Harvard Crimson: "Compete, Or Stop Pretending To Try"

[DFW HOYA]

Excerpt: "At this point, tradition is the only thing holding the league together. And the Ivy League’s inability (or at least lack of desire) to adapt has driven interest in Ancient Eight football to a low, even as Harvard fields one of its best teams in recent memory."

http://www.thecrimson.com/column/e-b-write/article/2012/10/10/samuels-column-football-postseason/

[RichH2]

Not anything new. IL has removed itself from any relevancy in football except to itself. We PL fans follow with some interest given our tradition with IL. That interest will certainly decrease markedly over the next decade, when they schedule fewer games with us. Then very few outside IL will have any interest in them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Ivy League presidents really ought to read their student papers more often. This is a great article, and I do mean great. But I just don't think the presidents are interested in listening to fans, or potential fans, which is sad.

[Go Green]

Ivy coaches have long been in favor of playoffs:

http://www.nj.com/sports/njsports/index.ssf/2011/08/ivy_league_coaches_still_clamo.html

Throughout the years, various Ivy student newspapers and/or student government boards have condemned the ban on playoff participation. Pretty much every Ivy fan does as well.

The only ones who like the playoff ban are the Ivy Presidents, who, unfortunately, are also the decision makers. Ivy football advocates lost a strong supporter when Dartmouth's President Kim took over the World Bank. Yale's Levin (who hates football) is retiring. We will see who their respective replacements are....

[RichH2]

Well Green, I hope that they are proactive but how likely are even these to.counter the IL inertia?

[DFW HOYA]

Playoffs are a painkiller, but they are not the cure--if they were, we'd all be talking about those attendance numbers at PL games...

What Ivy football needs is a little of what Tommy Amaker brought to Harvard basketball--maximizing the Ivy advantage in recruiting (i.e., free tuition under a $90K household income), extending recruiting beyond the prep schools and the kids that don't get offers in I-A, sell recruits on their opportunity to play pro ball, and, finally, to schedule better opponents, even at the exclusion of Tavani, Coen, et al. If Harvard could play Duke or Northwestern or even Boston College, they probably don't win, but they sure aren't drawing 7,112, either.

[Go Green]

. If Harvard could play Duke or Northwestern or even Boston College, they probably don't win, but they sure aren't drawing 7,112, either.

Even if we could convince those schools to visit Harvard Stadium (a tall order in itself), my understanding is that FBS victories over nonscholarship FCS teams do not count for bowl eligibility. If that's wrong, I'd love to be corrected.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Playoffs are a painkiller, but they are not the cure--if they were, we'd all be talking about those attendance numbers at PL games...

What Ivy football needs is a little of what Tommy Amaker brought to Harvard basketball--maximizing the Ivy advantage in recruiting (i.e., free tuition under a $90K household income), extending recruiting beyond the prep schools and the kids that don't get offers in I-A, sell recruits on their opportunity to play pro ball, and, finally, to schedule better opponents, even at the exclusion of Tavani, Coen, et al. If Harvard could play Duke or Northwestern or even Boston College, they probably don't win, but they sure aren't drawing 7,112, either.

How many FBS teams would even play on the road at a FCS school?

[UNH Fanboi]

While I support the Ivy joining the playoffs if they want to, declining interest in Ivy football has very, very little to do with their lack of participation in the playoffs. I doubt Harvard students would turn out in large numbers to watch Harvard get walloped by NDSU or another state school they have never heard of.

[McNeese75]

That’s a start, at least for the Crimson, but I think the program should aim higher. In a weird way, the program would do itself a service by inviting an FBS team to Harvard Stadium, selling 25,000 tickets, and getting killed (whether that’s good for Harvard competitively is a different question).

Wow, they are removed from reality if they think an FBS team is going to come to their place for a game.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Playoffs are a painkiller, but they are not the cure--if they were, we'd all be talking about those attendance numbers at PL games...

OK, lets talk about PL attendance numbers. The PL does well when taking into account the size of the schools and the number of living alumni. Typical game attendance at Lafayette College, during a losing season, equals 3-4 times the student population and represents more than a quarter of all living alumni. Lafayette is one tenth the size of Harvard and Cornell.

Wouldn't most institutions consider that to be a reasonable level of support?

[Laker]

A Harvard graduate once quoted George Bernard Shaw- " 'Other people,' he said, 'see things and say: why - but I dream things that never were and say: why not?'" I wish that the Ivy League presidents would see things that way.

[UNH Fanboi]

That’s a start, at least for the Crimson, but I think the program should aim higher. In a weird way, the program would do itself a service by inviting an FBS team to Harvard Stadium, selling 25,000 tickets, and getting killed (whether that’s good for Harvard competitively is a different question).

Wow, they are removed from reality if they think an FBS team is going to come to their place for a game.

Or even play them at all, since they don't count for bowl eligibility unless they offer "scholarships", which is another example of Ivy League hypocrisy.

[Sader87]

That’s a start, at least for the Crimson, but I think the program should aim higher. In a weird way, the program would do itself a service by inviting an FBS team to Harvard Stadium, selling 25,000 tickets, and getting killed (whether that’s good for Harvard competitively is a different question).

Wow, they are removed from reality if they think an FBS team is going to come to their place for a game.

Army is going to the Yale Bowl in 2013 or 2014....BC would kill to play at Harvard Stadium, they've wanted to for decades.

[UNH Fanboi]

OK, lets talk about PL attendance numbers. The PL does well when taking into account the size of the schools and the number of living alumni. Typical game attendance at Lafayette College, during a losing season, equals 3-4 times the student population and represents more than a quarter of all living alumni. Lafayette is one tenth the size of Harvard and Cornell.

Wouldn't most institutions consider that to be a reasonable level of support?

Yes, but what were the numbers in the 80s. Interest in northeastern FCS football has clearly declined, even amongst schools that participate in the playoffs.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Wow, they are removed from reality if they think an FBS team is going to come to their place for a game.

I could name several FBS schools right off the top of my head that likely would accept an invitation to play at Harvard. Boston College, Army, Duke, UMass (obviously), Vanderbilt, Rice, Northwestern.

[citdog]

A Harvard graduate once quoted George Bernard Shaw- " 'Other people,' he said, 'see things and say: why - but I dream things that never were and say: why not?'" I wish that the Ivy League presidents would see things that way.


and then a douche from Delaware had to drop out of the Presidential Race for not giving credit to EITHER of the above mentioned gentlemen. i wonder who that could have been?



http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-MJWIv74Ke6s/T74T8OqjvtI/AAAAAAAAA1k/3YYygRCXAt4/s1600/Sling+Blather.jpg





on the subject it is really a shame they don't want to take part in the playoffs but.........."each acting in its sovereign and independent character"........

[citdog]

I could name several FBS schools right off the top of my head that likely would accept an invitation to play at Harvard. Boston College, Army, Duke, UMass (obviously), Vanderbilt, Rice, Northwestern.


NO.....none of those listed would play at an FCS.

[Sader87]

I guarantee you BC would accept to play a game at Harvard. GUARANTEE.

[Franks Tanks]

NO.....none of those listed would play at an FCS.

Army is playing at the Yale Bowl next year.

[citdog]

Army is playing at the Yale Bowl next year.

Hudson High don't count. Canoe U last played us in Charleston in 1988 and after losing they SURE AS HELL aren't coming back and the black knights won't come to The Citadel or VMI under ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. No for Duke, or boston college, sader can think what he wants but NO ACC team is going to play an FCS on the road. Too much conference prestige involved there. NO SEC team is going to play an FCS on the road either for the same reason.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Whether some FBSINO teams decide to play at a FCSINO stadium, it doesn't change the insular nature of the Ivy that has voluntarily separated itself from competitive football.

[Sader87]

With apologies to our esteemed poster from Dixie, having lived in Massachusetts for 40 (ahem) years and following college football in these environs very closely, I think I have a little bit better understanding of the dynamics involved on what BC would choose to do rather than someone from the South Carolina low country.

It has long been the dream of BC alums to play (and subsequently defeat) Harvard in football, whether that game was played in Harvard Stadium or some back alley somewhere is immaterial....they would hop, skip and jump across the Charles to take on the Crimson in Harvard Stadium.

[bulldog10jw]

Army is playing at the Yale Bowl next year.

2014 (100th anniversary of the Yale Bowl)

[DFW HOYA]

OK, lets talk about PL attendance numbers. The PL does well when taking into account the size of the schools and the number of living alumni.

Per the NCAA archives, here are the average atendance figures from 1982. Are any PL schools close to this today? Well, a few.

Holy Cross (Fittton Field): 14,499 average, high of 20,681
Lehigh (Taylor Stadium): 10,700 average, high of 14,000
Lafayette (Fisher Field): 9,800 average, high of 10,000
Colgate (Andy Kerr Stadium): 6,567 average, high of 8,150
Bucknell (Memorial Stadium): 5,033 average, high of 7,100

And merely for notation, the D-III averages at Fordham and Georgetown:

Fordham (Jack Coffey Field): 2,176 average, high of 4,164
Georgetown (Kehoe Field): 1,318 average, high of 2,318

The big drop off has been in the Ivy schools.

Yale (Yale Bowl): 21,742 average, high of 33,000
Penn (Franklin Field): 20,772 average, high of 34,756
Harvard (Harvard Stadium): 17,400 average, high of 40,000
Princeton (Palmer Stadium): 16,450 average, high of 21,243
Dartmouth (Memorial Field): 11,233 average, high of 17,400
Brown (Brown Stadium): 10,800 average, high of 14,800
Cornell (Schoellkopf Field): 8,832 average, high of 13,013
Columbia (Baker Field): 4,769 average, high of 8,150

[UNIFanSince1983]

I guess I don't get how the playoffs are worse than the NCAA tournament? Let's not forget the NCAA tournament is on weekdays. The playoff game would be on a weekend. So they cannot use the excuse of the students missing too much school. Let's face it in the first round they would be more than likely to face someone close enough the students may not have to miss any classes at all or it would be on Thanksgiving weekend.

If they would be willing to say the NCAA tournament generates more money and exposure I would buy it. I just have a hard time believing the Presidents are not using the missing classes excuse.

[344Johnson]

Playing an Ivy is significantly more important(whether we like it or not) than playing against a typical FCS team. I imagine plenty of schools would take an opportunity to go to Harvard. I also imagine that if the Ivies began to start playing playoff football and made a case to the NCAA, a victory over an Ivy would still count toward bowl eligibility for FBS teams. NCAA would probably love to get the Ivy League more involved and this is my way of thinking. Feel free to shoot holes in it please. It was not a well-thought out plan.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I guess I don't get how the playoffs are worse than the NCAA tournament? Let's not forget the NCAA tournament is on weekdays. The playoff game would be on a weekend. So they cannot use the excuse of the students missing too much school. Let's face it in the first round they would be more than likely to face someone close enough the students may not have to miss any classes at all or it would be on Thanksgiving weekend.

If they would be willing to say the NCAA tournament generates more money and exposure I would buy it. I just have a hard time believing the Presidents are not using the missing classes excuse.

It's a simple formula, they know they can't compete against the greater FCS, so they choose not to.

[UNIFanSince1983]

It's a simple formula, they know they can't compete against the greater FCS, so they choose not to.

They cannot compete with the greater NCAA basketball teams either, but they participate...

[NoDak 4 Ever]

They cannot compete with the greater NCAA basketball teams either, but they participate...

I think there's way too much money in basketball to pass it up.

[Franks Tanks]

They cannot compete with the greater NCAA basketball teams either, but they participate...

You may want to check that statement. Please see Harvard basketball.

BTW Cornell made the sweet 16 two years ago. The Ivy League is practically a mid major in college hoops.

[UNH Fanboi]

With apologies to our esteemed poster from Dixie, having lived in Massachusetts for 40 (ahem) years and following college football in these environs very closely, I think I have a little bit better understanding of the dynamics involved on what BC would choose to do rather than someone from the South Carolina low country.

It has long been the dream of BC alums to play (and subsequently defeat) Harvard in football, whether that game was played in Harvard Stadium or some back alley somewhere is immaterial....they would hop, skip and jump across the Charles to take on the Crimson in Harvard Stadium.

You think BC would jeopardize a bowl appearance just to let out some safety school angst?

[Sader87]

You think BC would jeopardize a bowl appearance just to let out some safety school angst?

I actually do....it's probably died down a bit over the last couple of decades (as BC has emerged as more of an academic and athletic power) but BC (mostly its alums) have long wanted a chance to play Harvard in football (think Irish-Catholic & Yankee antipathy, envy etc etc).

Today you'd still have some of that but you'd also have BC alums (and administration etc) who would love to say they are playing Harvard this week just for the cachet.

[Pard4Life]

Per the NCAA archives, here are the average atendance figures from 1982. Are any PL schools close to this today? Well, a few.

Holy Cross (Fittton Field): 14,499 average, high of 20,681
Lehigh (Taylor Stadium): 10,700 average, high of 14,000
Lafayette (Fisher Field): 9,800 average, high of 10,000
Colgate (Andy Kerr Stadium): 6,567 average, high of 8,150
Bucknell (Memorial Stadium): 5,033 average, high of 7,100

And merely for notation, the D-III averages at Fordham and Georgetown:

Fordham (Jack Coffey Field): 2,176 average, high of 4,164
Georgetown (Kehoe Field): 1,318 average, high of 2,318

The big drop off has been in the Ivy schools.

Yale (Yale Bowl): 21,742 average, high of 33,000
Penn (Franklin Field): 20,772 average, high of 34,756
Harvard (Harvard Stadium): 17,400 average, high of 40,000
Princeton (Palmer Stadium): 16,450 average, high of 21,243
Dartmouth (Memorial Field): 11,233 average, high of 17,400
Brown (Brown Stadium): 10,800 average, high of 14,800
Cornell (Schoellkopf Field): 8,832 average, high of 13,013
Columbia (Baker Field): 4,769 average, high of 8,150

You have a link for this?

[Sader87]

It's a simple formula, they know they can't compete against the greater FCS, so they choose not to.

Untrue...I've said it before and I'll post it again.

If the Ivies truly wanted to, they would dominate FCS football.

[Bill]

Sader
I've been with you on this one for ever....having recruited against and been around those schools for a while, it wouldn't even be close IF they wanted to!

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Untrue...I've said it before and I'll post it again.

If the Ivies truly wanted to, they would dominate FCS football.

Holy cow, you really wanted to get into Harvard, didn't you?

[RichH2]

Westerners underestimate IL resources and national recruiting ability. That they have decided not does not mean they couldn't.

[heath]

You may want to check that statement. Please see Harvard basketball.

BTW Cornell made the sweet 16 two years ago. The Ivy League is practically a mid major in college hoops.

Cornell is not a very good example of competing. How' they do the last 2 years. If you look at the schedules of the Ivies or even the PL,just because a team gets 22 to 25 wins a season doesn't mean much.Upgrade your schedule so you play ranked teams during the season,not in the Tourney, if you make it that far. Sometimes you guys live in such a bubble,you have no clue what good competition is.Kinda like the Lax argument ya'll made. It's weak,but you don't even realize it.I do wish the IL champ was playoff bound every year,but just like the PL,most would expect one win to be about the best they could do.Harvard travelling to Fargo would be awesomexnodx

[putter]

I think there's way too much money in basketball to pass it up.


...and prestige. Whatever team makes it is on national TV right up there with UNC, Duke etc. They could win the FCS NC and nobody in Boston or New Haven, etc. would give a crap. To the presidents there is nothing to stroke the ego on at the FCS level.

[Pard4Life]

Westerners underestimate IL resources and national recruiting ability. That they have decided not does not mean they couldn't.

Stanford relaxed their standards a bit and hired a first-class coach, and look what happened. Duke, I am aware, is in the beginning stages of improving their program.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Westerners underestimate IL resources and national recruiting ability. That they have decided not does not mean they couldn't.

Yes, I'm almost sure John Crockett, who needed 2 years to get his grades up to play at NDSU, would fit in perfectly at Yale.

[Pard4Life]

...and prestige. Whatever team makes it is on national TV right up there with UNC, Duke etc. They could win the FCS NC and nobody in Boston or New Haven, etc. would give a crap. To the presidents there is nothing to stroke the ego on at the FCS level.

Yep, this is more or less the thesis of Mr. Colgate13, who is long gone from the AGS scene. I happen to agree.

[Lehigh'98]

Holy cow, you really wanted to get into Harvard, didn't you?


If the Patriot League can compete, no reason the Ivy's cant.

[DFW HOYA]

You have a link for this?

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch

[Sader87]

Holy cow, you really wanted to get into Harvard, didn't you?

Nope...born and raised a Crusader, father was HC '50....not that I would have got into Harvard xlolx

[Franks Tanks]

Cornell is not a very good example of competing. How' they do the last 2 years. If you look at the schedules of the Ivies or even the PL,just because a team gets 22 to 25 wins a season doesn't mean much.Upgrade your schedule so you play ranked teams during the season,not in the Tourney, if you make it that far. Sometimes you guys live in such a bubble,you have no clue what good competition is.Kinda like the Lax argument ya'll made. It's weak,but you don't even realize it.I do wish the IL champ was playoff bound every year,but just like the PL,most would expect one win to be about the best they could do.Harvard travelling to Fargo would be awesomexnodx

Just go away.

Last year Harvard was ranked in the top 25 and beat teams like Florida State, St. Joe's, Boston College and Utah.

Cornel may have been a one hit wonder but it was still the Sweet 16. Princeton and Penn have had many excellent years, and both appared in the Final 4. Ivy League school do very well in sports like Soccer, Lax, Swimming Volleyball etc. The point stands. IF the Ivies wanted to be really good in football they would be. It wasn't ALL that long ago that the Ivies would crush most of the schools that make up FCS football today.

[Franks Tanks]

Yes, I'm almost sure John Crockett, who needed 2 years to get his grades up to play at NDSU, would fit in perfectly at Yale.

What does that have to do with anything. The Ivies recuit nationally and would get many more recruits qualified for admission if they relaxed standards just a smidge. They are super high.

[NDB]

While I support the Ivy joining the playoffs if they want to, declining interest in Ivy football has very, very little to do with their lack of participation in the playoffs. I doubt Harvard students would turn out in large numbers to watch Harvard get walloped by NDSU or another state school they have never heard of.


stupid harvard kids.

[dbackjon]

You think BC would jeopardize a bowl appearance just to let out some safety school angst?


If BC wins more than 6 games, then that is irrelevant. If BC was 7-5, with win #7 being over Harvard, they are still bowl eligible, and most people won't know/care that Harvard is not a "counter".

[heath]

Untrue...I've said it before and I'll post it again.

If the Ivies truly wanted to, they would dominate FCS football.

If I truly decided to play the lottery,I would definitely win.Guess we will never know about either,but odds are about the same. Step out of the NE bubble and realize that the Ivy League is special,and have great history(Harvard beats Yale 29-29),would never dominate in football now.

[Franks Tanks]

If I truly decided to play the lottery,I would definitely win.Guess we will never know about either,but odds are about the same. Step out of the NE bubble and realize that the Ivy League is special,and have great history(Harvard beats Yale 29-29),would never dominate in football now.

Why not?

Stanford gives a bit of leeway to Harbaugh and Shaw and they are a top 25 team. Vanderbilt hires a good coach and all of a sudden they are competing in the SEC. With the right coach, and a bit of instutional support virtually every Ivy could be very relevant in the FCS world.

[Go Green]

. Princeton and Penn have had many excellent years, and both appared in the Final 4. .

Dartmouth has made the NCAA championship game twice. :D

[Sader87]

Dartmouth has made the NCAA championship game twice. :D

And we've won it.

[heath]

Why not?

Stanford gives a bit of leeway to Harbaugh and Shaw and they are a top 25 team. Vanderbilt hires a good coach and all of a sudden they are competing in the SEC. With the right coach, and a bit of instutional support virtually every Ivy could be very relevant in the FCS world.

Only if they dropped their standards.How many of the Ivies have a PE degree,or criminal justice etc.The Ivy league would never lower their standards period. You mention Stanford,well look at UVA. They refuse to lower academic standards,don't create majors for athletes,and don't take grey shirts like rest of the ACC. How's that working for the Cavaliers. Easy to field a Lax team etc., but football is a very different animal.

[Franks Tanks]

Only if they dropped their standards.How many of the Ivies have a PE degree,or criminal justice etc.The Ivy league would never lower their standards period. You mention Stanford,well look at UVA. They refuse to lower academic standards,don't create majors for athletes,and don't take grey shirts like rest of the ACC. How's that working for the Cavaliers. Easy to field a Lax team etc., but football is a very different animal.

We are talking about lowering standards from say a 1380 SAT to a 1250 (or whatever). The 1250 plus pool is small, the 1350 plus (or whatever the number) pool shrinks to an extremely small number. They could recruit competent students who would graduate by bending just a bit.

[UNIFanSince1983]

Why not?

Stanford gives a bit of leeway to Harbaugh and Shaw and they are a top 25 team. Vanderbilt hires a good coach and all of a sudden they are competing in the SEC. With the right coach, and a bit of instutional support virtually every Ivy could be very relevant in the FCS world.

Did you really just say Vandy is competing in the SEC? Stanford is okay, but they are not dominating. Guess who is Alabama, LSU, South Carolina, Florida and so on. These are all big state schools that no one is arguing is a great academic schools. Notre Dame has famously struggled since they have refused to lower their standards.

Basketball is also a different beast. You get 1 or 2 superstars (i.e. Steph Curry at Davidson) and you will make noise in the NCAA tournament.

None of this answers the question of why it is okay to compete in the NCAA Basketball Tournament as well as other tournaments and not the FCS Playoffs?

[Sader87]

Did you really just say Vandy is competing in the SEC? Stanford is okay, but they are not dominating. Guess who is Alabama, LSU, South Carolina, Florida and so on. These are all big state schools that no one is arguing is a great academic schools. Notre Dame has famously struggled since they have refused to lower their standards.

Basketball is also a different beast. You get 1 or 2 superstars (i.e. Steph Curry at Davidson) and you will make noise in the NCAA tournament.

None of this answers the question of why it is okay to compete in the NCAA Basketball Tournament as well as other tournaments and not the FCS Playoffs?

It's been answered here in a variety of ways...simply put, the Ivy presidents/administrations don't deem playing for a National Championship at the FCS level as worthy of their efforts/$$$/lowering of their academic standards etc

[bonarae]

Alright, since I just read all 6 pages of this thread thus far, and I am now going to give a say here...

In reality, I'm starting to give up Ivy football because I've already grown tired of the Presidents ignoring us fans, coaches and students about participating in the FCS playoffs and more diverse scheduling of teams (e.g. NDSU fans even had their say here). xsmhx However, clearly, northeastern college football has clearly declined over the past 20 years or so, but, that's another story. Massachusetts has only four Division I football teams playing today, down from around six or seven in the 1990's. New York's numbers are also down as well (only seven today, down from around 10 or 11 in the 1990's). After I visit the U.S. in 2014, that's where I'll start contemplating to switch teams/loyalties. xchinscratchx

[Pard4Life]

Dartmouth has made the NCAA championship game twice. :D

It's amazing when you think about it, because now, 8 wins is a good year!

[Pard4Life]

http://web1.ncaa.org/stats/StatsSrv/careersearch

Thank you.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sader97 is absolutely correct. In fact, Boston College likely would pay for the opportunity to play at Harvard Stadium. What's more, Harvard is very selective about where they play on the road for OOC games. Like Yale, I think that Harvard would play an FCS team only were the game to be played at Harvard. It's not like they need a pay game. I stand by my contention in my earlier post that several FBS teams gladly would travel to Harvard.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Thank you.

Lafayette had a high of 10,000 in the 1980s? Even for a Lehigh game? That cannot possibly be accurate.

[Pard4Life]

Lafayette had a high of 10,000 in the 1980s? Even for a Lehigh game? That cannot possibly be accurate.

DFW said it was for 1982... my guess is that it's 1981-1982, so the GAME would be at Taylor. Their high, as he lists, is 14,400, which puts it in line for the GAME.

[Go...gate]

Lafayette had a high of 10,000 in the 1980s? Even for a Lehigh game? That cannot possibly be accurate.

I also have questions about the 1982 Colgate stats. We only had four home games (one a play-off game vs. BU) that year, and one of them was Holy Cross in an ABC-TV regional game which was a sell-out along the lines of Rutgers '77. I know - I was there. According to Colgate, that 1982 HC game drew 14,000.

[UAalum72]

New York's numbers are also down as well (only seven today, down from around 10 or 11 in the 1990's).
Misleading. Other than Hofstra, the "D-I" programs NY lost were Siena, Canisius, Iona and St. John's - programs with no scholarships and little fan support who were only D-I because of the Dayton rule. Meanwhile we've added Stony Brook and Albany (1999) and Buffalo (I-AA in 1993, I-A in 1999).
NY now has ten- Buffalo, Cornell, Colgate, Albany, Marist, Army, Columbia, Fordham, Wagner, and Stony Brook.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NY now has ten- Buffalo, Cornell, Colgate, Albany, Marist, Army, Columbia, Fordham, Wagner, and Stony Brook.

You forgot Rutgers and UConn.

[RichH2]

I go afk for a few hrs to actually participate in my life and THE HARVARD ISSUE rambles on.
Even a minor flex in IL AI broadens their recruiting pool substantially. When Ivy ball was still relevant Cozza had ample room to stock his team. Did not destroy Ivy academic reputation.
The sole is not whether it is possible for them to be a major forve nationally, it is. Currently there is no will to do so among the Presidents.

[Go Green]

[/B]

It's been answered here in a variety of ways...

To me, the short version is that Harvard and Yale want to preserve the uniqueness of "The Game," and the other six Presidents don't have the stones to tell H & Y that they're being morons. Emperor has no clothes and all that...

[Go Green]

Like Yale, I think that Harvard would play an FCS team only were the game to be played at Harvard.

The last time H&Y played FBS teams (Army, Navy, Hawaii) in the late 1980s-90s, they were on the road.

[DFW HOYA]

Lafayette had a high of 10,000 in the 1980s? Even for a Lehigh game? That cannot possibly be accurate.

Penn.

http://web1.ncaa.org/footballStatsArchive/FootballStats.pdf?id=5787711.0

[UAalum72]

You forgot Rutgers and UConn.
No, but I did forget the one that pimps itself as 'New York's College Team'. Make it eleven.

[Franks Tanks]

Did you really just say Vandy is competing in the SEC? Stanford is okay, but they are not dominating. Guess who is Alabama, LSU, South Carolina, Florida and so on. These are all big state schools that no one is arguing is a great academic schools. Notre Dame has famously struggled since they have refused to lower their standards.

Basketball is also a different beast. You get 1 or 2 superstars (i.e. Steph Curry at Davidson) and you will make noise in the NCAA tournament.

None of this answers the question of why it is okay to compete in the NCAA Basketball Tournament as well as other tournaments and not the FCS Playoffs?

Where do I begin here. Vandy is COMPETING. They beat Missouri and played South Carolina close. They won't win the SEC anytime soon, but they have become a competent opponent. Stanford is a quality program. They played in a BSC bowl last year and beat USC 4 years in a row. They have been a major factor in college football for a few years in a row. Stanford or Northwestern may not "dominate" FBS football, but that wasn't the question. Stanford and Vandy have lots of money, but so do their FBS public counterparts.

FCS is completely different. The Ivies would be competing against directional state school with a fraction of the funds of the large land grant public schools in FBS. Stanford may not dominate Texas etc no matter how hard they try, but Harvard could very well do so to the smaller public schools in the FCS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To me, the short version is that Harvard and Yale want to preserve the uniqueness of "The Game," and the other six Presidents don't have the stones to tell H & Y that they're being morons. Emperor has no clothes and all that...

This is why the end of the article, I thought was so well done:


But something has to change, because at the moment, Harvard students are only interested in Ivy League football when it means waking up to find three unknown Yalies on their common-room floor, drinking themselves into oblivion by 11 a.m., and passing out in the Harvard Stadium bleachers sometime in the middle of the third quarter.

But hey, at least that’s tradition, right?

I'm not sure I've seen two sentences that illustrate the problem so clearly. Harvard/Yale isn't more important since it's the last game of the year, it's less, which is exactly why the game, to many students, is about three unknown Yalies passing out on the floor.

[bonarae]

To me, the short version is that Harvard and Yale want to preserve the uniqueness of "The Game," and the other six Presidents don't have the stones to tell H & Y that they're being morons. Emperor has no clothes and all that...

But ask Montana/Montana State or even Michigan/Ohio State (FBS), their rivalries are simply not the end of their seasons. Something really needs to change in the minds of the Presidents. xsmhx

In the number of New York FBS/FCS teams, I'm sorry for omitting Colgate, Albany and Marist. I even thought Marist is in another state. xoopsx

[UNIFanSince1983]

Where do I begin here. Vandy is COMPETING. They beat Missouri and played South Carolina close. They won't win the SEC anytime soon, but they have become a competent opponent. Stanford is a quality program. They played in a BSC bowl last year and beat USC 4 years in a row. They have been a major factor in college football for a few years in a row. Stanford or Northwestern may not "dominate" FBS football, but that wasn't the question. Stanford and Vandy have lots of money, but so do their FBS public counterparts.

FCS is completely different. The Ivies would be competing against directional state school with a fraction of the funds of the large land grant public schools in FBS. Stanford may not dominate Texas etc no matter how hard they try, but Harvard could very well do so to the smaller public schools in the FCS.

Is this assuming the Ivies decide to give scholarships? I am pretty sure Vandy and Stanford offer the same amount of scholarships as Alabama and Texas.

[Go...gate]

You forgot Rutgers and UConn.

LFN, I think he means NYS schools only.

[RichH2]

UNIF,

Most Ivies already give essentially full schollies with their aid policies. Also they are not ltd to 63 as the rest of us are. Since the aid they give is exactly the same as all other stidents IL is excepted from limit.

[Franks Tanks]

Is this assuming the Ivies decide to give scholarships? I am pretty sure Vandy and Stanford offer the same amount of scholarships as Alabama and Texas.

Yes

[Ivytalk]

[/B]

It's been answered here in a variety of ways...simply put, the Ivy presidents/administrations don't deem playing for a National Championship at the FCS level as worthy of their efforts/$$$/lowering of their academic standards etc

And the current Harvard undergrads, a profoundly cynical bunch of achievers, don't give a rat's ***, either. They're too busy studying, or partying, or figuring out how to get a cushy job at a hedge fund. The last Harvard fan will probably die of old age, waving a little pennant at the 50-yard-line of the last Harvard-Yale game in 2038 or so. Turn out the lights. The party's over.

[Franks Tanks]

Penn.

http://web1.ncaa.org/footballStatsArchive/FootballStats.pdf?id=5787711.0

Look at the names on that line-up card.

Craig Williams
Ryan Priest
Novak
Kowgios

Also no way we had less than 10k for Lehigh, unless everyone stayed in the parking lot.

[Go Green]

It's amazing when you think about it, because now, 8 wins is a good year!

At least one, perhaps two of those 8 wins will be against Harvard. xnodx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Penn.

http://web1.ncaa.org/footballStatsArchive/FootballStats.pdf?id=5787711.0

Awesome original source, DFW. I'm surprised that a hand-written record of that Lafayette-Penn game actually has survived. It's actually quaint. Thanks!

[ccd494]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.

[McNeese75]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.

Can't say I would care xcoffeex

[NoDak 4 Ever]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.

What's the difference? Throwing in a select PL or NEC team is pretty much what they do anyway.

[Green26]

I see that Harvard has never won the Lambert Trophy. Princeton won it in 1950 and 1951, and was ranked 6th and 9th in nation. Dartmouth in 1965 and 1970, and was ranked 14th in 1970. Yale tied for it in 1960, and was ranked 14th. Cornell won it in 1939, and was ranked 4th. Navy hasn't won it since 1963. Army hasn't won it since 1958.

Times have changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambert-Meadowlands_Trophy#Lambert_Trophy_winners

[RichH2]

For good.or ill, no question but that times have changed and likely to shift more as BCS pulls further away frpm NCAA. The power of greed has become the mantra of our country now. Sad .

[Bogus Megapardus]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.


What's the difference? Throwing in a select PL or NEC team is pretty much what they do anyway.

Ivy was formed in 1954. In 1953, Penn played Vanderbilt, Penn State, Cal, Ohio St., Navy, Michigan, Notre Dame, Army and Cornell. And all those games were at home, except Michigan. I think that most here would consider that to be a very respectable schedule. But the rest of the pre-Ivy was playing pretty much the same Colgates, Lafayettes, Holy Crosses and Bucknells that they now do. Plus they actually did play Bates, Amherst, Williams, etc.

After the Ivy was formed, the eight schools maintained a nine-game season schedule - seven league opponents plus two OOC. The OOC opponents almost always were one of the four "core" teams that eventually became the PL, plus Rutgers (which also was a member of the pre-PL group). Ivy bumped up to a ten-game schedule in 1980. The additional game often was a step up (Army, Navy, Boston College, W&M, Richmond). But then, when the Patriot was formed in 1986, a formal scheduling arrangement was established so nearly every OOC game in the two leagues was against the other. The "formal" arrangement ended in 1981 (I think) but for the most part Ivy still plays the same guys that it has been playing for the last 100+ years - except that it no longer plays the the little NESCAC boys.

So, if you look at it, with the exception of Penn, Ivy's current opponents cumulatively are the toughest that they've ever faced since the very early, turn-of-the twentieth-century days of football (Penn still plays the toughest OOC schedule, as it always has). IMHO the Ivy players absolutely deserve an opportunity to participate in the FCS playoffs (and I think that Ivy ought to play eleven - not ten - games like everyone else), but I don't really see the rationale for mocking Ivy's schedule. If they start loading up exclusively on Pioneer teams, however, that's a different story.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

For good.or ill, no question but that times have changed and likely to shift more as BCS pulls further away frpm NCAA. The power of greed has become the mantra of our country now. Sad .

+1. And nowhere has that manifested itself more than in regards to NCAA conference realignment, where TV markets and (mostly virtual) potential revenues are bandied about for reasons for expansion and nothing about making the players' time and fan's times more enjoyable.

Michigan/Ohio State was the final conference game of the year for the Wolverines and Buckeyes. Fans loved it. Players loved it. Coaches loved it. There was absolutely no need to change it - until expansion, and the "need" for a conference championship game meant that the date would have to be moved.

Perversely, the Big Ten then tries to spin it as something that generates more money for them, which trickles out to the schools, and thus makes it "good for everyone", even though tradition is wrecked, and a change is being rammed down the throats of everyone that fans, students, and coaches did not ask for. At an alarming rate, greed has been trumping tradition and common sense in college football.

This is something, to the Ivy League's credit, that they recognized nearly sixty years ago, and the schools made a noble stand against the bowls, the TV money, and (also, and this gets lost sometimes) is the support of the Jim Crow South. This was a wothy stand to make, and a brave one. It's also one many small-to-mid-sized institutions made in the 50s and 60s. Lehigh, Lafayette, Drake and other were invited to Bowls in the Jim Crow south at one time or another. All declined, at least in part inspired by the Ivy League's stand against it.

The problem with the IL in the present day is that they suffer from muddle-headed thinking about the definition of Division I athletics and the postseason, and they choose to fudge the principles when it suits them. In a Jim Crow-less world, they want the revenue and prestige of FBS games, but want to preserve the pretense they're "non-scholarship". They want to preserve the postseason ban on principle for football (because it doesn't make money and incorrectly think there's no prestige in the playoffs), yet they want the revenue and prestige of NCAA basketball tournament victories. Without the moral high ground, it's now about a different sort of greed - getting the money where you can, and fudging the principles to make it seem like they're still, somehow, better than everyone else. The principles have gone from being an extremely noble enterprise to becoming a tool to simply disqualify access to their student-athletes to an NCAA postseason.

Like the Big Ten's recent decisions, this postseason ban on the FCS playoffs is something that the fans, players, and (nearly all) the coaches do not want. Like the Big Ten, the Ivy League makes their decision made from above because it suits them, not popular opinion.

[Pard4Life]

Yep, pretty spot on. Harvard has no problem playing Bemidji St. in the NCAA hockey tournament because it's the highest level. They would have an issue playing McNeese St. or NDSU in the FCS playoffs.

When was Lehigh ever invited to a bowl?

[Go Green]

In 1953, Penn played Vanderbilt, Penn State, Cal, Ohio St., Navy, Michigan, Notre Dame, Army and Cornell. And all those games were at home, except Michigan. I think that most here would consider that to be a very respectable schedule.

They lost most of those games. They went 0-for-the-season in 1954 and 1955.



(Penn still plays the toughest OOC schedule, as it always has).

I agree that Penn currently has the most demanding OOC schedule. But throughout the 2000s, Dartmouth played UNH, Colgate, and Holy Cross every year. It was insane. While Penn did play some tough teams in that decade, they also played their share of cupcakes as well.

[Go Green]

The problem with the IL in the present day is that they suffer from muddle-headed thinking about the definition of Division I athletics and the postseason.

Same sentiments can apply to the IL's idiotic decision not to hold a conference basketball tournament. I've been to several PL tournament games and I'm jealous as hell of you guys (and the rest of the world). xbawlingx

[UNH Fanboi]

Yep, pretty spot on. Harvard has no problem playing Bemidji St. in the NCAA hockey tournament because it's the highest level. They would have an issue playing McNeese St. or NDSU in the FCS playoffs.

Exactly. And, wow, when I read "Bemidji St." I thought you just made up a jibberish word. Never head of them. That's probably how most Harvard fans would react to playing Directional St. in the FCS playoffs.

[RichH2]

LU declined Bowl invitations to Tangerine and Sun in 1950..

[Ivytalk]

LU declined Bowl invitations to Tangerine and Sun in 1950..

And you're old enough to remember that!:D

[heath]

If Harvard goes 10-0,and with no playoff games to gauge how good they really are,where do the voters on AGS rank them.If you stop playing just when the really good teams get matched up for a title,do you even include them in the top 20?Best I can see is 12-15 when looking at Top 25 now.

[RichH2]

And you're old enough to remember that!:D

LOL. Well I was alive and potty trained . Started playing for LU the next decade. So it wasn't ancient history yet.

[Pard4Life]

LU declined Bowl invitations to Tangerine and Sun in 1950..

Why?

[RichH2]

What we were told was the then Pres refused for academic issues. Coach told us part of reason was discrimination but real issues more akin to current IL view of football.

[RichH2]

Eveyone here should stop by Ivy Board to see their take on this letter.
Interesting, and kind of sad. Feeling I got sfter reading thread was that IL not capable of playing FBS and if they couldn't do that , FCs wasn't worth the bother and they should only be concerned with their own games.
This probably not the majority view but it was the sense I got from the thread.

[bonarae]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.

If they do so, I'll start cheering for a real playoff-participating team (Albany or Stony Brook) and change my loyalty. xbawlingx


For good.or ill, no question but that times have changed and likely to shift more as BCS pulls further away frpm NCAA. The power of greed has become the mantra of our country now. Sad .

I guess that's true. Ivies don't need the money, they just want it that way for football. How do the BCS schools (Vandy, Michigan, etc.) survive? Licensing? But why do those presidents (of the BCS schools) have a way too different view of athletics than the Ivies'? The leadership of the Ivies should change so that the view will change too. xsmhx


+1. And nowhere has that manifested itself more than in regards to NCAA conference realignment, where TV markets and (mostly virtual) potential revenues are bandied about for reasons for expansion and nothing about making the players' time and fan's times more enjoyable.

Michigan/Ohio State was the final conference game of the year for the Wolverines and Buckeyes. Fans loved it. Players loved it. Coaches loved it. There was absolutely no need to change it - until expansion, and the "need" for a conference championship game meant that the date would have to be moved.

Perversely, the Big Ten then tries to spin it as something that generates more money for them, which trickles out to the schools, and thus makes it "good for everyone", even though tradition is wrecked, and a change is being rammed down the throats of everyone that fans, students, and coaches did not ask for. At an alarming rate, greed has been trumping tradition and common sense in college football.

This is something, to the Ivy League's credit, that they recognized nearly sixty years ago, and the schools made a noble stand against the bowls, the TV money, and (also, and this gets lost sometimes) is the support of the Jim Crow South. This was a wothy stand to make, and a brave one. It's also one many small-to-mid-sized institutions made in the 50s and 60s. Lehigh, Lafayette, Drake and other were invited to Bowls in the Jim Crow south at one time or another. All declined, at least in part inspired by the Ivy League's stand against it.

The problem with the IL in the present day is that they suffer from muddle-headed thinking about the definition of Division I athletics and the postseason, and they choose to fudge the principles when it suits them. In a Jim Crow-less world, they want the revenue and prestige of FBS games, but want to preserve the pretense they're "non-scholarship". They want to preserve the postseason ban on principle for football (because it doesn't make money and incorrectly think there's no prestige in the playoffs), yet they want the revenue and prestige of NCAA basketball tournament victories. Without the moral high ground, it's now about a different sort of greed - getting the money where you can, and fudging the principles to make it seem like they're still, somehow, better than everyone else. The principles have gone from being an extremely noble enterprise to becoming a tool to simply disqualify access to their student-athletes to an NCAA postseason.

Like the Big Ten's recent decisions, this postseason ban on the FCS playoffs is something that the fans, players, and (nearly all) the coaches do not want. Like the Big Ten, the Ivy League makes their decision made from above because it suits them, not popular opinion.

Good point. I think I'll start following Albany or Stony Brook more. Thanks for providing us with the history. xsmhx


If Harvard goes 10-0,and with no playoff games to gauge how good they really are,where do the voters on AGS rank them.If you stop playing just when the really good teams get matched up for a title,do you even include them in the top 20?Best I can see is 12-15 when looking at Top 25 now.

16-20, since there are more deserving playoff-worthy teams (e.g. Tennessee State) that should be in the top 15, if they continue to keep their pace until late in the season.


Eveyone here should stop by Ivy Board to see their take on this letter.
Interesting, and kind of sad. Feeling I got sfter reading thread was that IL not capable of playing FBS and if they couldn't do that , FCs wasn't worth the bother and they should only be concerned with their own games.
This probably not the majority view but it was the sense I got from the thread.

I stopped posting on the Ivy board years ago (shortly after I joined AGS) just because I couldn't take their statements (i.e. my statements disagree with theirs). But once a year or so, I still do stop by there.

So, in the overall sense, by the Presidents' ignorance, are the Ivies less competitive than they used to be? xchinscratchx

[lmckay92]

I'm sorry to redirect the conversation, but it keeps popping up. The only FBS schools I can think of that have played at FCS schools in the last few years are in the MAC. I believe Ball State or Northern Illinois played at someone. There is no way in hell that Boston College would visit Harvard Stadium in the current football landscape. It's fine and dandy that Penn played some great teams at home in the 1950s, but the landscape of college football has completely changed. Boston College may want to play Harvard, but the only way that will happen is if the game is played in Chestnut Hill or Foxboro.

FBS schools, especially the teams with fan bases, simply couldn't walk away from the revenue that a home game offers to play at a non-scholarship school that doesn't count for bowl eligibility. The only way an Ivy League school plays an FBS school is if they do it for a pay day (which they don't need).

[Sader87]

BC would play at Harvard in a heart-beat....people who disagree, don't know what they don't know.

[lmckay92]

Man, I may just go to lowly Marshall University, but I'mma thinkin you ivy league boys aint gettin out much.

[Hawk98]

Man, I may just go to lowly Marshall University, but I'mma thinkin you ivy league boys aint gettin out much.

It's not IL, but a Boston thing. I'm a transplant, but there is a surprising number of locals here that have never left the 495 loop around the city.

[Harvard Worship]

Does anyone happen to know if it is indeed Harvard (and presumably Yale) blocking the Ivies from doing the FCS playoffs or if the decisionmakers at the other Ivies are also against it? Given Harvard's success over the last decade you might suspect that the powers-that-be there would be softening to participating. I can see there's a lot of very reasonable speculation on the (from my viewpoint unfortunate) rationale the top brass has for not participating (preserving H-Y as the last game, etc.), but I wonder if there's any visibility into the actual decisionmaking. Do the Ivy presidents disclose votes on this stuff or is it all back-room and invisible to us?

This topic seems to recur every couple years (at least on this board and in the pages of the Crimson, see: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/11/12/ivy-presidents-listen-up-football-needs/)

Interestingly, that article points out that the Ivies did use to compete in postseason play (Harvard recently had been hanging a "1919 Rose Bowl Champions" banner or something like that atop the stadium).

[bonarae]

Does anyone happen to know if it is indeed Harvard (and presumably Yale) blocking the Ivies from doing the FCS playoffs or if the decisionmakers at the other Ivies are also against it? Given Harvard's success over the last decade you might suspect that the powers-that-be there would be softening to participating. I can see there's a lot of very reasonable speculation on the (from my viewpoint unfortunate) rationale the top brass has for not participating (preserving H-Y as the last game, etc.), but I wonder if there's any visibility into the actual decisionmaking. Do the Ivy presidents disclose votes on this stuff or is it all back-room and invisible to us?

This topic seems to recur every couple years (at least on this board and in the pages of the Crimson, see: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/11/12/ivy-presidents-listen-up-football-needs/)

Interestingly, that article points out that the Ivies did use to compete in postseason play (Harvard recently had been hanging a "1919 Rose Bowl Champions" banner or something like that atop the stadium).

Unfortunately, it's all back-room stuff I believe, with their statements only coming out towards the end of the meeting.

Seems the only thing we Ivy fans can do is become bandwagon fans of other northeast FCS teams who do play in the playoffs (Albany, Stony Brook). xsmhx

[Ivytalk]

Does anyone happen to know if it is indeed Harvard (and presumably Yale) blocking the Ivies from doing the FCS playoffs or if the decisionmakers at the other Ivies are also against it? Given Harvard's success over the last decade you might suspect that the powers-that-be there would be softening to participating. I can see there's a lot of very reasonable speculation on the (from my viewpoint unfortunate) rationale the top brass has for not participating (preserving H-Y as the last game, etc.), but I wonder if there's any visibility into the actual decisionmaking. Do the Ivy presidents disclose votes on this stuff or is it all back-room and invisible to u
This topic seems to recur every couple years (at least on this board and in the pages of the Crimson, see: http://www.thecrimson.com/article/2003/11/12/ivy-presidents-listen-up-football-needs/)

Interestingly, that article points out that the Ivies did use to compete in postseason play (Harvard recently had been hanging a "1919 Rose Bowl Champions" banner or something like that atop the stadium).


Worship, all I've heard is that the presidents are not unanimous. Seems like it's easier to find out how the Pope is chosen than to discover how Ivy FB decisions are made.

[caribbeanhen]

That’s a start, at least for the Crimson, but I think the program should aim higher. In a weird way, the program would do itself a service by inviting an FBS team to Harvard Stadium, selling 25,000 tickets, and getting killed (whether that’s good for Harvard competitively is a different question).

Wow, they are removed from reality if they think an FBS team is going to come to their place for a game.

UMASS? but still just another yawner

[Sader87]

It's not IL, but a Boston thing. I'm a transplant, but there is a surprising number of locals here that have never left the 495 loop around the city.

Exactly. BC would never play at a Brown or a Dartmouth (or even Yale, which BC last visited in 1983) but the Harvard game would be different. As Hawk 98 aptly pointed out it's a "Boston thing."

[Go...gate]

It could be worse, the Ivy could go full on NESCAC and only play each other.

I believe that is what may happen. I don't like it, but the Ivies are running out of schools to play, especially if they quit playing the Patriots, as appears to be happening in the longer term.

[RichH2]

Well said Babar

[DFW HOYA]

Chances the Ivy evolves into a NESCAC-type conference only schedule?

Not much, but not impossible, either.

[RichH2]

Perhaps but for near future more ties to PFL. Less games with PL. Probably alternate us, CAA and NEC.

[bonarae]

Babar, I agree with your sentiments. Glad you've made it back.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm actually pretty okay with people accusing us of being de facto scholarship schools, even though I don't agree, because I understand that reasonable people can disagree about what our massive financial aid means. I agree that our financial aid gives us a huge competitive advantage over other non-scholarship schools (though I would dispute that the advantage obtains when recruiting against schools with actual scholarships.) But I don't have a problem with the way we do financial aid, and it's no skin off my nose if people call it different things.

But the greed accusation, the one where we're selling out for the basketball playoff money or lacrosse sponsorship money, and secretly want BCS bowl money? I think if you thought about it for a while, you might not pull the trigger on that statement so quickly.

First of all, the people who vocally want us to play FBS games are fans like me who want us to play for reasons of relevance and tradition. And even the crazy fans like me don't think we'd be competitive at the FBS level. Wanting an OOC game with Rutgers or Tulane is much different than wanting to play Notre Dame's schedule, or even than wanting to go to a bowl game. And even those of us who occasionally get on internet message boards (or the WSJ editorial page, ugh) and point out Stanford and say, look, we could have the best of both worlds, are talking about wholesale change of the system. They're never talking about doing this without scholarships. They're generally folks who share the outlook of most of AGS, that one should compete at as high a level as resources will allow.

And second...look, we have a lot of money. We spend it to subsidize almost forty varsity sports. None of these are revenue sports. We lose money on athletics every year. And we're clearly okay with that. Anything we make back from the NCAA or sponsors is terrific, of course, but it doesn't even pay for our crew teams.

If you really think our policy decisions are being driven by the relatively minor money from ticket sales or sponsorships, you either don't understand our revenue streams or think we're really, really bad business people. Maybe both. And, I dunno, maybe we are bad business people. I don't buy it.

On the other hand, I agree with you that one reason a lot of us want to play FBS teams is prestige. I'm not sure how to feel about that. That's kind of the name of the game, isn't it? All the stable conferences spend a lot of time thinking about their membership profile. All the schools who want into conferences spend a lot of time thinking about the institutions they'd like to have as peers. You're as cool as the kids you eat lunch with.

But I think you're right to criticize it, because it's kind of petty and incoherent. Playing Rice or Northwestern won't build our profile, and even if it did, the pursuit might make us less ourselves.

Of course, prestige is just one reason to want to play FBS schools. There are other, better reasons, I think. But I do think you're on to something there.

A spirited defense, and (I think) a partial agreement with what I'm saying. Incidentally, you guys indeed are "losing money" on athletics, and you have a lot of good company there - like all the Patriot League schools for starters, and, oh, about 97% of Division I schools overall.

But assuming we're all not in this to "make money" in football, then what are we to make of this? Harvard and Yale want the "prestige" to host BC or Army in a inter-subdivision game that is for all intents and purposes an exhibition game, but doesn't find enough 'prestige" in a (say) playoff matchup with Lehigh or Villanova to actually compete in the NCAA-sponsored playoffs in the subdivision in which they ostensibly compete? Worse, when doing so they want to be able to call themselves "scholarship" so they can get a plum game, yet then brand themselves as "non-scholarship" when playing each other?

I understand money is not driving the decisions. But the decisions are made through muddle-heading thinking about the whole thing, with shifting justifications that make so little sense that it merely seems as if they serve to simply be put in place to deny the student-athletes a postseason.

[RichH2]

Doesn't IL have an exception to vounter rule? In my foggy old brain, I seem to recall that. So then schollie for prestige game , non schollie for academia. Perhaps muddleheaded as you say but really none of our business. IL can be as hypocritical as it wants in its own house. A shame tho.

[RichH2]

That sounds right. Thanks Babar.