Top 25 Voting- Ignore Records

[smallcollegefbfan]

I thought I would post this because many have been voting teams simply because they are 6-0. I had not fallen for the Alabama A&M hype and they lost today to Alcorn State. I much rather make a team prove to me they deserve to be ranked such as teams outside of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky, SLC, MVC, OVC because the others leagues are down right now. Make sure when you vote you look at who teams have beaten such as while posting this Samford is ahead of App State but if they lose they played so well that I don't see how you can drop them from #25 in the polls if they lose to App State but just 3 or so with their showing today. I just ask AGS and TSN voters to ignore these records and make sure if someone is 7-0 or 6-1 to look at who they have played. I heavily doubt that anyone outside of Albany in the NEC, SWAC, or MEAC could have a shot at UNI despite there being several teams with a much better record. Look at SOS more than overall record when voting. It's just not fair to say a team who has 3 losses to FBS and top 10 FCS teams is not as good as a team who has yet to beat anyone that is legit top 40 in FCS.

[Hawk98]

7-0 is 7-0. The object of the sport is to win. No 2-4 team deserves to be ranked ahead of any 7-0 team in FCS.

[crusader11]

If Northern Iowa beats So. Ill., I'd be tempted to rank them ahead of Lehigh.

[UNIFanSince1983]

If Northern Iowa beats So. Ill., I'd be tempted to rank them ahead of Lehigh.

Not looking like that will happen anyways...

[Hawk98]

If Northern Iowa beats So. Ill., I'd be tempted to rank them ahead of Lehigh.


31-31 in the 4th ...

[mmiller_34]

34-31 SIU, 59 seconds left.

[UNIFanSince1983]

SIU 34 UNI 31 Final

We cannot win in Carbondale. It doesn't help when you hand a team at 21 points either...

[HailSzczur]

Nova demolishes ODU at home....keep that in mind folks.

[bonarae]

Ouch. When I woke up, all I saw is upset after upset for half of the top 25 completed thus far. This week is sure to affect voting a lot. xsmhx

[smallcollegefbfan]

If Northern Iowa beats So. Ill., I'd be tempted to rank them ahead of Lehigh.

I wasn't trying to make a post for UNI. After their loss today I will not rank them but they are better than Alabama A&M and anyone in the SWAC still.

[smallcollegefbfan]

7-0 is 7-0. The object of the sport is to win. No 2-4 team deserves to be ranked ahead of any 7-0 team in FCS.

So you think a 10-1 SWAC team this year is better than a 6-5 SoCon, CAA, MVC, Big Sky team who has losses to 1-2 FBS, and 3 top 15 FCS teams while the SWAC team has played nobody in the top 40 in FCS and played mostly teams that would be ranked 75-100? If you simply look at records you won't pick the best teams. This is about voting for the best teams and not a team who plays a bunch of bad teams. By your definition then these power schools need to stop playing FBS games and schedule the NEC, SWAC, and Patriot League right now and get the "easy" wins instead of actually getting better by playing Montana OOC or an FBS school. People want to see good games and it's completely pointless to play a team you know you will beat by 50 points just to get a win rather than playing a team that actually makes the cost of the ticket worth it and helps improve a team. Plus, if you go by your definition we won't know how good a team is until the playoffs and I much rather know how good a team is now. And by your definition Harvard won today and NDSU lost so Harvard is better than NDSU? NDSU is still a good team. IMO, ISU was a trap game for them today and they got trapped. You beat YSU like they did and I'm not shocked to see a bunch of 18-22 year old kids maybe overlook their next opponent, who happens to be pretty good.

I refused to reward Alabama A&M until they beat someone and I will never do that. When a team starts to beat everyone I look at who they play and that's the only legit way to vote. If not, then schedule a couple D2 games and win those because after all...a win is a win right? Even if it doesn't count towards the needed 7 D1 wins. :)

[smallcollegefbfan]

Nova demolishes ODU at home....keep that in mind folks.

Yeah I always had ODU in the 7-10 range in my vote so I won't have to drop them that far. Villanova is pretty good so I would say ODU should now be 12-15 and Villanova should be in the top 20 for sure. ODU will need to lose one more for me to say they should be outside of the top 15 and they may do it. Their schedule gets tougher and I predict ODU will lose 1-2 more games but the object is to rank them based on what we know and not project the rest of the season so I'll hold off on dropping them to the 15-19 range, where I think they will end up when the season is over. My main reason for that is ODU's defense. Outside of Wilkins and Burnette they don't have anyone that can make big plays for them so far and neither one of those two have been a 1st or 2nd team All-America caliber player either.

[Hawk98]

7-0 and 6-1 can easily be flipped on strength of schedule. 7-0 and 3-4 or something like that cannot.

The sport is about winning. It doesn't matter how good you are. NDSU finally played a tight game and they lost. That tells me something about how they might do in the postseason, which to be honest, is all that matters in FCS, not any of the polls.

[UNIFanSince1983]

7-0 and 6-1 can easily be flipped on strength of schedule. 7-0 and 3-4 or something like that cannot.

The sport is about winning. It doesn't matter how good you are. NDSU finally played a tight game and they lost. That tells me something about how they might do in the postseason, which to be honest, is all that matters in FCS, not any of the polls.

They haven't lost yet, and is looking more and more like they are going to pull this one out.

[smallcollegefbfan]

7-0 and 6-1 can easily be flipped on strength of schedule. 7-0 and 3-4 or something like that cannot.

The sport is about winning. It doesn't matter how good you are. NDSU finally played a tight game and they lost. That tells me something about how they might do in the postseason, which to be honest, is all that matters in FCS, not any of the polls.

And despite all the winning Lehigh does in the regular season they don't do well in the postseason because they don't get tested until the playoffs.

This was just one game as well. Everyone in the media said NDSU would lose at least 1-2 games coming in to the season. NDSU has been battle tested and if injuries have not taken a toll on them by playoff team they would beat Lehigh by 14, at least. I am not bashing Lehigh but you know good and well they would not be 7-0 if they had the schedule of NDSU, YSU, App State, Geo Sou, Illinois St, Eastern Washington, etc. at this point.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

And despite all the winning Lehigh does in the regular season they don't do well in the postseason because they don't get tested until the playoffs.

This was just one game as well. Everyone in the media said NDSU would lose at least 1-2 games coming in to the season. NDSU has been battle tested and if injuries have not taken a toll on them by playoff team they would beat Lehigh by 14, at least. I am not bashing Lehigh but you know good and well they would not be 7-0 if they had the schedule of NDSU, YSU, App State, Geo Sou, Illinois St, Eastern Washington, etc. at this point.

I think the problem Lehigh has faced in the playoffs is always going on the road and playing either the eventual champ or runner-up.
Since the PL has lifted the postseason ban they've played 12 playoff games, 10 of them have been on the road.

[frozennorth]

this week is going to be a pain with 1, 2, 3, and 8 going down and either #5 or #7 yet to lose and #4 winning a squeaker. Cal poly still has yet to kick off.

[smallcollegefbfan]

I think the problem Lehigh has faced in the playoffs is always going on the road and playing either the eventual champ or runner-up.
Since the PL has lifted the postseason ban they've played 12 playoff games, 10 of them have been on the road.

Lots of teams have made it to the semis or NC playing on the road so while you are right it makes it hard, Lehigh also has gotten that shock of playing a tough team. Look at the Patriot League in general, only Colgate has ever made it past the semis. I think with the Patriot League adding scholarships the league will do much better after a couple years of stockpiling scholarship players.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Lots of teams have made it to the semis or NC playing on the road so while you are right it makes it hard, Lehigh also has gotten that shock of playing a tough team. Look at the Patriot League in general, only Colgate has ever made it past the semis. I think with the Patriot League adding scholarships the league will do much better after a couple years of stockpiling scholarship players.

Lots of teams go on the road to make to the title game? I disagree. JMU is the only team in '04 that i remember winning all their games on the road to get there. One of which was a 1 point win over Lehigh.

Lehigh has been to the playoffs seven times since the PL lifted the ban. Three times, '98, '04 and '11 they lost to the eventual champ. '01 and '10 they lost to the runner-up. They very easily could be better than teams that advance further but got tougher draws.

[bjtheflamesfan]

The top half of my poll was turned completely on its head today with #1, #2, AND #3 all losing, #4 going to 2 overtimes, #5 and #6 playing each other, #7 in a scoreless game, #8 winning in a squeaker, #9 BEATING #2. #11 gutting out a victory, #12 losing their second in a row (could be a swoon developing) and #10 kicking off in an hour. Gonna see a ton of movement on this one

[smallcollegefbfan]

Lots of teams go on the road to make to the title game? I disagree. JMU is the only team in '04 that i remember winning all their games on the road to get there. One of which was a 1 point over Lehigh.

Lehigh has been to the playoffs seven times since the PL lifted the ban. Three times, '98, '04 and '11 they lost to the eventual champ. '01 and '10 they lost to the runner-up. They very easily could be better than teams that advance further but got tougher draws.

I said SEMIS OR title game. There have been several examples of teams making it to the semis by playing 1-2 road games. Winning the NC on the road the entire time is virtually impossible but again you get home games based on your record, who you beat, strength of schedule, etc. and Lehigh hasn't had the SOS or quality wins to earn a home game very often yet. Not picking on Lehigh but just stating a fact.

Home games indeed help but again Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round at all and you would think if those 10-1 or 11-0 seasons were really battle tested that they would have done much better.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

I said SEMIS OR title game. There have been several examples of teams making it to the semis by playing 1-2 road games. Winning the NC on the road the entire time is virtually impossible but again you get home games based on your record, who you beat, strength of schedule, etc. and Lehigh hasn't had the SOS or quality wins to earn a home game very often yet. Not picking on Lehigh but just stating a fact.

Home games indeed help but again Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round at all and you would think if those 10-1 or 11-0 seasons were really battle tested that they would have done much better.

Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round? They're 5-2. Only losses in the first round were a 1 pt heart breaker to JMU in '04 and 27-15 loss to Hofstra in '99.

[UNIFanSince1983]

I said SEMIS OR title game. There have been several examples of teams making it to the semis by playing 1-2 road games. Winning the NC on the road the entire time is virtually impossible but again you get home games based on your record, who you beat, strength of schedule, etc. and Lehigh hasn't had the SOS or quality wins to earn a home game very often yet. Not picking on Lehigh but just stating a fact.

Home games indeed help but again Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round at all and you would think if those 10-1 or 11-0 seasons were really battle tested that they would have done much better.

In 2005 we went to the #1 and the #4 seeds and won to make it to the NC. We were a dome team that no one said could win on the road. We went to #1 UNH and won in the snow. The following week we went to #4 Texas State and won in the heat.

[LUHawker]

Lots of teams have made it to the semis or NC playing on the road so while you are right it makes it hard, Lehigh also has gotten that shock of playing a tough team. Look at the Patriot League in general, only Colgate has ever made it past the semis. I think with the Patriot League adding scholarships the league will do much better after a couple years of stockpiling scholarship players.

What? "Shock of playing a tough team?". Lehigh and all the PL champs almost always get paired up with the CAA champ, which is a tough out for ANY team. LU has dispensed with UNI, on the road, and the CAA champ, Towson, on the road the last two years. So stop embarassing yourself with talk of "shock". As TU Owl has noted, it is very difficult to run the gauntlet ln the road. This year's LU schedule appears less impressive than last year's but I doubt Lehigh has looked like deer in headlights.

[344Johnson]

7-0 and 6-1 can easily be flipped on strength of schedule. 7-0 and 3-4 or something like that cannot.

The sport is about winning. It doesn't matter how good you are. NDSU finally played a tight game and they lost. That tells me something about how they might do in the postseason, which to be honest, is all that matters in FCS, not any of the polls.

NDSU lost a tight game to Youngstown last year as well.

Tough to win every game. I am excited to see the chaos that is the AGS poll this upcoming week.

[DSUrocks07]

1: no one in the SWAC (or the Ivies) "deserves" to be ranked at any point of the season unless they have a good victory on their schedule. They can't fall back on their "track record" because they have none.

2: There is ZERO justification for UNI or Montana to be ranked at this point of the season.

[UNIFanSince1983]

1: no one in the SWAC (or the Ivies) "deserves" to be ranked at any point of the season unless they have a good victory on their schedule. They can't fall back on their "track record" because they have none.

2: There is ZERO justification for UNI or Montana to be ranked at this point of the season.

I do not think you will get any arguments from anyone on that!

[ngineer]

I thought I would post this because many have been voting teams simply because they are 6-0. I had not fallen for the Alabama A&M hype and they lost today to Alcorn State. I much rather make a team prove to me they deserve to be ranked such as teams outside of the CAA, SoCon, Big Sky, SLC, MVC, OVC because the others leagues are down right now. Make sure when you vote you look at who teams have beaten such as while posting this Samford is ahead of App State but if they lose they played so well that I don't see how you can drop them from #25 in the polls if they lose to App State but just 3 or so with their showing today. I just ask AGS and TSN voters to ignore these records and make sure if someone is 7-0 or 6-1 to look at who they have played. I heavily doubt that anyone outside of Albany in the NEC, SWAC, or MEAC could have a shot at UNI despite there being several teams with a much better record. Look at SOS more than overall record when voting. It's just not fair to say a team who has 3 losses to FBS and top 10 FCS teams is not as good as a team who has yet to beat anyone that is legit top 40 in FCS.

Same drivel we've heard for in 2010 and 2011..and ask Northern Iowa and Towson the number of the truck that hit them in the post season.

[ngineer]

I said SEMIS OR title game. There have been several examples of teams making it to the semis by playing 1-2 road games. Winning the NC on the road the entire time is virtually impossible but again you get home games based on your record, who you beat, strength of schedule, etc. and Lehigh hasn't had the SOS or quality wins to earn a home game very often yet. Not picking on Lehigh but just stating a fact.

Home games indeed help but again Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round at all and you would think if those 10-1 or 11-0 seasons were really battle tested that they would have done much better.

Get your facts straight before shooting from the hip. In addition to what was posted above, Lehigh was the I-AA Finalist in 1979. Home games against Hofstra and James Madison (losing 14-13 on a very controversial goal line stand call that saved JMU's run to the National Championship). Most of the homefield choice stems from being able to guarantee $$$ to the NCAA. Being a small school it difficult to guarantee a gate on Thanksgiving Weekend when the major competition is most very large state universities in the east. The only real difference, right now, between Lehigh and the other 'top' schools is depth of quality, which scholarships help create. Hopefully in 3-4 years that issue will be addressed. But until then, the top PL schools have acquitted themselves very well in the post season over the past 10 years.

[RichH2]

Really surprised at small cfbf 's post. Thought you knew FCS better. As prior posters showed your assumptions based on incorrect facts. Thought our beating UNI and TU last 2 yrs would take some steam out of the old impressions of PL. Guess bias dies hard.

[blueballs]

If you're good enough to win it doesn't matter who, when, or where you play. GSU proved it in 1985 and 1990. UMASS won all four on the road in 1998. JMU had a great road run in 2004.

Out of GSU's six titles they won road semi final games in four of them, so there's the proof. It doesn't matter where you're from or where you play, if you're good enough to get it done you will.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

If you're good enough to win it doesn't matter who, when, or where you play. GSU proved it in 1985 and 1990. UMASS won all four on the road in 1998. JMU had a great road run in 2004.

Out of GSU's six titles they won road semi final games in four of them, so there's the proof. It doesn't matter where you're from or where you play, if you're good enough to get it done you will.

Umass did not win all four on the road in 1998. They beat Lehigh 27-21 at home in the quarters. I was there.

[OhioHen]

Be careful with your thread title. "Ignore Records" invites people to include teams with losing records in October in their Top 25. xnonono2x

Your SOS argument gives credit for PLAYING good teams. It doesn't take into consideration SUCCESS against those teams.

QOV (Quality of Victories) is much more telling than SOS.

[Engineer86]

Nova demolishes ODU at home....keep that in mind folks.

This says a lot to me. Nova is a team that from week one till now has changed. Great win.

[Engineer86]

Lots of teams have made it to the semis or NC playing on the road so while you are right it makes it hard, Lehigh also has gotten that shock of playing a tough team. Look at the Patriot League in general, only Colgate has ever made it past the semis. I think with the Patriot League adding scholarships the league will do much better after a couple years of stockpiling scholarship players.

Two years ago lehigh goes on the road and beats UNI, last year Lehigh goes on the road and beats CAA champ, Towson. Yet you say they have done nothing. There are many teams that you can say that about, if making it to the semi- finals is your benchmark.

[Engineer86]

I said SEMIS OR title game. There have been several examples of teams making it to the semis by playing 1-2 road games. Winning the NC on the road the entire time is virtually impossible but again you get home games based on your record, who you beat, strength of schedule, etc. and Lehigh hasn't had the SOS or quality wins to earn a home game very often yet. Not picking on Lehigh but just stating a fact.

Home games indeed help but again Lehigh hasn't done well in the first round at all and you would think if those 10-1 or 11-0 seasons were really battle tested that they would have done much better.

Western Illinois, Richmond, UNI, Towson all would disagree with you. The one point loss to JMU included the 7 play goal line stand, it was a great game. Yet you say Lehigh has not performed well in the first round.

I am not arguing the schedule this year has been a tough road, or that Lehigh deserves a seed in any way despite being 7-0' but get your facts straight.

[UNH Fanboi]

Western Illinois, Richmond, UNI, Towson all would disagree with you. The one point loss to JMU included the 7 play goal line stand, it was a great game. Yet you say Lehigh has not performed well in the first round.

I am not arguing the schedule this year has been a tough road, or that Lehigh deserves a seed in any way despite being 7-0' but get your facts straight.

Edit: nvm

[smallcollegefbfan]

Be careful with your thread title. "Ignore Records" invites people to include teams with losing records in October in their Top 25. xnonono2x

Your SOS argument gives credit for PLAYING good teams. It doesn't take into consideration SUCCESS against those teams.

QOV (Quality of Victories) is much more telling than SOS.

Good point. I'm not saying just because you play a tough schedule you should be ranked high. However, if you are 7-4 with 2 wins over FCS top 25 and your 2 losses are FCS top 10 teams and 2 FBS teams you should be ranked ahead of a team that is 10-1 or 11-0 with no wins over someone in the top 35-40 of FCS.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Western Illinois, Richmond, UNI, Towson all would disagree with you. The one point loss to JMU included the 7 play goal line stand, it was a great game. Yet you say Lehigh has not performed well in the first round.

I am not arguing the schedule this year has been a tough road, or that Lehigh deserves a seed in any way despite being 7-0' but get your facts straight.

In the playoffs it does not matter how bad you lose but that you lose. Some leagues have not gotten wins in the playoffs in a long time and it just means those leagues are down right now. Lehigh hasn't been getting blown out but they certainly haven't been going to the semis either.

Like I said before, the Patriot League is adding scholarships and will improve their talent for sure so I don't think the PL will be a weaker conference much longer. I expect them to at least get a first or second round win and maybe advance to the semis every few years once the scholarships begin to kick in.

[Engineer86]

In the playoffs it does not matter how bad you lose but that you lose. Some leagues have not gotten wins in the playoffs in a long time and it just means those leagues are down right now. Lehigh hasn't been getting blown out but they certainly haven't been going to the semis either.

Like I said before, the Patriot League is adding scholarships and will improve their talent for sure so I don't think the PL will be a weaker conference much longer. I expect them to at least get a first or second round win and maybe advance to the semis every few years once the scholarships begin to kick in.

Glad that you expect it since Lehigh is already 5-2 in the first playoff game they have played in over the last 14 years. Threat for a NC, no. A team that most teams should not be looking to play in an opening game, absolutely. I recognize that is true for most teams (I don't want to play NDSU in the first round), but Lehigh should be on that list too.

[smallcollegefbfan]

When checking scores I saw this article by Haley talking about how easy schedules have been.

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/news/news.aspx?id=4535859

Teams who aren't tested don't do as well and most of the undefeated teams have had an easy schedule until this weekend, showing that it's better to have a loss and face a daunting schedule than be 7-0 and not being tested. I'll never rank an unproven undefeated team over a team with a very tough schedule who has 2 losses just because of their record.

[smallcollegefbfan]

Glad that you expect it since Lehigh is already 5-2 in the first playoff game they have played in over the last 14 years. Threat for a NC, no. A team that most teams should not be looking to play in an opening game, absolutely. I recognize that is true for most teams (I don't want to play NDSU in the first round), but Lehigh should be on that list too.

Yes Lehigh has been solid in the first round just not had the talent and depth to make it far. I still count the round of 16 as the first round. I consider the first weekend of the playoffs more like a play-in than anything because I still think the playoffs should be 16. In FBS, I hope they go to 12 or 16 and stop there. It waters down the playoffs having 24 or 32 teams in the field and to be honest 20 is a little much as well. I especially say that with so many teams moving up and likely to move up over the last two years and likely in the next year or so.

[Hawk98]

Yes Lehigh has been solid in the first round just not had the talent and depth to make it far. I still count the round of 16 as the first round. I consider the first weekend of the playoffs more like a play-in than anything because I still think the playoffs should be 16. In FBS, I hope they go to 12 or 16 and stop there. It waters down the playoffs having 24 or 32 teams in the field and to be honest 20 is a little much as well. I especially say that with so many teams moving up and likely to move up over the last two years and likely in the next year or so.

As long as the NCAA runs the playoffs, there will be 24+ teams going forward. The rule is simple. Conference get autobids for meeting eligibility standards, and # of at large has to be at least the # of autobids. If the SWAC/Ivy ever decide to join the show, we'll have 28 or 32 teams.

As far as the second round being the first round ... well then, I consider the CAA and MVFC to not be FCS, so Lehigh was undefeated in FCS last year. Or maybe we don't all get to make up our own definitions of English words.

[smallcollegefbfan]

As long as the NCAA runs the playoffs, there will be 24+ teams going forward. The rule is simple. Conference get autobids for meeting eligibility standards, and # of at large has to be at least the # of autobids. If the SWAC/Ivy ever decide to join the show, we'll have 28 or 32 teams.

And that is one of a couple things I don't like about FCS right now. Just like in FBS I hope they don't give an auto bid to C-USA or Sun Belt unless they prove it. My opinion is that you take the 16 best teams and force teams from those lower leagues to schedule at least mid-level teams from power conferences so we see if a team who would normally go 11-0 or 10-1 in the Pioneer League, SWAC, etc. could hold hang in the playoffs or would it be a blowout every time. The NEC is doing a good job of playing CAA teams and I applaud them for that. As we saw yesterday Duquesne is not as good as they maybe thought but Albany keeps rolling and have beaten a solid Maine team so I will at least say they could be a good opponent and may win what we now call the first round.

When you bring up 24 or 32 just look at D3 and D2. There are a lot of blowouts and teams who are just not good in there. When I think playoffs I think matchups of #1 vs. #4 or #8 vs #13, etc. but I don't want to see #2 vs. #35 or how about #23 vs #29. Does those last two matchups really tell us anything? If anything, those games with a team outside of the top 25 against a top 10 team are more of a trap game. The best team won't win if there is an upset. They will just take advantage of a team overlooking another team. When you have 18-23 year old kids playing each other they overlook certain teams and let headlines get to them a lot. If you are #2 and #8 comes to town you know you have a really good team but if you face #29 you are going to say "this should be a cake walk" and are very suspectible to an upset if you overlook them and don't prepare. And let's face it, that happens a good bit in the regular season.

[RichH2]

Gee, neat when you can redefine facts to support your biases. Very Mittlike.
NCAA sets rules, we just play the games and win.
I expect numerous coronaries out west if LU goes 10-1 and doesn't win PL and gets an at large.. This topic will not die. Same bias since the 90s. No matter how we do ,I guess it will continue.

[Hawk98]

NCAA regulations forbid it, and beyond that it is absurd. Should the NFL not invite the AFC West champs to the playoffs because the division is bad?

It's not a real championship unless every team starts the season with a chance at it (unless they decline like the Ivies and SWAC). Every conference should get a shot at sending their champion to the playoffs. It works fine in basketball. Why is it heralded as awesome when Lehigh beats Duke in March madness, but it would be terrible if Jacksonville beat NDSU in the first round?

[smallcollegefbfan]

Gee, neat when you can redefine facts to support your biases. Very Mittlike.
NCAA sets rules, we just play the games and win.
I expect numerous coronaries out west if LU goes 10-1 and doesn't win PL and gets an at large.. This topic will not die. Same bias since the 90s. No matter how we do ,I guess it will continue.

Don't bring up politics lol. They all lie. Mitt has told lies. Obama has certainly told lies as well. Every one of them has had to distort facts and lie. It's the nature of that game.

Anyhow, nobody is going to hate on a team or put them lower in rankings because of who they are. Look at ODU who was a jump start and how they have earned respect. It's all in who you play. If the Pioneer League teams played a tough schedule or got to the playoffs and made some noise then nobody would question them playing. I'm just like most and don't want to see an unproven team that beat up on St. Marys School of the Blind every week face the #2 team over the #11 team who has faced the #10 toughest schedule, beaten a couple ranked teams, and is 8-3 or 9-2.

I could have left my high school team and played middle school ball and dominated but that would not have made me better than the varsity QB just because I ran for 1,000 yards and passed for 2,500 against middle school players as a 18-year old as opposed to the varsity QB throwing for 1,000 and running for 500 against high school seniors. Who your success is against matters big time.

[DSUrocks07]

I know how everyone feels about the MEAC and whether they "deserve" a Top 25 ranking. But down the road, if TSU continues to do well in the OVC, Bethune-Cookman could be the (only) team to do so.

Only losses to FBS Miami and a now ranked Tennessee State.

[RichH2]

Smallcollege is channeling Mplsbison. 16 best teams merely code for only teams from power conferences. He is trolling you 98. That bias will never change. Ignore him.

[RichH2]

No doubt Tenn. St. Deserves ranking. Of course smallcollege will dispute that they should be in playoffs.

[Hawk98]

Don't bring up politics lol. They all lie. Mitt has told lies. Obama has certainly told lies as well. Every one of them has had to distort facts and lie. It's the nature of that game.

Anyhow, nobody is going to hate on a team or put them lower in rankings because of who they are. Look at ODU who was a jump start and how they have earned respect. It's all in who you play. If the Pioneer League teams played a tough schedule or got to the playoffs and made some noise then nobody would question them playing. I'm just like most and don't want to see an unproven team that beat up on St. Marys School of the Blind every week face the #2 team over the #11 team who has faced the #10 toughest schedule, beaten a couple ranked teams, and is 8-3 or 9-2.

I could have left my high school team and played middle school ball and dominated but that would not have made me better than the varsity QB just because I ran for 1,000 yards and passed for 2,500 against middle school players as a 18-year old as opposed to the varsity QB throwing for 1,000 and running for 500 against high school seniors. Who your success is against matters big time.

So you should want the bigger field. The 12/13 conference championship are going to be in. If you want to include all the 7-4/8-3 at large teams, then have 20 at large teams. To me, if you go 7-4 and 7-3 against FCS, then meh. Even if all 3 games are ranked losses, they still didn't show the ability to win those games.

Losing to the FBS teams should get you no credit at all. You got the cash, take the L and now you have to be even better in your other 10 games. Losing close to an FBS is mostly meaningless, and you are playing their 2nd and 3rd stringers in many cases.

[smallcollegefbfan]

NCAA regulations forbid it, and beyond that it is absurd. Should the NFL not invite the AFC West champs to the playoffs because the division is bad?

It's not a real championship unless every team starts the season with a chance at it (unless they decline like the Ivies and SWAC). Every conference should get a shot at sending their champion to the playoffs. It works fine in basketball. Why is it heralded as awesome when Lehigh beats Duke in March madness, but it would be terrible if Jacksonville beat NDSU in the first round?

NFL is a different animal. I laugh when people say a win is an easy win in the NFL. People don't understand that the NFL has the very best players in the world. The worst team in the NFL would be the best of the best from all other countries and colleges by 100 points or more.

I don't mind every league being represented but I'd rather see the NEC vs. Pioneer League in the opening round since both teams are likely to be closer in talent and then the winner face a top 15-20 team to see how good they are. I think people wanting to see #30 vs. #1 to start is a little unfair. Why play a tough schedule and be 10-1 if we aren't going to give them some sort of perk for having a great season. The playoffs matter but I want regular season success to be rewarded with seeding and road to the playoffs or else every team should play an easy schedule since it won't matter if you face a brutal regular season and go 9-2 as opposed to going 11-0 against St. Mary's School of the Blind every week. I just don't think a school should be rewarded if they don't at least try to play good teams.

It's like when scouting for the NFL and lately the SWAC hasn't had but one player have a legit NFL career in the last 5 years with most players lasting for a year or so on practice squads showing that dominating the SWAC doesn't mean much so NFL teams aren't giving those players draft grades like we once thought. Just look at Marquis Jackson. He had those numbers and even myself was high on him expecting 1st team All-America honors and now he is the 2nd best defender on PSU's team and he won't be the Big Sky DEF POY for sure. He went from being the top returning defender in his conference to now being the behind Tripp, Wagenmann, Sluss, Larsen, Molino, Morales, etc. because he is now facing tougher competition. Jackson went from #1 in sacks and TFLs to #6 in sacks and #15 in TFLs. He is definitely a good player but not as elite as some thought because now he is facing tougher competition and will likely be 2nd team All-Big Sky, instead of first-team All-America now.

That's all I'm saying. I just want teams to face a good measuring stick in the regular season and not be rewarded because they are 11-0 in a non scholarship conference unless they are facing top 40 teams in their OOC and performing well such as winning some of them. I do like your point on upsets but even in the NCAA tournament most of the time the team who gets the "upset" is considered a real good team. You rarely see a team that is considered #150 or below pull an upset like that. It's usually a team ranked in the top #60 of computer rankings, although there are examples of wins outside of that. In football, if #35 beats #1 in FCS where you have just 120 teams or so the gap should be much wider and usually is. In basketball the gap between #10 and #45 can be 8 points whereas in FCS the gap between #35 and #1 is more like 30 points or more. Shoot look at the gap between NDSU and YSU this year and YSU is a top 15 team. How bad do you think NDSU would beat the Pioneer League champ right now if they came in sky high like they did against YSU and give their best effort? Do you really want to see that game which should be a 40-50 point blowout?

[Hawk98]

I kind of agree that 32 is tough for the higher seeds. 24 isn't going to be bad though. Top 8 get byes, other 16 play in the first round to get to play the teams on bye in round 2. That's a big advantage for the bye teams. But of those 24, 11 are going to be automatic, so if you aren't happy with the top 13 non-champions getting it, you should be supporting a bigger field.

[tingly]

As long as the teams with a genuine shot at the championship get their invites, it doesn't matter who the rest go to. NCAA might as well spread the automatics around for the health of lower conferences and FCS. I don't see the field ever getting bigger than 24, cuz 20% making the playoffs is around NCAA's max.

[Hawk98]

As long as the teams with a genuine shot at the championship get their invites, it doesn't matter who the rest go to. NCAA might as well spread the automatics around for the health of lower conferences and FCS. I don't see the field ever getting bigger than 24, cuz 20% making the playoffs is around NCAA's max.
If SWAC and Ivy both take their autobids at some point, then there will 13 autobids so it will have to go to 26.

[tingly]

If they get autobids, 2 others would lose theirs as my theory goes.

[Hawk98]

If they get autobids, 2 others would lose theirs as my theory goes.

I don't think they measure the conferences against each other for autobids, just if they meet certain scheduling, size, and other requirements.

[tingly]

Great West never got an automatic cuz the membership changed too much and they had to have at least 6 eligible teams. When the field was 16, NCAA decided what conferences would go for guaranteed at-larges. I don't see why that would change. Adding just 8 schools to FCS would make 26 work, so I'll back down on 26 never happening.

[Hawk98]

Great West never got an automatic cuz the membership changed too much and they had to have at least 6 eligible teams. When the field was 16, NCAA decided what conferences would go for guaranteed at-larges. I don't see why that would change. Adding just 8 schools to FCS would make 26 work, so I'll back down on 26 never happening.

NCAA doesn't 'decide' who gets the autobid and who doesn't.

Division I Manual (http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D113.pdf)
Other bylaw (http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/DI_Champs_Sports_Mgmt_Cab/2010/February%202010/Supp_11_AQ%20Bylaw.pdf)




18.5.1 Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification into any Division I championship,
a conference shall: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

(a) Have at least six member institutions classified in Division I in the sport in which automatic qualification is
sought; and

(b) Meet all requirements for conference automatic qualification into any division championship as set forth in
Bylaw 31.3.4. (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)

...

31.3.4 Automatic Qualification. Each governing sport committee shall forward annually to the Championships/Sports Management Cabinet those conferences that should receive automatic qualification for their teams or individual student-athletes into NCAA championships. Prior to forwarding the list of conferences to receive automatic qualification, a governing sport committee shall ensure that the member conference meets the requirements specified in Bylaws 31.3.4.1 through 31.3.4.7. A member conference may appeal to the Championships/Sports Management Cabinet the automatic-qualification review of the sport committee and the committee’s decision to find, or not find, a conference qualified for automatic-qualification status. The decision of the Championships/Sports Management Cabinet on such appeals will be final. (Revised: 1/14/97 effective 8/1/97, 4/27/00,11/1/07 effective 8/1/08)
31.3.4.1 Requirements—Division Championship. To be eligible for automatic qualification in a Division Championship, a member conference must meet the following requirements: (Revised: 1/9/06 effective 8/1/06)
(a) Conference competition must be conducted in the applicable sport and the conference champion in that sport must be determined not later than the date on which participants are selected for the NCAA championship, either by regular in-season conference competition or a conference meet or tournament, as indicated at the time of application. If a conference’s competition to determine its automatic qualifier is unexpectedly terminated (e.g., due to inclement weather), the conference may designate its qualifier, provided it has established objective criteria for making that designation and has communicated that information to the appropriate sports committee by a specified deadline. (Revised: 8/13/93)
(b) In the event of a tie for the conference championship, the conference shall have the responsibility of determining which team or individual shall represent the conference in NCAA competition. If a play-off is held, such competition shall be considered conference competition, not NCAA competition.
(c) In sports other than championship subdivision football....
(d) In championship subdivision football, football-playing conferences that subdivide into five or more teams are required to conduct a single round-robin competition within each division and develop a formula for determination of the conference champion, which must be approved by the Football Championship Committee prior to the start of the season. A postseason championship game is not required. (Adopted:10/27/98, Revised: 12/15/06)
(e) The conference must maintain and actively enforce compliance with eligibility rules at least as stringent as those in Bylaw 14 applicable to its members. The use of an ineligible student-athlete by a team in a conference that has been granted automatic qualification may result in the involved team being denied the right to be the automatic entry in the NCAA championship. The governing sports committee may recommend loss of the automatic-qualification privilege for the conference during the season in which the violation occurred or for a future championship.
(f) All eligible member institutions must agree to participate in the appropriate NCAA championship. If a conference champion is ineligible to compete, declines to compete or
cannot compete for any reason, automatic qualification shall be withdrawn for that year and the remaining conference members shall be considered at large. Automatic qualification for a conference shall not be withdrawn if a conference champion declines to compete in an NCAA championship for reasons related to written religious policies against competition on certain days. Under such circumstances, the conference’s second-place team (as determined by the conference), shall receive the automatic bid to the NCAA championship. (Revised:4/20/99)
(g) All institutions may hold membership in only that conference in the sport in which automatic qualification is sought and may participate in only that conference’s process to determine the automatic qualifier. (Adopted: 12/5/94)

[kalm]

Lehigh is a nice story, but SMCF is absolutely correct here. In general I would much prefer to play a Patriot League team in the playoffs than an at-large from one of the power conferences.

[PantherRob82]

7-0 and 6-1 can easily be flipped on strength of schedule. 7-0 and 3-4 or something like that cannot.

The sport is about winning. It doesn't matter how good you are. NDSU finally played a tight game and they lost. That tells me something about how they might do in the postseason, which to be honest, is all that matters in FCS, not any of the polls.

Like when they lost to YSU in a tight one last year and then won the NC? xlolx

[RichH2]

Lehigh is a nice story, but SMCF is absolutely correct here. In general I would much prefer to play a Patriot League team in the playoffs than an at-large from one of the power conferences.

No problem. That's pretty much what all our opponents say. Personally dont ever expect that to change. More fun for us since the wins are that much more enjoyable.

[Hawk98]

Lehigh is a nice story, but SMCF is absolutely correct here. In general I would much prefer to play a Patriot League team in the playoffs than an at-large from one of the power conferences.

I bet UNI and Towson thought the same thing the last few years. Lehigh has like 2 losses in the last 28 games that weren't to the eventual national champions, and they were to UNH and Delaware who were top 10 or so at the time. They aren't an easy out.

[kalm]

I bet UNI and Towson thought the same thing the last few years. Lehigh has like 2 losses in the last 28 games that weren't to the eventual national champions, and they were to UNH and Delaware who were top 10 or so at the time. They aren't an easy out.

Then they should play up more often.

The CAA was down last year, and UNI has had it's struggles the last few years - especially in the playoffs. That's not to say you haven't fielded competitive teams but your level of competition is not the same as, say a BSC team. There's very few weeks you can take off, get your backups some PT and just coast. And injuries build up throughout the season. The only time we get to do that is when we play down a level or two like a Central Washington. Of course, they fund scholarships to at or greater than your level and would probably be competing for PFL conference titles. And yes, they occasionally creep up and beat us, just like you guys would.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Then they should play up more often.

The CAA was down last year, and UNI has had it's struggles the last few years - especially in the playoffs. That's not to say you haven't fielded competitive teams but your level of competition is not the same as, say a BSC team. There's very few weeks you can take off, get your backups some PT and just coast. And injuries build up throughout the season. The only time we get to do that is when we play down a level or two like a Central Washington. Of course, they fund scholarships to at or greater than your level and would probably be competing for PFL conference titles. And yes, they occasionally creep up and beat us, just like you guys would.

Living in Big Sky country, a quality PL team would compete in this conference.

[kalm]

Living in Big Sky country, a quality PL team would compete in this conference.

You may be right. But that's 1 or 2 teams out of the entire conference at best. The week in, week out battle is why you see BSC 8-3 at large teams go and take out seeded teams in the playoffs.

[Hawk98]

You may be right. But that's 1 or 2 teams out of the entire conference at best. The week in, week out battle is why you see BSC 8-3 at large teams go and take out seeded teams in the playoffs.

I don't think anyone is saying that an 8-3 PL team should get any consideration for an at-large. But a team that goes 11-0 in any league is going to be relatively tough to knock out, because they'll have strong confidence and have won close games. Then you combine that with the fact that Lehigh has been doing this for 2-3 years, and if they win the PL then I'm not going to go into the playoffs thinking they are completely outclassed by any 8-3 BS/MVFC/CAA team.

[RichH2]

Kalm
You know your claim is disengenuous at best. Regardkess of who you play week to week durimg the season, the issue is who you beat in playoffs. Stamina weekly is admirable but not the vriteria for playoffs nor should it be. Playoffs s/b decided on the field not by conference alignment.

[kalm]

Kalm
You know your claim is disengenuous at best. Regardkess of who you play week to week durimg the season, the issue is who you beat in playoffs. Stamina weekly is admirable but not the vriteria for playoffs nor should it be. Playoffs s/b decided on the field not by conference alignment.

B.S. Nova went on the road in 2010 and beat McNeese, ASU, and took us down to the wire. They were 7-4 that year. They were able to do this because they played a monster of a schedule in conference. No PFL team would be given that chance because the conference plain and simply isn't as good. I higher level of competition makes you better come playoff time...for those fortunate enough to get in. This is true whether a team is 7-4 or 11-0.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

B.S. Nova went on the road in 2010 and beat McNeese, ASU, and took us down to the wire. They were 7-4 that year. They were able to do this because they played a monster of a schedule in conference. No PFL team would be given that chance because the conference plain and simply isn't as good. I higher level of competition makes you better come playoff time...for those fortunate enough to get in. This is true whether a team is 7-4 or 11-0.

I disagree with this. You can't be playing complete slugs all year but you don't need to play murderers row either. This fact has been proved over and over in college hoops. The PL teams in general, play solid OOC schedules. Lehigh's slate this year is the exception rather than the rule.

Heck, is the Southland really anymore of a power conference than the PL? I think the PL, OVC and Southland are pretty equal.

I'm not sure why you keep referencing the Pioneer League.

[kalm]

I disagree with this. You can't be playing complete slugs all year but you don't need to play murderers row either. This fact has been proved over and over in college hoops.

Heck, is the Southland really anymore of a power conference than the PL? I think the PL, OVC and Southland are pretty equal.

I'm not sure why you keep referencing the Pioneer League.

Sorry I lose track of all the east coast non/partial schollie conferences. :)

And no, the Southland is not a power conference.

[RichH2]

what is your objection to settling it on the field. That a 7-4 BS team might occasionally advance. They s/b rewaded for tough conference and a 9-2 team from NEC s/b penalized even tho they might also advance. Wow, I thought Ivies were elitist. You would fit right in.

[LUHawker]

Lehigh is a nice story, but SMCF is absolutely correct here. In general I would much prefer to play a Patriot League team in the playoffs than an at-large from one of the power conferences.

I hope you get the chance.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Umass did not win all four on the road in 1998. They beat Lehigh 27-21 at home in the quarters. I was there.

As was I. Lehigh: We're Just Better.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And that is one of a couple things I don't like about FCS right now. Just like in FBS I hope they don't give an auto bid to C-USA or Sun Belt unless they prove it. My opinion is that you take the 16 best teams and force teams from those lower leagues to schedule at least mid-level teams from power conferences so we see if a team who would normally go 11-0 or 10-1 in the Pioneer League, SWAC, etc. could hold hang in the playoffs or would it be a blowout every time. The NEC is doing a good job of playing CAA teams and I applaud them for that. As we saw yesterday Duquesne is not as good as they maybe thought but Albany keeps rolling and have beaten a solid Maine team so I will at least say they could be a good opponent and may win what we now call the first round.

Those "schedule games against mid-level teams in power conferences" argument is irrelevant. Before their autobid, Albany scheduled Delaware, Lehigh, Hofstra, and plenty of other big boys, and won some of them, yet never got invited to the playoffs until their autobid game, when they gave a pretty damned good Stony Brook team all they could handle.

The only way we'll know how the Pioneer League and NEC will do in the playoffs is to have them in the playoffs. They are effectively shut out of the playoffs unless they have an autobid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

B.S. Nova went on the road in 2010 and beat McNeese, ASU, and took us down to the wire. They were 7-4 that year. They were able to do this because they played a monster of a schedule in conference. No PFL team would be given that chance because the conference plain and simply isn't as good. I higher level of competition makes you better come playoff time...for those fortunate enough to get in. This is true whether a team is 7-4 or 11-0.

Baloney. They were able to do this since they won the NC the previous year and had Matt Szczur come back from injury and had many of the same parts to that team. Nova hardly came out of the blue with their 7-4 record - they were the preseason No. 1!

[kalm]

Baloney. They were able to do this since they won the NC the previous year and had Matt Szczur come back from injury and had many of the same parts to that team. Nova hardly came out of the blue with their 7-4 record - they were the preseason No. 1!

Pastrami! How often has an at large PL team done that?

[RichH2]

Again a specious argument. PzL has had very few at large bids. Since they practically always go to your power conferences. Given the large # of chances not unusual that some could do it.

[kalm]

Again a specious argument. PzL has had very few at large bids. Since they practically always go to your power conferences. Given the large # of chances not unusual that some could do it.

Why have they had so few at large bids? You're almost there now, and I'm rootin' for ya!

[woffordgrad94]

I would think you would have to consider both records and quality of competition when ranking teams. Hypothetically, I wouldn't rank an 8-0 Davidson team, who plays nobodys like themselves, over say, a 5-3 Montana team with loses to Eastern Washington, Oregon, and Appalachian State. But under no circumstance could I ever rank a team with a losing record.

[kalm]

I would think you would have to consider both records and quality of competition when ranking teams. Hypothetically, I wouldn't rank an 8-0 Davidson team, who plays nobodys like themselves, over say, a 5-3 Montana team with loses to Eastern Washington, Oregon, and Appalachian State. But under no circumstance could I ever rank a team with a losing record.

Quit trying to bring reason into this thread.

[Hawk98]

Why have they had so few at large bids? You're almost there now, and I'm rootin' for ya!

Midwest bias.

[kalm]

Midwest bias.


xlolx

[WrenFGun]

Does anyone realistically believe that the top 6 teams in big conferences wouldn't have Lehigh's record if they played that schedule?

I think it's something like, 70/30 that Northern Iowa would be undefeated with Lehigh's schedule right now. Lehigh shouldn't be penalized by teams who think they have real talent, but for those that vote on resumes/quality of victories, it's got to be damn near impossible for Lehigh to move up.

I WOULD vote for a 3-4 team with a better resume than a 7-0 team. That's all that matters.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

Does anyone realistically believe that the top 6 teams in big conferences wouldn't have Lehigh's record if they played that schedule?

I think it's something like, 70/30 that Northern Iowa would be undefeated with Lehigh's schedule right now. Lehigh shouldn't be penalized by teams who think they have real talent, but for those that vote on resumes/quality of victories, it's got to be damn near impossible for Lehigh to move up.

I WOULD vote for a 3-4 team with a better resume than a 7-0 team. That's all that matters.

I'm down. Lehigh is 16 in my poll and Harvard is unranked (ineligible).