I've been asking this question for years, still don't know. Why is attendance awful

[ASU_Fanatic]

in the playoffs? It's so frustrating! I'll never forget when App played Nova a few years ago on national television and I'm telling all my friends who all like Bama or Florida to watch for a great atmosphere and WE HAVE LIKE 15,000 FANS AT THE GAME. What gives??? I understand the games right after Thanksgiving, but when it gets to rounds 2 and 3 there should be a full packed stadium! I know it's not just ASU that has this problem, I think most teams experience a drop in attendance during the playoffs which are the most exciting games of the year

[walliver]

The rules concerning students are different.

For regular season games, at many schools students get in free or at a reduced rate, frequently with low priced "date tickets". In the playoffs, the games are sponsored by the host school on behalf of the NCAA. Students either have to pay more to go, or student tickets are counted as less than a full ticket.

Also, the host school has to pay the NCAA the guaranteed bid or a cut of the gate (whichever is higher) and therefore tend to be more truthful (Although I had read some fans bragging that their schools under-report playoff attendance to rip off the NCAA - it says something about modern morality when it is better to rip off the NCAA than admit to poor attendance).

[ASU_Fanatic]

The rules concerning students are different.

For regular season games, at many schools students get in free or at a reduced rate, frequently with low priced "date tickets". In the playoffs, the games are sponsored by the host school on behalf of the NCAA. Students either have to pay more to go, or student tickets are counted as less than a full ticket.

Also, the host school has to pay the NCAA the guaranteed bid or a cut of the gate (whichever is higher) and therefore tend to be more truthful (Although I had read some fans bragging that their schools under-report playoff attendance to rip off the NCAA - it says something about modern morality when it is better to rip off the NCAA than admit to poor attendance).I could be completely wrong, but I don't remember App STUDENTS being the problem during the playoff games, I thought they still turned up pretty good. From what I remember it was the other sections where attendance was bad.

[grayghost06]

I have always said that for all the great atmospheres we might have at many FCS schools, the playoffs illustrate the difference between FCS and big boy football. The students are not as invested when they have to pay or when holidays interfere. I'm pretty sure that Bama will have it's entire student allottment scooped up even though their game is over Thanksgiving weekend. And the regular fans who can't attend due to family obligations will have no trouble finding takers for their tickets. BCS fans will work in the game around the holidays...not nearly the same w/ small ball.

[gotts]

Was barely able to get tickets today for the first NDSU matchup on 12/1. Tickets available today were released at 2:00 PM CST and were probably gone within 20-30 minutes.

[ASU_Fanatic]

Was barely able to get tickets today for the first NDSU matchup on 12/1. Tickets available today were released at 2:00 PM CST and were probably gone within 20-30 minutes.

wow. i never get app tickets till the day or two before

[Vitojr130]

Was barely able to get tickets today for the first NDSU matchup on 12/1. Tickets available today were released at 2:00 PM CST and were probably gone within 20-30 minutes.

Yeah hopefully they release SRO the day before the game still.... I wasn't lucky enough to get a GA ticket!

[JMUNJ08]

I have always said that for all the great atmospheres we might have at many FCS schools, the playoffs illustrate the difference between FCS and big boy football. The students are not as invested when they have to pay or when holidays interfere. I'm pretty sure that Bama will have it's entire student allottment scooped up even though their game is over Thanksgiving weekend. And the regular fans who can't attend due to family obligations will have no trouble finding takers for their tickets. BCS fans will work in the game around the holidays...not nearly the same w/ small ball.

I agree with this. Its also not being the main thing/ team in the area as it seems NDSU doesn't have trouble drawing while other teams do.

In '08, we weren't sold out for a game until the Semi Final game vs. Montana. Student turnout was lower but the big thing was regular fans as well since they had to go and purchase these tickets each week. The $5 JMU charged wasn't terrible but when the stadium wasn't as full on some game days, they could always go over the student numbers. Correct me if I am wrong, but until recently, they never said "that was #8K, turn away the rest of the kids trying to get in and support the team"

[Hammerhead]

It could be that some fans have non-football plans on Saturdays in November. Even back when NDSU played outside, the stands wer full for every playoff game I attended in the 1980s matter how cold it was.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

Attendance is just goin to get worst, with the state of the economy, and Obama raising taxes, I believe fans are going to have to make some tough choices, I've noticed a lot of empty seats at some premire BCS schools, 3 years ago, that would never been the case. Apps been fortunate to have such a strong fan base, but if things don't get better, I fear we will see a dramatic drop off in attendance.

[Professor Chaos]

Yeah hopefully they release SRO the day before the game still.... I wasn't lucky enough to get a GA ticket!
There will be unclaimed season tickets going on sale Wednesday morning. Then I would guess they'll also sell part of the student section as GA sometime next week if (or more accurately "when") the students don't purchase tickets for their full allotment.

[frozennorth]

part of it i think is the uncertain nature of whether you will have a game to go to at all. People make other plans.

[Gringer1]

Season ticket holders have to pay again, so they don't turn out as much. People don't have an entire off season to plan attendance, so it's more like a last minute thing. Students are dealing with final exams and holidays, so they aren't as hyped up. Add to that the name recognition factor. You're usually playing teams OOC that most of your fans have not heard of or followed all season, so you don't get the kind of rivalry/respected opponent feel of regular season games.

[theasushow]

I agree with all of the above...but I think the FBS is hurting too. I cant tell you how many "big time" programs will have huge empty sections during their games. Miami is a good example....they never appear to have more than 20k at a game, even a nationally televised espn thursday night game and the place was empty. I have been to a few Wake Forest games year as well...its a sad scene.

[JMUNJ08]

Attendance is just goin to get worst, with the state of the economy, and Obama raising taxes, I believe fans are going to have to make some tough choices, I've noticed a lot of empty seats at some premire BCS schools, 3 years ago, that would never been the case. Apps been fortunate to have such a strong fan base, but if things don't get better, I fear we will see a dramatic drop off in attendance.

Sorry, but disagree with the "Economy & Obama Raising Taxes" argument. If Romney kept them lower, the stadiums would be full?

The real answer is that teams (both professional & college) keep wanting to keep making more and more $$$$$$. So they keep raising ticket prices which push out the real fans. How many on this board can afford Yankee season tickets at $1,250? That is $1,250 A SEAT FOR 1 GAME. Now, I am sure you would like to go with someone too, so its really $2,500 for 81 BASEBALL GAMES. That is the most extreme example but with PSL's, minimum giving levels, rising prices for annual losing teams etc, etc, I would rather get my $5 6-pack and sit in front of my HD TV for most ho hum games...

[ASU_Fanatic]

Season ticket holders have to pay again, so they don't turn out as much. People don't have an entire off season to plan attendance, so it's more like a last minute thing. Students are dealing with final exams and holidays, so they aren't as hyped up. Add to that the name recognition factor. You're usually playing teams OOC that most of your fans have not heard of or followed all season, so you don't get the kind of rivalry/respected opponent feel of regular season games.

I think I agree with this the most. As a season ticket holder I never sit in the same spot for the playoffs I did in the regular season and I agree people preseason make their plans for the games they are going to attend.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

no,no, dont get me wrong, I'm not entirely blaming Obama for the this mess, if Romney won, we still would be facing these problems. I'm just saying the ecomony has gotten so bad, to the point of a recession, that familes are going to have to make some difficult choices, just to pay the bills, and one of the things they will have to cut back on is going to collage football games. People are losing their jobs, no raises in the immediate future, and of course, tax hikes, which is going to happen.

[ecasadoSBU]

I think the reason attendance drops is because the games get marketed so little by the media that most people don't even realize the games are going on. The regular season schedule is released 6-12 months before the season so people know when the season games are occurring but the playoff bracket is released a week before the game so there is little buildup and hype. ESPN doesn't bother on hyping it, and no other major media company other than TSN bothers to cover it.

[AppChicago]

I'm not sure I buy the weak economy argument (or the tax rate argument, for that matter, but that's a whole 'nother thread, no?). Playoff attendance is slack compared to the regular season when the economy is doing well, too. I think a huge part of it is just that it's a lot harder to get all your ducks in a row to get to a playoff game with a week's notice than it is to get to a regular season game when you have months to plan. Weekends between Thanksgiving and Christmas are likely to be packed with prior commitments. People have to travel. People have jobs and kids and court dates (just me?). Plus there's the little mental calculus at work: If your team is on fire, you can rationalize not heading up for a game because you'll be able to catch the next one. If your team is having an off year, fans are less motivated to come at all. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

money talks, if you ain't got money for baby's milk....you aint going to no ballgame.

[AppChicago]

money talks, if you ain't got money for baby's milk....you aint going to no ballgame.

Very well, but I don't know what percentage of the regular attendees are struggling at quite that level. They aren't in Stadium Lot, that's for sure. But we see this every year. Not just in lean years. There's always a lower proportion of people at playoff games vs regular season games.

[steelr7]

I was very dissapointed with the student section at almost every NDSU home game this season. With the demand for tickets i could see them opening up more of those for general admission next season. Student section turnout was definitely better last season.

[robsnotes4u]

I was very dissapointed with the student section at almost every NDSU home game this season. With the demand for tickets i could see them opening up more of those for general admission next season. Student section turnout was definitely better last season.

Noticed the same thing this year at the UND Montana game. My daughter, who attends UND, says it isn't cool to go to the games. When I was at UND, even though we sucked, We didn't miss a game. Huge pre-game parties and such. Times have changed I guess.


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[ASU_Fanatic]

My daughter, who attends UND, says it isn't cool to go to the games.


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In the male mind this makes no logical sense lol. I think App's students have been great as always this year

[Twentysix]

I was very dissapointed with the student section at almost every NDSU home game this season. With the demand for tickets I could see them opening up more of those for general admission next season. Student section turnout was definitely better last season.

Won't happen. Universities are for the students first and foremost.

[robsnotes4u]

You are a lot like Griz fans, they are fanatics, and never lose that feeling, proven this year again. I will also add, very respectful


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[BisonBohl]

Won't happen. Universities are for the students first and foremost.


Yup definitely will not happen, you think the student section was bad this year (when in reality its pretty solid for an FCS school) cut back on their tickets next season and it will only get worse.

[No_Skill]

Yup definitely will not happen, you think the student section was bad this year (when in reality its pretty solid for an FCS school) cut back on their tickets next season and it will only get worse.

Yeah I'm not in favor of cutting back the student's allotment. After all, they are the future fanbase

On the other hand, if they don't buy them up during the playoffs, they need to sell the remainder to the general public.

[BisonBohl]

Yeah I'm not in favor of cutting back the student's allotment. After all, they are the future fanbase

On the other hand, if they don't buy them up during the playoffs, they need to sell the remainder to the general public.

They already do that. During the playoff the students have a deadline date and if there are tickets available they are released to the general public.

[Sader87]

It's a good question with probably a myriad of answers depending on the school etc...

I know in Holy Cross' case we had a very lackluster 13K or so for the Western Carolina game in 1983, which was down from 20K crowds at Fitton for some regular season games that year. In our case I think it was a bit of a letdown after the BC game, too late in the season, the novelty (not a good one) of 1-AA playoffs then etc

In general, I don't think college football lends itself it to a playoff structure like basketball (or other sports) do for whatever reason.

[DFW HOYA]

Odds whether Wagner sells out for Colgate?

[ASU_Fanatic]

Yeah it's just frustrating. The playoffs are some of my favorite weeks of the year and nothing is funner than when your team makes a run but it just sucks when you go to a home game and see 16,000-18,000 there instead of the 29,000 you have in the regular season.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I'm not sure I buy the weak economy argument (or the tax rate argument, for that matter, but that's a whole 'nother thread, no?). Playoff attendance is slack compared to the regular season when the economy is doing well, too. I think a huge part of it is just that it's a lot harder to get all your ducks in a row to get to a playoff game with a week's notice than it is to get to a regular season game when you have months to plan. Weekends between Thanksgiving and Christmas are likely to be packed with prior commitments. People have to travel. People have jobs and kids and court dates (just me?). Plus there's the little mental calculus at work: If your team is on fire, you can rationalize not heading up for a game because you'll be able to catch the next one. If your team is having an off year, fans are less motivated to come at all. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The problem is the bolded part. People have less of chance to get all their arrangements in order for playoff games with just 1 weeks notice. They can plan for regular season games and have them planned for weeks in advance.

It also does have to do with students actually having to pay. I know at UNI students can get in free for all regular season games. Then in the playoffs they have to pay and it is less likely for them to want to do that.

[polsongrizz]

in the playoffs? It's so frustrating! I'll never forget when App played Nova a few years ago on national television and I'm telling all my friends who all like Bama or Florida to watch for a great atmosphere and WE HAVE LIKE 15,000 FANS AT THE GAME. What gives??? I understand the games right after Thanksgiving, but when it gets to rounds 2 and 3 there should be a full packed stadium! I know it's not just ASU that has this problem, I think most teams experience a drop in attendance during the playoffs which are the most exciting games of the year

Our first playoff games are like that because of Turkey day, plus it is always held on the last weekend of hunting season. Anybody who hasn't filled that Elk tag is gone. After that it is pretty well packed.

[poly51]

Part of the problem is the selection process. Nobody knows until six days before the first games if they will have a home game. Going into the holidays and post season weekends a lot of other plans have already been made to do other things and can't be changed. (I know, in some areas there is nothing else to do but go to a game. Except maybe hunting season.)

Give all the Conference Champions that are AQs a home game in the first round and it would at least help that situation. Or base the home games on D1 wins or some set formula and stop this bidding crap. Doing playoffs by region would also create more interest in the early matchups.

[AmsterBison]

Give all the Conference Champions that are AQs a home game in the first round and it would at least help that situation. Or base the home games on D1 wins or some set formula and stop this bidding crap. Doing playoffs by region would also create more interest in the early matchups.

In my experience, regional playoffs absolutely destroy any fan interest because all you get by doing that is regular season rematches. History has shown that attendance for them is awful. Heck, I bet even UND fans would agree with me on that. Conference rematches, especially, are The Suck. Just one example, UND and NDSU met in the second round of the playoffs in Grand Forks and only 5600 showed up to see it.

[ITmonarch10]

In my experience, regional playoffs absolutely destroy any fan interest because all you get by doing that is regular season rematches. History has shown that attendance for them is awful. Heck, I bet even UND fans would agree with me on that. Conference rematches, especially, are The Suck. Just one example, UND and NDSU met in the second round of the playoffs in Grand Forks and only 5600 showed up to see it.

You think it will be the same way if SDSU makes it past the first round.

[AmsterBison]

You think it will be the same way if SDSU makes it past the first round.

Naw, the SDSU game will sell out because right now NDSU has limited seating coupled with overwhelming demand, but that could change. NDSU's situation is not typical for the FCS - in fact, it might be unique.

However, the other reason I don't like regular-season rematches is competitive. Why should NDSU have to beat the same team twice in three games to advance in the playoffs? It's not really fair to SDSU either. Heck, I think that they're good enough that they should have had a first-round bye.

Edit: Regionalization is especially tiresome when you have two top conference teams involved in a rivalry game because the teams end up meeting in the playoffs a lot. It ends up cheapening the rivalry game.

[App1928]

in the playoffs? It's so frustrating! I'll never forget when App played Nova a few years ago on national television and I'm telling all my friends who all like Bama or Florida to watch for a great atmosphere and WE HAVE LIKE 15,000 FANS AT THE GAME. What gives??? I understand the games right after Thanksgiving, but when it gets to rounds 2 and 3 there should be a full packed stadium! I know it's not just ASU that has this problem, I think most teams experience a drop in attendance during the playoffs which are the most exciting games of the year


I believe the problem at App is we have a VERY large percentage of fans who travel great distances to games. We sell guest tickets for every game for the hill and hold a few tickets for each game to be purchased (because we make room for people to squeeze in general admission locations, we average 3,000-4,000 more fans per game than capacity) but in general ALL App State tickets sell out prior to the season starting. People plan ahead to which game they want to go to...even though we have a massive fan base by FCS standards, people dont have time to make plans that quickly especially with thanksgiving being around that time....i know most teams have a similar issue and probably for the same reason (also tickets have only been free to students the past 2 years because App picked up the bill and some students may not know), but out difference between regular season attendance and playoff attendance is a higher than most teams attendance average.

In recent years app averaged between 27,000-29,000 in regular season and playoff crowds have ranged from 6,000-15,000 (24,000 i believe for a few semifinal games during the championship years)....but yeah it sucks...i had a friend who wanted to come to a game last year, but the guest tickets had sold out vs western carolina, so i said "why dont you come to the first playoff game? im sure it will be at home." and she said "nah, Ill just wait till next year...playoff games arnt the same, nobody comes" 15,000 at KBS is a MAJOR disappointment

some schools may do well right now in the playoffs such as NDSU...but my suspicision is people go the extra lengths because of the excitement of uncharted territory....they are newcomers to DI success....sustain success and make the playoffs for 10 straight years and people dont want to go to playoff games due to the crappy atmosphere...

[frozennorth]

In my experience, regional playoffs absolutely destroy any fan interest because all you get by doing that is regular season rematches. History has shown that attendance for them is awful. Heck, I bet even UND fans would agree with me on that. Conference rematches, especially, are The Suck. Just one example, UND and NDSU met in the second round of the playoffs in Grand Forks and only 5600 showed up to see it.

und's record low attendance was a regional playoffs game, iirc. winona state, 2005, i think.

[melloware13]

One thing to keep in mind is that as we enter December with the playoffs, most schools are entering finals week. While some will look at the game as an opportunity to relax from studying, it obviously has to take a lower priority to the classes. That being said, it seemed like we had a pretty good student turnout in the 2010 playoffs if I remember correctly

[danefan]

It's also weather in some cases. It's a lot tougher to watch a outside in November than it is on September.

You have to be really committed. Most FCS schools don't have huge committed fan bases like that. Even the ones that do (eg App) don't have enough.

[asumike83]

It is a matter of location and travel planning, in most cases. You see the steepest drop-off at schools located in small, remote college towns where nearly 100% of the non-student fans drive several hours on game day. Georgia Southern (Statesboro: 28K) and Appalachian (Boone: 17K) are great examples. The season ticket holders have their plans months in advance for the regular season games but it is more difficult to plan a trip in 1-2 weeks, especially during the holiday season.

The only places where you do not see a significant drop in playoff attendance are programs who have both a dedicated fan base and are located in a metropolitan area large enough that a significant portion of those fans/alumni are local and do not have to travel to make the games. Schools like Montana (Missoula Metro: 110K), Old Dominion (Norfolk Metro: 1.6M) and NDSU (Fargo Metro: 215K) all have both of those and continue to have strong attendance throughout the postseason.

It also doesn't help that the students have to pay for playoff games. This year, the ASU athletic department is covering the $5 charge for all students so that they can get in free with just their Student ID. Not sure what effect that may have but I love the idea and hope it makes some difference. No way we get close to our regular season average but it would be great if we could get a few thousand more students out and at least have 18K-20K in the stands.

[mountaineer in Cane Land]

not having to play on Thanksgiving weekend will help, need the locals to step up and fill the seats.

[SpeedkingATL]

Living in ATL about 5 hours away from App I make it up for at least half of the regular season games and a lot of my ATL App friends do about the same. I will certainly be in Boone for the December 1st game but wouldn't have made it Thanksgiving weekend. I know many of the ATL Apps will not make the trip for the playoffs....some of it is just travel exhaustion and for others it's the short term planning issues; for others it's family, for others it's high school playoffs. I agree that many Apps have to travel to get to the games and it takes more than 6 days of planning.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

This conversation comes up every year and every year it gets explained:

1. Students are discounted and only "count" as .5 attendance.
2. Season ticket holders buy extra at the beginning of the year, but don't necessarily buy their whole allotment for playoffs which means the 2-6 guests per season ticket holder that does this are not attending.
3. Schools sandbag attendance because they only want to pay the NCAA the minimum bid amount. This makes attendance drop even more for schools who inflate their attendance numbers in the regular season like App has done for the last 5 or 6 years.
4. Now add the drop for holiday plans and money getting tighter near Christmas for travel, etc.
5. Games are televised in later rounds and the weather isn't nice in most of the venues. People stay home.
6. Major schools in small population states (Montana, NDSU, lesser extent Delaware) aren't as affected because they're "the only game in town" anyway.

[Go Apps]

in the playoffs? It's so frustrating! I'll never forget when App played Nova a few years ago on national television and I'm telling all my friends who all like Bama or Florida to watch for a great atmosphere and WE HAVE LIKE 15,000 FANS AT THE GAME. What gives??? I understand the games right after Thanksgiving, but when it gets to rounds 2 and 3 there should be a full packed stadium! I know it's not just ASU that has this problem, I think most teams experience a drop in attendance during the playoffs which are the most exciting games of the year

The students have to pay that cuts into it - but mostly and I am a prime example I was at every home game this year - but unlikely to make a playoff game - WHY? Company xmas party the first Saturday of December, one child is in a parade the next week and one plays high school basketball the season starts this week - then you have family committments for the holidays - it is just the reality of timing - it sucks would love to be at every game hoping to make the 15th if we can get there and have it at home

Throw in the weather component and the cold can keep many away or snow - remember the W. Illinois game....

I agree it is not good but I don't know how you can really fix it - I think ASU could have 20K in on the first weekend but one never knows

[Apphole]

This conversation comes up every year and every year it gets explained:
1. Students are discounted and only "count" as .5 attendance.

I've only heard Stink fans say this, and quite a few times too. Do they just do this to you or something?



3. Schools sandbag attendance because they only want to pay the NCAA the minimum bid amount. This makes attendance drop even more for schools who inflate their attendance numbers in the regular season like App has done for the last 5 or 6 years.


xlolx You're delusional, man. If you're right and we do inflate our attendance (say we report 30k and we really only have 24), GaSo has 17k by the looks of it. It may be difficult to eye ball each crowd and ball park a number accuratly, but I can damn sure tell you the relative size of each crowd. It is obvious that KBS has an extra 1/3 the amount of people.

Like I said before, if GaSo had 22k when we played last month (my first time in Stinkboro), App averages close to 35k.

Just get over it. We have tons of fans. No need to get all butt-hurt and make things up.

[asumike83]

3. Schools sandbag attendance because they only want to pay the NCAA the minimum bid amount. This makes attendance drop even more for schools who inflate their attendance numbers in the regular season like App has done for the last 5 or 6 years.


I knew it was only a matter of time before a GSU fan made this comment.

If this is 22K:
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/13124435.jpg

Then this is most certainly 30K:
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/downloads2/452419.jpg

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Ask Cobb. You guys started it in '05 or '06. It's not against the rules and I think it's smart. I've been attending games in Boone for a long time and while the attendance has increased the last 6 years, it hasn't increased by 100%. Before the current renovations, there were hillbillies hanging from the trees and standing on top of Port-a-Potty's in 2007 and KBS announced 28K in a 16,650 seat stadium.

Anyway, there are so many App fans around these boards who became fans in the mid 20 oh's that the perspective gets warped because they don't remember 2003 and 13,800 reported attendance that jumped to 22K in 2005 and 28K in 2007.

I attended all three of those games and there is no way there were twice as many people in '07 as '03.

[AppChicago]

Ask Cobb. You guys started it in '05 or '06. It's not against the rules and I think it's smart. I've been attending games in Boone for a long time and while the attendance has increased the last 6 years, it hasn't increased by 100%. Before the current renovations, there were hillbillies hanging from the trees and standing on top of Port-a-Potty's in 2007 and KBS announced 28K in a 16,650 seat stadium.

Anyway, there are so many App fans around these boards who became fans in the mid 20 oh's that the perspective gets warped because they don't remember 2003 and 13,800 reported attendance that jumped to 22K in 2005 and 28K in 2007.

I attended all three of those games and there is no way there were twice as many people in '07 as '03.

I really don't know. I was at App during those pre-Championship years and it was pretty lean, both in terms of capacity and in terms of attendance. I can't say with certainty that there isn't some inflation, but a game in 2012 and a game in 2002 are totally different climates altogether. I can't swear that it's double, but I think it's plausible.

[Walkon79]

I'm hoping for a sellout on December 1, but probably won't happen. If the Cats get by Nova or Stony Brook, we'll have 18,000 packed in for SAM or Poly I'm guessing. The ESPN3 thing might help attendance as many of us in rural areas of Montana still don't have access, and since we're the Land Grant, that's our fanbase.

[BisonBacker]

Naw, the SDSU game will sell out because right now NDSU has limited seating coupled with overwhelming demand, but that could change. NDSU's situation is not typical for the FCS - in fact, it might be unique.

However, the other reason I don't like regular-season rematches is competitive. Why should NDSU have to beat the same team twice in three games to advance in the playoffs? It's not really fair to SDSU either. Heck, I think that they're good enough that they should have had a first-round bye.

Edit: Regionalization is especially tiresome when you have two top conference teams involved in a rivalry game because the teams end up meeting in the playoffs a lot. It ends up cheapening the rivalry game.

I agree with this. Patty V's excuse was as lame as it could get. Shnepf had it right in the paper Eastern Washington got an early Christmas Present. The top ranked team NDSU got hosed in the pairings. For that matter so did SDSU and Eastern Illinois. As to the attendance comments I have no answers on that other than to say most folks wallets during the holiday season are opened up for gift giving so budgets get stretched. Traveling expenses coupled with tickets and food and lodging to see a playoff game isn't likely in many folks budgets at a time of the year when they are already spread thin.

[asumike83]

Ask Cobb. You guys started it in '05 or '06. It's not against the rules and I think it's smart. I've been attending games in Boone for a long time and while the attendance has increased the last 6 years, it hasn't increased by 100%. Before the current renovations, there were hillbillies hanging from the trees and standing on top of Port-a-Potty's in 2007 and KBS announced 28K in a 16,650 seat stadium.

Anyway, there are so many App fans around these boards who became fans in the mid 20 oh's that the perspective gets warped because they don't remember 2003 and 13,800 reported attendance that jumped to 22K in 2005 and 28K in 2007.

I attended all three of those games and there is no way there were twice as many people in '07 as '03.

It was a long time ago, so I can't say I remember exactly what the stands looked like that day but I know there are a LOT more people there today than back then, twice as many seems reasonable. In 2002-2003, you could walk through a largely empty Stadium lot, head in the front gate 5 minutes before kick-off and have no trouble finding a seat. Now, that lot is packed hours before kick-off and you've got to fight through a crowd to get in the main entrance. As a more relevant comparison, I can say that the crowds at playoff games have unfortunately been just about half of what we see in the regular season over the past few years, with the exception of the National Semifinal games we've hosted.

Based on what I've seen at other stadiums, the way ASU reports attendance is right in line with everyone else. I was at the game in Statesboro (22K) and the crowds at KBS are certainly 5K-8K larger. I was in Chattanooga as well (14K) and have no doubt that we bring twice as many fans in. If App is drastically inflating their attendance figures, they are not alone.

[GlassOnion]

I certainly remember pre- National Champ Appalachian. No upper deck on visitor side, weird aircraft control tower looking architecture posing as a press box..

Back then, the only sections remotely full were the three student sections in the middle. Upper corners of the homeside were always sparse as was the entire east side for a majority of games. Now the student section is nearly always shoulder to shoulder standing up the whole length of the field, homeside is nearly always 90% capacity, as is lower east side, upper deck east side is nearly always full, as are 2000 club seats up top in the press box and suites. The hill used to be packed in 30,000 games, but the endzone seating in the north have thinned it out some.

We went from 16,000 seats 75% full, plus the hill, to 24,000 seats 90% plus full, plus the hill.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

This conversation comes up every year and every year it gets explained:

1. Students are discounted and only "count" as .5 attendance.
2. Season ticket holders buy extra at the beginning of the year, but don't necessarily buy their whole allotment for playoffs which means the 2-6 guests per season ticket holder that does this are not attending.
3. Schools sandbag attendance because they only want to pay the NCAA the minimum bid amount. This makes attendance drop even more for schools who inflate their attendance numbers in the regular season like App has done for the last 5 or 6 years.
4. Now add the drop for holiday plans and money getting tighter near Christmas for travel, etc.
5. Games are televised in later rounds and the weather isn't nice in most of the venues. People stay home.
6. Major schools in small population states (Montana, NDSU, lesser extent Delaware) aren't as affected because they're "the only game in town" anyway.

Take out the last part of #3 if you like. I still think these are 6 logical explanations for the OP's question as to why attendance drops for playoffs.

I don't know about some of you other season ticket guys, but my 5-member group buys 12 season tickets so we can "recruit" new fans (donors and season ticket holders). We don't buy 12 playoff tickets. That's more than a 50% reduction for just my group.

[CHIP72]

I posted the comment shown below in the Nova vs Stony Brook thread, but it is probably more applicable in this thread:

I don't think it is truly an apples to apples comparison when comparing the attendance at Villanova, which at best is the #3 college football team in its area in terms of fan interest (behind Penn State and Temple, and that's only including the Pennsylvania portion of the Philadelphia area) AND is in large pro sports market where interest in the Philadelphia Eagles dwarfs interest in any college football team, with the attendance at Montana, where the football team is not only the primary game in town but one of two primary football teams in the entire state.

Division I-AA teams in Montana, North Dakota, and South Dakota are sort of the equivalent of the biosystems in Australia and New Zealand. In Australia and New Zealand, because certain animals and plants didn't exist like they did in the rest of the world prior to contact by humans in general and Europeans in particular, different animals (particularly different types of birds) and vegetation flourished that were marginalized or pushed out entirely in other parts of the world. Likewise, in the three states I mentioned, there are no Division I-A college football teams and no nearby NFL teams, so the Division I-AA football teams there become the top teams in the state and receive the focus of attention from football fans that generally is given to NFL teams or Division I-A (often BCS) college teams elsewhere. Teams like Montana and North Dakota State are probably going to get better attendance for playoff games because those teams are the focus for an entire state (or at least a large chunk of an entire state) rather than being the focus of a much smaller region that also has its attention partially focused on higher profile (i.e. NFL and Division I-A) teams.

[GlassOnion]

Take out the last part of #3 if you like. I still think these are 6 logical explanations for the OP's question as to why attendance drops for playoffs.

I don't know about some of you other season ticket guys, but my 5-member group buys 12 season tickets so we can "recruit" new fans (donors and season ticket holders). We don't buy 12 playoff tickets. That's more than a 50% reduction for just my group.

App doesnt have to "recruit" new fans, they just come cause we're awesome and arent bombarded with stink and swamp insects 11 months of the year . xcoffeex

[Edge316007]

Attendance for most sports is almost always based on tickets distributed rather than actual physical attendance. That should explain the variance.

[Sonic98]

Attendance is just goin to get worst, with the state of the economy, and Obama raising taxes, I believe fans are going to have to make some tough choices, I've noticed a lot of empty seats at some premire BCS schools, 3 years ago, that would never been the case. Apps been fortunate to have such a strong fan base, but if things don't get better, I fear we will see a dramatic drop off in attendance.

I wasn't aware PRESIDENT Obama was raising taxes on football tickets. I guess Romney could have promised everyone a packed stadium and cheap tickets just like he promised everyone a job and two-dollar gas. People are struggling now. We will see more people at sporting events in general when we're back to have more "play money." The economy will be back. But maybe it has something to do with when the playoff starts or the fact teams from all over the place have to play each other. Maybe the games should start when everyone is back from Thanksgiving break. Maybe the first round should start where the second round usually starts. Just have two rounds after the start of the year instead of one.

[Sonic98]

Sorry, but disagree with the "Economy & Obama Raising Taxes" argument. If Romney kept them lower, the stadiums would be full?

The real answer is that teams (both professional & college) keep wanting to keep making more and more $$$$$$. So they keep raising ticket prices which push out the real fans. How many on this board can afford Yankee season tickets at $1,250? That is $1,250 A SEAT FOR 1 GAME. Now, I am sure you would like to go with someone too, so its really $2,500 for 81 BASEBALL GAMES. That is the most extreme example but with PSL's, minimum giving levels, rising prices for annual losing teams etc, etc, I would rather get my $5 6-pack and sit in front of my HD TV for most ho hum games...

Yeah but people want to have the attitude that we're hating on colleges and pro athletes because we don't want them to "get their money." I don't care if an actor makes 5 million a movie because I can take 10 people to every movie a certain actor comes out with in a year and still not spend 1,000. Try taking just yourself to only the home games of your favorite NFL team and see how much you spend. I doubt doing the games like the basketball playoffs and having the games at neutral or regional sites would much improve attendance.

[Sonic98]

I think the reason attendance drops is because the games get marketed so little by the media that most people don't even realize the games are going on. The regular season schedule is released 6-12 months before the season so people know when the season games are occurring but the playoff bracket is released a week before the game so there is little buildup and hype. ESPN doesn't bother on hyping it, and no other major media company other than TSN bothers to cover it.

I was just going to say the same thing. That I think the FCS playoffs have a marketing problem not a football problem. I also, think maybe each school could try to go more local support for their games.

[Sonic98]

I knew it was only a matter of time before a GSU fan made this comment.

If this is 22K:
http://mw2.google.com/mw-panoramio/photos/medium/13124435.jpg

Then this is most certainly 30K:
http://image.cdnllnwnl.xosnetwork.com/downloads2/452419.jpg


I can't really say that's 30K, but I will take your word for it. I have been in games in some very large stadiums that looked absolutely packed and the attendance numbers never report as high as you think they would. From the looks of that pic there SHOULD BE 30K people there.

[WataugaDave]

App doesnt have to "recruit" new fans, they just come cause we're awesome and arent bombarded with stink and swamp insects 11 months of the year . xcoffeex

And let's be honest, where else are people going to go to watch football? D-II at Lenoir-Rhyne? Go all the way out to WESTERN? We have an entire region pretty much locked up, as opposed to FCS schools in cities that have to compete with the fanbases of FBS teams.

[AppChicago]

And let's be honest, where else are people going to go to watch football? D-II at Lenoir-Rhyne? Go all the way out to WESTERN? We have an entire region pretty much locked up, as opposed to FCS schools in cities that have to compete with the fanbases of FBS teams.

I don't think it has anything to do with the region, to be honest. I'd wager that most of the non-student butts in those seats live in Charlotte, the Triad, the Triangle, etc. with ties to App. I don't think it's just folks from West Jefferson looking for something to do.

[Ivytalk]

Season ticket holders have to pay again, so they don't turn out as much. People don't have an entire off season to plan attendance, so it's more like a last minute thing. Students are dealing with final exams and holidays, so they aren't as hyped up. Add to that the name recognition factor. You're usually playing teams OOC that most of your fans have not heard of or followed all season, so you don't get the kind of rivalry/respected opponent feel of regular season games.

Excellent analysis! I agree 100%.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

App doesnt have to "recruit" new fans, they just come cause we're awesome and arent bombarded with stink and swamp insects 11 months of the year . xcoffeex

My how the hillbilly head has swelled in just 5 short years. Tell it to someone who doesn't remember splintered pine seats and port-a-potties at a "packed" 14K KBSxsmugx

[GlassOnion]

My how the hillbilly head has swelled in just 5 short years. Tell it to someone who doesn't remember splintered pine seats and port-a-potties at a "packed" 14K KBSxsmugx

Yes, the Kidd Brewer of old is fading fast from memories everywhere... but, not to be outdone by Georgia Southern's antiquated success.