Sun Belt Bowls

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Since fans of some FCS teams are eyeing the Sun Belt longingly, I thought it worth it to detail exactly what bowls the Sun Belt student-athletes will be attending.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2012/writers/stewart_mandel/12/04/bowl-rankings/index.html?eref=twitter_feed

The numbers detail Stuart Mandel's ranking of each bowl (out of 35).


21. Independence (Dec. 28): Louisiana-Monroe (8-4) vs. Ohio (8-4). September heroes Kolton Browning and Tyler Tettleton return to primetime ... er, 2 p.m. on a Friday. Warhawks fans should flock to their first-ever bowl game. "I'd rather be playing Louisiana Tech" T-shirts sold separately.

32. New Orleans (Dec. 22): Louisiana-Lafayette (8-4) vs. East Carolina (8-4). Louisiana-Lafayette's Brett Baer kicked a game-winning 50-yard field goal in this bowl last year. The game kicks off at noon, so set your DVR for around 3:28 p.m. just in case.

34. Little Caesars (Dec. 26): Western Kentucky (7-5) vs. Central Michigan (6-6). Put simply: These are the 81st and 120th-ranked teams in Jeff Sagarin's ratings.

Two games vs. middle-of-the-pack MAC teams, and a CUSA team, no BCS-level competition.

Payouts (2011 numbers):

Independence $1.1 million per school
New Orleans Bowl: $500,000 per school
Little Caesars Bowl: $600,000 per school

UL-Lafayette will likely make a tiny profit or break even on the game since they are so geographically close to New Orleans.

UL-Monroe will have to spend money to get to the Independence Bowl but have a chance to break even or squeak out a tiny profit since their payout is higher. It's pretty unclear, however, and ULM has had financial issues with their athletics program overall.

Western Kentucky will likely lose money since they are the visiting team and have to fly a large contingent up to Ford Field in Michigan.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'm sure this is exactly what they envisioned. Chills.

[Eagle11]

Whats your point?

How much is Lehigh making off of the playoffs this year?

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I don't think his point is the money, it's more that these bowls are nothing special. Staying in the FCS you have a chance to win a national championship, moving to the Sun Belt you have the chance to win a bowl game that doesn't receive much attention.

[superman7515]

In their defense then, to the majority of America a win in any FBS bowl is worth more than a win in the FCS title game.

[asumike83]

Left off that list is conference champion Arkansas State, who will be playing #25 Kent State at 9PM on Sunday, January 6.

[AppAlum2003]

Left off that list is conference champion Arkansas State, who will be playing #25 Kent State at 9PM on Sunday, January 6.

Conveniently.

LFN is a joke.

[GATA_Eagles]

In their defense then, to the majority of America a win in any FBS bowl is worth more than a win in the FCS title game.

Essentially this. Our 6 national championships have value to our fans but we can't wave them in the face of FBS teams. They are a part of our history so we can cherish them, but if we move up thats what they will be -- history. With a playoff format coming to the FBS, the highest ranked non-AQ could get a spot at the table. That's what FCS has to look to now. The defacto BCS champion will be selected by a playoff format. How much will that devalue the FCS championship?

[mcveyrl]

I would also say this from a fan base standpoint: Our trip to DC felt a lot like a bowl game. We got there a couple of days early and saw sites, fans of both teams were walking around enjoying the city, and both teams were represented well at the game. That game would obviously be ranked lower than those bowl games, but it really made me rethink my position on the possibility of going FBS and going to "lower tier" bowls. Not saying I'm all for FBS now, but it definitely gave me a different perspective.

[lionsrking2]

I don't think his point is the money, it's more that these bowls are nothing special. Staying in the FCS you have a chance to win a national championship, moving to the Sun Belt you have the chance to win a bowl game that doesn't receive much attention.

Don't you get it? They get a chance to live in the neighborhood! Who cares if they can afford drapes or hire a lawn guy, it's about being BIG TIME! ;)

[texcap]

UL-Lafayette will likely make a tiny profit or break even on the game since they are so geographically close to New Orleans.

UL-Monroe will have to spend money to get to the Independence Bowl but have a chance to break even or squeak out a tiny profit since their payout is higher. It's pretty unclear, however, and ULM has had financial issues with their athletics program overall.

UL Monroe is closer to the Independence Bowl (100 miles) than ULL is to New Orleans (about 130 miles).

Not sure why it costs more for a bus on I-20 than one on I-10.

[BEAR]

Left off that list is conference champion Arkansas State, who will be playing #25 Kent State at 9PM on Sunday, January 6.

In all fairness, most people in Arkansas don't know what bowl a-state is playing in and honestly most don't care. There's a reason for that..its the Sunbelt.

[GATA_Eagles]

In all fairness, most people in Arkansas don't know what bowl a-state is playing in and honestly most don't care. There's a reason for that..its the Sunbelt.

You could essentially say the same for FCS in all states but North Dakota, Montana, and Delaware.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

In their defense then, to the majority of America a win in any FBS bowl is worth more than a win in the FCS title game.


Essentially this. Our 6 national championships have value to our fans but we can't wave them in the face of FBS teams. They are a part of our history so we can cherish them, but if we move up thats what they will be -- history. With a playoff format coming to the FBS, the highest ranked non-AQ could get a spot at the table. That's what FCS has to look to now. The defacto BCS champion will be selected by a playoff format. How much will that devalue the FCS championship?

Without looking it up, who won the Beef O' Brady's bowl last year? The Holiday Bowl? can you name 15 bowls off the top of your head?

[tribefan40]

Without looking it up, who won the Beef O' Brady's bowl last year? The Holiday Bowl? can you name 15 bowls off the top of your head?

If you're going with that argument who were all of the BCS bowl teams last year? Who won all of the BCS bowls? I honestly can't name them all.

[Apphole]

In all fairness, most people in Arkansas don't know what bowl a-state is playing in and honestly most don't care. There's a reason for that..its the Sunbelt.

I'm sure the general populous of Are-Kansas is well aware of UCA's recent playoff game....

How do some of you people not see the contradiction in defending staying FCS this way?

[BEAR]

You could essentially say the same for FCS in all states but North Dakota, Montana, and Delaware.

If you don't have BCS in front of your school designation...who cares! (sarcasm)

I go to FCS games because I support my school. Most bcs fans go to games because of the big time feeling they get when they go. I just personally don't care for all that.

[Southern Bison]

In their defense then, to the majority of America a win in any FBS bowl is worth more than a win in the FCS title game.

Riiiiiigghtt...and a majority of America thought a win for Obama would be better. xeyebrowx

[Apphole]

If you don't have BCS in front of your school designation...who cares! (sarcasm)

I go to FCS games because I support my school. Most bcs fans go to games because of the big time feeling they get when they go. I just personally don't care for all that.

Mountaineer and Eagle fans will go to FBS games to support their schools. Why do you have such a problem with what another school is doing aside from closet jealousy?

[DSUrocks07]

I'm sure the general populous or Are-Kansas is well aware of UCA's recent playoff game....

How do some of you people not see the contradiction in defending staying FCS this way?

We're sitting here comparing irrelevant bowl games vs irrelevant playoff games (in the public eye).

You can't make that argument and then say it would be better to stay in FCS. It's hypocritical.

[BEAR]

If UCA were to go FBS, they would be in a conference like the Sunbelt..where noone but the parents of the players would care how they did. UCA at the FCS level gets zero to little media attention in Arkansas and that wouldn't change in a conference like the Sunbelt. I enjoy football at every level and would prefer to watch Arkansas Tech play N.E. Oklahoma because those kids know they aren't typically NFL bound and leave it ALL on the field. Just my opinion though.

[DSUrocks07]

If UCA were to go FBS, they would be in a conference like the Sunbelt..where noone but the parents of the players would care how they did. UCA at the FCS level gets zero to little media attention in Arkansas and that wouldn't change in a conference like the Sunbelt. I enjoy football at every level and would prefer to watch Arkansas Tech play N.E. Oklahoma because those kids know they aren't typically NFL bound and leave it ALL on the field. Just my opinion though.

"UCA is in FCS, they are in a conference called the Southland..where noone but the parents of the players would care how they did."

[BEAR]

"UCA is in FCS, they are in a conference called the Southland..where noone but the parents of the players would care how they did."

I see you've been to some of our games. xlolx

[DSUrocks07]

I see you've been to some of our games. xlolx

Yet you are under the impression that those same people at those games will all disappear if UCA were in the Sunbelt, or were in D2 or D3 or NAIA.

Football is football. And college football teams will have its fans no matter which classification it falls under.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think his point is the money, it's more that these bowls are nothing special. Staying in the FCS you have a chance to win a national championship, moving to the Sun Belt you have the chance to win a bowl game that doesn't receive much attention.

In the I-A structure, about half of the ~120 teams get a post-season bid, most go to a warm weather climate and are welcomed by the host cities, and 32 of them can go out with a win for recruiting purposes. In I-AA, just 20 of 123 teams get a post season bid, and most go out by early December before crowds of under 5,000.

Sure, names like the Beef O' Brady's Bowl are bound to trigger a few laughs, but a day in St. Petersburg still beats a first round game in Staten Island.

[DSUrocks07]

You move up and down in classification in accordance to what your school's fanbase can support, or should be anyways. If UCA were averaging 25,000+ per home game then they should move up to FBS or at least have the opportunity to do so.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Mountaineer and Eagle fans will go to FBS games to support their schools. Why do you have such a problem with what another school is doing aside from closet jealousy?

Just go for christ sake. Oh wait? Nobody wants you yet? Well hopefully soon you can get that better offer and quit being such a tease.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Apologies for forgetting the GoDaddy.Com bowl.


13. GoDaddy.com (Jan. 6): Kent State (11-2) vs. Arkansas State (9-3). The night before what should be a defense-dominated title game, tune in to watch some offensive fireworks. Red Wolves quarterback Ryan Aplin, Kent State jitterbug Dri Archer and many others should race up and down the field with little resistance.

Payout: $750,000 per school

Location: Mobile, AL, 8 hour drive from Arkansas State campus to Mobile

They will probably break even

[DSUrocks07]

In the I-A structure, nearly half of the teams get a post-season bid, most to a warm weather climate, and 32 of them can go out with a win for recruiting purposes. In I-AA, just 20 of 123 teams get a post season bid, and most go out before December before crowds of under 5,000.

Not to mention the extra practice time for bowl participants allowed by the NCAA to improve on your team for the following season.

[Apphole]

Just go for christ sake. Oh wait? Nobody wants you yet? Well hopefully soon you can get that better offer and quit being such a tease.

Interesting time to play that card considering we're just days from rowing away from the Titanic.

I'm sure the NDSU Canadiens will have a jolly good time running up the score on the uncompetitive FCS that programs that remain after realignment is truly finished. You might even have to rent a new venue for all those fans flocking in. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not a single Sun Belt team faces a BCS-level team in the "postseason".

None of these bowls will balance the budgets of their athletic departments.

The bowls are nice postseason awards for the players, who get to play in the postseason, get a little swag, and get an opportunity to suit up one last time, probably in a warm-weather place (though not Western Kentucky, who instead travels to Michigan). But they are hardly the ticket to balancing the budgets, or getting "exposure" by playing BCS-level competition.

[BEAR]

Yet you are under the impression that those same people at those games will all disappear if UCA were in the Sunbelt, or were in D2 or D3 or NAIA.

Football is football. And college football teams will have its fans no matter which classification it falls under.

More people would attend if UCA moved up to the upper level FBS conferences...not if they went lower level. ASU had horrible attendance before 2 years ago when they went on their run. Even their fans will tell you things are different with winning and being ranked. But an unranked team from the Sunbelt...is no different than an FCS and FCS, most of them, will have very few options for lower level FBS conferences.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Interesting time to play that card considering we're just days from rowing away from the Titanic.

I'm sure the NDSU Canadiens will have a jolly good time running up the score on the uncompetitive FCS that programs that remain after realignment is truly finished. You might even have to rent a new venue for all those fans flocking in. xlolx

As I said before, both GSU and App are like that girl who used to be hot and she's like, totally over you guys.

[lionsrking2]

If App State, Georgia Southern etc., have the student body & community support, proper funding and commitment from administration, I'm all for them making a run at FBS football. It's only natural to want to conquer higher mountains once you've mastered the smaller ones. That said, they are where they are and have the national exposure they do because they're pretty good at the FCS gig. Boise State had all the tumblers fall in place and figured out a way to bottle lightning, but odds are, Marshall is a better comparison as to what those schools will look like in 15-20 years. I wonder if those 25-30K crowds will still be there after a few years of 4-8 to 7-5 type seasons and a sporadic Putyournamehere.com Bowl mixed in? Time will tell.

[RadioFan]

Marshall is a better comparison as to what those schools will look like in 15-20 years. I wonder if those 25-30K crowds will still be there after a few years of 4-8 to 7-5 type seasons and a sporadic Putyournamehere.com Bowl mixed in? Time will tell.



Marshall had a 5-7 year and still averaged 24,896 per game this year.

More than every FCS school but Montana and App State.

[asumike83]

In the I-A structure, about half of the ~120 teams get a post-season bid, most go to a warm weather climate and are welcomed by the host cities, and 32 of them can go out with a win for recruiting purposes. In I-AA, just 20 of 123 teams get a post season bid, and most go out by early December before crowds of under 5,000.

Sure, names like the Beef O' Brady's Bowl are bound to trigger a few laughs, but a day in St. Petersburg still beats a first round game in Staten Island.


Not to mention the extra practice time for bowl participants allowed by the NCAA to improve on your team for the following season.

Both are valid points.

Many people that mock a decision to move up seem to think that fans of the FCS teams looking to transition believe that going FBS will make them peers with Alabama. Not the case, of course the big schools will always get the lion's share of media coverage and money but competing with them is not the point.

Playing regional FBS opponents that will generate more interest from your fans and also bring visiting fans to stay in town and spend money is a huge plus for a school like ASU located in a tourist location, as well as maybe getting a game on TV every now and then. The SoCon has gone from SportSouth to PBS to streaming internet in the matter of two years.

An analogy made before that I completely agree with is that a university is like a corporation and athletics are like the marketing department. You may just break even, spend some money or make a small amount but it is a cost of doing business. Playing at the FBS level does allow the opportunity to generate greater exposure for your school if you have the proper funding and support.

It is a decision that is unique to every institution. We have had three programs pop up in prime recruiting areas and go FBS within the past 5 years (ODU, GA State, UNCC) and our biggest conference rival is about to head out the door. JMU, our best regional non-conference rival, will likely not be far behind. Things are changing and I have no problem with being proactive as opposed to reactive. This is a decision that has been considered over the span of several years and I trust those in charge to make the right call for Appalachian.

If other fans have a problem with ASU going FBS, tell your university presidents you want to stay in the FCS. We'll be fine.

[RadioFan]

There's a lot of animosity about App State and GaSo's rumored move to FBS level of football. That I can understand. It's like dating a girl you don't like but would get offended/mad if she broke up with you. So I'm fine seeing the hate.

[RadioFan]

Playing regional FBS opponents that will generate more interest from your fans and also bring visiting fans to stay in town and spend money is a huge plus for a school like ASU located in a tourist location, as well as maybe getting a game on TV every now and then. The SoCon has gone from SportSouth to PBS to streaming internet in the matter of two years.



This is key. I want to repeat that KEY


A home schedule of WKU, GaSo, Troy, Ark St., USA, ULM, ULL, OOC-FBS would generate A LOT more local interest in the mountains of North Carolina than a schedule of Elon, WCU, Citadel, OOC-BigSouth/Div2 could ever bring.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is key. I want to repeat that KEY


A home schedule of WKU, GaSo, Troy, Ark St., USA, ULM, ULL, OOC-FBS would generate A LOT more local interest in the mountains of North Carolina than a schedule of Elon, WCU, Citadel, OOC-BigSouth/Div2 could ever bring.

It would also put an athletic department in the black and put it into the red.

[RadioFan]

It would also put an athletic department in the black and put it into the red.



Got peak of the App State Athletic budget do you?

App already has an Athletic budget in the $17 Million dollar range. Why keep playing teams with budgets in the -10 range?

[RadioFan]

I'm sorry LHN that if you feel a team leaving the FCS is a personal attack against you, but App State has had a Feasibility Committee recommend a move up based on current and future predicted financial growth.

If you know more than the committee does, I implore you to let the Administration at App State know!

[Apphole]

Both are valid points.

Many people that mock a decision to move up seem to think that fans of the FCS teams looking to transition believe that going FBS will make them peers with Alabama. Not the case, of course the big schools will always get the lion's share of media coverage and money but competing with them is not the point.

Playing regional FBS opponents that will generate more interest from your fans and also bring visiting fans to stay in town and spend money is a huge plus for a school like ASU located in a tourist location, as well as maybe getting a game on TV every now and then. The SoCon has gone from SportSouth to PBS to streaming internet in the matter of two years.

An analogy made before that I completely agree with is that a university is like a corporation and athletics are like the marketing department. You may just break even, spend some money or make a small amount but it is a cost of doing business. Playing at the FBS level does allow the opportunity to generate greater exposure for your school if you have the proper funding and support.

It is a decision that is unique to every institution. We have had three programs pop up in prime recruiting areas and go FBS within the past 5 years (ODU, GA State, UNCC) and our biggest conference rival is about to head out the door. JMU, our best regional non-conference rival, will likely not be far behind. Things are changing and I have no problem with being proactive as opposed to reactive. This is a decision that has been considered over the span of several years and I trust those in charge to make the right call for Appalachian.

If other fans have a problem with ASU going FBS, tell your university presidents you want to stay in the FCS. We'll be fine.


Mike, copy this post and save it in a word processor since we have to explain it to these people every couple of weeks. It will save you a lot of time.

[walliver]

The purpose of playing football is to play football. If play-offs and bowls were cancelled, most of us would still go to the games and still come to AGS and brag, moan, and complain.

I have always believed that any school should be able to compete at any level it chooses, as long as I'm not taxed for it.

What I don't like is the loss of rivalries. All this conference hopping destroys established rivalries.

[RadioFan]

What I don't like is the loss of rivalries. All this conference hopping destroys established rivalries.


I agree to that. If App and GaSo move up, I hope against hope that they move to the same conference.

[dbackjon]

Marshall had a 5-7 year and still averaged 24,896 per game this year.

More than every FCS school but Montana and App State.

Marshall is also the "second" Public school in a state - so they can lay claim to a good portion of a state.

Once you are the third, fourth, fifth, etc option in your state, then potential drops greatly.

[RadioFan]

Marshall is also the "second" Public school in a state - so they can lay claim to a good portion of a state.

Once you are the third, fourth, fifth, etc option in your state, then potential drops greatly.



Also, Marsha has the unfortunate circumstance of being in a state the size of a thimble with the only "real" school, in people's eyes, in the BCS.

NC doesn't have that challenge. No school in this state has a monopoly on football, and all are well supported regionally.

App State is in a town with a population of 17,000. They draw 28k each week.

[Apphole]

Marshall is also the "second" Public school in a state - so they can lay claim to a good portion of a state.

Once you are the third, fourth, fifth, etc option in your state, then potential drops greatly.

Unless you're talking about the State of West Virginia vs the State of North Carolina.

Popluation:

WV-1,855,364
NC-9,656,401
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

There would be even more of a discrepancy in intelligent life, but I can't find a reliable source for that one.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I genuinely don't think anybody cares if App and GSU move up, it's all the incessant bleating on and on about moving up that is getting tiresome.

Nobody's jealous, certainly not me. Neither school has been an impediment to my school's success. I love FCS and would never want to be Western Kentucky.

[GATA_Eagles]

Unless you're talking about the State of West Virginia vs the State of North Carolina.

Popluation:

WV-1,855,364
NC-9,656,401
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

There would be even more of a discrepancy in intelligent life, but I can't find a reliable source for that one.

If we're going with the conference realignment mindset, I think I now qualify as a reliable source.

[MplsBison]

I don't think his point is the money, it's more that these bowls are nothing special. Staying in the FCS you have a chance to win a national championship, moving to the Sun Belt you have the chance to win a bowl game that doesn't receive much attention.

Yet these bowl games are all on ESPN...

[RadioFan]

Nobody's jealous, certainly not me. Neither school has been an impediment to my school's success. I love FCS and would never want to be Western Kentucky.

Why did NDSU move up to FCS? Was it because the institution had grown into a position where moving up was worth it? Was it to get better competition? Was it to grow regional rivalries?


Each of of those are why App and GaSo want to move up.

[Apphole]

I genuinely don't think anybody cares if App and GSU move up, it's all the incessant bleating on and on about moving up that is getting tiresome.

Nobody's jealous, certainly not me. Neither school has been an impediment to my school's success. I love FCS and would never want to be Western Kentucky.

Thats why you're all over this thread right?

Color me unconvinced.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's be clear here and say that I'm not here posting this information saying X school should or should not go to the Sun Belt. I'm merely saying what the bowls are, whom they're playing, and the payouts.

If you want to go to the FBS, that's fine. If you're going because you're going to play a bowl against Michigan, well, good luck with that. If you're going in order to get $$$ in the postseason, well, good luck with that.

Most importantly, though, if you're going because rivalries with other Sun Belt schools fit your vision of where you want to be in the next 20 years, I have zero problem with that. It will cost you, but I can respect the decision.

[asumike83]

I genuinely don't think anybody cares if App and GSU move up, it's all the incessant bleating on and on about moving up that is getting tiresome.

This thread was not started by an Appalachian or Georgia Southern fan. It was started to create a conversation about why we should not move up, which you promptly chimed in on. Tiresome, I agree.

[MplsBison]

Apphole - I for one would love for NDSU to move up to I-A football.

I-AA: been there, done that... it's clear that NDSU getting left behind once again, just like the DII days and are still not with our peer group.


And it's sad that NDSU has no opportunity while App and GSU have great opportunities in front of them. Good luck to both!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This thread was not started by an Appalachian or Georgia Southern fan. It was started to create a conversation about why we should not move up, which you promptly chimed in on. Tiresome, I agree.

Check Post #53.

[Apphole]

Let's be clear here and say that I'm not here posting this information saying X school should or should not go to the Sun Belt. I'm merely saying what the bowls are, whom they're playing, and the payouts.

If you want to go to the FBS, that's fine. If you're going because you're going to play a bowl against Michigan, well, good luck with that. If you're going in order to get $$$ in the postseason, well, good luck with that.

Most importantly, though, if you're going because rivalries with other Sun Belt schools fit your vision of where you want to be in the next 20 years, I have zero problem with that. It will cost you, but I can respect the decision.

Oh puh-lease, man. You're not convincing anyone that you're just some objective little convo starter. You added snarky little explanations to every bowl you listed and you didn't even mention the biggest and most lucrative SBC bowl for the year.

Careful not to fall over while you back petal.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Thats why you're all over this thread right?

Color me unconvinced.

It's a message board.

Cost of entry = 0

[lionsrking2]

Marshall had a 5-7 year and still averaged 24,896 per game this year.

More than every FCS school but Montana and App State.

Yeah, that's what they claim anyway ... UAB says they averaged 17K yet we played them on their Homecoming and there weren't half that many actually in the stands. They claimed 16,212 showed up that day ... actual attendance was closer to 7K.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Oh puh-lease, man. You're not convincing anyone that you're just some objective little convo starter. You added snarky little explanations to every bowl you listed and you didn't even mention the biggest and most lucrative SBC bowl for the year.

Careful not to fall over while you back petal.

Not true. The most lucrative payout is $1.1 million for the Independence Bowl, which I mentioned.

And I have no back petal.

[Apphole]

It's a message board.

Cost of entry = 0

If you truly didn't care, you'd ignore the thread and not even click on it.

[BEAR]

Sold tickets does not equal butts in seats. It's worse at the FBS level. I've been to plenty of regional FBS games and announced attendance was WAY above actual attendance. Doesn't the FBS require 15k tickets to be sold each game? or is that requirement gone now too?

[Doc QB]

A home schedule of WKU, GaSo, Troy, Ark St., USA, ULM, ULL, OOC-FBS would generate A LOT more local interest in the mountains of North Carolina than a schedule of Elon, WCU, Citadel, OOC-BigSouth/Div2 could ever bring.

I am all for people wanting to grow their respective programs. The above statement is curious. As I have admittedly no familiarity of the ASU regional fanbase, I wonder how one of the FCSs leading attendance programs will draw more than 28,000 to their place (as you listed in another posting) from a town of 17,000? Do the likes of the Sunbelt teams really offer more to the casual western NC fan than Western Carolina, Elon and some of the South Carolina schools? Will fans from further away now come to see Troy State? I am not sure I buy the actual Sunbelt schools being a better attraction, I see a dominant, entertaining App squad regardless of FCS/FBS) putting fannies in the seats as the common denominator.

Being in the Sunbelt is curious too. It is filled with I-AA teams that have jumped. They play in some bowl games which is pretty sweet. But aside from those occasional bowl game seasons, what you really have is playing teams that once were I-AA, and maybe an OOC game against one of the big boys in a power FBS conference. So my question is, how is that really markedly different than App playing in the SoCon, winning it, and playing a Michigan OCC like a few years back? Again, no smack intended, as I have immense respect for ASU.

[RadioFan]

I wonder how one of the FCSs leading attendance programs will draw more than 28,000 to their place (as you listed in another posting) from a town of 17,000? Do the likes of the Sunbelt teams really offer more to the casual western NC fan than Western Carolina, Elon and some of the South Carolina schools? .


Appalachian has a rabid fan base that demands the best. Playing a school like Western (who no one even in NC cares about) still gets 28k in the stands. Imagine getting a school that has even a little bit of national recognition, like Troy, into KBS.



I have been going to Appalachian games since 1990 and I have seen the crowds grow slowly from 8k average to 28k average. And just my personal opinion as a fan and former alumnus of the school is there would be more excitement to play Troy on a Thursday night on ESPN than WCU on Saturday.

[MarkyMark]

I got no problem with any FCS team moving up to FBS. If the FCS system with its playoffs no longer get your fanbase excited and you think the chance to play in a bowl game would be more exciting than by all means, move on up. Also, if you have FBS type facilities, a large enthusiastic fanbase and money available to your athletic dept. to compete at the next level your school might have a chance to make a name for itself at the FBS level.

I would argue that GSU, UM, App. State and Youngstown have achieved national attention and recognition due to multiple titles won at the FCS level.

As a fan I really enjoy the playoffs and the potential 15 game schedules, the lower end bowls don't interest me, getting my game on ESPN doesn't matter to me right now. Maybe it will get old after NDSU overtakes GSU's 6 national titles.

[RadioFan]

Snarky, Penis envy, etc... I can't precisely find the right phrase, but this thread is full of it.

[Pard4Life]

Being the next Boise State should be the goal. There are probably only two teams in the FCS who have the potential to build a tremendous program based on their organization and brand: Appalachian State and Montana. I could see NDSU doing the same, but the Dome is a bit small. Hey, NDSU could probably be .500 against some of the weaker Midwestern major FCS teams i.e. Iowa, Kansas.

That said, ASU and Montana should move up... but I'd put ASU directly in C-USA.

[RadioFan]

I would say Montana, GaSo, Appalachian, JMU and UDel have the means and environment to grow into a Boise State type athletic department.

[asumike83]

Being in the Sunbelt is curious too. It is filled with I-AA teams that have jumped. They play in some bowl games which is pretty sweet. But aside from those occasional bowl game seasons, what you really have is playing teams that once were I-AA, and maybe an OOC game against one of the big boys in a power FBS conference. So my question is, how is that really markedly different than App playing in the SoCon, winning it, and playing a Michigan OCC like a few years back? Again, no smack intended, as I have immense respect for ASU.

Biggest difference is that we can get some of those non-conference FBS opponents (not Michigan of course but regional schools) to visit Boone, which would be great for our school and all the local businesses. Given the interest from our fans and the traveling contingent of visiting fans, I have no doubt that we could get 35K+ in the stands for a game against a school like East Carolina.

[MarkyMark]

Being the next Boise State should be the goal. There are probably only two teams in the FCS who have the potential to build a tremendous program based on their organization and brand: Appalachian State and Montana. I could see NDSU doing the same, but the Dome is a bit small. Hey, NDSU could probably be .500 against some of the weaker Midwestern major FCS teams i.e. Iowa, Kansas.
That said, ASU and Montana should move up... but I'd put ASU directly in C-USA.

I agree, FargoDome is great for FCS but not adequate to compete at FBS level.

NDSU beat Kansas last year, next up is K State in 2013.

[TheRevSFA]

It's great that App and Ga South have the opportunity to move up, but don't thumb your nose at those who remain FCS either because their schools can't or won't move up.

[RadioFan]

It's great that App and Ga South have the opportunity to move up, but don't thumb your nose at those who remain FCS either because their schools can't or won't move up.



Never. I would immediately adopt Tenn Tech (possibly Coastal) as my new FCS team. I love the FCS. I just feel it's App's time to move up.

[Pard4Life]

Never. I would immediately adopt Tenn Tech (possibly Coastal) as my new FCS team. I love the FCS. I just feel it's App's time to move up.

C'mon... Davidson needs some love!

[RadioFan]

Gridiron Classic needs to be reinstated.

[Apphole]

It's great that App and Ga South have the opportunity to move up, but don't thumb your nose at those who remain FCS either because their schools can't or won't move up.

No one does that. It's a constant battle of us defending our position from constant attack from resentful FCS stayers. Read this thread.

[Pard4Life]

Gridiron Classic needs to be reinstated.

Don't think it's happening given that the Pioneer now has an auto-bid and the NEC has had one for a few seasons now. But it was a good idea... went to the San Diego-Monmouth game and got to see Harbaugh. Does anyone remember those Toreros fans here?

[TheRevSFA]

No one does that. It's a constant battle of us defending our position from constant attack from resentful FCS stayers. Read this thread.

Referring to the FCS as Titanic.....especially when you do not have an invite yet. You may not get it. Lamar could swipe your spot especially since they have a bigger market and were in the Belt before.

[cbarrier90]

Where's the payout for BCS bound Northern Illinois, from that scoffed-at MAC conference?

What about that MAC championship game that drew a national audience, went to OT, and was between two Top 25 ranked teams?

The MAC is terrible, right guys? I mean, if you're not in the BCS you have no shot at anything and it's pointless...right, guys? Guys...?

[asumike83]

It's great that App and Ga South have the opportunity to move up, but don't thumb your nose at those who remain FCS either because their schools can't or won't move up.

I will thumb my nose and bombard your inbox with "Knock, knock" jokes until the end of time!

[TheRevSFA]

I will thumb my nose and bombard your inbox with "Knock, knock" jokes until the end of time!

Oh the knock-knock jokes...I was debating on bringing that back given this newest round of App to SBC but I decided to pass.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Where's the payout for BCS bound Northern Illinois, from that scoffed-at MAC conference?

Off topic. The topic is the Sun Belt, unless App has an invite to the MAC that has hitherto been unreported.

[dbackjon]

Unless you're talking about the State of West Virginia vs the State of North Carolina.

Popluation:

WV-1,855,364
NC-9,656,401
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_and_territories_by_population

There would be even more of a discrepancy in intelligent life, but I can't find a reliable source for that one.


Apples to Oranges - big difference between #2 on the pecking order and #4/5/6

App State will still draw well in FBS, but I don't forsee a huge increase in attendance.

If App feels playing UNCC/ECU/GSUx2 is the right place for them, then by all means move.

[RadioFan]

Off topic.


My ***. Just as much on topic as FBS talk is on an FCS board.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My ***. Just as much on topic as FBS talk is on an FCS board.

Re: Sun Belt Bowls

[lionsrking2]

No one does that. It's a constant battle of us defending our position from constant attack from resentful FCS stayers. Read this thread.

I just wish APP/GSU and whoever would go ahead and jump so we can eliminate all these threads and center discussion around those who respect and want to be FCS. I guess that makes me a hypocrite for reading and responding to this thread, but the degrading comments about FCS get a little old, especially coming from fans of programs who've benefited and grown tremendously from being FCS or I-AA. That's not personally directed at you but in general.

[RadioFan]

Re: Sun Belt Bowls

Thread has evolved, sorry kid.

[dbackjon]

Appalachian has a rabid fan base that demands the best. Playing a school like Western (who no one even in NC cares about) still gets 28k in the stands. Imagine getting a school that has even a little bit of national recognition, like Troy, into KBS.



I have been going to Appalachian games since 1990 and I have seen the crowds grow slowly from 8k average to 28k average. And just my personal opinion as a fan and former alumnus of the school is there would be more excitement to play Troy on a Thursday night on ESPN than WCU on Saturday.

A bunch of Former FCS teams that most will still think are FBS isn't going to change anything.

Sure, you will be excited for your first Thursday night ESPN2 game, but after that, novelty wears off for those trips to San Marcos, Jonesboro, and Monroe.

[cbarrier90]

Off topic. The topic is the Sun Belt, unless App has an invite to the MAC that has hitherto been unreported.

WE WILL ONLY TALK ABOUT BOWL GAMES THAT ADHERE TO MY ARGUMENT! I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!

[RadioFan]

especially coming from fans of programs who've benefited and grown tremendously from being FCS or I-AA.



Programs don't benefit from their postseason being on ESPN3 compared to TV. Teams don't benefit from being in conferences (SoCon) without a single TV deal.

Programs grow despite that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

WE WILL ONLY TALK ABOUT BOWL GAMES THAT ADHERE TO MY ARGUMENT! I REJECT YOUR REALITY AND SUBSTITUTE MY OWN!

What FCS schools again are rumored to be headed to the MAC?

[RadioFan]

A bunch of Former FCS teams that most will still think are FBS isn't going to change anything.


Says someone across the country who has absolutely no idea about what Appalachian and the local community is.

[RadioFan]

What FCS schools again are rumored to be headed to the MAC?


I can point to threads on MAC boards about JMU, UDel and App moving to compliment UMass.

Which is just as solid as all the forum talk about App/GaSo to the SunBelt.

[lionsrking2]

Programs don't benefit from their postseason being on ESPN3 compared to TV. Teams don't benefit from being in conferences (SoCon) without a single TV deal.

Programs grow despite that.

So what you're saying is FCS has held you back?

[RadioFan]

So what you're saying is FCS has held you back?


I'm saying Appalachian has reached a point where the FCS isn't benefiting them, yes.

[TheRevSFA]

Programs don't benefit from their postseason being on ESPN3 compared to TV. Teams don't benefit from being in conferences (SoCon) without a single TV deal.

Programs grow despite that.


You don't think Sam Houston benefitted from having 3 games on ESPN2?

[RadioFan]

You don't think Sam Houston benefitted from having 3 games on ESPN2?


??? I'm saying the opposite.

[MplsBison]

Off topic. The topic is the Sun Belt, unless App has an invite to the MAC that has hitherto been unreported.

It's dead on topic.

If a MAC team can go to a BCS bowl - then any MAC, Sun Belt or CUSA program can make it to not only a BCS bowl, but in a couple years the new I-A playoff!

[cbarrier90]

What FCS schools again are rumored to be headed to the MAC?

You know darn well what I was trying to say in that argument. Given a 12-0 season, a Sun Belt team can make the BCS dance. Heck, NIU went 11-1 in the MAC and made it.

Good luck trying to find a potential payout in the millions for the FCS playoffs.

[MplsBison]

Here's what I don't understand: ok fine, there are a lot of fans of I-AA and want their programs to remain. Fine! There's nothing wrong with that.

Why then is there such bitter....BITTER...HATRED... of teams that want to move up? Why do you hate them?

[TheRevSFA]

I'm saying Appalachian has reached a point where the FCS isn't benefiting them, yes.

While App had that great run of 4 NCs..they've dropped off. They can't win a playoff game at home, and now you're getting a new coach.

How would that affect App in FBS play?

(Not meant for smack)

[Thunderstruck]

For GSU and ASU why all this talk about the Sun Belt. With all of the conference realignment, they both could be Big East members soon. :)

[RadioFan]

While App had that great run of 4 NCs..they've dropped off. They can't win a playoff game at home, and now you're getting a new coach.

How would that affect App in FBS play?

(Not meant for smack)


They haven't won a playoff game in 3 years. Why do you think Coach Moore's contract wasn't re-upped?

I wouldn't consider an 8-3 season with mostly sophomores and juniors "dropping off the map"

[TheRevSFA]

??? I'm saying the opposite.

You said programs don't benefit from being on TV. Sam did with games on ESPN2. That's truth..

What do you think benefitted App more? Winning 4 NCs or beating Michigan?

[TheRevSFA]

They haven't won a playoff game in 3 years. Why do you think Coach Moore's contract wasn't re-upped?

I wouldn't consider an 8-3 season with mostly sophomores and juniors "dropping off the map"

After 4 NCs, it's a drop..not a steep one but a drop.

Don't worry..my team can't even make the playoffs at the moment, so I still envy your season

[RadioFan]

You said programs don't benefit from being on TV.


I said:



Programs don't benefit from their postseason being on ESPN3 compared to TV. Teams don't benefit from being in conferences (SoCon) without a single TV deal.

[MplsBison]

You said programs don't benefit from being on TV. Sam did with games on ESPN2. That's truth..

What do you think benefitted App more? Winning 4 NCs or beating Michigan?

Winning a national championship of the minor leagues doesn't mean much to anyone other than fans and members of that specific program.

[ElCid]

Appalachian has a rabid fan base that demands the best. Playing a school like Western (who no one even in NC cares about) still gets 28k in the stands. Imagine getting a school that has even a little bit of national recognition, like Troy, into KBS.

Too funny. Most people not familiar with the Sunbelt have never heard of them. I asked some relatives with a occasional interest in watching college football, and they thought they were a lower division team.

It really does not matter to me whether App or Ga So leave, but moving into the lower tier of the FBS just seems like a bad move. Everyone keeps talking about how much exposure they will get. Yes they may eventually get a bowl game that a few people watch, and it is more viewership than the FCS gets apparently. However, as someone who loves to watch college football, I have never been able to watch SB, MAC or current WAC. Conf USA and MW are occasionally tolerable. Why, because all those schools just suck when compared to their competition (P12, Big10, B12, ACC, SEC, Big East) I will watch FCS, BCS, all day long, but the lower tier FBS is never even a consideration for the TV schedule.

I am thinking I would rather watch reruns of Bonanza before I could stomach watching North Texas and Florida Atlantic duke it out. Although I might watch App and Ga So if they move up, I suspect it will become like Marshall. I watched them for a couple years after they left the SOCON but finally I could care less about them ( I hated them anyway).

I am not sure that more folks would show up at KBS for LA-Monroe than for Western. Maybe, but I doubt it.

[RadioFan]

If it were just about championships App State would move DivII/III. It's not. It's about competing with institutions that want to make the effort to compete at the highest level.

Do you think App State's administration can continue to justify spending $17 million on the Athletic Budget competing against schools that spend half that?

App State's admin wants the align the school with others with the same mindset.

If people get bitchy about that, then I can't help you.

[TheRevSFA]

Winning a national championship of the minor leagues doesn't mean much to anyone other than fans and members of that specific program.

Winning a minor bowl has the same effect

[cbarrier90]

What do you think benefitted App more? Winning 4 NCs or beating Michigan?

Beating Michigan, and it isn't close. That single game catapulted ASU from a regional to national name.

KBS expansion didn't happen until after that season, when a second deck on the East side was added, followed by the athletic facility in 2009.

Winning the national championships was great for respect in the college-saturated state of NC, but Michigan did more on a bigger level than all 3 combined.

The fact that ASU hasn't won any national titles since that year actually helps the argument that ASU needs to go FBS. All about the program's momentum. Think of where GSU would be had they taken their opportunities in the mid-late 80s or late 90s.

[DJnva]

Winning a minor bowl has the same effect


Yeah...but there's only one national title and lots of "minor bowls".

[Mattymc727]

I agree with others. As long as you are in an FBS conference, you have a shot at a BCS bowl game (Northern Illinois and their 17mil payout). Winning the title in FCS doesnt get an athletic department 17 million...Wasnt Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl a few years back too?

[RadioFan]

Non AQ teams are 5-2 in BCS against AQ teams.


It happens. That's 7 teams in just a few years.

[TheRevSFA]

Refreshing talk guys.

If Appy and Georgia South get invited, I do wish you guys the best in FBS. Too bad it'll keep SFA from ever travelling to Boone unless it's a bodybag game. I always wanted a reason to visit the Rock

[Apphole]

Refreshing talk guys.

If Appy and Georgia South get invited, I do wish you guys the best in FBS. Too bad it'll keep SFA from ever travelling to Boone unless it's a bodybag game. I always wanted a reason to visit the Rock

FBS or FCS, SFA coming to The Rock is a bodybag game.

[TheRevSFA]

FBS or FCS, SFA coming to The Rock is a bodybag game.

Not if it were in the playoffs :D

[RadioFan]

Not if it were in the playoffs :D


Here Here...


xslapfightx

[PAllen]

And Western Kentucky has already gotten more exposure for their appearance in the Little Ceasars Bowl this year than they did when they won the I-AA national championship and I highly doubt they made a profit in that year's post season either. That's why teams want to move up. I personally have little taste for the lower level bowls, but for the teams involved it certainly is much more exposure than anything FCS can offer. Unless of course, you're going to schedule and then beat Michigan in their house.

[dbackjon]

I agree with others. As long as you are in an FBS conference, you have a shot at a BCS bowl game (Northern Illinois and their 17mil payout). Winning the title in FCS doesnt get an athletic department 17 million...Wasnt Hawaii in the Sugar Bowl a few years back too?

NIU will be good to break even.

The exposure is worth millions, but NIU has to buy 17,500 tickets at $100+ a pop, plus on the hook for hundreds of 400/night hotel rooms. Plus, the money is split among the schools. The MAC has assured NIU it won't lose money, but NIU will end up NETTING closer to $1 million, if that much.

[dbackjon]

And Western Kentucky has already gotten more exposure for their appearance in the Little Ceasars Bowl this year than they did when they won the I-AA national championship and I highly doubt they made a profit in that year's post season either. That's why teams want to move up. I personally have little taste for the lower level bowls, but for the teams involved it certainly is much more exposure than anything FCS can offer. Unless of course, you're going to schedule and then beat Michigan in their house.

What exposure for PIZZA/PIZZA? Other than a mention that they made their first bowl, they aren't getting much press.

[asumike83]

NIU will be good to break even.

The exposure is worth millions, but NIU has to buy 17,500 tickets at $100+ a pop, plus on the hook for hundreds of 400/night hotel rooms. Plus, the money is split among the schools. The MAC has assured NIU it won't lose money, but NIU will end up NETTING closer to $1 million, if that much.

That is the big thing, right there. Going back to the analogy of the school being a corporation and athletics being the marketing department, that is exposure that just cannot be obtained at this level with the exception of a once in a lifetime App/Michigan moment.

[lionsrking2]

Beating Michigan, and it isn't close. That single game catapulted ASU from a regional to national name.

KBS expansion didn't happen until after that season, when a second deck on the East side was added, followed by the athletic facility in 2009.

Winning the national championships was great for respect in the college-saturated state of NC, but Michigan did more on a bigger level than all 3 combined.

The fact that ASU hasn't won any national titles since that year actually helps the argument that ASU needs to go FBS. All about the program's momentum. Think of where GSU would be had they taken their opportunities in the mid-late 80s or late 90s.

As far as a singular event, I don't think anyone would question that App State has benefited more from beating Michigan when it comes to national exposure; however, the climb through I-AA and FCS, including two consecutive National Championships preceding the Michigan win, put your program in position to win that game ... they were able to recruit the type of player, or get the right FBS transfer because of their position as an FCS power. We'll never know, but I'm not sure your program would be in the same position it is now, from a perception standpoint, had you always been I-A or FBS and had to fight for scraps to compete ... FCS allowed your program to thrive and achieve dominance, and a level of respect, on a national level ... I just hope your fans respect that. Like I said before, I don't begrudge App wanting to move up, because I think they're in position to make a go of it, I'm just tired of some trashing I-AA/FCS on the way out the door.

[RadioFan]

NIU will be good to break even.

The exposure is worth millions, but NIU has to buy 17,500 tickets at $100+ a pop, plus on the hook for hundreds of 400/night hotel rooms. Plus, the money is split among the schools. The MAC has assured NIU it won't lose money, but NIU will end up NETTING closer to $1 million, if that much.


Show me some sources with numbers?

(17,500 tickets x $100) + (400 hotels x $200) = less than $2 million of the $17 million. I find it hard they'll "be good to break even".

Unless you have some solid numbers to prove your point.

And you're also forgetting that each conference has a fund for Bowl teams to be distributed to teams.

[RadioFan]

I'm just tired of some trashing I-AA/FCS on the way out the door.


More trash talk going the other way, friend.

[lionsrking2]

Show me some sources with numbers?

(17,500 tickets x $100) + (400 hotels x $200) = less than $2 million of the $17 million. I find it hard they'll "be good to break even".

Unless you have some solid numbers to prove your point.

And you're also forgetting that each conference has a fund for Bowl teams to be distributed to teams.

For starters, they don't get to keep 17 million ... it's split among the MAC conference though not sure what the bylaws are and what the split is ... don't know the figures but I believe UCONN may have lost money when they played Oklahoma a couple of years ago.

[lionsrking2]

More trash talk going the other way, friend.

Not saying there isn't, but there is a reasonable discussion to be had on the merits of both points of view. That said, I guess my point is this is a website dedicated to passionate fans who enjoy FCS football ... when I constantly read about this school and that school moving up because FCS sucks, it's a second-rate league, etc., it gets a bit offensive for those who actually like this level of football and support programs who understand their place and content to make the most of it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

More trash talk going the other way, friend.

One person's "trash talk" = another person's facts?

[RadioFan]

Here's a fact for you LFN:


I'll just post what I posted earlier:


If it were just about championships App State would move DivII/III. It's not. It's about competing with institutions that want to make the effort to compete at the highest level.

Do you think App State's administration can continue to justify spending $17 million on the Athletic Budget competing against schools that spend half that?

App State's admin wants to align the school with others of the same mindset.

If people get bitchy about that, then I can't help you.

[Lehigh'98]

It's dead on topic.

If a MAC team can go to a BCS bowl - then any MAC, Sun Belt or CUSA program can make it to not only a BCS bowl, but in a couple years the new I-A playoff!

Its a valid point. Would love to see App or GSU in a national playoff in 1-A. Odds are low, but things can change.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's dead on topic.

If a MAC team can go to a BCS bowl - then any MAC, Sun Belt or CUSA program can make it to not only a BCS bowl, but in a couple years the new I-A playoff!

The FBS plus-one will remain just that for the forseeable future. It might take a decade for people to figure this out - even you, MplsBison - but you will.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's a fact for you LFN

You must have missed the post where I said that if the Sun Belt is where you want to be for the next 10-20 years and you want to have rivalries with those schools, like UL-Monroe and Georgia State, that's a perfectly good reason to move up. It will cost a lot more money, but that makes sense.

[ASUMountaineer]

After 4 NCs, it's a drop..not a steep one but a drop.

Don't worry..my team can't even make the playoffs at the moment, so I still envy your season

I appreciate the support Rev, but ASU only has 3 NCs...should have gotten one in 2009, but UM took care of business at home.

[Skjellyfetti]

Payouts (2011 numbers):

Independence $1.1 million per school
New Orleans Bowl: $500,000 per school
Little Caesars Bowl: $600,000 per school


Not reading the whole thread to see if it's already covered.

But, what is the current NCAA playoff payout? Is it competitive with these numbers? xcoffeex

[lionsrking2]

Not reading the whole thread to see if it's already covered.

But, what is the current NCAA playoff payout? Is it competitive with these numbers? xcoffeex

It's not the payout, it's whether you make money, lose money or break even. UCONN lost money going to a BCS bowl ... I'm sure ULM might actually pocket something by going to the Indy ... I for one would be willing to lose a little going to the playoffs ... I would not going to some small bowl game vs a .500 opponent.

[Blue Eagle]

I dare say few on this board has loved the I-AA and FCS Playoffs more or have attended more playoff games (more than 40) and National Championship Games (8) than I have...

With that said I wanted Ga Southern to stay in the FCS until last spring when I finally realized that unless Ga Southern tries to move up they
will never grow and will never be considered anything except the big fish in a little pond no matter how many more NC they win...

Whereas in the FBS there is a legitimate chance they can become a top 25 team not every year but enough they can become a nationally recognized team...

If Boise State can do it there is no reason Ga Southern can't do it when you consider the football talent in the State of Georgia which produces more SEC players than any other state including Florida...

[Mattymc727]

After further reading, it sounds like its the conference that gets the bowl payouts, then the conference distributes the bowl payout evenly amongst its schools. So does Umass get a portion of NIU's appearance in the Orange bowl? That sounds rediculous.

[Mattymc727]

http://www.wwlp.com/dpp/news/local/hampshire/umass-gets-0-from-macs-bcs-payout

Looks like they would have if it werent for the transition.

[Skjellyfetti]

After further reading, it sounds like its the conference that gets the bowl payouts, then the conference distributes the bowl payout evenly amongst its schools. So does Umass get a portion of NIU's appearance in the Orange bowl? That sounds rediculous.

Different conferences do it different ways.

[boogereagle]

Since fans of some FCS teams are eyeing the Sun Belt longingly, I thought it worth it to detail exactly what bowls the Sun Belt student-athletes will be attending.



Please note that not all fans of some FCS teams are eyeing the Sun Belt (or FBS, for that matter) longingly. Some of us like where we are.

[boogereagle]

I dare say few on this board has loved the I-AA and FCS Playoffs more or have attended more playoff games (more than 40) and National Championship Games (8) than I have...

With that said I wanted Ga Southern to stay in the FCS until last spring when I finally realized that unless Ga Southern tries to move up they
will never grow and will never be considered anything except the big fish in a little pond no matter how many more NC they win...
Whereas in the FBS there is a legitimate chance they can become a top 25 team not every year but enough they can become a nationally recognized team...

If Boise State can do it there is no reason Ga Southern can't do it when you consider the football talent in the State of Georgia which produces more SEC players than any other state including Florida...

I could understand this argument if we were winning national championships every other year. We aren't. Hell, the Eagles haven't gotten to the championship game since 2000.

As for the notion that FBS will help us grow, I can only ask how much more growth can Georgia Southern stand?
It was known as the fastest growing trailer park in the South when I was there in the early 90s, thanks to all the portables. Now we're finaly starting to catch up in terms of infrastructure and facilities and folks seem to think that means it's time to double in size again. Hell, I hate the traffic there now. Can't imagine what it will be like 10 years down the road.

[ASUMountaineer]

It's not the payout, it's whether you make money, lose money or break even. UCONN lost money going to a BCS bowl ... I'm sure ULM might actually pocket something by going to the Indy ... I for one would be willing to lose a little going to the playoffs ... I would not going to some small bowl game vs a .500 opponent.

I like how you use the term "small" to describe particular bowl games to push your opinion, but don't use similar descriptions for the playoffs. With that said, I for one would be willing to lose a little going to the playoffs, and I'd be willing to lose a little to go to "some small bowl game vs. a .500 opponent."

Which opinion do you regard as most valid? I'm sure I can guess. Each situation is different, and ASU's has been studied by many distinguished people with access to more knowledge and facts that I have. They came to the conclusion that it is in ASU's best interest to move to FBS. You're welcome to your opinion that FCS>FBS, but not to your own facts in regards to ASU's particular situation.

Please note, I am not posting this to bash the FCS. I love FCS and will continue to follow FCS even if ASU does move to FBS.

[unknown3]

In their defense then, to the majority of America a win in any FBS bowl is worth more than a win in the FCS title game.

Not sure why folks don't get this by now. FCS fans and FCS fans only care about a national championship that isn't the BCS. Honestly the majority of people probably couldn't even tell you who even won the FCS championship for the last 10 years. It's like a homeless man telling the drug addict that he needs to improve himself. And that New Orleans bowl will likely draw 45-50K easily.

[lionsrking2]

I like how you use the term "small" to describe particular bowl games to push your opinion, but don't use similar descriptions for the playoffs. With that said, I for one would be willing to lose a little going to the playoffs, and I'd be willing to lose a little to go to "some small bowl game vs. a .500 opponent."

Which opinion do you regard as most valid? I'm sure I can guess. Each situation is different, and ASU's has been studied by many distinguished people with access to more knowledge and facts that I have. They came to the conclusion that it is in ASU's best interest to move to FBS. You're welcome to your opinion that FCS>FBS, but not to your own facts in regards to ASU's particular situation.

Please note, I am not posting this to bash the FCS. I love FCS and will continue to follow FCS even if ASU does move to FBS.

First of all, as you correctly stated, it was my opinion. Secondly, the Armed Forces Bowl features two 6-6 teams (Rice & Air Force) at a payout of $600,000; New Mexico Bowl features two 7-5 teams with a payout of $456,250 ... the Pointsettia Bowl has a 7-5 BYU team with a payout of $500,000 ... the Hawaii Bowl features a 6-6 SMU team with a payout of $650,000 ... the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl pits 6-6 CMU vs 7-5 WKU at $750,000 ... the GoDaddy.com bowl is a good matchup between 9-3 Ark State and 11-2 Kent State but the payout is only $750,000 ... and there's the New Orleans Bowl with 8-4 ULL, 8-4 ECU at a payout of $500,000, the Beef O'Brady's Bowl at $537,500 with 9-3 Ball State and 9-4 UCF.

Maybe "small" isn't the term you would use, but in comparison to the BCS, secondary New Year's bowls, and even the third tier bowls, they are indeed small. Pardon me for preferring the FCS and playoffs over such an arrangement. I don't consider the playoff small, because I don't think there's anything "small" about competing for a national championship vs worthy competition among our peers. There's no price tag for that IMO.

As for ASU, like I said several times already, I don't have an issue with them wanting to make a move ... the numbers are obviously there to support it and the fan base appears to want it. Happy Trails!

[gsueagle2424]

I just wasted 15 min of my life reading this thread....

I love the FCS but everyone on this board knows that athletics (mainly football) will grow a school and community faster than anything else. Going to FBS (any level) means more exposure which means more money which means a growing school both athletically and academically, which means a growing and thriving community.

Going FBS means a lot more to GSU than just athletics and I can probably vouch for Appy on this too.

[Saint3333]

I just wasted 15 min of my life reading this thread....

I love the FCS but everyone on this board knows that athletics (mainly football) will grow a school and community faster than anything else. Going to FBS (any level) means more exposure which means more money which means a growing school both athletically and academically, which means a growing and thriving community.

Going FBS means a lot more to GSU than just athletics and I can probably vouch for Appy on this too.

App's chancellor is a business man and considers the athletic department a marketing department of sorts. The FBS conferences have better TV deals for all sports. That is what is driving the decision sorry to burst Lehigh boy's bubble.

[lionsrking2]

I just wasted 15 min of my life reading this thread....

I love the FCS but everyone on this board knows that athletics (mainly football) will grow a school and community faster than anything else. Going to FBS (any level) means more exposure which means more money which means a growing school both athletically and academically, which means a growing and thriving community.

Going FBS means a lot more to GSU than just athletics and I can probably vouch for Appy on this too.

While I agree, a thriving athletic department, spurred by football, is a key driver in the growth and expansion of a university (community benefits), to simply say participation at the FBS level, regardless of position in the hierarchy, guarantees more institutional exposure, leading to robust growth is absurd. I can name you several examples where this is not the case, or at the very least, hard to backup with the facts. ULM and Lousiana Tech were both I-AA at one time, and I would argue neither program or institution is appreciably better off today as a direct result of FBS football than they were 20-25 years ago. I would imagine you could say the same for Idaho and Buffalo and the jury is still out on Marshall.

Don't confuse my comments as meaning I think those programs made a mistake, or would be better off in FCS, but it's hard to argue the move up has led any of them to the promised land.

[ASUMountaineer]

First of all, as you correctly stated, it was my opinion. Secondly, the Armed Forces Bowl features two 6-6 teams (Rice & Air Force) at a payout of $600,000; New Mexico Bowl features two 7-5 teams with a payout of $456,250 ... the Pointsettia Bowl has a 7-5 BYU team with a payout of $500,000 ... the Hawaii Bowl features a 6-6 SMU team with a payout of $650,000 ... the Little Caesar's Pizza Bowl pits 6-6 CMU vs 7-5 WKU at $750,000 ... the GoDaddy.com bowl is a good matchup between 9-3 Ark State and 11-2 Kent State but the payout is only $750,000 ... and there's the New Orleans Bowl with 8-4 ULL, 8-4 ECU at a payout of $500,000, the Beef O'Brady's Bowl at $537,500 with 9-3 Ball State and 9-4 UCF.

Maybe "small" isn't the term you would use, but in comparison to the BCS, secondary New Year's bowls, and even the third tier bowls, they are indeed small. Pardon me for preferring the FCS and playoffs over such an arrangement. I don't consider the playoff small, because I don't think there's anything "small" about competing for a national championship vs worthy competition among our peers. There's no price tag for that IMO.

As for ASU, like I said several times already, I don't have an issue with them wanting to make a move ... the numbers are obviously there to support it and the fan base appears to want it. Happy Trails!

Great info. Proves nothing, but great nonetheless. BTW, I was comparing the two options available for ASU: non-AQ FBS vs. FCS. Comparing either to the BCS is irrelevant. A comparison of "small" FBS bowls vs. FCS playoffs lays out a clear picture that the playoffs are "smaller"--whether you view it that way or not. Again, the point isn't to bash the FCS, it's about what's best for a particular institution.

There is nothing wrong with fans favoring a particular path for their school. I never suggested your were wrong in favoring FCS, but just that your reasons may not be applicable to ASU's situation. Like I said, I love the FCS, but ASU's feasibility committee has determined that the best move for ASU is FBS. I have to trust their recommendation as they have access to a lot more data than we do.

[lionsrking2]

A comparison of "small" FBS bowls vs. FCS playoffs lays out a clear picture that the playoffs are "smaller"--whether you view it that way or not. Again, the point isn't to bash the FCS, it's about what's best for a particular institution.

There is nothing wrong with fans favoring a particular path for their school. I'm not sure why you care so much to post in this thread about the Sun Belt bowls, but to each their own.

Not sure why I care either, but apparently I do. But like I said, Happy Trails to ASU. Hope you guys become BCS or Playoff busters, expand your stadium to 50K+ and fill it up each and every Saturday.

[MplsBison]

Winning a minor bowl has the same effect

I don't claim that winning a minor bowl game is better than winning the I-AA national championship.

The point I'm making - which is the correct point, as your post confirms it - is that winning the I-AA national championship is no better than winning a minor bowl game!

This is a simple fact. And the fact that both of those things get covered the same on ESPN, regardless which of the several minor bowl games you go to, also confirms that.

[MplsBison]

Its a valid point. Would love to see App or GSU in a national playoff in 1-A. Odds are low, but things can change.

Things are changing.

A selection committee over a formula is a tectonic shift.
A four team playoff over a simple 1 v 2 game is a tectonic shift.


Any team from the 'group of five' of the lower conferences that goes undefeated, beats at least one decent or better team from a marquee conference and wins their conf championship game **WILL** be ranked in the top four by the selection committee. This is a simple fact.

[Franks Tanks]

Things are changing.

A selection committee over a formula is a tectonic shift.
A four team playoff over a simple 1 v 2 game is a tectonic shift.


Any team from the 'group of five' of the lower conferences that goes undefeated, beats at least one decent or better team from a marquee conference and wins their conf championship game **WILL** be ranked in the top four by the selection committee. This is a simple fact.


I don't believe that is true. Are you telling me a 12-0 Northern Illinois with a win over Purdue will be guaranteed a spot over say 12-1 Florida who loses to #1 LSU in the SEC Championsip game? I believe they will have access to the playoff, but will not be guaranteed anything.

[lionsrking2]

I don't claim that winning a minor bowl game is better than winning the I-AA national championship.

The point I'm making - which is the correct point, as your post confirms it - is that winning the I-AA national championship is no better than winning a minor bowl game!



Which is "better" is a matter of preference, priorities, or opinion ... my priority and preference would be winning an FCS National Championship over a Bowl game (unless a BCS Bowl), and I wouldn't care if the game was on ESPN, CBS, NBC, CNBC, The Food Network or your local access station ... but that's just me.

[MplsBison]

Which is "better" is a matter of preference, priorities, or opinion ... my priority and preference would be winning an FCS National Championship over a Bowl game (unless a BCS Bowl), and I wouldn't care if the game was on ESPN, CBS, NBC, CNBC, The Food Network or your local access station ... but that's just me.

Then drop down to DII. You have a much better chance at winning the national championship at that division.

Not the same thing, right? Why? Because it's DII....

Do you see where I'm going here?

[MplsBison]

I don't believe that is true. Are you telling me a 12-0 Northern Illinois with a win over Purdue will be guaranteed a spot over say 12-1 Florida who loses to #1 LSU in the SEC Championsip game? I believe they will have access to the playoff, but will not be guaranteed anything.

Ok, fair enough.

Maybe it takes three wins over marquee conference teams and one of them having to be a pretty good team.


My point is that it went from *impossible* for a group of five team to make the BCS championship bowl (today's system) to *possible* for a group of five team to make the four team I-A playoff (tomorrow's system).

That's a tectonic shift.

[ASUMountaineer]

Not sure why I care either, but apparently I do. But like I said, Happy Trails to ASU. Hope you guys become BCS or Playoff busters, expand your stadium to 50K+ and fill it up each and every Saturday.

xbeerchugx

[lionsrking2]

Then drop down to DII. You have a much better chance at winning the national championship at that division.

Not the same thing, right? Why? Because it's DII....

Do you see where I'm going here?

If I felt our overall athletics department would be better served at the D-II level, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we have a strong baseball program that is competitive at the D-I level, we're building in football at the FCS level, and we've been competitive in golf and track. FCS football is the appropriate level for our program.

[Franks Tanks]

Ok, fair enough.

Maybe it takes three wins over marquee conference teams and one of them having to be a pretty good team.


My point is that it went from *impossible* for a group of five team to make the BCS championship bowl (today's system) to *possible* for a group of five team to make the four team I-A playoff (tomorrow's system).

That's a tectonic shift.


Agreed. Boise and maybe TCU would've made the 4 team playoff it it existed over the last few years.

[MplsBison]

If I felt our overall athletics department would be better served at the D-II level, I wouldn't have a problem with it. But we have a strong baseball program that is competitive at the D-I level, we're building in football at the FCS level, and we've been competitive in golf and track. FCS football is the appropriate level for our program.

In regards to football, your previous post placed critical emphasis on winning national championships.

So let's go hypothetical: the NCAA allows schools to have DI non-football and DII football.

Then back to my question: since SELA would have a much greater chance at winning the DII national football championship, would you want them to move down?

[asumike83]

Agreed. Boise and maybe TCU would've made the 4 team playoff it it existed over the last few years.

Excellent point. Of course, Boise is the exception and not the rule but if this system were in place previously, an FCS move-up would have played for the FBS title at least once.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Agreed. Boise and maybe TCU would've made the 4 team playoff it it existed over the last few years.

This is where I disagree. A bunch of old white men would have gone into a room and shut both Boise and TCU out. There will be no "formula" to guarantee inclusion from the so-called minor conferences.

[Skjellyfetti]

This is where I disagree. A bunch of old white men would have gone into a room and shut both Boise and TCU out. There will be no "formula" to guarantee inclusion from the so-called minor conferences.

Kinda like Lehigh getting shut out of the playoffs, eh?

[lionsrking2]

In regards to football, your previous post placed critical emphasis on winning national championships.

So let's go hypothetical: the NCAA allows schools to have DI non-football and DII football.

Then back to my question: since SELA would have a much greater chance at winning the DII national football championship, would you want them to move down?

I agree our chances at a NC would greater in D-II, but they're certainly not impossible in FCS and a drop to D-II would mean a drop by all of our athletics programs. We still have a ways to go in building our football program but I'm confident we'll make our first playoff appearance in the next year or two. But the point remains, I much prefer a playoff system with an opportunity to win a NC vs playing in any bowl game, short of a BCS Bowl ... you may feel differently, which is quite okay with me.

[Saint3333]

Kinda like Lehigh getting shut out of the playoffs, eh?

Bazinga!

[Lehigh'98]

Bazinga!

What the hell does this have to do with anything. Just taking a shot at our posters?

[cbarrier90]

What the hell does this have to do with anything. Just taking a shot at our posters?

Taking a shot at the hypocrisy. The irony is that a bunch of old men went into a room, looked at Lehigh's record, and shut them out of the playoffs just like they do when it comes to the BCS.

But go ahead, continue fighting the fight, I suppose...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Taking a shot at the hypocrisy. The irony is that a bunch of old men went into a room, looked at Lehigh's record, and shut them out of the playoffs just like they do when it comes to the BCS.

But go ahead, continue fighting the fight, I suppose...

Evidently irony has not reached Boone yet.

I'm at a loss as to how my comment was ironic, or hypocritical... that the guys who run the BCS will continue to shut out the smaller FBS conferences, just like they've been doing since the dawn of time. Well before Lehigh was shut out with a 10-1 record - the first time an at-large 10-1 team from an autobid conference since 1997 was shut out, and the first time an at-large team 10-1 team from an autobid conference was passed over for multiple 7 D-I teams from other conferences, but I digress - I have been saying that the BCS formula served a critical function, which is that it essentially guarantees that a 11-1 TCU or a 12-0 Boise State gets into a major bowl.

With the plus-one playoff, the commissioners of the Big Four are no longer constrained by that formula. Boise goes 12-1? Tough, we think 10-2 Michigan State deserves it more than them - after all, that loss to Indiana was early in the season, and they did beat a tough 8-4 Wisconsin team.

People naively think that the playoffs will go from four, to eight, to sixteen. That isn't going to happen - why on earth would the SEC, who is essentially guaranteed 25%, or in some years 50% of the slots, vote to expand it? Why would the Big 10 do so? Why open it to the ACC champion, the Mountain West champion, or some 12-0 upstart?

Any similarity to the old white men that are trying to divvy up a trillion dollars on bowl revenue, and not share any of it, and the old white men who conveniently ignore the criteria they themselves have codified in their rulebook, in terms of selecting a 20 team playoff field, are purely coincidental.

[bullitt_60]

People naively think that the playoffs will go from four, to eight, to sixteen. That isn't going to happen - why on earth would the SEC, who is essentially guaranteed 25%, or in some years 50% of the slots, vote to expand it? Why would the Big 10 do so? Why open it to the ACC champion, the Mountain West champion, or some 12-0 upstart?


Mo' games, mo' money.

[bullitt_60]

Why all the hate towards my school? What exactly have we done wrong? I know this thread was created to troll for an argument, but I just don't get it. Myself and many other GSU alums/fans have been beating the FCS drum for decades. That hasn't changed and won't change but the attitude towards us here is disappointing.

[GATA_GSU]

I think people are confusing the enthusiasm that Georgia Southern and App State fans are portraying about a possible move as arrogance. I haven't seen too much trash talk against the FCS in this thread or others, rather people expressing their interest and excitement in a potential move.

That shouldn't be confused with GaState fans who basically said a big "f-you" to the entire FCS when they announced their move. Whereas GaState fans were claiming superiority over the lowly FCS, ASU and GSU fans have merely stated that they think it's time for their programs to grow.

It's also important to note that all this Sun Belt or FBS talk is still mere speculation at this point. Neither team has been formally invited so of course nothing is set in stone.

[LIONFAN07]

FBS is the right move for some GA Southern or APP State are ready. But the one common thing I see and hear with everyone when they talk of moving to FBS is we can become the next Boise. Well IMO when these Super Conferences are formed the Boise States of the world will have no seat at the table in the new BCS playoff. Boise and TCU success have ended that. There is to much money on the table and too much pressure to win at the big schools for them to run the risk of losing in a big bowl game to a NAQ school. Oklahoma and Wisconsin had to deal with that and didn't like it and wanted to not be put in that situation again. At least at this point NAQ schools can tell a recruit we can get to a BCS game with a great year. In 2014 that will be long gone. The MAC, MWC, Big East, Sun Belt, and whats left of CUSA will be just sitting there with no opportunity to get back to the glory days of NAQs.

[dbackjon]

Show me some sources with numbers?

(17,500 tickets x $100) + (400 hotels x $200) = less than $2 million of the $17 million. I find it hard they'll "be good to break even".

Unless you have some solid numbers to prove your point.

And you're also forgetting that each conference has a fund for Bowl teams to be distributed to teams.

The $17 million goes to the Conference, not the school. The NIU board had a breakdown, and direct quote from the MAC office on helping NIU financially.

http://csnbbs.com/forumdisplay.php?fid=468

[MplsBison]

This is where I disagree. A bunch of old white men would have gone into a room and shut both Boise and TCU out. There will be no "formula" to guarantee inclusion from the so-called minor conferences.

Boise, TCU, Utah, etc. would not have made the 4-team playoff in previous years. I acknowledge that they didn't do enough in the regular season.

But as I said, if a group of five team goes undefeated, beats 3 or 4 teams from marquee conferences (with at least 1 being pretty good), and wins their conference championship game - it's all but guaranteed that the committee will find a way to seed them #4.

Only way would be if there were four undefeated, marquee conference champions. Then in that case they'd have to get the top 4 seeds.

[MplsBison]

I agree our chances at a NC would greater in D-II, but they're certainly not impossible in FCS and a drop to D-II would mean a drop by all of our athletics programs. We still have a ways to go in building our football program but I'm confident we'll make our first playoff appearance in the next year or two. But the point remains, I much prefer a playoff system with an opportunity to win a NC vs playing in any bowl game, short of a BCS Bowl ... you may feel differently, which is quite okay with me.

You either didn't understand or are trying to duck the argument.

I said that SELA could remain DI in bball and baseball and then move to DII. In that scenario -> would you want SELA to move to DII?


I think you're going to try to duck the argument again, so I'll just come to the point: what good is winning the playoff championship that doesn't mean anything?

Surely, any fan of I-AA football considers the DIII and DII championships meaningless.

Well, in the same sense - the I-AA championship is meaningless relative to I-A football. And now I-A football is going to have a playoff.

[MplsBison]

Evidently irony has not reached Boone yet.

I'm at a loss as to how my comment was ironic, or hypocritical... that the guys who run the BCS will continue to shut out the smaller FBS conferences, just like they've been doing since the dawn of time. Well before Lehigh was shut out with a 10-1 record - the first time an at-large 10-1 team from an autobid conference since 1997 was shut out, and the first time an at-large team 10-1 team from an autobid conference was passed over for multiple 7 D-I teams from other conferences, but I digress - I have been saying that the BCS formula served a critical function, which is that it essentially guarantees that a 11-1 TCU or a 12-0 Boise State gets into a major bowl.

With the plus-one playoff, the commissioners of the Big Four are no longer constrained by that formula. Boise goes 12-1? Tough, we think 10-2 Michigan State deserves it more than them - after all, that loss to Indiana was early in the season, and they did beat a tough 8-4 Wisconsin team.

People naively think that the playoffs will go from four, to eight, to sixteen. That isn't going to happen - why on earth would the SEC, who is essentially guaranteed 25%, or in some years 50% of the slots, vote to expand it? Why would the Big 10 do so? Why open it to the ACC champion, the Mountain West champion, or some 12-0 upstart?

Any similarity to the old white men that are trying to divvy up a trillion dollars on bowl revenue, and not share any of it, and the old white men who conveniently ignore the criteria they themselves have codified in their rulebook, in terms of selecting a 20 team playoff field, are purely coincidental.

You forgot one thing in your analysis: the only thing that drives old white men to consensus more than pride and maintaining exclusivity of power..... is money.

Certainly the 4 team playoff isn't going to expand soon...but if the dollars are there, it will expand eventually. You can deny that fact until you're blue in the face. It just means you're a blue faced denier of facts.


The formula and there being only 2 slots in the BCS championship bowl game makes it impossible for I-A teams from the lower conferences to make it to the top.

The committee and 4 slots makes it possible.


You have it backwards.

[proasu89]

Got peak of the App State Athletic budget do you?

App already has an Athletic budget in the $17 Million dollar range. Why keep playing teams with budgets in the -10 range?


C'mon... Davidson needs some love!

Duck Favidson and their chicken s... decision to not fund football so they could load up on basketballxlolx

[lionsrking2]

You either didn't understand or are trying to duck the argument.

I said that SELA could remain DI in bball and baseball and then move to DII. In that scenario -> would you want SELA to move to DII?


I think you're going to try to duck the argument again, so I'll just come to the point: what good is winning the playoff championship that doesn't mean anything?

Surely, any fan of I-AA football considers the DIII and DII championships meaningless.

Well, in the same sense - the I-AA championship is meaningless relative to I-A football. And now I-A football is going to have a playoff.

I didn't duck any argument ... you can't play D-I football and D-II in other sports unless it's hockey or another limited sport. If you're asking me to assume a hypothetical, I would rather stay FCS, not because I think D-II is "meaningless," but I feel we can compete at the FCS level and have a reasonable chance to make the playoffs and do well. We're not there yet, but we're on the way. We would have zero chance at the BCS National Championship, therefore I would be against a move up under just about any circumstances unless it would be our only means of preserving rivalries and maintaining viable scheduling options (i.e. everybody else around us decides to move up). But I much prefer FCS and a playoff option for our program vs struggling to compete at the FBS level where our best hope would be a lower level bowl game, which is essentially meaningless. I would rather be D-II than FBS, but we're in position to reasonably support Division I athletics and FCS serves our entire program the best.

[lionsrking2]

You forgot one thing in your analysis: the only thing that drives old white men to consensus more than pride and maintaining exclusivity of power..... is money.

Certainly the 4 team playoff isn't going to expand soon...but if the dollars are there, it will expand eventually. You can deny that fact until you're blue in the face. It just means you're a blue faced denier of facts.


The formula and there being only 2 slots in the BCS championship bowl game makes it impossible for I-A teams from the lower conferences to make it to the top.

The committee and 4 slots makes it possible.


You have it backwards.

The playoffs will expand eventually but if you're not in the BCS club, or one of the few just outside the door, "you ain't gettin' in," as they say.

[Go Apps]

Wow how exciting for them!

[boogereagle]

Surely, any fan of I-AA football considers the DIII and DII championships meaningless.

Well, in the same sense - the I-AA championship is meaningless relative to I-A football. And now I-A football is going to have a playoff.

Whoa now. I'm a I-AA fan and I don't find the DIII or DII champsionships "meaningless." I am certain they mean a great deal to the schools and their communities and that alone is reason for me to respect them as an accomplishment. But on top of that, the DII and DIII playoffs offer great football, too. I've rarely seen a DII or DIII playoff game that I didn't enjoy watching.

Similarly, I find meaning and can see the importance of region and state championships at the high school level as well as Little League and rec titles.

Finally, you say that I-AA championships are meaningless to IA football, so why play a meaningless championship? Using that awkward logic, the IA title is meaningless compared to the NFL championship, so what good is winning a championship (in this case IA) that doesn't mean anything?

[TheRevSFA]

The problem with bowls..not just BCS, is that there are too many mediocre teams in the post season.

There doesn't need to be 30 bowls. There's no need for 6-6 teams to play in the post season.

All that drives that is money for sponsorship, not money that goes to the schools themselves.

[asumike83]

The problem with bowls..not just BCS, is that there are too many mediocre teams in the post season.

There doesn't need to be 30 bowls. There's no need for 6-6 teams to play in the post season.

All that drives that is money for sponsorship, not money that goes to the schools themselves.

I don't disagree with that at all. If App does go FBS and has a 6-6 season, I can tell you that I won't feel satisfied about going to a bowl.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For the record, only one of the four Sun Belt bowls has a .500 team competing in it, and that's the Little Caesar's Bowl (with local team 6-6 Central Michigan). That's the one that will be a near-certain money loser for Western Kentucky.

The others feature 8-4 teams but no major conference schools.

[MplsBison]

I didn't duck any argument ... you can't play D-I football and D-II in other sports unless it's hockey or another limited sport. If you're asking me to assume a hypothetical, I would rather stay FCS, not because I think D-II is "meaningless," but I feel we can compete at the FCS level and have a reasonable chance to make the playoffs and do well. We're not there yet, but we're on the way. We would have zero chance at the BCS National Championship, therefore I would be against a move up under just about any circumstances unless it would be our only means of preserving rivalries and maintaining viable scheduling options (i.e. everybody else around us decides to move up). But I much prefer FCS and a playoff option for our program vs struggling to compete at the FBS level where our best hope would be a lower level bowl game, which is essentially meaningless. I would rather be D-II than FBS, but we're in position to reasonably support Division I athletics and FCS serves our entire program the best.

You don't want to move to I-A because you have no chance at winning a national championship.

You want to be in I-AA because you think you have a shot at winning a national championship.



So answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer this whole time: what is magical about winning a national championship at anything below the highest level of the sport?

[MplsBison]

The playoffs will expand eventually but if you're not in the BCS club, or one of the few just outside the door, "you ain't gettin' in," as they say.

Wrong. The additional slots and the selection committee make it possible for non-marquee conference teams to make the playoff.

[boogereagle]

You don't want to move to I-A because you have no chance at winning a national championship.

You want to be in I-AA because you think you have a shot at winning a national championship.



So answer the questions I've been trying to get you to answer this whole time: what is magical about winning a national championship at anything below the highest level of the sport?

So you mean the NFL, right? Technically, that is the highest level.

[MplsBison]

Whoa now. I'm a I-AA fan and I don't find the DIII or DII champsionships "meaningless." I am certain they mean a great deal to the schools and their communities and that alone is reason for me to respect them as an accomplishment. But on top of that, the DII and DIII playoffs offer great football, too. I've rarely seen a DII or DIII playoff game that I didn't enjoy watching.

Similarly, I find meaning and can see the importance of region and state championships at the high school level as well as Little League and rec titles.

Finally, you say that I-AA championships are meaningless to IA football, so why play a meaningless championship? Using that awkward logic, the IA title is meaningless compared to the NFL championship, so what good is winning a championship (in this case IA) that doesn't mean anything?

I-A football is the highest level in college football. The NFL is not college football, so that's a red herring.

Winning a "national championship" at any level lower than the highest level is meaningless to anyone outside of that specific program. Alabama is the current national champion of college football. Not NDSU, not Pittsburgh St, not Wisc-Whitewater.

[MplsBison]

So you mean the NFL, right? Technically, that is the highest level.

No it's not. Your argument is a logical fallacy called a red herring.

[URMite]

Winning a "national championship" at any level lower than the highest level is meaningless to anyone outside of that specific program. Alabama is the current national champion of college football. Not NDSU, not Pittsburgh St, not Wisc-Whitewater.

In my opinion, Alabama is the current national champion of Semi-Pro football. 20 years ago, I thought differently but so much about the game at that level has changed. That's why I do see FCS as the top level of College football. I rarely even watch more than 10 FBS games a year anymore.

[MplsBison]

In my opinion, Alabama is the current national champion of Semi-Pro football. 20 years ago, I thought differently but so much about the game at that level has changed. That's why I do see FCS as the top level of College football. I rarely even watch more than 10 FBS games a year anymore.

Likewise, DIII is the only true college football anymore. Those are actual student-athletes who play a game - representing their academic institutions of higher learning. Not being paid to play football!

Options are nice, but everyone has them.


Therefore we must stick to the actual definitions. NCAA is college football. I-A is the top level of college football.

[boogereagle]

I-A football is the highest level in college football. The NFL is not college football, so that's a red herring.

Winning a "national championship" at any level lower than the highest level is meaningless to anyone outside of that specific program. Alabama is the current national champion of college football. Not NDSU, not Pittsburgh St, not Wisc-Whitewater.

No.
If you are going to assign levels of importance to championships won and give more to one because it is supposedly a 'higher level,' then you can't overlook the fact that there is a level higher than the one you want to place at the top.
I didn't put the structure in place, you did.

So, you can say Alabama won at the highest level of college football, but you cannot say it is the champion of college football and that all other championships within college football are meaningful only to those schools that won them. For one thing, that's impossible to know.

By claiming there are levels, you acknowledge there is a higher level than college football, whether you want to accept it or not. Again, this is using your argument.

In short, because you claim one "level" is better than another, then you can't ignore the NFL since it is A. the same game. B) a higher level.

Thus, in your way of assinging importance to championships, then the Super Bowl is the only championship that matters to anyone outside its fan base. That's not a red herring. It's simply the way it is.

It's also presumptious to define one title as the more important and the others to be "meaningless to anyone outside of that specific program." Don't you think?

[clenz]

Not a single Sun Belt team faces a BCS-level team in the "postseason".

None of these bowls will balance the budgets of their athletic departments.

The bowls are nice postseason awards for the players, who get to play in the postseason, get a little swag, and get an opportunity to suit up one last time, probably in a warm-weather place (though not Western Kentucky, who instead travels to Michigan). But they are hardly the ticket to balancing the budgets, or getting "exposure" by playing BCS-level competition.Most schools LOSE MONEY ON THE PLAYOFFS!

[MplsBison]

No.
If you are going to assign levels of importance to championships won and give more to one because it is supposedly a 'higher level,' then you can't overlook the fact that there is a level higher than the one you want to place at the top.
I didn't put the structure in place, you did.

So, you can say Alabama won at the highest level of college football, but you cannot say it is the champion of college football and that all other championships within college football are meaningful only to those schools that won them. For one thing, that's impossible to know.

By claiming there are levels, you acknowledge there is a higher level than college football, whether you want to accept it or not. Again, this is using your argument.

In short, because you claim one "level" is better than another, then you can't ignore the NFL since it is A. the same game. B) a higher level.

Thus, in your way of assinging importance to championships, then the Super Bowl is the only championship that matters to anyone outside its fan base. That's not a red herring. It's simply the way it is.

It's also presumptious to define one title as the more important and the others to be "meaningless to anyone outside of that specific program." Don't you think?

I didn't presume anything. It's self-evident.

The NFL and college football are two entirely separate, incomparable entities. If that's all you can do, then you're admitting that you lost the argument.


College football has levels, the highest level being I-A and it's self-evident that only the championship of the highest level matters to people outside of fans of specific teams.

Therefore, winning the I-AA national championship and winning a low-tier bowl game are of equal relevance. Neither is more important or better than the other, for just the same exact reason that I-AA fans on this board wouldn't consider the DII champion to be of any more relevance than the I-AA champion.


Voila! I just annihilated the only argument that I-AA fans have for remaining in I-AA "we want to be able to win a national championship!"

[lionsrking2]

You don't want to move to I-A because you have no chance at winning a national championship.

You want to be in I-AA because you think you have a shot at winning a national championship.



So answer the question I've been trying to get you to answer this whole time: what is magical about winning a national championship at anything below the highest level of the sport?

If we had 30K+ enrollment, a budget well north of 50 million dollars, and averaged over 70K fans per game, there's no doubt I would consider winning a NC below the FBS level "meaningless," as it would relate to our hypothetical situation; however, I would consider lower level playoff championships highly relevant for schools competing at those levels.

Let me ask you a question: Do you feel North Dakota State's National Championships in Division II were meaningless? Do you feel last year's FCS National Championship was meaningless? If the answer is yes, I suppose you would be happier with an Idaho Potato Bowl trophy in your showcase over anything you've accomplished to date.xdontknowx

[boogereagle]

I didn't presume anything. It's self-evident.

The NFL and college football are two entirely separate, incomparable entities. If that's all you can do, then you're admitting that you lost the argument.


College football has levels, the highest level being I-A and it's self-evident that only the championship of the highest level matters to people outside of fans of specific teams.



Well, no. And this is one silly argument -- if for no other reason than certainly fans of one thing are going to ascribe more importance to it than fans of another.

However, I will give it one more whack before I get back to work.

You can argue this to the cows come home, but if you are going to assign importance to "levels," then the fact is there is a higher level of football than the BCS under the very argument you make. It is the NFL.

They are not two entirely seprate, incomparable entities. They are merely different levels of the same sport. NFL, BCS, FBS, I-AA, II, III, NAIA, prep, middle school rec ...

Therefore, again using your argument, the BCS championship is relevant and meaningful only to those teams or fans who compete for it. It is nothing more nor less than the championship at one level of football.

By extension, if "only the championship of the highest level matters to people outside of fans of specific teams," to use your phrase, then the only championship that matters is the one at the highest level, not the highest level of your choosing.

In football, that's the Super Bowl. It is thus the most relevant and meaningful, period.

If you want to say the BCS championship is more watched than the I-AA title, I can't disagree. Do more folks care about it than I-AA? Undoubtedly. It's more watched. It's bigger.
But popularity is often only a measure of itself. It means only that a thing is popular. Saying something is more popular makes it no more relevant or more meaningful than something else. That's what I think you're trying to suggest. I.e., BCS more popular, therefore more important, therefore better.

That's simply not the case.

Fun reading your stuff, though.

[lionsrking2]

Well, no. And this is one silly argument -- if for no other reason than certainly fans of one thing are going to ascribe more importance to it than fans of another.

However, I will give it one more whack before I get back to work.

You can argue this to the cows come home, but if you are going to assign importance to "levels," then the fact is there is a higher level of football than the BCS under the very argument you make. It is the NFL.

They are not two entirely seprate, incomparable entities. They are merely different levels of the same sport. NFL, BCS, FBS, I-AA, II, III, NAIA, prep, middle school rec ...

Therefore, again using your argument, the BCS championship is relevant and meaningful only to those teams or fans who compete for it. It is nothing more nor less than the championship at one level of football.

By extension, if "only the championship of the highest level matters to people outside of fans of specific teams," to use your phrase, then the only championship that matters is the one at the highest level, not the highest level of your choosing.

In football, that's the Super Bowl. It is thus the most relevant and meaningful, period.

If you want to say the BCS championship is more watched than the I-AA title, I can't disagree. Do more folks care about it than I-AA? Undoubtedly. It's more watched. It's bigger.
But popularity is often only a measure of itself. It means only that a thing is popular. Saying something is more popular makes it no more relevant or more meaningful than something else. That's what I think you're trying to suggest. I.e., BCS more popular, therefore more important, therefore better.

That's simply not the case.

Fun reading your stuff, though.

There are probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of football fans around the country who support multiple levels of football, almost with equal passion in a lot of instances. They support their local high school program, lower level NCAA or NAIA program, the big state school or FBS program, and if there's an NFL team nearby, they're big fans there as well. They're just as passionate when their high school teams wins a state championship as they are when Big State U wins a bowl game or NFL team goes to the playoffs. No doubt there are many one-track fans who zone out on anything below the NFL or BCS level, but I think most folks are capable of finding meaning in more than one level of football. I know I do.

[MplsBison]

If we had 30K+ enrollment, a budget well north of 50 million dollars, and averaged over 70K fans per game, there's no doubt I would consider winning a NC below the FBS level "meaningless," as it would relate to our hypothetical situation; however, I would consider lower level playoff championships highly relevant for schools competing at those levels.

Let me ask you a question: Do you feel North Dakota State's National Championships in Division II were meaningless? Do you feel last year's FCS National Championship was meaningless? If the answer is yes, I suppose you would be happier with an Idaho Potato Bowl trophy in your showcase over anything you've accomplished to date.xdontknowx

As I proved, the I-AA national championship is no more or less meaningful than any I-A bowl game title. Therefore, the argument "we should stay I-AA so we can still win a national championship" is null and void.

You've ducked the question three times now, because you know you don't have an answer. If SELA was invited to CUSA tomorrow, why would the ability to win a I-AA national championship be a valid reason for staying?

[MplsBison]

Well, no. And this is one silly argument -- if for no other reason than certainly fans of one thing are going to ascribe more importance to it than fans of another.

However, I will give it one more whack before I get back to work.

You can argue this to the cows come home, but if you are going to assign importance to "levels," then the fact is there is a higher level of football than the BCS under the very argument you make. It is the NFL.

They are not two entirely seprate, incomparable entities. They are merely different levels of the same sport. NFL, BCS, FBS, I-AA, II, III, NAIA, prep, middle school rec ...

Therefore, again using your argument, the BCS championship is relevant and meaningful only to those teams or fans who compete for it. It is nothing more nor less than the championship at one level of football.

By extension, if "only the championship of the highest level matters to people outside of fans of specific teams," to use your phrase, then the only championship that matters is the one at the highest level, not the highest level of your choosing.

In football, that's the Super Bowl. It is thus the most relevant and meaningful, period.

If you want to say the BCS championship is more watched than the I-AA title, I can't disagree. Do more folks care about it than I-AA? Undoubtedly. It's more watched. It's bigger.
But popularity is often only a measure of itself. It means only that a thing is popular. Saying something is more popular makes it no more relevant or more meaningful than something else. That's what I think you're trying to suggest. I.e., BCS more popular, therefore more important, therefore better.

That's simply not the case.

Fun reading your stuff, though.

You might as well be trying to argue that the olympics are the only meaningful sporting event.

It's nonsense. The NFL and college football are completely separate entities. I've made the correct argument, which you know you have no answer for - so you're trying to make a specious, red herring argument. An AGS special.

No one outside the specific program cares about the I-AA national championship, the DII national championship or the DIII national championship. Everyone cares about the I-A national championship.

That's why it's the only championship that matters in college football. And that's why the I-AA national championship is not more or less important than any I-A bowl game title.

[lionsrking2]

As I proved, the I-AA national championship is no more or less meaningful than any I-A bowl game title. Therefore, the argument "we should stay I-AA so we can still win a national championship" is null and void.

You've ducked the question three times now, because you know you don't have an answer. If SELA was invited to CUSA tomorrow, why would the ability to win a I-AA national championship be a valid reason for staying?

What in the world are you talking about? Who's ducked a question? Perhaps we're speaking different languages, but I've been about as clear as I can be as to where I stand. If you feel differently, that's fine.

The only thing you've proven is that you don't really care whether the Bison win or lose this weekend since they're not playing in a bowl game. Why are you even on this board? Why not take a break and come back when there's really something juicy to talk about ... like a much anticipated date in the Little Caeser's Pizza Bowl. Nothing like a little "Pizza, Pizza" to get the juices flowing.

[LIONFAN07]

Wrong. The additional slots and the selection committee make it possible for non-marquee conference teams to make the playoff.

Zero chance of this happening. They made the cake so they want all the pieces. They don't want the cellar dwellers of FBS getting even a corner piece of their cake.

All this talk about the highest levels of football. So in High School unless you win the highest classification's State Title it isn't respected. The best teams in the state of Louisiana play in 2A.

One of my good friends went to UL Lafayette and as excited as he was about his team going to the New Orleans Bowl last year he still told me after "well that was it the best we can do". He is a Cajun fan in the small minority in their fan base who would like his team to be in FCS playing for National Titles when his team has a good team. Not just settling for the R&L Carriers New Orleans Bowl against 6-6 CUSA team.

[MplsBison]

What in the world are you talking about? Who's ducked a question? Perhaps we're speaking different languages, but I've been about as clear as I can be as to where I stand. If you feel differently, that's fine.

The only thing you've proven is that you don't really care whether the Bison win or lose this weekend since they're not playing in a bowl game. Why are you even on this board? Why not take a break and come back when there's really something juicy to talk about ... like a much anticipated date in the Little Caeser's Pizza Bowl. Nothing like a little "Pizza, Pizza" to get the juices flowing.

Of course I want NDSU to win and I've indicated nothing even remotely to the contrary. You're out and out lying now.

For the 18th time: winning the I-AA national championship is no more or less important than winning any low-tier bowl game. That's the point I've proven and which you can't comprehend. Not my problem.

[MplsBison]

Zero chance of this happening. They made the cake so they want all the pieces. They don't want the cellar dwellers of FBS getting even a corner piece of their cake.

All this talk about the highest levels of football. So in High School unless you win the highest classification's State Title it isn't respected. The best teams in the state of Louisiana play in 2A.

One of my good friends went to UL Lafayette and as excited as he was about his team going to the New Orleans Bowl last year he still told me after "well that was it the best we can do". He is a Cajun fan in the small minority in their fan base who would like his team to be in FCS playing for National Titles when his team has a good team. Not just settling for the R&L Carriers New Orleans Bowl against 6-6 CUSA team.

You're wrong about there being zero chance of it happening and you'll be proven wrong in the coming years. I don't know how else to convince you. wait and see, I guess.

[TheRevSFA]

Of course I want NDSU to win and I've indicated nothing even remotely to the contrary. You're out and out lying now.

For the 18th time: winning the I-AA national championship is no more or less important than winning any low-tier bowl game. That's the point I've proven and which you can't comprehend. Not my problem.

Winning the national championship at FCS level means you are the best at your level and your peers.

Winning a low-tier FBS bowl means?

[boogereagle]

You might as well be trying to argue that the olympics are the only meaningful sporting event.

It's nonsense. The NFL and college football are completely separate entities. I've made the correct argument, which you know you have no answer for - so you're trying to make a specious, red herring argument. An AGS special.

No one outside the specific program cares about the I-AA national championship, the DII national championship or the DIII national championship. Everyone cares about the I-A national championship.That's why it's the only championship that matters in college football. And that's why the I-AA national championship is not more or less important than any I-A bowl game title.

Well, OK, if you insist. I don't argue with stumps or people who tell me how I ought to think.

I will, however, end my participation in this exercise in weirdness by informing you I know several people in my immediate family who don't care about the IA title. They don't give a hoot about it, in fact. Not even a bit of a damn. They are my wife, my mom, my sister, my niece, my nephew, and the dogs.

So, clearly, not everyone (as you claim) cares about the IA championship.

One suggestion: While you may have polled everyone else on the planet to come up with data that allows you to assert such an absurdity, you did not question my family members on this ... so it might be a good idea to do your homework before making a similar mistake in future.

Thanks. Enjoy reading your stuff.



Cheers.

[LIONFAN07]

You're wrong about there being zero chance of it happening and you'll be proven wrong in the coming years. I don't know how else to convince you. wait and see, I guess.

Yes you are right we will see in the years to come. But what makes you think they will? So a one lose SEC, or Big ten team not in the op 4 gets left out because they held a spot open for SMU or South Florida. No chance. Why do you think they are going to knock the Big East out of the picture. Why are good football playing Big east schools trying to get out of the conference as fast as they can. Becasue they know the money and the playoff chances will come from the bigger leagues.

[clenz]

Winning the national championship at FCS level means you are the best at your level and your peers.

Winning a low-tier FBS bowl means?
winning an FCS championship means a lot to the fans of the school....and no ****ing one else.

Wining a lower tier bowl means a lot to the fans of the school....and no ****ing one else.



Remember, I'll say it again, the vast majority of schools lose a decent chunk of change during the playoffs.

[lionsrking2]

winning an FCS championship means a lot to the fans of the school....and no ****ing one else.

Wining a lower tier bowl means a lot to the fans of the school....and no ****ing one else.



Remember, I'll say it again, the vast majority of schools lose a decent chunk of change during the playoffs.


I disagree with the premise of your statement. While smaller in scale than the BCS, FCS, D2 and D3 playoffs and championships are national in scope and mean a lot to the fan bases who follow schools in those divisions. Folks who frequent this board, who may support a Big Sky school or a CAA school, care about what Sam Houston, UCA, etc. is doing in the SLC, NDSU, UNI or SDSU in the MVC or what an App State or GSU is doing in the So-Con ... they follow the regular season to see if there's a new star on the horizon, who's still in contention for the playoffs and who will be on the outside looking in when the selections are announced.

On the flipside, once an FBS/BCS school has a loss or two, most of the nation tunes out on those institutions unless they have a great player worth following or they upset someone ... and nobody gives a rat's *** about anybody outside of the BCS unless it's a rare BCS buster like a Boise State who is still undefeated, which speaks to the first part of this sentence. They're the SWACs, Ivy's, and Pioneer's of the FBS.

[MplsBison]

Winning the national championship at FCS level means you are the best at your level and your peers.

Winning a low-tier FBS bowl means?

Same old argument: what good is being the best at your level when no one cares about your level?

Winning a low-tier bowl game may not mean you're the best at that level, but what does it say about the I-AA level when two of its best brands are ready to jump ship in favor of low-tier bowl games??

[MplsBison]

Well, OK, if you insist. I don't argue with stumps or people who tell me how I ought to think.

I will, however, end my participation in this exercise in weirdness by informing you I know several people in my immediate family who don't care about the IA title. They don't give a hoot about it, in fact. Not even a bit of a damn. They are my wife, my mom, my sister, my niece, my nephew, and the dogs.

So, clearly, not everyone (as you claim) cares about the IA championship.

One suggestion: While you may have polled everyone else on the planet to come up with data that allows you to assert such an absurdity, you did not question my family members on this ... so it might be a good idea to do your homework before making a similar mistake in future.

Thanks. Enjoy reading your stuff.



Cheers.

Yep, you got me. When I said "everyone" I was so very obviously meaning -- literally every living soul on the planet. Domesticated animals included!!

Oh weird, an AGS poster resorts to being obtuse to back out of an argument they lost in order to make it look like they didn't lose.

[MplsBison]

Yes you are right we will see in the years to come. But what makes you think they will? So a one lose SEC, or Big ten team not in the op 4 gets left out because they held a spot open for SMU or South Florida. No chance. Why do you think they are going to knock the Big East out of the picture. Why are good football playing Big east schools trying to get out of the conference as fast as they can. Becasue they know the money and the playoff chances will come from the bigger leagues.

It's a very, very easy explanation, in fact. Here goes: why do people care about the rounds of 64 and 32 of March Madness? Upsets and Cinderella stories.

If the NCAA men's bball post season tournament was just the top 16 big schools in the nation, it would be as uninteresting and unwatched as regular season college bball.

OK - with me so far?


So now we have 4 slots instead of 2. With 2 slots, you have to play the two biggest, best teams in the country. Have to. With 4 slots, you can sneak a Cinderella into the 4th seed and give them a shot at #1, given that you're giving the three biggest, best teams in the country a chance to win the title.

Therefore, any group of five team that goes undefeated, playing 3 or 4 marquee conference teams non-conference with one or two of them being significant wins and winning their conference championship game is going to get that 4th seed.

It's far, FAR too compelling of a story line not to.


Not convinced? Here's proof: NIU this season.


Kent State was ranked 17 and UCLA was 16 going into last week. UCLA lost and if Kent St won they'd get that 16th slot for sure and therefore get a BCS bowl shot. But they lost to NIU.

Lo and behold...NIU not only leapfrogs to that 16 spot...they actually go one more up to 15! NIU is the 15th best team in the nation??? B.S.

But the story was far too compelling. Give a MAC team the chance to win a BCS bowl game, they said. So they made it so. Forced it. (perhaps to make up for the Miami and Marshall teams that got screwed in the past?)

[MplsBison]

I disagree with the premise of your statement. While smaller in scale than the BCS, FCS, D2 and D3 playoffs and championships are national in scope and mean a lot to the fan bases who follow schools in those divisions. Folks who frequent this board, who may support a Big Sky school or a CAA school, care about what Sam Houston, UCA, etc. is doing in the SLC, NDSU, UNI or SDSU in the MVC or what an App State or GSU is doing in the So-Con ... they follow the regular season to see if there's a new star on the horizon, who's still in contention for the playoffs and who will be on the outside looking in when the selections are announced.

On the flipside, once an FBS/BCS school has a loss or two, most of the nation tunes out on those institutions unless they have a great player worth following or they upset someone ... and nobody gives a rat's *** about anybody outside of the BCS unless it's a rare BCS buster like a Boise State who is still undefeated, which speaks to the first part of this sentence. They're the SWACs, Ivy's, and Pioneer's of the FBS.

Completely missed the point.

Everyone pays attention to "I-A football" - not a particular team (unless you're an alumni of that school). The story lines of the major teams in college football are compelling entertainment unto themselves.

DI-AA, DII and DIII football is just ... football. Some purists would enjoy it and alumni of the schools enjoy it, but most people don't care.

[lionsrking2]

Completely missed the point.

Everyone pays attention to "I-A football" - not a particular team (unless you're an alumni of that school). The story lines of the major teams in college football are compelling entertainment unto themselves.

DI-AA, DII and DIII football is just ... football. Some purists would enjoy it and alumni of the schools enjoy it, but most people don't care.

No, everyone doesn't pay attention to "I-A football." I agree most could tell you who's in the hunt for the BCS bowls, but outside of the BCS conferences, and whatever Cinderella story is out there in a given year, it's a mixed bag at best.

And one thing we do agree on, FCS, D2 and D3 is "just football" which most purists find quite refreshing. It's kinda sad that you don't, then again, that's your opinion and your prerogative ... again, I ask you, why do you call yourself a Bison fan and why is your post count so high if FCS is so irrelevant?

[MplsBison]

No, everyone doesn't pay attention to "I-A football." I agree most could tell you who's in the hunt for the BCS bowls, but outside of the BCS conferences, and whatever Cinderella story is out there in a given year, it's a mixed bag at best.

And one thing we do agree on, FCS, D2 and D3 is "just football" which most purists find quite refreshing. It's kinda sad that you don't, then again, that's your opinion and your prerogative ... again, I ask you, why do you call yourself a Bison fan and why is your post count so high if FCS is so irrelevant?

Already answered that for you. Might've been in another thread, can't remember.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Kent State was ranked 17 and UCLA was 16 going into last week. UCLA lost and if Kent St won they'd get that 16th slot for sure and therefore get a BCS bowl shot. But they lost to NIU.

Lo and behold...NIU not only leapfrogs to that 16 spot...they actually go one more up to 15! NIU is the 15th best team in the nation??? B.S.

But the story was far too compelling. Give a MAC team the chance to win a BCS bowl game, they said. So they made it so. Forced it. (perhaps to make up for the Miami and Marshall teams that got screwed in the past?)

They forced NIU to make the BCS??? BWAH HAH HAHA HAHAH HAHAHA HAHAHAH

http://www.rrstar.com/blogs/matttrowbridge/x1926894756/Big-12-tried-to-cheat-NIU-out-of-Orange-Bowl


Two more reasons NIU deserves to play in the Orange Bowl: Oklahoma, the team that would have gotten the last BCS at-large invitation, doesn't deserve to go, and Oklahoma's coach and his Big 12 coaching friends tried to game the system to keep NIU out. The Sooners got what they deserved.

...

Neil Hayes of the Chicago Sun-Times -- a former 1,000-yard rusher for the Rochelle Hubs -- writes about Big 12 coaches giving NIU the Orange Bowl squeeze. (USA Today, which runs the coaches poll, broke the story first). Oklahoma coach Bob Stoops, Hayes writes, voted Oklahoma No. 6 in the coaches poll and NIU No. 24. The Baylor, Iowa State and West Virginia coaches also either voted Oklahoma No. 6 or NIU No. 24. Only one coach outside the Big 12 voted Oklahoma even as high as No. 8. And only one coach outside of the Big 12 voted NIU as low as No. 24.

NIU made it in in spite of the Big XII's shenanigans. And why would the Big XII do something like this, you say? Easy - a second Big XII bowl slot would have been a payday for them all.

[slycat]

LHN's weekly cry me a river article is hilarious. He really is obsessed with FBS and Sun Belt for how much he tries to put it down.

Every fan base wants something different. What's good for Lehigh is different than Texas St or App St or Montana or Campbell.

[MplsBison]

They forced NIU to make the BCS??? BWAH HAH HAHA HAHAH HAHAHA HAHAHAH

http://www.rrstar.com/blogs/matttrowbridge/x1926894756/Big-12-tried-to-cheat-NIU-out-of-Orange-Bowl



NIU made it in in spite of the Big XII's shenanigans. And why would the Big XII do something like this, you say? Easy - a second Big XII bowl slot would have been a payday for them all.

Thanks for proving my point. And yes I was aware that a few of the Big XII coaches abused their voting privileges. This is why coaches should get no say in selecting the postseason and why they won't get that chance anymore with the selection committee.

It proves the point because despite those few flyers in the coaches poll the media was able to force what was in the best interest of the storyline of college football over the greed of a few conference presidents.

Likewise, the selection committee will do what's right for the sport over greed. I'm right, you're wrong. And you'll be proven wrong in the coming years when it happens. But you won't admit it. You're already this bitter toward I-A now, I can't imagine how deliciously bitter you'll be when a Sun Belt team earns the #4 seed. Can't wait to shove that in your face!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's amazing how Mpls turns on a dime. First, he makes the assertion that NIU's storyline was so compelling that NIU was "forced" in the BCS over Oklahoma. Then, I reference the shenanigans of the Big XII coaches, completely disproving that point. Then Mpls says "this proves why the coaches should have no say".

Of course, the BCS formula at least guaranteed access to NIU despite the best shenanigans of the Big XII. When the BCS formula goes, though, how will it be guaranteed that NIU doesn't get screwed in the future? There will be no formula - just a bunch of representatives of the big-money conferences horse-trading for money. Think NIU has a prayer then?

[clenz]

I disagree with the premise of your statement. While smaller in scale than the BCS, FCS, D2 and D3 playoffs and championships are national in scope and mean a lot to the fan bases who follow schools in those divisions. Folks who frequent this board, who may support a Big Sky school or a CAA school, care about what Sam Houston, UCA, etc. is doing in the SLC, NDSU, UNI or SDSU in the MVC or what an App State or GSU is doing in the So-Con ... they follow the regular season to see if there's a new star on the horizon, who's still in contention for the playoffs and who will be on the outside looking in when the selections are announced.

On the flipside, once an FBS/BCS school has a loss or two, most of the nation tunes out on those institutions unless they have a great player worth following or they upset someone ... and nobody gives a rat's *** about anybody outside of the BCS unless it's a rare BCS buster like a Boise State who is still undefeated, which speaks to the first part of this sentence. They're the SWACs, Ivy's, and Pioneer's of the FBS.If you really believe the FCS champion is on the same level of respect nationally as the winner of the Little Caesars Bowl you're fooling yourself.

I love FCS football, always will. The fact of the matter is the FCS doesn't mean **** to anyone except the FCS. Watch any broadcast where App State gets mentioned, they talk about their win over Michigan which is typically followed by "Many people forget that App State also won three FCS titles" and that is quickly passed over to talk about the Michigan win some more. That win did more for ASU than all of their titles combined for national respect.

[CID1990]

Oh weird, an AGS poster resorts to being obtuse to back out of an argument they lost in order to make it look like they didn't lose.

Hello Kettle? This is Pot. You're black!!

[MplsBison]

It's amazing how Mpls turns on a dime. First, he makes the assertion that NIU's storyline was so compelling that NIU was "forced" in the BCS over Oklahoma. Then, I reference the shenanigans of the Big XII coaches, completely disproving that point. Then Mpls says "this proves why the coaches should have no say".

Of course, the BCS formula at least guaranteed access to NIU despite the best shenanigans of the Big XII. When the BCS formula goes, though, how will it be guaranteed that NIU doesn't get screwed in the future? There will be no formula - just a bunch of representatives of the big-money conferences horse-trading for money. Think NIU has a prayer then?

NIU was forced into the BCS this season. Only the most obtuse person could deny that with a straight face. The MAC conference by all rights lost its Cinderella chance when #17 Kent St lost the MAC championship game. Yet, NIU vaulted up to #15.

That a few of the Big XII coaches tried to throw up a roadblock to that scenario just proves even more how much it was forced. I don't know how you can't see that, except that you're being obtuse as usual. People went out of their way to vote NIU up, in an attemp to get them to at least the #16 ranking knowing full well they'd be ranked ahead of the Big Ten and Big East champion and therefore guaranteed a BCS bowl bid. And this of course gives the media something to crow about, report on, write articles about, research, do interviews, shoot specials on, etc. etc. etc. That's what they care about, being able to sell something compelling and entertaining. They don't care about the games themselves. They care about the storylines and how the scores affect those storylines.

The games themselves are now just footnotes in the media coverage of said games. It's the coverage, the talk, the hype, the radio and TV shows that keeps the football world spinning.


Your article also proves why the current BCS formula is flawed and can never be as good as the committee. For example, if NIU was undefeated and beat Iowa this season along with Wisconsin and say Missouri. The formula wouldn't be able to get them into the top 4 even though it was the right thing to do. The committee can use common sense, see that it's what's best for the game and make it happen.

[Hammerhead]

You get a trophy in your case that is one step above a participation ribbon and the satisfaction knowing that your 2nd place MAC/BIG East team is better than the 2nd place team from the MountainWest/WAC.



Winning the national championship at FCS level means you are the best at your level and your peers.

Winning a low-tier FBS bowl means?

[MplsBison]

You get a trophy in your case that is one step above a participation ribbon and the satisfaction knowing that your 2nd place MAC/BIG East team is better than the 2nd place team from the MountainWest/WAC.

Which is as important as the I-AA national championship trophy.