Is going to FBS always the right thing?

[woffordgrad94]

Which would you rather be: FCS National Champions or a 4-7 FBS team? Food for thought for teams so eager to move up...for every Boise State there are 10 former FCS winners that are now FBS losers. If I were an ASU or GSU fan I'd be BEGGING them not to move up because I know we'd lose a lot more.

[JMU2004]

I am torn on this issue. I love to watch a winning team.......but I also feel JMU has outgrown FCS.

FCS for us until we can get like minded schools to form a new EC conference.

[woffordgrad94]

I am torn on this issue. I love to watch a winning team.......but I also feel JMU has outgrown FCS.

FCS for us until we can get like minded schools to form a new EC conference.

That's a good plan...if you were able to enter a new FCS conference of newly FCS teams it wouldn't be so bad. You just wouldn't be playing for the playoffs.

[Apphole]

Which would you rather be: FCS National Champions or a 4-7 FBS team? Food for thought for teams so eager to move up...for every Boise State there are 10 former FCS winners that are now FBS losers. If I were an ASU or GSU fan I'd be BEGGING them not to move up because I know we'd lose a lot more.

Ok,

Good move: Boise

Bad move: Now name the alleged '10'

And before you start, I don't think a Marshal team that dominated the MAC before becoming half way decent in C-USA would make the cut.

[Apphole]

I'm confident we will become competitive in the SBC fairly quickly, especially compared to the decade of 0-fer seasons that startups like GaST and UNCC will have. I'm also ready for more exposure, more money for facility enhancements, and above all FBS OUT OF CONFERENCE HOME GAMES WITH ECU, Wake and eventually State or Carolina.

[DFW HOYA]

Ok,

Good move: Boise
Bad move: Now name the alleged '10'


Ten...a reference to these teams?

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/SPORTS/MensSports/Football.aspx

[Thunderstruck]

FCS- Playoffs and possible National champ
-or-
FBS- Get to see some good team, best hope is for Famous Idaho Potato Bowl played in middle of December

Seems like being a top FCS team has better results and a lower FBS team. Realistically, no shot at a NC in FBS.

[superman7515]

Ten...a reference to these teams?

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/SPORTS/MensSports/Football.aspx

There aren't 10 teams there that didn't start out in FBS (or were FCS only for the required start-up and move through period). Arkansas State was 1A first, FAU was just moving through from the beginning, same with FIU, ULL was always 1A, ULM was 1A first, MTSU was an actual move up and has been a failure, North Texas was 1A first, USA just passing through, Troy was an actual move up and I'd consider them mediocre with 5 bowl appearances but certainly not your first thought among good move ups, and Western Kentucky is still too early to tell (although I don't expect much). So 1 definite move up failure and 1 that is mediocre.

[Professor Chaos]

10 is an exaggeration but at the top of my head there's WKU, Idaho, and UMass (albeit very early) that have not been successful FBS moves for traditional FCS/D1AA powers.

[woffordgrad94]

No Marshall is a success...I agree with you there Apphole.

But what of Idaho, Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, Troy, Middle Tennessee State, Massachusetts...not quite 10 but you get the idea. These teams are not enjoying the same FBS success.

[Apphole]

Ten...a reference to these teams?

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/SPORTS/MensSports/Football.aspx

You're kidding right? Have you been paying attention this year?

The SBC has multiple wins over BCS teams this year and is officially surpassed CUSA in conference strength of schedule.

[Apphole]

No Marshall is a success...I agree with you there Apphole.

But what of Idaho, Western Kentucky, Florida Atlantic, North Texas, Troy, Middle Tennessee State, Massachusetts...not quite 10 but you get the idea. These teams are not enjoying the same FBS success.

Florida Atlantic, North Texas and UMass are brand spanking new. No one said it's an overnight transition. WAY too early to call them failures.

MTSU and Troy are SunBelt Powers. They perform very well. I'd put them as successes, especially Troy. They win a bowl game most years. MTSU is a front runner for a CUSA spot. That obvously doesn't mean they're good, but they still manage a good home crowd and their facilities are incredibly nice.

I'll give you Idaho (or anyone else in the WAC).

Don't know much about Western Kentucky. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. That's 2-2 by your count since Boise and Marshal are solid by your admission. By my count that's 4-2 for successful move ups.

[Saint3333]

I wouldn't mind having a season like WKU is having.

http://espn.go.com/college-football/team/_/id/98/western-kentucky-hilltoppers

Two nationally televised games wouldn't be a bad thing either.

[WH49er]

You're kidding right? Have you been paying attention this year?

The SBC has multiple wins over BCS teams this year and is officially surpassed CUSA in conference strength of schedule.



CUSA is down this year (especially USM) but every single Sunbelt team would leave for a CUSA invite.

[JSUBison]

Can't believe nobody has mentioned the fake GSU yet. We all know how that will turn out.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

UConn is the only "success story" so far, IMO. They make money in their athletics program and have also successfully protected their basketball program.

Boise State is an "incomplete" since their basketball is in neverland right now and nobody knows how the Big East will work with them. Do they have fame? Yes. Do they have the big bowl win? Yes - thanks to the BCS formula, which is now going away with plus-one. Will it continue, now that the national champion will be determined in a smoke-filled room than a formula? I think not. Are they "making money"? Absolutely not.

As for the WAC/Sun Belt/CUSA teams - where are they, again, now, after realignment? FCS? Their own money-losing subdivision?

[Professor Chaos]

Can't believe nobody has mentioned the fake GSU yet. We all know how that will turn out.
I was assuming we weren't counting them because the OP's question was is it better to compete for a national title at the FCS level or be an also-ran at the FBS level. In GStU's case the question is whether it's better to be a bottom feeder at the FCS level or the laughingstock of the FBS level.

[Apphole]

CUSA is down this year (especially USM) but every single Sunbelt team would leave for a CUSA invite.

Because of your TV contract. It has nothing to do with how good the conference is on the field. CUSA is a declining league. It has been since the Big East raid and it will continue to be, especially when Charlotte starts playing.

[asumike83]

In looking back over the last 10-15 years, I don't think there is an FCS National Champion that would have gone 4-7 in the MAC/WAC/Sun Belt/C-USA conferences. I think the more accurate question would be 'would you rather be a 7-4 playoff team or a 4-7 FBS team', which is very valid.

One thing worth noting is that it used to be much easier to make the transition from FCS to FBS. Unless it is a market-based move, you won't see any FCS teams with 10K attendance or a small athletic budget moving up. Now, any small market team that moves will do so because they have the funding, fan support and facilities to get an invite. A lot of programs struggled because they wanted to play FBS football but did not have the support structure they needed. I am obviously biased but I think that App would be positioned well because our attendance and facilities would be on par with our conference peers and in some cases, better.

[Apphole]

Can't believe nobody has mentioned the fake GSU yet. We all know how that will turn out.

Wouldn't call them or UNCC a "move up." They're start ups.

[WH49er]

Because of your TV contract. It has nothing to do with how good the conference is on the field. CUSA is a declining league. It has been since the Big East raid and it will continue to be, especially when Charlotte starts playing.


Best of luck with your invite then. Sure the good ole' boy Charlie will get it for you.

[Gil Dobie]

FCS Champion over non-BCS conference
FBS BCS conference would be the only reason to move up.

[woffordgrad94]

Why does everyone just assume that UNCC will be a bad football program? I know they'll probably stuggle right out of the gate, but they might build a soild progarm. I like Charlotte...I think its a pretty good city.

[McNeese72]

xpopcornx

Waiting for JohnStonge to show up in this string with his stats.

xarguex

Doc

[WH49er]

Why does everyone just assume that UNCC will be a bad football program? I know they'll probably stuggle right out of the gate, but they might build a soild progarm. I like Charlotte...I think its a pretty good city.

Exactly, every startup program will struggle to varying degrees. We have a very loyal fanbase that is football deprived. We just had our worst consecutive seasons of basketball and still put 6K in the building every night.

Football is a different monster attendance wise and it's going to take alot to grow it but we've started things the right way, following in ODU's footsteps.


Nothing is a given by any means but we have a solid foundation. Winning will build on that solid foundation.

[DFW HOYA]

You're kidding right? Have you been paying attention this year?


Um...yes, and yes.

The Mean Green left the Southland a while ago.

[Apphole]

Exactly, every startup program will struggle to varying degrees. We have a very loyal fanbase that is football deprived. We just had our worst consecutive seasons of basketball and still put 6K in the building every night.

Football is a different monster attendance wise and it's going to take alot to grow it but we've started things the right way, following in ODU's footsteps.


Nothing is a given by any means but we have a solid foundation. Winning will build on that solid foundation.

Winning sill be very important for you guys. Start out bad and you could be looking at Georgia State in the mirror. Win all the easy one's and be competitive against the SoCon and eventually CUSA opponents on your later schedules and you could end up with an impressive program right off the bat. No pressure.

There's no denying you have a loyal hard core base of fans. Problem is with the droves of transient alumni. Get their attention early and you're in good shape.

[ODU Oldtimer]

CUSA is down this year (especially USM) but every single Sunbelt team would leave for a CUSA invite.

Seems to be a fact.

Teams that are leaving CUSA are having a down year.........Teams coming in, seem to be doing well! (WAC new additiions and Sun Belt future members).

Off season and 2014 time line will tell a lot. The landscape of FBS will change again this spring.

Maybe a penny's worth of a comment!

[ODU Oldtimer]

FCS Champion over non-BCS conference
FBS BCS conference would be the only reason to move up.

How many FCS prgrams have done that. Will never happen!

[Vitojr130]

In looking back over the last 10-15 years, I don't think there is an FCS National Champion that would have gone 4-7 in the MAC/WAC/Sun Belt/C-USA conferences. I think the more accurate question would be 'would you rather be a 7-4 playoff team or a 4-7 FBS team', which is very valid.
One thing worth noting is that it used to be much easier to make the transition from FCS to FBS. Unless it is a market-based move, you won't see any FCS teams with 10K attendance or a small athletic budget moving up. Now, any small market team that moves will do so because they have the funding, fan support and facilities to get an invite. A lot of programs struggled because they wanted to play FBS football but did not have the support structure they needed. I am obviously biased but I think that App would be positioned well because our attendance and facilities would be on par with our conference peers and in some cases, better.

Well it is hard to make a comparison like this. The reason I say this is because no matter your level of play, you can only put 11 players on the field at once. The only major difference between the FCS and the FBS is the depth to sustain an FBS schedule for an entire season. Say, for instance, NDSU had an extra 20 schollies laying around. I feel confident that NDSU would be a top contender in at least the MAC, Sun Belt, and the WAC no questions asked. A traditionally good FCS team who gets more schollies and puts them to good use could find success at the FBS level. At this point, it simply comes down to coaching and recruitment.

That's just my thoughts, though.

[ODU Oldtimer]

The nay sayers have told ODU ....it will take 10 years before you will even start to win in the CAA.

So we know the feeling of having everyone say..............you guys will never win, be successful, Go FBS! We have heard it all, and continue to….

Wish you only the best of Luck WH49er.

[ASUMountaineer]

Which would you rather be: FCS National Champions or a 4-7 FBS team? Food for thought for teams so eager to move up...for every Boise State there are 10 former FCS winners that are now FBS losers. If I were an ASU or GSU fan I'd be BEGGING them not to move up because I know we'd lose a lot more.

Perhaps ASU and GSU should drop down to DII and really win a lot. My guess is schools look to move up for similar reasons. Perhaps you could ask the WoCo brass why they moved up to I-AA.

[ASUMountaineer]

CUSA is down this year (especially USM) but every single Sunbelt team would leave for a CUSA invite.

And that has what to do with the OP's topic?

[MarkyMark]

Well it is hard to make a comparison like this. The reason I say this is because no matter your level of play, you can only put 11 players on the field at once. The only major difference between the FCS and the FBS is the depth to sustain an FBS schedule for an entire season. Say, for instance, NDSU had an extra 20 schollies laying around. I feel confident that NDSU would be a top contender in at least the MAC, Sun Belt, and the WAC no questions asked. A traditionally good FCS team who gets more schollies and puts them to good use could find success at the FBS level. At this point, it simply comes down to coaching and recruitment.

That's just my thoughts, though.

First, I would like to see NDSU win some more FCS championships. Then I would like to see a new stadium plan or Fargodome expansion plan put in place before we make any type of move.

[ASUMountaineer]

Best of luck with your invite then. Sure the good ole' boy Charlie will get it for you.

Thanks, we appreciate your continued interest in Appalachian football. xnodx

[Apphole]

And that has what to do with the OP's topic?

He's trying to entice me into a UNCC/App pissing match. I dodged it this time.

[Gil Dobie]

How many FCS prgrams have done that. Will never happen!

Never say never! :)

[frozennorth]

10 is an exaggeration but at the top of my head there's WKU, Idaho, and UMass (albeit very early) that have not been successful FBS moves for traditional FCS/D1AA powers.

wku is 4-1 this year and won the sunbelt last year... their only loss is to alabama this year

[asumike83]

Never say never! :)

Maybe West Virginia left a Mountaineer-shaped hole in the Big East's heart that only we can fill? :D

[frozennorth]

How many FCS prgrams have done that. Will never happen!

uconn

[WH49er]

He's trying to entice me into a UNCC/App pissing match. I dodged it this time.

It has nothing to do with us versus you. Historically CUSA has been a far better conference than SunBelt, that's why they have the TV contract that you speak of.

[ASUMountaineer]

He's trying to entice me into a UNCC/App pissing match. I dodged it this time.

Kudos to you.

[Saint3333]

Seems to be a fact.

Teams that are leaving CUSA are having a down year.........Teams coming in, seem to be doing well! (WAC new additiions and Sun Belt future members).

Off season and 2014 time line will tell a lot. The landscape of FBS will change again this spring.

Maybe a penny's worth of a comment!

Teams leaving CUSA:
UCF 3-2
Memphis 1-4
Houston 2-3
SMU 2-3


Teams moving to CUSA:
LA Tech 5-0
North Texas 2-4
FIU 1-5

[Apphole]

It has nothing to do with us versus you. Historically CUSA has been a far better conference than SunBelt, that's why they have the TV contract that you speak of.

Historically, yes. Times are a-changin'.

[ODU Oldtimer]

uconn

Only invited to upgrade football.

In 1997, the Big East Conference gave the University of Connecticut and Villanova University a December 31 deadline to decide if they were going to upgrade their respective football programs and join the Big East football conference.

The Huskies would spend the 2000 and 2001 as a transitional Division I-A program as they built their scholarship base to the maximum of 85. A five your transition from the original Invite.

This scenario was only because they were already in the Big East with every other sport. You are not in a FBS BCS league already...are you!

[woffordgrad94]

Perhaps ASU and GSU should drop down to DII and really win a lot. My guess is schools look to move up for similar reasons. Perhaps you could ask the WoCo brass why they moved up to I-AA.

From what I know, Wofford moved up because there were no academic standards to speak of for the athletes in Division II. Wofford has standards for their athletes, but were playing teams that had none, and the Wofford brass thought we did not fit into D-2. Going D-1 and joining the SoCon had a lot to do with academics as well as better athletics and easier scheduling (scheduling as a D-2 independent was tough). I was very opposed to the move when it happened. I never thought we'd compete at all in the SoCon for football. I wanted to stay D-2. Mike Ayers proved me wrong.

[MplsBison]

Which would you rather be: FCS National Champions or a 4-7 FBS team? Food for thought for teams so eager to move up...for every Boise State there are 10 former FCS winners that are now FBS losers. If I were an ASU or GSU fan I'd be BEGGING them not to move up because I know we'd lose a lot more.

If moving to I-A is the only way to continue growing the school's football brand and the president of the school is not a coward, then yes I-A is the correct decision.

I'd rather win a low-major bowl game than win the NCAA division I-AA post season tournament. Been there, done that - no one cared.

[ODU Oldtimer]

Teams leaving CUSA:
UCF 3-2
Memphis 1-4
Houston 2-3
SMU 2-3


Teams moving to CUSA:
LA Tech 5-0
North Texas 2-4
FIU 1-5

You left out 1 incoming UTSA 5 -0 this year
Combined 13 -13 like I said doing OK

Those leaving
Combined 8 - 12 not doing great!

[Sader87]

If moving to I-A is the only way to continue growing the school's football brand and the president of the school is not a coward, then yes I-A is the correct decision.

I'd rather win a low-major bowl game than win the NCAA division I-AA post season tournament. Been there, done that - no one cared.

The thing is, 97% of people couldn't care less about either. The only move that makes any sense is going to a BCS conference....everything below that is essentially the same in most people's eyes. Do you really think most people (besides us hearty few here) know that Western Kentucky is FBS and Eastern Kentucky is FCS for instance?

[Saint3333]

You left out 1 incoming UTSA 5 -0 this year
Combined 13 -13 like I said doing OK

Those leaving
Combined 8 - 12 not doing great!

I left out UTSA, ODU, and UNCC on purpose. You may want to look at SOS not just the records. Anyone that believes CUSA isn't much weaker losing Houston, UCF, etc. isn't paying attention. If the Sun Belt had added someone other than GA St. they would have come out of this round of expansion the winner, closing the gap considerably. Instead they followed the formula that the nBE and CUSA used to go after locations (not is the case of ODU) vs. on the field performance. You can't get a different answer cheating off someone else.

[laxVik]

Let's see...

A good move: Boise, UCF, ULM, Troy (on the fence with that one)

Possibly good move: WKU, TXST, Marshall (have done basically nada since their move)

Bad: UMass (years away from being relevant)

[MplsBison]

The thing is, 97% of people couldn't care less about either. The only move that makes any sense is going to a BCS conference....everything below that is essentially the same in most people's eyes. Do you really think most people (besides us hearty few here) know that Western Kentucky is FBS and Eastern Kentucky is FCS for instance?

Most people have only a march madness style basis of school classification knowledge.

Using such a basis would likely yield a result of "Western Kentucky is in Division I as a low-major, Eastern Kentucky is DII".

[WH49er]

Let's see...

Bad: UMass (years away from being relevant)



I would label this really bad when you include that they are playing games nearly 100 miles from campus in Foxboro.

[Apphole]

I would label this really bad when you include that they are playing games nearly 100 miles from campus in Foxboro.

Isn't that the dumbest thing ever? Especially since they have a perfectly good stadium on campus. If that program goes in the ****ter its because of the above, not the FBS move.

[Sader87]

Most people have only a march madness style basis of school classification knowledge.

Using such a basis would likely yield a result of "Western Kentucky is in Division I as a low-major, Eastern Kentucky is DII".

Not sure I follow...I think most sports fans (not most people) know that a lot more schools play D1 hoop than D1 football...they see the upsets or near upsets by small schools every year during March Madness.

I think a fairly decent amount of those same sports fans wouldn't know that Middle Tennessee St was FBS and UT-Chatty was FCS as another example. Point being, most people think that unless you're playing in one of the BCS premier conferences, you're basically not playing "major college football."

[Vitojr130]

First, I would like to see NDSU win some more FCS championships. Then I would like to see a new stadium plan or Fargodome expansion plan put in place before we make any type of move.

I wasn't suggesting making the jump immediately. I, too, would like to see some more success at this level before investing in a new stadium (we would need a higher capacity) and making the jump up.

I was simply using NDSU as a team for comparison purposes. I firmly believe that this current NDSU squad could be absolutely killer at the FBS level IF we had 20 more schollies. Without them, I fear it would be hard to run a full FBS schedule. Who knows what we might be like in 10 years, though, but given our history, I like our chances for success.

[LakesBison]

NDSU should be in the MWC or MAC. honestly.

[Gil Dobie]

NDSU should be in the MWC or MAC. honestly.

Then stay FCS, MAC and MWC have a lower self-worth than NAIA.

[crusader11]

NDSU should be in the MWC or MAC. honestly.

Can't say I disagree.

There are probably half a dozen FCS teams (off the top of my head: ODU...what year are the transitioning?, NDSU, App State, James Madison, Georgia Southern, Montana) that could easily make the transition to the FBS due to their 1) overwhelming success in FCS 2) student population 3) fan/alumni support 4) stadium size 5) endowment

[Sader87]

Can't say I disagree.

There are probably half a dozen FCS teams (off the top of my head: ODU...what year are the transitioning?, NDSU, App State, James Madison, Georgia Southern, Montana) that could easily make the transition to the FBS due to their 1) overwhelming success in FCS 2) student population 3) fan/alumni support 4) stadium size 5) endowment

Fine, I don't disagree but do you really think if you picked any random sports fan in most parts of the country and told him/her that NDSU moved from the Missouri Valley Football Conference to the Mid-American Conference, would they know that was a step up from FCS to FBS???

[ODU Oldtimer]

The thing is, 97% of people couldn't care less about either. The only move that makes any sense is going to a BCS conference....everything below that is essentially the same in most people's eyes. Do you really think most people (besides us hearty few here) know that Western Kentucky is FBS and Eastern Kentucky is FCS for instance?

How Much money are the schools in the FCS playoffs remburst from the NCAA for travel..........$0
How much do you get in a financial reward for making it to the National Championship game or winning...$0, and it may cost the school upwards of --$100,000 to get to that game!

Here is an example of a low end FBS Bowl - Little Caesars Bowl

FIU went to in 2010 Payout US $750,000

Dec 26, 2010
Sun Belt 2010 FIU
Stadium Ford Field
Location Detroit, Michigan
Attendance 32,431
Payout US $750,000 [2]
United States TV coverage Network ESPN
Est. Nielsen Ratings 1.89 share 1.600 million viewers

Date December 31, 2010
CUSA 2010 UCF
Stadium Liberty Bowl Memorial Stadium
Location Memphis, Tennessee
Attendance 51,231
Payout US $1.35 million
Est. VIEWER Nielsen Ratings 4.6 Nielsen Ratings 3.8 Million Viewers



Ok let’s see Dollars earned FCS Championship) Cost to get there EST.........-$100,000
Net gain or loss <-100,000> Just game cost

TV viewers Nielsen Ratings 1. approx. 800.000 viewers

FBS Bowl low end pay out $750,000 -$1,500,000

Finally a positive of around $500,000- $1,300,000 just a guess.

.

[Sader87]

Chump change....

[Mr. C]

UConn is the only "success story" so far, IMO. They make money in their athletics program and have also successfully protected their basketball program.

Boise State is an "incomplete" since their basketball is in neverland right now and nobody knows how the Big East will work with them. Do they have fame? Yes. Do they have the big bowl win? Yes - thanks to the BCS formula, which is now going away with plus-one. Will it continue, now that the national champion will be determined in a smoke-filled room than a formula? I think not. Are they "making money"? Absolutely not.

As for the WAC/Sun Belt/CUSA teams - where are they, again, now, after realignment? FCS? Their own money-losing subdivision?

If Boise State had been any sort of power in basketball, maybe you would have a point, but the Broncos have never been anything other than occasionally good enough to make the NCAA Tournament in hoops. It's been awhile since coach Bobby Dye was making in-roads at Boise State. It is ludicrous to think of Boise State's football move as anything other than a success, though the lightning in a bottle in that community is not likely to be caught anywhere else. In my mind, Boise State, UConn and to a lesser extent, Troy, have been about the only successes. Marshall had a handful of years at the start when it rode the success of Chad Pennington, Randy Moss and Byron Leftwich, but even a lot of Marshall fans would tell you now that the Blundering Terds made a mistake by leaving I-AA.

[Mr. C]

How Much money are the schools in the FCS playoffs remburst from the NCAA for travel..........$0
How much do you get in a financial reward for making it to the National Championship game or winning...$0, and it may cost the school upwards of --$100,000 to get to that game!

Here is an example of a low end FBS Bowl - Little Caesars Bowl

FIU went to in 2010 Payout US $750,000

Dec 26, 2010
Sun Belt 2010 FIU
Stadium Ford Field
Location Detroit, Michigan
Attendance 32,431
Payout US $750,000 [2]
United States TV coverage Network ESPN
Est. Nielsen Ratings 1.89 share 1.600 million viewers

Date December 31, 2010
CUSA 2010 UCF
Stadium Liberty Bowl Memorial Stadium
Location Memphis, Tennessee
Attendance 51,231
Payout US $1.35 million



Ok let’s see Dollars earned FCS Championship) Cost to get there EST.........-$100,000
Net gain or loss <-100,000> Just game cost

TV viewers Nielsen Ratings 1. approx. 800.000 viewers

FBS Bowl low end pay out $750,000 -$1,500,000

Finally a positive of around $500,000- $1,300,000 just a guess.

.
You need to read the book "Death to the BCS, the Definitive Case Against The Bowl Championship Series" before you go talking about bowl "payouts." You might want to ask UConn how the bowl "payout" worked for the Huskies in the Fiesta Bowl a couple of years back. The losses from bowl games are much more substantial than the losses for the FCS playoffs.

[Mr. C]

Let's see...

A good move: Boise, UCF, ULM, Troy (on the fence with that one)

Possibly good move: WKU, TXST, Marshall (have done basically nada since their move)

Bad: UMass (years away from being relevant)

One of the funniest posts ever about teams that have been "successful" by moving to FBS. You do realize that this season is about the first time Louisiana-Monroe has had anything to brag about, don't you? You do realize than no FBS team has lost more often to FCS opponents than ULM? I don't call one good year success.

[Professor Chaos]

How Much money are the schools in the FCS playoffs remburst from the NCAA for travel..........$0
How much do you get in a financial reward for making it to the National Championship game or winning...$0, and it may cost the school upwards of --$100,000 to get to that game!

Here is an example of a low end FBS Bowl - Little Caesars Bowl

FIU went to in 2010 Payout US $750,000

Dec 26, 2010
Sun Belt 2010 FIU
Stadium Ford Field
Location Detroit, Michigan
Attendance 32,431
Payout US $750,000 [2]
United States TV coverage Network ESPN
Est. Nielsen Ratings 1.89 share 1.600 million viewers

Date December 31, 2010
CUSA 2010 UCF
Stadium Liberty Bowl Memorial Stadium
Location Memphis, Tennessee
Attendance 51,231
Payout US $1.35 million
Est. VIEWER Nielsen Ratings 4.6 Nielsen Ratings 3.8 Million Viewers



Ok let’s see Dollars earned FCS Championship) Cost to get there EST.........-$100,000
Net gain or loss <-100,000> Just game cost

TV viewers Nielsen Ratings 1. approx. 800.000 viewers

FBS Bowl low end pay out $750,000 -$1,500,000

Finally a positive of around $500,000- $1,300,000 just a guess.

.
Doesn't take too much research to refute that:
College Football Winners Still Lose as Bowl Costs Exceed Payout (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-23/college-football-winners-still-lose-as-bowl-game-expenses-exceed-payout.html)
Trips to BCS bowl games can cost some schools big money (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2011-09-28/bcs-bowl-games-cost-some-schools/50582512/1)
College football programs are often losing money during their single-game postseason ventures (http://www.mndaily.com/2011/10/04/bcs-bill-how-bowl-games-cost-football-programs)
Holiday Bowl: Nebraska To Lose Money, Washington Hoping To Break Even (http://seattle.sbnation.com/washington-huskies/2010/12/16/1880838/holiday-bowl-finances-nebraska-cornhuskers-washington-huskies)
Costly kick in the teeth to bowl teams (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/17/tickets-guarantees-price-play/)

And btw, the NCAA pays for 100% of the travel costs for the road FCS playoff teams in terms of the team and athletic staff. Cheer team, bands, and additional university staff are at the expense of the school. IIRC, NDSU made over $100K in the 3 playoff games hosted last year even after cutting the check to the NCAA for their cut of the gate receipts.

Schools don't make money in FBS by going to bowls, they make money off TV contracts and bigger guarantee game money from the big boys.

[Professor Chaos]

Let's see...

A good move: Boise, UCF, ULM, Troy (on the fence with that one)

Possibly good move: WKU, TXST, Marshall (have done basically nada since their move)

Bad: UMass (years away from being relevant)

One of the funniest posts ever about teams that have been "successful" by moving to FBS. You do realize that this season is about the first time Louisiana-Monroe has had anything to brag about, don't you? You do realize than no FBS team has lost more often to FCS opponents than ULM? I don't call one good year success.
The same can be said for WKU, sure they're 4-1 this year and they were 7-5 last year. Before that they were 2-10, 0-12, and 2-10 in their first 3 years with an FBS schedule. And even in their breakthrough season last year they weren't even invited to a bowl.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

wku is 4-1 this year and won the sunbelt last year... their only loss is to alabama this year

I'm sorry, they won something last year? I wasn't paying attention. Did they lift the crystal trophy?

[ODU Oldtimer]

Doesn't take too much research to refute that:
College Football Winners Still Lose as Bowl Costs Exceed Payout (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-23/college-football-winners-still-lose-as-bowl-game-expenses-exceed-payout.html)
Trips to BCS bowl games can cost some schools big money (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2011-09-28/bcs-bowl-games-cost-some-schools/50582512/1)
College football programs are often losing money during their single-game postseason ventures (http://www.mndaily.com/2011/10/04/bcs-bill-how-bowl-games-cost-football-programs)
Holiday Bowl: Nebraska To Lose Money, Washington Hoping To Break Even (http://seattle.sbnation.com/washington-huskies/2010/12/16/1880838/holiday-bowl-finances-nebraska-cornhuskers-washington-huskies)
Costly kick in the teeth to bowl teams (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/17/tickets-guarantees-price-play/)

And btw, the NCAA pays for 100% of the travel costs for the road FCS playoff teams in terms of the team and athletic staff. Cheer team, bands, and additional university staff are at the expense of the school. IIRC, NDSU made over $100K in the 3 playoff games hosted last year even after cutting the check to the NCAA for their cut of the gate receipts.

Schools don't make money in FBS by going to bowls, they make money off TV contracts and bigger guarantee game money from the big boys.

Show me that one................. ?

[LeadBolt]

No. GA State is about to find out the hard way....

[Professor Chaos]

Show me that one................. ?
Which one? The information about travel expenses? You can find that in the Travel Information section starting on page 10 here: http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/champ_handbooks/football/2011/2011_1_football.pdf

The NCAA usually loses money on the FCS playoffs but the participating institutions don't unless they overbid for home games or go above and beyond the expenses that the NCAA does cover.

[ASUMountaineer]

From what I know, Wofford moved up because there were no academic standards to speak of for the athletes in Division II. Wofford has standards for their athletes, but were playing teams that had none, and the Wofford brass thought we did not fit into D-2. Going D-1 and joining the SoCon had a lot to do with academics as well as better athletics and easier scheduling (scheduling as a D-2 independent was tough). I was very opposed to the move when it happened. I never thought we'd compete at all in the SoCon for football. I wanted to stay D-2. Mike Ayers proved me wrong.

So, it wasn't simply about wins and losses for Wofford. Considering that, why do you assume it's simply about wins and losses for other schools wanting to move to the FBS ranks? Appalachian hired an independent company to make a recommendation that was accepted by a distinguished board. To assume that wins and losses are the only measurement for changing classifications is naive at best.

[dgtw]

He's trying to entice me into a UNCC/App pissing match. I dodged it this time.

When you wrote that positive post about UNCC earlier I thought someone had hacked your account.

[laxVik]

One of the funniest posts ever about teams that have been "successful" by moving to FBS. You do realize that this season is about the first time Louisiana-Monroe has had anything to brag about, don't you? You do realize than no FBS team has lost more often to FCS opponents than ULM? I don't call one good year success.Funny that they are or took so long? Your complaint is quite weak.

[ODU Oldtimer]

Doesn't take too much research to refute that:
College Football Winners Still Lose as Bowl Costs Exceed Payout (http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-12-23/college-football-winners-still-lose-as-bowl-game-expenses-exceed-payout.html)
Trips to BCS bowl games can cost some schools big money (http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/story/2011-09-28/bcs-bowl-games-cost-some-schools/50582512/1)
College football programs are often losing money during their single-game postseason ventures (http://www.mndaily.com/2011/10/04/bcs-bill-how-bowl-games-cost-football-programs)
Holiday Bowl: Nebraska To Lose Money, Washington Hoping To Break Even (http://seattle.sbnation.com/washington-huskies/2010/12/16/1880838/holiday-bowl-finances-nebraska-cornhuskers-washington-huskies)
Costly kick in the teeth to bowl teams (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2009/dec/17/tickets-guarantees-price-play/)

And btw, the NCAA pays for 100% of the travel costs for the road FCS playoff teams in terms of the team and athletic staff. Cheer team, bands, and additional university staff are at the expense of the school. IIRC, NDSU made over $100K in the 3 playoff games hosted last year even after cutting the check to the NCAA for their cut of the gate receipts.

Schools don't make money in FBS by going to bowls, they make money off TV contracts and bigger guarantee game money from the big boys.

NCAA Rules Handbook
Pre-Championship Manuel
Page 46 Appendix

[B]10. Arranging for lodging (at the expense of the team).

11. Arranging for transportation to and from practice and game (at the expense of the
Team

Bands/Spirit Squads/Mascots........................................... ......22
Bands/Spirit Squads/Mascots
Cheerleaders and/or pompon team members, not to exceed 12 in number, plus the mascot
shall be admitted, if in uniform, via the gate list furnished to the host institution by the
competing institution’s director of athletics; all other institutional representatives will be
admitted only upon presentation of a ticket. A maximum of 12 cheerleaders and/or pompon
team members, along with one cheerleader coach, shall be allowed on the field during the
progress of the game. The cheerleaders shall perform within an area designated by the
tournament manager.
All cheerleading squads must conform to the guidelines set by the American Association
of Cheerleader Coaches and Advisors (AACCA). Neither the NCAA nor the host institution
shall be responsible for supervising or monitoring routines performed by cheerleaders at
championship events. Except as noted in this section, supervision of cheerleading squads
and their activities, yells and stunts is solely the participating institution’s responsibility. The
participating institution shall ensure that the squad has sufficient training, supervision and
equipment for any and all routines its squad may choose to perform. Tournament managers
must inform participating institutions if the host facility has more stringent requirements. If
so, the director of athletics at each institution must apprise his or her cheerleading squad of
such requirements and ensure compliance.

Band members who are in uniform and performing at the championship will not be
charged admission to the competition. Bands, or any component thereof, are allowed to
play during time-outs, halftime, and before and after the competition. Bands are not allowed
to play during the game, once the ball is spotted and the umpire backs away from the ball.
Host institutions must make space available for the visiting team band, upon request.
It reads that 12 members of Cheerleading Team is allowed in without a PAYED Ticket
The band members I see nowhere in this NCAA Official Information about reimburse for travel


Page 11 Officials ONLY

Travel/Per DiemTravel expenses for the officials will be paid according to the actual mode of transportation, not to exceed jet coach air fare or 50 cents per mile, but not including terminal or other
local transportation. Officials who receive approval for air transportation must make flight
arrangements through the NCAA travel service, Short’s Travel Management, 866/821-8547.
Hotel expenses (excluding incidentals) for officials required to stay overnight at the
championship site shall be paid by the host institution. Officials will receive a $45 per diem
for meals and incidentals for each day of the championship, beginning with the day of
arrival and ending with the day of departure. Officials not required to remain overnight at
the site also shall receive a per diem of $45.
Officials Championship Expense Reimbursement
The NCAA and Short’s Travel Management will be responsible for scheduling and direct
billing air travel expenses for the game officials. They will also arrange and direct bill rental car
expenses via Enterprise Rent-a-Car or National Rental Car. The host institution should secure
and be direct billed for the lodging for all seven game officials. New for 2011-12 the host institution
should budget for officials lodging as part of their budgeted expenses in their proposed budget..
NCAA staff will be responsible for all other official expenses, which include game fee
($450), per diem ($45 per day), transportation between their home and the game site in
their personal automobile ($.50 per mile, only if the official did not fly) and any rental car

Show me if I am missing something! Thanks

[Professor Chaos]

Show me if I am missing something! Thanks
Sorry, it's page 11 of the PDF, not of the doc itself. It's page 19 of according to the page numbers in the doc. Here's the entire section I was referring to:


Travel Information
[Reference: Per Diem and Transportation in the Division I General Section.]
During the championships institutions that are playing within 400 miles (one-way) of their campus will be required to travel to that site via a bus. Institutions traveling more than 400 miles (one-way) to their game will be approved for air travel to that site. All air travel arrangements will be made via Short’s Travel Management.

Arrival Times at Playoff Sites. Participating institutions in first-round, second-round, quarterfinal and semifinal round games shall arrive not later than the established practice time the day before competition.
Lodging. The host institution or sponsoring agency shall make local reservations for the competing teams and advise them of the arrangements. Each competing institution is obligated to confirm or cancel the accommodations. An institution is not obligated to stay at the designated property; however, it is responsible for canceling its reservations and then securing its own accommodations.
Transportation. Please refer to NCAA travel policies for all information regarding transportation and per diem expenses. Travel policies can be found online at http://tinyurl.com/ncaafbtravel
Travel Party. Transportation expenses and a $120 per diem will be provided for each member of the travel party. The size of the travel party is 130 persons for the firstround, second-round, quarterfinal and semifinal contests, including a maximum of 60 student-athletes in uniform.
Expense Reimbursement Form. Expense forms with instructions will be available online (http://tinyurl/ncaafbtravel). Forms can be mailed to the director of athletics of each competing institution, if they are unable to be accessed via the Web site. Please contact the NCAA travel department at the national office (317-917-6222; e-mail: [email protected]) to receive hard copies of the form. Completed forms must be received at the NCAA national office within 30 days of competition.

[ODU Oldtimer]

Thanks........

[49RFootballNow]

Its a resources question. Does a school have enough alumni, funding, student body, ect.... to support a move to FBS? Does the conference they're moving to have a lucrative TV contract? When the school has the answers to those questions then they have the answer of when or if to move up.

[Sader87]

If any school wants to go for it (FBS), good for them. I will say, I'm a pretty big college football fan (FBS and FCS alike) and I have watched very, very few league games between schools from the C-USA, Mountain West, Sun-Belt or the MAC leagues during the past decade. I doubt I'm alone in saying that.

[lmckay92]

Let's see...

A good move: Boise, UCF, ULM, Troy (on the fence with that one)

Possibly good move: WKU, TXST, Marshall (have done basically nada since their move)

Bad: UMass (years away from being relevant)

Waiiiiiiit. Which move are you talking about? If you mean since 1997, we've got a trophy case to show you. If you mean since 2005, we've been incredibly mediocre but still have two bowl wins.

As for moving up to FBS, from a Marshall perspective it's been a good transition. We still have some old timers talking about how much they miss the Southern Conference and all that but if it comes to any conference over CUSA, it's definitely the MAC. In CUSA we make 10x the money we had in the MAC and I honestly would rather be associated with Southern Miss and East Carolina than Toledo and Western Michigan. I think the move has been positive for us and that we're definitely competitive at this level. FCS is cool, but the SoCon isn't what it was in the 90s and I can't see any other conference being a good fit for us.

[Saint3333]

I can it would be a combo of CUSA, Belt, and a couple FCS programs.

[ASU_Fanatic]

I'm confident we will become competitive in the SBC fairly quickly, especially compared to the decade of 0-fer seasons that startups like GaST and UNCC will have. I'm also ready for more exposure, more money for facility enhancements, and above all FBS OUT OF CONFERENCE HOME GAMES WITH ECU, Wake and eventually State or Carolina.Last part is the main reason I want to move to FBS. I really think App could be competitive in each of the SBC, MAC and C-USA which are the possibilities right now

[Yank]

There can be exceptions to the NCAA paying travel and per diem for members of the playoff traveling party. If a school's AD and head coach think that they are too important to attend the official NCAA pre-game meeting and send lowly assistants instead, the NCAA not only will refuse to pay their travel and per diem but will also fine them. Case in point, ODU at their 2011 playoff game at GSU.

[dgtw]

Isn't that the dumbest thing ever? Especially since they have a perfectly good stadium on campus. If that program goes in the ****ter its because of the above, not the FBS move.

Even worse is that they are in the MAC. So they'll be playing 100 miles from campus against a bunch of teams people in Massachusetts have no familiarity with that are several hundred miles away. They wouldn not have been a bad pickup for the Big East. They have decent basketball history and bring the Boston market. UConn has grown into a decent program in the BE, UMass could have as well. A schedule of teams hundreds of miles away people have never heard of is not going to excite the few college football fans that exist in Massachusetts.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Its a resources question. Does a school have enough alumni, funding, student body, ect.... to support a move to FBS? Does the conference they're moving to have a lucrative TV contract? When the school has the answers to those questions then they have the answer of when or if to move up.

If you are in a BCS conference, you have a lucrative TV contract. If you're in CUSA/Sun Belt/MAC/Mountain West, you don't. That has not stopped people from moving up, however. It's more how fooled the administration/alumni/fans are that they have the resources or will get the payouts.

[ngineer]

I am torn on this issue. I love to watch a winning team.......but I also feel JMU has outgrown FCS.

FCS for us until we can get like minded schools to form a new EC conference.

I'm reminded of someone who was referred to as a legend in his own mind. If JMU was an NCAA champion for 5 straight years at the FCS level, then there might be something to consider. JMU has not dominated the FCS, so how can one say they have "outgrown" the division???

[walliver]

My feeling is that this "move up" attitude is based on "branding", not football.

There is no "big money" for teams moving up (with a very few exceptions). The real reason for moving up is that fans and school administrators equate a school's reputation with its athletic status. There is a perception that FBS schools are better than FCS schools, which are better than D2 schools, etc.

The fact that many of the country's best schools play athletics at the FCS (and even d3) level is lost.

I personally think that any school should be allowed to participate at any level they can afford. If Ohio State and its 100,000 students want to play D3 that's fine. If Spartanburg Community College wants to field a FBS football time that's fine also (stupid, but fine).

Much of the current "FBS mania" is driven by the fact that the big-time wannabes like C-USA and SBC are doing everything they can to keep new schools out of FBS, unless it fits their particular needs (the SEC, Big 10, Big 12, ACC, and PAC-12 couldn't care less).

[Sader87]

Nobody wants to hear it but outside of their own fan-base, there are very few people around the country who are dying to see Montana, Appalachian St, JMU, Georgia Southern, North Dakota St et. al. play on a weekly basis on CBS, NBC, ESPN etc.

[Vitojr130]

Nobody wants to hear it but outside of their own fan-base, there are very few people around the country who are dying to see Montana, Appalachian St, JMU, Georgia Southern, North Dakota St et. al. play on a weekly basis on CBS, NBC, ESPN etc.

Well of course no one outside the fan-base wants to see a freshly transistioned FCS to FBS team. But the same could be said about any team ever. Honestly, I could care less how LSU does. Why? Because I'm not in their fan-base. The whole point of the FBS transition is for money and publicity. You won't increase your fan-base without media. Joe-schmoe in Washington, D.C. won't know he likes the Bison until he watches them dominate on ESPN. And how do you get that lucrative ESPN contract? You play with the big boys.

Still, I want to win a few more natty champs first.

[Doc QB]

If some combination of JMU, Liberty, UDel, App, GSU, Jax State, ODU, etc form a new conference, playing each other and a handful of reach games, how is that much different than what you have now with those schools being FCS and playing a few money games? How much different is it than pre-1978 before Division I-AA was created, and although not labeled, there was still a divide between the real big programs and the smaller ones? Nothing will change except eligibility for a lower tier bowl game, the remote possibility of playing in a big one in an exceptional, once in a generation season? While schools dream of investing more to move up to FBS, to play at the highest level, the biggest of the best in SEC, Big 10, Pac-12 etc are not going to remain stagnant...they will be improving and investing more money as well, keeping the divide, essentially, the same. Not much really changes except labels, ones that most, everyday football fans dont grasp now and never will, regardless of what 'division' within which you compete.

So really, why move?

[ODU Oldtimer]

[QUOTE=Doc QB;1863114] , ODU, etc QUOTE]


ODU is joining CUSA. The others could but sorry......we have made a decision to go in CUSA.
This will be exciting.....no telling where it will lead us. I feel it was the right time and decision for us. Each school has different needs and factors to consider.

Example We have over 15,000 seats to be sold from our waiting list to try and see the games. (4,500 on list request an average of 3 per order) Nice problem to have! We only can hold 20,000 at the present time.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/10/waiting-list-odu-football-good-luck

[ysubigred]

It's not always about the football program. WKU left 1FCS because they wanted the basketball programs in a better position/conference.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

[QUOTE=Doc QB;1863114] , ODU, etc QUOTE]


ODU is joining CUSA. The others could but sorry......we have made a decision to go in CUSA.
This will be exciting.....no telling where it will lead us. I feel it was the right time and decision for us. Each school has different needs and factors to consider.

Example We have over 15,000 seats to be sold from our waiting list to try and see the games. (4,500 on list request an average of 3 per order) Nice problem to have! We only can hold 20,000 at the present time.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/10/waiting-list-odu-football-good-luck

I look forward to ODU paying 200k for NDSU to come in and beat them.

[appfan2008]

I have taken an odd approach to this issue at ASU, I will root for ASU wherever we play... i dont care what level just win the games on the schedule... i see benefits to both levels...

[ODU Oldtimer]

ODU is joining CUSA. The others could but sorry......we have made a decision to go in CUSA.
This will be exciting.....no telling where it will lead us. I feel it was the right time and decision for us. Each school has different needs and factors to consider.

A few factors that made or decision easier were the following........for a move up to FBS.

We will need to expand the stadium obviously...........looking at 35,000-40,000 with future expansion to around 50,000.
1st phase is estimated at 65 -100 million. The new income from ticket sales, concessions, licensed Items and souvenirs will add approximately 750,000 per 6 home games A potential income around 4,500,000 for football season.


We raised 20,000,000 in private funds for the upgrade of Forman field 5 years ago.

When we built our basketball arena, "The Ted". we raised 45 million. That was 10 years ago ....all private donations.

We had and have private donors that have already given 6 million to build a new men's and women’s basketball practice facility with a new hall of fame center! Again all private donations.

Raised 3 million in 2 weeks when the University announced move up to CUSA Private Donors. (Now over 4 million)

Just found out that we have two private Doners that look to help with the expansion of Forman field that will come close to 1/3 of the funds. (around 30,000,000) We will needed 30 - 70 million more for the expansion. Presently planning for the 2014 season.

ODU is very fortunate to have fantastic support from Alumni and the Community.

Every School has to do what they feel is best for them. FBS move up is what the Community and University envision for ODU's future.

[ODU Oldtimer]

[QUOTE=ODU Oldtimer;1863136]

I look forward to ODU paying 200k for NDSU to come in and beat them.

I appreciate what you are saying and there is no doubt NDSU is a fantastic program. Our AD has had several interviews and press conferences on our next two year scheduling. Next year our goal is to try and have home games with Regional, Mid-Atlantic or East Coast connections. All will be FCS next year for home games. Our away games will all be FBS......There have been speculations but at this time no rumors or leaks as to who they may be.

2014 It looks like nine games are already in stone with dates and times to be announced.

Southern Miss. Marshall, UAB, ECU, UNCC, Rice, Tulane, La Tech and either UTEP or UTSA. I think we will play GA. State as well

I am looking forward to all this...........and maybe some day.

You never know maybe ODU and NDSU will play this year. I am sure you guys will be there in the NC game. I hope we will make it as well.

Thanks

[BEAR]

No. It's too expensive for some schools.


...yes, I'm moving these topics up to move one down. xlolx

[WUTNDITWAA]

You know. This board has been around for, what, 10 years? I don't ever recall having a thread about this.xrolleyesx

[49RFootballNow]

If you are in a BCS conference, you have a lucrative TV contract. If you're in CUSA/Sun Belt/MAC/Mountain West, you don't. That has not stopped people from moving up, however. It's more how fooled the administration/alumni/fans are that they have the resources or will get the payouts.

Well that depends, if said school has no TV exposure and no TV money, then even SBC and MAC TV contracts can seem lucrative. The current CUSA contract puts $7M in University pockets, that's a lot better than nothing.

[darell1976]

If it means ending up in a who gives a **** bowl then I would rather take the FCS National Title every time. If you can get lucky and get into a BCS conference then sure FBS is the way to go. But to end up like Idaho, or Eastern Michigan...no thanks. Hopefully the FBS will be tweaked by the time UND thinks about moving up (IMO roughly 10-20 years).

[KAUMASS]

Even worse is that they are in the MAC. So they'll be playing 100 miles from campus against a bunch of teams people in Massachusetts have no familiarity with that are several hundred miles away. They wouldn not have been a bad pickup for the Big East. They have decent basketball history and bring the Boston market. UConn has grown into a decent program in the BE, UMass could have as well. A schedule of teams hundreds of miles away people have never heard of is not going to excite the few college football fans that exist in Massachusetts.

After watching the transition so far, I would say the answer to this question is it really depends on what the school is trying to accomplish. UMass's move to FBS was a combo of factors, but the primary initial facto was to lose less money than in FCS. That will be accomplished. The MAC was the only option on the table for us at the time, or possibly de-emphasize football. Our record the last 3 years in FCS was not great, we would have a hard time in the CAA this year if we stayed and probably been 3-5'ish in conference play. This was definately not one of best timed moves to FBS talent wise for us. Yes, we would like to be in the Big East geographically, but we only had the MAC as an option. We are not losing any money playing at Gillette, so that will continue through the next few years. Our campus stadium is being renovated over the next few years for MAC play for a few games a season, but would not be able to host a BCS school. Those will always stay at Gillette. Yeah, it sucks for students, but students really didn't come out in huge droves to support the team when games were on campus anyhow. So, no real loss there.

I would tend to think that schools like App St, UD, JMU, Georgia Southern, Montana, North Dakota State would be a good fit for move ups. Good solid fan base, stadium close or at FBS lower to mid-tier level already. On campus as well. Main key is the conference invite.

If UMass was to stay in the MAC and at best play in the Idaho Potato Bowl in late December or get to play for an NC in FCS, I personally would rather see FCS as a fan. Wasn't an option though. If we end up in the Big East in a few years and it is still is a BCS conference, then it will have been worth it going 1-23 in the first two years of our transition to FBS. It's a tough road, but scheduling also plays a huge part. We chose 4 BCS OOC schools out of the gate. No other school moving up has done that. We grabbed the money and the *** whipping and are running as fast as we can with it. Tough to run with your *** hurting though.

[jonmac]

If it means ending up in a who gives a **** bowl then I would rather take the FCS National Title every time. If you can get lucky and get into a BCS conference then sure FBS is the way to go. But to end up like Idaho, or Eastern Michigan...no thanks. Hopefully the FBS will be tweaked by the time UND thinks about moving up (IMO roughly 10-20 years).

I think some of us have forgotten that the FBS/BCS is already being tweaked. The BCS will be no more in '14-'15. That's when the 4 team playoff starts. I don't think it will be long before the NCAA adds teams to the "playoff", it's really a tournament and not a true playoff. Not that there will be much more of a chance for the upstarts and move-ups to win it all but there will be more of a chance that the current system.

[LeadBolt]

ODU is joining CUSA. The others could but sorry......we have made a decision to go in CUSA.
This will be exciting.....no telling where it will lead us. I feel it was the right time and decision for us. Each school has different needs and factors to consider.

A few factors that made or decision easier were the following........for a move up to FBS.

We will need to expand the stadium obviously...........looking at 35,000-40,000 with future expansion to around 50,000.
1st phase is estimated at 65 -100 million. The new income from ticket sales, concessions, licensed Items and souvenirs will add approximately 750,000 per 6 home games A potential income around 4,500,000 for football season.


We raised 20,000,000 in private funds for the upgrade of Forman field 5 years ago.

When we built our basketball arena, "The Ted". we raised 45 million. That was 10 years ago ....all private donations.

We had and have private donors that have already given 6 million to build a new men's and women’s basketball practice facility with a new hall of fame center! Again all private donations.

Raised 3 million in 2 weeks when the University announced move up to CUSA Private Donors. (Now over 4 million)

Just found out that we have two private Doners that look to help with the expansion of Forman field that will come close to 1/3 of the funds. (around 30,000,000) We will needed 30 - 70 million more for the expansion. Presently planning for the 2014 season.

ODU is very fortunate to have fantastic support from Alumni and the Community.

Every School has to do what they feel is best for them. FBS move up is what the Community and University envision for ODU's future.

No doubt FBS is a good move for ODU. CUSA seems like a good fit.

[Professor Chaos]

I think some of us have forgotten that the FBS/BCS is already being tweaked. The BCS will be no more in '14-'15. That's when the 4 team playoff starts. I don't think it will be long before the NCAA adds teams to the "playoff", it's really a tournament and not a true playoff. Not that there will be much more of a chance for the upstarts and move-ups to win it all but there will be more of a chance that the current system.
The NCAA has no control over the playoff. That is entirely in control of the BCS (or whatever you want to call it) conference comissioners and the AD of Notre Dame and therefore, by proxy, it is in the hands of the presidents of those schools. I think it's more likely that those conferences break away from the mid-major FBS leagues and form a new subdivision than it is they give a bigger slice of the pie to those mid-major leagues by adding more playoff spots.

[darell1976]

The NCAA has no control over the playoff. That is entirely in control of the BCS (or whatever you want to call it) conference comissioners and the AD of Notre Dame and therefore, by proxy, it is in the hands of the presidents of those schools. I think it's more likely that those conferences break away from the mid-major FBS leagues and form a new subdivision than it is they give a bigger slice of the pie to those mid-major leagues by adding more playoff spots.

So at the DI level you could have a 3 tier playoff...BCS, the rest of the FBS and the FCS. If it goes to that then I would like UND to move up when they can (10-20yrs). No hurry now like Georgia State, or Texas State. It may be fine for them but I wouldn't want UND becoming the next Idaho.

[Professor Chaos]

So at the DI level you could have a 3 tier playoff...BCS, the rest of the FBS and the FCS. If it goes to that then I would like UND to move up when they can (10-20yrs). No hurry now like Georgia State, or Texas State. It may be fine for them but I wouldn't want UND becoming the next Idaho.
At that point its speculation on top of speculation but that's a scenario where I could see a massive amount of movement out of the upper tier FCS schools to try to get a spot at the dance with the Tulsas and Nevadas of the world.

[ASUMountaineer]

If it means ending up in a who gives a **** bowl then I would rather take the FCS National Title every time. If you can get lucky and get into a BCS conference then sure FBS is the way to go. But to end up like Idaho, or Eastern Michigan...no thanks. Hopefully the FBS will be tweaked by the time UND thinks about moving up (IMO roughly 10-20 years).

That's what's so interesting about the FBS vs. FCS dichotomy. In the FCS, it's the postseason that matters. In the FBS, it's the regular season that matters. If you can never get over that, you'll never be supportive of an FBS move.

With that said, there are a myriad of reasons why schools seek to move to the FBS. And, being successful with wins and losses and competing for national championships are usually not the top reasons (though they may be for some delusional fans). East Carolina knows it will most likely never play for a national championship, and maybe never a major bowl (currently called BCS bowls). But, I can assure you that no one in the AD's office, the BOT, administration, or fans/alumni would support moving to the FCS so that they can play for national championships. It's a different mindset when it comes to FBS football. Schools contemplating the decision to move will never satisfy everyone, but they have to do what they think is in the best interest of the entire school.

[ASUMountaineer]

No doubt FBS is a good move for ODU. CUSA seems like a good fit.

Agreed.

[LakesBison]

NDSU is #37 in sagarin. So absolutely they would be a great mountain west or mac team and it would be the right move

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No doubt FBS is a good move for ODU. CUSA seems like a good fit.


Agreed.

They are sacrificing their basketball program on the altar of football. Moving to CUSA does not solidify their basketball program and removes any sort of regional rivalries they developed over decades in the CAA. People try to tell me that replacing VCU with Southern Miss will still allow the same level of interest from fans, but I'm not so sure. Rivalries are much more important than people think.

They are also hoping that CUSA remains enough of a player on the national scene in both basketball and football to remain relevant. There are plenty of doubts as to whether will ever happen.

And they will be increasing spending astronomically to this end in order make this gamble. Their travel budget will, conservatively, double in CUSA in football alone. Upgrading the stadium(s) will be very expensive. And that's before scholarship money.

Will it be a "good move"? Time will tell, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as you think.

[ASUMountaineer]

They are sacrificing their basketball program on the altar of football. Moving to CUSA does not solidify their basketball program and removes any sort of regional rivalries they developed over decades in the CAA. People try to tell me that replacing VCU with Southern Miss will still allow the same level of interest from fans, but I'm not so sure. Rivalries are much more important than people think.

They are also hoping that CUSA remains enough of a player on the national scene in both basketball and football to remain relevant. There are plenty of doubts as to whether will ever happen.

And they will be increasing spending astronomically to this end in order make this gamble. Their travel budget will, conservatively, double in CUSA in football alone. Upgrading the stadium(s) will be very expensive. And that's before scholarship money.

Will it be a "good move"? Time will tell, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as you think.

Do you know what I think? He said "CUSA seems like a good fit," and I agree with him. That doesn't sound "cut and dried." In fact, it clearly sounds much more like your statement of "time will tell." Either your reading comprehension took the day off, or your arrogance is showing again.

Neither LeadBolt or myself were speaking in "cut and dried" statements. We all know how you feel about schools moving to an FBS conference, but not everyone shares your opinion (or is it cut and dried knowledge?).

Given your knowledge in such areas, you should provide consulting services to these schools so that they aren't continually fleeced by the incompetent consultants they've hired and the administrative officials making these decisions. That, may be "cut and dried."

[fatmonarch]

They are sacrificing their basketball program on the altar of football. Moving to CUSA does not solidify their basketball program and removes any sort of regional rivalries they developed over decades in the CAA. People try to tell me that replacing VCU with Southern Miss will still allow the same level of interest from fans, but I'm not so sure. Rivalries are much more important than people think.

They are also hoping that CUSA remains enough of a player on the national scene in both basketball and football to remain relevant. There are plenty of doubts as to whether will ever happen.

And they will be increasing spending astronomically to this end in order make this gamble. Their travel budget will, conservatively, double in CUSA in football alone. Upgrading the stadium(s) will be very expensive. And that's before scholarship money.

Will it be a "good move"? Time will tell, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as you think.


We really aren't sacrificing too much with basketball. The new CAA is worse than the new CUSA as far as basketball goes. VCU is in the A10 now, but we will still play them every year. That leaves us missing Gmu, Jmu, and W&M. Honestly, I never really got excited by playing JMU and W&M for basketball. JMU hasn't been competitive in conference for years and W&M has a good season every 3 or 4 years, but otherwise they are awful. So we lose GMU. I'm willing to sacrifice two exciting games for a better conference overall.

[ODU Oldtimer]

They are sacrificing their basketball program on the altar of football. Moving to CUSA does not solidify their basketball program and removes any sort of regional rivalries they developed over decades in the CAA. People try to tell me that replacing VCU with Southern Miss will still allow the same level of interest from fans, but I'm not so sure. Rivalries are much more important than people think.

They are also hoping that CUSA remains enough of a player on the national scene in both basketball and football to remain relevant. There are plenty of doubts as to whether will ever happen.

And they will be increasing spending astronomically to this end in order make this gamble. Their travel budget will, conservatively, double in CUSA in football alone. Upgrading the stadium(s) will be very expensive. And that's before scholarship money.

Will it be a "good move"? Time will tell, but it's not nearly as cut and dried as you think.


Thank you for your response.

I have been able to attend a few AD and Foundation Club meetings, just looking in from the outside. I think ODU has a vision not only short term (4-8 years). They are looking at a larger picture. They must get ready for what the climate and landscaping of the future of College Athletics will become.

Many of the comments that have been made on this board are the same sentiments that many ODU Alumni and supporters share. I honestly feel that no one can look into a crystal ball and predict what will happen in the near and not so near future. ODU made a choice, a statement.... that we will be aggressive and proactive in molding our future. Always on the table is funding, growth, diversity, educational resources and future expansion. ODU, is aggressive on all the above mentioned, as well. Projections to increase full time student enrollment in the next 10 years is estimated to be about a 17% -20% (Undergrad and Grad Programs). Our current enrollment, 25,000 students, at present is expected to increase to around 30,000. We have just received a large financial endowment and art contribution from the Chrysler family for an on campus Museum. This will house many of the world’s most renowned paintings and art (the collection is owned by W.P. Chrysler). The University is in a small debate about a regional partnership to study and merge with a local Medical School. (W & M just entered into the picture as well).

We have expanded and currently have 3 satellite campuses; (enrollment numbers do not include those new satellite schools).

As for athletics I think ODU's vision cannot be achieved in the next 10 years without these first baby steps. Remember it was only 4 years ago we started Football.

Step 1). We had to aggressively market the program.

Step 2). Reach out to a community to embrace what the University was doing.

Step 4) Strive to achieve. The best program, staff, facilities, and vision, so all could feel included in this new adventure. (with in the resources that we had available)

Step 5) Help solidify a vision for the University and community that could be attainable.


I must say it was a surprise, but welcomed by most.....when CUSA approached us about joining, (because of the loss of 4 strong programs). So now this opportunity became available. (We also had to take into consideration what was happening with VCU and Geo Mason, in the CAA). This made our decision easier.

***Remember ODU signed a contract that pays a 2 mill entrance fee to get in.... and an exit fee of 10 mill (if we leave before ten years and I believe after that 6 - 7 million). So the decision is a long term, short depending on your prospective)

However ODU's larger picture is to position itself for the future. I applaud them for the vision, creating opportunities, and smart and concise planning. .

Finally, I do think that Football is driving the bus, but our basketball programs (Men & Women). They will prosper and grow in this long race to achieve the best for Old Dominion University..... overall.

*We also had to consider the needs of a nationally ranked women's field hockey team, nationally ranked wrestling program, nationally rank men’s soccer program, nationally ranked sailing and rowing program and other sports as well.

I wish the best not only for our program but for all the schools facing these choices, regardless of the direction and decisions that each School makes they must look at the ultimate goal of achieving the best for their school.

"Aim High"

[DJnva]

There can be exceptions to the NCAA paying travel and per diem for members of the playoff traveling party. If a school's AD and head coach think that they are too important to attend the official NCAA pre-game meeting and send lowly assistants instead, the NCAA not only will refuse to pay their travel and per diem but will also fine them. Case in point, ODU at their 2011 playoff game at GSU.

Of course, they didn't blow it off because they thought they were too important, but it makes a better story when you say that. Wilder "blew it off" because the team was staying an hour away from the meeting site and thought too much time away from his team would be detrimental to the team.

The NCAA was so appalled it levied a fine of $1000.

[Yank]

Of course, they didn't blow it off because they thought they were too important, but it makes a better story when you say that. Wilder "blew it off" because the team was staying an hour away from the meeting site and thought too much time away from his team would be detrimental to the team.

The NCAA was so appalled it levied a fine of $1000.

Is that why he spent the evening with the ODU boosters and fans that had traveled to the game?

[DJnva]

Is that why he spent the evening with the ODU boosters and fans that had traveled to the game?

That was the AD. I could really care less as to what the AD does.


Selig and Wilder were expected to attend a mandatory administrative meeting the night before the Monarchs' game in Statesboro, Ga. However, Old Dominion's travel party elected to stay the night in Savannah, Ga., which is nearly an hour's drive away.

Wilder chose to continue preparing his team while Selig opted to entertain a number of prominent ODU donors rather than attend a meeting at which ODU was represented by other administrators.

Again, who cares? Do you actually think this is some kind of big scandal? Judging by the fact that in 2 years you have 7 posts and 2 are about this maybe you do. This is the NCAA equivalent of a speeding ticket.

[Mr. C]

Of course, they didn't blow it off because they thought they were too important, but it makes a better story when you say that. Wilder "blew it off" because the team was staying an hour away from the meeting site and thought too much time away from his team would be detrimental to the team.

The NCAA was so appalled it levied a fine of $1000.

Almost ALL teams stay in Savannah when they travel to Georgia Southern for a game and no one else has blown off the mandatory meetings. The way the meeting are normally set up is for the people that need to be there to do the meeting either before the normal stadium walk-through for the team, or after the walk-through. Saying that your coach needed to drive an hour away from the meeting site is disingenuous.

One example I can tell you about was when Villanova played at Appalachian in the 2010 quarterfinals. Villanova did its walk-through and the team traveled by bus to Banner Elk, where most visiting teams stay (45 minutes away if traffic is good). Talley and the others that needed to be there stayed around an extra hour, spending the time sipping hot cocoa in the ASU student union.

[DJnva]

From what I understand, the NCAA scheduled the meeting hours after ODU would have finished the walk-through and it would have meant the head coach was away from the team a lot more than an hour.

ODU was represented at the meeting, just not by the head coach.