NCAA rejects W&M "feather" appeal.

[Tribe4SF]

The initial response from W&M describes the decision as "absurd", and states the College will contemplate what's in the best interest of it's student-athletes.

[youwouldno]

That's easy. Open call for alumni lawyers to donate some time to draw up a lawsuit. Maybe find a few that are retired to head the day-to-day operations. I guarantee you there would be a tremendous response.

[DFW HOYA]

Tribe=not offensive.
Feather=offensive.

Nonsense all around. The NCAA should be ashamed of itself--let W&M be W&M.

[WUTNDITWAA]

The initial response from W&M describes the decision as "absurd", and states the College will contemplate what's in the best interest of it's student-athletes.

I'm pulling for W&M now more than I was last year when it was playing UNC-CH last year. Show the NCAA who's boss.

[rokamortis]

NCAA is nuts.

[Mr. C]

Tribe=not offensive.
Feather=offensive.

Nonsense all around.
Pray tell, what is offensive about W&M's feather? The NCAA should butt out here. The only nonsense is from the NCAA here.

[rcny46]

The initial response from W&M describes the decision as "absurd", and states the College will contemplate what's in the best interest of it's student-athletes.

ABSURD really is the only way to describe the NCAA's position on this.

[Tod]

Pray tell, what is offensive about W&M's feather? The NCAA should butt out here. The only nonsense is from the NCAA here.

Mr. C, I think what DFW is saying is that the NCAA already said that "Tribe" is fine, but now they're saying that the feather is a problem, and that's just nuts.

DFW, correct me if I'm wrong.

[bjtheflamesfan]

I think some boys from the NCAA were smokin the reefer when they even started this inquiry in the first place

[Tribe4SF]

Word is that the NCAA must now turn its attention to Duke University, where a new poll found that the Duke logo is offensive to 6 out of 10 strippers.:eek:

(credit to DukesRepeat at the JMU board)

[DFW HOYA]

Mr. C, I think what DFW is saying is that the NCAA already said that "Tribe" is fine, but now they're saying that the feather is a problem, and that's just nuts.

DFW, correct me if I'm wrong.

You're 100% correct. The NCAA should not be in the business of legislating nicknames and logos.

[*****]

You're 100% correct. The NCAA should not be in the business of legislating nicknames and logos.But the NCAA is run by its member schools.

[Tribe4SF]

But the NCAA is run by its member schools.

We haven't seen the text of the Exec Committee's decision, but it should give some insight to who's running things on this issue. Part of the appeal rationale for W&M was that the staff committee had far exceeded the intent of the policy passed by the board. When staff crafts policy over time, boards, at times, fail to maintain clarity of staff roles. The zealous pursuit of this issue, coupled with recent (and expensive) on-site reviews of prep schools such as Oak Hill Academy and Fork Union, leaves me with the impression that the NCAA is organizationally unsound.

It will be interesting to see if the Exec Comm's decision provides additional clarification of the Board's view of the scope, and intent, of the original policy. You are correct that any meaningful change must come from the membership. If W&M forgoes legal action, it will be because they have determined that courts are unlikely to inject themselves in the issue.

[*****]

... When staff crafts policy over time, boards, at times, fail to maintain clarity of staff roles...:nod:

[pcola]

Tribe4SF, you may have already read or heard that North Dakota is proceeding with legal action against the NCAA over the nickname/logo issue. A Litigation fund has been established to pay for the action. Following is a link to President Kupchella's letter to the NCAA.
http://www.universityrelations.und.edu/logoappeal/openletter_6-07-06.html

Since North Dakota is primarily known for hockey, a couple of articles have been written on the subject on www.USCHO.com

http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12630/InterviewUNDPresidentContinuesSearchForANicknameSo lution.html

http://www.uscho.com/news/id,12631/CharlesKupchellaUNDsSurprisingNicknameWarrior.html

There is an entire section of the forum at www.siouxsports.com dedicated to the Sioux name issue.

Good luck against the NCAA.

[GannonFan]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I absolutely think the NCAA is wasting its time with some of its more obscure challenges to Indian imagery and the such. But I also throw W&M into the mix as well as they've had to have known for the better part of a year that their logo, along with the name Tribe, and the references throughout the school to Indian names (they even call the campus the reservation among other names) were not going to pass the NCAA's muster, as silly as that muster is. The NCAA was very clear, by its rulings, that no Indian imagery would be allowed unless it made specific reference to a specific Indian tribe (they're not all the same) and they had explicit approval from that tribe for its use. Cry all you want about Florida St and the Seminoles, but Florida St has done a lot over the decades to make that relationship tight between them and the Seminole Nations. You may not like what they do with it, but it's tied to Seminole traditions and they say it's okay. W&M keeps fighting a silly battle against a silly policy when any reasonable person could've said they would lose the fight. The only thing they cannot keep is the logo with the two feathers in it - they can keep the name Tribe and everything else they do. While again it's a silly policy the NCAA is following here, it's also just as silly to be as up in arms over a logo that's not even always been a traditional logo at W&M anyway.

If you're going to fight the NCAA over something (and there are plenty of things worth fighting over as the NCAA has fumbled a lot of issues) fight over something of actual substance. Worrying about whether you can keep two feathers in a recent logo, and planning to employ a massive legal team to assist along with fundraising, just serves to amplify the inanity on both sides of the issue.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You miss something here Gannon - the admins over at the NCAA are hypocritically "bullying" smaller schools mostly because they then can be seen as "actively trying to fix a "problem" " while being unwilling to tackle the true perpetrators (like Florida State). (I'm saying "problem" in quotes, since it doesn't really seem to be a problem, especially in W&M's case.)

It serves W&M no purpose to be pushed around, only to show that smaller CAA/I-AA/private schools can be pushed around and big, powerful ACC/I-A schools cannot. I think it's great that smaller schools are fighing back against this outlandish policy and showing that they're no pushovers.

[DTSpider]

It's time for Williamsburg to be the site of another act of defiance. Put two huge feathers on the field at Zable.

I can't believe this is what the NCAA is spending time on. There are so many other problems in college sports that they could be working on.

[dbackjon]

You miss something here Gannon - the admins over at the NCAA are hypocritically "bullying" smaller schools mostly because they then can be seen as "actively trying to fix a "problem" " while being unwilling to tackle the true perpetrators (like Florida State). (I'm saying "problem" in quotes, since it doesn't really seem to be a problem, especially in W&M's case.)

It serves W&M no purpose to be pushed around, only to show that smaller CAA/I-AA/private schools can be pushed around and big, powerful ACC/I-A schools cannot. I think it's great that smaller schools are fighing back against this outlandish policy and showing that they're no pushovers.
:hurray: :bow:

Note that the Seminoles got the ok, and they happen to be a football power, even though many non-Seminole Indians find the "Tomahawk Chop" offensive.

W & M is in the same boat as Illinois - the NCAA couldn't find "Illini" offensive, since it is a derivation of the state name, but found some of the symbols offensive. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[GannonFan]

You miss something here Gannon - the admins over at the NCAA are hypocritically "bullying" smaller schools mostly because they then can be seen as "actively trying to fix a "problem" " while being unwilling to tackle the true perpetrators (like Florida State). (I'm saying "problem" in quotes, since it doesn't really seem to be a problem, especially in W&M's case.)

It serves W&M no purpose to be pushed around, only to show that smaller CAA/I-AA/private schools can be pushed around and big, powerful ACC/I-A schools cannot. I think it's great that smaller schools are fighing back against this outlandish policy and showing that they're no pushovers.

Not at all, I certainly recognize the point and I certainly agree that the NCAA never seems to rock the IA world while it does go after smaller fish. But the Florida St thing isn't just an isolated example - Central Michigan (hardly a heavy breather in the NCAA world) got approval to keep using their nickname (Chippewa) by the same logic (the Chippewas approve of the use). I think tiny Mississippi College (the Choctaws) are keeping their name for the same reason. If the NCAA was just picking on the little guy, they wouldn't have. And the grounds for the decisions are very clear cut - no generic Indian references, and you can only have specific Indian references if that specific tribe approves of it. Even mighty Illinois of the Big Ten had to make changes based on this and you would think if it was a case of only going after the little guy that it wouldn't have affected Illinois (they only got to keep the name Fighting Illini because the NCAA doesn't have the power to change the name of the state - at least not yet).

Like I said, cry about Florida St all you want, but it's not your imagery - it's the Seminole Nation's imagery and they have been pretty vocal and involved for the past 30 years that they approve of the use of their own imagery. And in this case, it's just not going after the little guy only, as there were big names on the list and some big names had to make changes as well. I think the policy is silly, but I also think W&M is silly to continue fighting what is an innocous issue at best, especially considering they can keep the name Tribe. I also think W&M does themselves a disservice by appearing to be linked in a cause with North Dakota, whose Figting Sioux nickname is considerably disliked by the Sioux and whose name has resulted in hostile and racial epitets (spelling). Fight the fights that are worth fighting - like the NCAA's ridiculous attempt with the APR ratings and how no IA football schools showed up on that list (if there's a bigger joke of how ineffective the NCAA is I want to know) - fighting over two feathers with little history or importance is not a worthy fight.

[GannonFan]

:hurray: :bow:

Note that the Seminoles got the ok, and they happen to be a football power, even though many non-Seminole Indians find the "Tomahawk Chop" offensive.

W & M is in the same boat as Illinois - the NCAA couldn't find "Illini" offensive, since it is a derivation of the state name, but found some of the symbols offensive. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

See, that's another association that W&M should not want to have. In all fairness, the feathers aren't hostile and the NCAA is silly to be so literal about their policy of no generic Indian imagery. But Illinois was entirely different with its Chief Illiniwek mascot, which was stereotypical and not affiliated with a specific Indian tribe. His dances were part of the steroype as well. That's something that was worthy of being banned. W&M doesn't put themselves in good company when they saddle up with Chief Illiniwek or North Dakota - they aren't in the same category and they should distance themselves from those associations.

[Mr. C]

But the NCAA is run by its member schools.
Yes, this is true. But it's kind of like letting the 400-pound Gorilla out of the cage. The Gorilla pretty much does what he wants to do. And that is the same with the NCAA. Those boys pretty much do what they want to do, guiding the advisory council around by the ring in its nose.

[tribe_pride]

Gannonfan - How far should we let the NCAA push us around before we fight back though. First, it was the name "Tribe" which they eventually ruled as ok after looking at our analysis. Now, it's the feather. Who knows what is next?

You say this issue is silly for all sides to be fighting over. How do you know that W&M does not consider this is an important issue. We have associated ourselves with Native Americans since the first charter for the school in 1693. Yes we were able to keep the Tribe name (probably because it can be looked as other than Native Americans) but the feathers are symbols displaying our pride in dealing with Native Americans throughout our history.

So while you say that the two feathers do not have history or importance, they represent that and a lot more.

[Mr. C]

Gannonfan - How far should we let the NCAA push us around before we fight back though. First, it was the name "Tribe" which they eventually ruled as ok after looking at our analysis. Now, it's the feather. Who knows what is next?

You say this issue is silly for all sides to be fighting over. How do you know that W&M does not consider this is an important issue. We have associated ourselves with Native Americans since the first charter for the school in 1693. Yes we were able to keep the Tribe name (probably because it can be looked as other than Native Americans) but the feathers are symbols displaying our pride in dealing with Native Americans throughout our history.

So while you say that the two feathers do not have history or importance, they represent that and a lot more.

Very well spoken response from someone from William & Mary on the subject.
:thumbsup:

[henfan]

We have associated ourselves with Native Americans since the first charter for the school in 1693. Yes we were able to keep the Tribe name (probably because it can be looked as other than Native Americans) but the feathers are symbols displaying our pride in dealing with Native Americans throughout our history.

Which begs the question, why, since W&M has good relationships with the local Chickahominy, Eastern Chickahominy, and Mattaponi tribes, wouldn't instead adopt imagery common or specific to those tribes? Lose the generic feathers. Seems like an easy solution- honoring local native history, maintaining consistency with the college's nickname and appeasing the NCAA. :thumbsup:

[Tribe4SF]

What truly reeks about the NCAA decision is that it was based on a projection of potential future behavior by W&M fans, players, students, opponents and others. This conclusion that people "will" engage in future behaviors that "will" be hostile and abusive, lacks any basis. The feathers may have to go, but it's the process and logic that must be fought.

When PETA gets involved (don't think they're not watching), we'll see Gannonfan sing a new tune. The rationale will be that Udee encourages acts by opponents and others which condone and promote violence against animals (wringing a chickens neck). :nonono2:

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What truly reeks about the NCAA decision is that it was based on a projection of potential future behavior by W&M fans, players, students, opponents and others. This conclusion that people "will" engage in future behaviors that "will" be hostile and abusive, lacks any basis. The feathers may have to go, but it's the process and logic that must be fought.

When PETA gets involved (don't think they're not watching), we'll see Gannonfan sing a new tune. The rationale will be that Udee encourages acts by opponents and others which condone and promote violence against animals (wringing a chickens neck). :nonono2:

I always eat chicken before UD games.. xlolx

[Tribe4SF]

Which begs the question, why, since W&M has good relationships with the local Chickahominy, Eastern Chickahominy, and Mattaponi tribes, wouldn't instead adopt imagery common or specific to those tribes? Lose the generic feathers. Seems like an easy solution- honoring local native history, maintaining consistency with the college's nickname and appeasing the NCAA. :thumbsup:

We'd have to change our nickname to one of the Tribes.

[DTSpider]

The College of William & Mary Eastern Virginia Wetland Tribes....

Try fitting that on a jersey.

[mainejeff]

I said it before and I'll say it again, I absolutely think the NCAA is wasting its time with some of its more obscure challenges to Indian imagery and the such. But I also throw W&M into the mix as well as they've had to have known for the better part of a year that their logo, along with the name Tribe, and the references throughout the school to Indian names (they even call the campus the reservation among other names) were not going to pass the NCAA's muster, as silly as that muster is. The NCAA was very clear, by its rulings, that no Indian imagery would be allowed unless it made specific reference to a specific Indian tribe (they're not all the same) and they had explicit approval from that tribe for its use. Cry all you want about Florida St and the Seminoles, but Florida St has done a lot over the decades to make that relationship tight between them and the Seminole Nations. You may not like what they do with it, but it's tied to Seminole traditions and they say it's okay. W&M keeps fighting a silly battle against a silly policy when any reasonable person could've said they would lose the fight. The only thing they cannot keep is the logo with the two feathers in it - they can keep the name Tribe and everything else they do. While again it's a silly policy the NCAA is following here, it's also just as silly to be as up in arms over a logo that's not even always been a traditional logo at W&M anyway.

If you're going to fight the NCAA over something (and there are plenty of things worth fighting over as the NCAA has fumbled a lot of issues) fight over something of actual substance. Worrying about whether you can keep two feathers in a recent logo, and planning to employ a massive legal team to assist along with fundraising, just serves to amplify the inanity on both sides of the issue.
:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

[GannonFan]

Gannonfan - How far should we let the NCAA push us around before we fight back though. First, it was the name "Tribe" which they eventually ruled as ok after looking at our analysis. Now, it's the feather. Who knows what is next?

You say this issue is silly for all sides to be fighting over. How do you know that W&M does not consider this is an important issue. We have associated ourselves with Native Americans since the first charter for the school in 1693. Yes we were able to keep the Tribe name (probably because it can be looked as other than Native Americans) but the feathers are symbols displaying our pride in dealing with Native Americans throughout our history.

So while you say that the two feathers do not have history or importance, they represent that and a lot more.

Who knows what's next? Now you're using the NRA defense of give them and inch and they'll take a mile (no, you can't ban the fully automatic, nuclear powered Howitzer anti-tank bazooka, because once you ban that you know they're (the "man") going after handguns!)? You got the "Tribe" name, they didn't say anything about you guys referring to campus or the field of play as "the reservation" - you're good. The only thing they say to get rid of is the feather imagery. Is that really important to W&M? How long has this logo even been in use (seriously, because I don't recall seeing it too much until recently)? I'm sure it doesn't go back anywhere near as far as the history of the college (I somehow think the feather logo wasn't part of the 1693 charter) so you got along just fine without it in the not too distant past. And how does not having the feathers take anything away from that proud history you so proudly boast? It's still there even if it's not on the athletic fields.


When PETA gets involved (don't think they're not watching), we'll see Gannonfan sing a new tune. The rationale will be that Udee encourages acts by opponents and others which condone and promote violence against animals (wringing a chickens neck).

And if YouDee goes the way of the dodo I'm sure Delaware football will still be around. We won't ever lose the name "Fightin' Blue Hens" because it was a nickname of a Revolutionary War battalion, so whether we have a dancing chicken on the sidelines or not isn't going to diminish the university one bit. Of course, that fight will be a lot bigger due to the vast preponderance of animal nicknames in college sports, and also because, well, they're animals and not humans - taking the imagery of a person's culture is an entirely different from using an animal mascot. But like I said, if YouDee has to go, but we get to be the Fightin' Blue Hens, I'm sure I won't be advocating the use of millions of dollars and teams of lawyers just to keep YouDee alive.

But hey, being the homer I am, keep on fighting the fight - this way, if Delaware has to play William and Mary in the playoffs, I know the game will be in Newark since you guys are sticking with the feathers and will be ineligible to host a playoff game. Go get em! ;)

[henfan]

We'd have to change our nickname to one of the Tribes.

Why? The Tribe name and feather logo are separate issues, aren't they? Why could W&M not maintain the Tribe nickname and, with their blessing and that of the NCAA, a logo based on a symbol from one of the local tribes?

[GannonFan]

Why? The Tribe name and feather logo are separate issues, aren't they? Why could W&M not maintain the Tribe nickname and, with their blessing and that of the NCAA, a logo based on a symbol from one of the local tribes?

I thought that would work too - heck, you could even have a whole write-up in the programs about the history of the specific feathers as they relate to that particular tribe. The NCAA has been pretty accomodating to any specific tribe tie-in - maybe a little more muscle in that area rather than shouting at the walls about no feathers could get it done.

[henfan]

What I truly don't understand and what I feel the NCAA should clearly explain is how two feathers could possibly be construed as either 'hostile' or 'abusive'. That argument is much more applicable to a bow or an axe, as they have war-like connotations. Feathers and loincloths, OTOH...:confused:

[Husky Alum]

What's troubling me is that GannonFan and mainejeff actually AGREE on something.

That should be reason enough for all of us to realize that the NCAA is making a mountain out of two freaking feathers.

:bang: :bang: :bang: xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

[GannonFan]

What's troubling me is that GannonFan and mainejeff actually AGREE on something.



I too sense a disturbance in the Force.

[CoastalFan2005]

...taking the imagery of a person's culture is an entirely different from using an animal mascot.

I concur, in a way. I'm sure we all know this about PETA-type people already, but I've met quite a few animal rights activists that would come up with an extremely convincing way to argue the above quote.

Not that I'm against animal activism, I just think that if a group such as PETA really set its collective mind to the task which we're alluding to, said task could very well be carried out to its fullest potential.

[pcola]

How far out of the realm is it for the NCAA to take additional steps against teams such as the Blue Devils, Demon Deacons, Crusaders, Fighting Scots, Rebels, Ragin Cajuns, Sooners, Gamecocks, Blue Demons, Vandals ...

If you let them in the door a little, you open it wide open for them to dictate other aspects of what they deem appropriate. Use your imiginations where they could go next.

[Tribe4SF]

And if YouDee goes the way of the dodo I'm sure Delaware football will still be around. We won't ever lose the name "Fightin' Blue Hens" because it was a nickname of a Revolutionary War battalion, so whether we have a dancing chicken on the sidelines or not isn't going to diminish the university one bit. Of course, that fight will be a lot bigger due to the vast preponderance of animal nicknames in college sports, and also because, well, they're animals and not humans - taking the imagery of a person's culture is an entirely different from using an animal mascot. But like I said, if YouDee has to go, but we get to be the Fightin' Blue Hens, I'm sure I won't be advocating the use of millions of dollars and teams of lawyers just to keep YouDee alive.


Good grief, GF! I was kidding.:bang:

[walliver]

How about changing your logo to this ...

[Mr. C]

Political Correctness is Anti-First Amendment and should be fought at all costs. This isn't an insignificant thing we're talking about. Once the PC snowball gets rolling, it's hard to stop.

[youwouldno]

It's simple really. The NCAA has no right to push W&M around. Period. It doesn't matter how seemingly minor it is-- and this really isn't minor at all, it's the athletic symbol. W&M should fight them tooth and nail every inch of the way. The NCAA has more to lose, because they are in the wrong.

[GannonFan]

Good grief, GF! I was kidding.:bang:

Tough to tell - some of your W&M brethren are extremely up in arms over this - hard to detect sarcasm in that environment.

[Tribe4SF]

Tough to tell - some of your W&M brethren are extremely up in arms over this - hard to detect sarcasm in that environment.

Oh, I'm up in arms over it too....I was kidding about Udee. (Not that I would mind giving him a strangle!):smiley_wi