How is the Patriot League AQ Determined?

[carney2]

The past two seasons the Patriot League has ended in a two-way tie. The playoff automatic qualifier (AQ) went to the winner of the head to head matchup of the two teams:

Lafayette beat Lehigh in 2004 and became the AQ;

Colgate beat Lafayette in 2005 and became the AQ.

What happens if - as is a very real possibility - there is a 3-way tie? For instance, let's say that this is a "homer" year for the preseason top 3 teams in the League with

Colgate beating Lafayette,
Lehigh beating Colgate, and
Lafayette beating Lehigh.

Also, let's assume that none of the 3 lose any other League games. How would the AQ be determined?

In a completely unrelated and demented (it is me, after all) commentary, I notice that the 2006 Football Media Guide lists 103 members of the 2006 Lafayette College football squad. Demonstrating yet again that I have no life, I have calculated (after assuming a 50-50 split of males vs. females in the undergraduate population since I could find nothing better) that 8.8% of the entire undergraduate male population is out on that field in pads. It causes me to ask how this stacks up against other small schools playing D-I football (A or AA, I don't care). Furman? Wofford? Elon? Anyone?

[jimbo65]

What makes you think all the LaFayette fballers are males?

[carney2]

What makes you think all the LaFayette fballers are males?

Very mean spirited, but I must admit that I have undertaken no personal inspections to settle this long standing dispute. There were, of course, years - many years, actually - when this was a more relevant question than it is today.

[colgate13]

If it's a three way tie, it comes down to either the head coaches or ADs of the other 4 schools to vote for the autobid. They are supposed to take into account national rankings, if any. So IMHO, the autobid goes to the highest ranked team, whatever ranking they would choose to use.

[carney2]

If it's a three way tie, it comes down to either the head coaches or ADs of the other 4 schools to vote for the autobid. They are supposed to take into account national rankings, if any. So IMHO, the autobid goes to the highest ranked team, whatever ranking they would choose to use.

Pretty arbitrary, but it beats comparative scores, scores vs. common opponents, or any other rule that encourages running up the score during the year. It also pays not to tick off any of the potential voters, I guess.

[ngineer]

I recall this scenario being debated in the past few years--especially in 2004. Assuming all three 5-1, and losses only to each other, then I think '13' is correct that is comes down to the AD's using such measuring sticks as rankings and quality of OOC wins--which also reminds that overall records could have significant impact.

[jimbo65]

Very mean spirited, but I must admit that I have undertaken no personal inspections to settle this long standing dispute. There were, of course, years - many years, actually - when this was a more relevant question than it is today.

Just kidding, I believe that Columbia Football uses the transgender types. Actually, a three way tie is somewhat probable. Can you imagine the pressure/shenanigans going on to determine the champ, particularly if the PL was only getting one bid in the year of a three way tie. They truly should consider cutting a deck or paper, rock, scissors, both of which would be more objective (fair) than letting the other coaches or ADs vote. Also, imagine if one of the three teams tied were an "outsider" Fordham, Gtown (not that this will happen this year). Talk about getting jobbed. Oh well with four votes and three candidates there can't be a tie unless our AD at Fordham forgets who the three finalists are and votes for say Holy Cross.

[th0m]

In a completely unrelated and demented (it is me, after all) commentary, I notice that the 2006 Football Media Guide lists 103 members of the 2006 Lafayette College football squad. Demonstrating yet again that I have no life, I have calculated (after assuming a 50-50 split of males vs. females in the undergraduate population since I could find nothing better) that 8.8% of the entire undergraduate male population is out on that field in pads. It causes me to ask how this stacks up against other small schools playing D-I football (A or AA, I don't care). Furman? Wofford? Elon? Anyone?

If I were to use the collegeboard.com data, which has Lafayette College at an enrollment of 2,310 undergrad students, of which 54% is male, you would come to 8.3% ;) Still a very high percentage! How about all of the male (or female for that matter) athletes?

Using JMU's numbers, 15,287 undergrad students, 36% male, and 89 football players. That would give us an unsurprisingly low percentage of 1.6 :D

I think Wofford with only 1,163 undergrads could give you a run for your money! Furman at 2,774 and 46% male could be close as well.

[carney2]

If I were to use the collegeboard.com data, which has Lafayette College at an enrollment of 2,310 undergrad students, of which 54% is male, you would come to 8.3% ;) Still a very high percentage! How about all of the male (or female for that matter) athletes?

Using JMU's numbers, 15,287 undergrad students, 36% male, and 89 football players. That would give us an unsurprisingly low percentage of 1.6 :D

I think Wofford with only 1,163 undergrads could give you a run for your money! Furman at 2,774 and 46% male could be close as well.

My guess is that you did pretty well in Statistics 101. I used the College's currently announced enrollment of 2,346 and did not think of going to the College Board or other published sources for the male-female split. Using the 54% male ratio that you found and applying it to my data drops the figure even lower - to 8.1%.

Wofford would indeed give us a "run for our money." With 1,163 undergrads and a 55%/45% M/F split, they would need only a football roster of 52 or 53 to come in at a higher rate. Gotta be a done deal. Gotta be over 10%.

Still, the 8.1% figure means that about 1 out of every 12 male students is involved in the football program. That is mind boggling. If football season weren't coming up and if I didn't love it so much, I would be tempted to begin another thread about the tail wagging the dog...

[bison137]

If it's a three way tie, it comes down to either the head coaches or ADs of the other 4 schools to vote for the autobid. They are supposed to take into account national rankings, if any. So IMHO, the autobid goes to the highest ranked team, whatever ranking they would choose to use.

This is only partly correct. If the three teams all are 1-1 vs each other, the next tiebreaker is their record vs common out-of-league opponents. In the case of a tie between LU, LC, and Colgate, this would mean that their respective results vs Princeton, the only common opponent, would be the next tiebreaker. (Of course in the case of a tie between other groups of three, then other common opponents might exist.)

If a tie still exists, the rules require the athletic directors of the other four schools to make a final decision, "considering each of the following, in no particular order: . a). strength of schedule; b). overall record; and c). computer rankings."

Note that there is no mention about looking at any rankings that are based on voting, only 3 items to be considered: SOS, overall record, and computer rankings.

Three out of the four AD's must agree on one team, so it could be a long process if two or more teams are very close based on the criteria. There is no mention of what happens if they cannot agree.

[Mr. C]

The OVC was ready to draw straws if Jacksonville State had beaten Eastern Illinois in the final game of league play last year and left JSU, EIU and Eastern Kentucky in a three-way tie. I'd say use the GPI to rank the teams and allow them to represent the conference with the auto bid.

[blukeys]

Ignore what you read. A three way tie is determined by Colgate13, ngineer and Pard4 life meeting in a motel room in Bradford Pa. (neutral territory and no woman in Bradford will distract anyone from the task at hand) for a three way battle of Rock, Paper, scissors. 6 liters of Daneka Vodka are there for inspiration. Originally they tried to play 3 way Rock, Paper, Scissors but then they realized that if 13 had Rock and ngineer had paper and Pard had scissors no one could figure out who won!!!! (We now know the REAL reason none of these guys went to an Ivy league school. )

At any rate after 12 hours of THE GAME and countless numbers of lemon drop shooters using the smoothest Vodka in the world the AQ is determined either by the school representative with the highest win rate or the one who can leave the motel room on his own 2 feet.

Video of this unique PL. event is available but one has to be willing to pay more than ngineer is willing to pay for no one to see the tape. (seems ngineer is the only male in Pa. who is unresistant to the charms of Bradford girls.)

[ngineer]

This is only partly correct. If the three teams all are 1-1 vs each other, the next tiebreaker is their record vs common out-of-league opponents. In the case of a tie between LU, LC, and Colgate, this would mean that their respective results vs Princeton, the only common opponent, would be the next tiebreaker. (Of course in the case of a tie between other groups of three, then other common opponents might exist.)

If a tie still exists, the rules require the athletic directors of the other four schools to make a final decision, "considering each of the following, in no particular order: . a). strength of schedule; b). overall record; and c). computer rankings."

Note that there is no mention about looking at any rankings that are based on voting, only 3 items to be considered: SOS, overall record, and computer rankings.

Three out of the four AD's must agree on one team, so it could be a long process if two or more teams are very close based on the criteria. There is no mention of what happens if they cannot agree.

How will we know--white smoke comin' out the chimney??:D

[ngineer]

Ignore what you read. A three way tie is determined by Colgate13, ngineer and Pard4 life meeting in a motel room in Bradford Pa. (neutral territory and no woman in Bradford will distract anyone from the task at hand) for a three way battle of Rock, Paper, scissors. 6 liters of Daneka Vodka are there for inspiration. Originally they tried to play 3 way Rock, Paper, Scissors but then they realized that if 13 had Rock and ngineer had paper and Pard had scissors no one could figure out who won!!!! (We now know the REAL reason none of these guys went to an Ivy league school. )

At any rate after 12 hours of THE GAME and countless numbers of lemon drop shooters using the smoothest Vodka in the world the AQ is determined either by the school representative with the highest win rate or the one who can leave the motel room on his own 2 feet.

Video of this unique PL. event is available but one has to be willing to pay more than ngineer is willing to pay for no one to see the tape. (seems ngineer is the only male in Pa. who is unresistant to the charms of Bradford girls.)

xlolx :D :hurray: :hurray: xlolx xlolx :bow:

Love it....and, Bradford!;)

[colgate13]

Thanks for bringing the solid info bison137. And look out Ken_Z... that's TWO Bucknell fans on AGS. This could be a sign! :)

[Pard4Life]

Thanks for bringing the solid info bison137. And look out Ken_Z... that's TWO Bucknell fans on AGS. This could be a sign! :)

I hope bison137 is a Bucknellian and not a North Dakota man... but yes he is right... without going to my filebox the first tie breaker after head-to-head is record vs. common opponents. This year there will be many... Yale, Princeton, Harvard.. Yale and Harvard are common with Lehigh and Lafayette.. Princeton with Lafayette and Colgate.. and I don't think any between Colgate and Lehigh...

ps... I think that is two Bucknellians... as many as Fordham! (Joltin joe and Fordham)... Bucknell actually has three... 'ray Bucknell.. but he has never posted... interestingly enough, I think the Pards have the most in the PL!

[carney2]

[/B]

How will we know--white smoke comin' out the chimney??:D

No. Maroon and white smoke.

[Pard4Life]

Ignore what you read. A three way tie is determined by Colgate13, ngineer and Pard4 life meeting in a motel room in Bradford Pa. (neutral territory and no woman in Bradford will distract anyone from the task at hand) for a three way battle of Rock, Paper, scissors. 6 liters of Daneka Vodka are there for inspiration. Originally they tried to play 3 way Rock, Paper, Scissors but then they realized that if 13 had Rock and ngineer had paper and Pard had scissors no one could figure out who won!!!! (We now know the REAL reason none of these guys went to an Ivy league school. )

At any rate after 12 hours of THE GAME and countless numbers of lemon drop shooters using the smoothest Vodka in the world the AQ is determined either by the school representative with the highest win rate or the one who can leave the motel room on his own 2 feet.

Video of this unique PL. event is available but one has to be willing to pay more than ngineer is willing to pay for no one to see the tape. (seems ngineer is the only male in Pa. who is unresistant to the charms of Bradford girls.)

Ha.. that's easy, Lafayette would win because scissors can be used as a lethal object and one can always dodge a rock.. :rotateh:

[colgate13]

I hope bison137 is a Bucknellian and not a North Dakota man... but yes he is right... without going to my filebox the first tie breaker after head-to-head is record vs. common opponents. This year there will be many... Yale, Princeton, Harvard.. Yale and Harvard are common with Lehigh and Lafayette.. Princeton with Lafayette and Colgate.. and I don't think any between Colgate and Lehigh...

ps... I think that is two Bucknellians... as many as Fordham! (Joltin joe and Fordham)... Bucknell actually has three... 'ray Bucknell.. but he has never posted... interestingly enough, I think the Pards have the most in the PL!

bison137 is definitely from Bucknell. he's around on other boards - a student I think.

Fordham has more than Joe and Fordham. Jimbo65 is a Fordham guy, and I believe there is another one out there too.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

VMI and Wofford's percentages are very high too - I think both are actually higher than 10%.

[bison137]

I hope bison137 is a Bucknellian and not a North Dakota man... but yes he is right... without going to my filebox the first tie breaker after head-to-head is record vs. common opponents. This year there will be many... Yale, Princeton, Harvard.. Yale and Harvard are common with Lehigh and Lafayette.. Princeton with Lafayette and Colgate.. and I don't think any between Colgate and Lehigh...

ps... I think that is two Bucknellians... as many as Fordham! (Joltin joe and Fordham)... Bucknell actually has three... 'ray Bucknell.. but he has never posted... interestingly enough, I think the Pards have the most in the PL!

Colgate and Lehigh do have a common opponent: Princeton, who also plays Lafayette. If I were CU, LU, and LC, I would be treating the Princeton game as a "must win" since a 3-way tie between the three is certainly possible and Princeton would be the first tiebreaker if that happened.

I don't expect Bucknell to be in any tiebreaker but I do believe they will be much improved. My expectation is a 3-3 PL record and 5 or 6 wins overall. I base this on 16 returning starters plus the fact that last year's team had their worst season injury-wise in at least two decades and yet was still close in five of the six PL games. For example, at Lafayette they were still tied with two minutes remaining, and they actually had a 7-point fourth quarter lead at Colgate. And this was with all three QB's lost for the season by Week 3 and a converted DB playing QB, a position he never played before. With an above average group of frosh coming in, if they have any luck injury-wise I think they will surprise some people.

[Pard4Life]

Colgate and Lehigh do have a common opponent: Princeton, who also plays Lafayette. If I were CU, LU, and LC, I would be treating the Princeton game as a "must win" since a 3-way tie between the three is certainly possible and Princeton would be the first tiebreaker if that happened.

I don't expect Bucknell to be in any tiebreaker but I do believe they will be much improved. My expectation is a 3-3 PL record and 5 or 6 wins overall. I base this on 16 returning starters plus the fact that last year's team had their worst season injury-wise in at least two decades and yet was still close in five of the six PL games. For example, at Lafayette they were still tied with two minutes remaining, and they actually had a 7-point fourth quarter lead at Colgate. And this was with all three QB's lost for the season by Week 3 and a converted DB playing QB, a position he never played before. With an above average group of frosh coming in, if they have any luck injury-wise I think they will surprise some people.

Ok, did not know Lehigh played Princeton. But yes it is a must win and we have a bad history against the Tigers.

Excellent insight on Bucknell.. that's a hopeful assesment but it is possible. I was on pins and neddles that entire Bucknell game. Plus we were playing poorly.

[colgate13]

Excellent insight on Bucknell.. that's a hopeful assesment but it is possible. I was on pins and neddles that entire Bucknell game. Plus we were playing poorly.

The trouble with using those kinds of games are that they are a poor barometer of a team's capability. By the time Bucknell played Lafayette they were 1-6. By the time they played Colgate they were 1-8.

Frankly, it's hard for a team like Lafayette or Colgate to 'bring it' at their highest level when facing a team with a record like that. Those are dangerous games, but mostly because of the lack of concentration on the winners part.

The fact that a team like Lafayette or Colgate could play so poorly and still win says something different to me. xcoffeex

[Ken_Z]

Thanks for bringing the solid info bison137. And look out Ken_Z... that's TWO Bucknell fans on AGS. This could be a sign! :)

definitely a sign of things to come. and for you posters interested in real information, 137 will actually provide substantive posts. now if i can just get him on board with a prediction of our upcoming win over Colgate.

[Pard4Life]

definitely a sign of things to come. and for you posters interested in real information, 137 will actually provide substantive posts. now if i can just get him on board with a prediction of our upcoming win over Colgate.

xlolx If the Bison do manage to beat Colgate I think you will forever hex 13.

Glad to have 137 aboard.