"Schedule Strength"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When judging "schedule strength", it seems like the best way to get a "strong schedule" is to put a mid-range or BCS money game on there and schedule patsies otherwise.

Even a blowout loss to a BCS school, or even a close win against a FBS bottom feeder, seems to give you invisible "schedule strength" points, which seem to offset home games against extremely weak D-II/D-III/NAIA opponents or bottom feeder FCS programs.

Why is this? Is this due to computer models rating even the most questionable FBS programs in front of the elite FCS teams? Is this due to human bias that even a win against a 1-11 FBS team has to be good? Is it because expectations are so low for victory, even a field goal against a BCS team had to be "good"?

[TheRevSFA]

Did you post this thread solely because everyone argues that Lehigh played a weak schedule?

[FargoBison]

I'm not sure the computer rankings are all that bad....

http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11590

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Did you post this thread solely because everyone correctly asserts that Lehigh played a weak schedule?

FIFY

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm not sure the computer rankings are all that bad....

http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11590

77 Auburn 2-8
78 Sam Houston St 8-2
79 Montana St 9-1

Really?

Auburn at 2-8 is perceived to still be better than every FCS school save North Dakota State. Anyone who's actually seen Auburn in action knows that's not true.

[FargoBison]

77 Auburn 2-8
78 Sam Houston St 8-2
79 Montana St 9-1

Really?

Do you think they'd do better with Auburn's schedule? I don't.

[TheRevSFA]

77 Auburn 2-8
78 Sam Houston St 8-2
79 Montana St 9-1

Really?

Auburn at 2-8 is perceived to still be better than every FCS school save North Dakota State. Anyone who's actually seen Auburn in action knows that's not true.

Do you really think NDSU or Sam could have a winning season in the SEC? Come on now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you really think NDSU or Sam could have a winning season in the SEC? Come on now.

That's not the question. It's: Is Auburn demonstrably better than SHSU or Montana State or Eastern Washington or.....

[FargoBison]

If NDSU played Auburn I'd consider the game to be a toss-up. Auburn plays in the toughest toughest division of the toughest conference in all of college football.

[DFW HOYA]

If NDSU played Auburn I'd consider the game to be a toss-up. Auburn plays in the toughest toughest division of the toughest conference in all of college football.

If NDSU played Auburn ten times I'd still take the Tigers eight out of 10.

If NDSU played Memphis ten games, it'd be a toss-up.

[FargoBison]

If NDSU played Auburn ten times I'd still take the Tigers eight out of 10.

If NDSU played Memphis ten games, it'd be a toss-up.

NDSU would beat Memphis at least 9 times out of 10 on a neutral field. I'm probably generous on calling Auburn a toss-up though.

[Engineer86]

Do you think they'd do better with Auburn's schedule? I don't.

The nine likely losses would probably not change for one of those two teams playing that schedule, but the three likely wins likely would not either.

[Engineer86]

Do you think they'd do better with Auburn's schedule? I don't.

The nine likely losses would probably not change for one of those two teams playing that schedule, but the three likely wins likely would not either.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's the crux of the issue. North Dakota State can schedule Auburn, South Dakota School of Mines, and Valparaiso. They could lose 30-3 against 2-8 Auburn. "But they got a field goal against an FBS squad!" people croon. Magically, they have "schedule strength" merely because they had an FBS team on there. It completely obscures the other two games.

In the computer polls, the problem is even worse. Your game against the 81st-ranked team completely bolsters your wins against 200-250, win or lose.

[sgt smash]

The nine likely losses would probably not change for one of those two teams playing that schedule, but the three likely wins likely would not either.

What if Auburn was to play USD for the final game? Would that change your prediction?

[NoDak 4 Ever]

This is all ignoring the real issue. Teams do not have to schedule a BCS team in order to get a strong schedule.

The easiest way to a strong schedule is to have all of your conference members fully funded, a large number playing at a consistently high level and proving it in the playoffs.

Montana State didn't schedule a FBS school, NDSU and ISUr scheduled weak FBS opponents and won. Nobody is saying your SoS needs to be in the teens, but the 20's or 30's might help.

[FargoBison]

Here's the crux of the issue. North Dakota State can schedule Auburn, South Dakota School of Mines, and Valparaiso. They could lose 30-3 against 2-8 Auburn. "But they got a field goal against an FBS squad!" people croon. Magically, they have "schedule strength" merely because they had an FBS team on there. It completely obscures the other two games.

In the computer polls, the problem is even worse. Your game against the 81st-ranked team completely bolsters your wins against 200-250, win or lose.

Who cares about the other games when you have an MVFC schedule awaiting NDSU? That team will be vetted against a tough schedule no matter what.

[DFW HOYA]

The easiest way to a strong schedule is to have all of your conference members fully funded, a large number playing at a consistently high level and proving it in the playoffs.

Lehigh is expecting the PL to be in that direction soon. Well, most of them.

[Engineer86]

What if Auburn was to play USD for the final game? Would that change your prediction?

Nice try! Start another thread on the issue you want to bring up

[URMite]

Do you think they'd do better with Auburn's schedule? I don't.

Actually shouldn't that be reversed? Would Auburn have the same record with their schedule? xeyebrowx

[Engineer86]

Who cares about the other games when you have an MVFC schedule awaiting NDSU? That team will be vetted against a tough schedule no matter what.

I can accept this when determining at large bids, as long as there are some games in the conference that are benchmark games. The key being each league needs to be benchmarked and with all the strong teams this year, the PL benchmark is not strong.

My point is that if every team in a power conference schedules a very likely FBS loss, and then DII and weak FCS OOC games, then there is not much to benchmark and the league is rated high based on reputation.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I can accept this when determining at large bids, as long as there are some games in the conference that are benchmark games. The key being each league needs to be benchmarked and with all the strong teams this year, the PL benchmark is not strong.

My point is that if every team in a power conference schedules a very likely FBS loss, and then DII and weak FCS OOC games, then there is not much to benchmark and the league is rated high based on reputation.

There are 3 things you want in an OOC schedule.

1. Money, whether in home games or a FBS check
2. Game reps for everybody, mostly gained in mop up time of a lesser opponent
3. Wins to pad the schedule

If you schedule a non-counter, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

If you schedule 2 FBS teams, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

[URMite]

It seems that a common plan is to play 4 good (7+ wins), 4 mediocre (4-6 wins), and 3 bad teams (3 or less wins).
Nearly all FBS seem to be considered good FCS teams - whether they should be is debatable.
Many teams plan their OOC to attempt to get this result based on the conference games they know they have to play.
This is tougher to do the less good or mediocre teams that appear in your conference that year.

This is also related to the unbalanced schedule issue. Teams should probably try to compensate for a favorable schedule by playing a stronger OOC. But what I don't see is the difference between a good conference opponent and a good non-conference opponent.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There are 3 things you want in an OOC schedule.

1. Money, whether in home games or a FBS check
2. Game reps for everybody, mostly gained in mop up time of a lesser opponent
3. Wins to pad the schedule

If you schedule a non-counter, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

If you schedule 2 FBS teams, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

The first one is dependent upon the school. The PL schools, minus Fordham, appear to care very little about earning money via OOC games. I'm against "money" games.

[Engineer86]

There are 3 things you want in an OOC schedule.

1. Money, whether in home games or a FBS check
2. Game reps for everybody, mostly gained in mop up time of a lesser opponent
3. Wins to pad the schedule

If you schedule a non-counter, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

If you schedule 2 FBS teams, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

This would say that Lehigh scheduled well. All #3. I think if you want an at large bid, you also want to include a forth point. You need to make sure your regular season competition measures up to an acceptable level. That said, I think Liberty was expected to be that benchmark when scheduled.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

The first one is dependent upon the school. The PL schools, minus Fordham, appear to care very little about earning money via OOC games. I'm against "money" games.

Money helps fund the program, gets facilities, scholarships, etc. You can be against money games all you want. Nobody cares.

[URMite]

I can accept this when determining at large bids, as long as there are some games in the conference that are benchmark games. The key being each league needs to be benchmarked and with all the strong teams this year, the PL benchmark is not strong.

My point is that if every team in a power conference schedules a very likely FBS loss, and then DII and weak FCS OOC games, then there is not much to benchmark and the league is rated high based on reputation.

I don't think anyone should be looking at conferences but at teams. You need to be able to benchmark your opponents (and all other team's opponents) not the conference as a whole. Now how to do that is a another question entirely.

[VUCats02]

This Auburn debate is like the same debate that Alabama can beat low tiered NFL teams - no way!!!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Money helps fund the program, gets facilities, scholarships, etc. You can be against money games all you want. Nobody cares.

Money can come from other areas. Most of the public FCS schools simply don't have a lot of money because they're mostly second class citizens in their state. I understand the need for GSU, UNI, NDSU, etc to schedule "money" games. They should not be rewarded for it though from a competitve standout. With that said, I don't consider Colorado State, MTSU, Memphis, CMU etc "money" games. I'm talking 98% of the BCS schools.

[Vitojr130]

Do you think they'd do better with Auburn's schedule? I don't.

I was just going to say this.

[URMite]

I was just going to say this.

But I thought the point was "Should Auburn be counted the same as the two FCS teams for SOS?" So shouldn't that ask how would Auburn do with their schedules, instead of the other way around? May be the same answer but seems a more appropriate question.

[TheRevSFA]

That's not the question. It's: Is Auburn demonstrably better than SHSU or Montana State or Eastern Washington or.....

Has Auburn played tougher competition..that's the question.

Are LSU, Bama, Arkansas, tougher than ISUr, ISUb, YSU...

[PAllen]

There are 3 things you want in an OOC schedule.

1. Money, whether in home games or a FBS check
2. Game reps for everybody, mostly gained in mop up time of a lesser opponent
3. Wins to pad the schedule

If you schedule a non-counter, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

If you schedule 2 FBS teams, you have to pay the piper at the end of the season, that's just how it goes.

This, with the possible additions of exciting the fan base and expanding your recruiting footprint.

[BisonBacker]

Here's the crux of the issue. North Dakota State can schedule Auburn, South Dakota School of Mines, and Valparaiso. They could lose 30-3 against 2-8 Auburn. "But they got a field goal against an FBS squad!" people croon. Magically, they have "schedule strength" merely because they had an FBS team on there. It completely obscures the other two games.

In the computer polls, the problem is even worse. Your game against the 81st-ranked team completely bolsters your wins against 200-250, win or lose.

Good Lord man I like Lehigh I have respect for your program based solely on what you guys were able to do in the playoffs the last few years. But with that said it changes nothing in regards to your conference. You play in a conference full of teams that would get piss pounded in the MVFC, the Big Sky, the SoCon and basically every other conference. How can you deny that the team you just lost to and will get your conferences Bid lost to a team from the MVFC that has yet to win a conference game? Please answer that question. Colgate lost to USD. USD is not a good team right now. Yes teams can improve over the course of the year but still not going to change the correct observation that the PL is a weak league full of what other conferences view as cupcakes. Like it or not and all the pissing and moaning about other schools and how they are viewed means nothing when you talk about the PL. It is what it is a weak league.

[asumike83]

NDSU would beat Memphis at least 9 times out of 10 on a neutral field. I'm probably generous on calling Auburn a toss-up though.

No question that NDSU, SHSU and probably all of the top 10-15 FCS teams could handle Memphis.

Auburn is another story, I think they'd beat any FCS team you put in front of them. They are getting smacked around in the SEC because of poor coaching and inexperience but they are loaded with top-flight talent. They have had top 10 recruiting classes for at least 4-5 straight years. I think their depth up front would be too much to handle for a team with 22 less scholarship players, no matter how good they are.

[LEHIGH61]

Good Lord man I like Lehigh I have respect for your program based solely on what you guys were able to do in the playoffs the last few years. But with that said it changes nothing in regards to your conference. You play in a conference full of teams that would get piss pounded in the MVFC, the Big Sky, the SoCon and basically every other conference. How can you deny that the team you just lost to and will get your conferences Bid lost to a team from the MVFC that has yet to win a conference game? Please answer that question. Colgate lost to USD. USD is not a good team right now. Yes teams can improve over the course of the year but still not going to change the correct observation that the PL is a weak league full of what other conferences view as cupcakes. Like it or not and all the pissing and moaning about other schools and how they are viewed means nothing when you talk about the PL. It is what it is a weak league.Well, the only three times Lehigh (in the so-called weak league with teams viewed as "cupcakes")played MVFC teams, they won twice. Back in 2000, Lehigh traveled to play super-duper top 5 Western Illinois and had to listen to degrading comments from the Western Illinois before the game. They "percieved" that Lehigh was a cupcake. Lehigh won 37-7! As I watched the game, I couldn't help but laugh because Western Illinois was so confused they looked like they never played a "real" football team before..

Then in 2010 they had to play Northern Iowa in their dome. Northern Iowa was heavily favored. Final Score - Lehigh 14, Northern Iowa 7.

Last year we lost to North Dakota State without our true All-American Ryan Spadola and lost 24-0. Despite the fact that we were shut out by an excellent defense, from what I saw we actually played tougher than the other teams that NDSU defeated on their road to the NC.

You mention the so-called power conferences and don't include the CAA. The CAA is the best conference in the country. MTFC, you are no CAA. The CAA is in the eastern part of the country as is the Patriot League. Lehigh defeated the CAA champion in the playoffs last season. You see, you might not know as much about the teams in this part of the country than you think. Your "perceptions" may be flawed. We play good FCS football here, and I am sick of your so-called expertise in judging us. NDSU is on a high now, but don't let it go to your head. Geez, you barely got by Missouri State!

[LEHIGH61]

AS YOU THINK.

[wapiti]

Well, the only three times Lehigh (in the so-called weak league with teams viewed as "cupcakes")played MVFC teams, they won twice. Back in 2000, Lehigh traveled to play super-duper top 5 Western Illinois and had to listen to degrading comments from the Western Illinois before the game. They "percieved" that Lehigh was a cupcake. Lehigh won 37-7! As I watched the game, I couldn't help but laugh because Western Illinois was so confused they looked like they never played a "real" football team before..

Then in 2010 they had to play Northern Iowa in their dome. Northern Iowa was heavily favored. Final Score - Lehigh 14, Northern Iowa 7.

Last year we lost to North Dakota State without our true All-American Ryan Spadola and lost 24-0. Despite the fact that we were shut out by an excellent defense, from what I saw we actually played tougher than the other teams that NDSU defeated on their road to the NC.

You mention the so-called power conferences and don't include the CAA. The CAA is the best conference in the country. MTFC, you are no CAA. The CAA is in the eastern part of the country as is the Patriot League. Lehigh defeated the CAA champion in the playoffs last season. You see, you might not know as much about the teams in this part of the country than you think. Your "perceptions" may be flawed. We play good FCS football here, and I am sick of your so-called expertise in judging us. NDSU is on a high now, but don't let it go to your head. Geez, you barely got by Missouri State!

So what has Lehigh done THIS year to deserve a playoff spot??? Beat Holy Cross (1-9) by 1, Princeton (5-4) by 3, Liberty (5-5) by 2, Fordham (6-4) by 3, Georgetown (5-5) by 3, Lehigh's best win this year is against Liberty and that is only marginally good. Lehigh has too many close games against weak opponents.

[Sammy94]

Do you really think NDSU or Sam could have a winning season in the SEC? Come on now.

Kliff may think Sam can :D

A&M Offensive Coordinator Kliff Kingsbury

REPORTER: What do you expect from Sam Houston this week?

Kingsbury: Really Aggressive Defense, probably the most aggressive we've seen. They walk down your face, they're top five in defense in their division, very well coached, Coach Fritz and Coach Stoker have done a great job motivating. They played for it last year, the National Championship, and they'll probably play for it again. So, we gotta show up and play well.

REPORTER: Even more aggressive than the defenses you've seen in the SEC?

Kingsbury: I would say so, you'll see it on Saturday, they walk down your face and make you earn it every snap. They have a great group, they have two corners that are really great players.

[wow]

Good Lord man I like Lehigh I have respect for your program based solely on what you guys were able to do in the playoffs the last few years. But with that said it changes nothing in regards to your conference. You play in a conference full of teams that would get piss pounded in the MVFC, the Big Sky, the SoCon and basically every other conference. How can you deny that the team you just lost to and will get your conferences Bid lost to a team from the MVFC that has yet to win a conference game? Please answer that question. Colgate lost to USD. USD is not a good team right now. Yes teams can improve over the course of the year but still not going to change the correct observation that the PL is a weak league full of what other conferences view as cupcakes. Like it or not and all the pissing and moaning about other schools and how they are viewed means nothing when you talk about the PL. It is what it is a weak league.

All I hear is crickets.

[danefan]

So what has Lehigh done THIS year to deserve a playoff spot??? Beat Holy Cross (1-9) by 1, Princeton (5-4) by 3, Liberty (5-5) by 2, Fordham (6-4) by 3, Georgetown (5-5) by 3, Lehigh's best win this year is against Liberty and that is only marginally good. Lehigh has too many close games against weak opponents.

Lets sum up Lehigh's credentials for the at-large. I think this is bascially what the Committee will look at.

This assumes Lehigh wins this weekend.

Tangibles:
10 DI wins
1 loss to unranked Colgate
Avg. Margin of Victory - 9 pts.
No wins against ranked teams.
Best win is over a currently 5-5 Liberty (this might gain slightly more weight if Liberty wins the AQ)
Currently no wins over any playoff participants (this would change if Liberty wins the AQ)
No wins over any teams from the CAA, Socon, MVFC, or Big Sky (aka the "Power Conferences")
Ranked in the TSN and Coaches' Poll.
Massey SOS - 82nd in FCS

Intangibles:
Recent Playoff success


Wins over Towson and UNI
Lehigh is the only program to reach the FCS playoffs, and win a game, in each decade. Reached the title game


The Patriot League is a middle-of the road conference in FCS - not bad, but not top notch.


Colgate has a reached the title game in the last decade and has TWO Payton winners to their name
Holy Cross has had a Heisman finalist, fielded arguably the greatest 1AA/FCS team in history.
Laafayette has had very good teams.
Fordham has put guys in the NFL



Am I missing anything? Am I off base on anything above?

Is that an at-large resume?

[Go...gate]

Lehigh is expecting the PL to be in that direction soon. Well, most of them.

Funny thing is that you wonder how much of a difference scholarships will really make at this level. Fordham has had some problems even with scholarships, though they have performed better this season.

[Go...gate]

Lets sum up Lehigh's credentials for the at-large. I think this is bascially what the Committee will look at.

This assumes Lehigh wins this weekend.

Tangibles:
10 DI wins
1 loss to unranked Colgate
Avg. Margin of Victory - 9 pts.
No wins against ranked teams.
Best win is over a currently 5-5 Liberty (this might gain slightly more weight if Liberty wins the AQ)
Currently no wins over any playoff participants (this would change if Liberty wins the AQ)
No wins over any teams from the CAA, Socon, MVFC, or Big Sky (aka the "Power Conferences")
Ranked in the TSN and Coaches' Poll.
Massey SOS - 82nd in FCS

Intangibles:
Recent Playoff success


Wins over Towson and UNI
Lehigh is the only program to reach the FCS playoffs, and win a game, in each decade. Reached the title game


The Patriot League is a middle-of the road conference in FCS - not bad, but not top notch.


Colgate has a reached the title game in the last decade and has TWO Payton winners to their name
Holy Cross has had a Heisman finalist, fielded arguably the greatest 1AA/FCS team in history.
Lafayette has had very good teams.
Fordham has put guys in the NFL



Am I missing anything? Am I off base on anything above?

Is that an at-large resume?

Pretty good summary, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd add that only four teams in all of FCS this season can get to 10 D-I wins.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I'd add that only four teams in all of FCS this season can get to 10 D-I wins.

There's a reason for that.

[kalm]

Lets sum up Lehigh's credentials for the at-large. I think this is bascially what the Committee will look at.

This assumes Lehigh wins this weekend.

Tangibles:
10 DI wins
1 loss to unranked Colgate
Avg. Margin of Victory - 9 pts.
No wins against ranked teams.
Best win is over a currently 5-5 Liberty (this might gain slightly more weight if Liberty wins the AQ)
Currently no wins over any playoff participants (this would change if Liberty wins the AQ)
No wins over any teams from the CAA, Socon, MVFC, or Big Sky (aka the "Power Conferences")
Ranked in the TSN and Coaches' Poll.
Massey SOS - 82nd in FCS

Intangibles:
Recent Playoff success


Wins over Towson and UNI
Lehigh is the only program to reach the FCS playoffs, and win a game, in each decade. Reached the title game


The Patriot League is a middle-of the road conference in FCS - not bad, but not top notch.


Colgate has a reached the title game in the last decade and has TWO Payton winners to their name
Holy Cross has had a Heisman finalist, fielded arguably the greatest 1AA/FCS team in history.
Laafayette has had very good teams.
Fordham has put guys in the NFL



Am I missing anything? Am I off base on anything above?

Is that an at-large resume?


No...Danefan...it's not.

But fair and unbiased analysis as usual.

Lehigh fans...Your conference, which makes up the majority of your schedule, is used by us westerners to smack CAA and SoCon teams who have the luxury of scheduling you guys and other non or partial schollie conferences for OOC. This occurs while we have to schedule western DII's who fund scholarships to the same if not greater level than you, have rosters with Pac 12 and MWC drop down talent that didn't pan out, and wins which we don't get credit for.

Please stop....

[DFW HOYA]

Am I missing anything? Am I off base on anything above?


Lehigh has a "brand name" the committee recognizes and respects. If this was Bucknell at 10-1, it might be a tougher sell.

[kalm]

Lehigh has a "brand name" the committee recognizes and respects. If this was Bucknell at 10-1, it might be a tougher sell.

So now we're justifying AL's by brand name?

[Nickels]

So now we're justifying AL's by brand name?
Exactly, that's just silly.

[NDSU92]

When judging "schedule strength", it seems like the best way to get a "strong schedule" is to put a mid-range or BCS money game on there and schedule patsies otherwise.

Even a blowout loss to a BCS school, or even a close win against a FBS bottom feeder, seems to give you invisible "schedule strength" points, which seem to offset home games against extremely weak D-II/D-III/NAIA opponents or bottom feeder FCS programs.

Why is this? Is this due to computer models rating even the most questionable FBS programs in front of the elite FCS teams? Is this due to human bias that even a win against a 1-11 FBS team has to be good? Is it because expectations are so low for victory, even a field goal against a BCS team had to be "good"?

The team that is going to win your conference lost by two possessions to SOUTH DAKOTA.

[danefan]

Lehigh has a "brand name" the committee recognizes and respects. If this was Bucknell at 10-1, it might be a tougher sell.

The brand name theory is really just a by product of recent playoffs wins, which I do think matter and I have included in the above.

[ITmonarch10]

Lets sum up Lehigh's credentials for the at-large. I think this is bascially what the Committee will look at.

This assumes Lehigh wins this weekend.

Tangibles:
10 DI wins
1 loss to unranked Colgate
Avg. Margin of Victory - 9 pts.
No wins against ranked teams.
Best win is over a currently 5-5 Liberty (this might gain slightly more weight if Liberty wins the AQ)
Currently no wins over any playoff participants (this would change if Liberty wins the AQ)
No wins over any teams from the CAA, Socon, MVFC, or Big Sky (aka the "Power Conferences")
Ranked in the TSN and Coaches' Poll.
Massey SOS - 82nd in FCS

Intangibles:
Recent Playoff success


Wins over Towson and UNI
Lehigh is the only program to reach the FCS playoffs, and win a game, in each decade. Reached the title game


The Patriot League is a middle-of the road conference in FCS - not bad, but not top notch.


Colgate has a reached the title game in the last decade and has TWO Payton winners to their name
Holy Cross has had a Heisman finalist, fielded arguably the greatest 1AA/FCS team in history.
Laafayette has had very good teams.
Fordham has put guys in the NFL



Am I missing anything? Am I off base on anything above?

Is that an at-large resume?

The only problem I have with this is maybe your definition of "middle of the road". You have the big 4 followed by SLC followed by OVC. The gap between SLC/OVC and the rest of the conferences is huge by any poll/computer rating. It may sound demeaning ,but calling the patriot league "middle of the road" is insulting to the SLC/OVC . There is a fissure between the 5/6th SLC/OVC and 7th/8th Ivy/Patriot as far as average team quality goes.

[Doc QB]

All I hear is crickets.

OK, I'll bite...you hear crickets because that comment is the most stupid arguement out there to exclude Lehigh. No one denies USD beat Colgate. How can you? And that was put in bold italics? It was one game. Lehigh gets beat by a team who lost to a hapless MVFC team. One game. If you think the committee will put stock in that one fact over a plethora of much better reasoned arguments to exlude Lehigh, rather than focus on the merits of some 8-3 teams with better resume (who I think should be included over LU) you are an idiot. Sorry.

[LehighU11]

Oh you Eastern Washington people are so amusing. Last time I checked the Big Sky didn't exactly shine in last year's playoffs and that likely occur again this year. I would place the top two teams from the MVFC, CAA, SoCon, and even the Southland well ahead of yours when it comes to potential playoff success. EWU is sleeping its way into the playoffs (see S Utah and UC Davis) and will lose the first road game they play away from that red eyesore. Montana St., your likely league champ who barely got by Drake, will choke as usual and not make it to the semis either. The MVFC and CAA are significantly stronger from top to bottom than the Big Sky. Stop pretending you are still the elite league, especially with the Griz in crash and burn mode.

For the record, I don't believe the PL deserves a second playoff spot this year.

[CHIP72]

I personally think the Patriot League is weak in 2012, but contrary to what some people from tumbleweed country say on here who don't seem to understand that many Patriot League schools have academic traditions that have existed longer than some of the tumbleweed states have been part of the United States, that doesn't mean the Patriot League is weak every year. Truth be told, the Patriot League is usually a solid, middle-of-the-pack league, not as good as the elite FCS/I-AA leagues even in its good years but usually a good enough league that its champion or maybe top two teams can play with just about any FCS team in the country. However, this season IMO is not one of those seasons, not just based on Lehigh's results but pretty much the entire Patriot League's results.

[Stonewall D]

Here's one: Why didn't ODU play an FBS team? They are the only CAA team this year to not schedule an FBS team.

[NDSU92]

I personally think the Patriot League is weak in 2012, but contrary to what some people from tumbleweed country say on here who don't seem to understand that many Patriot League schools have academic traditions that have existed longer than some of the tumbleweed states have been part of the United States, that doesn't mean the Patriot League is weak every year. Truth be told, the Patriot League is usually a solid, middle-of-the-pack league, not as good as the elite FCS/I-AA leagues even in its good years but usually a good enough league that its champion or maybe top two teams can play with just about any FCS team in the country. However, this season IMO is not one of those seasons, not just based on Lehigh's results but pretty much the entire Patriot League's results.

So what does the Patriot League's academic traditions have to do with how bad they are as a football conference this year?

[CHIP72]

So what does the Patriot League's academic traditions have to do with how bad they are as a football conference this year?

What does rooting for a university in a state with more tumbleweeds than people have to do with insulting the fact that some schools emphasize their academic traditions?

[kalm]

Oh you Eastern Washington people are so amusing. Last time I checked the Big Sky didn't exactly shine in last year's playoffs and that likely occur again this year. I would place the top two teams from the MVFC, CAA, SoCon, and even the Southland well ahead of yours when it comes to potential playoff success. EWU is sleeping its way into the playoffs (see S Utah and UC Davis) and will lose the first road game they play away from that red eyesore. Montana St., your likely league champ who barely got by Drake, will choke as usual and not make it to the semis either. The MVFC and CAA are significantly stronger from top to bottom than the Big Sky. Stop pretending you are still the elite league, especially with the Griz in crash and burn mode.

For the record, I don't believe the PL deserves a second playoff spot this year.

You're right! Last year was the first since 2007 that a BSC team wasn't in the NC game. We only had two teams in the quarters and one in the semi's. The conference no doubt suffered from an EWU team, perhaps more talented than this year's, being decimated by injuries and starting out in a hole they couldn't climb out of! That's the thin line of separation in a power conference between NC contender and missing the playoffs. You could literally lump Sac St, UM, and SUU into that category this year!

And for the record...I agree that the PL doesn't deserve a playoff team this year. But if Lehigh gets in as the second team, I'll be routing for them to upset teams from power conferences. It's good for the division...just like you guys fully funding scholarships and getting more competitive in general!

[kalm]

What does rooting for a university in a state with more tumbleweeds than people have to do with insulting the fact that some schools emphasize their academic traditions?

Personally...I rate states with more tumbleweeds than people ahead of academic traditions...but that's just me! xcoffeex

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The team that is going to win your conference lost by two possessions to SOUTH DAKOTA.

Which has absolutely no bearing on Lehigh's OOC schedule.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

What does rooting for a university in a state with more tumbleweeds than people have to do with insulting the fact that some schools emphasize their academic traditions?

Because this website is Any Given Saturday, not Any Given Tuesday in English class. This is a football forum and your phony superiority about academics doesn't mean squat. By the way, Western Pennsylvania looks a lot like a hilly North Dakota.

That team we root for has won more playoff games in the last two years than the Patriot League has in the last 5.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

[NDSU92]

What does rooting for a university in a state with more tumbleweeds than people have to do with insulting the fact that some schools emphasize their academic traditions?

What does the team that anybody roots for have anything to do with it? Look at all of the unbiased computer rankings and let me know how far your academic traditions have gotten you this season. BTW on a serious note I find it encouraging that schools are still proud of their academia, what I was getting as was that this is a football discussion in a football forum, not a pissing contest.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Back to the main topic.

What's the difference between these two schedules when you get right down to it?

Auburn, South Dakota School of Mines, Valparaiso, go 2-1
Maine, Columbia, Central Connecticut State, go 3-0

Both teams met expectations.

But School #2 is crucified for having a "easy schedule" when it's abundantly clear that the FCS OOC games from School #1 are not just bad, they're pathetic, but it's masked by the presence of a money game on the schedule - and even though Auburn is 2-8, it's the equivalent of playing a North Dakota State. Not only that, you get paid, and nobody cares if you win or lose. You just get "schedule strength".

[NDSU92]

Which has absolutely no bearing on Lehigh's OOC schedule.

I understand that, but it is Lehigh's problem that they:
1. Didn't schedule better out of conference games.
2. Aren't in a better conference.
3. Don't fund more scholarships.
4. Didn't win all of their conference games.
5. Didn't win games against horrible (by playoff standards) opponents by more points.

And I'm sick of their fans making it everyone else's problems.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And I'm sick of their fans making it everyone else's problems.

Am I mistaken, or did I force you to type this response and click "Reply"?

[kalm]

Back to the main topic.

What's the difference between these two schedules when you get right down to it?

Auburn, South Dakota School of Mines, Valparaiso, go 2-1
Maine, Columbia, Central Connecticut State, go 3-0

Both teams met expectations.

But School #2 is crucified for having a "easy schedule" when it's abundantly clear that the FCS OOC games from School #1 are not just bad, they're pathetic, but it's masked by the presence of a money game on the schedule - and even though Auburn is 2-8, it's the equivalent of playing a North Dakota State. Not only that, you get paid, and nobody cares if you win or lose. You just get "schedule strength".

You're clearly in love with your own idea here.

There's not much difference between the two schedules but those schedules are hypothetical. Try comparing the OOC's of two REAL teams vying for an at-large this year and also throw in the conference schedule.

[NDSU92]

Am I mistaken, or did I force you to type this response and click "Reply"?

Sorry just seems like every thread I go through the effort of reading from beginning to end seems to have multiple Lehigh fans insinuating that strength of schedule means nothing.

[FargoBison]

I've always liked the PL, Lehigh just picked a bad year to schedule the way they did and it didn't help that the league didn't do anything to help pick them up. It is just hard to fathom that a team that doesn't even have a win vs a top 50 GPI team should be getting an at-large this year.

My opinion is always that the at-large spots should go to the most battle tested teams, teams that go out and challenge themselves and come out of it with three losses or less. It is hard to listen to people argue that Lehigh challenged themselves when the best team they scheduled was Liberty.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry just seems like every thread I go through the effort of reading from beginning to end seems to have multiple Lehigh fans insinuating that strength of schedule means nothing.

Clearly I'm making you go through the effort of reading threads. I must be more amazing than I think.

[LeeshaJo]

I will say this though, were I a Lehigh fan it would be VERY frustrating to see your team go out and do what they are supposed to do, win on the field, and then have everyone else say that no matter what your team did that year it wasn't going to be good enough. So I understand why they are pushing their record, it all they have to hang their hats on at this point. They can't change the schedule their team plays or how many Schollys they give out. All they can do is support the team on the field against the opponents they face.

Personally, I have a feeling they are going to get a bid, probably at the expense of my Jacks.

[LehighU11]

Because this website is Any Given Saturday, not Any Given Tuesday in English class. This is a football forum and your phony superiority about academics doesn't mean squat. By the way, Western Pennsylvania looks a lot like a hilly North Dakota.

That team we root for has won more playoff games in the last two years than the Patriot League has in the last 5.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk 2

While academics doesn't mean much out on the field, it does impact our scheduling and historical ties to the Ivy League. Agree that there is no need for someone to go attacking sensible people from respectable states and that there isn't much out in Western PA, including Patriot League institutions.

Interesting fact: Lehigh has a greater endowment (1.07 billion) than the entire MVFC combined (10 schools, 889 million). We have a very dedicated alumni base that cares tremendously for our university, which sometimes results in some "heated" exchanges here with people ignorant of the academic and football histories at the four major PL programs.

[NDSU92]

Clearly I'm making you go through the effort of reading threads. I must be more amazing than I think.

Honestly this is what I'm talking about. Read what I posted. Did I say anything about you making me read threads? No, I didn't. Take your crummy attitude and go to bed. Does Lehigh deserve to make the playoffs at 10-1? I would say yes, otherwise I'd start rethinking the reasons why I love FCS. Does Lehigh deserve a seed if they win on Saturday? No, Lehigh chose to wait until the playoffs to prove themselves to be as good as the other teams that will be in the playoff field and that's their fault and no one else's.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Honestly this is what I'm talking about. Read what I posted. Did I say anything about you making me read threads? No, I didn't. Take your crummy attitude and go to bed. Does Lehigh deserve to make the playoffs at 10-1? I would say yes, otherwise I'd start rethinking the reasons why I love FCS. Does Lehigh deserve a seed if they win on Saturday? No, Lehigh chose to wait until the playoffs to prove themselves to be as good as the other teams that will be in the playoff field and that's their fault and no one else's.

I don't think anyone is arguing about Lehigh having a seed at this point.

[Professor Chaos]

I will say this though, were I a Lehigh fan it would be VERY frustrating to see your team go out and do what they are supposed to do, win on the field, and then have everyone else say that no matter what your team did that year it wasn't going to be good enough. So I understand why they are pushing their record, it all they have to hang their hats on at this point. They can't change the schedule their team plays or how many Schollys they give out. All they can do is support the team on the field against the opponents they face.

Personally, I have a feeling they are going to get a bid, probably at the expense of my Jacks.
I think that's very unlikely that the committee values a 10 win Lehigh higher than an 8 win SDSU (provided both teams take care of business on Saturday). It's more likely that a 10 win Lehigh bumps a 7 win Indiana St although I'd argue not even that should happen.

[LeeshaJo]

I think that's very unlikely that the committee values a 10 win Lehigh higher than an 8 win SDSU (provided both teams take care of business on Saturday). It's more likely that a 10 win Lehigh bumps a 7 win Indiana St although I'd argue not even that should happen.

For some reason, SDSU has gotten very little respect this year for the season they have put together. I am not talking in the MVFC I am talking more east coast, etc. Still getting a lot of 20-25 rankings. I guess I am just a bit leery with all of the teams out their fighting for those last spots, that even if SDSU does take the Yotes to the woodshed this weekend, we will get left on the cutting floor. Esp. when you see the list of the schools represented by the committee.

[Professor Chaos]

For some reason, SDSU has gotten very little respect this year for the season they have put together. I am not talking in the MVFC I am talking more east coast, etc. Still getting a lot of 20-25 rankings. I guess I am just a bit leery with all of the teams out their fighting for those last spots, that even if SDSU does take the Yotes to the woodshed this weekend, we will get left on the cutting floor. Esp. when you see the list of the schools represented by the committee.
I wouldn't put a lot of stock in the TSN and Coach's poll, I don't think the committee does. See Eastern Kentucky in 2011. A 6-2 mark in the MVFC along with a top 10 GPI will have the Jacks in comfortably IMO, the more I look at the rest of the field the more I think they you may even get a 1st round bye.

[89rabbit]

Good Lord man I like Lehigh I have respect for your program based solely on what you guys were able to do in the playoffs the last few years. But with that said it changes nothing in regards to your conference. You play in a conference full of teams that would get piss pounded in the MVFC, the Big Sky, the SoCon and basically every other conference. How can you deny that the team you just lost to and will get your conferences Bid lost to a team from the MVFC that has yet to win a conference game? Please answer that question. Colgate lost to USD. USD is not a good team right now. Yes teams can improve over the course of the year but still not going to change the correct observation that the PL is a weak league full of what other conferences view as cupcakes. Like it or not and all the pissing and moaning about other schools and how they are viewed means nothing when you talk about the PL. It is what it is a weak league.


This xnodx

MVFC
North Dakota State 6-1 9-1
South Dakota State 5-2 7-3
Illinois State 5-2 8-2
Indiana State 5-2 7-3
Southern Illinois 4-3 5-5
Youngstown State 3-4 6-4
Northern Iowa 3-4 4-6
Missouri State 3-4 3-7
Western Illinois 1-6 3-7
South Dakota 0-7 1-9


Colgate @ USD = USD 31 Colgate 21

PL

Colgate 5-0 7-3
Lehigh 3-1 9-1
Georgetown 2-2 5-5
Lafayette 2-2 5-5
Holy Cross 1-3 1-9
Bucknell 0-5 2-8
Fordham === 6-4

[89rabbit]

So what has Lehigh done THIS year to deserve a playoff spot??? Beat Holy Cross (1-9) by 1, Princeton (5-4) by 3, Liberty (5-5) by 2, Fordham (6-4) by 3, Georgetown (5-5) by 3, Lehigh's best win this year is against Liberty and that is only marginally good. Lehigh has too many close games against weak opponents.

and this.

[89rabbit]

I will say this though, were I a Lehigh fan it would be VERY frustrating to see your team go out and do what they are supposed to do, win on the field, and then have everyone else say that no matter what your team did that year it wasn't going to be good enough. So I understand why they are pushing their record, it all they have to hang their hats on at this point. They can't change the schedule their team plays or how many Schollys they give out. All they can do is support the team on the field against the opponents they face.

Personally, I have a feeling they are going to get a bid, probably at the expense of my Jacks.

They needed to beat Colgate and they were in. They didn't get it done. End of story.

[WileECoyote06]

I think that's very unlikely that the committee values a 10 win Lehigh higher than an 8 win SDSU (provided both teams take care of business on Saturday). It's more likely that a 10 win Lehigh bumps a 7 win Indiana St although I'd argue not even that should happen.

Why is SDSU's resume valued more than Indiana State's? They have a head to head win, but their SOS is worse (.406 to .539), they don't have a signature win, and they have a worse loss.

Similarly to the case of Villanova against Richmond, H-2-H might be negated.

[wow]

Why is SDSU's resume valued more than Indiana State's? They have a head to head win, but their SOS is worse (.406 to .539), they don't have a signature win, and they have a worse loss.

Similarly to the case of Villanova against Richmond, H-2-H might be negated.

I believe you may have answered your own question.

More wins, higher conference finish, and head to head. Pretty hard to argue, IMO. If the two teams played in different leagues and the SOS played out that way, different story.

[Stonewall D]

I've always liked the PL, Lehigh just picked a bad year to schedule the way they did....

Let's say Lehigh played a Big East team and lost. The argument would still be Lehigh did not schedule enough tough teams and they should be out of the playoffs. On the other hand, if Lehigh's endowment is so great, why doesn't Lehigh fund scholarships or move to a different league that allows more scholarships? I think a CAA team would like to schedule an OOC game against Lehigh. Either way, Lehigh should be in if it wins this Saturday.

[Engineer86]

Let's say Lehigh played a Big East team and lost. The argument would still be Lehigh did not schedule enough tough teams and they should be out of the playoffs. On the other hand, if Lehigh's endowment is so great, why doesn't Lehigh fund scholarships or move to a different league that allows more scholarships? I think a CAA team would like to schedule an OOC game against Lehigh. Either way, Lehigh should be in if it wins this Saturday.

In the case of Villanova, no. And in the case of Delaware, only if we play at there place, which is a joke. So that basic assumption is not true for the local CAA. We do have UNH again next year, which is good. I am not sure why we do not have games with Towson, but that might be related to their prior history with the PL. also we have not played the VA schools in a while. We should be trying that.

[TheRevSFA]

Kliff may think Sam can :D

A&M Offensive Coordinator Kliff Kingsbury

REPORTER: What do you expect from Sam Houston this week?

Kingsbury: Really Aggressive Defense, probably the most aggressive we've seen. They walk down your face, they're top five in defense in their division, very well coached, Coach Fritz and Coach Stoker have done a great job motivating. They played for it last year, the National Championship, and they'll probably play for it again. So, we gotta show up and play well.

REPORTER: Even more aggressive than the defenses you've seen in the SEC?

Kingsbury: I would say so, you'll see it on Saturday, they walk down your face and make you earn it every snap. They have a great group, they have two corners that are really great players.

Yeah I saw that. I think he got hit on the head one too many times getting his guns up at Tech.

Don't get me wrong, Sam's got a hell of a defense, but more aggressive than other SEC defenses....uhhhhhhh

[DSUrocks07]

Personally...I rate states with more tumbleweeds than people ahead of academic traditions...but that's just me! xcoffeex

I always hated that argument. School B gets competitive in a sport School A usually excels at. School B trash talks School A. School A destroys School B in a matchup. School B talks about how their academics are better than School A. xthumbsdownx

It's a complete copout.

[DSUrocks07]

In the case of Villanova, no. And in the case of Delaware, only if we play at there place, which is a joke. So that basic assumption is not true for the local CAA. We do have UNH again next year, which is good. I am not sure why we do not have games with Towson, but that might be related to their prior history with the PL. also we have not played the VA schools in a while. We should be trying that.

Personally I would love to see Delaware State play Lehigh. But that would "weaken their schedule" right?

[MacThor]

Why is SDSU's resume valued more than Indiana State's? They have a head to head win, but their SOS is worse (.406 to .539), they don't have a signature win, and they have a worse loss.

Similarly to the case of Villanova against Richmond, H-2-H might be negated.

Richmond's SOS is slightly worse than VU and they don't have a worse loss.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Personally I would love to see Delaware State play Lehigh. But that would "weaken their schedule" right?

According to the other people here? Yes. However, I'd like to see Del State on the schedule, even in a home-and-home, because that's a doable trip for me and I've never been to your stadium.

Fun fact: when was the last time Lehigh played a schedule that didn't contain all Division I opponents?

Answer: 1986, when they last played West Chester (PA), in their first year in the Patriot League.

How many other FCS teams can say the same?

[TheRevSFA]

According to the other people here? Yes. However, I'd like to see Del State on the schedule, even in a home-and-home, because that's a doable trip for me and I've never been to your stadium.

Fun fact: when was the last time Lehigh played a schedule that didn't contain all Division I opponents?

Answer: 1986, when they last played West Chester (PA), in their first year in the Patriot League.

How many other FCS teams can say the same?

Great. We need a fourth OOC game next year. Lehigh vs SFA. It'll go nicely with Texas Tech, Weber State, and Montana State

[Mr. C]

This Auburn debate is like the same debate that Alabama can beat low tiered NFL teams - no way!!!

I attended a game at Auburn when the Tommy Tuberville era began in 1999. That War Eagle/Tiger team was better than the current one and it still came down to one play at the end for Auburn to beat Appalachian State on a late touchdown bomb off a blown coverage. If App had not fumbled away a TD as a player was crossing the goal line and not had issues in the kicking game that night, it would not have even been close. Auburn would have lost. There are a handful, maybe more of FCS teams that could beat Auburn this season. Towson played LSU close and scored more points than Auburn a week after Auburn had pushed LSU to the limit. And that was maybe Auburn's best performance of the season.

The Alabama over an NFL team argument was just plain goofy.

[STACCATS]

Oh you Eastern Washington people are so amusing. Last time I checked the Big Sky didn't exactly shine in last year's playoffs and that likely occur again this year. I would place the top two teams from the MVFC, CAA, SoCon, and even the Southland well ahead of yours when it comes to potential playoff success. EWU is sleeping its way into the playoffs (see S Utah and UC Davis) and will lose the first road game they play away from that red eyesore. Montana St., your likely league champ who barely got by Drake, will choke as usual and not make it to the semis either. The MVFC and CAA are significantly stronger from top to bottom than the Big Sky. Stop pretending you are still the elite league, especially with the Griz in crash and burn mode.

For the record, I don't believe the PL deserves a second playoff spot this year.

You mean the same crash and burn Griz who thumped Liberty and South Dakota? Liberty is the PL's best OCC win (Lehigh needed (14) 4th quarter points to beat almighty Liberty by 2) and Liberty woudln't even win 2 games in the BSC. And South Dakota got boat raced out of WaGriz stadium, yet USD seemed to handle the PL champ fine.

The same weak Big Sky Conference who has 4 wins over FBS schools? An OCC win over Stephen F. Austin? the 12th place BSC team losing at South Dakota State 8-12? A middle of the pack (in terms of BSC) griz team that went down to the wire agains SoCon champ App St? You mean that weak league?

[Engineer86]

You mean the same crash and burn Griz who thumped Liberty and South Dakota? Liberty is the PL's best OCC win (Lehigh needed (14) 4th quarter points to beat almighty Liberty by 2) and Liberty woudln't even win 2 games in the BSC. And South Dakota got boat raced out of WaGriz stadium, yet USD seemed to handle the PL champ fine.

The same weak Big Sky Conference who has 4 wins over FBS schools? An OCC win over Stephen F. Austin? the 12th place BSC team losing at South Dakota State 8-12? A middle of the pack (in terms of BSC) griz team that went down to the wire agains SoCon champ App St? You mean that weak league?

Lehigh was up 14-0 and driving for a third score, when two terrible calls on 3rd and 4th and 1, halted momentum. We then went into our weekly crapp for a quarter and a half, before playing again to pull it out

[Professor Chaos]

Why is SDSU's resume valued more than Indiana State's? They have a head to head win, but their SOS is worse (.406 to .539), they don't have a signature win, and they have a worse loss.

Similarly to the case of Villanova against Richmond, H-2-H might be negated.


I believe you may have answered your own question.

More wins, higher conference finish, and head to head. Pretty hard to argue, IMO. If the two teams played in different leagues and the SOS played out that way, different story.
InSU also has the anchor of a DII win on their resume so they only have 7 wins compared to SDSU's 8. InSU's OOC schedule isn't any better than SDSU's. They played Indiana, Quincy (D2), and Drake whereas SDSU played Kansas, Southeast Louisiana, and UC Davis. That's advantage SDSU if you ask me. Then in conference SDSU missed IlSU whereas InSU missed UNI. For as poor as UNI's record is this year that's still a pretty decent team InSU missed although that is a slight advantage to them for playing a tougher conference schedule. Overall the schedule strength is the same IMO, they'll likely have the same 6-2 conference records, but SDSU has a head-to-head win and an extra D1 win. Advantage Jackrabbits.

[WileECoyote06]

Richmond's SOS is slightly worse than VU and they don't have a worse loss.

It's not an equal comparison, but I was referring to the fact that VU's SOS is better (0.4948 to 0.4183) and they have a better win (ODU) than Richmond. You are correct Richmond doesn't have any bad losses. 0.08 is not considered 'slightly' in terms of SOS; Villanova is #39 and Richmond is #99 among teams that have played 9 or more inter-division games.

But that wasn't my ultimate point, so I'll let that go.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's not an equal comparison, but I was referring to the fact that VU's SOS is better (0.4948 to 0.4183) and they have a better win (ODU) than Richmond. You are correct Richmond doesn't have any bad losses. 0.08 is not considered 'slightly' in terms of SOS; Villanova is #39 and Richmond is #99 among teams that have played 9 or more inter-division games.

But that wasn't my ultimate point, so I'll let that go.

Villanova's SoS is stronger, incidentally, since their OOC games were Temple, Fordham, and Penn, while Richmond's is Virginia, Gardner-Webb, and VMI.

Lehigh's OOC was Princeton (not very far from Penn in terms of Ivy League strength, and may be co-champs with them), Liberty (> Webb and VMI, may be Big South co-champs), CCSU (agreed, not strong), Columbia (ditto) and Monmouth (a middle-of-the-road NC team).

What's the Richmond's OOC schedule? A game against Virginia, which they lost, which gives them "schedule strength".

Why is Villanova not getting pilloried for - gasp! - playing a Patriot League squad and - gasp! - an Ivy League squad OOC? Because they have added FBS Temple to their OOC. "Schedule strength".

Lehigh didn't play an FBS team. So there's no "schedule strength", even though Richmond's OOC features two FCS teams that are worse than any OOC opponent that Lehigh played all season. (Source: Massey http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11590)

[WileECoyote06]

InSU also has the anchor of a DII win on their resume so they only have 7 wins compared to SDSU's 8. InSU's OOC schedule isn't any better than SDSU's. They played Indiana, Quincy (D2), and Drake whereas SDSU played Kansas, Southeast Louisiana, and UC Davis. That's advantage SDSU if you ask me. Then in conference SDSU missed IlSU whereas InSU missed UNI. For as poor as UNI's record is this year that's still a pretty decent team InSU missed although that is a slight advantage to them for playing a tougher conference schedule. Overall the schedule strength is the same IMO, they'll likely have the same 6-2 conference records, but SDSU has a head-to-head win and an extra D1 win. Advantage Jackrabbits.

They have an extra D1 win, but their SOS's are not close (Indiana St #14. . . SDSU #105 currently). SDSU defeated Indiana State but couldn't conquer NDSU. Indiana State has a win over the defending national champion in their house. And it will likely be NDSU's only loss. You can't get better proof of their preparedness for the playoffs.

Since the committee puts a premium on wins and SOS it will really depend on whether they will judge that an easier schedule led to more wins. But then again Indiana St could lose to Youngstown and make this decision easier. *shrug*

[Professor Chaos]

They have an extra D1 win, but their SOS's are not close (Indiana St #14. . . SDSU #105 currently). SDSU defeated Indiana State but couldn't conquer NDSU. Indiana State has a win over the defending national champion in their house. And it will likely be NDSU's only loss. You can't get better proof of their preparedness for the playoffs.

Since the committee puts a premium on wins and SOS it will really depend on whether they will judge that an easier schedule led to more wins. But then again Indiana St could lose to Youngstown and make this decision easier. *shrug*
Where are you getting the SOS numbers from? Sagarin has SDSU with a slightly tougher schedule and if you look at the OOC schedule it makes sense. If you're basing it strictly off of winning % that's silly because Indiana St has a D2 and a Pioneer team pumping up their opponents win % with cupcakes.

[WileECoyote06]

Where are you getting the SOS numbers from? Sagarin has SDSU with a slightly tougher schedule and if you look at the OOC schedule it makes sense. If you're basing it strictly off of winning % that's silly because Indiana St has a D2 and a Pioneer team pumping up their opponents win % with cupcakes.

Directly from the NCAA's website of toughest schedules. Since the NCAA reps have repeatedly claimed they have their own ranking systems, I try to pay attention to the statistics that they officially produce.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/toughest%20schedule/fcs_9games_cumm.pdf

BTW, that cupcake Drake gave Montana State a good game (they had a lead in the third quarter) and can win the Pioneer League outright. Quincy well yeah they suck, but it's not unusual for an FCS team to get another home game in this manner.

[danefan]

Villanova's SoS is stronger, incidentally, since their OOC games were Temple, Fordham, and Penn, while Richmond's is Virginia, Gardner-Webb, and VMI.

Lehigh's OOC was Princeton (not very far from Penn in terms of Ivy League strength, and may be co-champs with them), Liberty (> Webb and VMI, may be Big South co-champs), CCSU (agreed, not strong), Columbia (ditto) and Monmouth (a middle-of-the-road NC team).

What's the Richmond's OOC schedule? A game against Virginia, which they lost, which gives them "schedule strength".

Why is Villanova not getting pilloried for - gasp! - playing a Patriot League squad and - gasp! - an Ivy League squad OOC? Because they have added FBS Temple to their OOC. "Schedule strength".

Lehigh didn't play an FBS team. So there's no "schedule strength", even though Richmond's OOC features two FCS teams that are worse than any OOC opponent that Lehigh played all season. (Source: Massey http://masseyratings.com/rate.php?lg=cf&yr=2012&sub=11590)

LFN - you're living in a bizzaro world or something right now.

Its a simple concenpt.

The MVFC, CAA, Socon, and Big Sky can rely on their conference schdule to give them the strength they need. They do not need to supplement in OOC play.
Few, if any, other leagues can do that. And the Patriot League certainly cannot. They need to supplement in OOC play.

Thems the breaks.

[FargoBison]

Directly from the NCAA's website of toughest schedules. Since the NCAA reps have repeatedly claimed they have their own ranking systems, I try to pay attention to the statistics that they officially produce.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/toughest%20schedule/fcs_9games_cumm.pdf

You do realize that SOS ranking is a complete joke right? Not even sure how the NCAA could put value in something that ranks Montana State and Alabama as being the same.

[FargoBison]

In the case of Villanova, no. And in the case of Delaware, only if we play at there place, which is a joke. So that basic assumption is not true for the local CAA. We do have UNH again next year, which is good. I am not sure why we do not have games with Towson, but that might be related to their prior history with the PL. also we have not played the VA schools in a while. We should be trying that.

Has Lehigh ever played YSU?

[Vitojr130]

You mean the same crash and burn Griz who thumped Liberty and South Dakota? Liberty is the PL's best OCC win (Lehigh needed (14) 4th quarter points to beat almighty Liberty by 2) and Liberty woudln't even win 2 games in the BSC. And South Dakota got boat raced out of WaGriz stadium, yet USD seemed to handle the PL champ fine.

The same weak Big Sky Conference who has 4 wins over FBS schools? An OCC win over Stephen F. Austin? the 12th place BSC team losing at South Dakota State 8-12? A middle of the pack (in terms of BSC) griz team that went down to the wire agains SoCon champ App St? You mean that weak league?

I wouldn't call a 35-24 win against the weakest person in our conference a thumping.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Few, if any, other leagues can do that. And the Patriot League certainly cannot. They need to supplement in OOC play.

When scholarships take full hold, they'll be able to schedule the FBS teams in order to "supplement" the schedule. But in the past FBS teams have shied away because they have not been counters for bowl eligibility.

[WileECoyote06]

You do realize that SOS ranking is a complete joke right?

Just because you say so? Do you honestly think the committee ignores that ranking? If so, then why is it even on the NCAA site?

Look guys SDSU can be in the playoffs, it's really okay! sheesh. . .

[WileECoyote06]

You do realize that SOS ranking is a complete joke right? Not even sure how the NCAA could put value in something that ranks Montana State and Alabama as being the same.

Don't we often quote Sagarin? xeyebrowx

[FargoBison]

Don't we often quote Sagarin? xeyebrowx

For SOS Massey is the best, Sagarin is flawed in that it treats all non-DI teams the same but still it is better than the NCAA's ranking.

[FargoBison]

Wait I just realize that SOS ranking(NCAA) only counts FCS games, yeah it is garbage.

[WileECoyote06]

Wait I just realize that SOS ranking only counts FCS games, yeah it is garbage.

Wait.. . okay you just said it was flawed because it equates FCS teams and FBS teams. . now you claim it's flawed because it only counts FCS games?

making my head spin bro. . . isn't performance against FCS schools a criteria by which teams are evaluated for the playoffs? FBS wins help, but FBS losses don't really hurt. . .

This makes it even more likely that they use this strength index when evaluating teams; and then FBS wins are considered.

[FargoBison]

Wait.. . okay you just said it was flawed because it equates FCS teams and FBS teams. . now you claim it's flawed because it only counts FCS games?

making my head spin bro. . . isn't performance against FCS schools a criteria by which teams are evaluated for the playoffs? FBS wins help, but FBS losses don't really hurt. . .

This makes it even more likely that they use this strength index when evaluating teams; and then FBS wins are considered.

I didn't realize it was just FCS right away, all it talked about was wins and losses. I missed the little heading in the corner that said inter-division games only. FBS games shouldn't be treated like they didn't happen because they did and those games have a significant affect on how teams schedule. In this ranking EWU is absolutely crushed because two of their games don't even count, one of them they won and the other they barely lost. Same goes for UNI...I could go on and on.

I highly doubt the NCAA puts a lot of stock in that ranking. I bet they heavily use something that can't even be statistically accounted for...the "eye test"

[kingkat99]

Yeah I saw that. I think he got hit on the head one too many times getting his guns up at Tech.

Don't get me wrong, Sam's got a hell of a defense, but more aggressive than other SEC defenses....uhhhhhhh

More "agressive" doesnt always equate to "Better"

[danefan]

When scholarships take full hold, they'll be able to schedule the FBS teams in order to "supplement" the schedule. But in the past FBS teams have shied away because they have not been counters for bowl eligibility.

You don't need FBS teams. You need better FCS teams. Lehigh could have easily scheduled a CAA, Socon, MVFC or Big Sky team.

No they won't all do home-and-home, but thems the breaks. You want the strength of schedule, you have to take what is available. If not, nothing to complain about.

[LeeshaJo]

You don't need FBS teams. You need better FCS teams. Lehigh could have easily scheduled a CAA, Socon, MVFC or Big Sky team.

No they won't all do home-and-home, but thems the breaks. You want the strength of schedule, you have to take what is available. If not, nothing to complain about.

I think there are many fcs teams that would do 1 and 1 ones.

[PAllen]

You don't need FBS teams. You need better FCS teams. Lehigh could have easily scheduled a CAA, Socon, MVFC or Big Sky team.

No they won't all do home-and-home, but thems the breaks. You want the strength of schedule, you have to take what is available. If not, nothing to complain about.

So we should call our AD right now and demand that he schedule 7-8 away games a year, all of them breaking even or losing money on travel costs. We should do this because a few narrow minded folks on here think that the only good football in this subdivision is played in 3 or 4 conferences?

If that's not a recipe for destroying the program, I don't know what is.

Thanks, but we'll pass.

[WileECoyote06]

I didn't realize it was just FCS right away, all it talked about was wins and losses. I missed the little heading in the corner that said inter-division games only. FBS games shouldn't be treated like they didn't happen because they did and those games have a significant affect on how teams schedule. In this ranking EWU is absolutely crushed because two of their games don't even count, one of them they won and the other they barely lost. Same goes for UNI...I could go on and on.

I highly doubt the NCAA puts a lot of stock in that ranking. I bet they heavily use something that can't even be statistically accounted for...the "eye test"

But EWU only has one loss against FCS competition for a current winning average of 0.889. These things balance out and yes the eye test and FBS win will account for something. EWU is in no danger of missing the playoffs.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You don't need FBS teams. You need better FCS teams. Lehigh could have easily scheduled a CAA, Socon, MVFC or Big Sky team.

No they won't all do home-and-home, but thems the breaks. You want the strength of schedule, you have to take what is available. If not, nothing to complain about.

I think at some point the league teams need to stand by their own merits. The PL is not this mickey mouse conference that some make it out to be. I don't believe Lehigh has ever been unprepared for the playoffs due to their "level" of regular season competition. The core group of this team has faced UNI, Delaware, Villanova, NDSU, Towson and UNH as it is.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

So we should call our AD right now and demand that he schedule 7-8 away games a year, all of them breaking even or losing money on travel costs. We should do this because a few narrow minded folks on here think that the only good football in this subdivision is played in 3 or 4 conferences?

If that's not a recipe for destroying the program, I don't know what is.

Thanks, but we'll pass.

Nope but stop bitching about respectability. The PL is simply an autobid conference. No more than the AQ belongs in the playoffs.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

So we should call our AD right now and demand that he schedule 7-8 away games a year, all of them breaking even or losing money on travel costs. We should do this because a few narrow minded folks on here think that the only good football in this subdivision is played in 3 or 4 conferences?

If that's not a recipe for destroying the program, I don't know what is.

Thanks, but we'll pass.

Seriously...

There is zero problems with Lehigh's scheduling in general. This year just didn't turn out as well as some would like. I still don't believe it's that bad.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Nope but stop bitching about respectability. The PL is simply an autobid conference. No more than the AQ belongs in the playoffs.

Thankfully your opinion means nothing. The PL has had at larges in the past.

[FargoBison]

So we should call our AD right now and demand that he schedule 7-8 away games a year, all of them breaking even or losing money on travel costs. We should do this because a few narrow minded folks on here think that the only good football in this subdivision is played in 3 or 4 conferences?

If that's not a recipe for destroying the program, I don't know what is.

Thanks, but we'll pass.

You have 5 OOC games to schedule, one of them should be vs the CAA, SoCon, MVFC, etc.

[wow]

I think there are many fcs teams west of the Mississippi that would do 1 and 1 ones.

I believe you forgot the bold... Of course, you can't expect teams from the east coast to travel all the way out to tumbleweed country.

[FargoBison]

Nope but stop bitching about respectability. The PL is simply an autobid conference. No more than the AQ belongs in the playoffs.

I don't understand why people are talking in absolutes, this is a one season type of scenario. The PL has had teams in the past put together an at-large type of resume and has gotten at-large bids.

[LeeshaJo]

I still say the majority of the reason Lehigh is getting all the hate is because there are so many teams on the bubble and odds are they are going to get an at large that many will think should have gone to their team. Win on the field, take care of your own destiny. Don't give the committee a reason to overlook you at selection time. There are a lot of good teams this year.

Hopefully the Jacks do what they need to do Saturday and don't end up on the outside looking in.

I will tell you in my "bracket" take it for what it is worth, I have Lehigh playing at SDSU for a play in game to my second seed Old Dom.

[WileECoyote06]

I still say the majority of the reason Lehigh is getting all the hate is because there are so many teams on the bubble and odds are they are going to get an at large that many will think should have gone to their team. Win on the field, take care of your own destiny. Don't give the committee a reason to overlook you at selection time. There are a lot of good teams this year.

Hopefully the Jacks do what they need to do Saturday and don't end up on the outside looking in.

I will tell you in my "bracket" take it for what it is worth, I have Lehigh playing at SDSU for a play in game to my second seed Old Dom.

props! And ultimately that's what it's all about. . winning as many games as you can.

[FargoBison]

But EWU only has one loss against FCS competition for a current winning average of 0.889. These things balance out and yes the eye test and FBS win will account for something. EWU is in no danger of missing the playoffs.

I'm sure that SOS ranking has a very limited effect because it is pulling out a massive amount of games and the committee realizes that(they are smart people after all), EWU played one of the toughest schedules in the nation and in that ranking they are #96. It is complete and utter BS. But please continue to ignore every point I make.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You don't need FBS teams. You need better FCS teams. Lehigh could have easily scheduled a CAA, Socon, MVFC or Big Sky team.

In order to ensure "schedule strength," you need to either:

1) schedule an FBS squad, where you gain "schedule strength", win or lose, or

2) you try to divine who's going to be in the Top 25 a couple years out, so you can schedule a North Dakota State, Montana, JMU, William & Mary, Delaware, Villanova, UNH or another regional powerhouse - and, of course, win that game - in order to get something less than the same benefit. Sometimes you roll "Top 25 team", you win, or play them tough, and you get "schedule strength", or you roll craps, and get a 2-8 William & Mary team or a 5-5 Liberty team. It, of course, helps to play 3-4 of them, in order to increase your odds of hitting the lottery. But that also means you give up home games, and you play a much more brutal schedule overall - increasing your chances of not getting in thanks to Division I wins.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

You have 5 OOC games to schedule, one of them should be vs the CAA, SoCon, MVFC, etc.

Lehigh OOC opponents since the PL became playoff eligible.

1997 - Harvard, Penn, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Delaware
1998 - St. Mary's, Princeton, Harvard, Columbia, Wofford
1999 - Monmouth, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, Delaware; Lehigh earned an At-Large
2000 - Wofford, Penn, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
2001 - Princeton, CCSU, Cornell, Penn (canceled due to 9/11)
2002 - Buffalo (FBS), Princeton, Penn, Harvard, Yale
2003 - Princeton, Penn, UCONN (FBS), St. Mary's
2004 - Stony Brook, Villanova, Liberty, Albany, Yale; Lehigh earned an At-Large
2005 - Monmouth, Delaware, VMI, Harvard, Yale
2006 - Albany, Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2007 - Villanova, Princeton VMI, Harvard, Yale
2008 - Drake, Villanova, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
2009 - CCSU, Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - Drake, Villanova, Princeton, UNH, Harvard
2011 - Monmouth, UNH, Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, CCSU, Princeton, Liberty, Columbia

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

So we should call our AD right now and demand that he schedule 7-8 away games a year, all of them breaking even or losing money on travel costs. We should do this because a few narrow minded folks on here think that the only good football in this subdivision is played in 3 or 4 conferences?

If that's not a recipe for destroying the program, I don't know what is.

Thanks, but we'll pass.

What nonsense!! There are plenty of teams that will schedule home and homes with you and most of them are bus games too. For gawds sake you don't have to take a single plane for a league game! My school with far less money than Lehigh has multiple plane games a year in conference and manages to survive. How about two Ivies, one NEC and two from Maine, UNH, URI, Albany, Stony Brook, Towson, JMU, W&M, Richmond, Liberty, Coastal Carolina, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Citadel, Samford, Youngstown State, etc. I seriously doubt that breaks the bank and I'd be amazed if you couldn't get home and home with them. Wofford had a D-II this year, I betcha they wish they had Lehigh on their schedule this year!

[stevdock]

Lehigh OOC opponents since the PL became playoff eligible.

1997 - Harvard, Penn, Hofstra, Dartmouth, Delaware
1998 - St. Mary's, Harvard, Columbia, Wofford
1999 - Monmouth, Princeton, Columbia, Dartmouth, Delaware; Lehigh earned an At-Large
2000 - Wofford, Penn, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
2001 - Princeton, CCSU, Cornell, Penn (canceled due to 9/11)
2002 - Buffalo (FBS), Princeton, Penn, Harvard, Yale
2003 - Princeton, Penn, UCONN (FBS), St. Mary's
2004 - Stony Brook, Villanova, Liberty, Albany, Yale; Lehigh earned an At-Large
2005 - Monmouth, Delaware, VMI, Harvard, Yale
2006 - Albany, Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2007 - Villanova, Princeton VMI, Harvard, Yale
2008 - Drake, Villanova, Princeton, Cornell, Harvard
2009 - CCSU, Villanova, Princeton, Harvard, Yale
2010 - Drake, Villanova, Princeton, UNH, Harvard
2011 - Monmouth, UNH, Princeton, Liberty, Yale
2012 - Monmouth, CCSU, Princeton, Liberty, Columbia

What's up with playing so many Ivy league schools, other than proximity??

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

What's up with playing so many Ivy league schools, other than proximity??

Scheduling partners. The Patriot League is modeled after the Ivy League. I enjoy the games and believe the PL teams should keep at-least two on their schedule. Princeton has emerged as one of Lehigh's biggest OOC rivals. The games are always competitive.

[WileECoyote06]

I'm sure that SOS ranking has a very limited effect because it is pulling out a massive amount of games and the committee realizes that(they are smart people after all), EWU played one of the toughest schedules in the nation and in that ranking they are #96. It is complete and utter BS. But please continue to ignore every point I make.

Who ignored your points? I countered some and agreed with others. Both arguments are based on opinions; I hold the opinion that they do use the 'toughest schedule' ranking; you don't think they do. I agreed with your comment about the 'eye test'. You think EWU's schedule ranking is flawed, and I don't think it is. But hey. . .like I said. . .

SDSU can advance to the playoffs, Indiana State can stay home. *shrug*

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

In order to ensure "schedule strength," you need to either:

1) schedule an FBS squad, where you gain "schedule strength", win or lose, or

2) you try to divine who's going to be in the Top 25 a couple years out, so you can schedule a North Dakota State, Montana, JMU, William & Mary, Delaware, Villanova, UNH or another regional powerhouse - and, of course, win that game - in order to get something less than the same benefit. Sometimes you roll "Top 25 team", you win, or play them tough, and you get "schedule strength", or you roll craps, and get a 2-8 William & Mary team or a 5-5 Liberty team. It, of course, helps to play 3-4 of them, in order to increase your odds of hitting the lottery. But that also means you give up home games, and you play a much more brutal schedule overall - increasing your chances of not getting in thanks to Division I wins.

3. Play enough games with teams from full scholarship, AQ leagues so that the world can determine that your teams are as strong as you try to tell everyone they are (see my other post). Get everyone in your league to do the same. It lessens your "roll craps" effect. You don't understand FCS if you think you have to give up home games to do this. You base everything on Villanova and Delaware rather than deal with reality. Prove to us the rest of the CAA wouldn't schedule home and home with you. Prove to us the private schools from the SoCon wouldn't schedule home and homes.

What the hell are you going to do if the Ivy doesn't schedule 2-3 games per year with the Patriot schools once you go to 60 scholarships??????

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. Play enough games with teams from full scholarship, AQ leagues so that the world can determine that your teams are as strong as you try to tell everyone they are (see my other post). Get everyone in your league to do the same. It lessens your "roll craps" effect. You don't understand FCS if you think you have to give up home games to do this. You base everything on Villanova and Delaware rather than deal with reality. Prove to us the rest of the CAA wouldn't schedule home and home with you. Prove to us the private schools from the SoCon wouldn't schedule home and homes.

What the hell are you going to do if the Ivy doesn't schedule 2-3 games per year with the Patriot schools once you go to 60 scholarships??????

We'll convince BU to restart football. :D Seriously, it will be easier to get an occasional game against Army, Rutgers, Syracuse, and our "schedule strength" issues will go away as the PL starts to do what other leagues have been doing for years - masking their true "schedule strength" with one FBS game.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

3. Play enough games with teams from full scholarship, AQ leagues so that the world can determine that your teams are as strong as you try to tell everyone they are (see my other post). Get everyone in your league to do the same. It lessens your "roll craps" effect. You don't understand FCS if you think you have to give up home games to do this. You base everything on Villanova and Delaware rather than deal with reality. Prove to us the rest of the CAA wouldn't schedule home and home with you. Prove to us the private schools from the SoCon wouldn't schedule home and homes.

What the hell are you going to do if the Ivy doesn't schedule 2-3 games per year with the Patriot schools once you go to 60 scholarships??????

Lehigh is playing UNH at Goodman next year from what I gather. This is literally a once in 15 year issue. Lehigh still did the smart thing by scheduling all D1 games if someone did back out.

[WileECoyote06]

3. Play enough games with teams from full scholarship, AQ leagues so that the world can determine that your teams are as strong as you try to tell everyone they are (see my other post). Get everyone in your league to do the same. It lessens your "roll craps" effect. You don't understand FCS if you think you have to give up home games to do this. You base everything on Villanova and Delaware rather than deal with reality. Prove to us the rest of the CAA wouldn't schedule home and home with you. Prove to us the private schools from the SoCon wouldn't schedule home and homes.

What the hell are you going to do if the Ivy doesn't schedule 2-3 games per year with the Patriot schools once you go to 60 scholarships??????

Not to disagree with you, but this comment is kinda funny.

Who are they trying to impress? The committee or a bunch of anonymous fans?

[FargoBison]

3. Play enough games with teams from full scholarship, AQ leagues so that the world can determine that your teams are as strong as you try to tell everyone they are (see my other post). Get everyone in your league to do the same. It lessens your "roll craps" effect. You don't understand FCS if you think you have to give up home games to do this. You base everything on Villanova and Delaware rather than deal with reality. Prove to us the rest of the CAA wouldn't schedule home and home with you. Prove to us the private schools from the SoCon wouldn't schedule home and homes.

What the hell are you going to do if the Ivy doesn't schedule 2-3 games per year with the Patriot schools once you go to 60 scholarships??????

I do agree they need to get their entire league on board...this is the PL's OOC this year...

MVFC: 1 game
Big East: 1
Big South: 1
NEC: 7
IVY: 18
Pioneer: 2
CAA: 3
Non-DI: 1

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Not to disagree with you, but this comment is kinda funny.

Who are they trying to impress? The committee or a bunch of anonymous fans?

Seriously, at this point Lehigh doesn't have to prove anything to anyone. It's been one of the more consistently strong programs in 1AA/FCS since its formation in the late 70's.

[FargoBison]

Who ignored your points? I countered some and agreed with others. Both arguments are based on opinions; I hold the opinion that they do use the 'toughest schedule' ranking; you don't think they do. I agreed with your comment about the 'eye test'. You think EWU's schedule ranking is flawed, and I don't think it is. But hey. . .like I said. . .

SDSU can advance to the playoffs, Indiana State can stay home. *shrug*

I might have been a bit harsh with that post, lets just say I have issues with a number teams SOS's according the NCAA but that is what happens when you pull a massive amount of games out of the equation. We'll just have to agree to disagree with this I guess.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I do agree they need to get their entire league on board...this is PL's OOC this year...

MVFC: 1 game
Big East: 1
Big South: 1
NEC: 7
IVY: 18
Pioneer: 2
CAA: 3
Non-DI: 1

Not sure where you got that from but the Big South figure is definitely wrong. Colgate played SBU and Lehigh played Liberty.

[Professor Chaos]

Directly from the NCAA's website of toughest schedules. Since the NCAA reps have repeatedly claimed they have their own ranking systems, I try to pay attention to the statistics that they officially produce.

http://web1.ncaa.org/mfb/2012/Internet/toughest%20schedule/fcs_9games_cumm.pdf

BTW, that cupcake Drake gave Montana State a good game (they had a lead in the third quarter) and can win the Pioneer League outright. Quincy well yeah they suck, but it's not unusual for an FCS team to get another home game in this manner.
That SOS ranking is complete garbage. You honestly think that this proves that Drake has played a tougher schedule than Old Dominion, Montana St, and NDSU? I guarantee you not a single person on the NCAA selection committee that really decides this thing does.


Just because you say so? Do you honestly think the committee ignores that ranking? If so, then why is it even on the NCAA site?
Unequivocably yes.

[WileECoyote06]

I might have been a bit harsh with that post, lets just say I have issues with a number teams SOS's according the NCAA but that is what happens when you pull a massive amount of games out of the equation. We'll just have to agree to disagree with this I guess.

Cool with me.

[FargoBison]

Not sure where you got that from but the Big South figure is definitely wrong. Colgate played SBU and Lehigh played Liberty.

Sorry this is the correct breakdown...

NEC: 8
MVFC 1
Ivy 16
Big South: 2
Pioneer: 2
CAA: 4
Non-D1: 1
Big East: 1

[WileECoyote06]

That SOS ranking is complete garbage. You honestly think that this proves that Drake has played a tougher schedule than Old Dominion, Montana St, and NDSU? I guarantee you not a single person on the NCAA selection committee that really decides this thing does.


Unequivocably yes.

Unless you're on the committee monitoring us for a sadistic laugh, you could be wrong. I could be wrong. I guess that's what makes playoff projections fun.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lehigh's scheduling has changed a bit since the league re-entered the playoffs. The biggest difference is the emergence of the NEC and the disappearance of Penn over the last 10 or so years imo.

1986 - Navy (FBS), Northeastern, W&M, Princeton Delaware, West Chester (D2)
1987 - Navy (FBS), W&M, Princeton, Delaware, Columbia, Brown
1988 - W&M, Dartmouth, Cornell, Towson, Columbia, Northeastern
1989 - Umass, Towson, Yale, Harvard, Northeastern, W&M
1990 - Towson, Dartmouth, Columbia, Penn, Northeastern, W&M
1991 - Uconn, Columbia, Dartmouth, Northeastern, Penn, W&M
1992 - UNH, Cornell, Princeton, Northeastern, Brown, W&M
1993 - Delaware, Hofstra, Brown, Cornell, Princeton, Idaho
1994 - Buffalo, Columbia, Cornell, Yale, UNH, Delaware
1995 - Army (FBS), Yale, UNH, Columbia, Cornell, Umass
1996 - Delaware, Buffalo, Dartmouth, Princeton, UNH, Penn

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Lehigh is playing UNH at Goodman next year from what I gather. This is literally a once in 15 year issue. Lehigh still did the smart thing by scheduling all D1 games if someone did back out.

I've read in a NH newspaper that indeed UNH will be at Goodman in 2013 and Lehigh will be at Cowell in 2014. No argument with all D-I games. I still maintain Lehigh (and all PL schools) would be better off having two Ivies, ONE NEC and two from the rest of the full scholarship, AQ leagues. Less impact from LFN's "roll craps" that way. xpeacex

[danefan]

Seriously...

There is zero problems with Lehigh's scheduling in general. This year just didn't turn out as well as some would like. I still don't believe it's that bad.

I don't think its bad either. It just might not be good enough this year.

I don't blame Lehigh for scheduling they way they do. Lots of historic rivals and they don't need paydays. But that doesn't mean Lehigh should get a pass when it comes down to evaluating strength of schedule.

[Southern Bison]

Sorry this is the correct breakdown...

NEC: 8
MVFC 1
Ivy 16
Big South: 2
Pioneer: 2
CAA: 4
Non-D1: 1
Big East: 1

I see 1 game w/FBS team and 5 games with FCS Power Conferences (MVFC & CAA). The rest of the conferences are weak conferences. If the selection committee looks at the math, those 10 wins against mostly weak teams (& a few too close for comfort) will get outranked by a ISU, App St., Cal Poly, and a few other 9-2 or 8-3 teams that have had a tougher schedule. I know you want a shot at the playoffs again this year but Lehigh's portfolio just isn't as strong as others. However, if you do make the playoffs may I offer one little piece of advice? Place the team on a social media blackout so that the entire team can participate this year.

[Neighbor2]

Unless I'm missing something, and assuming Lehigh wins Saturday to go 10-1, should the selection committee not pick Lehigh, it will send a new message to all Patriot League schools. That is. . . To be included in the playoffs, a Patriot League school must either win their league championship, OR go undefeated.

Going undefeated, of course, IS to win the PL Championship.

This in a year when the playoff field is being expanded, when history has shown Lehigh has not just competed in the national tournament, but has advanced there, despite being ranked lower than their opponents. Not to mention tournament performance by other Patriot League teams in prior years.

To me, if Lehigh beats Lafayette, Lehigh makes the field.

[89rabbit]

So what has Lehigh done THIS year to deserve a playoff spot??? Beat Holy Cross (1-9) by 1, Princeton (5-4) by 3, Liberty (5-5) by 2, Fordham (6-4) by 3, Georgetown (5-5) by 3, Lehigh's best win this year is against Liberty and that is only marginally good. Lehigh has too many close games against weak opponents.

Still waiting for someone to tackle this one.

[Neighbor2]

Well, rabbit -

How about only losing in the championship game of your league? An FCS league that has had more playoff success than some of the other eligible FCS leagues? During a year when the tournament has added slots.

Look, I'm OK if Lehigh doesn't get in (assuming they beat Lafayette). 10-1, including beating the most fierce rival is one of the best seasons in school history. A history longer than 95% of FCS teams here. Besides, this is a temporary situation. Patriot League scholarships are about to begin. Lehigh WILL get at least 1 FBS opponent on a future schedule and non-Patriot foes will face even stronger Lehigh teams in a few years. Things are looking up!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Well, rabbit -

How about only losing in the championship game of your league? An FCS league that has had more playoff success than some of the other eligible FCS leagues? During a year when the tournament has added slots.

Look, I'm OK if Lehigh doesn't get in (assuming they beat Lafayette). 10-1, including beating the most fierce rival is one of the best seasons in school history. A history longer than 95% of FCS teams here. Besides, this is a temporary situation. Patriot League scholarships are about to begin. Lehigh WILL get at least 1 FBS opponent on a future schedule and non-Patriot foes will face even stronger Lehigh teams in a few years. Things are looking up!

I don't see FBS games being a yearly occurance. My guess is every 2 or 3 years they'll play Army, Navy, Rutgers, Duke, Temple, UCONN, BC etc type teams. You won't see Lehigh heading to Ohio State, Penn State, Virginia Tech or the like anytime soon. The furthest they're going to reach is maybe Maryland, Virginia, Northwestern or Syracuse. Army and Navy are a certainty given their affiliation to the PL.

I honestly don't see the schedule changing much going forward. Stick to 1 consistent winner (UD, UNH, Richmond, Villanova, JMU, Wofford etc) another "good" game (Liberty, Albany, Coastal Carolina, Maine, The Citadel etc.), 2 Ivies (Princeton and try for a rotation of Penn, Harvard, Brown and Yale), 1 NEC game.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Still waiting for someone to tackle this one.

10 D1 Wins
5-0 Road Record assuming they beat Lafayette
Alone in 2nd place in the league
The Patriot League is a decent conference. It's not as weak as some WANT to believe.
Their only loss will have been against an 8-3 league champ.

People keep referring to the "close" games. That is true, but not ALL were close . Their only nail biter game against a truly "inferior" team came against Holy Cross on the road. Otherwise, Lehigh beat the three other "bad" teams by an average of 22 points. Either way, I don't see this factoring in.