Explaining the SoCon Autobid (not decided yet)

[T-Dog]

So after looking over games notes, official procedure and such, here is what I've deciphered.

We all know ASU, Wofford and GSU each won a share of the SoCon with 6-2 records.

The big point of contention is whether the 4th place teams would be ranked or not. It appears that teams with similar final records will be grouped together (ASU's game notes confirmed this).

Samford is 5-3 and done. UTC and El Cit are 4-3 and have games left against Elon and Furman, respectively.

-If UTC and El Cit wins, then Samford, UTC and El Cit would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-1, GSU went 2-1 and Wofford went 2-1. ASU, GSU and Wofford all would have defeated the remaining teams, Elon, Furman and Western. Then it would come down to who gave up the least points in SoCon play. GSU gave up 163, Wofford gave up 164 and ASU gave up 238. GSU gets the autobid.

-If UTC wins and El Cit loses, then Samford and UTC would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-0, GSU went 2-0 and Wofford went 1-1 against those two. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

-If UTC and El Cit loses, then Samford would be alone in fourth. ASU won, GSU won and Wofford loss. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

So here's what it boils down to.

If Furman beats El Citadel, ASU gets the autobid. If El Citadel beats Furman, GSU gets the autobid.

And before anyone else says, yes the SoCon was vague on this, but this is apparently how it goes.

[AppStsGr8]

T-Dog, need to edit the three way tie to be among Wofford, App, and GaSo (not Chatty). Thanks.

[Eaglesrus]

Touchdown, The Citadel!

[walliver]

It would be bad to lose the autobid by a single point.

[Eaglesrus]

It would be bad to lose the autobid by a single point.

That would be tough, but as far as I'm concerned we'll take it any way we can get it. Hopefully all three of us make the playoffs anyway, but who knows?

[Edge316007]

This makes absolutely no sense to me and I want to see confirmation. Why would you not break the tie for 4th first? I want to read what you're reading.

[Saint3333]

All three are in no doubt about it.

[Edge316007]

All three are in no doubt about it.

Agreed, but if a seed came out of the SoCon, I would not support it going to a non-autobid over an autobid.

Also, I would like to see the SoCon amend the rulebook and eliminating shared titles. I don't like to recognize our 2007 title when it was a 2 way tie but Wofford beat us head to head.

[Eagle22]

Agreed, but if a seed came out of the SoCon, I would not support it going to a non-autobid over an autobid.



Sort of what happened in 1999.

Of course the seeding was different back then, with 8 teams seeded.

If I'm not mistaken, ASU got the autobid. GSU was seeded #2, ASU #4 and Furman #7.

[cbarrier90]

Also, I would like to see the SoCon amend the rulebook and eliminating shared titles. I don't like to recognize our 2007 title when it was a 2 way tie but Wofford beat us head to head.

Even if you do that, it doesn't make figuring out the autobid any easier.

ASU is 1-1 against GSU and Wofford
Wofford is 1-1 against ASU and GSU
GSU is 1-1 against Wofford and ASU

Thus, the only way to figure it out is to determine the teams' records against the 4th place team, which will be decided this upcoming week.

Once you figure that out, one of the three teams above will be eliminated from contention, at which point you can revert back to the much easier head-to-head matchup.

[Edge316007]

That was way before my time there, so I can't comment on that. But from the looks of what you posted, yeah that does seem to be similar to what I'm talking about.

Also, did a bit of quick research on my own. Didn't see a thing about grouping the teams at #4 in the game notes, and the SoCon rulebook says this:


Championship Determination Tie-breaking Procedures: The Southern Conference champion shall be the team that finishes with the best won-loss percentage in Conference games during the regular season. In the case that two or more schools finish with identical won-loss records, they shall be declared co-champions.

NCAA Automatic Bid Tie-breaking Procedures: The Conference champion shall be awarded an automatic bid to the NCAA FCS Playoffs, provided it is eligible to compete in the post-season under NCAA guidelines. In the event that co-champions are declared, the automatic bid will be awarded as follows:
A. In the case of a two-way tie, the automatic bid will be awarded to the winner of the game between the tied teams during the regular season;
B. In the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss records of the tied teams against each other is first considered (i.e., head to head concept). If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered. If the tie is still not broken, the teams’ won-loss record against the next highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken. If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered. If this does not resolve the tie, then the automatic bid will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Commissioner;
C. In the event of multiple ties after a three-way tie, the same procedure as used to break a three-way tie will be applied until the tie is broken.

I still think we've won the autobid, since Samford clinched at least 5th place over The Citadel.

[Edge316007]

Even if you do that, it doesn't make figuring out the autobid any easier.

ASU is 1-1 against GSU and Wofford
Wofford is 1-1 against ASU and GSU
GSU is 1-1 against Wofford and ASU

Thus, the only way to figure it out is to determine the teams' records against the 4th place team, which will be decided this upcoming week.

Once you figure that out, one of the three teams above will be eliminated from contention, at which point you can revert back to the much easier head-to-head matchup.

What I'm saying is, I don't like that 1/3 of the SoCon can celebrate as champions this year. Break the tie, and have only that team recognized as champions, be it GSU, Wofford or App.

[T-Dog]

This makes absolutely no sense to me and I want to see confirmation. Why would you not break the tie for 4th first? I want to read what you're reading.

It was in the ASU Game Notes this week.

[Edge316007]

It was in the ASU Game Notes this week.

Didn't see anything on GoASU in the pre or post game notes. Regardless, I don't know where they're getting that from since there's nothing in the rulebook about grouping records vs. those teams. Common sense tells me you break the tie for 4th meaning Chattanooga is 4th, Samford 5th and the Citadel 6th if everyone wins their remaining SoCon games.

[Pitz]

All three are in no doubt about it.

What makes you think a Wofford team with only 7 D-I wins will get in over the X number of power conference teams that are going to have 8+ D-I wins?

[eaglewraith]

This is why I wish the language on the Socon site was a bit more clear. You see how there are multiple interpretations of what is said now.

[seantaylor]

Umm, Davey Football says that GSU can't win the autobid. Now, why would anyone ever question the football knowledge of a guy that looks like a broke version of Steve Perry?

[ElCid]

So after looking over games notes, official procedure and such, here is what I've deciphered.

We all know ASU, Wofford and GSU each won a share of the SoCon with 6-2 records.

The big point of contention is whether the 4th place teams would be ranked or not. It appears that teams with similar final records will be grouped together (ASU's game notes confirmed this).

Samford is 5-3 and done. UTC and El Cit are 4-3 and have games left against Elon and Furman, respectively.

-If UTC and El Cit wins, then Samford, UTC and El Cit would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-1, GSU went 2-1 and Wofford went 2-1. ASU, GSU and Wofford all would have defeated the remaining teams, Elon, Furman and Western. Then it would come down to who gave up the least points in SoCon play. GSU gave up 163, Wofford gave up 164 and ASU gave up 238. GSU gets the autobid.

-If UTC wins and El Cit loses, then Samford and UTC would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-0, GSU went 2-0 and Wofford went 1-1 against those two. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

-If UTC and El Cit loses, then Samford would be alone in fourth. ASU won, GSU won and Wofford loss. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

So here's what it boils down to.

If Furman beats El Citadel, ASU gets the autobid. If El Citadel beats Furman, GSU gets the autobid.
And before anyone else says, yes the SoCon was vague on this, but this is apparently how it goes.

I think this is in error. Why would you simply group them together? Not sure this is the case, but why wouldn't you use the same methodology to determine who 4th place is as you would use to determine who first place is?

The reason I say this is because of the language used. It says If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered.

Seeded never means just lumped together. It always uses some deliberate methodology and the only one available is the same one used for first place.

In that case, if Chatt wins this weekend it has sole possession of 4th with a 2-0 record against Samford and Cid (if it wins also). But all three beat Chatt so you move on to 5th who is solely Samford since they beat Cid head to head. Now you have movement. Wofford lost to Samford so they are out. There is no longer a three way tie so you revert to the two way tie and go head to head, App St wins.

If Chatt loses, Samford has sole place for 4th and the same applies. I believe it is already a done deal, the Cid game next week will have no impact, except maybe on Furman's pride, I hope.:D

[james_lawfirm]

So after looking over games notes, official procedure and such, here is what I've deciphered.

We all know ASU, Wofford and GSU each won a share of the SoCon with 6-2 records.

The big point of contention is whether the 4th place teams would be ranked or not. It appears that teams with similar final records will be grouped together (ASU's game notes confirmed this).

Samford is 5-3 and done. UTC and El Cit are 4-3 and have games left against Elon and Furman, respectively.

-If UTC and El Cit wins, then Samford, UTC and El Cit would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-1, GSU went 2-1 and Wofford went 2-1. ASU, GSU and Wofford all would have defeated the remaining teams, Elon, Furman and Western. Then it would come down to who gave up the least points in SoCon play. GSU gave up 163, Wofford gave up 164 and ASU gave up 238. GSU gets the autobid.

-If UTC wins and El Cit loses, then Samford and UTC would be tied for fourth. ASU went 2-0, GSU went 2-0 and Wofford went 1-1 against those two. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

-If UTC and El Cit loses, then Samford would be alone in fourth. ASU won, GSU won and Wofford loss. Wofford would be eliminated and then it would revert back to head-to-head between ASU and GSU. ASU gets the autobid.

So here's what it boils down to.

If Furman beats El Citadel, ASU gets the autobid. If El Citadel beats Furman, GSU gets the autobid.

And before anyone else says, yes the SoCon was vague on this, but this is apparently how it goes.


Well, for what it's worth (nothing), I agree with almost everything above. however, per the rules, you should not "revert back to the head to head" between ASU & GSU. Rather, you should keep going down through the other teams, comparing GSU & ASU's record. ASU lost to El Cit & Wofford. GSU lost to ASU & El Cit. Wofford lost to GSU & Samford.

Wofford's loss to Samford appears to knock them out. However, ASU's & GSU's record against the others is the same. So, it may very well come down to "fewest points allowed"; and GSU gets it.

What a cluster. It appears that the NCAA's attempt to make it extremely unlikely we'll have a coin toss has resulted in a rule that is unclear and vague. Wonderful.

[Edge316007]

Why would you keep proceeding with the 3 team tiebreaker when there aren't 3 teams to break a tie between? Of course you revert back.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What he means is that:

* You have three teams in the tiebreaker
* You break ties for 4th place
* Chatty next, pass
* Samford next, Wofford lost to Samford, they fall out of the tie
* App and GSU beat everyone else
* Next tiebreaker is fewer defensive points allowed against teams in tie
* App gave up 28 points, GSU 31 (since they're the only teams left)

That's why App won the autobid already. Actually, their tiebreaker, IMO is the best in FCS.

[T-Dog]

What he means is that:

* You have three teams in the tiebreaker
* You break ties for 4th place
* Chatty next, pass
* Samford next, Wofford lost to Samford, they fall out of the tie
* App and GSU beat everyone else
* Next tiebreaker is fewer defensive points allowed against teams in tie
* App gave up 28 points, GSU 31 (since they're the only teams left)

That's why App won the autobid already. Actually, their tiebreaker, IMO is the best in FCS.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-1olELctbw

http://www.soconsports.com/fls/4000/socon/Championships/Tie-Breaking/Tie-breaking_Procedures_Football.pdf


If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered.

And here's the ASU Game Notes (Page 3)

http://www.goasu.com/pdf8/975331.pdf?DB_OEM_ID=21500


Three-way tie: ASU, GSU and WOF
Occurs if APP d. Furman (Sat.), WOF d. UTC (Sat.)
Winner will be determined by who finishes fourth in the final SoCon standings (based on APP, GSU and WOF each holding 1-1 head-to head records against each other)

if CIT, SAM and UTC tie for fourth place or CIT AND SAM tie for fourth place
occurs if SAM d. Elon (Sat.) and CIT d. FUR (Nov. 17), regardless of outcome of UTC/Elon (Nov. 17) or CIT, SAM and UTC lose their remaining conference games
winner will be determined based on fewest points allowed in SoCon games (GSU allowed 163, WOF has allowed 151 going into Sat.’s game vs. UTC, APP is eliminated with 210 allowed going into Sat.’s game vs. FUR).

if CIT and UTC tie for fourth place or CIT finishes alone in fourth place
occurs if Elon d. SAM (Sat.) and CIT d. FUR (Nov. 17), regardless of outcome of UTC/Elon (Nov. 17)
WOF wins (APP and GSU eliminated due to losses to CIT)

if SAM or UTC finish tied for fourth place
or either finish alone in fourth place occurs if SAM d. Elon (Sat.) and/or UTC d. Elon (Nov. 17) and FUR d. CIT (Nov. 17)
APP wins (WOF eliminated due to loss to SAM, APP wins based on head-to-head win over GSU)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

winner will be determined based on fewest points allowed in SoCon games (GSU allowed 163, WOF has allowed 151 going into Sat.’s game vs. UTC, APP is eliminated with 210 allowed going into Sat.’s game vs. FUR).


This is the part I really don't think is right at all. It's definitely "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie," because that's what was on the site last week. It's not "total points allowed in SoCon games". The other parts may be, depending on who "really finishes" in 4th place.

[walliver]

This is the part I really don't think is right at all. It's definitely "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie," because that's what was on the site last week. It's not "total points allowed in SoCon games". The other parts may be, depending on who "really finishes" in 4th place.

If that's the case, GSU wins
GSU 40, WC 45, ASU 66

GSU v WC 17-9, ASU v GSU 31-28, WC v ASU 38-28

[asucrutch23]

Actually, their tiebreaker, IMO is the best in FCS.

The fact that we have 5 or 6 different interpretations of the tiebreaker is what, IMO, makes it NOT the best in FCS. I would just like a definitive answer. While I'm fairly certain App is in even without the AQ, it would be nice to know for sure if we have it or not.

[walliver]

On a side note, it seems to me that if you are going to use points allowed as a metric, that overtime points should be excluded.
It is not uncommon for OT games to have very high scores as both offenses are playing short field games against tired defenses.
It wouldn't make any difference this year, but it could in the future.
GSU played 3 OT's vs Chattanooga, Wofford played 1 vs Chattanooga, giving up 7 and 3 points respectively.

[ElCid]

This is the part I really don't think is right at all. It's definitely "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie," because that's what was on the site last week. It's not "total points allowed in SoCon games". The other parts may be, depending on who "really finishes" in 4th place.

No it is not just points in games played among themselves, it is games played in SOCON. Otherwsie it would say

If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed bewteen the tied teams in games against the tied teams shall be considered. I edited it to "between" instead of among.

But it actually says

If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered.

"Among" does not limit it to just head to head games. It is limiting consideration to the tied teams.

Even if it says "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie," it still does not say "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie against teams reamining in the tie."

I will grant that it may not revert to head to head after record against the 5th place team is done, but if it does go to points it will be all SOCON points allowed by Ga So and APP and in that case it would be Ga So.

There is one thing for certain, the language must be cleaned up.

[james_lawfirm]

Why would you keep proceeding with the 3 team tiebreaker when there aren't 3 teams to break a tie between? Of course you revert back.

Read the rules again grasshopper.

[Mr. Pink]

I say we just give WOFF the AQ, they are the only ones that have a chance at not making the field(D2 win...). This would just guarantee 3 socon teams.

[GSUEagles#1]

On a side note, it seems to me that if you are going to use points allowed as a metric, that overtime points should be excluded.
It is not uncommon for OT games to have very high scores as both offenses are playing short field games against tired defenses.
It wouldn't make any difference this year, but it could in the future.
GSU played 3 OT's vs Chattanooga, Wofford played 1 vs Chattanooga, giving up 7 and 3 points respectively.

Are you serious?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No it is not just points in games played among themselves, it is games played in SOCON. Otherwsie it would say

If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed bewteen the tied teams in games against the tied teams shall be considered. I edited it to "between" instead of among.

But it actually says

If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered.

"Among" does not limit it to just head to head games. It is limiting consideration to the tied teams.

Even if it says "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie," it still does not say "points allowed by teams remaining in the tie against teams reamining in the tie."

I will grant that it may not revert to head to head after record against the 5th place team is done, but if it does go to points it will be all SOCON points allowed by Ga So and APP and in that case it would be Ga So.

There is one thing for certain, the language must be cleaned up.

I see the confusion now. One lousy word, "among". This tiebreak is actually based on the definition of the word "among". And, yes, there are two different definitions.


If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed by or through the aggregate of the tied teams shall be considered.

This implies the total number of points allowed in SoCon games.


If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed in company or association with the tied teams shall be considered.

This implies the total number of points allowed in the games between the two teams.

Wow.

[walliver]

I wonder if the rules posted on the web site are the "real" rules, or simply a summary of the rules?

You would think that after the 3 way tie a decade ago, they would have come up with a more specific plan.

My preference is that ties should be broken by reverse alphabetical order. :)

[ElCid]

I see the confusion now. One lousy word, "among". This tiebreak is actually based on the definition of the word "among". And, yes, there are two different definitions.



This implies the total number of points allowed in SoCon games.



This implies the total number of points allowed in the games between the two teams.

Wow.

My head hurts.

[GreatAppSt]

What he means is that:

* You have three teams in the tiebreaker
* You break ties for 4th place
* Chatty next, pass
* Samford next, Wofford lost to Samford, they fall out of the tie
* App and GSU beat everyone else
* Next tiebreaker is fewer defensive points allowed against teams in tie
* App gave up 28 points, GSU 31 (since they're the only teams left)

That's why App won the autobid already. Actually, their tiebreaker, IMO is the best in FCS.

Thank You LFN If it were only this simple.xrolleyesx

[GATA_Eagles]

My head hurts.

Just take care of business Saturday xlolx

[Edge316007]

Read the rules again grasshopper.

Tell me where it says you continue with the three team tiebreaker after Wofford has been eliminated. That makes no sense why that would happen. You don't continue with the three team tiebreaker when there aren't three teams to break a tie between. After Wofford is eliminated based on losing to Samford, you start over trying to break a tie between TWO teams, Appalachian and Georgia Southern. That one is simple.

It's really just common sense. Grasshopper.

[Grabholdofyosef]

I found this on the socon site. It is from several years ago but looks like it was updated in 2009. I assume because the top three are 1-1 against each other, you would then have to settle 4th - 6th, which looks to be Chatty, Samford and Citadel if they are all 5-3. Even if Chatty loses, Citadel will be 5th or 6th because they lost to Sam and Chatty. The tiebreaker rewards best win, not worse loss.

http://www.soconsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=4000&ATCLID=172480&SPID=1781&SPSID=21895

SoCon Tiebreaker Method: The first priority in breaking a tie is head to head competition . . . If two teams finish with identical conference records, then the tiebreaker goes to the team that won the regular season contest . . . If a tie exists between more than one team, then the first criteria remains head to head competition . . . Take each team?s record against the other teams that are involved in the tie . . . If one team?s record is superior to the other two, that team wins the tiebreaker . . . If one team?s record is inferior to the other two, that team is eliminated from the equation and the other two teams break their tie based on head to head competition . . . For example, if Team A, Team B and Team C all finish with 6-2 league records, but Team A is 2-0 vs. the other two tied teams, Team A wins the tie breaker . . . If team A was 0-2 vs. B and C, and B and C were both 1-1, then A is eliminated and B and C break their tie based on their head to head competition . . . If all three teams went 1-1 against each other, the next tiebreaker criteria is how each team fared against the next highest ranked team in the standings not involved in the tie . . . In the case of a three-way tie for first, it would be the fourth place team . . . If team A defeated Team D, while B and C lost to D, then A wins the tiebreaker . . . If C lost to D and A and B both won, then C is eliminated from the equation and A and B break their tie based on their head to head meeting . . . If the results against the next highest ranked team in the standings does not break the tie, then you continue down the standings until the tie is broken . . . If that does not break the tie, then it is decided by a blind draw.

[bullitt_60]

Can't this be solved effectively and fairly with rock, paper, scissors?

[gsugt1]

IMO the Socon office needs to come out and layout the scenarios. Enough of the what if this happens or that happens.

[MorgantonAPPAlum]

Can't this be solved effectively and fairly with rock, paper, scissors?

We'll take rock-17210:D

[james_lawfirm]

Tell me where it says you continue with the three team tiebreaker after Wofford has been eliminated. That makes no sense why that would happen. You don't continue with the three team tiebreaker when there aren't three teams to break a tie between. After Wofford is eliminated based on losing to Samford, you start over trying to break a tie between TWO teams, Appalachian and Georgia Southern. That one is simple.

It's really just common sense. Grasshopper.

Well, common sense it is not. That much is absolutely, 100% certain. Period.

Here be the rules:


B. In the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss records of the tied teams against each other is first considered (i.e., head to head concept). If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered. If the tie is still not broken, the teams’ won-loss record against the next highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken. If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered. If this does not resolve the tie, then the automatic bid will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Commissioner;

Read the part where it says "and so on down the line until the tie is broken." There. Nyah.

[james_lawfirm]

I say we just give WOFF the AQ, they are the only ones that have a chance at not making the field(D2 win...). This would just guarantee 3 socon teams.

YES!!! Ding, ding, ding. This is BRILLIANT! Which is why there's no chance in hell they'll do that.

[PaladinFan]

Wait a sec.

Furman beats its rival, and then it helps App State?

Furman loses to its rival, and then it helps Georgia Southern?

Talk about unenviable. Is there a third option where Furman can screw all three?

[MorgantonAPPAlum]

Wait a sec.

Furman beats its rival, and then it helps App State?

Furman loses to its rival, and then it helps Georgia Southern?

Talk about unenviable. Is there a third option where Furman can screw all three?

Win-that's two out of three! Which Meatloaf reliably assures me ain't bad.

[PaladinFan]

Win-that's two out of three! Which Meatloaf reliably assures me ain't bad.

I guess you are right. Winning is certainly the lesser of two evils.

[T-Dog]

I wrote about the tiebreaker in my article this week and the Watauga Democrat wrote the same thing.

http://www.yosefscabin.com/tpoeecas/

http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/Sports/story/ASU-waits-for-results-of-Furman-Citadel-game-id-009606

[ASUMountaineer]

Well, common sense it is not. That much is absolutely, 100% certain. Period.

Here be the rules:


B. In the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss records of the tied teams against each other is first considered (i.e., head to head concept). If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered. If the tie is still not broken, the teams’ won-loss record against the next highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken. If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered. If this does not resolve the tie, then the automatic bid will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Commissioner;

Read the part where it says "and so on down the line until the tie is broken." There. Nyah.

But, wouldn't the three-way tie have been broken once WoCo is eliminated? Isn't that what rule B addresses, three-way ties? I'm not saying you're wrong, just posing a question.

[james_lawfirm]

But, wouldn't the three-way tie have been broken once WoCo is eliminated? Isn't that what rule B addresses, three-way ties? I'm not saying you're wrong, just posing a question.

Hmmm, interesting question. Wofford is eliminated, by virtue of losing to Sammy, but the tie is NOT broken b/w GaSo & App. I read the rules to mean that after eliminating Woffie, then the rules state you just go down through remaining teams to compare GaSo & App's record. And, GaSo gets the AQ based on "fewest points allowed".

However, if you are correct, and then you revert back to the 2-way tie rule of comparing head-to-head, then you're right, App gets the AQ. The most that can be said here is that the rules are not clear. If I had to choose though, I believe that the rules do not intend to imply that you go back to a head-to-head after eliminating Woffie.

What an absolute cluster!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fortunately, it appears that both GaSo & App will make the playoffs. So, the AQ designation will not actually make much difference.

[rokamortis]

I wrote about the tiebreaker in my article this week and the Watauga Democrat wrote the same thing.

http://www.yosefscabin.com/tpoeecas/

http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/Sports/story/ASU-waits-for-results-of-Furman-Citadel-game-id-009606

Good post. To clarify the Big South - Liberty, Coastal, and Stony Brook are all alive.
Liberty Win / Coastal Win = Coastal gets AQ
Liberty Win / Coastal Loss = Liberty gets AQ
Liberty Loses / Coastal win or lose = Stony Brook gets AQ

[ASUMountaineer]

Hmmm, interesting question. Wofford is eliminated, by virtue of losing to Sammy, but the tie is NOT broken b/w GaSo & App. I read the rules to mean that after eliminating Woffie, then the rules state you just go down through remaining teams to compare GaSo & App's record. And, GaSo gets the AQ based on "fewest points allowed".

However, if you are correct, and then you revert back to the 2-way tie rule of comparing head-to-head, then you're right, App gets the AQ. The most that can be said here is that the rules are not clear. If I had to choose though, I believe that the rules do not intend to imply that you go back to a head-to-head after eliminating Woffie.

What an absolute cluster!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fortunately, it appears that both GaSo & App will make the playoffs. So, the AQ designation will not actually make much difference.

I certainly agree that it's a fluster cluck, and in the end won't really matter. The SoCon should be really concerned that they didn't get their money's worth with whomever they hired to write/approve that language.

I read it as a rule for a particular situation, a three-way tie. And that the rule only applies to three-way ties, as the goal is to break the three-way tie. Meaning that once the three-way tie is broken, a new situation arises with a two-way tie, so the rules for a two-way tie would be considered.

Who knows if that is the interpretation the SoCon will take? The SoCon may not know at this point. We'll all find out soon enough anyways, but it is interesting to discuss.

[PaladinFan]

At the end of the day, even if Wofford gets the AQ App and GSU get home games and Wofford will have to go on the road to Nowhere, Midwest for a game. What's the big fuss?

[biggie]

May depend on if the committee sees the autobid as a plus over other non AQ teams. Could help hold GSU up after an FBS loss, or if enough of the top 7 lose this weekend it could help App sneak into a 5 seed. All guessing games though.

And its only GSU and App hoping for it, Woff can't get it.

[ElCid]

I read it as a rule for a particular situation, a three-way tie. And that the rule only applies to three-way ties, as the goal is to break the three-way tie. Meaning that once the three-way tie is broken, a new situation arises with a two-way tie, so the rules for a two-way tie would be considered.

That is the way I read it as well. Why would you continue with the three way tie procedure when it has been broken. There may be clauses we are not seeing that relate to this and this whole issue is moot.

[ASUMountaineer]

That is the way I read it as well. Why would you continue with the three way tie procedure when it has been broken. There may be clauses we are not seeing that relate to this and this whole issue is moot.

Yup, it's a waiting game now until we get the SoCon's interpretation. What a poorly written process.

[Grabholdofyosef]

The article from the democrat is assuming the conference would not settle the tie for 4th.

I believe the intent is to use the tiebreak system to break any ties first. The 1-3 spots can not be settled without settling the 4-6 spots, so I believe they would settle that first, then settle 1-3 using the tiebreak system for more than two teams until it gets down to two teams, then use head-to-head. Using that logic, Samford will finish above Citadel, and the Samford game will knock Wofford out. Asu then wins with the head to head over GSU.

[ASUMountaineer]

The article from the democrat is assuming the conference would not settle the tie for 4th.

I believe the intent is to use the tiebreak system to break any ties first. The 1-3 spots can not be settled without settling the 4-6 spots, so I believe they would settle that first, then settle 1-3 using the tiebreak system for more than two teams until it gets down to two teams, then use head-to-head. Using that logic, Samford will finish above Citadel, and the Samford game will knock Wofford out. Asu then wins with the head to head over GSU.

This makes the most sense to me, but we'll see what the SoCon thinks.

[walliver]

The auto-bid is really meaningless between GSU and ASU.
It is common for an at-large to get a seed over an auto-bid from the same conference.

[ASUMountaineer]

Here's another thought, just for shiggles...is there any possible tiebreaker scenario where WoCo can win the autobid? If not, could they say "Screw it, go by head-to-head with the only teams capable of winning a tiebreaker?" Wouldn't that just piss off GSU fans? xlolx

[Skjellyfetti]

Wouldn't that just piss off GSU fans? xlolx

No. GSU fans are very level headed and tend to get over breaks that do not go their way in a reasonable amount of time. xwhistlex

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Here's another thought, just for shiggles...is there any possible tiebreaker scenario where WoCo can win the autobid? If not, could they say "Screw it, go by head-to-head with the only teams capable of winning a tiebreaker?" Wouldn't that just piss off GSU fans? xlolx

I would rather Wofford win it than App. State. They have had to play @ GSU, @ App., @ Samford, and managed to beat Chatty without their starting QB. I think they are more deserving, and plus, hell will freeze over before the committee will leave out 8-3 GSU and App teams that don't win the autobid, but they might leave out Wofford if they are not the AQ team.

[eaglewraith]

From: http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12



The league office put it to me simply.

"If Citadel beats Furman, the AQ goes to Georgia Southern," they said. "If Furman beats The Citadel, the AQ goes to Appalachian State."

[ASUMountaineer]

I would rather Wofford win it than App. State. They have had to play @ GSU, @ App., @ Samford, and managed to beat Chatty without their starting QB. I think they are more deserving, and plus, hell will freeze over before the committee will leave out 8-3 GSU and App teams that don't win the autobid, but they might leave out Wofford if they are not the AQ team.

But, I don't think there is a scenario where WoCo can win the autobid. So, you're desire, though admirable, doesn't seem possible.

[ASUMountaineer]

No. GSU fans are very level headed and tend to get over breaks that do not go their way in a reasonable amount of time. xwhistlex

You're right. :o

[ASUMountaineer]

From: http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12

It's amazing to me that an explanation that simple couldn't be as simply deduced from the rules. The SoCon needs to ask for a refund from whomever they paid to write the tie-breaker process. Unreal.

[eaglewraith]

It's amazing to me that an explanation that simple couldn't be as simply deduced from the rules. The SoCon needs to ask for a refund from whomever they paid to write the tie-breaker process. Unreal.

I agree.

That tie-breaker reads as clear as mud.

[james_lawfirm]

From: http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12

Wraith:

The link you posted includes a statement that they confirmed with the SoCon office that if Furman beats El Cit then ASU gets the AQ, otherwise GaSo gets it. FWIW (very little), I think the SoCon office has misread their own rules. As I have stated before, I do NOT think the rules go back to a head-to-head after you look at the #4 team. I also think this year that both App & GaSo get into the playoffs this year. However, it is easy to imagine a scenario where a SoCon team is denied an AQ, through a misreading of the rules, and does not make it into the playoffs (not this year, but perhaps in future years). That would be extremely unfortunate.

I hereby publicly call for the SoCon to re-write their rules to be understandable and un-ambiguous. I volunteer to help. The Commish can just PM me.

[gsueagle2424]

No. GSU fans are very level headed and tend to get over breaks that do not go their way in a reasonable amount of time. xwhistlex

It was a saftey and he was out of bounds!! :D

[jonmac]

Wraith:

The link you posted includes a statement that they confirmed with the SoCon office that if Furman beats El Cit then ASU gets the AQ, otherwise GaSo gets it. FWIW (very little), I think the SoCon office has misread their own rules. As I have stated before, I do NOT think the rules go back to a head-to-head after you look at the #4 team. I also think this year that both App & GaSo get into the playoffs this year. However, it is easy to imagine a scenario where a SoCon team is denied an AQ, through a misreading of the rules, and does not make it into the playoffs (not this year, but perhaps in future years). That would be extremely unfortunate.

I hereby publicly call for the SoCon to re-write their rules to be understandable and un-ambiguous. I volunteer to help. The Commish can just PM me.

I, on the other hand, have a hard time seeing where it wouldn't divert back to head-to-head once one of the three is eliminated according to the three way tiebreaker rules. Once one of the three is eliminated what remains is a tie between two teams and there is a separate rule for that. It would be senseless to end up drawing straws for a 2 team tie when the other criteria don't settle it. It could be likened to a golf playoff when three players are tied. When one player is an outright loser the other two continue in a head-to-head match until a winner is determined.

[james_lawfirm]

I, on the other hand, have a hard time seeing where it wouldn't divert back to head-to-head once one of the three is eliminated according to the three way tiebreaker rules. Once one of the three is eliminated what remains is a tie between two teams and there is a separate rule for that. It would be senseless to end up drawing straws for a 2 team tie when the other criteria don't settle it. It could be likened to a golf playoff when three players are tied. When one player is an outright loser the other two continue in a head-to-head match until a winner is determined.

You're right, except for the fact that the wording of the rules does NOT say you revert back to a head-to-head. At best, it is unclear. It does say you keep on going down the list until the tie is broken. Golf is irrelevant.

[ASUMountaineer]

Wraith:

The link you posted includes a statement that they confirmed with the SoCon office that if Furman beats El Cit then ASU gets the AQ, otherwise GaSo gets it. FWIW (very little), I think the SoCon office has misread their own rules. As I have stated before, I do NOT think the rules go back to a head-to-head after you look at the #4 team. I also think this year that both App & GaSo get into the playoffs this year. However, it is easy to imagine a scenario where a SoCon team is denied an AQ, through a misreading of the rules, and does not make it into the playoffs (not this year, but perhaps in future years). That would be extremely unfortunate.

I hereby publicly call for the SoCon to re-write their rules to be understandable and un-ambiguous. I volunteer to help. The Commish can just PM me.

I'll be glad to help too. With your law degree and experience, and my one year of so-so grades in law school, we should be able to knock out and easy-to-understand rule that makes sense. xlolx

[nwFL Griz]

You're right, except for the fact that the wording of the rules does NOT say you revert back to a head-to-head. At best, it is unclear. It does say you keep on going down the list until the tie is broken. Golf is irrelevant.

Not that I have a dog in this hunt, but your interpretation would make the SoCon method of breaking a three way tie, probably the only system in the history of tie-breaking that doesn't revert back to head-to-head after eliminating the third team. Not saying your interpretation is wrong.

[Eaglesrus]

I, on the other hand, have a hard time seeing where it wouldn't divert back to head-to-head once one of the three is eliminated according to the three way tiebreaker rules.

I, on the other hand, have no problem with that, at least not this year. :D

PS Go Bulldogs!!

[klak]

I'll be glad to help too. With your law degree and experience, and my one year of so-so grades in law school, we should be able to knock out and easy-to-understand rule that makes sense. xlolx

Or we could all poop in a cup and it would be easier to understand than the current rules.

[ASUMountaineer]

Or we could all poop in a cup and it would be easier to understand than the current rules.

xlolx

[MorgantonAPPAlum]

Or we could all poop in a cup and it would be easier to understand than the current rules.

Two teams, one cup.

[jonmac]

You're right, except for the fact that the wording of the rules does NOT say you revert back to a head-to-head. At best, it is unclear. It does say you keep on going down the list until the tie is broken. Golf is irrelevant.

The rule states(taken from post #11)
Championship Determination Tie-breaking Procedures: The Southern Conference champion shall be the team that finishes with the best won-loss percentage in Conference games during the regular season. In the case that two or more schools finish with identical won-loss records, they shall be declared co-champions.

NCAA Automatic Bid Tie-breaking Procedures: The Conference champion shall be awarded an automatic bid to the NCAA FCS Playoffs, provided it is eligible to compete in the post-season under NCAA guidelines. In the event that co-champions are declared, the automatic bid will be awarded as follows:
A. In the case of a two-way tie, the automatic bid will be awarded to the winner of the game between the tied teams during the regular season;
B. In the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss records of the tied teams against each other is first considered (i.e., head to head concept). If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered. If the tie is still not broken, the teams’ won-loss record against the next highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken. If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered. If this does not resolve the tie, then the automatic bid will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Commissioner;
C. In the event of multiple ties after a three-way tie, the same procedure as used to break a three-way tie will be applied until the tie is broken.

Since we have a 3-way tie we must look at Section B. It does say "and so on down the line until the tie is broken". The tie in question here is the 3-way tie. When the 3-way tie is broken Section B no longer applies. Section A now applies and ASU won the head-to-head matchup with GSU thus leaving ASU with the auto bid. This a not only a reasonable assumption but also a valid interpretation. I will withdraw my golf analogy but still think it lends some relevance. I will also agree that it is unclear. It is also moot since it will have no bearing on seeding for either team involved(I just enjoy debating with lawyers.) Even if GSU is named the autobid we beat them and should be given a (higher)seed if one is available based on outcomes this weekend. In other words I think the committee will consider the head-to-head matchup over the autobid if and when seeding is involved.

[cbarrier90]

Hey, maybe if we post the official rule from the SoCon again we'll all understand it!

[ASUMountaineer]

Hey, maybe if we post the official rule from the SoCon again we'll all understand it!

I don't know...I think it may take a minimum of three more times.

[eaglewraith]

The rule states(taken from post #11)
Championship Determination Tie-breaking Procedures: The Southern Conference champion shall be the team that finishes with the best won-loss percentage in Conference games during the regular season. In the case that two or more schools finish with identical won-loss records, they shall be declared co-champions.

NCAA Automatic Bid Tie-breaking Procedures: The Conference champion shall be awarded an automatic bid to the NCAA FCS Playoffs, provided it is eligible to compete in the post-season under NCAA guidelines. In the event that co-champions are declared, the automatic bid will be awarded as follows:
A. In the case of a two-way tie, the automatic bid will be awarded to the winner of the game between the tied teams during the regular season;
B. In the event of a three-way tie, the won-loss records of the tied teams against each other is first considered (i.e., head to head concept). If the teams are still tied, then each team’s record against the highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered. If the tie is still not broken, the teams’ won-loss record against the next highest seeded team not involved in the tie is considered and so on down the line until the tie is broken. If the tie is still not broken, the team with the fewest points allowed among the tied teams shall be considered. If this does not resolve the tie, then the automatic bid will be determined by a random draw conducted by the Commissioner;
C. In the event of multiple ties after a three-way tie, the same procedure as used to break a three-way tie will be applied until the tie is broken.

Since we have a 3-way tie we must look at Section B. It does say "and so on down the line until the tie is broken". The tie in question here is the 3-way tie. When the 3-way tie is broken Section B no longer applies. Section A now applies and ASU won the head-to-head matchup with GSU thus leaving ASU with the auto bid. This a not only a reasonable assumption but also a valid interpretation. I will withdraw my golf analogy but still think it lends some relevance. I will also agree that it is unclear. It is also moot since it will have no bearing on seeding for either team involved(I just enjoy debating with lawyers.) Even if GSU is named the autobid we beat them and should be given a (higher)seed if one is available based on outcomes this weekend. In other words I think the committee will consider the head-to-head matchup over the autobid if and when seeding is involved.

Except that you have to fully resolve the tie between all 3 teams. Dropping one off and going to head to head doesn't do that. By no team having a significant advantage in opponents' records outside of the tie breaker, you go to points allowed. That is the final step to resolve between the THREE teams in the tiebreaker.

Never does it say that a team is eliminated from the tiebreaker at any step, just that the tie will be broken. You require ONE single winner to break the tiebreaker, not elimination of one and then compare head to head.

[Mr. Pink]

Not sure how reputable the source is but this guy is saying that the SOCON league office has given confirmation that if El Cid wins, GSU gets it, a Paladin win gives it to ASU.

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12

[eaglewraith]

Not sure how reputable the source is but this guy is saying that the SOCON league office has given confirmation that if El Cid wins, GSU gets it, a Paladin win gives it to ASU.

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12


From: http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/ncaa-division-i-sports/fcs-football/566-playoffs-til-i-die-picking-the-fcs-playoff-bracket-week-12


The league office put it to me simply.

"If Citadel beats Furman, the AQ goes to Georgia Southern," they said. "If Furman beats The Citadel, the AQ goes to Appalachian State."


Hmmmm

[james_lawfirm]

Except that you have to fully resolve the tie between all 3 teams. Dropping one off and going to head to head doesn't do that. By no team having a significant advantage in opponents' records outside of the tie breaker, you go to points allowed. That is the final step to resolve between the THREE teams in the tiebreaker.

Never does it say that a team is eliminated from the tiebreaker at any step, just that the tie will be broken. You require ONE single winner to break the tiebreaker, not elimination of one and then compare head to head.

I agree. Those who revert back to the head-to-head to decide things are doing so, not as a result of any language found in the rules, but because "we've always done that". That's a scary way to run a railroad.

Again, I call for the SoCon to clean their dad-gum ambiguous language up. I can imagine that one day, when it matters, like if App was ranked 19th, and was tied for 1st in the SoCon (w/ Woffie & GaSo) and if the AQ meant going to the playoffs or not getting in at all, then in that case, somebody (like App) is gonna file a lawsuit to declare what the language means. What an absolute cluster that would be. That worry is removed if the rules are clean and understandable. Please fix.

[jonmac]

Except that you have to fully resolve the tie between all 3 teams. Dropping one off and going to head to head doesn't do that. By no team having a significant advantage in opponents' records outside of the tie breaker, you go to points allowed. That is the final step to resolve between the THREE teams in the tiebreaker.

Never does it say that a team is eliminated from the tiebreaker at any step, just that the tie will be broken. You require ONE single winner to break the tiebreaker, not elimination of one and then compare head to head.

Just for argument's sake, because it's fun, I would still contend that when one team in a three-way tie is eliminated then the three-way tie is broken and it becomes a two way tie. I will revert back to my golf analogy. With a three-way tie play does not continue until there is one clear winner. Now I do imagine the official golf rules state that once one of the three(or more) is eliminated they are no longer in the competition. It would make sense for the SoCon to clear that up but I still think it should be understood with the current language. My argument my not hold up in court but I think it is valid.

[seantaylor]

And Mr. Mullet wrong yet again.

[theasushow]

BUMP looks like UTC and Citadel is going to come out with wins. Does this mean GSU gets the autobid?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Glad the tiebreaker will come down to some measure of performance across the board in conference and not performance against one opponent.

[hapapp]

BUMP looks like UTC and Citadel is going to come out with wins. Does this mean GSU gets the autobid?

That's my understanding.

[GSUhooligan]

They should just do a 3 way tie by point differential between the 3 teams. That's fair and clear cut. Sure this year that benefits GSU, but in another year it may not. At least that would keep the tie breaker between the 3 teams in the tie breaker and not rely on a 4th or 5th team's performance.

[Edge316007]

Glad the tiebreaker will come down to some measure of performance across the board in conference and not performance against one opponent.

Yeah, let's reward running up the score instead of quality wins or head to head. GSU got the auto based on a crappy tiebreaker system. Nothing more.

[eaglewraith]

Yeah, let's reward running up the score instead of quality wins or head to head. GSU got the auto based on a crappy tiebreaker system. Nothing more.

Lot of folks through the course of discussing who may get it think that we have the most solid tiebreaker in FCS. It's just worded poorly. Look at the mess the CAA is in, that's a horrible tiebreaker policy. Don't get mad just because we got it.

[Edge316007]

Except it is horrible. Even if App got it, I'd be annoyed with the tiebreaker itself. Why would you not break a tie for 4th when it's so easy to do so? Chattanooga beat them both and Samford beat The Citadel. That's so much cleaner and makes a ton more sense than taking them as a group, something I've never heard of in any sport ever. You're rewarding a team for putting up 70 points on Western rather than how they fared against better competition. In what way is that a better solution? Furthermore, why would you not revert to a 2-team tiebreaker once the 3rd team in the 3-team tiebreaker falls out? This is all kinds of stupid.

[eaglewraith]

Except it is horrible. Even if App got it, I'd be annoyed with the tiebreaker itself. Why would you not break a tie for 4th when it's so easy to do so? Chattanooga beat them both and Samford beat The Citadel. That's so much cleaner and makes a ton more sense than taking them as a group, something I've never heard of in any sport ever. You're rewarding a team for putting up 70 points on Western rather than how they fared against better competition. In what way is that a better solution? Furthermore, why would you not revert to a 2-team tiebreaker once the 3rd team in the 3-team tiebreaker falls out? This is all kinds of stupid.

You're not rewarding a team for putting up 70 on Western. The tiebreaker that decided this was points ALLOWED, not points scored. So you letting Citadel score 50 hurt you.

Also, to resolve a 3 way tie, you have to fully resolve it in ONE step, not eliminate one team then fall back to head to head. That's what this does.