Villanova Realignment [non-]News

[HailSzczur]

Maybe this is just an outsider's point of view, but I don't see it that way in either case.

Temple: they just got back into the Big East - only because other schools left. If the Big East still had Miami, VT, BC, Pitt, Cuse, WV, would Temple have been invited back? No.

They need to stay patient, keep building on the success they had in the MAC and realize that going from the MAC to CUSA II is still an upgrade, when you consider average stadium size, budgets, etc.


UConn: for many years they were just an elite bball team. They can still have exactly what they have always had, playing bball with the Big East core schools.

It's just very recently that they've tried to be a big time football school. They had the least history, so they in a sense had least earned the chance to play in the ACC. They still might get the chance if the Big Ten takes Virginia, Georgia Tech or North Carolina.

So again, I don't see a New Big East for non-football and CUSA II for football as any kind of downgrade over what they would've had if this Big East would've stayed.

Bingo. This isn't an outsiders perspective, its the truth

[MplsBison]

Personally I would like both Cincy and Xavier.....

Add Cincy and Uconn to the 7, thats 9. Xavier, Butler, St. Louis makes 12?

If they think the travel is workable, then sure that's a possibility.

Only possible kink would be if the CUSA II says no to Cincy and UConn as football-only members. But don't see how they can say no to those two and say yes to Boise, San Diego and Navy.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There had been a perception the past few years that a basketball-only league would offer little financially in the open market. The schools in the Atlantic-10, for example, currently make less than $400,000 annually in television revenue.

The Big East basketball schools make about $1.6 million annually ($26 million divided among the 16 schools), but that number was tied to strong brand names like Syracuse, Louisville and Pittsburgh. Conversations with multiple consultants and television executives about the future of a 12-team Catholic conference have yielded a range of figures. The Big East schools could easily get their current financial number and likely get $2 million annually with a new deal. At the most optimistic ceiling, the teams could get $3 million per year, although that's considered Pollyannaish. The ironic part is that by the Big East leaving its exclusive television negotiating window with ESPN and CBS this fall, it essentially opened up the basketball schools to test the market. There are multiple interested television suitors in this more competitive environment and a number of strong potential markets -- Washington, Philadelphia, New York, Chicago.

Gee, what happened to those lowball numbers from CBS Sports (a bidder for those rights) and ESPN (also a bidder for those rights)? BWAH HAHA HAHA HAH HHAH AHHA

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/#ixzz2Ex7x1Pvj

[GannonFan]

Personally I would like both Cincy and Xavier.....

Add Cincy and Uconn to the 7, thats 9. Xavier, Butler, St. Louis makes 12?

That's not bad, and probably along the lines of the best they can do. Does Xavier bolt, though, and for that case, does Butler. And where does Temple land and does them landing the b-ball team back in the A10 make it a tougher sell for those other teams to leave? Cincy and UConn would be in that league with one foot out the door just waiting for an invite somewhere else - does the new, b-ball mainly Big East want to have members that could just leave in the future like what's happened recently?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Football will never get anywhere at Temple. We'll never average more than 15k in these conferences being mentioned unless we get ND or PSU at the Linc. Given that, I think our administration needs to seriously consider shutting it down and focus our resources on basketball and our other sports.

[MplsBison]

I think the downgrade for UConn is that they wanted to stay in an all-sports, top of the line conference. They had it in the Big East before the defections and they clearly wanted in on the ACC. There's no doubting that this arrangement, no matter how it shakes out, is a less appealing option than full ACC membership would'v been.

For Temple, yes, of course their opportunity came out of the Big East becoming less than it had been, but it was still the culmination of where they wanted to be. If the big western schools aren't in the new CUSA, then I don't think that's a step up over the MAC.

Football wise, yes it still is. Look at programs like Cincy, East Carolina, South Florida, even SMU, Houston and Central Florida. No MAC teams are on their level.

Of course UConn wanted a marquee one-conference solution. The ACC would've been it and the Big East, for a time, was it. Now they can't have that unless more space opens up in the ACC.

So given what the Big East would've been, I just don't see this as any worse. But I totally get the disappointment.

[aceinthehole]

I'm sure that's likely, I was just saying that it's a huge disappointment to Temple and I'm sure UConn to be faced with that. Temple's mission for years has been to get back to Big East football, and for even longer to get into the Big East for basketball, and when that multiple decade dream finally came true, they get it yanked away from them before they can even get to the tip off. Considering all the years they had with the A10 and the better proximity of all those schools, I wouldn't be surprised if they rejoined that for all the non-football sports and then let football go wherever the winds blow (and that may very well be the new CUSA - although going back to the MAC could be a possibility if the big name western schools like Boise aren't in the new CUSA).

For UConn, though, it's just further cementing the fact that no one wants them. And you have to wonder how much Jim Calhoun and people not liking him and the academic problems they have currently have played into that. The ACC taking Louisville was akin to them basically saying no to UConn. Unlike Temple, UConn hasn't had to slum it anytime recently. It's a bigger fall for them.

Yep. Bottom line Temple is still in a better position in C-USA 2.2 then the old A-10/MAC combo. Sure, this isn't the Big East theyw ere hoping for, but it is a step up from the not too distant past.

UConn's bubble burst, plain and simple. Once a small, rural Northeast state university, they became a National powerhouse in hoops and a legit name brand. Now they get dropped down a peg or 2 and will join large public metro/regional universities in C-USA 2.2

[MplsBison]

Gee, what happened to those lowball numbers from CBS Sports (a bidder for those rights) and ESPN (also a bidder for those rights)? BWAH HAHA HAHA HAH HHAH AHHA

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/#ixzz2Ex7x1Pvj

Now what are you cackling at?

Let me guess, you read something that translated into your mind as some football team that used to be in I-AA but moved up to I-A getting screwed?

[bluehenbillk]

The only thing that can be said over this is that all parties involved, fans included, are losers in this. The Big East truly is dead.

If I'm the ACC I'm calling MSG an hour ago.

[MplsBison]

Football will never get anywhere at Temple. We'll never average more than 15k in these conferences being mentioned unless we get ND or PSU at the Linc. Given that, I think our administration needs to seriously consider shutting it down and focus our resources on basketball and our other sports.

Outside chance at getting into the ACC. A lot would have to go wrong for that conference, but not impossible.

Otherwise you're probably right after the prospects for the team in a non-marquee I-A conference. But so what? What's wrong with that?

[MplsBison]

The only thing that can be said over this is that all parties involved, fans included, are losers in this. The Big East truly is dead.

If I'm the ACC I'm calling MSG an hour ago.

You obviously mean the old football conf.

Yes, when Miami, VT and BC left it died.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Now what are you cackling at?

Let me guess, you read something that translated into your mind as some football team that used to be in I-AA but moved up to I-A getting screwed?

Now that a CYO breakoff seems to be a foregone conclusion, suddenly the TV money is 33% more than with "I-A, FBS" football as a noose around its neck.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Outside chance at getting into the ACC. A lot would have to go wrong for that conference, but not impossible.

Otherwise you're probably right after the prospects for the team in a non-marquee I-A conference. But so what? What's wrong with that?

Eventually the program will just die. We need regional, named schools to create interest in football. The Eagles will not allow us to use their stadium past 2015, I believe that's when our lease ends, if we're drawing 10-15k a game.

[MplsBison]

Yep. Bottom line Temple is still in a better position in C-USA 2.2 then the old A-10/MAC combo. Sure, this isn't the Big East theyw ere hoping for, but it is a step up from the not too distant past.

UConn's bubble burst, plain and simple. Once a small, rural Northeast state university, they became a National powerhouse in hoops and a legit name brand. Now they get dropped down a peg or 2 and will join large public metro/regional universities in C-USA 2.2

You don't think they'll throw in with the Big East core teams in non-football?

[MplsBison]

Eventually the program will just die. We need regional, named schools to create interest in football. The Eagles will not allow us to use their stadium past 2015, I believe that's when our lease ends, if we're drawing 10-15k a game.

Ok. If you can't use the Linc, then maybe that's the time to shut it down.

Until then, I say keep fighting the good fight. You made strides in the MAC, keep it going.

[MplsBison]

Now that a CYO breakoff seems to be a foregone conclusion, suddenly the TV money is 33% more than with "I-A, FBS" football as a noose around its neck.

Why is that funny?

[PantherRob82]

For selfish reason, I would like to see them take Creighton. I hope that would help push UNI towards and all sports MAC membership.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm thinking of another giant loser in this scenario: UMass. They moved up to FBS in order to impress the Big East. Now, they're stuck in the MAC in football with anemic crowds and no Big East to aspire to.

UConn, UMass, and Temple have the beginnings of an FBS conference. The trouble is the ACC has the rest of the teams that would make it interesting, all former Big East teams.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ok. If you can't use the Linc, then maybe that's the time to shut it down.

Until then, I say keep fighting the good fight. You made strides in the MAC, keep it going.

We made some strides but that has come crashing down the last 12 months. The only person I believe we've interviewed for our football opening is soon to be fired Eagles DC Tom Bowles. No one wants to come here right now and take on this disaster. The momentum that Golden built up has been pretty much lost overnight. Our attendance this year was way below expectations as was our talent level.

[HailSzczur]

Here's a wild and crazy idea that I'm sure has some flaws, but still is an option.

Uconn and Cincy follow the BE 7. Temple retreats to A10. CUSA bloats and welcomes back all its prodigal sons. BUT, the CUSA 2.0 stays in existence as a football only league. It's still a step up for all parties involved right?

[MplsBison]

For selfish reason, I would like to see them take Creighton. I hope that would help push UNI towards and all sports MAC membership.

Would NDSU & SDSU in the MVC help you stay? :D

[MplsBison]

I'm thinking of another giant loser in this scenario: UMass. They moved up to FBS in order to impress the Big East. Now, they're stuck in the MAC in football with anemic crowds and no Big East to aspire to.

UConn, UMass, and Temple have the beginnings of an FBS conference. The trouble is the ACC has the rest of the teams that would make it interesting, all former Big East teams.

MAC & A10 will work as well for them as it did Temple. Gives them a place to grow their football brand and a reasonably good home for bball.

[MplsBison]

Here's a wild and crazy idea that I'm sure has some flaws, but still is an option.

Uconn and Cincy follow the BE 7. Temple retreats to A10. CUSA bloats and welcomes back all its prodigal sons. BUT, the CUSA 2.0 stays in existence as a football only league. It's still a step up for all parties involved right?

I'm with you on UConn and Cincy to the New Big East for non-football.

Why would CUSA take back all those schools? They'd have a huge conference and only one auto-bid. I think those schools have too much forward momentum to go back to a conference that added teams from the Sun Belt.

[HailSzczur]

I'm with you on UConn and Cincy to the New Big East for non-football.

Why would CUSA take back all those schools? They'd have a huge conference and only one auto-bid. I think those schools have too much forward momentum to go back to a conference that added teams from the Sun Belt.

Hence the wild and crazy part. I don't even pretend to know CUSA (the real one) politics when I need a map to keep track of my own conference lol.

Word is there won't be announcement today so that means we all get to spend all night playing these games.

[superman7515]

Gee, what happened to those lowball numbers from CBS Sports (a bidder for those rights) and ESPN (also a bidder for those rights)? BWAH HAHA HAHA HAH HHAH AHHA

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/#ixzz2Ex7x1Pvj

Your link doesn't work.

[PantherRob82]

Would NDSU & SDSU in the MVC help you stay? :D

No, that would make it easier to leave. An MVC without Creighton and with those two can't have a better RPI than the MAC. At least not enough for it to make a difference. :)

[clenz]

Would NDSU & SDSU in the MVC help you stay? :D
Hell ****ing no. I would be writting 5-10 emails a day to the ahtletic department to get out of a **** hole conference that accepts those two as full members as "replacements" for ****ing Creighton.


I hate Creighton with a passion that is matched only by my hatred for the University of Iowa....However, if they leave the conference I want out as well.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A factoid that needs to be highlighted for DFW.


One of the biggest ironies of the seven schools pulling away is that the one Catholic school most advocating staying together is Georgetown. Georgetown president Jack DeGioia, who has the most history with the league, has been a vocal proponent of trying to keep things together. The irony is that DeGioia and former Big East consultant Paul Tagliabue were among the strongest voices for the Big East to reject its deal worth more than $150 million per year from ESPN last spring. Of all the schools advocating to vote that down -- Notre Dame, Rutgers and Pitt -- Georgetown is the only one left, trying to hold things together.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp

[MplsBison]

Hell ****ing no. I would be writting 5-10 emails a day to the ahtletic department to get out of a **** hole conference that accepts those two as full members as "replacements" for ****ing Creighton.


I hate Creighton with a passion that is matched only by my hatred for the University of Iowa....However, if they leave the conference I want out as well.

Oh please, no one can be a replacement for Creighton. No team will live up to that.

I have a tough time seeing a school from Omaha sending women's soccer to the Northeast for conference games. But if they do leave, I hope you can move up to the MAC.

[MplsBison]

A factoid that needs to be highlighted for DFW.



http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-basketball/news/20121213/big-east-basketball/?sct=hp_t2_a2&eref=sihp

I can't see any reasonable person who is affiliated with any of the original Big East schools being in favor of staying with a bunch of CUSA schools. That's a certain death.

At least leaving is trying to fix it, even if it ends up being no better.

[PantherRob82]

Oh please, no one can be a replacement for Creighton. No team will live up to that.

I have a tough time seeing a school from Omaha sending women's soccer to the Northeast for conference games. But if they do leave, I hope you can move up to the MAC.

Don't get me wrong. I love having the Bizzzzzon and Jacks in our conference for football. If the basketball programs were constantly in the Top 150-200 with some years better, and they were winning the Summit, I would have less complaints.

[MplsBison]

Don't get me wrong. I love having the Bizzzzzon and Jacks in our conference for football. If the basketball programs were constantly in the Top 150-200 with some years better, and they were winning the Summit, I would have less complaints.

Well I was just kidding anyway about NDSU and SDSU.

But realistically, if Creighton leaves and assuming UNI has no out - who are the reasonable replacement candidates?

[clenz]

Well I was just kidding anyway about NDSU and SDSU.

But realistically, if Creighton leaves and assuming UNI has no out - who are the reasonable replacement candidates?
Depends what direction the conference wants to go...south or east.

ORU, Tulsa, (both former members) Murray State, UW-Millwaukee, and 1 or 2 others have been the names most thrown around.


Depending what happens with the Big East 7 departure the MVC could gain some members to keep Creighton happy. The Big East 7 could raid the new A10 for some members and leave schools like Butler, SLU, Fordham, etc... out it would be huge for the MVC.


Remember the MVC is a non-football league, is fairly respected nationally, and finishes top 10 every year in RPI. With 2 teams currently ranked in the top 10, and likely to get 3 (maybe 4) teams in the NCAAs this year the left overs could join to solidify the league long term.

[MplsBison]

So FWIW, this is what I would *like* to see happen (not necessarily what I think is going to happen). Schools listed are all-sports members, including football where applicable, unless noted otherwise.

Big East (non-football conf):
UConn
Gtown
Nova
Marquette
Depaul
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
[add 2-4 teams from A10, whoever they think are the best candidates]


CUSA II (football conf):

UConn (football only)
Temple
Cincinnati
South Florida
Houston
SMU
Central Florida
Tulane
East Carolina

A10:
Same membership, goes from 14 to 10-12 members. Don't really need to add anyone, but I don't care if they do or from where.


Don't care about anything downstream of this, unless it somehow affects the Summit. Perhaps Oakland or the Indiana schools move to Horizon. Then I hope they go after EIU to pair with WIU and force a Summit division of football within the MVFC or a separate conf with a scheduling agreement with the MVC schools.

[PantherRob82]

St Louis- especially if A-10 gets raided
UW-Milwaukee?
Oral Roberts?
Tulsa?

Even less likely:
SIU-E
EIU
SEMO
IPFW
IUPUI

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So FWIW, this is what I would *like* to see happen (not necessarily what I think is going to happen). Schools listed are all-sports members, including football where applicable, unless noted otherwise.

Big East (non-football conf):
UConn
Gtown
Nova
Marquette
Depaul
Providence
St. John's
Seton Hall
[add 2-4 teams from A10, whoever they think are the best candidates]

Don't forget St. Bonaventure.

[clenz]

St Louis- especially if A-10 gets raided
UW-Milwaukee?
Oral Roberts?
Tulsa?

Even less likely:
SIU-E
EIU
SEMO
IPFW
IUPUI
I wouldn't be shocked if the A10/Big East did a deal where they pick the teams they want and leave the rest out to dry. That could leave SLU, DePaul, Butler, and maybe 1 or 2 other decent fits for the MVC. SLU, DePaul, Butler would be home runs for the MVC. That would move us to 13...add one of UWM, ORU, or Tulsa and it's a solid conference.


I hope Elgin is on the phone with DePaul, Butler, SLU, Marquette, Xavier, ORU, and Tulsa for sure...add UWM in as well I guess.

[clenz]

As for if Creighton leaves....things get really interesting for the MVC. They hold a ton of power and weight in the MVC. Without them we quickly fall from high mid major/low high major to mid major...Wichita State won't like that....and thing to remember there is that the Mountain West is in a 9-10 configuration as Hawaii is football only. If BSU, SDSU head back to the MWC they'll need a non-football member to balance Hawaii. Wichita State, BYU, Gonzaga would be the short list there I'd bet. That could really get interesting in the MVC.

If CU leaves UNI starts looking even harder at the FBS move and calls the MAC/CUSA/MWC...if WSU leaves the calls to those conferences don't stop.

[MplsBison]

Don't forget St. Bonaventure.

"[add 2-4 teams from A10, whoever they think are the best candidates]"

[HailSzczur]

Don't forget St. Bonaventure.

I hope we forget the Bonnies. This league doesn't have a prayer if we don't get the best of the mid majors.

[MplsBison]

I wouldn't be shocked if the A10/Big East did a deal where they pick the teams they want and leave the rest out to dry. That could leave SLU, DePaul, Butler, and maybe 1 or 2 other decent fits for the MVC. SLU, DePaul, Butler would be home runs for the MVC. That would move us to 13...add one of UWM, ORU, or Tulsa and it's a solid conference.


I hope Elgin is on the phone with DePaul, Butler, SLU, Marquette, Xavier, ORU, and Tulsa for sure...add UWM in as well I guess.

Never thought of Depaul being left out of the New Big East, if nothing more to have a foot in Chicago market (I know, they only bring a fraction). Who from the A10 would be better and give them Chicago? I don't think you can get it with a combo of Marquette and Butler.

If Depaul was somehow left out, then I wonder would they prefer to be in the Horizon with Milwaukee and UIC?

[clenz]

Never thought of Depaul being left out of the New Big East, if nothing more to have a foot in Chicago market (I know, they only bring a fraction). Who from the A10 would be better and give them Chicago? I don't think you can get it with a combo of Marquette and Butler.

If Depaul was somehow left out, then I wonder would they prefer to be in the Horizon with Milwaukee and UIC?DePaul is going to stay as high as they can....which will be the MVC.

[MplsBison]

For what it's worth, ESPN mid major rankings. NDSU just lost Tues night in Minneapolis, 57-70 to the Gophers. Other two losses are Green Bay and Indiana.

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/69880/mid-major-report-power-rankings

[clenz]

The MVC has 4 of the top 15....

All 3 of UNI's losses have come to teams currently in the RPI top 100 (Louisville by 5, Memphis by 5, and Stanford....also have a top 100 win with 5 more top 100 games in the next 3 weeks.

[MplsBison]

And none from the A10...

[Nova09]

Never thought of Depaul being left out of the New Big East, if nothing more to have a foot in Chicago market (I know, they only bring a fraction). Who from the A10 would be better and give them Chicago? I don't think you can get it with a combo of Marquette and Butler.

If Depaul was somehow left out, then I wonder would they prefer to be in the Horizon with Milwaukee and UIC?

Loyola Ill could be a big wild card no one is talking about solely based on market.

[PantherRob82]

Loyola Ill could be a big wild card no one is talking about solely based on market.

Loyola is the lowest of the Chicago schools, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Hey, let's play a game - pick schools in the Chicago area that "deliver the Chicago market". Chicago State! Loyola (IL)! DePaul! Who cares if it makes sense for them? Who cares if it makes sense for Georgetown/Villanova to associate with them? Who cares if it makes an ounce of sense? It's realignment! It's TV! It makes sense!

xrolleyesx

[Nova09]

Hey, let's play a game - pick schools in the Chicago area that "deliver the Chicago market". Chicago State! Loyola (IL)! DePaul! Who cares if it makes sense for them? Who cares if it makes sense for Georgetown/Villanova to associate with them? Who cares if it makes an ounce of sense? It's realignment! It's TV! It makes sense!

xrolleyesx

Ok, I know its still a complete long shot, but I named Loyola Ill cuz they're Catholic. And I know the profile of the new conference will be more about smallish private than necessarily Catholic, but the point is Loyola Ill fits that. I know their athletics are terrible and they bring nothing other than the market, which I alluded to in my first post.

[MplsBison]

Hey, let's play a game - pick schools in the Chicago area that "deliver the Chicago market". Chicago State! Loyola (IL)! DePaul! Who cares if it makes sense for them? Who cares if it makes sense for Georgetown/Villanova to associate with them? Who cares if it makes an ounce of sense? It's realignment! It's TV! It makes sense!

xrolleyesx

Good, I want you nice and bitter.

[GannonFan]

Picking schools for a basketball-mainly conference based on the projected TV market size is silly - this isn't football where there is uber-amounts of TV revenue. This is college basketball, where regular season TV revenue is nice, but not even the biggest piece of the pie. Take for instance the current Big East - those teams get more today annually from credits from the NCAA tournament than they do even the most optimistic future TV package. Now granted, as the years go by those credits will also start to decrease (several years of 9 teams in the tournament and also recent defectors basically forfeitting their credits when they left for other conferences), but for today, that's a bigger piece of the pie in terms of revenue.

At this point, it's basically picking the best basketball-only schools out there (since any school with a decent football program would bolt this conference as soon as they get the chance) and then hoping it sticks. It's going to be tough to annually be going up against teams from the Big 5 conferences that are bringing in, per team, 10-20 times the revenue, or more, because they have the advantage of football. Without the right coach or right program in place, it will be easy to fall quickly. Holding onto great coaches (ala what the Zags have done with Few and with what Butler's been doing with their coach) will be paramount.

[MplsBison]

Picking schools for a basketball-mainly conference based on the projected TV market size is silly - this isn't football where there is uber-amounts of TV revenue. This is college basketball, where regular season TV revenue is nice, but not even the biggest piece of the pie. Take for instance the current Big East - those teams get more today annually from credits from the NCAA tournament than they do even the most optimistic future TV package. Now granted, as the years go by those credits will also start to decrease (several years of 9 teams in the tournament and also recent defectors basically forfeitting their credits when they left for other conferences), but for today, that's a bigger piece of the pie in terms of revenue.

At this point, it's basically picking the best basketball-only schools out there (since any school with a decent football program would bolt this conference as soon as they get the chance) and then hoping it sticks. It's going to be tough to annually be going up against teams from the Big 5 conferences that are bringing in, per team, 10-20 times the revenue, or more, because they have the advantage of football. Without the right coach or right program in place, it will be easy to fall quickly. Holding onto great coaches (ala what the Zags have done with Few and with what Butler's been doing with their coach) will be paramount.

And therein lies the problem of money - great coaches need to get paid.

[HailSzczur]

Why the emphasis that the additions have to be Catholic? I don't get that? Like GannonFan said it's about picking the best teams out there and getting them together

[Nova09]

Why the emphasis that the additions have to be Catholic? I don't get that? Like GannonFan said it's about picking the best teams out there and getting them together

I don't think they need to be catholic, but I do think they need to be smallish private schools otherwise they won't see the conference as a long term fit.

[Go Green]

It's going to be tough to annually be going up against teams from the Big 5 conferences.

Wasn't that long ago when basketball's "Big 5 conferences" meant the Ivy, the Big East, and the Atlantic 10. :)

[DFW HOYA]

I don't think they need to be catholic, but I do think they need to be smallish private schools otherwise they won't see the conference as a long term fit.

Like that school of 25,000 in Chicago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DePaul_University

[Nova09]

Like that school of 25,000 in Chicago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DePaul_University

And I never liked adding DePaul to the conference in the first place. They might get to keep their place just cuz they were already in.

[GannonFan]

And therein lies the problem of money - great coaches need to get paid.


But they can get paid pretty decent money. Even VCU found a way to keep Smart in tow. Gonzaga has done the same with Few. This isn't football, where there is a huge difference in money between the SEC and the CUSA, for instance. The money from the Big 5 conferences for basketball coaches will be more, but not that much more, and you can make the case that job security and long term committment can make up the difference where the money is different. Few could get paid more somewhere else, but right now if he doesn't leave he has a job at Gonzaga until he retires (or really loses his edge and doesn't compete). That's worth something.

[GannonFan]

Wasn't that long ago when basketball's "Big 5 conferences" meant the Ivy, the Big East, and the Atlantic 10. :)

Being a Philly guy, I aways think of the Big 5 in that way. People not from Philly don't get that though.

[Go...gate]

Academically, Georgetown is and always will be Georgetown (an elite university) with or without the Big East. The schools that the BE probably most enhanced academically, and to an extent, athletically were Providence, Villanova and maybe Seton Hall. Those are the schools that will be hurt with the demise of the BE.

You bet it advanced Seton Hall, which was never a particularly good or well-known school until they got Holy Cross's spot in the Big East in 1979. This could really be detrimental to their brand over time.

[DFW HOYA]

Nobody, but nobody, raised their visibility more than Connecticut.

[MplsBison]

Nobody, but nobody, raised their visibility more than Connecticut.

You talking pre-1979 to UConn pre-big time football? Or you talking about after they went big time in football?

[Go Green]

You bet it advanced Seton Hall, which was never a particularly good or well-known school until they got Holy Cross's spot in the Big East in 1979.


I thought Holy Cross' spot went to BC.

[Laker]

You bet it advanced Seton Hall, which was never a particularly good or well-known school until they got Holy Cross's spot in the Big East in 1979. This could really be detrimental to their brand over time.

I had never heard of Seton Hall before the Big East was formed- I had heard of the other schools. Besides their great run in 1989 when Michigan beat them in the last seconds of the finals, I can't remember them having a memorable year.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I had never heard of Seton Hall before the Big East was formed- I had heard of the other schools. Besides their great run in 1989 when Michigan beat them in the last seconds of the finals, I can't remember them having a memorable year.


Seton Hall was really good until Terry Dehere graduated in '93 or so. After Carlisimo left they were decent, but never truly great. They had a few decent teams in the early 2000's under Amaker. In fact, they upset Temple as a huge underdog in the 2000 tournament. We were a 2 seed after going into the Shoe and beating #1 Cincinnati with a healthy Kenyon Martin earlier in the year. I'll never forget the name Ty Shine....ugh.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

PJ and Seton Hall taught how schools could bend the rules to try to win basketball championships, like "hiring" 26 year old Andrew Gaze to play a year for him, who was a member of the Australian Olympic team. Ramon Ramos was also an Olympian who "transferred" from Puerto Rico to play a season for PJ, though at 22 years old he at least was almost the same age as other Seton Hall (redshirted) undergraduates.

Seton Hall was also noted for point shaving in the early 1950s. "Cheatin' Hall" they called them.

They seem to have run a clean program now since those days, but their history is obfuscated for good reasons.

[Go...gate]

I thought Holy Cross' spot went to BC.

As I recall from those days, HC and BC were originally slated for the Big East. Rutgers actually lobbied to keep Seton Hall out of the old "Eastern 8" formed right after RU hoops went to the Final Four in '76. Seton Hall got the nod after HC decided not to join up. If Seton Hall had not joined the Big East, they would most likely have ended up in the MAAC.

[Go...gate]

PJ and Seton Hall taught how schools could bend the rules to try to win basketball championships, like "hiring" 26 year old Andrew Gaze to play a year for him, who was a member of the Australian Olympic team. Ramon Ramos was also an Olympian who "transferred" from Puerto Rico to play a season for PJ, though at 22 years old he at least was almost the same age as other Seton Hall (redshirted) undergraduates.

Seton Hall was also noted for point shaving in the early 1950s. "Cheatin' Hall" they called them.

They seem to have run a clean program now since those days, but their history is obfuscated for good reasons.

SHU was actually a powerful program until the scandals, winning the NIT Championship when it was the more meaningful of the national tournamants.

[DFW HOYA]

I thought Holy Cross' spot went to BC.

The proposed group was:
BC
UConn
Georgetown
Holy Cross (declined)
Providence
Rutgers (declined, replaced by Seton Hall)
St. John's
Syracuse

Holy Cross and BC were both being considered. In terms of HC's "spot", it then went to Villanova, who came in a year later.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The proposed group was:
BC
UConn
Georgetown
Holy Cross (declined)
Providence
Rutgers (declined, replaced by Seton Hall)
St. John's
Syracuse

Holy Cross and BC were both being considered. In terms of HC's "spot", it then went to Villanova, who came in a year later.

This article states that Temple was also invited in 1979.

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/owlsinq/Temple-to-join-Big-East.html

[Go...gate]

The proposed group was:
BC
UConn
Georgetown
Holy Cross (declined)
Providence
Rutgers (declined, replaced by Seton Hall)
St. John's
Syracuse

Holy Cross and BC were both being considered. In terms of HC's "spot", it then went to Villanova, who came in a year later.

I believe that we will have to agree to disagree, DFW HOYA. Bottom line is that Seton Hall snuck in. Agree on Villanova, which left the Eastern 8 much to Rutgers' consternation, to be later followed by Pitt and West Virginia.

[DFW HOYA]

The BC-HC issue was detailed in a 1989 book by the Providence Journal's Bill Reynolds on the history of the Big East. Gavitt thought both could coexist.

[bonarae]

Compilation of articles:

http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8745235/seven-schools-agree-leave-big-east-debating-process-source-says
http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/story/_/id/8745768/the-catholic-7-take-calculable-risk-bolting-big-east-college-basketball

[MplsBison]

Wait a second...this kinda changes things a little bit:


Initially, both the FBS and non-FBS schools believed, sources said, that the seven Catholic schools could dissolve the league by a two-thirds majority vote, which they have. However, a source with knowledge of the situation told ESPN on Thursday that the league may not be dissolved without at least two FBS and two non-FBS members each voting to do so.

That won't happen as only 10 full members -- the seven departing, non-FBS schools plus UConn, Cincinnati and South Florida -- remain in the conference and the FBS schools don't want the league to dissolve. Temple is a football-only member. The Owls will be full members next year but would not get a vote on dissolution this year.

Without voting to dissolve, the seven schools are expected to move together to form a new league. They would keep their automatic berth in the NCAA basketball tournament because NCAA rules state that as long as a group of seven universities has been in the same league for five years, it keeps its bid after a move together to a new conference.


In a sense, anyway.

It's still going to work out the same...but now there's a chance that the league I was calling CUSA II might actually remain named the Big East and the group of 7 will be something else. Also looks like UConn might stay in this Big East/CUSA II conference as full members after all....which is sad.

[PAllen]

"They would keep their automatic berth in the NCAA basketball tournament because NCAA rules state that as long as a group of seven universities has been in the same league for five years, it keeps its bid after a move together to a new conference."

Interesting rule. So What happens if the SEC splits in half? Each would have seven schools that played in the same league for five years. Which side gets to keep the automatic bid?

[MplsBison]

"They would keep their automatic berth in the NCAA basketball tournament because NCAA rules state that as long as a group of seven universities has been in the same league for five years, it keeps its bid after a move together to a new conference."

Interesting rule. So What happens if the SEC splits in half? Each would have seven schools that played in the same league for five years. Which side gets to keep the automatic bid?

They both would get one, exactly what's going to happen here.

But the one interesting thing is that going from 31 to 32 auto bids is only if the WAC survives as a bball conf. So it could still be 31 with the new league taking the WAC's spot if it dies.

[MplsBison]

This exquisitely captures why the 7 presidents made the correct decision:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/sports/ncaabasketball/returning-home-by-leaving-big-east.html?_r=0


Trends can be reversed, however. Here is an opportunity for the Big East Seven to stand up and say enough, stand for a basketball league that again makes sense.

Put out feelers to Philadelphia programs like St. Joseph’s and La Salle. Make a play for Xavier in the Cincinnati market; inquire about the availability of Butler and its exceedingly charming Hinkle Fieldhouse a couple of miles from downtown Indianapolis. Dayton and St. Louis could be further Midwest possibilities, joining Marquette and DePaul. Back in the East, even Hofstra on Long Island might provide St. John’s with a suburban playmate to wrestle with.

Predictably, there is already the speculation of making this new proposed league a national force, with impressive programs out West like Gonzaga and St. Mary’s. While they would make for expensive and strange geographic bedfellows, that path would still be preferable to riding along with a second-rate football league and a truly slapdash basketball operation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There is a lot of mention about boldness and principle (really?) when it comes to these seven schools, but I'm still at a loss as to how any of these schools will make money this way. Gonzaga is one of the few programs that make money playing mid-major hoops, and they do so by parking their sports in the WCC and acting like a coast-to-coast basketball program otherwise. You could say the same about Butler. What happens when they're flying every non-revenue sport to all four corners of the country?

The new Big East is basically trying to take the A-10 business model and expanding it, and the A-10 business model isn't exactly a huge moneymaker.

[MplsBison]

There is a lot of mention about boldness and principle (really?) when it comes to these seven schools, but I'm still at a loss as to how any of these schools will make money this way. Gonzaga is one of the few programs that make money playing mid-major hoops, and they do so by parking their sports in the WCC and acting like a coast-to-coast basketball program otherwise. You could say the same about Butler. What happens when they're flying every non-revenue sport to all four corners of the country?

The new Big East is basically trying to take the A-10 business model and expanding it, and the A-10 business model isn't exactly a huge moneymaker.

The reason this is happening in the first place is the money that wasn't going to be there anyway. Yeah sure, when the big name football schools were in the conference there was TV money to be had and distributed to the non-football schools.

Staying in the Big East as proposed there wouldn't have been much money anyway.


Don't get me wrong, I don't even like the idea of them flying soccer and cross-country teams out to even Cincinnati...but they'll figure something out that works for them.

[DFW HOYA]

This exquisitely captures why the 7 presidents made the correct decision:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/14/sports/ncaabasketball/returning-home-by-leaving-big-east.html?_r=0

A second-rate football league still trumps a third rate basketball league.

[MplsBison]

A second-rate football league still trumps a third rate basketball league.

Yeah, sending the soccer and cross-country teams to Memphis and Houston while drawing 5k against those teams in the Verizon center is really going to get things done in the Gtown athletic dept.

[DFW HOYA]

Yeah, sending the soccer and cross-country teams to Memphis and Houston while drawing 5k against those teams in the Verizon center is really going to get things done in the Gtown athletic dept.

As opposed to say, sending the soccer and cross-country teams to Indianapolis and Chicago while still drawing 5k against those teams in the Verizon Center.

[MplsBison]

As opposed to say, sending the soccer and cross-country teams to Indianapolis and Chicago while still drawing 5k against those teams in the Verizon Center.

I'm not advocating for the Big East to add anyone outside the Northeast! I think they'd do very well to get back to historic roots and make it regional for the sake of travel costs.

Gtown, Nova, St John's *should* be three good enough programs to hold the fort of any NE, private school conference as a solid mid-major.

[MplsBison]

Not that there was any doubt, but it is official now. The seven will leave the Big East and start a new conference. http://espn.go.com/college-sports/story/_/id/8749700/seven-schools-decide-leave-big-east-pursue-new-basketball-framework

I don't doubt they'll also get all the NCAA tournament payments due to those seven schools. Also don't think they'll have to wait or pay exit fees.

But I have a feeling the name Big East will stay with the football schools, the rest of that tournament payments (due to schools like Pitt, Cuse, WV) will stay and the football schools will keep the money owed to the Big East by the departing football schools.

[MplsBison]

Another guess I'll throw out there is that the seven, Notre Dame, Louisville and Rutgers will still be in the Big East for the 2013-14 season. Then those all leave for their new respective homes.

[HailSzczur]

A little statistical break down of how the new CYO league looks:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7vJE-6BxG2abVJKODFUX055WDA

Looking at this I hope we can convince Cincy and UConn to follow us. If that happens I could like to see Dayton, Xavier, and Butler to round it out 12 teams. I like 12 because it allows for 2 divisions with 2 games with intra-division mates and 1 against the other division.

[MplsBison]

A little statistical break down of how the new CYO league looks:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7vJE-6BxG2abVJKODFUX055WDA

Looking at this I hope we can convince Cincy and UConn to follow us. If that happens I could like to see Dayton, Xavier, and Butler to round it out 12 teams. I like 12 because it allows for 2 divisions with 2 games with intra-division mates and 1 against the other division.

But will the Big East still allow UConn and Cincy football to play? Now, I don't think so.

So that said, I do believe UConn and Cincy are going to stay in the Big East and as I mentioned above, I think it's going to stay the Big East (with the new league called something else).

[HailSzczur]

But will the Big East still allow UConn and Cincy football to play? Now, I don't think so.

So that said, I do believe UConn and Cincy are going to stay in the Big East and as I mentioned above, I think it's going to stay the Big East (with the new league called something else).

I'm no lawyer but the only ways I can see the new conference operating under the BE name is 1) UConn and Cincy join 2) The Big East dissolves 3) The CYO teams fork over $$$ for the name. So Big Priest it is. Or The Chosen 12. All Saints Conference?

I agree though, UConn and Cincy are forced to go down with the ship. Unless the conference folds or the Big 10/ACC takes pity on them its their home

[citdog]

The Chosen 12.




pretty sure there is already a group known as this.



http://www.jesus-explained.org/images/Christ-ordains-the-Twelve.jpg

[MplsBison]

pretty sure there is already a group known as this.



http://www.jesus-explained.org/images/Christ-ordains-the-Twelve.jpg

Oh my...what is he doing with that boy kneeling in front of his crotch like that???

[ccd494]

The Chosen 12.

Brandeis, Yeshiva, and who else?

[ITmonarch10]

A little statistical break down of how the new CYO league looks:
https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B7vJE-6BxG2abVJKODFUX055WDA

Looking at this I hope we can convince Cincy and UConn to follow us. If that happens I could like to see Dayton, Xavier, and Butler to round it out 12 teams. I like 12 because it allows for 2 divisions with 2 games with intra-division mates and 1 against the other division.

I can't believe Cincy has never won a Big East Championship yet has 2 NCAA championships. xdontknowx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I can't believe Cincy has never won a Big East Championship yet has 2 NCAA championships. xdontknowx

Cincinnati has only been in the BE for 8 or 9 years. Overall, they were a better program in the 90's than they were in the 2000's, minus 2000 with Martin. Those Fortson and Patterson teams spent quite a bit of time at #1 and Van Excel took them to the FF in '92 when they were in the Great Midwest/CUSA.

[superman7515]

Sometimes I just like to play some games I haven't for a while, for those who still have some NCAA games from the late 90's early 00's, check out all the differences. Especially if you have like 03 where all the 1AA teams are included, haha. It seems like half the teams are either in a different conference, don't exist anymore, or didn't exist then.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sometimes I just like to play some games I haven't for a while, for those who still have some NCAA games from the late 90's early 00's, check out all the differences. Especially if you have like 03 where all the 1AA teams are included, haha. It seems like half the teams are either in a different conference, don't exist anymore, or didn't exist then.

Remember when Boise State and Idaho were not only in the same conference, but rivals? Good times.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing that really struck me about the Big East breakup vote was that it was unanimous. This leads me to believe that UConn has cut a deal to be a part of the new Big East in basketball.

Unlike many that are trying to float up the flagpole that 10 teams is optimal, if they get enough of a regional cluster of schools I believe they'll go to 12 or 14. Reason being the more teams they have the more sports the new league can sponsor, like lacrosse, volleyball and the like. (This will keep the new Big East from having the same problems as the Mountain West.) Not to mention that if they go to a divisional format that will cut down on travel costs across the country.

Finally, I believe they'll cluster in two places: the east and midwest. Gonzaga will not become a part of the new conference, and if they do, it will be a huge indicator that this league will not be able to function.

[MplsBison]

Very reasonable post, LFN. Well done.