member of the Big Ten that leaves the conference in our lifetimes.

The Big East fell apart because all the good teams left.


The Big Ten is going to be able to bargain for more money per school from ESPN/ABC or whoever because they can claim they're in more media markets *AND* the BTN is going to be raking in more cash from more cable networks.

And that's still true even if they only end up getting BTN on standard tier in 50% of the networks in NJ and MD. It's not like they lose money if they don't accomplish 95% standard tier slotting, they just don't gain as much money.

[Go...gate]

From everything I have read, I do not expect that to happen -- at least not in the immediate future.

If you guys ever wanted to do it, this is the time. HC has the academic profile and history to add some value to that conference. Moreover, IMO, HC would not face the two decades of struggle which Fordham has faced in the A-10. You have access to better facilities and HC carries more credibility and potential as a program in the BE than many others.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sort-of like the eulogy of the Big East, but I love this quote from Cincinnati basketball coach Mick Cronin:

http://keepingscore.blogs.time.com/2013/03/15/dispatch-from-college-basketballs-big-funeral/


“Nobody cares about student-athletes,” Cincinnati coach Mick Cronin said after his team’s 62-43 loss to Georgetown. “All anybody cares about is money. Everybody in the NCAA, in college administration, they talk about academics and student-athletes. If people care about student-athletes, [former Big East school] West Virginia wouldn’t be in the Big 12 with two teams flying 800 miles to their closest home game. That’s really conducive to studying. The whole thing is a hypocrisy … The money has ruined it. If I was a fan, I’d be very disenchanted.”

Incidentally, I'm starting to really, really like the Georgetown basketball fans. Their hatred of Syracuse will be missed.

[MplsBison]

If you guys ever wanted to do it, this is the time. HC has the academic profile and history to add some value to that conference. Moreover, IMO, HC would not face the two decades of struggle which Fordham has faced in the A-10. You have access to better facilities and HC carries more credibility and potential as a program in the BE than many others.

So is there any chance that HC gets a legitimate look if the Big East expands from 7 to 12?

Seems like it's all about markets and the new Big East is in Chicago, Milwaukee, DC, Providence, NYC, NJ and Philly. Likely additions are Butler (Indianapolis), Xavier (Cincinati) and Creighton (Omaha).

Others rumored are St Louis and Dayton. Holy Cross would not get them in the Boston market technically, but somewhat close (although actually...doesn't look a whole lot closer than Providence on a map..)

One other thing, of those rumored to join - Butler is not a Catholic school while the rest (even StL and Dayton) are. Does that matter?

[Sandlapper Spike]

It doesn't really matter that Butler isn't Catholic. It's a hoops-first conference of private schools. Richmond was considered a legit candidate for the new Big East, and it isn't Catholic either.

[GannonFan]

So is there any chance that HC gets a legitimate look if the Big East expands from 7 to 12?

Seems like it's all about markets and the new Big East is in Chicago, Milwaukee, DC, Providence, NYC, NJ and Philly. Likely additions are Butler (Indianapolis), Xavier (Cincinati) and Creighton (Omaha).

Others rumored are St Louis and Dayton. Holy Cross would not get them in the Boston market technically, but somewhat close (although actually...doesn't look a whole lot closer than Providence on a map..)

One other thing, of those rumored to join - Butler is not a Catholic school while the rest (even StL and Dayton) are. Does that matter?

Butler not being Catholic doesn't matter - what the new Big East needs more than anything else is successful basketball programs, and it has to happen now. They're giving up all the NCAA credits and money that came from past tourney runs, and that's where they get most of their revenue from for their basketball programs (seeing how they don't have the football cash cow to feed from anymore). The Catholic 7, by itself, only has three schools of any real note in terms of recent success (Gtown, Marquette, and nova) and both Marquette and nova have been prone to periods of decline. The only way to have a chance to remain part of the basketball elite and not just a really good mid major type conference is to win coming out of the gate - Butler gives them a chance to do that (as does Xavier as well - the others, like St Louis and Dayton maybe not so much).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Butler not being Catholic doesn't matter - what the new Big East needs more than anything else is successful basketball programs, and it has to happen now. They're giving up all the NCAA credits and money that came from past tourney runs, and that's where they get most of their revenue from for their basketball programs (seeing how they don't have the football cash cow to feed from anymore). The Catholic 7, by itself, only has three schools of any real note in terms of recent success (Gtown, Marquette, and nova) and both Marquette and nova have been prone to periods of decline. The only way to have a chance to remain part of the basketball elite and not just a really good mid major type conference is to win coming out of the gate - Butler gives them a chance to do that (as does Xavier as well - the others, like St Louis and Dayton maybe not so much).

Lost in the discussion somewhat is that Xavier was a Sweet 16 team four of the last five years and made the Elite 8 in 2008. Xavier might be a religious school, but that NCAA success is what made them lockstep with Butler in these discussions.

[GannonFan]

Lost in the discussion somewhat is that Xavier was a Sweet 16 team four of the last five years and made the Elite 8 in 2008. Xavier might be a religious school, but that NCAA success is what made them lockstep with Butler in these discussions.

Yup, probably why I included them with Butler when saying the Big East needs these programs to carry the lackluster ones that make up most of the Catholic 7.

[MplsBison]

Yes, but Xavier is perfect. Great team, in a new, reasonably sized market and they're Catholic. Easy, automatic add.

How many great programs does this conference need? Gtown, Nova, Marquette and then Xavier would give a very talented, known top third of a 12 team conference.

At some point, with that talent base established, market and conference identity must have to factor in more than simply sheer wins. Crieghton is very successful, great attendance and they are Catholic. Butler isn't Catholic.

[GannonFan]

Yes, but Xavier is perfect. Great team, in a new, reasonably sized market and they're Catholic. Easy, automatic add.

How many great programs does this conference need? Gtown, Nova, Marquette and then Xavier would give a very talented, known top third of a 12 team conference.

At some point, with that talent base established, market and conference identity must have to factor in more than simply sheer wins. Crieghton is very successful, great attendance and they are Catholic. Butler isn't Catholic.

Unlike other conferences, that can fall back on the football dollars when basketball runs into a dry patch, this conference is entirely reliant on the basketball. They can't afford to have a nova go through a dry patch like they did as of late (missed the NCAA's last year, played to a lot of empty seats at the Wachovia last year and this). Butler is by far the most sure thing they either have or could have on the basketball front and on a wins part and since they are desperate for the money that comes from the NCAA tourney and making runs in the tourney, they need to make sure they do that right away. The new Big East can't afford to have a year like the Pac-10 (or Pac-12) had last year or the year before when they got one team in. That conference could stomach it since it had football dollars galore to cushion the fall - the Big East just has a cold hard floor if they run into problems winning basketball games.

[MplsBison]

Well nonetheless, talk is talk...until things happen.

Xavier, Butler, Creighton: in for 2013-14. No one else right away.


http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9058842/new-big-east-10-members-2013-14-according-sources

[MplsBison]

Creighton is really going to be out there on their own in 2013-14...kinda lonely.

Gotta add St. Louis. Makes too much sense as a bridge from Omaha to both Chicago and Indy/Cincy for the league. Heck, I'd add St Louis, Creighton and Xavier as the three - myself.


Then the question is, does it add anything to include Dayton or do you go for another A10 school in the NE and who?

If a NE school is in the cards...it really seems like Holy Cross could fit the bill. So long as they'd be allowed to keep football in the Patriot. And dare I say it might even spur Nova football to the Patriot League to join fellow conference mates HC and Gtown??

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People were shooing-in Creighton to the new Big Priest, which would make a lot of sense if you didn't own a map of the United States. They are simply too far away from the core schools to be a good fit. If you're going to ignore geography altogether, why not Gonzaga? They're miles better than Creighton.

Keeping geography in somewhat realistic limits puts the candidates back at Dayton, Richmond (which I think is a way better fit than people realize) and perhaps St. Louis. Holy Cross might have been a great fit in 1980 but despite Mr. Simmons' view not in 2013. Holy Cross brings neither current top-flight basketball nor a big media market. About all they provide is religious affiliation, and religious affiliation takes a back seat in this league to top-flight hoops.

[MplsBison]

People were shooing-in Creighton to the new Big Priest, which would make a lot of sense if you didn't own a map of the United States. They are simply too far away from the core schools to be a good fit. If you're going to ignore geography altogether, why not Gonzaga? They're miles better than Creighton.

Keeping geography in somewhat realistic limits puts the candidates back at Dayton, Richmond (which I think is a way better fit than people realize) and perhaps St. Louis. Holy Cross might have been a great fit in 1980 but despite Mr. Simmons' view not in 2013. Holy Cross brings neither current top-flight basketball nor a big media market. About all they provide is religious affiliation, and religious affiliation takes a back seat in this league to top-flight hoops.

I guess you missed the link...Crieghton is in, done deal starting 2013-14. They've been "shoo'ed".

And with that said, St Louis is basically essential for some geographical continuity from Cincy to Omaha. And since Butler and Xavier pretty much lock up the Cincy-Indy corridor, I don't see why Dayton would get much of a chance.

Richmond could work, but is not Catholic. Seems like if they want a Catholic, A10 school with a better market - why not go for Duquesne?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I will go as far as to say that adding Creighton could be the single stupidest thing the new Big East could have done and it might sink the new league.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I will go as far as to say that adding Creighton could be the single stupidest thing the new Big East could have done and it might sink the new league.

It's far from stupid, particularly if sugar daddy Fox suggested that adding the Omaha market might be a good idea. Creighton is arguably the best-supported "mid-major" hoops school in the country. This is going to be a basketball-first league. Creighton is hoops-centric, in a good market, has a great arena, and is at least a minor name brand in the sport. The geography isn't ideal, but if St. Louis is eventually coming on board too, then it isn't as big an issue.

I think Richmond is actually a good fit, too. The non-Catholic nature of the school isn't really a drawback. Not so sure about its arena.

Dayton does seem a bit redundant in terms of geography, but has a lot of advantages (arena, outstanding fan support, cares about hoops).

[henfan]

The fact that these far flung leagues are being put together to accommodate MBB is ludicrous. Wait until the bills come due from having to ship dozens of non-revenue teams half-way across the country several times a season, all to accommodate semi-pro men's hoops leagues like the Big Priest. It's madness and won't be sustainable over the long term.

[MplsBison]

It's far from stupid, particularly if sugar daddy Fox suggested that adding the Omaha market might be a good idea. Creighton is arguably the best-supported "mid-major" hoops school in the country. This is going to be a basketball-first league. Creighton is hoops-centric, in a good market, has a great arena, and is at least a minor name brand in the sport. The geography isn't ideal, but if St. Louis is eventually coming on board too, then it isn't as big an issue.

I think Richmond is actually a good fit, too. The non-Catholic nature of the school isn't really a drawback. Not so sure about its arena.

Dayton does seem a bit redundant in terms of geography, but has a lot of advantages (arena, outstanding fan support, cares about hoops).

Great post! It's only stupid because he was wrong ;)

Seriously though, if they're looking for markets - what about Duquesne? I have no idea if they're any good or have any good of facilities, but market fits the bill.

[Go...gate]

But for Villanova's snobbery (the Patriot League knows all about that) Saint Joseph's would have been the perfect fit.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Creighton last made the Sweet 16 in 1974. They are in a nothing market (75th, right below Spingfield, Missouri and right above Columbia, South Carolina). Now Creighton will need to truck all their sports halfway across the country and teams like Georgetown will be enjoying the delights of Nebraska in the winter. Tell me again, this is a good idea how?

[clenz]

You know nothing of Creighton...thats painfully obvious

Sent from the nexus of the universe

[Go...gate]

I agree. Creighton is a good school (another Jesuit institution) and has a pretty decent BB tradition. Xavier is also a good addition. But what is Butler doing in there?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I agree. Creighton is a good school (another Jesuit institution) and has a pretty decent BB tradition. Xavier is also a good addition. But what is Butler doing in there?

Good school. Bad geography. And again, if you're ignoring geography, why not go for Gonzaga?

[ccd494]

It's not driving the decision making, but the Big East w/ Creighton, and especially if they add St. Louis, is going to be one ****ing awesome college soccer conference. For that sport, at least, none of the schools will have any issue with the travel.

[DFW HOYA]

Creighton in, St. Louis out.

10 team league with Butler, X, and Creighton.

Three I-AA football teams (Nova, Gtown, Butler), but that's way, way off the radar, of course.

[clenz]

I really want the MVC to go after SLU hard...or Dayton...or both

I don't really want 12 in the MVC UNLESS it is Dayton, SLU, and say Belmont.

10 teams is a perfect conference set up. Perfect double round robin scheduling creates a true regular season champion. 10 teams to split NCAA money rather than 12.

9 teams is too hard to schedule, especially for the MVC with the bracket buster gone, bracket buster return games drying up, and the loss of the MWC/MVC Challenge. It was hard enough to get good OOC games for us in the MVC with playing 18 conference games, the MVC/MWC, and 2 bracketbuster set up games. Going to a 16 game conference slate with the loss of the challege and BB is impossible.

12 teams could work IF the teams we are add going to add NCAA units, not take them. SLU, Dayton, and Belmont would all challenge for NCAA spots and would make it worth going to 12, which would give us a division set up with a 16 game conference schedule....

That, honestly would be a step up in a big way from Creighton

[Lehigh Football Nation]

SLU would be a major coup for the MVC. Perfect geography. How possible is it?

[clenz]

SLU would be a major coup for the MVC. Perfect geography. How possible is it?
Honestly, not.

Majerus was all for going to the MVC...The conference is headquartered in St. Louis (2.5 miles from SLU's campus), the conference mens tourney is played in the Scotttrade Center (less than two miles from SLU's campus), the womens tourney just 20 minutes away in St. Charles, the geographic center of the MVC is just east of Hannibal, MO (about an hour north), within a 5 hour drive of every single school - sans Wichita State at 6.5.

The reason it won't happen, though is more likely than ever if they don't get in the new BE but not much, is that the higher ups at the university don't want to be associated with a bunch of regional (albeit very highly rated regional) universities. They have a lot of alums out east, and want to appeal to them.

HOWEVER, at this point the new A10 isn't better than the MVC, and if the MVC can talk them, Dayton, and Belmont or VCU into joining I could see it happening.


All that said, I'd put it at ±1.05%

[Model Citizen]

The MVC should avoid capricious SLU. Add just one member...top choice would be Dayton, second choice Belmont, third choice Loyola.

[MplsBison]

Creighton in, St. Louis out.

10 team league with Butler, X, and Creighton.

Three I-AA football teams (Nova, Gtown, Butler), but that's way, way off the radar, of course.

Out...for 2013. No way they add Creighton without a geographical bridge later on.

[DFW HOYA]

The schools are apparently OK at 10 because this assures round robin play. And it's not like St. Louis won't be there down the road, either.

[MplsBison]

The schools are apparently OK at 10 because this assures round robin play. And it's not like St. Louis won't be there down the road, either.

Like I've said, later on.

Stl will be a member with Creighton.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd rather have Temple and UMass (allowing them to park football in the MAC) than more far-flung schools, but that's why I don't make these decisions.

[ngineer]

I have not followed this all that closely, however I saw an article today talking about the 'new Big East' and it has Navy joining the new conference? I had not read anything about Navy withdrawing from the Patriot League. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but is this true?

[Laker]

I have not followed this all that closely, however I saw an article today talking about the 'new Big East' and it has Navy joining the new conference? I had not read anything about Navy withdrawing from the Patriot League. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but is this true?

Yah, I believe Navy is in for football only starting in 2015.

[DFW HOYA]

I have not followed this all that closely, however I saw an article today talking about the 'new Big East' and it has Navy joining the new conference? I had not read anything about Navy withdrawing from the Patriot League. Maybe I wasn't paying attention, but is this true?

Big East 2013-14 (10): Butler, Creighton, DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall, Villanova, Xavier

America 12/Metro 2013-14: (10): UCF, Cincinnati, Connecticut, Houston, Louisville, Memphis, Rutgers, SMU, S.Florida, Temple
Previously withdrew: Boise State, San Diego State
Out in 2014: Louisville, Rutgers, replaced by Tulane, East Carolina (FB only)
In in 2015: Navy (FB only)
Next likely expansion candidate: Tulsa

[ASUMountaineer]

Good school. Bad geography. And again, if you're ignoring geography, why not go for Gonzaga?

A sort of Catholic Challenge between the "Big Priest" and the WCC would be pretty interesting, I think.

[DFW HOYA]

A sort of Catholic Challenge between the "Big Priest" and the WCC would be pretty interesting, I think.

Not really. Outside of Gonzaga and St. Mary's, the talent level drops off significantly in the WCC. Pepperdine, Loyola, and San Francisco are closer to MAAC programs right now.

[ASUMountaineer]

Not really. Outside of Gonzaga and St. Mary's, the talent level drops off significantly in the WCC. Pepperdine, Loyola, and San Francisco are closer to MAAC programs right now.

The "Big Priest" certainly would have an advantage, but Gonzaga and St. Mary's playing some of those schools would be excellent matchups. Perhaps it would help lift some WCC programs.

[WH49er]

I'd rather have Temple and UMass (allowing them to park football in the MAC) than more far-flung schools, but that's why I don't make these decisions.


NBE wouldn't allow Temple to do that especially when Cincy and UConn are halfway out the door. Creighton also a much better program than UMass and 4x the attendance. Creighton, Butler, Marqutte, and St. Louis give the conference a strong Midwest presence.

[WH49er]

Not really. Outside of Gonzaga and St. Mary's, the talent level drops off significantly in the WCC. Pepperdine, Loyola, and San Francisco are closer to MAAC programs right now.


St. Mary's is about to drop off too with the recent sanctions leveled by the NCAA.

[MplsBison]

I could understand Navy joining the Big East in football when the conference still had teams like Louisville, Rutgers, Pitt and Syracuse, at least.

What's in it for them to shack up with basically Conference USA II? Are they thinking that they can legitimately win this conference and therefore have a shot at the BCS play-off auto-bid for the group of 5?

Otherwise, I can't see how their schedule wouldn't be better off as an independent.

[frozennorth]

it would be nice to see a NE football conference emerge, especially if it meant rutgers and maryland would GTFO of the big ten. army navy uconn umass buffalo rutgers temple maryland cincy. give them penn state too if penn state has such a big problem with the big 10.

[WH49er]

it would be nice to see a NE football conference emerge, especially if it meant rutgers and maryland would GTFO of the big ten. army navy uconn umass buffalo rutgers temple maryland cincy. give them penn state too if penn state has such a big problem with the big 10.


Nice to see? xlolx

[DFW HOYA]

it would be nice to see a NE football conference emerge, especially if it meant rutgers and maryland would GTFO of the big ten. army navy uconn umass buffalo rutgers temple maryland cincy. give them penn state too if penn state has such a big problem with the big 10.

There are 24 million reasons why Rutgers and Maryland are going west. (Maybe UNC and Virginia, too...)

[ngineer]

Yah, I believe Navy is in for football only starting in 2015.

OK--glad to see it's football only. They are a good member of the PL for all other sports. Of course, I think Army and Navy should join the PL for football and get over it.

[Laker]

I think Army and Navy should join the PL for football and get over it.

I thought that they might do the same- remember when they were in CUSA? But it sounds like the brass want the national exposure, especially playing Notre Dame. And they wouldn't want Air Force, the new kid on the block, to stay up with the big boys if Army and Navy cut back.

[Laker]

The "Big Priest"

When I read that, I think of a movie- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0822847/

[Go...gate]

I could understand Navy joining the Big East in football when the conference still had teams like Louisville, Rutgers, Pitt and Syracuse, at least.

What's in it for them to shack up with basically Conference USA II? Are they thinking that they can legitimately win this conference and therefore have a shot at the BCS play-off auto-bid for the group of 5?

Otherwise, I can't see how their schedule wouldn't be better off as an independent.

I agree - I can't help thinking Navy is having a dose of "cold feet" with all these changes. Navy actually played FB annually against most of the old BE schools - Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College and later, Rutgers. All such games are gone now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What would be truly ironic is if Navy made the exact same mistake Army did joining C-USA those many years ago by joining the America 12 - which is, essentially, the same makeup give or take a few teams as the original C-USA.

[MplsBison]

What would be truly ironic is if Navy made the exact same mistake Army did joining C-USA those many years ago by joining the America 12 - which is, essentially, the same makeup give or take a few teams as the original C-USA.

What was Army's mistake in being a member of CUSA football from 1998-2005? Just being non-competitive?

I tend to think that Navy could win the America 12 football conference.

And for the heck of it:

CUSA football in 1999:
Cincy
Louisville
UAB
Southern Miss
Tulane
Memphis
Houston
East Carolina
Army
(TCU joined 2001)
(South Florida joined 2003)

America 12 football in 2015 (assumed):
Cincy
UConn
Temple
Tulane
Memphis
Houston
East Carolina
SMU
South Florida
Central Florida
Navy
Tulsa

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What was Army's mistake in being a member of CUSA football from 1998-2005? Just being non-competitive?

I tend to think that Navy could win the America 12 football conference.

1997:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/11/sports/army-joins-its-first-conference-usa.html


''This is an exciting day for the Army football program,'' Coach Bob Sutton said. ''We are getting into an outstanding football conference with greater opportunities.''

The move is expected to give Army more national exposure while also giving it an opportunity to win an automatic bid to the Liberty Bowl, which goes to the Conference USA champion. It will also put all of Army's away games closer to some of its biggest fans, the soldiers.

''We will play all of our games away from Michie Stadium within a half-day's drive from eight of our major installations,'' said Lieut. Gen. Daniel Christman, the superintendent of the academy. ''Soldiers will have the chance to cheer, chant and maybe even chest-bump for the old Army team.''

Michael Slive, the Conference USA commissioner, said that discussions were under way to gain conference bids to other bowls in addition to the Liberty.

''Today, in intercollegiate athletics, Division I-A football is drawn by television revenue and the opportunity to play in bowl games,'' Sutton said. ''Now, all of that is in the hands of the conferences.''

2003:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/afteraction/2011/11/02/c-usa-memories-why-army-big-east-arent-a-match/


Army finished 10-2 in 1996, with a 10-1 regular-season record tarnished only by a road loss to Syracuse and an up-and-coming Chunky soup spokesman. The next year, the Black Knights announced they’d begin play in Conference USA in 1998.

From 1998 to 2004, the Black Knights finished 9-41 in conference action. After going 1-11 overall in 2002, they dropped all 13 games in 2003. It’s the worst season possible under current NCAA rules: Teams are allowed 12 regular-season games a year, but can tack on a 13th if they play at Hawaii, to help cover the cost of the road trip.

Army pulled the plug on C-USA membership before its dreadful 2003 season. Superintendent Lt. Gen. William J. Lennox Jr. cited a number of reasons for the move, including an inflexible schedule and the failure to cash in on the C-USA’s guaranteed bowl bids.

Last year’s 7-6 mark was the first time Army cracked .500 since its experiment with conference play. Army Athletic Director Boo Kerrigan didn’t sound thrilled with the prospect of big-time conference college football. It’s not hard to see why Kerrigan and Army faithful would wish the other service academies the best, but stay independent.

[MplsBison]

I agree - I can't help thinking Navy is having a dose of "cold feet" with all these changes. Navy actually played FB annually against most of the old BE schools - Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Boston College and later, Rutgers. All such games are gone now.

Right. But is Navy's AD on record anywhere saying more or less anything about Big East football since all the changes started happening? I don't think I've read anything from Navy, at least since Boise and San Diego St backed out.

Seems like everyone still has them penciled in. And I'm just wondering why. It must have to do with post season opportunities that won't be granted to non-Notre Dame independents.

And if so, wonder if that means anything for BYU as well? Big XII?

[MplsBison]

1997:

http://www.nytimes.com/1997/03/11/sports/army-joins-its-first-conference-usa.html



2003:

http://militarytimes.com/blogs/afteraction/2011/11/02/c-usa-memories-why-army-big-east-arent-a-match/

Ok, so it was just being non-competitive.

Navy can win the America 12.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ok, so it was just being non-competitive.

Navy can win the America 12.

Yes, they could. But will they?

Also, it's a different landscape than it was years ago in terms of bowl tie-ins. There are essentially three bowls with open invites to Navy should they go 6-6 - the Poinsettia (San Diego), Hawaii, and Military (Dallas) bowls, two with very close ties to major Navy bases. What are they really gaining with America 12 membership, an extra shot at the Belk Bowl? Certainly not a shot at the plus-one playoff.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Unlike some PL folks, I think it wholly appropriate that Army and Navy remain in FBS as football independents. Football remains a huge recruiting tool (and I don't mean football) for the Academies and I would never wish to remove their possibility from playing Notre Dame, Air Force or even San Diego State in order to head to FCS. It would be nice if Army and Navy threw the occasional home matchup against PL teams in there, however.

I also think Army and Navy should remain independents. There is simply no reason competitively to join a podunk FBS conference. They have a good TV deal with CBS, and Army/Navy pays well. If they're 12-0 or 11-1 with their schedule they'll have a shot to play in the plus-one anyway, and otherwise they have guaranteed bowls, essentially, anyway, so why do it?

[MplsBison]

Yes, they could. But will they?

Also, it's a different landscape than it was years ago in terms of bowl tie-ins. There are essentially three bowls with open invites to Navy should they go 6-6 - the Poinsettia (San Diego), Hawaii, and Military (Dallas) bowls, two with very close ties to major Navy bases. What are they really gaining with America 12 membership, an extra shot at the Belk Bowl? Certainly not a shot at the plus-one playoff.

Any conference champion of the Sun Belt, CUSA, MWC, MAC or America 12 has a legitimate shot at the playoff.

You might recall that Northern Illinois was in the BCS this past season. So don't be dishonest just because it doesn't suit your agenda.

[MplsBison]

Unlike some PL folks, I think it wholly appropriate that Army and Navy remain in FBS as football independents. Football remains a huge recruiting tool (and I don't mean football) for the Academies and I would never wish to remove their possibility from playing Notre Dame, Air Force or even San Diego State in order to head to FCS. It would be nice if Army and Navy threw the occasional home matchup against PL teams in there, however.

I also think Army and Navy should remain independents. There is simply no reason competitively to join a podunk FBS conference. They have a good TV deal with CBS, and Army/Navy pays well. If they're 12-0 or 11-1 with their schedule they'll have a shot to play in the plus-one anyway, and otherwise they have guaranteed bowls, essentially, anyway, so why do it?

That's the part of the equation we don't know, actually. Hence my questioning: what is going to happen to non-Notre Dame independents with the new playoff??

We know that the conference champions from the group of five will have a guaranteed spot in the playoff. But does that same invitation apply to BYU, Army or Navy if they finished ranked ahead of all five conference champions? My guess is, no it does not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Any conference champion of the Sun Belt, CUSA, MWC, MAC or America 12 has a legitimate shot at the playoff.

You might recall that Northern Illinois was in the BCS this past season. So don't be dishonest just because it doesn't suit your agenda.

I might recall that NIU made the BCS field thanks to the BCS formula, which is going away in favor of a smoke-filled room. The probability that 12-0 NIU makes it in over, say, 11-1 Ohio State and 11-1 Texas is next to zero. They might not even make it in the discussion with 10-2 Alabama or 11-1 Virginia Tech ahead of them.

[nwFL Griz]

That's the part of the equation we don't know, actually. Hence my questioning: what is going to happen to non-Notre Dame independents with the new playoff??

We know that the conference champions from the group of five will have a guaranteed spot in the playoff. But does that same invitation apply to BYU, Army or Navy if they finished ranked ahead of all five conference champions? My guess is, no it does not.

No they don't. They are guaranteed a spot in one of the big bowls not being used as playoffs (Orange, Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, Cotton(?)). The playoff participants will still be the top 4, yet to be determined how those will be chosen.

[MplsBison]

No they don't. They are guaranteed a spot in one of the big bowls not being used as playoffs (Orange, Rose, Fiesta, Sugar, Cotton(?)). The playoff participants will still be the top 4, yet to be determined how those will be chosen.

My apologies, you are correct and I was wrong.

I was conflating the "new BCS" with the "new playoff", which as you correctly explained is not the same thing.


That said, the highest conference champion from the group of five champions has a guaranteed spot in the "new BCS" - ie, the big five bowl games.

It's still possible, though very unlikely, that said 'king of the group of five' could be ranked in the top four and I think we will see that within the first rotation. Too compelling of a story for TV not to get its way there...

[MplsBison]

I might recall that NIU made the BCS field thanks to the BCS formula, which is going away in favor of a smoke-filled room. The probability that 12-0 NIU makes it in over, say, 11-1 Ohio State and 11-1 Texas is next to zero. They might not even make it in the discussion with 10-2 Alabama or 11-1 Virginia Tech ahead of them.

Sorry, I meant the "new BCS" (ie, the top five bowls). The highest ranked champion from the group of five has a guaranteed spot in one of those games. That's a significant improvement over the current BCS, where they only had a guaranteed spot if they were ranked in the top 16 and higher than the lowest ranked BCS conf champion (usually the Big East).

No doubt it will be difficult for the 'king of the group of five' to get into the top 4...but that will be no more difficult than for such a team to crack the top two in the current BCS formula.

You know these things very well.

[SpiritCymbal]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/21913073/navy-to-retain-rights-to-home-games-through-17-in-new-big-east

Sounds like the chips might start moving over the next month. Navy still in for "American 12" (or whatever they call it) and the Tulsa rumors will start back up.


The new Big East (or whatever it is named) will be at 10 teams for 2013. Navy would be the 11th school in 2015. There have been various reports that Tulsa or Massachusetts could be the 12th member.

“We are looking at expansion. I haven't made any secret of it,” Aresco said. “We obviously wanted to wait until conference tournaments were over until we start the process in earnest.”

[MplsBison]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/21913073/navy-to-retain-rights-to-home-games-through-17-in-new-big-east

Sounds like the chips might start moving over the next month. Navy still in for "American 12" (or whatever they call it) and the Tulsa rumors will start back up.

To me you left out the most interesting part of that story: Navy is keeping the TV rights to its home football games within the newly announced TV deal between the America 12 and ESPN. Its home game package will stay with CBS, including the Army/Navy game and home games with Notre Dame (next home game being played at FedEx Field).

That said, it doesn't mention if Navy is still going to get some of that ESPN money or if they're essentially on their own with CBS and the conference membership is basically just a scheduling agreement. If they do end up geting some ESPN money from the America 12 - what a pretty friggin' sweet deal considering that UConn, Cincy and South Florida are still going to be in the conference and aren't getting anything like that.


Lastly, it does nothing to solve the question of "why does Navy still want in?" Especially if they're on their own for TV money with CBS. All it's doing in such a case is setting their schedule for 8 games per season to be vs. former CUSA teams. Why does that help them -- unless, like I've said, being the champion of the America 12 is the only or best way to secure their post season.

And if that is true - why not add Army as the 12th team instead of Tulsa or UMass? Is Army that burned/scared of their previous CUSA experience to turn down a spot in the America 12? Should they forgo potentially greater postseason access to control their own regular season scheduling?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To me you left out the most interesting part of that story: Navy is keeping the TV rights to its home football games within the newly announced TV deal between the America 12 and ESPN. Its home game package will stay with CBS, including the Army/Navy game and home games with Notre Dame (next home game being played at FedEx Field).

That said, it doesn't mention if Navy is still going to get some of that ESPN money or if they're essentially on their own with CBS and the conference membership is basically just a scheduling agreement. If they do end up geting some ESPN money from the America 12 - what a pretty friggin' sweet deal considering that UConn, Cincy and South Florida are still going to be in the conference and aren't getting anything like that.


Lastly, it does nothing to solve the question of "why does Navy still want in?" Especially if they're on their own for TV money with CBS. All it's doing in such a case is setting their schedule for 8 games per season to be vs. former CUSA teams. Why does that help them -- unless, like I've said, being the champion of the America 12 is the only or best way to secure their post season.

And if that is true - why not add Army as the 12th team instead of Tulsa or UMass? Is Army that burned/scared of their previous CUSA experience to turn down a spot in the America 12? Should they forgo potentially greater postseason access to control their own regular season scheduling?

At most, and it stands to reason that Navy as a football-only member without home games or OOC matchups would not get the full allotment, math dictates that each school is getting $1.7 million per annum for both football and basketball.

Like I've said, Navy has multiple paths to secure a bowl berth as a military-themed independent. They have no need for Big Least on that score.

I can also say the USMA and USNA are not motivated by money. $1.7 million in the athletic department means nothing to them in the long term. They are motivated much, much more by exposure and academy recruiting. If they feel matchups with SMU and East Carolina further that goal (and I'm not saying they don't), it makes some sense to join this league.

This whole agreement, though, is predicated on one huge caveat:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9071683/big-east-media-rights-deal-terminated-two-more-school-exits-according-sources


If the Big East loses two more schools to conference realignment, the league's seven-year media rights deal can be terminated, industry sources told ESPN.

The seven-year deal with the conference that will lose seven Catholic schools and ultimately the name Big East is worth $126 million, sources said.

Last month, ESPN matched an offer made by NBC Sports Network and was awarded the Big East's media rights. Because ESPN is the primary rights holder, it was able to retain the conference's media rights simply by matching the league's best offer.

The seven-year deal included a stipulation that it could be terminated if the league lost two more schools, sources said. ESPN could only match NBC Sports Network's deal and not change the language of the contract, sources said.

NBC Sports Network's contract divided the league into Group A (Connecticut, Cincinnati, Houston and Temple) and Group B (the remaining members), sources said.

The media rights deal can be terminated if either two Group A schools leave or one Group A and one Group B school leave. If two Group B schools leave, the contract will be renegotiated, sources said.

So UNC and Virginia go to Big 10... and then the ACC takes UConn and Cincy... media deal over.

Or in other words... if UNC and Virginia go to Fox.. and then ESPN shuffles UConn and Cincy into the ACC... media deal over.

[DFW HOYA]

"The seven-year deal with the conference that will lose seven Catholic schools and ultimately the name Big East is worth $126 million, sources said."

Meanwhile, Big East 3.0 will sign a 12 year, $500 million contract with Fox that could grow to $600 million. Meanwhile, UConn's TV revenues are dropping by nearly 50% under the ESPN deal.

With numbers like these, UConn and Cincinnati will take the first bus out of the America 12, even it meant joining West Virginia in the Big 12.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Meanwhile, Big East 3.0 will sign a 12 year, $500 million contract with Fox that could grow to $600 million. Meanwhile, UConn's TV revenues are dropping by nearly 50% under the ESPN deal.

With numbers like these, UConn and Cincinnati will take the first bus out of the America 12, even it meant joining West Virginia in the Big 12.

Temple desperately needs to stay hitched to UConn and Cincy.

The only good thing about the BE falling apart is the term Mid-Major is basically obsolete again,

[Sandlapper Spike]

Unlike some PL folks, I think it wholly appropriate that Army and Navy remain in FBS as football independents. Football remains a huge recruiting tool (and I don't mean football) for the Academies and I would never wish to remove their possibility from playing Notre Dame, Air Force or even San Diego State in order to head to FCS. It would be nice if Army and Navy threw the occasional home matchup against PL teams in there, however.

I also think Army and Navy should remain independents. There is simply no reason competitively to join a podunk FBS conference. They have a good TV deal with CBS, and Army/Navy pays well. If they're 12-0 or 11-1 with their schedule they'll have a shot to play in the plus-one anyway, and otherwise they have guaranteed bowls, essentially, anyway, so why do it?

If you want to read a series of posts from a Navy fan/alum who explains why joining a conference in football may be necessary, I recommend The Birddog:

http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/01/31/changing-course-part-1/
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/02/05/changing-course-part-2-the-opposition/
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/02/14/changing-course-part-3-cynical-knee-jerk-opposition/
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/03/18/changing-course-part-4-faq/
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/04/11/changing-course-part-5-television-and-the-top-tier/
http://thebirddog.wordpress.com/2012/04/29/changing-course-part-6-faq-continued/

[MplsBison]

At most, and it stands to reason that Navy as a football-only member without home games or OOC matchups would not get the full allotment, math dictates that each school is getting $1.7 million per annum for both football and basketball.

Like I've said, Navy has multiple paths to secure a bowl berth as a military-themed independent. They have no need for Big Least on that score.

I can also say the USMA and USNA are not motivated by money. $1.7 million in the athletic department means nothing to them in the long term. They are motivated much, much more by exposure and academy recruiting. If they feel matchups with SMU and East Carolina further that goal (and I'm not saying they don't), it makes some sense to join this league.

This whole agreement, though, is predicated on one huge caveat:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9071683/big-east-media-rights-deal-terminated-two-more-school-exits-according-sources


So UNC and Virginia go to Big 10... and then the ACC takes UConn and Cincy... media deal over.

Or in other words... if UNC and Virginia go to Fox.. and then ESPN shuffles UConn and Cincy into the ACC... media deal over.

Good post, good link - can't say I disagree with pretty much anything you said.


So then...why is Navy still joining the conference? They don't need the money, which they're going to have their own deal anyway and probably get little to none of the ESPN money, they have a path to bowl games that want service academies and the league match-ups are mostly uncompelling.

Why are they still joining? And if there is a good reason, why isn't Army slated to become number 12? Something is missing...

[MplsBison]

Meanwhile, Big East 3.0 will sign a 12 year, $500 million contract with Fox that could grow to $600 million. Meanwhile, UConn's TV revenues are dropping by nearly 50% under the ESPN deal.

With numbers like these, UConn and Cincinnati will take the first bus out of the America 12, even it meant joining West Virginia in the Big 12.

Do you mean UConn's basketball TV revenues are dropping 50%? Or you mean their total TV revenues going from the former Big East to the America 12 are dropping 50%? Genuine question, because I don't know.


Obviously, they feel football is too important to leave as an independent and they don't think any other group of 5 conference would take them as football only. Seems like the MAC would, so they must feel that's not acceptable.

Must be praying nightly for an ACC invite.

[MplsBison]

Temple desperately needs to stay hitched to UConn and Cincy.

The only good thing about the BE falling apart is the term Mid-Major is basically obsolete again,

For Temple to get an ACC invite after UConn and Cincy -- probably means the ACC has collapsed. It could essentially at that point be like joining the former Big East.

[DFW HOYA]

Do you mean UConn's basketball TV revenues are dropping 50%? Or you mean their total TV revenues going from the former Big East to the America 12 are dropping 50%? Genuine question, because I don't know.

Under the expiring ESPN agreement with the Big East, the conference TV revenues were split between football schools earning around $3.4 million per year, basketball schools roughly $1.7 million each.

Under the new ESPN agreement, Connecticut will earn $1.8 million for football and basketball combined, or roughly half as much as the old deal. Should UConn get the nod for the ACC, that number would jump to $15-17 million annually. The $1.8 is still a jump for the C-USA schools, but it's a drop for USF, Cincinnati, and UConn.

(By contrast, Georgetown will go from $1.7 million per year under ESPN to just over $4.1 million with the Fox Sports One agreement.)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

For Temple to get an ACC invite after UConn and Cincy -- probably means the ACC has collapsed. It could essentially at that point be like joining the former Big East.

What makes Cincy more attractive than Temple?

Our "peers" are Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati, Charlotte, NC State, USF etc. We are all large, urban, high quality public research universities with solid athletic programs. Sorry Memphis, you're a four year junior college.

Sent from a phone...

[MplsBison]

Under the expiring ESPN agreement with the Big East, the conference TV revenues were split between football schools earning around $3.4 million per year, basketball schools roughly $1.7 million each.

Under the new ESPN agreement, Connecticut will earn $1.8 million for football and basketball combined, or roughly half as much as the old deal. Should UConn get the nod for the ACC, that number would jump to $15-17 million annually. The $1.8 is still a jump for the C-USA schools, but it's a drop for USF, Cincinnati, and UConn.

(By contrast, Georgetown will go from $1.7 million per year under ESPN to just over $4.1 million with the Fox Sports One agreement.)

Fair enough. Tough to believe that Gtown & Nova are going to make more money on basketball only than UConn is going to make on football and basketball, given the previous situations.

Obviously, UConn is hoping for that ACC invite.


It's tough for me to see the B1G not taking one or two ACC teams...just a question of when. They're planning new geographic divisions for 2014 and then a nine game conference schedule in football for 2016. Not that any of that couldn't be adjusted. Just throw Indiana and Purdue in the west division with Virginia/UNC/GT in the east.

[MplsBison]

What makes Cincy more attractive than Temple?

Our "peers" are Pitt, Louisville, Cincinnati, Charlotte, NC State, USF etc. We are all large, urban, high quality public research universities with solid athletic programs. Sorry Memphis, you're a four year junior college.

Sent from a phone...

I'd say probably nothing more than Cincy is a bigger, better, more known football brand than Temple. And they have their own stadium (though they do and can play games in the NFL stadium). Will Temple be able to play games in the Eagles' stadium much longer? I thought you had mentioned something about that not happening before?

[DFW HOYA]

ESPN is laughing all the way to the bank with its predatory tactics. A quick summary:

1. Big East was making $40 million across 16 schools with its old deal.
2. ESPN offered $110 million for new contract, but NBC was offering upwards of $200 million if the Big East opened it up to bid.
3. Big East opens the contract to bid, whereupon ESPN steers Pitt and Syracuse to ACC soon thereafter.**
4. As NBC prepares its offer, ESPN gets ACC to add Louisville and Notre Dame, further diminishing the contract's value.
5. Basketball schools get nervous about what they will get and negotiate their way out.
6. NBC revises its offer down to just $20 million, ESPN exercises right of first refusal.
7. A $110 million offer now costs ESPN just $20 million, with an easy out if they want someone else to go to the ACC. They also help keep NBC/Comcast out of the conference rightsholders business because there are no pending contracts in major Division I conferences into heading into the 2020's for NBC/Comcast to outbid them.


**Yes, ESPN steered Pitt and Syracuse to the ACC. The Boston College athletic director was on record when he commented that "ESPN told us what to do" about adding schools. He later said his comments were taken out of context.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You can also argue that ESPN basically drove Fox into overpaying for their old asset, the Big Priest schools.

By devaluing the Big East on both the football and basketball fronts - and Fox needing something to breath life into their rebranded network - Fox likely bought high for the Big Priest and ESPN was able to renegotiate the Big Least football school contract to be a pittance and to essentially use it as a minor league for the ACC.

And if Fox fights back by buying UNC and Virginia for the B1G, they protect the ACC by sliding Big Least schools right in there.

And people wonder why I prefer FCS football.

[MplsBison]

ESPN is laughing all the way to the bank with its predatory tactics. A quick summary:

1. Big East was making $40 million across 16 schools with its old deal.
2. ESPN offered $110 million for new contract, but NBC was offering upwards of $200 million if the Big East opened it up to bid.
3. Big East opens the contract to bid, whereupon ESPN steers Pitt and Syracuse to ACC soon thereafter.**
4. As NBC prepares its offer, ESPN gets ACC to add Louisville and Notre Dame, further diminishing the contract's value.
5. Basketball schools get nervous about what they will get and negotiate their way out.
6. NBC revises its offer down to just $20 million, ESPN exercises right of first refusal.
7. A $110 million offer now costs ESPN just $20 million, with an easy out if they want someone else to go to the ACC. They also help keep NBC/Comcast out of the conference rightsholders business because there are no pending contracts in major Division I conferences into heading into the 2020's for NBC/Comcast to outbid them.


**Yes, ESPN steered Pitt and Syracuse to the ACC. The Boston College athletic director was on record when he commented that "ESPN told us what to do" about adding schools. He later said his comments were taken out of context.

Interesting conspiracy theory!

[MplsBison]

You can also argue that ESPN basically drove Fox into overpaying for their old asset, the Big Priest schools.

By devaluing the Big East on both the football and basketball fronts - and Fox needing something to breath life into their rebranded network - Fox likely bought high for the Big Priest and ESPN was able to renegotiate the Big Least football school contract to be a pittance and to essentially use it as a minor league for the ACC.

And if Fox fights back by buying UNC and Virginia for the B1G, they protect the ACC by sliding Big Least schools right in there.

And people wonder why I prefer FCS football.

Yes, much better to be never talked about and ignored by the national media.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As fascinating as the Big Priest/Big Least stuff is, one of the dominoes is Creighton to the Big Priest, which affects the Missouri Valley. Who might join up? An interesting thought with an FCS football team might be Eastern Illinois, though they don't offer anything in basketball. If basketball is the primary concern, Oakland (MI) might be a better choice.

[BisonFan02]

As fascinating as the Big Priest/Big Least stuff is, one of the dominoes is Creighton to the Big Priest, which affects the Missouri Valley. Who might join up? An interesting thought with an FCS football team might be Eastern Illinois, though they don't offer anything in basketball. If basketball is the primary concern, Oakland (MI) might be a better choice.

Oral Roberts for bball and baseball if the valley needs to go after one team....bball rules the conference.

[DFW HOYA]

ESPN didn't affect the Fox bid at all, but ESPN drove NBC to offer such a low number that ESPN knew it could pick it up for pennies. Imagine how small the basketball share would have been had the schools stayed.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

ESPN didn't affect the Fox bid at all, but ESPN drove NBC to offer such a low number that ESPN knew it could pick it up for pennies. Imagine how small the basketball share would have been had the schools stayed.

They didn't directly but they had to know that Fox would bid high on their Big Priest inventory, and that had to be part of the calculus IMO. Fox Sports One was desperate for programming, and ESPN is hemmoraging programming. Think about this: they basically paid 2x the old value of what was essentially ESPN's B material programming at this point.

More to the point - who will notice that Big East hoops are off of ESPN, with all their ACC hoops and other hoops during the year? Not many people, I'd bet.

[nwFL Griz]

ESPN is laughing all the way to the bank with its predatory tactics. A quick summary:

1. Big East was making $40 million across 16 schools with its old deal.
2. ESPN offered $110 million for new contract, but NBC was offering upwards of $200 million if the Big East opened it up to bid.
3. Big East opens the contract to bid, whereupon ESPN steers Pitt and Syracuse to ACC soon thereafter.**
4. As NBC prepares its offer, ESPN gets ACC to add Louisville and Notre Dame, further diminishing the contract's value.
5. Basketball schools get nervous about what they will get and negotiate their way out.
6. NBC revises its offer down to just $20 million, ESPN exercises right of first refusal.
7. A $110 million offer now costs ESPN just $20 million, with an easy out if they want someone else to go to the ACC. They also help keep NBC/Comcast out of the conference rightsholders business because there are no pending contracts in major Division I conferences into heading into the 2020's for NBC/Comcast to outbid them.


**Yes, ESPN steered Pitt and Syracuse to the ACC. The Boston College athletic director was on record when he commented that "ESPN told us what to do" about adding schools. He later said his comments were taken out of context.

Except #4 had nothing to do with NBC preparing its offer. The ACC added Louisville as a response to losing Maryland to the B1G (maybe ESPN suggested L'ville, maybe not, most seem to think this was a move to keep FSU and Clemson from bolting to the b12). ND then left, on their own, after seeing the BE as something they didn't want to be part of anymore. Their landing spot being the ACC is inconsequential. Lots of smoke about them landing in the B12 just as easily as the ACC.

All that said, ESPN has way too much influence in how this whole thing went down.

[MplsBison]

As fascinating as the Big Priest/Big Least stuff is, one of the dominoes is Creighton to the Big Priest, which affects the Missouri Valley. Who might join up? An interesting thought with an FCS football team might be Eastern Illinois, though they don't offer anything in basketball. If basketball is the primary concern, Oakland (MI) might be a better choice.

I would think Belmont or Murray, if anyone from the OVC.

Otherwise, Horizon school. Doubt any A10 school would leave for the MVC - especially not Saint Louis, which is bound for the Big East to pair with Creighton in a couple years, I think.

[MplsBison]

Except #4 had nothing to do with NBC preparing its offer. The ACC added Louisville as a response to losing Maryland to the B1G (maybe ESPN suggested L'ville, maybe not, most seem to think this was a move to keep FSU and Clemson from bolting to the b12). ND then left, on their own, after seeing the BE as something they didn't want to be part of anymore. Their landing spot being the ACC is inconsequential. Lots of smoke about them landing in the B12 just as easily as the ACC.

All that said, ESPN has way too much influence in how this whole thing went down.

Which is why the coming market correction of more networks putting up serious competition in college athletics is sufficient.

One doesn't need to hold a personal grudge against the FBS subdivision.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'd say probably nothing more than Cincy is a bigger, better, more known football brand than Temple. And they have their own stadium (though they do and can play games in the NFL stadium). Will Temple be able to play games in the Eagles' stadium much longer? I thought you had mentioned something about that not happening before?

Cincinnati has its own stadium but it's small and there's almost no way to expand. It's basically a clone of the Glass Bowl at Toledo. Granted, they have hosted games at the Bengals stadium so that's obviously an option.

I believe our lease at the Linc ends after the 2016 season. There had been relatively serious talk about building an on campus stadium. However, I haven't heard anything regarding that matter in well over a year.

We can draw decent for "named" teams, decent being 35-45k. Unfortunately, games against SMU, Tulsa etc. will be lucky to break 20k even if the Owls are having a solid season. I don't think Cincannati is too much difference. They don't pack 'em either unless the Bearcats are in the Top 25 and it's a nationally televised game.

I really think Temple needs to consider dropping football if they can't find a suitable conference with like minded institutions. With that said, I was perfectly happy with the MAC/A10 arrangement. Honestly, if the MAC could attract another quality hoops school I would not be opposed to an all sports membership. No matter what though, we're a basketball school first and foremost and that has to be protected.

[Nova09]

official word of what we all knew

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9074722/new-big-east-adds-butler-bulldogs-creighton-bluejays-xavier-musketeers

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

official word of what we all knew

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9074722/new-big-east-adds-butler-bulldogs-creighton-bluejays-xavier-musketeers

The only "good" thing to come out of this is the term Mid-Major is obsolete.

[WH49er]

The only "good" thing to come out of this is the term Mid-Major is obsolete.


I am hoping we can still apply that term to CUSA. With Charlotte, Southern Miss, Middle Tennessee State, UTEP, ODU, UAB and possibly Western Kentucky the league has a nice mix of traditional basketball schools and schools with recent success. I would say most years it is a 2-bid league but could get 3-4 bids some years if things play out right.




VCU is really the one getting screwed here.

[Laker]

official word of what we all knew

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9074722/new-big-east-adds-butler-bulldogs-creighton-bluejays-xavier-musketeers

That gives them ten- will they expand more, and if so, who and when?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I am hoping we can still apply that term to CUSA. With Charlotte, Southern Miss, Middle Tennessee State, UTEP, ODU, UAB and possibly Western Kentucky the league has a nice mix of traditional basketball schools and schools with recent success. I would say most years it is a 2-bid league but could get 3-4 bids some years if things play out right.




VCU is really the one getting screwed here.

The at-large field will decrease by one with the formation of the new league. So that will have a bit of a trickle down effect.

I'm really interested to see how ESPN and the media look at these conferences now. IMO, it's similar to the 1990's when you had power programs sprinkled about in the Metro, Midwest, A10, WAC etc. Back then it was about the teams and not the conferences. Hopefully that's how things are looked upon again.

[MplsBison]

Cincinnati has its own stadium but it's small and there's almost no way to expand. It's basically a clone of the Glass Bowl at Toledo. Granted, they have hosted games at the Bengals stadium so that's obviously an option.

I believe our lease at the Linc ends after the 2016 season. There had been relatively serious talk about building an on campus stadium. However, I haven't heard anything regarding that matter in well over a year.

We can draw decent for "named" teams, decent being 35-45k. Unfortunately, games against SMU, Tulsa etc. will be lucky to break 20k even if the Owls are having a solid season. I don't think Cincannati is too much difference. They don't pack 'em either unless the Bearcats are in the Top 25 and it's a nationally televised game.

I really think Temple needs to consider dropping football if they can't find a suitable conference with like minded institutions. With that said, I was perfectly happy with the MAC/A10 arrangement. Honestly, if the MAC could attract another quality hoops school I would not be opposed to an all sports membership. No matter what though, we're a basketball school first and foremost and that has to be protected.

So what do you think about America 12 hoops with UConn, Cincy and Memphis? Not sure if it's better than the A10 without Butler, Xavier, St Louis and Dayton (assuming the last two go to the Big East), but probably?


I pretty much agree with that you said about Temple vs. Cincy football. In reality, they're not too much different. In perception, though, Cincy has been in the Big East for a while and has had some good years there (including the BCS bowl year). Temple is just getting to the Big East now and hasn't had any breakthrough bowl year.

That's probably the only thing Cincy can market over Temple, and no doubt they'd slash, rip and claw their way to an ACC invite using any such perceived advantage if it meant the difference between $2million/year and $15-17million/year!

[MplsBison]

official word of what we all knew

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9074722/new-big-east-adds-butler-bulldogs-creighton-bluejays-xavier-musketeers

This strikes me as an odd quote:


"We also believe that the landscape of college sports has not stopped morphing, and that there may be some more movement out there. So for now we're very happy at 10, and we'll see what happens going forward."

The new Big East is at the top of food chain as far as basketball-only DI schools are concerned. It would seem, in plucking Butler, Xavier and Creighton, that they can literally have their pick of the litter from conferences like the A10, MVC and CAA.

So that just makes me wonder...what possibly shift or morphing could occur such that it would shake out an even more advantageous potential member for the Big East??

I don't see any shaking that would have UConn going from the America 12 to the Big East....the only move there is to the ACC. And any ACC school would want a home for football.

What is he talking about??

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So what do you think about America 12 hoops with UConn, Cincy and Memphis? Not sure if it's better than the A10 without Butler, Xavier, St Louis and Dayton (assuming the last two go to the Big East), but probably?


I pretty much agree with that you said about Temple vs. Cincy football. In reality, they're not too much different. In perception, though, Cincy has been in the Big East for a while and has had some good years there (including the BCS bowl year). Temple is just getting to the Big East now and hasn't had any breakthrough bowl year.

That's probably the only thing Cincy can market over Temple, and no doubt they'd slash, rip and claw there way to an ACC invite using any such perceived advantage if it meant the difference between $2million/year and $15-17million/year!

I'm fine with the American 12 as long as UConn and Cincy stay. However, without them there's little to no benefit of being in that conference. I'd much rather an all sports membership in the MAC. Logistically it makes sense and I like being associated with quality academic schools like Miami(OH), Ohio and Buffalo. Generally speaking, Temple fits the MAC profile a lot more than we do the American 12 without UConn and Cincy.

I really liked the MAC for football. It allowed our alums/fans a reasonable chance to go to away games, decent tv exposure, a quality product imo, decent scheduling ties to Big 10 schools. The scheduling of Big 10 teams could really increase now they're no longer going to play FCS schools. We already have ties to PSU, Rutgers and Maryland.

[MplsBison]

I'm fine with the American 12 as long as UConn and Cincy stay. However, without them there's little to no benefit of being in that conference. I'd much rather an all sports membership in the MAC. Logistically it makes sense and I like being associated with quality academic schools like Miami(OH), Ohio and Buffalo. Generally speaking, Temple fits the MAC profile a lot more than we do the American 12 without UConn and Cincy.

I really liked the MAC for football. It allowed our alums/fans a reasonable chance to go to away games, decent tv exposure, a quality program imo, decent scheduling ties to Big 10 schools. The scheduling of Big 10 teams could really increase now they're no longer going to play FCS schools. We already have ties to PSU, Rutgers and Maryland.

Sounds right to me.

I like the MAC a lot too. I'd love for NDSU, SDSU and Northern Iowa to go after full-membership in the west division with Northern Illinois.


If UConn, Cincy and Temple leave the America 12, it really is nothing more than CUSA II.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To me, it sure looks like the Big Priest is doing its best to roll out a red carpet for UConn and Cincy to join up (and maybe Temple and UMass as well). All four teams are hemorrhaging money in FBS football and have no shot at the plus-one playoff. Temple, UConn and Cincy are seeing their TV money literally halve, and UMass never had any money from FBS football, have officially found it a tough road so far, and don't have their own stadium. Neither does Temple.

I don't know what UConn and Cincy will do but I honestly don't see Big Least as an option. Their athletic departments will be wrecked. I'm now starting to wonder very seriously, though, about Temple and UMass. I could see a scenario where they're 11 and 12 in the Big Priest and they drop their football dreams. No stadiums.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

To me, it sure looks like the Big Priest is doing its best to roll out a red carpet for UConn and Cincy to join up (and maybe Temple and UMass as well). All four teams are hemorrhaging money in FBS football and have no shot at the plus-one playoff. Temple, UConn and Cincy are seeing their TV money literally halve, and UMass never had any money from FBS football, have officially found it a tough road so far, and don't have their own stadium. Neither does Temple.

I don't know what UConn and Cincy will do but I honestly don't see Big Least as an option. Their athletic departments will be wrecked. I'm now starting to wonder very seriously, though, about Temple and UMass. I could see a scenario where they're 11 and 12 in the Big Priest and they drop their football dreams. No stadiums.

To 85% of the country Temple is a private, religious school so it might work lol.

Temple football was literally saved in 2005 by a couple of votes. Our old doofus, not just when it came to sports, president wanted the program gone. Thankfully Ann Weaver Hart came in right around that time, a Princeton grad mind you, and re-committed to the program. She has recently moved on and I have no idea what our new presidents view is of athletics.

[WH49er]

Sounds right to me.

I like the MAC a lot too. I'd love for NDSU, SDSU and Northern Iowa to go after full-membership in the west division with Northern Illinois.


If UConn, Cincy and Temple leave the America 12, it really is nothing more than CUSA II.


Yep, Navy would probably leave and they would probably backfill with USM, Marshall, ODU and Charlotte. I really wish all the chips would fall so we could go ahead and some stability.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Found this...

3. The continued additions of schools not close to Temple is only increasing a strain on Olympic Sports budgets.
This will result in teams being eliminated or scholarships cut. They do not know what will happen here yet, but they
know cuts will be coming. Because of the lowered revenue from the TV package and the increased expenses,
Temple will most likely limit support of Big East expansion to northeastern teams going forward.
5. If football does not become profitable and if being in the Old Big East results in too much of a loss, Temple will
consider removing our Olympic Sports from the old Big East. If the situation becomes bad enough, the football
attendance contracts strongly, and no other option is viable to make the athletic program more profitable, the board
will not hesitate to renew discussion to cut the football team as we discussed in the early 2000s.
6. Temple Admin is deeply hurt by many of our former Big East members. We were kicked out, spent a great deal of
money to reinvent the football team, and as we were added back to the Big East to help them with scheduling
issues and paid higher exit rates to leave quickly, we were suddenly abandoned by the schools we wanted to
eagerly join and who lobbied us to rejoin the Big East.
The main impression I walked away with is that if Temple is left out of conference realignment then it may no longer
make sense for us to play football unless a true northeastern league appears.

[DFW HOYA]

The problem with this scenario is, without football, Temple is running out of choices.

America 12? MAC? Not if Temple doesn't have football.

Big East? Villanova won't open that door again.

Atlantic 10? It's about to become MAAC Lite.

CAA? See Atlantic 10, minus two or three at-large bids.

At this point, Temple needs to stay the course on I-A football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I'm not worried about Villanova anymore. They don't have the power they thought they did. Temple has far more pull thanks to the city and state.

I think the school gives Rhule three years to see what he can do. There's no doubt that our time at the Linc may be running out.

[DFW HOYA]

I think the school gives Rhule three years to see what he can do. There's no doubt that our time at the Linc may be running out.

Well, the lease is running out (2019?) but it's not like Villanova is moving to take it over, either.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well, the lease is running out (2019?) but it's not like Villanova is moving to take it over, either.

The lease ends 12/31/17. It was signed for 15 seasons starting in 2003.

[MplsBison]

The problem with this scenario is, without football, Temple is running out of choices.

America 12? MAC? Not if Temple doesn't have football.

Big East? Villanova won't open that door again.

Atlantic 10? It's about to become MAAC Lite.

CAA? See Atlantic 10, minus two or three at-large bids.

At this point, Temple needs to stay the course on I-A football.

Temple won't get into the Big East, agreed.

Assuming Cincy, UConn or both leave, I don't think America 12 bball is all that great. Basically Memphis is the main team, maybe Houston can resurrect the good ole days?

A10 would be where it's at for Temple. They rejoin their old friends Duquesne, George Washington, UMass, St. Bonnie, Rhode Island, St. Joe's, Fordham, LaSalle and Richmond.

Pretty good bball right there and with Dayton and St Louis leaving for the Big East, the geography tightens up nicely.


Throw in VCU and Geo Mason from the CAA - and the A10 is clearly the best situation for Temple without football. Gives the A10 twelve members as well (again, assuming StL and Dayton are off to the Big East).

[HailSzczur]

I'm not worried about Villanova anymore. They don't have the power they thought they did. Temple has far more pull thanks to the city and state.

I think the school gives Rhule three years to see what he can do. There's no doubt that our time at the Linc may be running out.

I hate Temple, but with the right package of teams I'd take them to the New Big East. And by the right package I mean if they and UConn dumped their football teams in the MAC and joined us. Temple on it's own I don't think so though.

The way I see it Temple Football is what's keeping it out out of the Big East. It's way too much of a liability to take on a football school, given the mess football has gotten us into in the past

[MplsBison]

I hate Temple, but with the right package of teams I'd take them to the New Big East. And by the right package I mean if they and UConn dumped their football teams in the MAC and joined us. Temple on it's own I don't think so though.

The way I see it Temple Football is what's keeping it out out of the Big East. It's way too much of a liability to take on a football school, given the mess football has gotten us into in the past

Wouldn't you rather have LaSalle??? Still in the tourny! ;)

[HailSzczur]

Wouldn't you rather have LaSalle??? Still in the tourny! ;)

I would take LaSalle over St Joes (PA) thats for sure.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I would have no problem with Temple hoops being in a slightly watered down A10. Temple is bit of a niche school when it comes to sports. The schools that draw well are those who our students and alumni identify with.

For Football it's Penn St, Pitt, Rutgers, Buffalo, Maryland, Syracuse, Villanova, Delaware, WVU, Cincy

Hoops- Big 5 teams, Georgetown, Duke, Maryland, Umass, Xavier, VCU and obviously the other blue bloods.

[MplsBison]

Not really huge news, but ECU will be in the America 12 for all sports: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9103973/east-carolina-pirates-join-new-league-all-sports

That gives the conference 10 all sports members for 2013-14 with Rutgers and Louisville still in, then replaced by Tulane and ECU for 2014-15.


Link also says Tulsa is a done deal. I assume for all sports with Navy still being football only. Though I wonder what are the chances for two possibilities:

A) Navy leaves the Patriot and joins A12 as all sports?
B) Tulsa just receives a football-only invitation to the A12? And if so, where do their other sports land? Southland? MVC?

[WH49er]

Not really huge news, but ECU will be in the America 12 for all sports: http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9103973/east-carolina-pirates-join-new-league-all-sports

That gives the conference 10 all sports members for 2013-14 with Rutgers and Louisville still in, then replaced by Tulane and ECU for 2014-15.



Got to believe this makes it even worse for UConn and Cincy. Rather than playing Syracuse, Pitt, Georgetown, Villanova, etc. for Big East titles, they will battling it out with the likes of ECU, Tulane, SMU, Navy.

Cincy and UConn should be sending some high class hookers out rather than Christmas card.

[MplsBison]

Are you talking about football or bball? Not sure for Cincy, but UConn I would think is more worried about bball conference games than football conference games. Crappy deal for both programs. You know they're both hedging all bets on an ACC invite.

That said, like I was asking - any chance Navy leaves the Patriot to join A12 in all sports (matching Tulsa)?

[DFW HOYA]

That said, like I was asking - any chance Navy leaves the Patriot to join A12 in all sports (matching Tulsa)?

None. It does the USNA no good, and outside of football its competitive level is far below that of most other I-A institutions, and for good reasons, too.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

None. It does the USNA no good, and outside of football its competitive level is far below that of most other I-A institutions, and for good reasons, too.

I agree. It seems a matter a time that they will back out. Their membership, like Boise's and San Diego State's, was based on the fact that the old Big East remain relevant in the big bowl scene. But the latest revenue sharing agreement relegates them to the MAC/Sun Belt/C-USA group of conferences. As independents, they have the exact same access to bowls as the America 12, and I'd additionally argue that they have more access to the playoffs there than they would as members of America 12.

[MplsBison]

I agree. It seems a matter a time that they will back out. Their membership, like Boise's and San Diego State's, was based on the fact that the old Big East remain relevant in the big bowl scene. But the latest revenue sharing agreement relegates them to the MAC/Sun Belt/C-USA group of conferences. As independents, they have the exact same access to bowls as the America 12, and I'd additionally argue that they have more access to the playoffs there than they would as members of America 12.

You'll have to prove that.

Please show me where it says independents who are ranked higher than the highest ranked group of five champions will supersede them for automatic access to the new BCS bowls?

Haven't read such a thing anywhere.

That means if BYU, Army or Navy are ranked higher than say Northern Illinois (which is ranked higher than MWC, CUSA, SB and A12 champions) - they're left out of the big money bowl games.


I think the BCS has made it clear to the indy's: get in a conference or get left out of the cash system!

(obviously that does not count Navy's special circumstance of getting into a few bowls because they're Navy...I don't see why such an agreement would change if they are members of the A12)

[MplsBison]

None. It does the USNA no good, and outside of football its competitive level is far below that of most other I-A institutions, and for good reasons, too.

Well, in theory you could argue that playing programs like UConn and Memphis might help them recruit better or learn from those programs to become competitive with them. And also could argue that A12 will be a multi-bid league rather than Patriot being a permanent one-bid.

[GannonFan]

Well, in theory you could argue that playing programs like UConn and Memphis might help them recruit better or learn from those programs to become competitive with them. And also could argue that A12 will be a multi-bid league rather than Patriot being a permanent one-bid.

Have you ever seen Navy play a sport outside of football or lacrosse? Theory is all fine and well on message boards, but there's zero interest from Navy to become a big time player in college sports across a wide range of sports. Their mission is to create quality naval and marine officers, not to recruit big time college athletes. Even in football Navy has only recently been successful because of 1)real good coaching, 2) a niche offensive scheme that isn't widely seen today and 3) an often favorable schedule that doesn't aim too high. For most sports, Navy is right at home in the Patriot League - it's great from a transportation standpoint (relatively small geographic area) and the competition is not overwhelming.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Have you ever seen Navy play a sport outside of football or lacrosse? Theory is all fine and well on message boards, but there's zero interest from Navy to become a big time player in college sports across a wide range of sports. Their mission is to create quality naval and marine officers, not to recruit big time college athletes. Even in football Navy has only recently been successful because of 1)real good coaching, 2) a niche offensive scheme that isn't widely seen today and 3) an often favorable schedule that doesn't aim too high. For most sports, Navy is right at home in the Patriot League - it's great from a transportation standpoint (relatively small geographic area) and the competition is not overwhelming.

+1. I'd add to this that the unique nature of the service academies' use of football to recruit future officers outside the Northeast means it makes perfect sense for them to play USC, Notre Dame, and, say, North Carolina instead of Furman, Sam Houston State and, say, Montana in FCS. Football isn't about dollars and cents to them; it's about military recruitment, and games against USC and San Diego State (which are not far from naval bases, incidentally) are the right thing for them to do.

In hoops, playing an OOC schedule with trips to San Diego or Texas are thoroughly possible yet to still have hoops in the Patriot League, so it makes sense for them. In a great year they win the autobid and make the tournament like everyone else. The Army/Navy Patriot League arrangement is a match made in heaven.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Got to believe this makes it even worse for UConn and Cincy. Rather than playing Syracuse, Pitt, Georgetown, Villanova, etc. for Big East titles, they will battling it out with the likes of ECU, Tulane, SMU, Navy.

Cincy and UConn should be sending some high class hookers out rather than Christmas card.

Temple, UConn, Cincy and Memphis make for an an excellent core group of basketball schools. However, football wise, it's very blah.

[ccd494]

I think the BCS has made it clear to the indy's: get in a conference or get left out of the cash system!

Except Navy couldn't give two poops about how much money it makes or loses on football. It's a line item in a trillion dollar budget. If Navy got a Rose Bowl payout, it wouldn't matter one iota to what Navy does.

[MplsBison]

Except Navy couldn't give two poops about how much money it makes or loses on football. It's a line item in a trillion dollar budget. If Navy got a Rose Bowl payout, it wouldn't matter one iota to what Navy does.

Right. The Naval Academy football team is a direct line item in the Pentagon budget. There is no emoticon for how hard I'm rolling my eyes right now.


Your point is taken, but you didn't have to be so absurd. Perhaps Army and Navy are the ultimate cases of not giving a crap about BCS system payouts. Fine. Don't forget there's also the prestige of being in those bigger bowl games and the advertising that would go with them.

Navy can legitimately win the A12 and possibly be the highest rated conf champion from those five conferences, thus guaranteeing them a spot in one of the five big bowls.

If they're an independent, even if they have an amazing season - they might get left out. All I'm saying.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right. The Naval Academy football team is a direct line item in the Pentagon budget. There is no emoticon for how hard I'm rolling my eyes right now.


Your point is taken, but you didn't have to be so absurd. Perhaps Army and Navy are the ultimate cases of not giving a crap about BCS system payouts. Fine. Don't forget there's also the prestige of being in those bigger bowl games and the advertising that would go with them.

Navy can legitimately win the A12 and possibly be the highest rated conf champion from those five conferences, thus guaranteeing them a spot in one of the five big bowls.

If they're an independent, even if they have an amazing season - they might get left out. All I'm saying.

Name one time where an amazing Army or Navy season has resulted in them being left out of a big bowl.

[Babar]

Your point is taken, but you didn't have to be so absurd. Perhaps Army and Navy are the ultimate cases of not giving a crap about BCS system payouts. Fine. Don't forget there's also the prestige of being in those bigger bowl games and the advertising that would go with them.

Navy can legitimately win the A12 and possibly be the highest rated conf champion from those five conferences, thus guaranteeing them a spot in one of the five big bowls.

If they're an independent, even if they have an amazing season - they might get left out. All I'm saying.

The military academies will never go without a good bowl berth when they have strong teams. They have more and more broadly distributed good will than any teams in the country. You can count on one hand the number of teams that would get an at-large invite over a 10 or 11 win academy team.

Edit: and I realize you're talking about the very top bowls, and yes, the academies could conceivably be excluded there. But the consolation prize will be the best of what's left. They'll never be the 8 win team that nobody wants.

[MplsBison]

The military academies will never go without a good bowl berth when they have strong teams. They have more and more broadly distributed good will than any teams in the country. You can count on one hand the number of teams that would get an at-large invite over a 10 or 11 win academy team.

I'm telling you now - 11 win Navy independent doesn't get the big five bowl invitation. That spot goes to the highest ranked group of five conference champion, per the agreement.

Prove me wrong.


Just think about it for a second - what I'm saying has to be true. Why else would Navy be joining essentially Conference USA in football? They could've done that at any time in the last whatever years.

[MplsBison]

Name one time where an amazing Army or Navy season has resulted in them being left out of a big bowl.

Name one time Navy or Army have gone to a BCS bowl.

[Babar]

I'm telling you now - 11 win Navy independent doesn't get the big five bowl invitation. That spot goes to the highest ranked group of five conference champion, per the agreement.

Prove me wrong.


Just think about it for a second - what I'm saying has to be true. Why else would Navy be joining essentially Conference USA in football? They could've done that at any time in the last whatever years.

No, I think you're kind of right. Conference membership gives them a tiny chance at a top 5 bowl (they're not still called BCS, are they?) they wouldn't otherwise have. But it's not nearly the deal they had with te old Bug East in the old system, where they could conceivably back into a BCS bowl the way an 8-4 UConn did.

The chance of Navy being the best team in the bottom five conferences is very small, and the difference in value to Navy between a BCS berth and a regular bowl berth, multiplied by the odds of getting there, is not worth the certain and yearly costs of being in the new Big East versus being an independent.

[MplsBison]

No, I think you're kind of right. Conference membership gives them a tiny chance at a top 5 bowl (they're not still called BCS, are they?) they wouldn't otherwise have. But it's not nearly the deal they had with te old Bug East in the old system, where they could conceivably back into a BCS bowl the way an 8-4 UConn did.

The chance of Navy being the best team in the bottom five conferences is very small, and the difference in value to Navy between a BCS berth and a regular bowl berth, multiplied by the odds of getting there, is not worth the certain and yearly costs of being in the new Big East versus being an independent.

Agree with everything you said except the costs. Why is it more expensive for Navy football to be a member of A12 vs. independent? And assume that Navy will keep only its own TV deal and get none of whatever money comes to the A12 from ESPN.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, I think you're kind of right. Conference membership gives them a tiny chance at a top 5 bowl (they're not still called BCS, are they?) they wouldn't otherwise have. But it's not nearly the deal they had with te old Bug East in the old system, where they could conceivably back into a BCS bowl the way an 8-4 UConn did.

The chance of Navy being the best team in the bottom five conferences is very small, and the difference in value to Navy between a BCS berth and a regular bowl berth, multiplied by the odds of getting there, is not worth the certain and yearly costs of being in the new Big East versus being an independent.

With the plus-one playoff and five conference champions angling for a crystal ball shot, how is winning C-USA or America 12 better than an indy schedule with Air Force, Notre Dame, USC or teams like that? It's the same remote shot, and membership with conference games against UConn or Tulane aren't going to make the difference between playoffs and big bowls.

Any bowl would kill to get a service academy in there. Built-in fans are present across the country in terms of serving and supporting military. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Navy fans in San Diego than San Diego State fans.

[Babar]

With the plus-one playoff and five conference champions angling for a crystal ball shot, how is winning C-USA or America 12 better than an indy schedule with Air Force, Notre Dame, USC or teams like that? It's the same remote shot, and membership with conference games against UConn or Tulane aren't going to make the difference between playoffs and big bowls.

Any bowl would kill to get a service academy in there. Built-in fans are present across the country in terms of serving and supporting military. I wouldn't be surprised if there are more Navy fans in San Diego than San Diego State fans.

Well, the bowls have contracts. They actually can't all ditch their conferences to pick Navy. Some can, some of the time.

Mplsbison is right that there's an autobid for the best of the bottom five conference. Are the indies included in that bottom pool? I don't know.

I agree that the a academies will always have solid bowls available, if they do well. Solid doesn't mean Rose Bowl, but that's okay.

[MplsBison]

And they might be ok with that, as well. Which is fine with me.

The pointed question that I've tried to ask and LFN purposefully ignores either because he knows he has no answer or he doesn't know and doesn't want to research: were independents included in the "group of five get one slot in the big five bowls" deal?

I don't think anyone has ever said and I don't think anyone can find anything to the contrary, but I'd be pleasantly surprised to find out otherwise. My gut: they're excluded.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/20954200/bcs-presidents-approve-access-for-non-bcs-schools-in-playoff


Beginning after the 2014 season, six playoff bowls will take turns rotate through an annual two-game (four-team) semifinal. The top four teams as selected by a human committee will play for the national championship. Preference will be given to conference champions selected by a human committee. The other four bowls in any given year will be home to eight other teams based on a top-12 ranking by that committee.

The championship game will be bid separately.

The champions of the Big Ten, ACC, Big 12, Pac-12 and SEC are guaranteed spots each year in the six-bowl rotation. Notre Dame is guaranteed a spot in the Orange Bowl opposite the ACC champion if it is ranked higher than a non-champion from the SEC and Big Ten.

Those top five conferences have contracted for spots in the bowls that they essentially own (Rose Bowl, Sugar Bowl and Orange Bowl). The other three host bowls (six spots) will be open to other teams from those top five conferences, independents and the Group of Five champion. Phoenix (Fiesta), Atlanta, Dallas and Orlando have been mentioned as favorites for host bowls.

So again - what's the incentive? Things like the "Military Bowl", Poinsettia (San Diego), Texas, and Hawai'i bowl will always want Army or Navy (and, for that matter, Air Force) over any America 12 team as long as a service academy is eligible. Top independents will be in the mix over the "group of five" schools for the playoff, and if they're under serious consideration they're likely to have have won the CoC triphy and also have big wins over a school like Notre Dame, Michigan or USC if they're in the mix anyway - much better than running the table over the likes of Memphis, Tulane and App State.

[Babar]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/20954200/bcs-presidents-approve-access-for-non-bcs-schools-in-playoff



So again - what's the incentive? Things like the "Military Bowl", Poinsettia (San Diego), Texas, and Hawai'i bowl will always want Army or Navy (and, for that matter, Air Force) over any America 12 team as long as a service academy is eligible. Top independents will be in the mix over the "group of five" schools for the playoff, and if they're under serious consideration they're likely to have have won the CoC triphy and also have big wins over a school like Notre Dame, Michigan or USC if they're in the mix anyway - much better than running the table over the likes of Memphis, Tulane and App State.

I agree.

[MplsBison]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/dennis-dodd/20954200/bcs-presidents-approve-access-for-non-bcs-schools-in-playoff



So again - what's the incentive? Things like the "Military Bowl", Poinsettia (San Diego), Texas, and Hawai'i bowl will always want Army or Navy (and, for that matter, Air Force) over any America 12 team as long as a service academy is eligible. Top independents will be in the mix over the "group of five" schools for the playoff, and if they're under serious consideration they're likely to have have won the CoC triphy and also have big wins over a school like Notre Dame, Michigan or USC if they're in the mix anyway - much better than running the table over the likes of Memphis, Tulane and App State.

Your link confirms what I thought. Only the top ranked group of five champion has a guaranteed spot in the big five bowls. Can't and won't be displaced by any independent, no matter how good it is.

Of course, those spots are "open" to very compelling independents in the same way that they're also open to a very compelling 2nd highest rated group of five conference champion that didn't get the guaranteed spot would be.

[Go...gate]

Name one time Navy or Army have gone to a BCS bowl.

Navy played in the 1955 Sugar Bowl, 1961 Orange Bowl and 1964 Cotton Bowl.

Army had a no-bowl policy until Jim Young came in as coach in 1983. Many Army teams turned bowl invitations when there were only the major bowls.

[Go...gate]

Navy and Army (much more than Air Force) also "travel well". They put fannies in the seats anywhere, and that is cash in the pocket of bowl administrators.

[MplsBison]

I give you: the American Athletic Conference.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/ncaaf/2013/04/03/former-big-east-to-take-american-athletic-conference-in-football/2051105/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Athletic_Conference


For 2013-14, map looks like this.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b1/Renamed_Big_East_Conference_Member_Locations.png/350px-Renamed_Big_East_Conference_Member_Locations.png


As we all know, Rutgers and Louisville are out in 2014-15 to be replaced by Tulsa, Tulane and ECU in all sports.

[Laker]

American Athletic Conference. At least they didn't use a number. AAC and ACC could get confusing though.

[hebmskebm]

If the ACC bid is not forthcoming for Uconn, do you think they would push for another northeast school to make the travel in the AAC a little more managable? Could Umass be an option?

[MplsBison]

If they could get Delaware and UMass to join with Navy as football only - then you might have something?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

American Athletic Conference. At least they didn't use a number. AAC and ACC could get confusing though.

AAC. Almost the ACC. Too easy.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If the ACC bid is not forthcoming for Uconn, do you think they would push for another northeast school to make the travel in the AAC a little more managable? Could Umass be an option?

I think the AAC needs to go after UMass, BC and Buffalo. BC might be a bit of a reach but if the price is right maybe they seriously consider it. Buffalo is a good academic school with a hoops program filled with potential.

AAC North
Temple
UConn
Cincinnati
UMass
Buffalo
Boston College
Navy*

AAC South
USF
UCF
ECU
SMU
Memphis
Houston
Tulane
Tulsa

That would be a very solid conference.

[DFW HOYA]

BC might be a bit of a reach but if the price is right maybe they seriously consider it.

The price is not right.

AAC schools will make $1.8 million per year with its new watered down ESPN contract, down from $3.5 million under the old contract. ACC schools make between $15-17 million per year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The price is not right.

AAC schools will make $1.8 million per year with its new watered down ESPN contract, down from $3.5 million under the old contract. ACC schools make between $15-17 million per year.

That contract and figure are based on unknowns. Increased attendance, more engaged alumni/local media could result in other means of revenue. You add in solid bowl tie-ins, hoops tourney at TD Garden and whatever else and I think there's a chance.

[MplsBison]

I would say there's zero chance BC will leave $15 million/year, auto bid opportunity to big five bowls, football conf games against Syracuse, Pitt and Notre Dame every X years and all three of those every year in bball.

Here's the ACC map, just strike out Maryland in your mind:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a2/Atlantic_Coast_Conference_Map_2013.png/300px-Atlantic_Coast_Conference_Map_2013.png


Why in the world West Virginia would not be in that conference....funny ole' world. Maybe when Virginia and Georgia Tech leave for the Big Ten?

Then you pair Louisville-ND, Clemson-VT, WV-Pitt and Syracuse-BC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why in the world West Virginia would not be in that conference....

Money. Not fans, not college athletics, not athletes, not purity of competition. Money. $$$. Big XII $$$ > ACC $$$.

[DFW HOYA]

SEC $$$ > ACC $$$.

The SEC had no intention of adding WVU and told them so.

[nwFL Griz]

Money. Not fans, not college athletics, not athletes, not purity of competition. Money. $$$. Big XII $$$ > ACC $$$.

The ACC also told WVU they had no intention of adding them. The Big XII was an option that came out of nowhere for WVU.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Right. WVU was never getting in either the ACC or SEC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right. WVU was never getting in either the ACC or SEC.

I don't think W Va is regretting not getting into the ACC at this point.

[nwFL Griz]

I don't think W Va is regretting not getting into the ACC at this point.

Really? Why? Because of a few more dollars? I would think having a more regional conference with some true natural rivals would balance the difference in revenue.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I don't think W Va is regretting not getting into the ACC at this point.

Well, it's hard to regret something you didn't control...


And I am fairly sure that WVU, if it had the chance to switch from the Big XII today to the ACC, would do so.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Really? Why? Because of a few more dollars? I would think having a more regional conference with some true natural rivals would balance the difference in revenue.

Winning the Big XII will get W Va into the plus-one playoff. Winning the ACC will be a long "wait-and-see" game. IMO, the Big XII has a much sweeter deal than the ACC in terms of football.

[DFW HOYA]

West Virginia's future risk is that being faced by Boston College--as the conference grows, it will increasingly be relegated to the second tier. WVU could easily become another Iowa State in a conference with heavyweights like Texas and Oklahoma.

[Sandlapper Spike]

An Iowa State with mammoth travel expenses and no natural rivalries at all.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

An Iowa State with mammoth travel expenses and no natural rivalries at all.

On this I totally agree. West Viriginia, like Rutgers and Maryland, and, and, and, chased the $$$. It is all going to depend on the $$$. Fans are the huge losers in all of this, who now have to fork over $$$ for flights to see league games.

However, if it is all about $$$, and playoff access that leads to $$$, though, West Virginia is "better off" in that the Big XII has more access and more $$$. But that $$$ doesn't help the fans much. Nor the athletes. Nor the community.

[nwFL Griz]

Winning the Big XII will get W Va into the plus-one playoff. Winning the ACC will be a long "wait-and-see" game. IMO, the Big XII has a much sweeter deal than the ACC in terms of football.

This opinion is based on what? There is nothing in the details of the playoff that ensure the winner of the B12 is automatically in and the ACC winner is not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This opinion is based on what? There is nothing in the details of the playoff that ensure the winner of the B12 is automatically in and the ACC winner is not.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings/_/week/15

AP Top 25 Rankings before Bowls

7 Kansas State 11-1 1129
12 Oklahoma 10-2 851

13 Florida State 11-2 789
14 Clemson 10-2 691

From this season's AP Top 25, it's clear who's who in the pecking order. Remove Notre Dame from the equation and you have a plus-one playoff of Alabama, Florida, Oregon, Kansas State.

[nwFL Griz]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings/_/week/15

AP Top 25 Rankings before Bowls

7 Kansas State 11-1 1129
12 Oklahoma 10-2 851

13 Florida State 11-2 789
14 Clemson 10-2 691

From this season's AP Top 25, it's clear who's who in the pecking order. Remove Notre Dame from the equation and you have a plus-one playoff of Alabama, Florida, Oregon, Kansas State.

For this year, true. However, you are making a blanket statement that is not based on anything that is written down.

If there is a year in which the top ACC team has 1 or 0 losses, they would not be excluded, unless there is a derth of undefeated teams.

[GannonFan]

http://espn.go.com/college-football/rankings/_/week/15

AP Top 25 Rankings before Bowls

7 Kansas State 11-1 1129
12 Oklahoma 10-2 851

13 Florida State 11-2 789
14 Clemson 10-2 691

From this season's AP Top 25, it's clear who's who in the pecking order. Remove Notre Dame from the equation and you have a plus-one playoff of Alabama, Florida, Oregon, Kansas State.

Agree with the other poster, you're making an extrapolation here that the data doesn't support. KState only had the one loss, and Oklahoma's only losses were to KState and Notre Dame (two teams ranked ahead of them). That played much more into the rankings than which conference the teams came from. Florida State and Clemson each had two losses, and losses to teams that were behind them in the rankings (NC State for FSU and South Carolina for Clemson). If you reverse the scenario and have a one loss Florida St and a two loss Clemson with Oklahoma's losses, the rankings would be reversed, again, regardless of the conference affiliation.

[MplsBison]

For this year, true. However, you are making a blanket statement that is not based on anything that is written down.

If there is a year in which the top ACC team has 1 or 0 losses, they would not be excluded, unless there is a derth of undefeated teams.

Trying to paint the ACC as a half step below the other four is something of a hobby for northeasterners who hate the conference with boiling blood, for destroying the Big East.

I pay no attention to such nonsense, myself. The ACC is every bit on an equal, level footing with at least the Big XII. And both of those are reasonably close enough to the Big Ten and SEC. (the PAC I just put off in it's own world, on the other side of the Rockies).

[MplsBison]

Agree with the other poster, you're making an extrapolation here that the data doesn't support. KState only had the one loss, and Oklahoma's only losses were to KState and Notre Dame (two teams ranked ahead of them). That played much more into the rankings than which conference the teams came from. Florida State and Clemson each had two losses, and losses to teams that were behind them in the rankings (NC State for FSU and South Carolina for Clemson). If you reverse the scenario and have a one loss Florida St and a two loss Clemson with Oklahoma's losses, the rankings would be reversed, again, regardless of the conference affiliation.

Great points, great post.

[MplsBison]

Well, it's hard to regret something you didn't control...


And I am fairly sure that WVU, if it had the chance to switch from the Big XII today to the ACC, would do so.

Absolutely. If nothing else, league games with VT and Pittsburgh would be worth it.


It was about TV contracts, at least as far as why W Virginia didn't get into the ACC or SEC. Didn't bring enough TV sets to move the needle in negotiations.

On the other hand, the Big XII is all in a line in the great plains and all of a sudden here comes W Virginia out east. This is seen as "market diversification" for that league and therefore is a good thing.


Here's what I don't get though: isn't ESPN the arbiter for both leagues??? This is my point: why are they treating the Big XII and the ACC like they're completely isolated from each other, on different continents?? Why wouldn't you just offer some amount of money to both leagues from a single pot? Whoever has the most compelling games is who gets on TV and who therefore gets the money. If the ACC is having the better year, they get more TV games and more money. If the Big XII is, then they do.

That completely eliminates the idea that market diversification adds value. That only works if you treat each conference as an independent, isolated case (like the PAC).

You say the central and eastern time zones is the single market. Not the cities that compromise the conference schools.

[DFW HOYA]

Fox is allied with the Big 12, ESPN for the ACC.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I would say there's zero chance BC will leave $15 million/year, auto bid opportunity to big five bowls, football conf games against Syracuse, Pitt and Notre Dame every X years and all three of those every year in bball.

Here's the ACC map, just strike out Maryland in your mind:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a2/Atlantic_Coast_Conference_Map_2013.png/300px-Atlantic_Coast_Conference_Map_2013.png


Why in the world West Virginia would not be in that conference....funny ole' world. Maybe when Virginia and Georgia Tech leave for the Big Ten?

Then you pair Louisville-ND, Clemson-VT, WV-Pitt and Syracuse-BC.

The addition of Syracuse will really help BC.

I think ODU is the next best candidate for the AAC. ODU is in a great location, traditionally have solid men's/women's bball teams and they fit in the geographic footprint. Academics could use some improvement though...

[Go Green]

I think ODU is the next best candidate for the AAC. ODU is in a great location, traditionally have solid men's/women's bball teams and they fit in the geographic foot print. Academics could use some improvement though...

They just hired American's Jeff Jones. We will see if he can take them to new heights.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agree with the other poster, you're making an extrapolation here that the data doesn't support. KState only had the one loss, and Oklahoma's only losses were to KState and Notre Dame (two teams ranked ahead of them). That played much more into the rankings than which conference the teams came from. Florida State and Clemson each had two losses, and losses to teams that were behind them in the rankings (NC State for FSU and South Carolina for Clemson). If you reverse the scenario and have a one loss Florida St and a two loss Clemson with Oklahoma's losses, the rankings would be reversed, again, regardless of the conference affiliation.

Or we could look at Sagarin:

1 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 81.75 81.57 ( 1) 14 81.64 ( 1)
2 BIG 12 (A) = 79.99 79.38 ( 2) 10 79.54 ( 2)
3 PAC-12 (A) = 76.15 75.58 ( 3) 12 75.85 ( 3)
4 BIG TEN (A) = 75.87 75.05 ( 4) 12 75.24 ( 4)
5 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 72.83 72.73 ( 5) 4 72.82 ( 5)
6 BIG EAST (A) = 72.16 71.87 ( 7) 8 71.91 ( 6)
7 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 71.64 71.92 ( 6) 12 71.80 ( 7)

Ouch. Below the AAC. Good luck being the ACC rep trying to convince that Clemson's loss to North Carolina that nobody saw on ESPN is a "better loss" than, say, Kansas State's loss to Texas that was prime-time on FOX.

[MplsBison]

Fox is allied with the Big 12, ESPN for the ACC.

I would be surprised if 1st tier rights for Big XII aren't with ESPN. 2nd tier games I know are on Fox Sports regional networks.

[MplsBison]

Or we could look at Sagarin:

1 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 81.75 81.57 ( 1) 14 81.64 ( 1)
2 BIG 12 (A) = 79.99 79.38 ( 2) 10 79.54 ( 2)
3 PAC-12 (A) = 76.15 75.58 ( 3) 12 75.85 ( 3)
4 BIG TEN (A) = 75.87 75.05 ( 4) 12 75.24 ( 4)
5 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 72.83 72.73 ( 5) 4 72.82 ( 5)
6 BIG EAST (A) = 72.16 71.87 ( 7) 8 71.91 ( 6)
7 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 71.64 71.92 ( 6) 12 71.80 ( 7)

Ouch. Below the AAC. Good luck being the ACC rep trying to convince that Clemson's loss to North Carolina that nobody saw on ESPN is a "better loss" than, say, Kansas State's loss to Texas that was prime-time on FOX.

Cool ratings system!

...that won't be used by the selection committee.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Cool ratings system!

...that won't be used by the selection committee.

How do you know?

[GannonFan]

Or we could look at Sagarin:

1 SOUTHEASTERN (A) = 81.75 81.57 ( 1) 14 81.64 ( 1)
2 BIG 12 (A) = 79.99 79.38 ( 2) 10 79.54 ( 2)
3 PAC-12 (A) = 76.15 75.58 ( 3) 12 75.85 ( 3)
4 BIG TEN (A) = 75.87 75.05 ( 4) 12 75.24 ( 4)
5 I-A INDEPENDENTS (A) = 72.83 72.73 ( 5) 4 72.82 ( 5)
6 BIG EAST (A) = 72.16 71.87 ( 7) 8 71.91 ( 6)
7 ATLANTIC COAST (A) = 71.64 71.92 ( 6) 12 71.80 ( 7)

Ouch. Below the AAC. Good luck being the ACC rep trying to convince that Clemson's loss to North Carolina that nobody saw on ESPN is a "better loss" than, say, Kansas State's loss to Texas that was prime-time on FOX.

KState actually lost to Baylor last year, not Texas. And you have to take into account when the losses happened - FSU lost to NC State in early October (if not September) and KSU almost went the whole season before losing to Baylor.

Regardless, though, you can't tell me that if the situation was revered, and FSU had the one loss and KSU had two losses, that KSU would be ranked ahead of FSU simply because of the conference they play in.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Regardless, though, you can't tell me that if the situation was revered, and FSU had the one loss and KSU had two losses, that KSU would be ranked ahead of FSU simply because of the conference they play in.

It will be down to "perceptions of schedule strength", and absolutely a 2-loss KSU team could very well be ahead of a one-loss FSU team.

The same way a 1-loss LSU team was thought to rank in front of every other conference champion a couple of years ago.

The same way a 13-1 Alabama team with a non-conference schedule of Michigan, Western Kentucky, Western Carolina and Florida Atlantic was adjudged to be one of the best teams in the nation last season.

[GannonFan]

It will be down to "perceptions of schedule strength", and absolutely a 2-loss KSU team could very well be ahead of a one-loss FSU team.

The same way a 1-loss LSU team was thought to rank in front of every other conference champion a couple of years ago.

The same way a 13-1 Alabama team with a non-conference schedule of Michigan, Western Kentucky, Western Carolina and Florida Atlantic was adjudged to be one of the best teams in the nation last season.

But not a 2 loss Alabama team. Again, you're drawing extrapolations that aren't supportable. Heck, you're even going to SEC examples to try to make your case. I agree that the SEC gets special consideration. But in your example of last year, if the records were exactly flipped (FSU would have one loss and KState would have two losses and FSU beating a Clemson team that only lost to FSU and Notre Dame) FSU would've been ranked highest of the whole grouping. In your example, the names of the teams and the conferences they came from didn't matter.

[MplsBison]

But not a 2 loss Alabama team. Again, you're drawing extrapolations that aren't supportable. Heck, you're even going to SEC examples to try to make your case. I agree that the SEC gets special consideration. But in your example of last year, if the records were exactly flipped (FSU would have one loss and KState would have two losses and FSU beating a Clemson team that only lost to FSU and Notre Dame) FSU would've been ranked highest of the whole grouping. In your example, the names of the teams and the conferences they came from didn't matter.

Don't waste your time. He'll say anything to dig at the ACC.

[walliver]

But not a 2 loss Alabama team. Again, you're drawing extrapolations that aren't supportable. Heck, you're even going to SEC examples to try to make your case. I agree that the SEC gets special consideration. But in your example of last year, if the records were exactly flipped (FSU would have one loss and KState would have two losses and FSU beating a Clemson team that only lost to FSU and Notre Dame) FSU would've been ranked highest of the whole grouping. In your example, the names of the teams and the conferences they came from didn't matter.

Actually, the Tiggers lost to South Carolina, not Notre Dame. But, I suspect the Chickens would have beaten Notre Dame.

[GannonFan]

Actually, the Tiggers lost to South Carolina, not Notre Dame. But, I suspect the Chickens would have beaten Notre Dame.

Gee, thanks Beavis. Read more of the thread, I was making the argument that if the two top teams in the Big 12 and the ACC had switched schedules and results then their positions in the polls would've been flipped as well, regardless of conference.

[MplsBison]

Gee, thanks Beavis. Read more of the thread, I was making the argument that if the two top teams in the Big 12 and the ACC had switched schedules and results then their positions in the polls would've been flipped as well, regardless of conference.

Which is so painfully obvious to anyone without an agenda.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Gee, thanks Beavis. Read more of the thread, I was making the argument that if the two top teams in the Big 12 and the ACC had switched schedules and results then their positions in the polls would've been flipped as well, regardless of conference.

Not necessarily since in-conference games vs. ACC foes vs. Big XII foes would be seen differently. Such is the nature of "schedule strength".

[MplsBison]

Not necessarily since in-conference games vs. ACC foes vs. Big XII foes would be seen differently. Such is the nature of "schedule strength".

Most people view ACC and Big XII as the same strength of conference schedule.