Big East Breakup FCS Ramifications

[MplsBison]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/1

SDSU and New Mexico are in the AP top 25 (as of Dec 31) with UNLV and Wyoming receiving votes.

I don't see a single Big West team from California receiving votes. Hawaii also didn't receive votes, but you can't include them in your argument anyway because it will cost SDSU just as much to fly out to the islands as it would to fly to any MWC team.


It's a sure thing.

[slostang]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/1

SDSU and New Mexico are in the AP top 25 (as of Dec 31) with UNLV and Wyoming receiving votes.

I don't see a single Big West team from California receiving votes. Hawaii also didn't receive votes, but you can't include them in your argument anyway because it will cost SDSU just as much to fly out to the islands as it would to fly to any MWC team.


It's a sure thing.
Likely, yes. Sure thing no. 11 (or any odd number) does not work well in basketball. As long as Hawaii is a football only member there is a real chance SDSU might come back to the MWC as a football only member (if they come back at all).

[ccd494]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/rankings/_/poll/1

SDSU and New Mexico are in the AP top 25 (as of Dec 31) with UNLV and Wyoming receiving votes.

I don't see a single Big West team from California receiving votes. Hawaii also didn't receive votes, but you can't include them in your argument anyway because it will cost SDSU just as much to fly out to the islands as it would to fly to any MWC team.


It's a sure thing.

Doesn't Hawai'i subsidize travel for opponents to some extent?

Not saying I disagree with you- I think SDSU ends up back in the MWC for all sports. I just don't think the costs of getting to Hawai'i will have anything to do with it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Next up on Big East Shuffle: UMass and... Tulsa? Rice? Southern Miss?

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/71927/3-point-shot-florida-without-erik-murphy


The remaining Big East athletic directors will meet in Dallas on Jan. 11 to discuss their latest moves, including the update on the television negotiations. Tulsa and UMass have been discussed as possible additions if the Big East decides to expand, according to multiple sources. Rice and Southern Miss were also tossed around. Meanwhile, the Mountain West expects to move on San Diego State by the end of this week, according to a league source. The MWC has to decide if it will go to 12 or 14. The MWC has interest in SMU and Houston, but SMU has let it be known to the MWC it has no interest as the Mustangs and Cougars are set to go to the Big East. UTEP desperately wants to be in the MWC, according to a source, and is on the MWC list. BYU is the first choice for the MWC but at this juncture the Cougars want to remain independent in football, WCC in other sports.

The Big East was almost contractually obligated to look at UMass in a football league that included UConn and Temple, but any of the four schools to be added are purely quantity not quality, in terms of athletic success or fan support.

Throwing this out there: could C-USA and the Big Continent (I can't call it the Big East anymore) come to some sort of deal to merge into divisions and maybe play a championship game?

[slostang]

Doesn't Hawai'i subsidize travel for opponents to some extent?

Not saying I disagree with you- I think SDSU ends up back in the MWC for all sports. I just don't think the costs of getting to Hawai'i will have anything to do with it.

Hawaii does subsidizes Big West schools for travel.

My point was that Hawii is now the only football member of the Mountain West. The MWC is trying to get to 12 or 14 football members. In that senario if they do not add one more football only member they will have an odd number of Olympic sport members (11 or 13) and that does not work for well in scheduling for sports like basketball.

[MplsBison]

Likely, yes. Sure thing no. 11 (or any odd number) does not work well in basketball. As long as Hawaii is a football only member there is a real chance SDSU might come back to the MWC as a football only member (if they come back at all).

Nope. It's a nice thought, especially for you Big West fans.

Simple fact that SDSU is a big time mid-major program dictates that they will not let their program languish down in the Big West when they have the open door to the MWC.


Maybe Hawaii will join all sports too. Gets you another 1.5mil! :D

[MplsBison]

Hawaii does subsidizes Big West schools for travel.

My point was that Hawii is now the only football member of the Mountain West. The MWC is trying to get to 12 or 14 football members. In that senario if they do not add one more football only member they will have an odd number of Olympic sport members (11 or 13) and that does not work for well in scheduling for sports like basketball.

It's not a wrong point to make.

It's just wrong to try applying it to such a strong bball program like SDSU. If we were talking about...maybe Fresno or something, then yes.

[slostang]

The difference between you and me Mpls is you talk in absolutes when you do not truely know.

[dgtw]

Why is 11 a bad number for basketball? The Big Ten made it work for 20 years and the Big East has had an odd number for basketball.

[slostang]

Why is 11 a bad number for basketball? The Big Ten made it work for 20 years and the Big East has had an odd number for basketball.

Basketball usually plays two conference games each week. With an odd number of teams one team will have to have a bye each week of conference play. Did not say an odd number was not workable, just an even number is preferred by coaches.

[MplsBison]

Next up on Big East Shuffle: UMass and... Tulsa? Rice? Southern Miss?

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/71927/3-point-shot-florida-without-erik-murphy


The Big East was almost contractually obligated to look at UMass in a football league that included UConn and Temple, but any of the four schools to be added are purely quantity not quality, in terms of athletic success or fan support.

Throwing this out there: could C-USA and the Big Continent (I can't call it the Big East anymore) come to some sort of deal to merge into divisions and maybe play a championship game?

Big Continent is not an appropriate name. They don't have anyone west of the central time zone anymore. Big East or CUSA 2.0 is correct.

UMass makes sense in the same vein as Temple. Both playing football in NFL stadiums and both playing high level A10 bball.

Tulsa and Southern Miss make no sense and I hope they stay in CUSA 1.0. Rice makes great sense to pair with Tulane, as both are high academic, private institutions (wiht large endowments) and New Orleans and Houston are reasonably close to each other. That would make perfect sense to me.

[aceinthehole]

UMass makes sense in the same vein as Temple. Both playing football in NFL stadiums and both playing high level A10 bball.

You haven't watched UMass hoops lately, have you? They have been averaging crowds at Mullins about 1/3 of capacity for years. They haven't been to the NCAAs in more than a decade (1998). The Minutemen hap played home/home deals with NEC teams! Nothing about UMass basketball has been at a "high level" since Coach Calamari left. :)

[MplsBison]

You haven't watched UMass hoops lately, have you? They have been averaging crowds at Mullins about 1/3 of capacity for years. They haven't been to the NCAAs in more than a decade (1998). The Minutemen hap played home/home deals with NEC teams! Nothing about UMass basketball has been at a "high level" since Coach Calamari left. :)

Fair enough. All the same, they're a good fit for the Big East/CUSA 2.0.

[MplsBison]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8831345/catholic-7-talk-tv-deal-commissioners-sources

Small update talking about TV money and that comiss names not known yet.

Also saying it'd be advantageous for the bball schools to get out at the end of this season.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

At the meeting, Fox officials reaffirmed a $500 million rights fee offer that would be predicated on a 12-year deal with the Catholic 7 (DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, Seton Hall, St. John's, Villanova) adding five additional teams to the league.

Xavier, Butler, and Dayton are lay-ups. VCU's in the discussion. But who's the fifth?

On the football side, Aresco is trying to keep San Diego State in the Big Continent by wooing Tulsa.

[dgreco]

Xavier, Butler, and Dayton are lay-ups. VCU's in the discussion. But who's the fifth?

On the football side, Aresco is trying to keep San Diego State in the Big Continent by wooing Tulsa.

you have got to think St. Louis and Creighton are up for grabs (either with VCU or both instead of VCU).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What I keep thinking when I see the OBE 7 + Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis/VCU is: "Gee, with Cincinnati and UConn, that would make a good hoops conference great!"

[Laker]

Xavier, Butler, and Dayton are lay-ups. VCU's in the discussion. But who's the fifth?

On the football side, Aresco is trying to keep San Diego State in the Big Continent by wooing Tulsa.

Doesn't Creighton get 16,000 a game? St. Louis is a little closer.

I think that SDSU will decide this week if they go MWC or Big East. They need 75% of the votes to get back in- I don't know why they wouldn't vote for their return, but SDSU did tick a lot of people off when they left. Let's see if people on both sides swallow their pride.

[HailSzczur]

What I keep thinking when I see the OBE 7 + Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis/VCU is: "Gee, with Cincinnati and UConn, that would make a good hoops conference great!"

For that to happen we need the current shell of a Big East to finally crumble, most likely by SDSU and then SMU and Houston getting picked off by the MWC. The tough part will be convincing Cincy and UConn to park their football teams in a conference like the MAC though.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown and Villanova figure to be the big losers in an arrangement with these mid-majors and/or bottom-feeders.

[MplsBison]

Xavier, Butler, and Dayton are lay-ups. VCU's in the discussion. But who's the fifth?

On the football side, Aresco is trying to keep San Diego State in the Big Continent by wooing Tulsa.

Which if true, is ridiculous. What possible tie is the between SDSU and Tulsa?? SDSU should correctly take one look at that, laugh their butts off and sign on the dotted line with the MWC immediately.

Big East should add Rice for Tulane and that's that.

[MplsBison]

you have got to think St. Louis and Creighton are up for grabs (either with VCU or both instead of VCU).

Creighton, St. Louis, Butler and Xavier seem like locks, either from competitive or market justifications.

Not sure if Dayton will get in due to proximity to Xavier. So perhaps VCU is the fifth. But that would also make VCU the only public in the new league.

[MplsBison]

What I keep thinking when I see the OBE 7 + Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis/VCU is: "Gee, with Cincinnati and UConn, that would make a good hoops conference great!"

Football is still too important at Cincy and UConn, I guess.

Both holding out hope for ACC, somehow, someway.

[MplsBison]

Doesn't Creighton get 16,000 a game? St. Louis is a little closer.

I think that SDSU will decide this week if they go MWC or Big East. They need 75% of the votes to get back in- I don't know why they wouldn't vote for their return, but SDSU did tick a lot of people off when they left. Let's see if people on both sides swallow their pride.

MWC teams in or around the AP top 25 as of Jan 7: SDSU, NM, UNLV and Wyoming.

Boise just beat Wyo and could surprise. Colo St was good last year. Air Force has been good before. Then you have Nevada already in and Utah St coming in. Seems like a pretty stacked bball conf.

Plus it'd obviously be much closer.


There's no possible way SDSU won't go back to the MWC. Anyone want to go next paycheck on that?

[MplsBison]

For that to happen we need the current shell of a Big East to finally crumble, most likely by SDSU and then SMU and Houston getting picked off by the MWC. The tough part will be convincing Cincy and UConn to park their football teams in a conference like the MAC though.

SMU and Houston are locks for the new Big East/CUSA 2.0. SMU already publicly said no thanks to the MWC. They're either going to be an 11 or 12 team conf for 2013 (if SDSU comes back or not).

The CUSA 2.0 is (eventually) moving forward like this, I think:

UConn - UMass
Temple - ??Delaware??
South Fla - Centra Fla
Cincy - Memphis
SMU - Houston
Tulane - Rice?
ECU - ??ODU??JMU??

[MplsBison]

Georgetown and Villanova figure to be the big losers in an arrangement with these mid-majors and/or bottom-feeders.

It's too bad they didn't take that other choice they had. You know, the one where they could've kept playing high-majors all season.

Oh yeah, was never on the table.


I guess they'll have to make due playing the same schools they've been playing since 1979. xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Georgetown and Villanova figure to be the big losers in an arrangement with these mid-majors and/or bottom-feeders.

How is that possible, when it's Villanova driving the bus and Georgetown riding shotgun?

I'm starting to think the OBE7 is making an attempt to poach UConn and Cincinnati by encircling them. Is Cincy really going to stick in a mid-major-at-best Big Continent hoops conference with three Ohio schools, including one in their backyard (Xavier)? Is UConn really going to hold out for the ACC to make a call, rescuing them from holding the Big East bag? It just seems to me that there's a big game of chicken being played here. They're almost daring them to stay in the Big Continent.

No, Nova has been a big winner in this arrangement. The OBE7 suddenly are in a position of strength, with a large potential TV hoops contract to dangle in front of potential members, the biggest in the land. The Big Continent has already lost one school, and potentially could lose more.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, Delaware's president has thrown a lot of cold water on any thoughts of Delaware moving up to FBS or another conference:

http://www.delawareonline.com/article/20130110/SPORTS07/301100046/UD-not-move-just-yet


Delaware officials have repeatedly expressed their loyalty to the CAA and FCS, though The News Journal did learn that a move to the FBS Mid-American Conference has been, at least, studied by UD leaders.

“Right now, there’s too much uncertainty out there to even consider that,” said Ziady, who left an assistant AD’s job at Boston College to become Delaware’s AD in November. “We have a lot of things we need to do here.”

Because of its successful history – just seven losing seasons since 1940 – and large fan following, Delaware has long been considered a prime candidate for a move up.

However, the right conference destination is a contemporary necessity of such a move. FCS schools such as Delaware operate with 63 maximum scholarships, compared to 85 for FBS schools. UD officials, including Harker, have long maintained that the increased costs would likely preclude such a move.

“I think the next thing that’s going to happen will be a great separation,” said Ziady, referring to the elite conferences that constitute the Bowl Championship Series breaking away from the rest of FBS. That group includes the Big Ten, Big 12, Atlantic Coast Conference, Southeastern Conference, Pac-12 and, perhaps, the Big East. Delaware has not been contacted by the Big East in its attempt to survive.

“There’s going to be a lot of reorganization in that next level,” added Ziady, referring to conferences such as those that ODU and Georgia State are joining. “They may be FBS schools now. Schools are losing so much money, there has to be a reassessment. ... It’s not a financial model that can sustained over the long term.”

What’s uncertain, Ziady said, is what a new level might look like. Lower-level FBS leagues could drop into FCS, or a new level could be created.

“How is that next group going to reorganize?” he said. “Could we be part of that? Certainly, because we’re as good from a football, academic, university, location perspective as anyone. There are a lot of reasons why Delaware would be in that mix. It’s just, what would that look like? I don’t think anybody knows.”

Wow.

[aceinthehole]

SMU and Houston are locks for the new Big East/CUSA 2.0. SMU already publicly said no thanks to the MWC. They're either going to be an 11 or 12 team conf for 2013 (if SDSU comes back or not).

The CUSA 2.0 is (eventually) moving forward like this, I think:

UConn - UMass
Temple - ??Delaware??
South Fla - Centra Fla
Cincy - Memphis
SMU - Houston
Tulane - Rice?
ECU - ??ODU??JMU??

My guess is the Big East holds at 10 until it gets a TV contract sorted out. I would then expect the next 2 in line for full membership might be ODU & UTEP.

UConn - Temple
Ciny - Memphis
USF - UCF
Houston - SMU
Tulane - ECU

[DFW HOYA]

I'm admittedly not objective on this subject and oppose it deeply. It's not the best comparison, but it's the equivalent of Lehigh and Lafayette leaving the PL to try to recreate the old MAC (and I don't mean the Mid-American Conference for those unaware of that abbreviation).

This is simply not a sustainable business model and it has the ability to cause considerable collateral damage to the Georgetown football program, whose institutional standing in the new world of the Patriot League isn't exactly a safe harbor.

I have not posted a single item on this in a month and will avoid doing so. Here is the previous summary of my concerns.

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/lastcall.htm

[aceinthehole]

Delaware has not been contacted by the Big East in its attempt to survive

LFN, so what is UConn thinking by not reaching out to UD? xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, so what is UConn thinking by not reaching out to UD? xrolleyesx

They're probably trying to figure out how they can play hoops in the OBE 7 and play football in the MAC xlolx

The difference is Delaware is on the outside of the mess looking in. UConn is in to its waist in quicksand. If you think Tulsa is the answer to their problems, I can't help you.

[GannonFan]

No, Nova has been a big winner in this arrangement. The OBE7 suddenly are in a position of strength, with a large potential TV hoops contract to dangle in front of potential members, the biggest in the land. The Big Continent has already lost one school, and potentially could lose more.

Eh, hard to say that. Sure the TV contract will be bigger and shared with less schools than the current one is, but it still pales in comparison to what it could've been had the Big East stayed together and found a way for football to work. They'll get more than they get now, but the bigger fish are getting a whole lot more. So relatively, any of the OBE7 are going to be lessened versus where they were relative to the rest of the athletic world just last year.

The only thing that will keep the OBE7 from fading away is for them to routinely do well, year in and year out, on the national stage. If they aren't winning games, and winning big games, they will start to matter less and less as the years go on. On the other hand, this does help nova in that it's almost secure now that when Talley leaves they will likely cut football. No reason to hold onto it anymore.

[bluehenbillk]

No, Nova has been a big winner in this arrangement. The OBE7 suddenly are in a position of strength, with a large potential TV hoops contract to dangle in front of potential members, the biggest in the land. The Big Continent has already lost one school, and potentially could lose more.

To steal from Lee Corso, not so fast my friend. TV money is great & all everyone likes to talk about because that drives the football bus. However, when it comes to basketball & specifically what is/was Big East Basketball you have to remember that schools were getting more coin from getting 9 Big East teams in March Madness every year than they were with TV dollars. If you look at the 7 teams splitting off they haven't been stellar in making it to March Madness at all recently outside of the Hoyas & VU till recently. When you lose Cuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, WVU and some of the deep runs those schools made you also lose millions for a conference.

[GannonFan]

To steal from Lee Corso, not so fast my friend. TV money is great & all everyone likes to talk about because that drives the football bus. However, when it comes to basketball & specifically what is/was Big East Basketball you have to remember that schools were getting more coin from getting 9 Big East teams in March Madness every year than they were with TV dollars. If you look at the 7 teams splitting off they haven't been stellar in making it to March Madness at all recently outside of the Hoyas & VU till recently. When you lose Cuse, Pitt, Notre Dame, WVU and some of the deep runs those schools made you also lose millions for a conference.

And that's where it'll depend on how well the teams in the OBE7 do on the court - if they play well enough they can softly glide down the totem pole of basketball importance until they find their place right behind the big boys, or, if they play crappy, it'll be a much quicker descent. Either way, they're going to slip back - they were getting 9 or 10 teams in every year and having plenty of deep runs - that's a lot of units that will be going away year after year even if they play well themselves.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

http://www.hoyasaxa.com/sports/lastcall.htm

DFW- I really appreciate the depth of your analysis of this subject. As a genetic UConn fan, the dismembering of the Big East has been a horror, and it is a small comfort to see that at least one CYO school alum calling the question. Georgetown, Nova and Marquette will carry it. I believe that Seton Hall would not have an athletic program if they were not dragging the bottom of the BE. Witness the collapse of the CAA in hoops this season. The charmed level that Providence, SHU, and DePaul have occupied for the past several years, providing little while getting hooked on the revenue, may not be simply their 'institutional destiny/entitlement'. Good luck carrying their lazy asses.

[Laker]

Didn't the Big East meet today? Has anyone heard any news coming out of that meeting?

[citdog]

Didn't the Big East meet today? Has anyone heard any news coming out of that meeting?

heard app turned them down

[Accelerati Incredibilus]

heard app turned them down

That's APP to you! Gee whiz. You guys win one game in 15 years and all of a sudden think you're something special!

[citdog]

That's APP to you! Gee whiz. You guys win one game in 15 years and all of a sudden think you're something special!

BOOM! IN MY FACE!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What I keep thinking when I see the OBE 7 + Xavier, Dayton, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis/VCU is: "Gee, with Cincinnati and UConn, that would make a good hoops conference great!"

http://ajerseyguy.com/?p=4719


While the football half of what remains of the Big East was conducting meetings in Dallas, hoping to keep San Diego State–and other nervous members–in the fold, the group of 7 Catholic schools were considering the possibility which would add existing football members Connecticut and Cincinnati into the group for all sports but football.

According to sources at Connecticut, some UConn officials were considering a plan which would keep the Huskies with the Catholic 7–Marquette, DePaul, St. John’s, Seton Hall, Georgetown, Villanova and Providence, as well as Cincinnati.

Others, including UConn Athletic director Ward Manuel, who was at the Big East meeting in Dallas, emphatically said that the Huskies’ intention was to keep all sports together in one league.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If I'm Uconn I'm trying to recruit a soccer team to Hartford so I can justify dropping the football program.

I don't see Cincy and Uconn joining up with the non-football playing schools unless the MAC is very, VERY generous.

[aceinthehole]

I don't see Cincy and Uconn joining up with the non-football playing schools unless the MAC is very, VERY generous.

Not happening. UConn has no choice but to make the best of a bad situation. They are staying with the football scholls in the BE/C-USA 2.0.

http://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-big-east-meetings-0112-20130111,0,5944129.story

[MplsBison]

Not happening. UConn has no choice but to make the best of a bad situation. They are staying with the football scholls in the BE/C-USA 2.0.

http://www.courant.com/sports/college/hc-big-east-meetings-0112-20130111,0,5944129.story

SDSU is not going to join the CUSA 2.0. I strongly believe that as my intuition.

They will stay in the MWC as all sports members.

[dgtw]

The Big East will exist in some form for football and will be better than the MAC, at least in terms of public perception. Cincy and UConn would be fools to split their sports.

[MplsBison]

The Big East will exist in some form for football and will be better than the MAC, at least in terms of public perception. Cincy and UConn would be fools to split their sports.

This is my intuition for the CUSA 2.0 football conference in 2013:

UConn
Temple
Cincy
Memphis
South Florida
Central Florida
SMU
Houston

These are mostly programs with 30-40k stadiums that can draw 20-30k average crowds throughout the year (or more for big games). Definitely a step up from the MAC in terms of program success. Probably not much better than the top end of the MAC on the field.

[aceinthehole]

This is my intuition for the CUSA 2.0 football conference in 2013:

UConn
Temple
Cincy
Memphis
South Florida
Central Florida
SMU
Houston

These are mostly programs with 30-40k stadiums that can draw 20-30k average crowds throughout the year (or more for big games). Definitely a step up from the MAC in terms of program success. Probably not much better than the top end of the MAC on the field.

You're missing Tulance and ECU. They have already been invited, I doubt they will be asked to leave.

[MplsBison]

You're missing Tulance and ECU. They have already been invited, I doubt they will be asked to leave.

They'll be onboard starting in 2014, a year after SMU, Houston, Memphis and Central Florida come over from CUSA 1.0.

Could also look at adding Tulsa to pair with SMU so that Houston can pair with Tulane. Assuming ECU will become all sports members in 2014 (not just football only), they could look at Charlotte or ODU (or JMU if CUSA 1.0 adds them) to pair with them.

[Laker]

There may be an announcement this afternoon:

http://espn.go.com/ncf/conversations/_/id/8850122/sources-san-diego-state-reinstated-mountain-west-conference-member

[MplsBison]

There may be an announcement this afternoon:

http://espn.go.com/ncf/conversations/_/id/8850122/sources-san-diego-state-reinstated-mountain-west-conference-member

The Big East was never going to be a continent wide conference. That concept was doomed from the start. This officially cements it, the BE will only have schools in the eastern and central time zones.

Air Force won't be joining any conference as the only school west of Dallas and what incentive is there now for Navy to join? They'll stay independent.


Therefore, barring something drastic, my prediction for the 2013 season is basically going to be correct. Those 8 teams, 6 of which are former CUSA teams, will represent the Big East in football.

As to what schools will be joining in 2014, I believe both Tulane and East Carolina will join in all sports and we could see Tulsa and Charlotte or ODU added to that mix as well.

[citdog]

MEANWHILE IN BOONE, NC



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC-13JtWu1w

[ccd494]

Seems unrealistic, citdog. All those bumpkins are wearing pants.

[The Moody1]

Seems unrealistic, citdog. All those bumpkins are wearing pants.


Bumpkins! Have you ever even been to Maine? Those goobers make NC mountain folks look like city slickers. xsmiley_wix

[ccd494]

Bumpkins! Have you ever even been to Maine? Those goobers make NC mountain folks look like city slickers. xsmiley_wix

Sure, but in Maine you have to wear pants, no matter how much of a rube you are. It's damn cold.

[ASUMountaineer]

MEANWHILE IN BOONE, NC



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CC-13JtWu1w

I think it's disturbing that you have such a hard on for all things Appalachian State. xnodx

[citdog]

I think it's disturbing that you have such a hard on for all things Appalachian State. xnodx


i think it's funny that that press conference that was supposed to take place the monday after gsu's season ended hasn't gotten started yet. you should get used to being laughed at because y'all have talked SO much **** yet nobody wants you......

[fc97]

i think it's funny that that press conference that was supposed to take place the monday after gsu's season ended hasn't gotten started yet. you should get used to being laughed at because y'all have talked SO much **** yet nobody wants you......

ZING

as appy fans say

[ASUMountaineer]

i think it's funny that that press conference that was supposed to take place the monday after gsu's season ended hasn't gotten started yet. you should get used to being laughed at because y'all have talked SO much **** yet nobody wants you......

You do notice that you're the only one that can't let go of all things App State, right? Besides, not all of us were banking a press conference after GSU lost, that was just ridiculous.

[citdog]

You do notice that you're the only one that can't let go of all things App State, right? Besides, not all of us were banking a press conference after GSU lost, that was just ridiculous.


i don't really care if anyone else is enjoying this even half as much as I am but I think it's about the funniest thing to happen lately!


charlotte is fbs too and they haven't even played a game xlolx

[ASUMountaineer]

i don't really care if anyone else is enjoying this even half as much as I am but I think it's about the funniest thing to happen lately!


charlotte is fbs too and they haven't even played a game xlolx

What is Charlotte? UNCC will be FBS in 2015. Good for them.

My point was, you've had a hard on for all things App State for years. Appaholic must have left quite an impression on your uncircumcised schmeckle. xlolx

[Laker]

Big East going with no divisions this season- they have announced their schedule for 2013.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8856617/big-east-10-team-league-divisions-2013-sources

[Laker]

FAU and MTSU are moving to CUSA a year early. Does this mean that the Sunbelt will be looking for some FCS teams?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8857198/florida-atlantic-middle-tennessee-state-headed-conference-usa-sources-say

[citdog]

What is Charlotte? UNCC will be FBS in 2015. Good for them.

My point was, you've had a hard on for all things App State for years. Appaholic must have left quite an impression on your uncircumcised schmeckle. xlolx


http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/29/e44ea8bf-aa76-4c0f-ab8a-d1c1d310dfe7.jpg

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FAU and MTSU are moving to CUSA a year early. Does this mean that the Sunbelt will be looking for some FCS teams?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8857198/florida-atlantic-middle-tennessee-state-headed-conference-usa-sources-say

Conference Killer Benson said that he wanted to get to 10 schools. However, NMSU and Idaho are still sitting out there, too.

[ASUMountaineer]

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2011/3/29/e44ea8bf-aa76-4c0f-ab8a-d1c1d310dfe7.jpg

That's true...and given your relationship with Appa......................

[citdog]

That's true...and given your relationship with Appa......................


he's demi......i'm swayze


http://toappomattox.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/northsouth.jpg

[MplsBison]

Big East going with no divisions this season- they have announced their schedule for 2013.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8856617/big-east-10-team-league-divisions-2013-sources

Whoops. I failed.

Didn't realize Rutgers and Louisville were still in for 2013 season.


The other 8 though, I got right. Tulane and ECU will join as full sports members in 2014 (I predict that for ECU). Also I Tulsa looks good to join those two in the Big East in 2014 and to even it up at 12 I just don't know if they'll go for another CUSA team or if they'd look at UMass for a better TV contract?

Otherwise, UAB is reasonably close to Memphis or they could look at Charlotte, ODU or maybe even Marshall to pair with ECU.

[MplsBison]

FAU and MTSU are moving to CUSA a year early. Does this mean that the Sunbelt will be looking for some FCS teams?

http://espn.go.com/college-football/story/_/id/8857198/florida-atlantic-middle-tennessee-state-headed-conference-usa-sources-say

The real kicker I think is yet to come. At least Tulsa moving from CUSA to Big East and possibly one more from CUSA to Big East means that CUSA will look to replace with Sun Belt teams again (what else can they do?).

Probably Western Kentucky and if two leave then I honestly don't know which team makes the most sense for CUSA? Maybe try to get into the Atlanta market with Georgia St?


But when that is announced I think you'll see the Sun Belt grab App St and Georgia Southern along with New Mexico St and maybe Idaho as a football only member.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Guesstimates for Temple's home game attendance

UCF - 18k
UCONN - 21k
Houston - 15k
Louisville - 24k

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Guesstimates for Temple's home game attendance

UCF - 18k
UCONN - 21k
Houston - 15k
Louisville - 24k

I am steadfast in agreement that this "Big Southeast" cannot work for UConn and Temple as it stands today.

[citdog]

I am steadfast in agreement that this "Big Southeast" cannot work for UConn and Temple as it stands today.

3 out of the 4 are Confederate States.......for the first time in a while LFN and I agree

[dgtw]

The Sun Belt is suddenly down to eight teams for next year. The problem is they had planned on an eight game schedule for next year, so now everyone will be scrambling for someone to fill in the hole in their schedule. North Texas, South Alabama and Western Kentucky are the only ones who don't have an FCS scheduled, so the others may have a tough time finding someone. The Troy AD floated the idea of everyone playing someone twice.

[walliver]

The Sun Belt is suddenly down to eight teams for next year. The problem is they had planned on an eight game schedule for next year, so now everyone will be scrambling for someone to fill in the hole in their schedule. North Texas, South Alabama and Western Kentucky are the only ones who don't have an FCS scheduled, so the others may have a tough time finding someone. The Troy AD floated the idea of everyone playing someone twice.

I believe they could play a second FCS, but it wouldn't count toward bowl eligibility.

One of the problems with the SunBelt is that every team in the league wants to go to C-USA, and as a result, has no real rules to preventing people from leaving on very short notice.

[aceinthehole]

I am steadfast in agreement that this "Big Southeast" cannot work for UConn and Temple as it stands today.


They have no choice. Without an ACC invite, this is the best available option for UConn. They have to make it work, until something better come along.

[MplsBison]

They have no choice. Without an ACC invite, this is the best available option for UConn. They have to make it work, until something better come along.

Best option for their football team. Arguably they could join with the Catholic 7 in all sports and put football in the MAC as a better overall option for bball and the non-football sports.

This applies to Temple as well (although their bball conference would more likely be the A10). Temple, Uconn, Umass and Buffalo would make a northeast contingent in the MAC football conference.

[Cocky]

Sunbelt has the problem of Troys president as the Chairman. Troy doesnt have offers to leave which leads him to block moves to add schools. Troy understands that adding schools will limit their ability to change conferences in the future as the new schools will quickly move ahead in the pecking order. The SB will make their moves when Troy and the other schools feel the other conferences have made all of thier changes with these schools left out.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sunbelt has the problem of Troys president as the Chairman. Troy doesnt have offers to leave which leads him to block moves to add schools. Troy understands that adding schools will limit their ability to change conferences in the future as the new schools will quickly move ahead in the pecking order. The SB will make their moves when Troy and the other schools feel the other conferences have made all of thier changes with these schools left out.

Gee, who wouldn't sign up for this? xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They have no choice. Without an ACC invite, this is the best available option for UConn. They have to make it work, until something better come along.

Which will be... what?

How many times will the ACC pass them up before they see a future of UConn/Tulane matchups as something that isn't in their best interest?

How badly will basketball atrophy after, say, five years of playing UConn/Houston matchups? What will happen to the NCAA counters? The TV money?

All this, AND dwindling attendance in football and basketball? Anyone who tries to shop the idea that UConn/East Carolina will do just as well as UConn/Syracuse is kidding themselves.

Surely even you could come up with a better alternative than this fiasco of a conference. Aside from the ACC having a change of heart, though, what realistically could crop up for UConn? There's only really the MAC option, which ain't much of an option. If you don't go down that path, you're now talking about making a brand-new FBS league.

[aceinthehole]

Which will be... what?

How many times will the ACC pass them up before they see a future of UConn/Tulane matchups as something that isn't in their best interest?

How badly will basketball atrophy after, say, five years of playing UConn/Houston matchups? What will happen to the NCAA counters? The TV money?

All this, AND dwindling attendance in football and basketball? Anyone who tries to shop the idea that UConn/East Carolina will do just as well as UConn/Syracuse is kidding themselves.

Surely even you could come up with a better alternative than this fiasco of a conference. Aside from the ACC having a change of heart, though, what realistically could crop up for UConn? There's only really the MAC option, which ain't much of an option. If you don't go down that path, you're now talking about making a brand-new FBS league.

WTF are you saying? The MAC/C7 combo is not a better alterative for UConn Athletics. there will be no "new" conference started from scratch. This is what it is - they must make the best of a BAD situation. Never have I said this is ideal for UConn - they have no choice!

If the SEC/Big XII/BigTen take some ACC teams, there may be a spot for Uconn. That is what they are waiting for. Until then they will keep SMU,UH, etc

[MplsBison]

WTF are you saying? The MAC/C7 combo is not a better alterative for UConn Athletics. there will be no "new" conference started from scratch. This is what it is - they must make the best of a BAD situation. Never have I said this is ideal for UConn - they have no choice!

If the SEC/Big XII/BigTen take some ACC teams, there may be a spot for Uconn. That is what they are waiting for. Until then they will keep SMU,UH, etc

Again, not so cut and dried unless you believe Uconn football is all that should matter (and I think that's not the case for most alumni). The C7 + whoever they add would undoubtedly be better for Uconn bball than the CUSA 2.0.

[HailSzczur]

Again, not so cut and dried unless you believe Uconn football is all that should matter (and I think that's not the case for most alumni). The C7 + whoever they add would undoubtedly be better for Uconn bball than the CUSA 2.0.

This is what everyone at Nova is hoping and praying for. Ideally we want to get the C7 up to 12 member probably. With UConn, Xaiver, and Butler that gets the conference to 10 with teams like Dayton, Creighton, VCU still on the table. My biggest fear is that the C7 ends up scrapping the bottom of the barrel and diluting the league. With dead weight like DePaul and Seton Hall we need quality basketball programs like UConn

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WTF are you saying? The MAC/C7 combo is not a better alterative for UConn Athletics. there will be no "new" conference started from scratch. This is what it is - they must make the best of a BAD situation. Never have I said this is ideal for UConn - they have no choice!

If the SEC/Big XII/BigTen take some ACC teams, there may be a spot for Uconn. That is what they are waiting for. Until then they will keep SMU,UH, etc

You keep saying they have no choice. But they do! It's just not something your brain can grasp.

[aceinthehole]

You keep saying they have no choice. But they do! It's just not something your brain can grasp.

They also have the "choice" to join the NEC. Does that really make it a "choice" that UConn is considering?

[MplsBison]

This is what everyone at Nova is hoping and praying for. Ideally we want to get the C7 up to 12 member probably. With UConn, Xaiver, and Butler that gets the conference to 10 with teams like Dayton, Creighton, VCU still on the table. My biggest fear is that the C7 ends up scrapping the bottom of the barrel and diluting the league. With dead weight like DePaul and Seton Hall we need quality basketball programs like UConn

What would you say to adding Temple over Dayton? I know the automatic reaction would seem to be no we already have a Philly school. But Dayton and Xavier are basically the same market and Temple has the better program.

[HailSzczur]

What would you say to adding Temple over Dayton? I know the automatic reaction would seem to be no we already have a Philly school. But Dayton and Xavier are basically the same market and Temple has the better program.

Xaiver is first out of 3, that is for sure. As far as Dayton/Temple its tough. I know Temple truly is the better program, brings more to the table, and would most likely help the conference more. That said, it's Temple... and I don't think I could ever force myself to want to help Temple. I'm loving it too much right now watching them go down with the shop that is the Big East.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WTF are you saying? The MAC/C7 combo is not a better alterative for UConn Athletics.

Which situation makes UConn more money - MAC/C7 or Big Southeast? In the rosiest of scenarios, the Big Southeast makes marginally more money, with the cost of flying all their teams across country.

Which situation keeps them with more rivalries? MAC/C7 or the Big Southeast? In football, it's a complete wash - they just started playing Temple. In basketball, it's no contest.

Which situation keeps them with lower travel costs? MAC/C7, hands down.

So, which is better again?

[dgtw]

I believe they could play a second FCS, but it wouldn't count toward bowl eligibility.


Yeah, that's what I meant. They could play all NAIA games OOC, but that wouldn't help their bowl chances.

[citdog]

Meanwhile in Boone, NC.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_TfpXiVsDc&feature=player_embedded

[WH49er]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/jeremy-fowler/21599899/smaller-conferences-crafting-blueprint-for-playoff-revenue-sharing


The door is closing very quickly for anyone who wants to move up.

[asumike83]

Meanwhile in Boone, NC.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0_TfpXiVsDc&feature=player_embedded

Are you implying that everyone who voted Bush/Cheney '04 believes in Bigfoot because of the sticker behind her head? That is a dangerous implication!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

In this proposed system, more than half the group's roughly $86 million playoff pot would be distributed among the Big East, Mountain West, Mid-American Conference, Conference USA and Sun Belt as guaranteed base shares, according to a source with direct knowledge of the discussions. The source expects those shares to be evenly split, but added discussions are ongoing.

The second tier pays out based on a conference's body of work – the top conference gets the highest amount, then “X” amount for the next-rated conference, and on down.

The third tier pays a kicker to the conference with the highest-ranked team, which is guaranteed an access bowl bid or, if among the top-four teams in the country, a semifinal berth in the playoff.

IMO, if this is true, this should cement the deal to put UConn and Temple in the OBE7 and the MAC for football-only, because the Big Southeast will be treated no more special than the MAC. The cost savings, the equality of treatment for football and the massive upgrade in hoops money should make this a no-brainer.

The chance of any of these conferences having a squad make the four-team playoff is still close to zero, and with it codified that the five conferences will be hogging up all the money and will get "extra special bonuses" for making the playoffs, it's even more remote.

Would be curious to get DFW's take on a hoops conference with the Big East 7 + UConn + Temple + Butler + VCU + Xavier + Cincinnati + St. Louis. Still a bit spread out, but definitely a more workable 14 team power hoops conference with the South and Central Florida's cast out.

[Laker]

The key word in this football payoff system is "proposed". I doubt if it will be approved.

[WH49er]

The key word in this football payoff system is "proposed". I doubt if it will be approved.



It puts more seperation between the soon to be Big 4 conferences and the other guys, why wouldn't it happen? They may even squash the SunBelt in the process.

[DFW HOYA]

Would be curious to get DFW's take on a hoops conference with the Big East 7 + UConn + Temple + Butler + VCU + Xavier + Cincinnati + St. Louis. Still a bit spread out, but definitely a more workable 14 team power hoops conference with the South and Central Florida's cast out.

What people see in the CYO schools is beyond me. It's not a sustainable business model for Georgetown or Villanova.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What people see in the CYO schools is beyond me. It's not a sustainable business model for Georgetown or Villanova.

Even with those 14 schools in 2 divisions?

Big East
UConn
Villanova
Temple
Georgetown
St. John's
Seton Hall
Providence

Big Midwest
Marquette
DePaul
St. Louis
Cincinnati
Xavier
Butler
Dayton

Assuming Dayton is in and VCU is out. That's awfully two fairly compact divisions with maybe, what, 3 trips out East?

[Sader87]

What people see in the CYO schools is beyond me. It's not a sustainable business model for Georgetown or Villanova.

I'd be a bit surprised if both Georgetown and Villanova were not playing inter-collegiete sports at a level closer to Holy Cross and Fordham than Notre Dame and BC in another decade or so.

[CFBfan]

I'd be a bit surprised if both Georgetown and Villanova were not playing inter-collegiete sports at a level closer to Holy Cross and Fordham than Notre Dame and BC in another decade or so.

other then hoops they are pretty much there now

[walliver]

The key word in this football payoff system is "proposed". I doubt if it will be approved.

I suspect the current proposal or something similar will pass.

This unearned money is nothing but the 5 BCS conferences paying the lesser schools not to file an antitrust lawsuit, and discourage their alumni in government from raising a ruckus. Left to their own devices the BCS conferences would keep all their money, but anti-trust issues would make that risky. A small amount of the BCS money will actually go to FCS conferences (a small payoff).

The second tier actually seems designed to punish the SunBelt. It also has the effect of making FCS-move-ups less attractive since the assumption is that they would bring down a conference's rating. ASU, GSU, and ODU fans may disagree, but I believe that is the general feeling among the FBS crowd.

Eliminating the SunBelt would initially eliminate the flow of FCS schools into FBS. Eventually, the FBS wannabe's would sue the NCAA. Current rules preventing teams from moving up are a blatant anti-trust violation, and the NCAA's policy would be very difficult to defend in court.

As for what this has to do with FCS wannabe's, the outcome of these negotiations will make a big difference. Specifically, is it in the SunBelt's interest to expand and create a bigger pie, or contract to 8 teams and each get a larger share of the pie.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for what this has to do with FCS wannabe's, the outcome of these negotiations will make a big difference. Specifically, is it in the SunBelt's interest to expand and create a bigger pie, or contract to 8 teams and each get a larger share of the pie.

Keeping in mind that 1) a Sun Belt Network sort of revenue plan will never work (witness the fact that The Mtn, the Mountain West's TV network, failed miserably), 2) the amount of TV money ESPN will pay for Sun Belt football (which is undisclosed) is unlikely to rise much, and 3) Sun Belt is effectively low-major basketball. Unlike the Big Ten, Pac 12, etc., the pie for the Sun Belt is probably going to stay what it's always been.

That's not to say that the Sun Belt won't expand. They might feel they need to do so in order to stay alive in FBS. But they'll stay on the margins for sure, with huge athletics expenses and soaking the students in the form of huge student fees in order to be able to say that they're FBS.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd be a bit surprised if both Georgetown and Villanova were not playing inter-collegiete sports at a level closer to Holy Cross and Fordham than Notre Dame and BC in another decade or so.


other then hoops they are pretty much there now

Really? Are you sure?

Men''s soccer--NCAA national finalists
Women's soccer: NCAA round of 16
Women's cross country: 2011 NCAA champions
Men's cross country: Top 20 nationally
Women's track: Top 15-20 nationally
Men's track: Top 25-30 nationally
Men's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 20 program
Women's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 10 program
Sailing (non-NCAA): Four national championships since 2003
Current ranking in the NACDA Directors Cup: #14.

When was the last year Holy Cross or Fordham was in the top 10 in any of these sports?

Methinks it's not a good idea to judge the Hoyas as a whole based on PL football.

[Sader87]

Really? Are you sure?

Men''s soccer--NCAA national finalists
Women's soccer: NCAA round of 16
Women's cross country: 2011 NCAA champions
Men's cross country: Top 20 nationally
Women's track: Top 15-20 nationally
Men's track: Top 25-30 nationally
Men's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 20 program
Women's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 10 program
Sailing (non-NCAA): Four national championships since 2003
Current ranking in the NACDA Directors Cup: #14.

When was the last year Holy Cross or Fordham was in the top 10 in any of these sports?

Methinks it's not a good idea to judge the Hoyas as a whole based on PL football.

Really? Soccer, track and sailing? Um, about 7 people care.

[ccd494]

Really? Soccer, track and sailing? Um, about 7 people care.

So what did you mean when you said they would be at the same level as an athletic program as Fordham and Holy Cross? Just basketball and football?

Georgetown hoops is going to be fine. They will still get big non conference games, their league will be one of the top 10 in the country, and they will still be NCAA caliber every year. You don't need to be in a BCS league to have high level hoops- look at Gonzaga, look at Butler, look at Xavier, look at Temple (to now), etc.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, Georgetown's going to be much better off in the Eastern wing of the OBE7+ league than they would taking trips to Tulane, SMU and South Florida, especially when UConn bites the bullet and moves their football program to the MAC and joins the league. They will stay in the elite tier in basketball and will see their expenses drop in all of their Olympic sports.

[Nova09]

So what did you mean when you said they would be at the same level as an athletic program as Fordham and Holy Cross? Just basketball and football?

Georgetown hoops is going to be fine. They will still get big non conference games, their league will be one of the top 10 in the country, and they will still be NCAA caliber every year. You don't need to be in a BCS league to have high level hoops- look at Gonzaga, look at Butler, look at Xavier, look at Temple (to now), etc.

Perfect response. Sader I usually love your posts but I'm really confused about your initial point if you were excluding the sports "no one" cares about. You said take basketball away, and Nova and Gtown athletic depts are the same as HC. DFW pointed out that Gtown is very strong nationally in a umber of sports (I could do the same for Nova) and you said those sports don't matter. So did you just mean Nova, Gtown, and HC football are on the same level?

[citdog]

Really? Are you sure?

Men''s soccer--NCAA national finalists
Women's soccer: NCAA round of 16
Women's cross country: 2011 NCAA champions
Men's cross country: Top 20 nationally
Women's track: Top 15-20 nationally
Men's track: Top 25-30 nationally
Men's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 20 program
Women's lacrosse: down year in 2012, usually top 10 program
Sailing (non-NCAA): Four national championships since 2003
Current ranking in the NACDA Directors Cup: #14.

When was the last year Holy Cross or Fordham was in the top 10 in any of these sports?

Methinks it's not a good idea to judge the Hoyas as a whole based on PL football.


and 61,000 dollars per student and you cry poverty.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown hoops is going to be fine. They will still get big non conference games, their league will be one of the top 10 in the country, and they will still be NCAA caliber every year. You don't need to be in a BCS league to have high level hoops- look at Gonzaga, look at Butler, look at Xavier, look at Temple (to now), etc.

Georgetown can't float a $31 million athletic budget off of games with Gonzaga and Butler. It's not a sustainable business model.

[Babar]

Georgetown can't float a $31 million athletic budget off of games with Gonzaga and Butler. It's not a sustainable business model.

The easy, obvious solution here is to physically move the university to some place with cheaper land. Kind of like Manhattan retirees funding their Florida life by selling the old brownstone.

Don't think just do it.

[superman7515]

Should be plenty of options for FCS teams looking to move up...

Gordon Gee Calls Big Ten Expansion Talks "Ongoing" In Meeting (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/21614027/gordon-gee-calls-big-ten-expansion-talks-ongoing-in-meeting)


Ohio State president Gordon Gee has made plenty of headlines in the past few seasons when talking to reporters. But this time, it's his remarks to the school's athletic council that might raise eyebrows when it comes to the future of the Big Ten.

According to the minutes of the council's December meeting obtained by the Columbus Dispatch, Gee told councillors that "there has been ongoing discussion" within the Big Ten about expanding beyond the conference's current 14 members. Gee reportedly stated that he "believes there is movement towards three or four super conferences that are made up of 16-20 teams."

And in perhaps the most interesting comment from the minutes, Gee told a student member of the council that the Big Ten had "opportunities" to either add more schools in the Midwest or "move further south in the (E)ast."

That last comment will only add further grist to the rumor mill contention that the Big Ten could be interested in adding Virginia or Georgia Tech to its Rutgers/Maryland East Coast collection. But it's also worth noting that Gee offered no reported timetable for such additions, and that the 16-team superconference could still be several years away. If the Big Ten is waiting on the SEC, Pac-12 or Big 12 to move to 16 teams, those three leagues would have to become far less content than they've seemed to be since their latest respective rounds of expansion.

More at the link....


Or will there?

Big 12 Looking At Partnership With ACC & Two More Leagues (http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/blog/eye-on-college-football/21614091/report-big-12-looking-to-partner-up-with-acc-two-other-leagues)


The Big 12 is looking into a possible alliance with the ACC and two other unidentified leagues that could affect scheduling, marketing and maybe even television contracts among the member schools, according to Kirk Bohls of the Austin American-Statesman.

One of the byproducts of such a move is that it could put a halt to further expansion by the leagues.

"We've had conversations with three other leagues," Big 12 commissioner Bob Bowlsby told the American-Statesman on Friday afternoon. "The ACC is one of them. It's a process of discovery that would provide some of the benefits of larger membership without actually adding members."

Bowlsby declined to name the other two leagues, but the Pac-12 Conference is presumed to be one of them because that 12-team league is landlocked with the Big 12 to its east, which makes Pac-12 expansion with like major-college institutions more geographically prohibitive.

Bowlsby stressed that nothing is imminent -- "It's purely exploratory," he said -- but that further discussions would take place at conference athletic director meetings beginning next Monday...

[DFW HOYA]

The easy, obvious solution here is to physically move the university to some place with cheaper land. Kind of like Manhattan retirees funding their Florida life by selling the old brownstone.


http://georgetown.patch.com/articles/forest-city-will-help-find-georgetown-s-next-100-acres

[ccd494]

Georgetown can't float a $31 million athletic budget off of games with Gonzaga and Butler. It's not a sustainable business model.

So who do you want to play? UConn, Memphis and Cincinnati are the big names that you are losing by joining the C7. If Georgetown's entire athletics budget hinges on playing those three teams, yikes. Frankly, Xavier replacing Cincinnati is a wash.

[MplsBison]

Georgetown can't float a $31 million athletic budget off of games with Gonzaga and Butler. It's not a sustainable business model.

There is no option forward that will be comparable to what Gtown has had in recent seasons (or even this season).

Neither the CYO or the CUSA 2.0 gets you what you just had. But you MUST recognize that one of them will get you more money than the other.


So do it. I implore you: acknowledge that going with the Catholic schools is "less bad" than going with the 2nd rate public schools in their respective states in the CUSA 2.0.

[MplsBison]

I suspect the current proposal or something similar will pass.

This unearned money is nothing but the 5 BCS conferences paying the lesser schools not to file an antitrust lawsuit, and discourage their alumni in government from raising a ruckus. Left to their own devices the BCS conferences would keep all their money, but anti-trust issues would make that risky. A small amount of the BCS money will actually go to FCS conferences (a small payoff).

The second tier actually seems designed to punish the SunBelt. It also has the effect of making FCS-move-ups less attractive since the assumption is that they would bring down a conference's rating. ASU, GSU, and ODU fans may disagree, but I believe that is the general feeling among the FBS crowd.

Eliminating the SunBelt would initially eliminate the flow of FCS schools into FBS. Eventually, the FBS wannabe's would sue the NCAA. Current rules preventing teams from moving up are a blatant anti-trust violation, and the NCAA's policy would be very difficult to defend in court.

As for what this has to do with FCS wannabe's, the outcome of these negotiations will make a big difference. Specifically, is it in the SunBelt's interest to expand and create a bigger pie, or contract to 8 teams and each get a larger share of the pie.

It's in the Sun Belt's interest to stay alive. To me, that means more than the bare minimum of teams when they could lose more schools seemingly at any second.

[MplsBison]

Keeping in mind that 1) a Sun Belt Network sort of revenue plan will never work (witness the fact that The Mtn, the Mountain West's TV network, failed miserably), 2) the amount of TV money ESPN will pay for Sun Belt football (which is undisclosed) is unlikely to rise much, and 3) Sun Belt is effectively low-major basketball. Unlike the Big Ten, Pac 12, etc., the pie for the Sun Belt is probably going to stay what it's always been.

That's not to say that the Sun Belt won't expand. They might feel they need to do so in order to stay alive in FBS. But they'll stay on the margins for sure, with huge athletics expenses and soaking the students in the form of huge student fees in order to be able to say that they're FBS.

As opposed to...what? Dropping football?

Because that's the only other feasible option. There's not a single program in FBS that is losing money who could then make money in FCS. There is no such thing and never will be.

[GATA]

As opposed to...what? Dropping football?

Because that's the only other feasible option. There's not a single program in FBS that is losing money who could then make money in FCS. There is no such thing and never will be.

wrong...

[MplsBison]

wrong...

Who ya got?

I would love to hear the logic of a FBS school losing money now that would make money playing full scholarship, full expense DII football (otherwise known as FCS).

[Babar]

Who ya got?

I would love to hear the logic of a FBS school losing money now that would make money playing full scholarship, full expense DII football (otherwise known as FCS).

I'm pretty sure UMass would lose a lot less money if it were FCS. Though that's not quite the same thing.

[MplsBison]

I'm pretty sure UMass would lose a lot less money if it were FCS. Though that's not quite the same thing.

Not the same thing in the slightest. Losing is losing. That's why I specifically said going from losing in FBS to making in FCS.

There is no such thing.


He was probably thinking, like you, going from losing in FBS to losing less in FCS. That's not a justifiable move, in my opinion. If money is the only thing that matters, then you have to drop the sport. It's a money loser at any level except the very top, period.

But if you want a football program that your school can be proud of, then you accept the fact you're going to lose some money in doing it.


Obviously I understand there are some very rare, very special exception cases to the above statement like state flagship universities in very small states -- NDSU, SDSU, Montana, etc.

There are no such cases playing FBS now that I'm aware of. Idaho would be the closest possible and they would lose money - most likely a lot more money than they do now - if they moved down.

[Babar]

Not the same thing in the slightest. Losing is losing. That's why I specifically said going from losing in FBS to making in FCS.

There is no such thing.


He was probably thinking, like you, going from losing in FBS to losing less in FCS. That's not a justifiable move, in my opinion. If money is the only thing that matters, then you have to drop the sport. It's a money loser at any level except the very top, period.
...

There are no such cases playing FBS now that I'm aware of. Idaho would be the closest possible and they would lose money - most likely a lot more money than they do now - if they moved down.

Maybe. Athletic department accounting is screwy and generally designed to obscure bad news. I'm pretty agnostic on this question because there's just so much hidden.

I will say about 30 seconds with Google shows that Memphis actually loses several million on football and turns a profit on basketball. Not clear they'd turn a profit in FCS, but seems at least possible.

I agree that athletics are worth spending on if they're worthwhile at all. I actually think revenue-positive sports have cancerous tendencies. But it doesn't follow that any cost is worth paying--it's rational to say that sports are worth FCS expenditures but not what, say, USF is spending.

[MplsBison]

Maybe. Athletic department accounting is screwy and generally designed to obscure bad news. I'm pretty agnostic on this question because there's just so much hidden.

I will say about 30 seconds with Google shows that Memphis actually loses several million on football and turns a profit on basketball. Not clear they'd turn a profit in FCS, but seems at least possible.

I agree that athletics are worth spending on if they're worthwhile at all. I actually think revenue-positive sports have cancerous tendencies. But it doesn't follow that any cost is worth paying--it's rational to say that sports are worth FCS expenditures but not what, say, USF is spending.

It's not as simple as saying 85 scholarships vs 63 scholarships. Not even close. You have to consider all costs and all incomes into the equation.

Like I said: it is impossible to be a money loser in FBS but then be a money maker in FCS. What meager amount you'd save in direct costs will be eaten up and then some in lost income. Not to mention the damage to the reputation of the school for downgrading and other hard to measure aspects like that.


That's why I've always maintained that if Idaho can't make FBS work at some minimum level as an independent (assuming no conference is going to throw them a lifeline), then they're just going to drop the sport. They will not accept the idea of "moving down" and everything it entails.

[Go...gate]

I know this sounds far-fetched, but there is one alternative that would probably satisfy most in the Georgetown camp, including the Jesuits and bean-counters.

Join the Ivy League.

Trade in GU's athletics overhead for even more academic prestige. Use McDonough for BB (it is larger than at least two or three facilities in the Ivy), add about 5,000 seats to the Multi-Purpose facility, and voila! you are all set.

[CFBfan]

I know this sounds far-fetched, but there is one alternative that would probably satisfy most in the Georgetown camp, including the Jesuits and bean-counters.

Join the Ivy League.

Trade in GU's athletics overhead for even more academic prestige. Use McDonough for BB (it is larger than at least two or three facilities in the Ivy), add about 5,000 seats to the Multi-Purpose facility, and voila! you are all set.

far fetched from a will the ancient 8 consider it but clearly GU's single best option (IMO)

[Babar]

It's not as simple as saying 85 scholarships vs 63 scholarships. Not even close. You have to consider all costs and all incomes into the equation.

Like I said: it is impossible to be a money loser in FBS but then be a money maker in FCS. What meager amount you'd save in direct costs will be eaten up and then some in lost income. Not to mention the damage to the reputation of the school for downgrading and other hard to measure aspects like that.


That's why I've always maintained that if Idaho can't make FBS work at some minimum level as an independent (assuming no conference is going to throw them a lifeline), then they're just going to drop the sport. They will not accept the idea of "moving down" and everything it entails.

This is kind of an unfalsifiable premise--if athletic directors and university presidents aren't willing to move down because of their fear of effects on reputation, then we don't know what the effects actually are.

I just picked Memphis arbitrarily, but I think they're as good a case as any--they've had to buy out multiple coaches over the last few years at many millions of dollars, and their football team probably made its biggest headlines of the 2012 when the Chronicle of Higher Education profiled a player who had trouble reading. It's difficult to see what Memphis is gaining in reputation by fielding an FBS team, and it's easy to imagine a President or AD picking up some credibility and publicity by refusing to play an unwinnable FBS game.

Importantly, since so much of FBS "revenue" at most schools is actually student fees, rather than ticket sales, cutting an FBS program to FCS levels could in theory simultaneously reduce student costs of attendance and reduce the athletic department's subsidy from the university. The idea that FBS drives revenue doesn't hold up as well once you dig into the numbers at schools like Kent State, where the school buys its own tickets just to maintain minimal FBS attendance figures. Those ticket sales are being counted as "revenue" by the athletic department.

[Babar]

I know this sounds far-fetched, but there is one alternative that would probably satisfy most in the Georgetown camp, including the Jesuits and bean-counters.

Join the Ivy League.

Trade in GU's athletics overhead for even more academic prestige. Use McDonough for BB (it is larger than at least two or three facilities in the Ivy), add about 5,000 seats to the Multi-Purpose facility, and voila! you are all set.

I mean, yeah, but could Georgetown's squash team handle our level of competition? I think we all know the answer to that.

[Babar]

More seriously, there are about a dozen reasons why it could never happen, but were it to happen: we might get a conference basketball tourney, and occasionally a second NCAA bid; and we might have enough incentive to go to an 11-game football season. So that would be nice.

[MplsBison]

I know this sounds far-fetched, but there is one alternative that would probably satisfy most in the Georgetown camp, including the Jesuits and bean-counters.

Join the Ivy League.

Trade in GU's athletics overhead for even more academic prestige. Use McDonough for BB (it is larger than at least two or three facilities in the Ivy), add about 5,000 seats to the Multi-Purpose facility, and voila! you are all set.

Ha! If that option were on the table I imagine they would've taken it years ago.

[MplsBison]

This is kind of an unfalsifiable premise--if athletic directors and university presidents aren't willing to move down because of their fear of effects on reputation, then we don't know what the effects actually are.

I just picked Memphis arbitrarily, but I think they're as good a case as any--they've had to buy out multiple coaches over the last few years at many millions of dollars, and their football team probably made its biggest headlines of the 2012 when the Chronicle of Higher Education profiled a player who had trouble reading. It's difficult to see what Memphis is gaining in reputation by fielding an FBS team, and it's easy to imagine a President or AD picking up some credibility and publicity by refusing to play an unwinnable FBS game.

Importantly, since so much of FBS "revenue" at most schools is actually student fees, rather than ticket sales, cutting an FBS program to FCS levels could in theory simultaneously reduce student costs of attendance and reduce the athletic department's subsidy from the university. The idea that FBS drives revenue doesn't hold up as well once you dig into the numbers at schools like Kent State, where the school buys its own tickets just to maintain minimal FBS attendance figures. Those ticket sales are being counted as "revenue" by the athletic department.

Right, just like if you never re-use that needle you'll never find out if you contract AIDS or not. A bit harsh of a comparison, sure. But that's really about how any FBS athletic director who wants to keep football views a move down to FCS. Maybe if there was a case actually showing it worked they would consider it ... but don't ask a single one of them to be that initial case.

It would be seen as an MLB team moving down to triple A. It makes sense in theory, but not in reality.


So take Memphis. Dig into the details and show how they'd make money in FCS. You can use any definition you want for "revenue" as long as it's reasonable and consistently applied in your analysis between the FBS and FCS scenarios. At the end of the day, a Memphis football brand in FCS is many times less valuable to advertisers than the FBS brand (for whatever that's worth). I don't see why that's a hard concept to grasp.

I know there is a contingent (to which you apparently belong) who love to parrot the idea that FBS money is a wash due to things like having to buy tickets to bowl games and things like that. But if you want to throw out statements like "doesn't hold up as well once you dig into the numbers" then you had better point that gun right back at yourself and dig into the numbers for FCS.

Where is the money coming from that's going to take a program in the red at FBS into the green at FCS? Ain't there.

[Go Green]

Ha! If that option were on the table I imagine they would've taken it years ago.

Not sure they would have taken it in the 1980s when they were a true national power in hoops...

But as others have said, there's a bunch of reasons why it won't happen. Among many other reasons, Georgetown would need another school to join the Ivy as a travel partner for sports like hoops and baseball. William & Mary, anyone?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It would be seen as an MLB team moving down to triple A. It makes sense in theory, but not in reality.

There's little doubt that it would be way easier for schools like Memphis to balance the books if they didn't have to spend $2 million per year more for their head coach, $2 million more per year in scholarships, $4 million per year in seat buyback programs, and plenty of other costs. Taking a quote from President Obama, it's math.

The trouble is that the ADs can't make that sensible decision because too many people in athletics tie their sexual performance to whether their school is FBS or not. Some schools certainly have a national mandate, like Army, Navy or the Air Force, where you can understand that regular-season games are about a lot more than just a game. But Memphis? Northern Illinois?

[Babar]

So take Memphis. Dig into the details and show how they'd make money in FCS. You can use any definition you want for "revenue" as long as it's reasonable and consistently applied in your analysis between the FBS and FCS scenarios. At the end of the day, a Memphis football brand in FCS is many times less valuable to advertisers than the FBS brand (for whatever that's worth). I don't see why that's a hard concept to grasp.

I know there is a contingent (to which you apparently belong) who love to parrot the idea that FBS money is a wash due to things like having to buy tickets to bowl games and things like that. But if you want to throw out statements like "doesn't hold up as well once you dig into the numbers" then you had better point that gun right back at yourself and dig into the numbers for FCS.

Oh, boy, am I not willing to be Memphis's forensic accountant. Like I say above, I'm agnostic on this question, because of the lack of good data. There's a lack of good data because athletic departments deliberately obscure their situations. But I do think you're focused on the wrong part of the P-L statement. The issue isn't profitability, it's the size of the loss. Only two dozen programs in America claim to be profitable, and nearly all of them reinvest 99 cents on the dollar, so really nobody's making money on football. Profitable football is a self-licking ice cream cone.

Maybe there aren't any programs--not one-- that could turn a profit by dropping to FCS, but you seem to be assuming there's no value in reducing losses, which have to be subsidized by the university. The value in conserving scarce dollars in the general fund seems obvious to me.

[DFW HOYA]

There's little doubt that it would be way easier for schools like Memphis to balance the books if they didn't have to spend $2 million per year more for their head coach, $2 million more per year in scholarships, $4 million per year in seat buyback programs, and plenty of other costs. Taking a quote from President Obama, it's math.

But unfortunately if attendance drops off the chart at the Liberty Bowl playing Middle Tennessee and SE Missouri, if FedEx Forum is drawing 5,000 a game instead of 20,000, and the corporate donors that float UM athletics go elsewhere, it's a self-inflicted wound to the school. What they would lose in expense will be compounded what they lose in revenue, and ultimately in enrollment, which is a different set of numbers than faced by private schools.

[Babar]

But unfortunately if attendance drops off the chart at the Liberty Bowl playing Middle Tennessee and SE Missouri, if FedEx Forum is drawing 5,000 a game instead of 20,000, and the corporate donors that float UM athletics go elsewhere, it's a self-inflicted wound to the school. What they would lose in expense will be compounded what they lose in revenue, and ultimately in enrollment, which is a different set of numbers than faced by private schools.

The first part of this, about sponsorship revenue crashing, I maybe buy, though I have a hard time imagining Memphis basketball not picking up some of that inventory. But by itself, sponsorship revenue's irrelevat to the larger university, because it all goes into the AD. And ithe enrollment thing's not clear to me at all. Memphis is a basketball school, and the students who aren't picking it for price or proximity probably aren't picking it for the football team.

[iBOsbu]

Big East plans to add one more member to have 12 total members. I am guess it would be coming from C-USA (Rice?) or MAC (Umass, n.illinois?). That would open up an opportunity for JMU to move to FBS and CAA move down to 10 members. Does CAA add more FB members or stay at 10 then?

[MplsBison]

Big East plans to add one more member to have 12 total members. I am guess it would be coming from C-USA (Rice?) or MAC (Umass, n.illinois?). That would open up an opportunity for JMU to move to FBS and CAA move down to 10 members. Does CAA add more FB members or stay at 10 then?

The Big East will have 10 football members for the 2014 season, as it stands today.

I think it's cute that they're still planning on Navy joining in 2015. That ain't happening. If Navy wouldn't join the CUSA, then they have no reason to join this conf.


I doubt Rice would be added because they already have Houston joining, which is literally right next to Rice. Tulsa, on the other hand, would make sense as a travel partner for SMU and then Houston could be a travel partner for Tulane.

Once Navy announces they aren't joining the football conf, they'll look to add one more for either the 2014 or 2015 football season (depending how soon they announce).

I guess it also depends on if schools like UConn, Temple, Cincy and USF are still in the conference at that point. The Big East could go a number of different ways depending on who's left.

[MplsBison]

There is no option forward that will be comparable to what Gtown has had in recent seasons (or even this season).

Neither the CYO or the CUSA 2.0 gets you what you just had. But you MUST recognize that one of them will get you more money than the other.


So do it. I implore you: acknowledge that going with the Catholic schools is "less bad" than going with the 2nd rate public schools in their respective states in the CUSA 2.0.

DFW --- ACKNOWLEDGE IT!!


Or else, never again post your whiny garbage about Gtown going bankrupt.

[MplsBison]

There's little doubt that it would be way easier for schools like Memphis to balance the books if they didn't have to spend $2 million per year more for their head coach, $2 million more per year in scholarships, $4 million per year in seat buyback programs, and plenty of other costs. Taking a quote from President Obama, it's math.

The trouble is that the ADs can't make that sensible decision because too many people in athletics tie their sexual performance to whether their school is FBS or not. Some schools certainly have a national mandate, like Army, Navy or the Air Force, where you can understand that regular-season games are about a lot more than just a game. But Memphis? Northern Illinois?

Put your money where you mouth is.

Dig in and show the true numbers. Otherwise, everything you just said is made-up.


You don't get to just claim that.

[MplsBison]

Oh, boy, am I not willing to be Memphis's forensic accountant. Like I say above, I'm agnostic on this question, because of the lack of good data. There's a lack of good data because athletic departments deliberately obscure their situations. But I do think you're focused on the wrong part of the P-L statement. The issue isn't profitability, it's the size of the loss. Only two dozen programs in America claim to be profitable, and nearly all of them reinvest 99 cents on the dollar, so really nobody's making money on football. Profitable football is a self-licking ice cream cone.

Maybe there aren't any programs--not one-- that could turn a profit by dropping to FCS, but you seem to be assuming there's no value in reducing losses, which have to be subsidized by the university. The value in conserving scarce dollars in the general fund seems obvious to me.

Nope. You've just conceded the argument.

As I said - if money is what's important to you, then you don't have a football team. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of schools do just that.

If you want to be invested in football at the highest level, then you make that investment and you don't question it.


EVEN STILL -- all of that said, I CHALLENGE you to provide even a reasonable, plausible scenario where a bottom level FBS team now could drop down to a nationally competitive FCS level and still lose significantly less money!!

You are certainly allowed to guess and speculate, but you better be able to provide a solid argument for why you think those numbers are reasonable when I challenge them.


Take Idaho if you want, that's your best chance. I'll still win.

[Laker]

Big East plans to add one more member to have 12 total members. I am guess it would be coming from C-USA (Rice?) or MAC (Umass, n.illinois?). That would open up an opportunity for JMU to move to FBS and CAA move down to 10 members. Does CAA add more FB members or stay at 10 then?

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8889597/big-east-wants-add-12th-school-keep-name?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yep- they said that they want to add one more by the time that Navy comes in for 2015.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Big East plans to add one more member to have 12 total members. I am guess it would be coming from C-USA (Rice?) or MAC (Umass, n.illinois?). That would open up an opportunity for JMU to move to FBS and CAA move down to 10 members. Does CAA add more FB members or stay at 10 then?


http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8889597/big-east-wants-add-12th-school-keep-name?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yep- they said that they want to add one more by the time that Navy comes in for 2015.

Aresco is so cute if he thinks his conference is going to survive long enough to get to a 12th team. The biggest news item coming out of here is that he's going to fight for the Big East name despite the fact that only one founding member, UConn, will remain by 2014. That tells you how little leverage he has - the name and the expiring units are literally all he has left.

[HailSzczur]

Aresco is so cute if he thinks his conference is going to survive long enough to get to a 12th team. The biggest news item coming out of here is that he's going to fight for the Big East name despite the fact that only one founding member, UConn, will remain by 2014. That tells you how little leverage he has - the name and the expiring units are literally all he has left.

I don't understand why they're so hung up with the name. The Big East name is synonymous with basketball first and foremost. After basketball what's the next thing that might come to mind, crappy football? But lately the Big East name has been a bit of a joke, something laughed at by all the other conferences. To me it's almost like seeing the USSR, or the Ottoman Empire, or Prussia on a map. Like the BE they were all superpowers in their day, but have then since divided and taken on new names. Move on, things change, stop pretending they're the same.

[citdog]

Move on, things change, stop pretending they're the same.


It's not like they're the Big SOUTH or anything.

[danefan]

Big East plans to add one more member to have 12 total members. I am guess it would be coming from C-USA (Rice?) or MAC (Umass, n.illinois?). That would open up an opportunity for JMU to move to FBS and CAA move down to 10 members. Does CAA add more FB members or stay at 10 then?

Or add 2 more to get to 12.

[Laker]

I don't understand why they're so hung up with the name. The Big East name is synonymous with basketball first and foremost. After basketball what's the next thing that might come to mind, crappy football? But lately the Big East name has been a bit of a joke, something laughed at by all the other conferences. To me it's almost like seeing the USSR, or the Ottoman Empire, or Prussia on a map. Like the BE they were all superpowers in their day, but have then since divided and taken on new names. Move on, things change, stop pretending they're the same.

Weaving all three of those into this thread is worth rep points! xthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8889597/big-east-wants-add-12th-school-keep-name?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

Yep- they said that they want to add one more by the time that Navy comes in for 2015.

As I said, it's cute that they think Navy is still coming in 2015. Right. Just like Boise and SDSU were still going to join the conf.

[Babar]

Nope. You've just conceded the argument.


You're rude. Did you miss the two places where I said I was agnostic on this question?



As I said - if money is what's important to you, then you don't have a football team. Nothing wrong with that, plenty of schools do just that.

If you want to be invested in football at the highest level, then you make that investment and you don't question it.


This makes absolutely no sense. This is like saying that you either walk every where or you buy a Lotus. The fact that you're willing to pay a price for something doesn't mean you're willing to pay any price for that thing.



EVEN STILL -- all of that said, I CHALLENGE you to provide even a reasonable, plausible scenario where a bottom level FBS team now could drop down to a nationally competitive FCS level and still lose significantly less money!!

You are certainly allowed to guess and speculate, but you better be able to provide a solid argument for why you think those numbers are reasonable when I challenge them.


Take Idaho if you want, that's your best chance. I'll still win.

I really should know better than to get involved in this sort of thing. But, you know, whatever, challenge accepted, man. Sometimes you've just got to cross that bridge and feed that troll.

I choose Eastern Michigan.

The NCAA says Eastern Michigan averaged 4,267 in attendance across its 6 home games in 2011. Season ticket prices at Eastern Michigan are $48--so if everybody paid that price (not everybody did--people affiliated with the school pay less, students pay nothing, and some people presumably pay a little more to sit in the press box), EMU made a grand total of $205,000 in football ticket sales. But maybe everybody paid the extra twelve dollars for a chairback! So we'll be extremely generous and say EMU made $256,000 in football ticket sales. Annarbor.com says they made about $2,500 in concessions, which seems low, so we'll bump it up an order of magnitude and say they made $25,000 on Pepsi and hot dogs.

By the way, EMU has a Pepsi contract that guarantees Pepsi beverage exclusivity in exchange for $150,000. Significantly, they managed to get to this very high attendance number of 4,267 by getting Pepsi to buy tickets at $3 a pop out of that $150K payment. So, those ticket numbers actually already have some of that corporate sponsorship money built in! But we don't mind double-counting it. $150K from Pepsi.

If you go to the EMU website, you'll see the following badges indicating other corporate sponsors:

Aubree's Pizzeria and Grill
Kelly Klever's Massage
MetroPCS Wireless for All
Buffalo Wild Wings
Adidas
Carson's Bistro
Lakeshore Apartments
Miles of Golf
Comfort Suites
Fairfield Inn
Underground Printing
United Way
Meijer
Real Co. Seafood
Tower Inn Cafe
Holiday Inn
CU Drive
Blue Cross/Blue Shield
Gratzi Italian Restaurant
Skydive Tecumseh
Palio Rustic Italian Cuisine
Farm Bureau Insurance
The Chop House
Tower Inn Cafe
Pak Mode Media and Marketing
Standard Printing
Cueter Jeep/Dodge/Chrysler
Qdoba
Beal Properties
Domino Pizza

The EMU corporate partnership program appears to be managed by the aftorementioned Pak Mode Media and Marketing (unclear whether they paid for their badge on the site or earned it through labor, but we'll assume they paid.) Here's Pak Mode's brochure detailing available corporate partnership packages: http://pakmode.com/index.php/sports/corporate-sponsorships/

You'll notice that the most expensive listed package is $6,000 per year. Let's assume every corporate sponsor above has paid for the full $6K package, and that I've actually missed a quarter of their corporate sponsors, who maybe don't like website badges: so if they have forty sponsors at $6K per, they're hauling in a cool $240,000 in advertising dollars!

The MAC's last TV deal paid out about $100K to every member. Their last BCS deal paid out about $200K to every member. And EMU got two guarantee games in 2011, against Purdue and Michigan State. I'm not sure the guarantee numbers are easily available, so let's say they got $800K total for taking two losses.

We could have fast-forwarded past all this and just gone straight to the punchline: this year's EMU athletic revenues were, according to annarbor.com, 1.87 million. (http://www.annarbor.com/news/eastern-michigan-university-athletics-slightly-reduces-reliance-on-tuition-dollars-and-state-funds/)EMU athletic expenses are, according to the same source, 10.54 million. (http://www.annarbor.com/news/eastern-michigan-university-athletics-slightly-reduces-reliance-on-tuition-dollars-and-state-funds/) Almost 85% of EMU's athletic budget is paid for by students and taxpayers.

The reason I included the line items above is so that we can see what we lose if EMU goes to FCS. EMU loses the MAC TV deal and the BCS money (-300K.) It loses most, but probably not all, of its corporate sponsors--let's say it goes from forty to ten at the same price level (-180,000.)

Does it lose the guarantee games? No, why would it? FCS schools get guarantee games all the time--if the B1G won't play them, somebody in the ACC or Big-Whatever will. And, honestly, they weren't making huge money from guarantee games anyway, as is apparent in their total revenue number.

Obviously, EMU loses ticket money, right? Well, maybe. EMU is already paying people to take tickets off their hands--not only are they giving them at a reduced price to Pepsi in lieu of Pepsi's sponsorship dollars, they've actually been, no joke, donating money above and beyond the ticket price to local schools in order to get people to accept their tickets. (http://www.emueagles.com/news/2010/9/21/TICKETS_0921104221.aspx) And free of the BCS attendance requirements, EMU wouldn't have to do that. They could make money on tickets, rather than actually paying people to take them. Let's be reasonably generous and say that of the $256,000 in ticket revenues we posited, they go down to $131,000 (-125K). Let's say all the concessions we previously mentioned evaporate (-25K).

Wouldn't they lose the big Pepsi deal? Probably not, actually. Their concession numbers are hideously low. Pepsi's not paying for access to the concession stands--Pepsi's paying for access to campus, with all its students and cafeterias and vending machines.

We've subtracted a total of $630K from the athletic revenues. We haven't looked at the expense side yet. Is this program in better shape financially?

You bet. Cutting 22 full scholarships alone would free up $407K. But you can actually free up 44 full scholarships, because Title IX means that the football program has probably been costing it's own weight in scholarships all over again on the distaff side. That's $814K a year just in scholarships, which already offsets the revenue losses we've projected. Further:

Two of the top six earners at EMU are football coaches, together earning nearly $600K. It's reasonable that a move to FCS could save $300K total in coach salaries (across the whole staff, not just those two.) You're probably also releasing a couple coaches on the women's side--let's say that saves another $100K.

EMU's football recruiting budget is very large for a MAC school, at $378K. It has to be that large because EMU is extremely uncompetitive in FBS and has to recruit very broadly to find players who are willing to move to the school by Ann Arbor that's NOT U of M just to have a shot at FBS ball. Let's say we can reduce it by $200K.

EMU spends $200K/year marketing its sports programs. Let's say we can reduce that by $50K.

I have no idea how much travel costs would decline, but I know EMU would have to move fewer athletes, trainers, equipment managers, etc. Let's say EMU saves another $50K there.

We're just saved more than 1.5 million dollars. EMU has paid for all its lost revenue and added an additional $870K to the budget. But what about student fees? They're hugely subsidized by student fees, and students expect an FBS experience, by golly, and wouldn't they have to cut student fees if they went to FCS? Well, based on attendance numbers, I'm not so sure the students really expect that "FBS experience", but EMU could definitely afford to cut student fees. Let's say they cut the university subsidy by five percent, saving massive amounts of money for students and/or taxpayers. They could do that and still have money left.

I didn't use a calculator, or proof these numbers, so it's possible I added poorly somewhere. I'm happy to make a correction. I would be very surprised if I made a mistake big enough to change the conclusion, which is that EMU could save significant money by moving to FCS.

[DFW HOYA]

Lots of good numbers here, but you don't count the upside if EMU was able to turn things around, with numbers it would not get in I-AA.

If EMU were to build its attendance base to that of Central Michigan (16,036/game) or even Western Michigan (14,579), gate revenues nearly triple, which allows the price of tickets go up, the price of sponsorships go up, and become a much more sustainable business model.

[citdog]

I didn't use a calculator, or proof these numbers.


****ing show off! xlolx


mpls answer?
1. "No I didn't"
2. Declare Victory
3. More underpants

[Babar]

Lots of good numbers here, but you don't count the upside if EMU was able to turn things around, with numbers it would not get in I-AA.

If EMU were to build its attendance base to that of Central Michigan (16,036/game) or even Western Michigan (14,579), gate revenues nearly triple, which allows the price of tickets go up, the price of sponsorships go up, and become a much more sustainable business model.

This is a great point, but consider the setting in which EMU's particular vicious cycle of poor performance, low attendance, and low revenue takes place:

They're about 15 miles away from the University of Michigan. They're under financial pressure already, cutting significant amounts from the academic budget. The state of Michigan is one of a few states that's getting older and losing population. Obviously, it's also in terrible times economically. The midwest is producing less of the nation's elite football talent than in past decades. The MAC's good coaches get hired away before they can even lead their teams in bowl games.

Short of a Chris Petersen-type coach who for some reason wants to stay and build a program at Ypsilanti in spite of offers elsewhere, I don't see how they're ever going to be competitive. I don't think even a once-in-a-generation player, an Andrew Luck, or an Ndakumong Suh, would be at EMU long enough to change things.

But you've really distilled the rationale for FBS participation: the downside is greater, but at least there is an upside. EMU has no easy path to escaping its vicious cycle--if it rejects the downside risk by going to FCS, it's essentially locked itself into (smaller, but real) budget deficits without even the prospect of eventual sustainability. I think I disagree with EMU's current choice, but I sympathize with it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Babar is my new hero.

[nwFL Griz]

One of EMU's biggest problems is short-selling itself on the guarantee games. Most FBS schools getting guarantee games can command up to $1 million per game. Typically in the 800K range. The fact that they only made 1.87 million total is a terrible indictment of their AD. Now maybe they have given discounts to instate and B1G schools, but if they want to stay at FBS, they need to get every dollar out of those guarantee games that they can.

[Laker]

Big East, Catholic 7 trying to come to terms for 2014 split.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8931014/big-east-seven-catholic-schools-hope-split-summer-2014-source-says

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This timeline on the OBE7 breakup certainly does fit:

http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/2/10/3973352/did-fox-sports-create-the-catholic-7-big-east-split

Fox apparently approached these schools before the split actually happened.

Gee, when I said realignment was all about Fox three years ago, people laughed at me. xlolx

[HailSzczur]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/files/2013/02/bballreligion213b.jpg

[HailSzczur]

A well written piece on where we as Nova fans would like to see the C7 go
http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/2/12/3980486/new-teams-for-the-c7 (A Fan's Thought of C7 Expansion)

Option one, with UConn and Ciny

East 7 - UConn, Georgetown, Villanova, Temple, Seton Hall, St Johns, Providence (ranked in order, imho)

West 7 - Marquette, Xavier, Butler, Cincy, Dayton, St Louis, DePaul (ranked in order, imho)

Option two, without UConn and Cincy

East 5 - Georgetown, Villanova, Seton Hall, St Johns, Providence

West 5 - Marquette, Xavier, Butler, St Louis, DePaul

[DFW HOYA]

A well written piece on where we as Nova fans would like to see the C7 go
http://www.vuhoops.com/2013/2/12/3980486/new-teams-for-the-c7 (A Fan's Thought of C7 Expansion)

Option one, with UConn and Ciny


Option two, without UConn and Cincy

Is there an Option Three?

Keep the two UC's, leave the bottom feeders to the NIT League and sell a Cinc/Conn/Gtown/Nova package to the ACC once the southern flank of Clemson, GTech, Miami, and Florida State leave for the Big 12.

[HailSzczur]

Is there an Option Three?

Keep the two UC's, leave the bottom feeders to the NIT League and sell a Cinc/Conn/Gtown/Nova package to the ACC once the southern flank of Clemson, GTech, Miami, and Florida State leave for the Big 12.

I'll take that in a heartbeat. Hall, DePaul, and PC are nothing but dead weight and bring nothing to the conference. And St. John's still needs to prove to me it's a consistently decent/good team again.

[HailSzczur]

Just saw this picture from the Pitt game a month ago. Those Georgetown kids are really on their game between this and the C7 tifo. Bravo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/files/2013/01/traitors113a.jpg

[walliver]

Just saw this picture from the Pitt game a month ago. Those Georgetown kids are really on their game between this and the C7 tifo. Bravo
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/dc-sports-bog/files/2013/01/traitors113a.jpg

Big sign. Lots of empty seats.

[Babar]

Is there an Option Three?

Keep the two UC's, leave the bottom feeders to the NIT League and sell a Cinc/Conn/Gtown/Nova package to the ACC once the southern flank of Clemson, GTech, Miami, and Florida State leave for the Big 12.

If the Big 12 grabs those four, the ACC is on its last legs, with the B1G taking Carolina and/or Virginia schools. You'd be joining a conference of Wake Forest, BC, and Duke. Which I guess would still be a legit basketball conference.

[iBOsbu]

America East is going to announce the addition of UMass Lowell this week. I wish AE added Bryant, but I guess they need to find a place for their football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

America East is going to announce the addition of UMass Lowell this week. I wish AE added Bryant, but I guess they need to find a place for their football.

ANYBODY but NJIT. xlolx

[Dane96]

I am ready to vomit. Lowell offers nothing but headaches.

"CAA/PL, this is UALBANY...would you consider us..."

[ccd494]

I am ready to vomit. Lowell offers nothing but headaches.

"CAA/PL, this is UALBANY...would you consider us..."

I don't understand why. They've had athletic success at D-2. Despite your protestations, it is a half decent academic school with a good engineering department. The Tsongas Center is a terrific facility. They've shown they can compete in Division I, as UML hockey is doing fine. They have a baseball team, something the conference desperately needed.

It was always going to be difficult to convince any school with a football team to join, especially after the NEC refused to admit Monmouth as an affiliate. That likely eliminated Bryant and CCSU as options. So, name a non-football school that would have been a better option. NJ Tech? Meh.

[iBOsbu]

I don't understand why. They've had athletic success at D-2. Despite your protestations, it is a half decent academic school with a good engineering department. The Tsongas Center is a terrific facility. They've shown they can compete in Division I, as UML hockey is doing fine. They have a baseball team, something the conference desperately needed.
It was always going to be difficult to convince any school with a football team to join, especially after the NEC refused to admit Monmouth as an affiliate. That likely eliminated Bryant and CCSU as options. So, name a non-football school that would have been a better option. NJ Tech? Meh.

Great point! Their have a very nice baseball park. Easily the best in AE now.

[Dane96]

I don't understand why. They've had athletic success at D-2. Despite your protestations, it is a half decent academic school with a good engineering department. The Tsongas Center is a terrific facility. They've shown they can compete in Division I, as UML hockey is doing fine. They have a baseball team, something the conference desperately needed.

It was always going to be difficult to convince any school with a football team to join, especially after the NEC refused to admit Monmouth as an affiliate. That likely eliminated Bryant and CCSU as options. So, name a non-football school that would have been a better option. NJ Tech? Meh.

Simply put: I PLAYED AGAINST THE SCHOOL AS A DII ATHLETE. If it is anything like it was...the AE will rue the day. Hopefully it has changed. And the engineering school is not anything other than the reactor school. The Nano school is barely off the ground. The patents they lead you to think are theirs are actually an engineering consortium b/w Lowell, Dartmouth, Boston and Worcester.

They graduate less than 30% of students in four years.

I do agree with your NEC-Monmouth issue. That...was icing on the cake.

[ccd494]

Simply put: I PLAYED AGAINST THE SCHOOL AS A DII ATHLETE. If it is anything like it was...the AE will rue the day. Hopefully it has changed. And the engineering school is not anything other than the reactor school. The Nano school is barely off the ground. The patents they lead you to think are theirs are actually an engineering consortium b/w Lowell, Dartmouth, Boston and Worcester.

They graduate less than 30% of students in four years.

I do agree with your NEC-Monmouth issue. That...was icing on the cake.

I think it has improved. The school definitely took a step back when it was absorbed by the UMass system- it became the black sheep and they even at one point tried to eliminate athletics because it threatened UMass or something. Meehan's a sleazeball, but he's UML's sleazeball and he's got things looking up. It's not a state flagship like UM, UNH, UVM, or whatever the SUNYs are (SUNY is certainly its own animal), but it's also not Grand Canyon or whoever the hell the WAC added.

[Dane96]

True

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is just too funny not to share:

http://t.co/I7Qfj2qh

Mike Aresco, not to mention any fan of UConn football, has to be frightened as hell right now.

[citdog]

This is just too funny not to share:

http://t.co/I7Qfj2qh

Mike Aresco, not to mention any fan of UConn football, has to be frightened as hell right now.


Just ANOTHER ONO trying to break up a good group.

[ccd494]

Just ANOTHER ONO trying to break up a good group.

I can't believe those long haired hippies would have been allowed within 30 miles of the South Carolina border.

[citdog]

I can't believe those long haired hippies would have been allowed within 30 miles of the South Carolina border.


If that were the case the college of Charleston could not exist. With all the long hair and beards over there it looks like a reunion of Kirby Smith's Trans-Mississippi Army.

[superman7515]

Jeff Erman from Inside Maryland Sports is reporting that UNC has an offer from the Big 10, Virginia is expected to join, and Georgia Tech is still in the mix.

North Carolina Has Big 10 Offer, Virginia On Deck (http://www.landgrantholyland.com/2013/2/19/4005512/report-north-carolina-has-big-ten-offer-virginia)


One of the leaders at being both first and right in the last round of Big Ten expansion is reporting that the University of North Carolina has an offer on the table to join the league. Where it goes from there is anyone's guess, but it appears that Virginia is also a chip (as long speculated) on the table possibly get in on the action as well.

Reports began leaking out last month that Virginia was next in the pecking order to join the Big Ten, but mostly originated from sources without the track record of Inside Maryland. There has also long been second guessing about the validity of a potential North Carolina offer, particularly in lieu of the lingering academic scandal still attached to the school's football and basketball programs, and the school's influence within the ACC. If recruiting college athletes is considered to be the silly season, recruiting colleges (particularly in lieu of lingering legislation still complicating matters) takes matters to a whole other level.

Now that there appears to be some actual hard evidence that North Carolina may be the next domino to fall, the question becomes what happens after that. Virginia would seem like some redundancy given the league's investment in Maryland (which potentially could cost in upwards of $50 million dollars), but the Norfolk-Portsmouth-Newport News and Richmond-Petersburg TV markets combine to form something worth noting. It would also all but seal the Big Ten Network's second tier negotiating prowess in the vaunted Washington DC market.

[Laker]

As a football fan I think that overexpansion, just like ancient Rome did, will kill college football. But since it is happening and I can't stop it, I'd rather have UVA and UNC instead of GA Tech. I suppose that all of this depends on Maryland's case on the exit fee.

Back in the days of regionalism I wanted Notre Dame to join the Big Ten. But now they can just sit out by themselves like the snotty girl who turned guys down for the prom but then ended up with a brand new dress and no one to take her.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Latest rumors are settling in with the OBE7 and who else they're targeting:


Nothing is close to being official–the final details of the divorce with the Big East have yet to be worked out–but a tentative plan of attack by members of the Catholic 7–Marquette, Seton Hall, Georgetown, DePaul, Villanova, Providence and St. John’s– is starting to take shape.

Those moves will start to speed up once the Big East decides its television status with either ESPN or NBC as the prime rights holder. ESPN on Thursday “matched” the NBC offer of a week ago.

The issue now being discussed by Big East officials is what constitutes “matching”. While that was happening, the Catholic schools were also making plans.

According to sources familiar with the talks now being held among the Catholic 7, the group will initially focus on a 10 team conference, which would mean invitations to Butler and Xavier of the Atlantic 10. An internal tug of war over the 10th team is being waged with Marquette leading a charge to include Creighton, while Georgetown and the Eastern Catholic schools are focusing on Richmond of the Atlantic 10.

Richmond is almost a pure media market play, if not a nice additional "f-u" to the A-10, who suddenly see any potential Richmond/VCU synergy go up in smoke (not to mention Butler and Xavier). Creighton is great for hoops strength but stretches the OBE7 into Nebraska.

You wonder if either strategy is looking down the road, too, at a 12-team conference.

12 teams seems to favor:

Marquette/DePaul/Butler/Xavier/Creighton/Cincy
GTown/Seton Hall/Providence/St. John's/Villanova/UConn

10 teams seems to favor:

Marquette/DePaul/Butler/Xavier/Richmond
GTown/Seton Hall/Providence/St. John's/Villanova

i.e. everyone plays each other

[bostonspider]

I think the UConn and Cincy ship has sailed. Unless they were willing to sign a GOR, I cannot imagine the C7 being interested in bringing them in again, knowing they would jump ship at the first opportunity. In the end I think it will end up with 12 schools:

C7 + Xavier, Butler, Creighton, SLU and Richmond. Not sure how you see them as nothing but a medi market play, UR was in sweet sixteen in 2011, and has consistently made the tourney every 3-5 years or so since the 1980's. (9 trips in 30 years). Richmond also more closely fits institutionally with Georgetown and Villanova than jsut about any of the candidates.

[Sandlapper Spike]

UConn and Cincinnati aren't joining that league unless they de-emphasize their football programs, in my opinion.

[Go...gate]

If that were the case the college of Charleston could not exist. With all the long hair and beards over there it looks like a reunion of Kirby Smith's Trans-Mississippi Army.

LOL!!!

[Go...gate]

Why is Saint Joseph's (PA) not in that Catholic league? That is a fine academic school with a great BB tradition.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Why is Saint Joseph's (PA) not in that Catholic league? That is a fine academic school with a great BB tradition.

My guess is they don't need another Philadelphia school, with Villanova already in that TV market. Also, Villanova probably wouldn't want to share the market with St. Joe's anyway.

[DFW HOYA]

Why is Saint Joseph's (PA) not in that Catholic league? That is a fine academic school with a great BB tradition.

Maybe they can replace Georgetown in the CYO League.

[HailSzczur]

Why is Saint Joseph's (PA) not in that Catholic league? That is a fine academic school with a great BB tradition.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Fine basketball tradition you make me laugh.

1. We would block the move 100%
2. All ready have the Philly market with us. Or at least what ever portion of the Philly market SJU(PA) holds is nothing more than we have.
3. If we let anyone from the city of Philadelphia in it would be Temple, and eve that's a very very hard pitch to make
4. Programs not exactly going through the best of times right now. Very very loud cries to fire Phil Martelli as well as the AD....great for conference stability and growth
5. League is about scrapping money together $$$. Georgetown plays in a 20k arena. Nova in a 6.5k on campus/20k off. Seton Hall 19k. DePaul 18k. Marquette 19k. What does St. Joes play in? 4k. Not exactly raking in money at the door.

I could keep going, but I might stop being objective and start to get personal :D

[Sandlapper Spike]

Re: reason 5, I've read that Richmond is a serious candidate for the C7, and I believe UR is downsizing its arena to under 8K. Butler is also reducing the size of Hinkle.

Reasons 1 and 2 are more than enough, though.

[Go...gate]

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. Fine basketball tradition you make me laugh.

1. We would block the move 100%
2. All ready have the Philly market with us. Or at least what ever portion of the Philly market SJU(PA) holds is nothing more than we have.
3. If we let anyone from the city of Philadelphia in it would be Temple, and eve that's a very very hard pitch to make
4. Programs not exactly going through the best of times right now. Very very loud cries to fire Phil Martelli as well as the AD....great for conference stability and growth
5. League is about scrapping money together $$$. Georgetown plays in a 20k arena. Nova in a 6.5k on campus/20k off. Seton Hall 19k. DePaul 18k. Marquette 19k. What does St. Joes play in? 4k. Not exactly raking in money at the door.

I could keep going, but I might stop being objective and start to get personal :D

I don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember St. Joe's as a very strong program They made the Elite Eight in 2004, were very strong in the 1960's, and had some strong teams in the 1980's and 1990's.

Also, St. Joseph's could play home games at the Palestra, as Big Five teams have done for years.

[superman7515]

Well if St. Joes needs help turning the program around, I've got the guy for them...

http://binaryapi.ap.org/c159779f58c9402f92c18b4f018de112/320x.jpg http://media.hollyscoop.com/sites/hollyscoop.com/files/styles/main_pic/public/story/eddiemurphy.jpg

[NoCoDanny]

How do you downsize an arena exactly?

[dgtw]

How do you downsize an arena exactly?

I'm guessing you take out seats to put in luxury boxes for the big donors.

I agree with the poster who said schools with FBS football won't be joining. The football/basketball divide is what brought down the Big East.

[UAalum72]

How do you downsize an arena exactly?

You could take out bench seats and put in chairbacks; screen off an upper deck or put trash bags over the baseline seats to compress the fans into the remaining seats (especially in a hockey rink if the BB crowd doesn't fill the place.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

How do you downsize an arena exactly?

Tennessee, Notre Dame and New Mexico have recently downsized their arena's.

[superman7515]

How do you downsize an arena exactly?

Take one whole section of the arena (look at the back)...

http://tevebaugh.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/BCC-1.jpg


And block it off...

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-mQHkTZqFpDU/TxMF1p-EocI/AAAAAAAADDA/RL-57DUdfi4/s1600/vcu5.jpg

[Go Green]

I don't know about you, but I'm old enough to remember St. Joe's as a very strong program They made the Elite Eight in 2004, were very strong in the 1960's, and had some strong teams in the 1980's and 1990's.

They're destroying GW right now.

[hebmskebm]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/9000502/catholic-7-schools-keep-big-east-name-new-league-next-season-according-sources

Catholic 7 to retain Big East name, add Butler and Xavier and possibly one more in 2013, Creighton, Dayton and Saint Louis in 2014.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Sounds like there may be some wrangling still to come over teams 10, 11, and 12, but that at least 9 teams are a go for next season.

[HailSzczur]

Glad we're keeping the Big East name....I still write 2012 by mistake.

Excited to add Butler and Xavier next year, as well as Creighton and SLU the year after. Dayton....not so much. My vote is for VCU as the 12th team, that is unless we can goad UConn into parking their football in the MAC and write a huge exit fee into the agreement.

[HailSzczur]

Guess this means it's time to change my avatar.....

[Sandlapper Spike]

Glad we're keeping the Big East name....I still write 2012 by mistake.

Excited to add Butler and Xavier next year, as well as Creighton and SLU the year after. Dayton....not so much. My vote is for VCU as the 12th team, that is unless we can goad UConn into parking their football in the MAC and write a huge exit fee into the agreement.

My guess is that VCU is a tough sell for a majority of the school presidents.

[HailSzczur]

My guess is that VCU is a tough sell for a majority of the school presidents.

With this bunch I think that getting a consensus might be tough.... Reportedly the only president who wanted to take an active role was Georgetown's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

With this bunch I think that getting a consensus might be tough.... Reportedly the only president who wanted to take an active role was Georgetown's.

I think Georgetown and the other Eastern schools of the New Big East are pushing hard for Richmond as School 12 instead of VCU.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I think Georgetown and the other Eastern schools of the New Big East are pushing hard for Richmond as School 12 instead of VCU.

Most of the reports suggest that the adds are going to be Xavier, Butler, Creighton, St. Louis, and Dayton. I think Richmond is competing (or losing out) with Creighton and/or Dayton.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Two more things to think about.

1) What if Notre Dame rejoined this new conference? They make a boatload more sense in this religious, BBall-centric league than as a hoops outpost in a declining ACC. I don't know if there are too many bad feelings from realignment to make this happen, but with the New Big East looking at a 12th team... it must be awful tempting, right?

Let's put it this way: which is better, Creighton, or ND?

2) Of the New Big East:

DePaul - no FB (had team in 1930s)
Georgetown - FCS Patriot League FB
Marquette - club FB
Providence - no FB (think they had team in 1930s)
St. John's - no FB (disbanded in 2001)
Seton Hall - no FB (disbanded in 1990s?)
Villanova - FCS CAA FB
Xavier - club FB
Butler - FCS Pioneer League FB

And:

Richmond - FCS CAA FB
Creighton - no FB (disbanded in 1990s I believe)
Saint Louis - no FB
VCU - no FB (had football in early 50s)
Dayton - FCS Pioneer League FB
Valparaiso - FCS Pioneer League FB

In theory - I'm not saying this would happen, mind you - you could make a non-scholarship conference with some combination of Marquette, Xavier, Butler, and (should they join) Dayton. Marquette and Xavier would have to upgrade their club teams to non-scholarship teams, but it could be done. If the New Big East got in the business of administering a non-scholarship FCS conference, you'd have to believe that Drake and Valpo would join in football only in a heartbeat. That's a six-team midwestern non-scholarship conference.

This conference could also consider Georgetown (should they wish to go back to non-scholarship status), or, a lot less likely, Villanova or Richmond. While far-flung for football, they would have a lot in common with the other schools institutionally, something that shouldn't be underestimated.

[CFBfan]

Two more things to think about.

1) What if Notre Dame rejoined this new conference? They make a boatload more sense in this religious, BBall-centric league than as a hoops outpost in a declining ACC. I don't know if there are too many bad feelings from realignment to make this happen, but with the New Big East looking at a 12th team... it must be awful tempting, right?

Let's put it this way: which is better, Creighton, or ND?

2) Of the New Big East:

DePaul - no FB (had team in 1930s)
Georgetown - FCS Patriot League FB
Marquette - club FB
Providence - no FB (think they had team in 1930s)
St. John's - no FB (disbanded in 2001)
Seton Hall - no FB (disbanded in 1990s?)
Villanova - FCS CAA FB
Xavier - club FB
Butler - FCS Pioneer League FB

And:

Richmond - FCS CAA FB
Creighton - no FB (disbanded in 1990s I believe)
Saint Louis - no FB
VCU - no FB (had football in early 50s)
Dayton - FCS Pioneer League FB
Valparaiso - FCS Pioneer League FB

In theory - I'm not saying this would happen, mind you - you could make a non-scholarship conference with some combination of Marquette, Xavier, Butler, and (should they join) Dayton. Marquette and Xavier would have to upgrade their club teams to non-scholarship teams, but it could be done. If the New Big East got in the business of administering a non-scholarship FCS conference, you'd have to believe that Drake and Valpo would join in football only in a heartbeat. That's a six-team midwestern non-scholarship conference.

This conference could also consider Georgetown (should they wish to go back to non-scholarship status), or, a lot less likely, Villanova or Richmond. While far-flung for football, they would have a lot in common with the other schools institutionally, something that shouldn't be underestimated.

LFN, you start out touting ND for this new alignment and then discuss a non-schol footbal league????????
also, Gtown is NON scholarship status now, they don't have to go back to it??

[Laker]

What if Notre Dame rejoined this new conference? They make a boatload more sense in this religious, BBall-centric league than as a hoops outpost in a declining ACC. I don't know if there are too many bad feelings from realignment to make this happen, but with the New Big East looking at a 12th team... it must be awful tempting, right?

Yes, it makes sense rivalry-wise, and if they want to stay as a football independent long term. But will ND admit that they made a mistake jumping to the ACC and come back so soon?

ND's great 2012 football season seemed to cement the Irish determination to stay independent. But in the long run- will they? I wonder if BYU is rethinking that path- they will not be the Notre Dame of the West.

I don't think that the Catholic 7 want anything to do with football, period. They would take ND in other sports in a heartbeat, I just don't think ND will take that path.

[Sandlapper Spike]

Two more things to think about.

1) What if Notre Dame rejoined this new conference? They make a boatload more sense in this religious, BBall-centric league than as a hoops outpost in a declining ACC. I don't know if there are too many bad feelings from realignment to make this happen, but with the New Big East looking at a 12th team... it must be awful tempting, right?


No. First, the ACC hoops component of its TV deal is likely going to make more money than the C7 (and then you have the football tie-in). Even if that were to wind up a wash, Notre Dame fits much better institutionally and (especially) from a varsity athletics standpoint with the ACC schools than with the C7 institutions, regardless of religious affiliation.

ND places a lot of emphasis on its "Olympic" sports, and those sports as a whole match up a lot better with the ACC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LFN, you start out touting ND for this new alignment and then discuss a non-schol footbal league????????
also, Gtown is NON scholarship status now, they don't have to go back to it??

Well, if the NBE was targeting Notre Dame that would be one thing, and if they're targeting Richmond it would be another thing, and if they're targeting Dayton it might be a third thing. I'm not saying this is any consideration at all with what the NBE is doing, but getting a school like Dayton at least opens up the possibility of a non-scholly football conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No. First, the ACC hoops component of its TV deal is likely going to make more money than the C7 (and then you have the football tie-in). Even if that were to wind up a wash, Notre Dame fits much better institutionally and (especially) from a varsity athletics standpoint with the ACC schools than with the C7 institutions, regardless of religious affiliation.

ND places a lot of emphasis on its "Olympic" sports, and those sports as a whole match up a lot better with the ACC.

Fair points all. Three things still stick out, though, to me.

First, the NBE is a much different entity than the BE that Notre Dame left the first time. They left a sprawling conference with 20 teams with every one questioning their linkage to everyone else (TCU with Providence, South Florida to DePaul, etc.) They'd be returning to a high-academic group of private schools, many CYO.

Second, they'd be able to keep their "special relationship" with NBC perpetually. They'd be able to negotiate with NBC as in their current deal without any members of their all-sports conference worrying about FBS football at all. Staying in the ACC puts pressure on scheduling Wake Forest and North Carolina home-and-home when they can be indy and keep the same, very lucrative money they have right now.

Finally, I have to believe that getting ND back would be sweet, sweet revenge for the NBE for all the trouble the ACC has caused the BE over the years. Critically it would seriously damage those home-and-homes with Wake Forest and North Carolina in football and possibly make the ACC more of a second-tier conference than they already are. If I'm the NBE and I see a chance of making this happen, why don't I take it?

[DFW HOYA]

First, the NBE is a much different entity than the BE that Notre Dame left the first time. They left a sprawling conference with 20 teams with every one questioning their linkage to everyone else (TCU with Providence, South Florida to DePaul, etc.) They'd be returning to a high-academic group of private schools, many CYO.

Outside of Georgetown and maybe Villanova, there are few "high academic" schools in this collection. The academics of the ACC are much stronger across the board, even the public schools. With Maryland leaving, only one ACC school (NC State) is outside the Top 105 in the US News survey.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Outside of Georgetown and maybe Villanova, there are few "high academic" schools in this collection. The academics of the ACC are much stronger across the board, even the public schools. With Maryland leaving, only one ACC school (NC State) is outside the Top 105 in the US News survey.

What if, as rumored, UNC heads to the Big 10, and is replaced by, take your pick, UConn or Cincinnati?

[Laker]

I keep hearing rumors for all of these conferences- but when is the dam going to break? Are teams and leagues waiting for the Maryland lawsuit? Someone said March 15 for the Catholic 7 official announcement but who really knows? Same thing with the FCS teams to FBS- just waiting for the dominoes to fall?

[DFW HOYA]

What if, as rumored, UNC heads to the Big 10, and is replaced by, take your pick, UConn or Cincinnati?

The ACC needs the Washington DC television/cable market. (Just sayin.)

[PAllen]

The ACC needs the Washington DC television/cable market. (Just sayin.)

Florida State Football - coming to a multisport facility near you. ;)

[DFW HOYA]

Florida State Football - coming to a multisport facility near you. ;)

No, not that, but if you could arrange a deal to move all other sports to the ACC and take only the basketball share of the ACC TV revenues available to other schools, I would walk, no, RUN to make that deal. Who knows, maybe some of that TV money could pay for football upgrades.

The DC cable market is the largest in the current ACC contract and that goes out the window when Maryland gets out of its lawsuit and joins the Big 10.

Because what group of schools below is going to sell more seats at a 20,500 seat Verizon Center?

A) Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, Butler, Creighton (Zzzzzzz....)
or
B) Duke, Virginia, Syracuse, Louisville, Pittsburgh

And why does Georgetown play in a 20,500 seat arena? Because Georgetown has no other choice. Its on campus gym is 60 years old, capacity cut in half from 4,000 to 2,000 for safety reasons, now obsolete to host games, and there are no plans for a replacement. The MSF will get done before a new gym is built...and that's saying something!

[bluehenbillk]

It sounds like whoever plays their tourney in MSG, and for now it sounds like the Catholic 7 (Big East moving forward), they will get a real short contract, say 2, maybe 3 years tops. Too much change on the horizon.

[Go Green]

And why does Georgetown play in a 20,500 seat arena? Because Georgetown has no other choice.

Have Maryland, GWU, and GMU told Georgetown that the Hoyas absolutely cannot rent their gyms?

Those may not be desireable choices, but they are choices. Penn lets other Philly schools play at the Palestra all the time...

[Sandlapper Spike]

Ooh, I would love to sit in on the negotiations for Georgetown renting time at the Comcast Center...

[HailSzczur]

No, not that, but if you could arrange a deal to move all other sports to the ACC and take only the basketball share of the ACC TV revenues available to other schools, I would walk, no, RUN to make that deal. Who knows, maybe some of that TV money could pay for football upgrades.

The DC cable market is the largest in the current ACC contract and that goes out the window when Maryland gets out of its lawsuit and joins the Big 10.

Because what group of schools below is going to sell more seats at a 20,500 seat Verizon Center?

A) Seton Hall, Providence, DePaul, Butler, Creighton (Zzzzzzz....)
or
B) Duke, Virginia, Syracuse, Louisville, Pittsburgh

And why does Georgetown play in a 20,500 seat arena? Because Georgetown has no other choice. Its on campus gym is 60 years old, capacity cut in half from 4,000 to 2,000 for safety reasons, now obsolete to host games, and there are no plans for a replacement. The MSF will get done before a new gym is built...and that's saying something!

I had been hoping, praying, suggesting, begging for Nova and Gtown to do this as a pair since Pitt and Cuse jumped ship. You couldn't ask for a better solution

[Go Green]

Ooh, I would love to sit in on the negotiations for Georgetown renting time at the Comcast Center...

They're probably the last of Georgetown's preferred options. :)

And if you want a game that you think will draw more than 2,000, but less than 4,500... there's always American's Bender Arena for the Hoyas.

[Laker]

Weren't we just talking about this? Notre Dame thinking about going to the Catholic 7. It would only be for a year but who knows what might happen.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9003784/notre-dame-athletic-director-jack-swarbrick-open-joining-catholic-7-league-one-season

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

They're probably the last of Georgetown's preferred options. :)

And if you want a game that you think will draw more than 2,000, but less than 4,500... there's always American's Bender Arena for the Hoyas.

Georgetown does not draw particularly well unless they're playing Syracuse, 'Nova or ND.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown does not draw particularly well unless they're playing Syracuse, 'Nova or ND.

False.

In 2012, Georgetown ranked 25th nationally in average attendance, 5th among all Div. I private schools. In 2013, Georgetown ranks 4th of 15 in the Big East in attendance, just behind Connecticut and ahead of Notre Dame, Seton Hall, Villanova, St. John's, Providence, etc.

Some attendance figures for opponents not mentioned above:

01/08/13 PITTSBURGH (13,011)
01/16/13 PROVIDENCE (9,210)
01/26/13 LOUISVILLE (17,474)
01/30/13 SETON HALL (7,567)
02/02/13 ST. JOHN'S (15,625)
02/20/13 DEPAUL (9,987)

This attendance may seem small to some but it's a 20,500 seat arena you're trying to fill--there are only a half-dozen arenas nationwide which are larger and the DC sports audience can also buy tickets to see the Wizards, Capitals, Terps, and five other local college teams on any given night. In Syracuse or State College, it's a one-team town.

Will attendance take a hit by trading in Syracuse and Pitt? Absolutely. But this isn't a Patriot League attendance base either, and 12,000 a game is remarkable given that only about 20% of its alumni are even in the Washington DC area.

Would that Georgetown could get some of these fans to make a visit during football season. Of course there would be no place to seat most of them...

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

DFW,

I should have said relative to capacity. Those empty seats make for a less than stellar
atmosphere several nights. Uconn faces the same issue at the XL Center.

Interesting tidbit. Temple has only sold out the 10k seat Liacouras Center 14 times since it opened in 1997.

[dgtw]

Weren't we just talking about this? Notre Dame thinking about going to the Catholic 7. It would only be for a year but who knows what might happen.

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9003784/notre-dame-athletic-director-jack-swarbrick-open-joining-catholic-7-league-one-season

With the ACC under attack, I'd give serious consideration to going to the Big East and stay an independent in football.

[Laker]

With the ACC under attack, I'd give serious consideration to going to the Big East and stay an independent in football.

They may be trying to do this to see if the ACC gets decimated by the BIG, the SEC and the Big XII

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It looks very much like there's a fight going in in regards to Notre Dame.

UND is amenable to competing in the OBE7 for "one year":

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9003784/notre-dame-athletic-director-jack-swarbrick-open-joining-catholic-7-league-one-season


"If the Catholic 7 is leaving and forming its own conference for next year, they could certainly call us to want to explore our options," Swarbrick said Friday. "And if they were interested in accommodating us, it would certainly be a viable option. We have a lot of respect for those schools and know them well."

...which clearly scares the ACC pantsless, meaning they are now suddenly amenable to having them come in early:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9022342/notre-dame-fighting-irish-join-acc-summer-school-negotiate-big-east-exit-according-sources


The ACC will allow Notre Dame to join the league this summer if the Fighting Irish can exit the Big East Conference, sources told ESPN.

Notre Dame intended to stay in the Big East through the 2013-14 season as long as the league's seven Catholic basketball schools remained. But those schools -- DePaul, Georgetown, Marquette, Providence, St. John's, Seton Hall and Villanova -- are expected to announce in the coming days they are leaving the Big East to begin their own league on July 1.

A lot of this is going to hinge on what future value Notre Dame puts on OBE7 basketball and ACC basketball. If North Carolina doesn't head to the Big 10, then I think it's clear heading to the ACC is the best value. But if North Carolina leaves... suddenly the OBE7 with their status in the Fox Sports 1 universe could be a lot more attractive. In either case they have the perks of that NBC football contract which gives them a flexibility few other schools enjoy.

[fc97]

If the ACC gets hit, would Duke, Wake and Boston College be Big East candidates then?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If the ACC gets hit, would Duke, Wake and Boston College be Big East candidates then?

Stop for a minute and think the earthquake that would be - breaking up the Duke and NC rivalry. As for BC, it's hard to picture them heading back to the OBE with all that bitterness that ensued when they left the first time.

[ccd494]

Stop for a minute and think the earthquake that would be - breaking up the Duke and NC rivalry. As for BC, it's hard to picture them heading back to the OBE with all that bitterness that ensued when they left the first time.

I can't believe the NC state legislature would let UNC go and leave Duke and Wake out to dry without there being threats of MASSIVE funding cuts. There are a plethora of Duke and Wake legislators (Wake especially, Duke grads tend to disperse more) that would never forgive UNC for that, and would remember it come budget season.

[ASUMountaineer]

I can't believe the NC state legislature would let UNC go and leave Duke and Wake out to dry without there being threats of MASSIVE funding cuts. There are a plethora of Duke and Wake legislators (Wake especially, Duke grads tend to disperse more) that would never forgive UNC for that, and would remember it come budget season.

Maybe, but both Wake and Duke are private schools and legislatures should not play with budget funds for private schools' athletics.

[Laker]

Maybe, but both Wake and Duke are private schools and legislatures should not play with budget funds for private schools' athletics.

Yah, that is what I thought. They are private schools so you wouldn't think that they would have that much pull.

Of course, in Minnesota the Gophers have so much pull in the legislature- but they are the flagship and the only D1 school in the state.

[DFW HOYA]

I can't believe the NC state legislature would let UNC go and leave Duke and Wake out to dry without there being threats of MASSIVE funding cuts.

That didn't stop Texas A&M from leaving Texas, Texas Tech, and the rest of the Big 12.

[Sandlapper Spike]

That's because A&M left by choice, had a place to go that was just as good/better, and Texas/Texas Tech were still in a BCS league.

I think the UNC-being-hamstrung-by-the-legislature thing, though, only really applies to NC State. If NC State gets a spot in the SEC, then UNC probably could move to the Big 10 without a lot of legislative interference.

[Go Green]

breaking up the Duke and NC rivalry.

If Oklahoma-Nebraska football can be broken up, anything can.

And nothing preventing them from continuing to schedule each other, like Utah-BYU.

[fc97]

I can't believe the NC state legislature would let UNC go and leave Duke and Wake out to dry without there being threats of MASSIVE funding cuts. There are a plethora of Duke and Wake legislators (Wake especially, Duke grads tend to disperse more) that would never forgive UNC for that, and would remember it come budget season.

the number of wake and duke grads is a drop in the bucket in the legislature. the only thing concerning the legislature would be nc state and unc. duke would be on all relevant unc schedules regardless, probably twice a year like normal. wake on the other hand would hurt quite a bit.

[DFW HOYA]

There are few if any rivalries that can withstand the pull of money and presumed fame, which is why Texas isn't playing Texas A&M, why the border war between Missouri and Kansas is in the rear view mirror, why Georgetown and Syracuse are being torn away from the best basketball rivalry in the East. If UNC gets a call from the Big 10, they go, which is why Carolina has been quietly lobbying to take Duke with them, or at least Virginia.

And your school could be next. If Lehigh got an invite from the CAA, they wouldn't necessarily be taking Lafayette with them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There are few if any rivalries that can withstand the pull of money and presumed fame, which is why Texas isn't playing Texas A&M, why the border war between Missouri and Kansas is in the rear view mirror, why Georgetown and Syracuse are being torn away from the best basketball rivalry in the East. If UNC gets a call from the Big 10, they go, which is why Carolina has been quietly lobbying to take Duke with them, or at least Virginia.

And your school could be next. If Lehigh got an invite from the CAA, they wouldn't necessarily be taking Lafayette with them.

The phrase "killing everything that is good about college sports" leaps to mind. Also, uprooting (in some cases) a hundred years of tradition for a cash grab, now. Ironically the "cash grab now" is wrecking the entire brand of college sports, but it might take decades for that to finally play itself out, and the zillionaires running the show don't much care.

[van]

There are few if any rivalries that can withstand the pull of money and presumed fame, which is why Texas isn't playing Texas A&M, why the border war between Missouri and Kansas is in the rear view mirror, why Georgetown and Syracuse are being torn away from the best basketball rivalry in the East. If UNC gets a call from the Big 10, they go, which is why Carolina has been quietly lobbying to take Duke with them, or at least Virginia.

And your school could be next. If Lehigh got an invite from the CAA, they wouldn't necessarily be taking Lafayette with them.

If Lehigh got an invite from CAA, doubt we would be going. And that is one rivalry that might stand the test of time, hate is a tough emotion to overcome.

[walliver]

I don't think Duke is particularly desirable to any larger conference. The Blue Devils have a perinneal winner in their basketball team, but the basketball money comes from March Madness not regular season games. Duke football hasn't been prominent in 30-40 years. I can't see the B1G, Big 12, or SEC going after Duke. It makes even less sense for Duke and UNC to go as a team. What marketing director would pick two teams from the Triangle?

Wake Forest is the odd man out. Is is a small private school, that based on its size, should be in the CAA or SoCon. I don't see a future for them in the new Big East, and suspect they will be in the ACC as long as there is an ACC.

UNC would probably like the academic prestige of being in the "Big Ten", but geographically that combination makes little sense.

FSU would love to leave the ACC and would be a natural fit for the SEC, but I don't see that happening. UF brings the entire Florida market (not just Gainesville) and FSU adds little. Widely rumored to join the B12, but just a year ago, the B12 was on its death's door with Oklahoma looking to the PAC. If the SEC could lure away OU, the B12 would replace the ACC on the death watch. Working in FSU's favor is that they voted against the ACC $50M buyout. In the case of UNC or NC State, they would have to argue in court against a buyout they actually supported.

[DFW HOYA]

If Lehigh got an invite from CAA, doubt we would be going. And that is one rivalry that might stand the test of time, hate is a tough emotion to overcome.

That's what Georgetown thought about Syracuse, too.

Less likely that Lehigh would leave, of course, but collge trustees think differently than fans and are under different pressures. The story of how Maryland's trustees were essentially strong-armed into accepting the Big 10 offer was illustrative.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That's what Georgetown thought about Syracuse, too.

Less likely that Lehigh would leave, of course, but collge trustees think differently than fans and are under different pressures. The story of how Maryland's trustees were essentially strong-armed into accepting the Big 10 offer was illustrative.

The story of Maryland would be comical if it weren't so serious. The former AD runs the place financially into the ground, meaning that the BOT had to accept a move to the B1G because it's the only way the athletic department could be sustained.

[fc97]

which is why i think wake would be primed for the big east. brings in another market, a large market at that (not just triad but the whole state overall). they are smallish (smaller than elon, campbell and mercer), they fit the monetary and geographic profile for the big east and are larger than providence.

[Laker]

I don't like the whole expansion game at all, but if the BIG is going to add two, I'd prefer UVA and UNC and not GA Tech. I'm not sure why Purdue and Illinois prefer GA Tech.

The whole thing is a mess.

[Go...gate]

There are few if any rivalries that can withstand the pull of money and presumed fame, which is why Texas isn't playing Texas A&M, why the border war between Missouri and Kansas is in the rear view mirror, why Georgetown and Syracuse are being torn away from the best basketball rivalry in the East. If UNC gets a call from the Big 10, they go, which is why Carolina has been quietly lobbying to take Duke with them, or at least Virginia.

And your school could be next. If Lehigh got an invite from the CAA, they wouldn't necessarily be taking Lafayette with them.

Respectfully, I seriously, seriously, seriously doubt this. Can't imagine LC and LU not doing things together, any more than H-Y-P in the Ivy League.

[Go Green]

any more than H-Y-P in the Ivy League.

H & Y will probably never be separated. But both of them could care less about P.

[Babar]

H & Y will probably never be separated. But both of them could care less about P.

"Neither could care less," or, if you insist on "both," "both of them couldn't care less."

And sure, it's a little true, but nobody's leaving the IL for dollars at all.

[fc97]

I don't like the whole expansion game at all, but if the BIG is going to add two, I'd prefer UVA and UNC and not GA Tech. I'm not sure why Purdue and Illinois prefer GA Tech.

The whole thing is a mess.

Atlanta > NC > VA

that's why. the atlanta market is huge compared to any nc markets or va markets not already represented by maryland.

[Go Green]

That's what Georgetown thought about Syracuse, too.

Today's Washington Post devoted nearly its entire Sports section to the history of the Georgetown-Syracuse rivalry.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/colleges/syracuse-vs-georgetown-the-oral-history/2013/03/06/91fa40b0-85e1-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394_story.html

[Go Green]

"Neither could care less," or, if you insist on "both," "both of them couldn't care less."

And sure, it's a little true, but nobody's leaving the IL for dollars at all.

:)

Princeton has always been the Air Force of the Ivy's "Big Three."

It's a shame that Dartmouth and Princeton don't put more effort into their own rivalry. There's tons of great hsitory there (at least in football), even if both teams have spent more time in the lower division in recent years. But for whatever reason, both D & P spend more energy trying to become "rivals" with H&Y than each other.

Oh well...

[Babar]

:)

Princeton has always been the Air Force of the Ivy's "Big Three."

It's a shame that Dartmouth and Princeton don't put more effort into their own rivalry. There's tons of great hsitory there (at least in football), even if both teams have spent more time in the lower division in recent years. But for whatever reason, both D & P spend more energy trying to become "rivals" with H&Y than each other.

I will say that Dartmouth and Princeton are probably more like each other in terms of culture than they are most of the other Ivies. If your rival is the opponent most like you, you'd think something strong would develop.

[CFBfan]

I will say that Dartmouth and Princeton are probably more like each other in terms of culture than they are most of the other Ivies. If your rival is the opponent most like you, you'd think something strong would develop.

geography would make princeton and upenn rivals and they do not have a common culture.....seems like an easier rivalry?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/9026064/catholic-7-reaches-agreement-leave-big-east-summer-sources-say


The seven schools will depart on June 30 and will begin their new league on July 1, sources said. They are expected to add Butler and Xavier and likely Creighton to have at least a 10-team basketball league for the 2013-14 season, according to sources.

I still don't think Creighton is going to be the 10th team.

[Go Green]

geography would make princeton and upenn rivals and they do not have a common culture.....seems like an easier rivalry?

It's a great rivalry in basketball. One of the best.

But football... there's just not much there. For whatever reason, Penn and Princeton have rarely been good at the same time in football.

And the times that they are... things have gotten unpleasant. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1137900/index.htm

[Pard4Life]

The new conference will be called the "America 12". I pretty much expected the yahoo writer to call it the 'Patriot League' because his headline was a "patriotic name."

[Babar]

It's a great rivalry in basketball. One of the best.

But football... there's just not much there. For whatever reason, Penn and Princeton have rarely been good at the same time in football.

And the times that they are... things have gotten unpleasant. http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1137900/index.htm

Ouch. Good reminder to bite my tongue every time I want to say something about Penn.

Yeah, if geography were the sole determinant, the basketball rivalry would carry over into football. Of course, if geography were the sole determinant, we'd still be playing Rutgers, and Lafayette and Lehigh would be every-year sorts of things.