Sheridan Poll

[lucchesicourt]

What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation. Personally, I don't think it matters what the ethnicity of a college is. There are football players and there are non football players. Maybe, someone can explain why it exists. It may have had a time when it was necessary, but isn't it time segregation stopped.

[BLUE TIGER]

What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation. Personally, I don't think it matters what the ethnicity of a college is. There are football players and there are non football players. Maybe, someone can explain why it exists. It may have had a time when it was necessary, but isn't it time segregation stopped.

Yes I agree that we don't need it and we should measure ourselves against all universities in the nation.

[lucchesicourt]

I think by having a separate poll, it seems like they are saying, predominantly black universities aren't as good as predominantly white universities, and I happen to believe that's hogwash. I attended a predominantly black high school ( I am white) and we were ranked second in the nation among all high schools at the time. There was a lot of pride in our football team back then. When you match yourself up with the best, compete with the best, and win there is much more esteem brought to the school and individuals of the team.

[tsutiger]

What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation. Personally, I don't think it matters what the ethnicity of a college is. There are football players and there are non football players. Maybe, someone can explain why it exists. It may have had a time when it was necessary, but isn't it time segregation stopped.

Personally, I have no problem with the poll. The question I have is why are their so many people against it? The poll exist because at one time PWC would not play HBCU's. Even after segragation it was rare for PWC to schedule HBCU's. I don't think the poll should stop because we now play PWC.

As far as your comment "isn't it time segregation stopped". Ask your school what are they doing to recruit african american students who are not athletes?

[TexasTerror]

I have no problem with the poll...

Not a big fan of a HBCU national championship, a subject we've discussed before. That's a more mythical national title than even that of the Bowl Championship Series championship!

Everyone can have a poll, heck even Pete's Weekly has one that can tickle our funny bone. The question is...the credibility you give to a poll. Who's voting? Do the poll results that come out seem legit?

[lucchesicourt]

What a school does to recruit minorities is usally based on admission standards. My particular school, UCD, has a minority admissions program to recruit minorities. UCD did not offer athletic schollies (only academic schollies and grants in aid to qualified students_this usually amounted to 5 schollies) at ALL until we went to D1AA.
Maybe you heard of the Alan Bakke case about 30 years ago, challenging the minority admissions program at UCD as reverse discrimination?

[PantherMan]

What a school does to recruit minorities is usally based on admission standards. My particular school, UCD, has a minority admissions program to recruit minorities. UCD did not offer athletic schollies (only academic schollies and grants in aid to qualified students_this usually amounted to 5 schollies) at ALL until we went to D1AA.
Maybe you heard of the Alan Bakke case about 30 years ago, challenging the minority admissions program at UCD as reverse discrimination?

A quick history lesson the Backe case...this type of thing probably still goes on at a lot of universities...people just don't stand up to them like this guy...
http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/963/Bakke_case_ruled_by_Supreme_Court

Anyways, back on topic. I think that the HBCUs can have all the polls that they want, but this type of thing just furthers the gap between HBCUs and the rest of IAA/college football. I mean Hampton was the top HBCU last year, hands down; and look what happened to them in the playoffs? I just hope that they weren't striving to be the top HBCU and forgetting the fact that they were IAA. This type of poll is similar to a midmajor poll for Division 1 basketball; it is made to somehow reward mediocrity. Of course, I feel the same way about the polls for the "mid-major IAAs" as well.:twocents:

[AppGuy04]

I think that the HBCUs can have all the polls that they want, but this type of thing just furthers the gap between HBCUs and the rest of IAA/college football.

Completely agree. Polls are just polls. The Sheridan poll means absolutely nothing to me. If a poll does not list all teams eligible to play football, then it is a flawed poll.

[SoCon48]

What a school does to recruit minorities is usally based on admission standards. My particular school, UCD, has a minority admissions program to recruit minorities. UCD did not offer athletic schollies (only academic schollies and grants in aid to qualified students_this usually amounted to 5 schollies) at ALL until we went to D1AA.
Maybe you heard of the Alan Bakke case about 30 years ago, challenging the minority admissions program at UCD as reverse discrimination?

Recruiting/admitting minority students is one thing, but allowing them to have lower standards for admissions is another. Same would go for an HBCU admitting lesser qualified white students. The Bakke case was about minority setting aside a certain number of minority slots and to fill them UC-D had to accept applicants whose test scores were lower than Bakke.Recruiting minority students does not have to involve lowering standards whether it be at a pre-dominantly white or an HBCU.

[Tribe4SF]

Winning the Sheridan Poll is much like winning the the Lambert Cup or Trophy. It's only important to those involved. If anyone argues that the Sheridan Poll should be done away with, they should also argue to end the Lambert.

[SoCon48]

Completely agree. Polls are just polls. The Sheridan poll means absolutely nothing to me. If a poll does not list all teams eligible to play football, then it is a flawed poll.
You're right, it is flawed regarding comparison to all schools, but if the HBCU's want to measure how they stack up vs just other HBCU's. Fine.

[AppGuy04]

You're right, it is flawed regarding comparison to all schools, but if the HBCU's want to measure how they stack up vs just other HBCU's. Fine.

Exactly, which is why it means nothing to the average fan ouside of the HBCU's. I have no problem with them seeing how they stack up against each other, but when they try to crown a "National Champion" thats a crock.

[Tribe4SF]

Exactly, which is why it means nothing to the average fan ouside of the HBCU's. I have no problem with them seeing how they stack up against each other, but when they try to crown a "National Champion" thats a crock.

It's not a "crock", it's the HBCU National Champion. They include all HBCUs, not just I-AA, and it's their deal. They don't "try" to crown a national champ...they do it. If you don't care about it, then don't pay any attention to it.

[MACHIAVELLI]

I think that the HBCUs can have all the polls that they want, but this type of thing just furthers the gap between HBCUs and the rest of IAA/college football. I mean Hampton was the top HBCU last year, hands down; and look what happened to them in the playoffs?

Question:
Why was Hampton clearly the best HBCU program in 2005?
Answer:
Only because they got an automatic bid and were in the playoffs.


Get over yourselves.

[AppGuy04]

It's not a "crock", it's the HBCU National Champion. They include all HBCUs, not just I-AA, and it's their deal. They don't "try" to crown a national champ...they do it. If you don't care about it, then don't pay any attention to it.

I don't, and I won't

[jstate83]

:deadhorse: ........................xcoffeex

[tsutiger]

Winning the Sheridan Poll is much like winning the the Lambert Cup or Trophy. It's only important to those involved. If anyone argues that the Sheridan Poll should be done away with, they should also argue to end the Lambert.

:hurray:

Thank you. It's not that hard.

[tsutiger]

Exactly, which is why it means nothing to the average fan ouside of the HBCU's. I have no problem with them seeing how they stack up against each other, but when they try to crown a "National Champion" thats a crock.

Reality check.

Very few give a fudge that ASU won the 1AA national championship. The average football fan couldn't name this years 1AA national championship. Should we discontinue the 1AA national championship game?

[AppGuy04]

Reality check.

Very few give a fudge that ASU won the 1AA national championship. The average football fan couldn't name this years 1AA national championship. Should we discontinue the 1AA national championship game?

Maybe you forget where you are posting. I would say that 90% of this website does care.

[tsutiger]

Maybe you forget where you are posting. I would say that 90% of this website does care.

Duhhhhhhh. I would hope someone who post on a 1AA message board would know who the champion is. I'm talking about the rest of the sports world. They don't give a fugde about 1AA football. Should we stop playing because THEY don't care about it.

Next time, if you're not interested or don't care about a subject don't post in that thread. Very simple or you might get mistaken for a hater.

[AppGuy04]

Duhhhhhhh. I would hope someone who post on a 1AA message board would know who the champion is. I'm talking about the rest of the sports world. They don't give a fugde about 1AA football. Should we stop playing because THEY don't care about it.

Next time, if you're not interested or don't care about a subject don't post in that thread. Very simple or you might get mistaken for a hater.

and you think they care about a "mythical" national champion more than the rest of I-AA??? Thats funny. The "rest of the sports world" as you call it, atleast knows that a I-AA champion is crowned. The Sheridan poll doesn't even exist to most people. Label me a hater if you want, I just call it like I see it. Any poll that only includes certain teams if assinine to me, but to each his own.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Label me a hater if you want, I just call it like I see it. Any poll that only includes certain teams if assinine to me, but to each his own.

OK you are a hater. The sports network and Sheridan polls are basically the same.

[AppGuy04]

OK you are a hater. The sports network and Sheridan polls are basically the same.

Actually, the only poll I really care about is the AGS poll.

[HiHiYikas]

Seems to me it's a little like the Charlotte Observer's best of the Carolinas rankings, only more official. These teams all have something in common (only with HCBU's it's something more than proximity); they play one another with regularity, and they have built storied rivalries - and so it's not inappropriate to have a system whereby they're all rated.

When the Observer says that ASU is the best football program in the Carolinas, it's excluding plenty of notable programs. Knoxville, Athens, and Blacksburg are all within a couple hours of the Carolinas, but those programs get excluded because that's the point of the poll. The poll isn't as important as something like ESPN or USA Today, but it's not useless, either.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Actually, the only poll I really care about is the AGS poll.

The worst of them all ...well except for the Sports Network.

[89Hen]

The sports network and Sheridan polls are basically the same.
I'd like to hear more on that statement Mach.

[AppGuy04]

The worst of them all ...well except for the Sports Network.

Thats funny, cause it seems to me that the AGS poll is the closest to predicting the GPi and therefore success in the playoffs.

[MACHIAVELLI]

I'd like to hear more on that statement Mach.

They have biases based on race.

[89Hen]

They have biases based on race.
Not sure I follow. Hampton was #2 in the SN poll to finish the regular season last year while most of the computers had them in the 20's. SCSt was #14 SN but in the 30's in most of the computers. Do you have anything that would back up your claim?

[MACHIAVELLI]

Not sure I follow. Hampton was #2 in the SN poll to finish the regular season last year while most of the computers had them in the 20's. SCSt was #14 SN but in the 30's in most of the computers. Do you have anything that would back up your claim?

how many atlarge bids has the meac ever gotten?

[*****]

If the meac was not an automatic bid conference, how many atlarge bids do you think they would have gotten over the years?one or two a year like most conferences (including the SWAC when they played for the championship).

[89Hen]

how many atlarge bids has the meac ever gotten?
What does that have to do with racism in the SN poll? :confused:

[MACHIAVELLI]

one or two a year like most conferences (including the SWAC when they played for the championship).

proof.

[*****]

proof.Of what? You already know how many at-large spots the MEAC and SWAC (all SWAC bids were at-large) got.

[Catmendue2]

The worst of them all ...well except for the Sports Network.



Thank you Mach. AGS made itself king of one double A football in five years at that.:cool:

[*****]

...AGS made itself king of one double A football in five years at that.:cool:Some things were just meant to be. :nod:

[AppGuy04]

Polls are racist? Now I've heard it all

[Mr. C]

As someone who is a voter in both The Sports Network and AGS polls, I take a large amount of offense in someone saying that these polls are racist. I judge teams solely on what I see with my eyes (I watch nearly every I-AA game that is televised on satellite in a given week, either live or on tape) and on how they do against other teams that I have seen. Race does not enter into my voting at all. Dropping the race card around here is a very silly thing to do. You will probably find less racism on this board than almost anywhere. If you want your team to get more recognition, start playing schools from outside the SWAC, particularly the powers of I-AA. Go head to head against Appalachian State, Northern Iowa, Montana, Delaware or Furman. If you beat a team like that, then people will vote you higher in the polls. Plain and simple.

By the way, Machiavelli, your constant attacks on Matt Dougherty and The Sports Network are getting very stale. When someone asks you why you have this vendetta, you never answer. Either provide proof for what you are saying, or stuff this racism crap.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Of what? You already know how many at-large spots the MEAC and SWAC (all SWAC bids were at-large) got.

I asked about the meac not the SWAC.

[89Hen]

I asked about the meac not the SWAC.
AFAIK, the MEAC received at-large bids in 1998, 1999, 2000 and 2003 with the only win by a MEAC at-large team being 1999.

[mikebigg]

A quick history lesson the Backe case...this type of thing probably still goes on at a lot of universities...people just don't stand up to them like this guy...
http://www.aaregistry.com/african_american_history/963/Bakke_case_ruled_by_Supreme_Court

Anyways, back on topic. I think that the HBCUs can have all the polls that they want, but this type of thing just furthers the gap between HBCUs and the rest of IAA/college football. I mean Hampton was the top HBCU last year, hands down; and look what happened to them in the playoffs? I just hope that they weren't striving to be the top HBCU and forgetting the fact that they were IAA. This type of poll is similar to a midmajor poll for Division 1 basketball; it is made to somehow reward mediocrity. Of course, I feel the same way about the polls for the "mid-major IAAs" as well.:twocents:

Hampton was not the top HBCU hands down! The final Sheridan poll had them tied with Grambling...who was undefeated in 1AA. It seems that most non-HBCU 1AA followers tend to give Hampton the nod despite the margin of victory against common opponents favoring the ICON and the fact that our stats far exceeded what Hampton was able to amass.

I admit to being biased towards the ICON because that's my alma mater...but some will not admit to an anti-SWAC bias because we don't participate in the playoffs. Regardless of whether we participate in the playoffs shouldn't have any bearing on whether we are better than any other 1AA team or not.

Can only speculate as to how well Grambling would have done in the playoffs last year.. but I will say this. We would not have been beaten 38-10 by ANY team that played in the playoffs!!!!

[89Hen]

Can only speculate as to how well Grambling would have done in the playoffs last year.. but I will say this. We would not have been beaten 38-10 by ANY team that played in the playoffs!!!!
Which in itself is speculation. The lack of playoffs does hurt the SWAC when it comes to recognition in the polls. But so do 52-20 and 35-17 losses to McNeese by the SWAC Champion and Runner-up in 2002 and 2004 respectively.

[mikebigg]

As someone who is a voter in both The Sports Network and AGS polls, I take a large amount of offense in someone saying that these polls are racist. I judge teams solely on what I see with my eyes (I watch nearly every I-AA game that is televised on satellite in a given week, either live or on tape) and on how they do against other teams that I have seen. Race does not enter into my voting at all. Dropping the race card around here is a very silly thing to do. You will probably find less racism on this board than almost anywhere. If you want your team to get more recognition, start playing schools from outside the SWAC, particularly the powers of I-AA. Go head to head against Appalachian State, Northern Iowa, Montana, Delaware or Furman. If you beat a team like that, then people will vote you higher in the polls. Plain and simple.

By the way, Machiavelli, your constant attacks on Matt Dougherty and The Sports Network are getting very stale. When someone asks you why you have this vendetta, you never answer. Either provide proof for what you are saying, or stuff this racism crap.

Let's not be naive... we are in America and unfortunately racism is woven into our fabric. I don't throw the card around because it's there on both side of the racial divide. Unfortunate but true.

So although you might not allow race to enter into your voting and evaluation, that's not to say that its not there with other voters...even those who try to fight it. Then on top of that, there's the battle against bias that has not so much to do with race but playoff participation. I'd wager that if/WHEN Grambling beats Hampton, the result will be a drop in ranking for Hampton moreso than a rise in rankings for Grambling.

Also there seems to be an overwhelming opinion that we "duck" other 1AA schools. Not true... we just don't participate in the playoffs due to scheduling conflicts. NCAA 1AA selection can choose a SWAC team to participate in the playoffs...but biased opinions make that not happen. If we are not ranked how can we go... we are not allowed to rank ourselves for the purpose of playoff participation!

[MACHIAVELLI]

You will probably find less racism on this board than almost anywhere. If you want your team to get more recognition, start playing schools from outside the SWAC, particularly the powers of I-AA. Go head to head against Appalachian State, Northern Iowa, Montana, Delaware or Furman. If you beat a team like that, then people will vote you higher in the polls. Plain and simple.

We've played Delaware before.

My team doesn't need validation by playing any of the so-called power house teams or being in the polls. If that is going to be your statement everytime then why include us in the polls anyway? The reality of it is, in our present situation, we are never going to play any of the teams you mentioned. We will not play them in the playoffs or in a home and home.

[mikebigg]

Which in itself is speculation. The lack of playoffs does hurt the SWAC when it comes to recognition in the polls. But so do 52-20 and 35-17 losses to McNeese by the SWAC Champion and Runner-up in 2002 and 2004 respectively.

Take nothing from McNeese, but the 2002 Grambling squad was a rebuilding team that didn't win the SWAC West (so not sure what SWAC Champion team you are referring to). That same McNeese team was the 1AA runnerups...so they beat a lot of teams that year. In 2003, no excuses. McNeese came to Grambling and won a very close game... it was to the wire (with Grambling threathening to score) but an unfortunate deflection off the hands of Tramon Douglas (17 catches, 3 td's) lead to an interception in the endzone. I know that if my aunt had nads, she'd be my uncle, but if Doug Williams wasn't so pass play stubborn, a running play would have scored with ease. McNeese was able to score again, but the emotion had been let out of the GMEN.

I know that sounds like an excuse, but if you ask any objective McNeese fan there they would tell you that they had to change some underwear prior to driving home (lol). That was a good McNeese squad...and personally, I hated to see the series end. But it wasn't like we didn't represent well (actually should have won) against a VERY good program.

[Cap'n Cat]

We've played Delaware before.

My team doesn't need validation by playing any of the so-called power house teams or being in the polls. If that is going to be your statement everytime then why include us in the polls anyway? The reality of it is, in our present situation, we are never going to play any of the teams you mentioned. We will not play them in the playoffs or in a home and home.

: smh : : smh : : smh : : smh : : smh : : smh : : smh :


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[MACHIAVELLI]

What, did I misspell MEAC in my answer?

I asked a question and you didn't answer it. That is what. I guess what he stated is true about the question that I asked about, since on one disagreed.

[SoCon48]

Let's not be naive... we are in America and unfortunately racism is woven into our fabric. I don't throw the card around because it's there on both side of the racial divide. Unfortunate but true.

So although you might not allow race to enter into your voting and evaluation, that's not to say that its not there with other voters...even those who try to fight it. Then on top of that, there's the battle against bias that has not so much to do with race but playoff participation. I'd wager that if/WHEN Grambling beats Hampton, the result will be a drop in ranking for Hampton moreso than a rise in rankings for Grambling.

Also there seems to be an overwhelming opinion that we "duck" other 1AA schools. Not true... we just don't participate in the playoffs due to scheduling conflicts. NCAA 1AA selection can choose a SWAC team to participate in the playoffs...but biased opinions make that not happen. If we are not ranked how can we go... we are not allowed to rank ourselves for the purpose of playoff participation!

Let's not be naive... we are in America and unfortunately racism is woven into our fabric. I don't throw the card around because it's there on both side of the racial divide. Unfortunate but true.

So although you might not allow race to enter into your voting and evaluation, that's not to say that its not there with other voters...even those who try to fight it.

It would seem logical that that racism would then carry over into recruiting and the voting of All-America teams, Heisman, etc voting.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Then on top of that, there's the battle against bias that has not so much to do with race but playoff participation. I'd wager that WHEN Grambling beats Hampton, the result will be a drop in ranking for Hampton moreso than a rise in rankings for Grambling.

I was saying this earlier.

[mikebigg]

We've played Delaware before.

My team doesn't need validation by playing any of the so-called power house teams or being in the polls. If that is going to be your statement everytime then why include us in the polls anyway? The reality of it is, in our present situation, we are never going to play any of the teams you mentioned. We will not play them in the playoffs or in a home and home.

I agree with all that Mach stats, except the last sentence. He and I have talked via the net and face to face on this and we simply disagree. I respect where Mach is coming from, but I am in favor of a home and home series against regional 1AA's like McNeese, Northwestern, Southeastern, Nichols, and maybe some of the neighboring 1AA's from Tx and Bama.

Now other games I would favor in a neutral site to make some cash for both schools. Remember that we played Portland State in a Classic game in 2001 because of the guarantee we received. I would love a neutral site game against traditional Top 10 teams in a "Classic" that pays well for both schools...otherwise, we are better off playing teams like U of H this year, Wash St last year, and Pittsburg next year.

[*****]

I asked a question and you didn't answer it...MACHIAVELLI: If the meac was not an automatic bid conference, how many atlarge bids do you think they would have gotten over the years?
RALPH: one or two a year like most conferences (including the SWAC when they played for the championship).

That's called an answer.:nod:

[SoCon48]

What does that have to do with racism in the SN poll? :confused:

A better question would be what the heck does racism have to do with the SN poll? I mean like do the voters count how many or how few minorities are on each roster before casting the votes? If they fail to vote for an HBCU because of racial make-up then I guess to be consistent, they'd have to vote for the team with the fewest minorities on the roster or fewer minority stars.
This conspiracy theory is a new one on me.

[89Hen]

Take nothing from McNeese, but the 2002 Grambling squad was a rebuilding team that didn't win the SWAC West (so not sure what SWAC Champion team you are referring to).
Everything I can find shows Grambling 31 - Alabama A&M 19 on December 14, 2002 in the SWAC Championship. :confused:

[mikebigg]

Let's not be naive... we are in America and unfortunately racism is woven into our fabric. I don't throw the card around because it's there on both side of the racial divide. Unfortunate but true.

So although you might not allow race to enter into your voting and evaluation, that's not to say that its not there with other voters...even those who try to fight it.

It would seem logical that that racism would then carry over into recruiting and the voting of All-America teams, Heisman, etc voting.

It does... sometimes it affects the outcome and sometimes it doesn't. Remember that I stated that it cuts both ways. Let me give you a classic example... Payton Manning should have won the Heisman, but was the victim of voter bias against his name (and their impression that he was a prima donna). Bruce Eugene should have won at least one of the Payton awards but bias against the SWAC and where he played entered into the equation. Was some of that bias just against the SWAC because of perception or was it due to the league being HBCU? I think it was a combination of both...but that's just my opinion.

[*****]

...This conspiracy theory is a new one on me.That's because it's racist! xlolx :rolleyes:

[MACHIAVELLI]

I agree with all that Mach stats, except the last sentence. He and I have talked via the net and face to face on this and we simply disagree. I respect where Mach is coming from, but I am in favor of a home and home series against regional 1AA's like McNeese, Northwestern, Southeastern, Nichols, and maybe some of the neighboring 1AA's from Tx and Bama.

Now other games I would favor in a neutral site to make some cash for both schools. Remember that we played Portland State in a Classic game in 2001 because of the guarantee we received. I would love a neutral site game against traditional Top 10 teams in a "Classic" that pays well for both schools...otherwise, we are better off playing teams like U of H this year, Wash St last year, and Pittsburg next year.

Don't overlook what I said... "in our present situation" Which means with only 2 non conference games to play on our schedule I am not, as a person that is in charge of sports, schedule a home and home with anybody when we could miss out atleast 1 million dollars for two years instead of 200k for 1. If we leave the SWAC or the SWAC drops the 9 game mandate and NCAA allows 12 games, with 5 non conference games I don't mind playing ULM, LSU, SELA, NSU, MSU or anybody else in the state of Louisiana.

[*****]

... Bruce Eugene should have won at least one of the Payton awards but bias against the SWAC and where he played entered into the equation. Was some of that bias just against the SWAC because of perception or was it due to the league being HBCU? I think it was a combination of both...but that's just my opinion.Yeah, racists kept Bruce from winning the Payton award...: smh :

[Catmendue2]

:thumbsup:
It does... sometimes it affects the outcome and sometimes it doesn't. Remember that I stated that it cuts both ways. Let me give you a classic example... Payton Manning should have won the Heisman, but was the victim of voter bias against his name (and their impression that he was a prima donna). Bruce Eugene should have won at least one of the Payton awards but bias against the SWAC and where he played entered into the equation. Was some of that bias just against the SWAC because of perception or was it due to the league being HBCU? I think it was a combination of both...but that's just my opinion.



Exactly.

[*****]

:thumbsup:
Exactly.That's a racist thing to say! xlolx

[GeauxColonels]

There can be bias in any poll, and I don't doubt for one minute that there are pollsters in the SNW poll that are racist. I can easily see people not voting for an HBCU because of the school's history and role in society. It's really not that hard to imagine.

Now, that being said.....how does the bias in the SNW poll in ANY way, affect the # of at-large bids the MEAC has received from the NCAA - a COMPLETELY independent organization from SNW????



Oh yeah.........NICHOLLS has 2 Ls!!!!!!

[mikebigg]

Everything I can find shows Grambling 31 - Alabama A&M 19 on December 14, 2002 in the SWAC Championship. :confused:

I stand corrected... I believe we did rebound from the season opening loss to McNeese to beat A&M. I recalled getting beaten by SU that year in the BC by 48-24 and was thinking we didn't make the championship..My bad. But that team was really one-dimensional.

I personally think that the 2001 team was the best team of the Doug Williams era and could have played with anyone in 1AA. We beat both non-conference games on the road (Portland & Nichols) that year. Not your traditional powers but victories nonetheless. My point is that, we don't run from competion...we just can't afford low revenue games.

Now I think Delaware would be a lucrative game for both teams. I could even see a home and home or neutral site game on the East Coast. I think afterwards, you would sing a different tune. We piss folk off with our ICON comments but trust me...we have a good program. I think we matchup well with the rest of 1AA. Maybe someday we will get a chance to show it...but if not, we ain't sweating it!

[MACHIAVELLI]

MACHIAVELLI: If the meac was not an automatic bid conference, how many atlarge bids do you think they would have gotten over the years?
RALPH: one or two a year like most conferences (including the SWAC when they played for the championship).

That's called an answer.:nod:

ummm this was my question....:read:

how many atlarge bids has the meac ever gotten?

[mikebigg]

Yeah, racists kept Bruce from winning the Payton award...: smh :

No Ralph that is not what I said...and you know that's not what I meant. What I feel though is that there was a lot of Anti-SWAC bias that hurt his chances. If Bruce had played in any other league (regardless of the wins/losses) and put up the same numbers he would have had a better chance. Just my opinion...but everytime his numbers were mentioned, folk questioned the competition. Other than the debacle in his first start against McNeese, he put up quality numbers in other non-conference games (McNeese II, Washington St, etc).

[Catmendue2]

Yeah, racists kept Bruce from winning the Payton award...: smh :



Tell us once and for all why he didn't win 1of3 then Ralph, I know you know so tell us.:smiley_wi

[*****]

ummm this was my question....:read:Sorry, I answered the first one before you changed it.

[MACHIAVELLI]

What I feel though is that there was a lot of Anti-SWAC bias that hurt his chances. If Bruce had played in any other league (regardless of the wins/losses) and put up the same numbers he would have had a better chance. Just my opinion...but everytime his numbers were mentioned, folk questioned the competition. Other than the debacle in his first start against McNeese, he put up quality numbers in other non-conference games (McNeese II, Washington St, etc).

Mike you an xidiotx for telling the truth.

[*****]

Tell us once and for all why he didn't win 1of3 then Ralph, I know you know so tell us.:smiley_wiBecause of racism of course. Silly question! xlolx

[EKU05]

I agree that it isn't all necessary, but if people still want to honorr a tradition by doing it I don't see a problem with that. No one is confusing this with being as big a deal as say...an actual national title so who cares?

[MACHIAVELLI]

By the way, Machiavelli, your constant attacks on Matt Dougherty and The Sports Network are getting very stale. When someone asks you why you have this vendetta, you never answer. Either provide proof for what you are saying, or stuff this racism crap.

My disdain for DOOR-matt has nothing to do with racism or crap. Since when do I have to report to you or anyone else concerning the lack of professionalism by FLOOR-matt?

[Catmendue2]

Because of racism of course. Silly question! xlolx


What is silly is all your one liners and no facts to support no dog in this fight. Everybody has agreed that there is convert racism at work both in the polls and in the awards. I guess being a protectionist for this game board means more than reality. That is so shameful.



Further, the only reason a question/thread like this would be brought to this board in the first place is to show that racism is alive.

[GeauxColonels]

I agree that it isn't all necessary, but if people still want to honorr a tradition by doing it I don't see a problem with that. No one is confusing this with being as big a deal as say...an actual national title so who cares?
I agree. Anyone can decide to create a poll....it's a free country. This one just happens to rate the HBCUs of the world against each other.

Besides, we all know the only way to win a true NCAA title in football is to play it out ON THE FIELD!

[GeauxColonels]

What is silly is all your one liners and no facts to support no dog in this fight. Everybody has agreed that there is convert racism at work both in the polls and in the awards. I guess being a protectionist for this game board means more than reality. That is so shameful.
Ummm.....did I miss something?! What is "convert racism"? :confused:

[Mr. C]

Taking nothing away from a player who had a great career, maybe Bruce Eugene didn't win the Payton because he wasn't the best player in the minds of the voters. Tony Romo of Eastern Illinois won it one year. He has shown his worth by sticking in the NFL for several years. Jamaal Branch won after a great rushing year. He is still hanging around with a chance to make an NFL roster, was one of the top players in NFL Europe and won the Payton despite coming from a league that doesn't usually garner a lot of respect (so much for that theory). Erik Meyer had a great career at Eastern Washington and great numbers against top-notch competition. I didn't see anywhere that I was suppose to vote for the player who had the best stats, but for the best player. I and a lot of other voters thought Meyer was the top player. There is a lot of balance between conferences for the voters of these awards and you probably had as much support for Bruce because he was from the SWAC by SWAC voters and MEAC voters than you did against him by voters from other conferences. As a voter, I am going to vote for the player who I think is the best. I don't care what conference they are from.

[89Hen]

Let me give you a classic example... Payton Manning should have won the Heisman, but was the victim of voter bias against his name (and their impression that he was a prima donna). Bruce Eugene should have won at least one of the Payton awards but bias against the SWAC and where he played entered into the equation. Was some of that bias just against the SWAC because of perception or was it due to the league being HBCU? I think it was a combination of both...but that's just my opinion.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but there's a huge difference in the examples you gave. You're saying Peyton Manning was descriminated against because of his father, while Bruce Eugene was descriminated against because of the SWAC and the fact that they're HBCU. I really don't know about the first because I don't even watch the Heisman let alone care who wins it. However, the fact that the SWAC doesn't participate in the playoffs certainly has to be the biggest factor.

I hate to use the comparison, but the SWAC is like a non-BCS I-A with the big difference being the non-BCS I-A's would like to be a part of the BCS, while the SWAC is perfectly content not participating in the playoffs. But look at the winners of the Heisman. There are only two winners since Roger Staubach in 1963 that came from teams not in the current BCS (Ty Detmer from BYU in 1990 and Andre Ware from Houston in 1989). The painful truth is that if you're not from a BCS conference, your chances of winning the Heisman are very slim to say the least. Similarly, if you're not from a playoff conference, your chances of winning the Payton are equally slim. I think there have only been two Payton winners from teams that weren't in playoff conferences and those were the first two winners of the trophy: Kenny Gamble of Colgate in 1987 and Dave Meggett of Towson in 1988.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Taking nothing away from a player who had a great career, maybe Bruce Eugene didn't win the Payton because he wasn't the best player in the minds of the voters. Tony Romo of Eastern Illinois won it one year. He has shown his worth by sticking in the NFL for several years. Jamaal Branch won after a great rushing year. He is still hanging around with a chance to make an NFL roster, was one of the top players in NFL Europe and won the Payton despite coming from a league that doesn't usually garner a lot of respect (so much for that theory). Erik Meyer had a great career at Eastern Washington and great numbers against top-notch competition. I didn't see anywhere that I was suppose to vote for the player who had the best stats, but for the best player. I and a lot of other voters thought Meyer was the top player. There is a lot of balance between conferences for the voters of these awards and you probably had as much support for Bruce because he was from the SWAC by SWAC voters and MEAC voters than you did against him by voters from other conferences. As a voter, I am going to vote for the player who I think is the best. I don't care what conference they are from.

The Payton his is a college award, not a what we think you will do in the pros award.

[89Hen]

What is silly is all your one liners and no facts to support no dog in this fight. Everybody has agreed that there is convert racism at work both in the polls and in the awards.
What facts have been shown to support the claim of racism in the SN Poll? Hampton's #2 spot in the final poll, many spots ahead of where the computers had them? And who is "everybody"? :nono:

[Mr. C]

My disdain for DOOR-matt has nothing to do with racism or crap. Since when do I have to report to you or anyone else concerning the lack of professionalism by FLOOR-matt?
As a fellow professional, who knows Matt well, your remarks on his professionalism are way out of line. They are just plain wrong. You have been taking pot shots and you have been asked to provide reasons for your below-th-belt remarks. Until you do, most people (many who respect Matt) are not going to take you seriously. If I were moderating this board, I would take extreme issue to your smack towards Matt (general discussion is not the smack board) and would probably suggest you be suspended for violating terms of service. Either give us a reason, or keep this garbage off this part of the board.

[Catmendue2]

Ummm.....did I miss something?! What is "convert racism"? :confused:


Go look in a mirror and you will have the answer. Report back now

[*****]

I don't vote in the Sheridan poll and I didn't vote for Bruce Eugene for the Payton in 2005.

[Mr. C]

The Payton his is a college award, not a what we think you will do in the pros award.
I was just showing with that example that maybe Tony Romo wasn't such a bad person to win the Payton. He had a great college career and he has continued to show his talent at the next level. There was more squawking (particularly from Doug Williams) about Bruce Eugene not winning the award that year than any of the other years.

[*****]

Go look in a mirror and you will have the answer. Report back nowThat's racist!:rolleyes: race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race race : smh :

[GeauxColonels]

Go look in a mirror and you will have the answer. Report back now
Right, still no clue what you're talking about. And instead of answering my LEGITIMATE question, because I truly have no clue what you meant by the term "convert racism" you take the opportunity to personally attack me. Wow, GREAT CLASS!!!!

Now, if you would like to have an adult discussion where I was asking a legitimate question, I would be happy to carry on the conversation with you.

[MACHIAVELLI]

As a fellow professional, who knows Matt well, your remarks on his professionalism are way out of line. They are just plain wrong. You have been taking pot shots and you have been asked to provide reasons for your below-th-belt remarks. Until you do, most people (many who respect Matt) are not going to take you seriously. If I were moderating this board, I would take extreme issue to your smack towards Matt (general discussion is not the smack board) and would probably suggest you be suspended for violating terms of service. Either give us a reason, or keep this garbage off this part of the board.

How can you tell me my opinion is wrong. You don't have to agree with me. I don't agree with most of the things you have said. But I don't have a problem with you. I am not posting on messege boards looking and hoping for approval from other posters. If the moderators want to suspend me...then suspend me. I am not smacking DOOR-matt, oh wait...what is your defintion of smack?

[Catmendue2]

Right, still no clue what you're talking about. And instead of answering my LEGITIMATE question, because I truly have no clue what you meant by the term "convert racism" you take the opportunity to personally attack me. Wow, GREAT CLASS!!!!

Now, if you would like to have an adult discussion where I was asking a legitimate question, I would be happy to carry on the conversation with you.


Yeah like you never put to many o's and always dotted every I in every word you typed. COVERT look it up, its not a new thing.

[GeauxColonels]

Yeah like you never put to many o's and always dotted every I in every word you typed. COVERT look it up, its not a new thing.
OK, that's what I thought you meant. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing some term that I wasn't aware of. I wasn't asking the question to try to catch some sort of grammatical error, I truly was making sure I understood what you were saying. However, instead, to try to "save face" all you have been able to do it personally attack me TWICE although I have done nothing but politely ask you what you meant. That's it. Nothing more.

I never once said that I have not made typos in my posts. People have asked me about it or corrected me when they knew what I was talking about and I have no problem going back to fix it. But don't come on here and attack someone just because they were trying to understand what you meant. That's the point of a discussion; and we can't have a valid, meaningful discussion if both parties don't understand everything that is said (or written in this case).

So you can come down off of your high and mighty soapbox back to the real world and actually DISCUSS the issues at hand with us instead of making personal attacks against people.

[*****]

The Sheridan poll is what it is and has been around for decades and decades.

[Catmendue2]

OK, that's what I thought you meant. I just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing some term that I wasn't aware of. I wasn't asking the question to try to catch some sort of grammatical error, I truly was making sure I understood what you were saying. However, instead, to try to "save face" all you have been able to do it personally attack me TWICE although I have done nothing but politely ask you what you meant. That's it. Nothing more.

I never once said that I have not made typos in my posts. People have asked me about it or corrected me when they knew what I was talking about and I have no problem going back to fix it. But don't come on here and attack someone just because they were trying to understand what you meant. That's the point of a discussion; and we can't have a valid, meaningful discussion if both parties don't understand everything that is said (or written in this case).

So you can come down off of your high and mighty soapbox back to the real world and actually DISCUSS the issues at hand with us instead of making personal attacks against people.


I guess you were the only person that didn't have an inkling as to what my intentions were. I guess, that I never suspected, that you might think I couldn't spell covert.

[*****]

I guess you were the only person that didn't have an inkling as to what my intentions were. I guess, that I never suspected, that you might think I couldn't spell covert.I thought you meant convert too. xcoffeex

[Catmendue2]

I thought you meant convert too. xcoffeex

That fits you perffectly(sp), you always take the middle of the road. It is safer that way isn't it.:D

[*****]

That fits you perffectly(sp), you always take the middle of the road. It is safer that way isn't it.:DI actually looked it up too, you are not the only person to typo it.:D
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/JA_ATHEN.HTM

[MACHIAVELLI]

There was more squawking (particularly from Doug Williams) about Bruce Eugene not winning the award that year than any of the other years.

Doug knew that the fix was on. I don't blame him for going off. Any voter that would hold something against a player for what a coach does or saying isn't much of a man/women. Don't get me started on Phoney-Moss...that is another thead.

[Catmendue2]

I actually looked it up too, you are not the only person to typo it.:D
http://www.coax.net/people/lwf/JA_ATHEN.HTM


If you aint converted by now your old Azz is in heap of trouble. I Just thought I would show you how to use it in a sentence.

[Catmendue2]

Ten pages later and everybody still wondering If is or if it isn't.

[*****]

If you aint converted by now your old Azz is in heap of trouble. I Just thought I would show you how to use it in a sentence.did you mean coverted or converted??? xlolx

I always point out the highway sign to the town of Covert, Michigan to my kids and we have a laugh. Like the sign on the cartoon show "Secret Entrance to the Evil Lair of Dr. Doom, Next Two Exits."

[*****]

Doug knew that the fix was on. I don't blame him for going off. Any voter that would hold something against a player for what a coach does or saying isn't much of a man/women. Don't get me started on Phoney-Moss...that is another thead.Wow, Floor-Matt and Phoney-Moss! Can I have a name like that too? How about Ralph WallASS? Please!xlolx

[MACHIAVELLI]

Wow, Floor-Matt and Phoney-Moss! Can I have a name like that too? How about Ralph WallASS? Please!xlolx

You gave me a name, so it would only be fitting if I give you one.

[*****]

You gave me a name, so it would only be fitting if I give you one.Let me know when you can of the name I gave you and the one you'll give me! :nod:

[Mr. C]

Doug knew that the fix was on. I don't blame him for going off. Any voter that would hold something against a player for what a coach does or saying isn't much of a man/women. Don't get me started on Phoney-Moss...that is another thead.
What an absolute crock of bull. There was no fix. Being a voter, I may have a little more insight (and Ralph probably does as well) than others about the process. You start throwing allegations like that around, you better have some proof.

[Cap'n Cat]

Doug knew that the fix was on. I don't blame him for going off. Any voter that would hold something against a player for what a coach does or saying isn't much of a man/women. Don't get me started on Phoney-Moss...that is another thead.


: smh : : smh : : smh : : smh : : smh : : smh :

[*****]

I want a name MACH!!!!!!

[jstate83]

http://www.tvland.com/shows/happydays/images/shows/actpic5.jpgThere ya go Ralph..............................xlolx

[PantherMan]

This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates...:read:

[SU Jag]

*********SU Jag walks in, looks around and walks back out*******************: smh : : smh : : smh :

[SU Jag]

This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates...:read:

And its all because of black people right?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[PantherMan]

And its all because of black people right?:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The perceived racism is due to some blacks people not getting their way, yes you are correct.xcoffeex

[SU Jag]

The perceived racism is due to some blacks people not getting their way, yes you are correct.xcoffeex

Whats "their"way?

[PantherMan]

Whats "their"way?

"Their way" would be in reference to these particular individuals' ideas not being accepted by mainstream society. I can't believe that you needed such a simple sentence explained...:eyebrow:

[SU Jag]

"Their way" would be in reference to these particular individuals' ideas not being accepted by mainstream society. I can't believe that you needed such a simple sentence explained...:eyebrow:

The mority of blacks idea arent accepted by mainstream society because the society we live in is majority white. Its doesnt matter if you're black, asian , or hispanic! That is racism. Not being accepted because your views arent accepted by the majority. The majority looks at it the same way, if it doesnt go the way that they want it then its wrong and not accepted!

[*****]

*********SU Jag walks in, looks around and walks back out*******************: smh : : smh : : smh :wise choice SUJ, I gotta sit back with the peashooter because it is so hilarious!

[SU Jag]

wise choice SUJ, I gotta sit back with the peashooter because it is so hilarious!


To be honest Ralph, I've learned more about race relations over the past year than I ever have before!:nod:

[mikebigg]

This thread seems to have no end... But it confirms what I've always known. Race matters! And it should but not in a negative connotation. No one has considered the fact that the Sheridan Polls and HBCU's is not a desire for separtism at all. It is in actuality holding on to a tradition and legacy that is still productive to America's mainstream. But please remember that it is not exclusive. That would be in violation of federal, state and local laws.

Should we have disbanded when Segregation ended... Why? Did any of the other existing conferences disband because they were all white? Leagues folded but that was for financial reasons not to become desegregated. Has any 1AA independents ever petition to join an HBCU league? Did Central Arkansas ever consider applying to the SWAC? Tn State joined the OVC, has their been any word on whether Southeastern considered petitioning the SWAC? Of course they didn't because economically and traditionally (in terms of rivalry games) they were a better fit in the leagues they joined. Maybe I could accuse them of being separationist or not being willing to compete in an all Black league. But that would be too narrowminded... I'll leave that up to others!:nono:

[*****]

This thread seems to have no end... But it confirms what I've always known. Race matters!...Heck, the subject is about a poll where race matters... are you surprised? xlolx News Flash!!! HBCU Poll Is About Race! Race Matters Shown Again!!

BTW, there are no all-black or all-white I-AA leagues.

[PantherMan]

The mority of blacks idea arent accepted by mainstream society because the society we live in is majority white. Its doesnt matter if you're black, asian , or hispanic! That is racism. Not being accepted because your views arent accepted by the majority. The majority looks at it the same way, if it doesnt go the way that they want it then its wrong and not accepted!

First off you have a terrible idea of what encompasses racism. Secondly, I am referring to our discussion of IAA football, which is also a sign of how some blacks (apparently yourself included) portray the world around them.xcoffeex

[TexasTerror]

After wasting my time reading this whole thread, I've come to the following conclusions...

The Sheridan Poll is important to those who take part. The credibility of such poll is "up in the air" just like any other poll, though it does seem the AGS poll does a pretty good job (see past results)..

All SWAC schools vote in the SNW poll as do MEAC schools, yet the poll and Matt D is racist according to MACHIAVELLI, though no one is quite sure why...

[jstate83]

This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates...:read:

Now this is the dumbest one sided shat that could have been typed.: smh :

***Walks back out on yet another thread turned stupid.***: smh :

[Tribe4SF]

To be honest Ralph, I've learned more about race relations over the past year than I ever have before!:nod:

Knowing that just about everyone here is well educated and (at least in their own view) well-meaning, the opinions expressed can be startling at times. Threads like this will pop up occasionally....forever.:(

[AppGuy04]

Knowing that just about everyone here is well educated and (at least in their own view) well-meaning, the opinions expressed can be startling at times. Threads like this will pop up occasionally....forever.:(

Actually, the original topic was supposed to be informative, not turn into another race thread, as it always seems to do

[Tribe4SF]

Actually, the original topic was supposed to be informative, not turn into another race thread, as it always seems to do

You might want to go back and read the first post again.

"What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation."

[AppGuy04]

You might want to go back and read the first post again.

"What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation."

That seemed more like an informative question than derogatory to me

[lucchesicourt]

Appguy, you are so right. I was just wondering WHY this poll still exists. If it exists as a part of history that's fine (as was mentioned previously). I did not mean to bring this up as a racist topic. I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart. Anyone who believes a person cannot attain high academic progress regardless of background is a fool. I feel by separating groups you take away some of the credit due individuals. For instance, the minority admissions program at UCD during Bakke period ( i was there at the time), made it sound like lesser qualified minorities were accepted before more qualified whites. That actually was not the case. But, that was Bakke's argument. The UC claimed that admission to medical school was NOT just based on grades. There were other intangibles that are taken into consideration during the oral interviews. Just like what you do for a football player I have a white friend who graduated with a 4.0 from UCD and applied to Duke medical school. He was rejected because he did not want to do research. Chris Jones (a black football player) graduated from UCD with a 4.0, and I believe is now attending medical school. Quite an accomplishment for anyone regardless of color.
I just happen to feel that when you start grouping people based on things like religion, race, ethnicity, you lose some credibility. Why? Because, people draw incorrect conclusions, as was done in the Bakke case, by those not familiar with what actually went on at the time. Did Bakke have higher grades, sure. Does that mean he was the most qualified? Not necessarily. There are both quanitative and subjective qualities of individuals that make good doctors. That is why they have oral interviews. Maybe Bakke didn't do well during this interview. That we will never know.

My whole intent was to try and understand why such a poll still exists. Let's face it, football polls are fun to challenge and talk about when it comes to our alma maters, but I really never see anyone discussing the Sheridan poll. The Ag Poll, USA today poll, Coaches Poll, etc., because they encompass who is or may be the best team around. The Sheridan poll does not do this.

I have also read that some think Bruce Eugene didn't win the Payton Award because he was a minority. Well, if you look at the winners of this award many minorities have won it. So, I just don't buy that opinion. Bruce Eugene was obviously a great D1AA football player, but to say the others weren't deserving of the award too, is to deny their talent. The Payton Award is an anuual award, and NOT a career award. If it was, Eugene probably would have won it, as it is obvious he was a tremendous talent.

[Tribe4SF]

That seemed more like an informative question than derogatory to me

I didn't say it was derogatory. You claimed the thread topic had nothing to do with race, which is not true. The second sentence injects race into the question, and the discussion. The basic proposition of the first post appears to be that the Sheridan Poll should be done away with. As I posted early on in the thread, such an argument should also call for doing away with the Lambert Cup poll.

[MACHIAVELLI]

I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart.

:confused:

[slostang]

:confused:
I did not think that one would get by you Mach.:)

[jstate83]

Smart black people..............:eek: ...................Dang..........:eek: ...........Call the Discovery channel and tell them to do a story on this rare happening.xidiotx

****Yet we IMAGINE things...............Thread gone from stupid to just plain DUMB and NARROWMINDED****xidiotx xidiotx

[89Hen]

yet the poll and Matt D is racist according to MACHIAVELLI, though no one is quite sure why...
That's my big problem with this thread. I showed examples of how the SN Poll seemed to actually overrate two MEAC schools last year, but Mach disappeared when asked to show evidence to support his position that the SN Poll is somehow racist in its rankings. :nonono2: xcoffeex

[MACHIAVELLI]

That's my big problem with this thread. I showed examples of how the SN Poll seemed to actually overrate two MEAC schools last year, but Mach disappeared when asked to show evidence to support his position that the SN Poll is somehow racist in its rankings. :nonono2: xcoffeex

Wow..that is your only big problem with this thread :nonono2:

SN poll will give a somewhat decent ranking only to teams that participate in the playoffs.

[89Hen]

Wow..that is your only big problem with this thread :nonono2:

SN poll will give a somewhat decent ranking only to teams that participate in the playoffs.
Where did I say only? :confused:

You still haven't provided any backup for your racist claim against the SN Poll. Saying it discriminates against non-playoff participants means it also discriminates against the Ivy which are about as PWC as they get. :nod:

[Cap'n Cat]

Smart black people..............:eek: ...................Dang..........:eek: ...........Call the Discovery channel and tell them to do a story on this rare happening.xidiotx



xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: :lmao: xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx xazzx

[SUjagTILLiDIE]

Appguy, you are so right. I was just wondering WHY this poll still exists. If it exists as a part of history that's fine (as was mentioned previously). I did not mean to bring this up as a racist topic. I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart. Anyone who believes a person cannot attain high academic progress regardless of background is a fool. I feel by separating groups you take away some of the credit due individuals. For instance, the minority admissions program at UCD during Bakke period ( i was there at the time), made it sound like lesser qualified minorities were accepted before more qualified whites. That actually was not the case. But, that was Bakke's argument. The UC claimed that admission to medical school was NOT just based on grades. There were other intangibles that are taken into consideration during the oral interviews. Just like what you do for a football player I have a white friend who graduated with a 4.0 from UCD and applied to Duke medical school. He was rejected because he did not want to do research. Chris Jones (a black football player) graduated from UCD with a 4.0, and I believe is now attending medical school. Quite an accomplishment for anyone regardless of color.
I just happen to feel that when you start grouping people based on things like religion, race, ethnicity, you lose some credibility. Why? Because, people draw incorrect conclusions, as was done in the Bakke case, by those not familiar with what actually went on at the time. Did Bakke have higher grades, sure. Does that mean he was the most qualified? Not necessarily. There are both quanitative and subjective qualities of individuals that make good doctors. That is why they have oral interviews. Maybe Bakke didn't do well during this interview. That we will never know.

My whole intent was to try and understand why such a poll still exists. Let's face it, football polls are fun to challenge and talk about when it comes to our alma maters, but I really never see anyone discussing the Sheridan poll. The Ag Poll, USA today poll, Coaches Poll, etc., because they encompass who is or may be the best team around. The Sheridan poll does not do this.

I have also read that some think Bruce Eugene didn't win the Payton Award because he was a minority. Well, if you look at the winners of this award many minorities have won it. So, I just don't buy that opinion. Bruce Eugene was obviously a great D1AA football player, but to say the others weren't deserving of the award too, is to deny their talent. The Payton Award is an anuual award, and NOT a career award. If it was, Eugene probably would have won it, as it is obvious he was a tremendous talent.
:nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :mad:

[lucchesicourt]

Machiavelli

The reason I said
"I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart."


Is because of THIS QUOTE by "Pantherman"

"This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates..."

which implies that HBCU graduates education levels are lower and I WANTED TO CONTEST that statement. So, that makes me a rcist. Now you wonder why white peole say little when they are amonst blacks is because there is the attempt to make every comment by a white person a racist one.

You guys are trying to make things racist that are not.

[lucchesicourt]

Sorry for the typos in that last statement, I went too fast because I got a little angry by the attempt to make everything I say a racist comment. So, here's a repost with errors fixed

Machiavelli

The reason I said
"I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart."


Is because of THIS QUOTE by "Pantherman"

"This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates..."

which implies that HBCU graduates education levels are lower and I WANTED TO CONTEST that statement. So, that makes me a racist. Now you wonder why white peole say little when they are amongst blacks is because there is the attempt to make every comment by a white person a racist one.

You guys are trying to make things racist that are not.

[Cap'n Cat]

:nonono2: :nonono2: :nonono2: :mad:


Tillie,
Read the quote in context and quit exaggerating. Surely reading comprehension is required to gain entry into the shallow halls of SWACdom?

: smh : : smh : : smh :

[lucchesicourt]

Cap'n ,

Thanks for the help, I guess I should have also referred to Sujag as he was the originator of that implication.

[foghorn]

Machiavelli

The reason I said
"I grew up with many black friends and many were quite smart."


Is because of THIS QUOTE by "Pantherman"

"This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates..."

which implies that HBCU graduates education levels are lower and I WANTED TO CONTEST that statement. So, that makes me a rcist. Now you wonder why white peole say little when they are amonst blacks is because there is the attempt to make every comment by a white person a racist one.

You guys are trying to make things racist that are not.

Luch, there's no need for you to explain anything. The response you're getting is just knee-jerk paranoia. If one were to say :" I have many white friends and some are quite smart", would anyone even give it a second thought? No wonder people are so PC pre-occupied. :bang:

[lucchesicourt]

Thanks for the support foghorn. I just get tired of people trying to twist words and make such implications.

[AppGuy04]

Thanks for the support foghorn. I just get tired of people trying to twist words and make such implications.

you will notice that it happens often around here and you will be doing alot of :bang: if you try and explain it

[OrneryAggie]

I would like to start a new poll similar to the sheridan poll except for predominantly asian-american universities. Anyone who is of asian descent or had asian friends at some point in their lives will be allowed to vote. I predict UCD, the same university Mr Lucchesi keeps referencing, will be the unanimous #1 pick among IAA institutions. NUMBER 1 BABY!!

:giveadamn:

can't wait for the season to start so we can get past this and play some football.

[lucchesicourt]

Well, one good thing came of this. I'm on my thrid Heineken.

[Cap'n Cat]

Our melanin-enhanced friends are hypersensitive and preachy about their shat. One understands a bit from whence they come. Nevertheless, many here can discern the point at which there comes to exist a very unhealthy persecution complex.

Cap'n Cat hath spoken.
Long live Cap'n Cat.


:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[slostang]

Well, one good thing came of this. I'm on my thrid Heineken.
lucchesicourt, I think almost everyone here knew what you were trying to say and know your intent was good. Do not sweat the one's that do not. Also I should be working so have a Heineken for me while I get back to work.

[lucchesicourt]

Thanks to you too slostang ,my fellow compatriot and rival. And, I'll drink to that too. I wish I could attend the game down there, but working for a local newspaper makes it tough during football season. I love our conference and the rivalries that are growing. All seem very good.

[SU Jag]

First off you have a terrible idea of what encompasses racism. Secondly, I am referring to our discussion of IAA football, which is also a sign of how some blacks (apparently yourself included) portray the world around them.xcoffeex


Have you ever seen the movie "A Time to Kill"? Well there is a scene in that movie when Sam Jackson is talking to his lawyer and he tell him "you'll never understand"! Those were also the words of Oprah Winfrey at the Urban League Convention, "America will never understand". So thats for you Panther guy, you'll never know what its like to walk a mile in my air forces, so you'll never understand the feelings and emotions that blacks carry.............................we try to tell you but you never, ever listen!

[HIU 93]

What an absolute crock of bull. There was no fix. Being a voter, I may have a little more insight (and Ralph probably does as well) than others about the process. You start throwinu g allegations like that around, you better have some proof.



"...better have proof..."? Or what? What are you going to do if he doesn't? I would be interested to know what you plan to do to a person for having and stating an opinion. I am not calling you a racist, but you seem to be getting mighty upset, and threatening, because a Black man has an opinion.

[Cap'n Cat]

Have you ever seen the movie "A Time to Kill"? Well there is a scene in that movie when Sam Jackson is talking to his lawyer and he tell him "you'll never understand"! Those were also the words of Oprah Winfrey at the Urban League Convention, "America will never understand". So thats for you Panther guy, you'll never know what its like to walk a mile in my air forces, so you'll never understand the feelings and emotions that blacks carry.............................we try to tell you but you never, ever listen!

Hey, Jag. maybe we won't, but do you think it hasn't been beat into our heads for decades. WTF you want us to do? We can't walk in your shoes. Frankly, I'd hate it. I'd be in jail for killin' someone who called me a nucka.

Recognize that we understand. Nearly all of us do, even though we might not convey all the time.

:)

[Cap'n Cat]

"...better have proof..."? Or what? What are you going to do if he doesn't? I would be interested to know what you plan to do to a person for having and stating an opinion. I am not calling you a racist, but you seem to be getting mighty upset, and threatening, because a Black man has an opinion.

Oh, Lawd......

:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[HIU 93]

This thread is proving why there is still a race divide in our country (idiots think everything that doesn't go their way is due to racism) and why people still ridicule the education levels of many HBCU graduates...:read:

I am graduate of an HBCU. I earned a Bachelor's at Hampton. I have a Master's from The University of Virginia and a second Master's from Virginia Tech. I guess UVA and Tech "...ridicule[d] the education levels of many HBCU graduates...", including me. Your ridiculous statement here shows your true colors about Black people and Black institutions. One of the Southern posters on here is in medical school. I guess his undergraduate education isn't worth anything, either. He will be a doctor, and probably PAID. I'm already into six figures. Yeah, our degrees aren't worth anything. Your degree is so much more valuable than mine. The moderators, and a lot of other posters on here, want to suspend Black posters ALL THE TIME for having differing opinions, but you are allowed to make a baseless and racist comment like this, and no one says a damn thing. I am reporting your post to the moderators. It won't do any good, but it will be reported.

[*****]

... The moderators, and a lot of other posters on here, want to suspend Black posters ALL THE TIME for having differing opinions...That's nonsense.

[HIU 93]

That's nonsense.

Really? Have you not read Mr. C's post on here asking that Machiavelli be suspended for posting an opinion of Matt Dougherty's professionalism? I'm sure you have, but you are having one of your selective memory episodes again.

[gr8ness97]

wow, ouch, the race card being pulled again

[lucchesicourt]

I doubt anyone can walk in the shoes of another race. Myself, I am mostly Irish and Italian (from back east originally), and yes there was discrimination there too, against Italians and Irish.
American Indians also have faced hard times, and I doubt you or any other group could feel what they do. They were the most oppressed group in the histroy of the US. No other race or ethnic group can compare. Settlers took their land (whites, Italians, Irish, and EVEN blacks) and caused the deaths of thousands of Indians directly and indirectly. If you are not American Indian you ARE guilty. And somehow these great people accept us NOW. They have overcome some of the hardest times and are still proud of their heritiage, and should be. Have blacks been oppressed? Yes. Was it fair no. But, many other races and ethnic groups have suffered some of the same things, but only the American Indian can compare the closest to what black Americans have suffered. But, even they cannot know what how bad the Indians had it.
Slaves were brought to this country before the Revolutionary War, and hence most of these slaves were owned by English settlers, not Americans.
When we finally became the US in 1776, less than 100 years later the slaves were all freed. It is now 140 years since then and we still have racism. Racism will NOT end until each side gives a little or a lot, depending on the situation. You cannot expect another to understand the problems facing other races or ethnic groups. They never will, but they can acccept knowing the problems that have existed to that group.
Do not expect others to understand your feelings, only expect them to understand the history of what has occurred.

[gr8ness97]

i dont think your question was a bad one, but people do blow things out of context...just be yourself and dont sweat the bad stuff...you did no harm

[lucchesicourt]

Thanks gr8tness. I try to treat people as I would like to be treated.

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Tribe4SF,

Just in case you are serious about your question.



You might want to go back and read the first post again.

"What is the purpose of this poll? It seems, it sort of continues the idea of segregation."

Why do you believe that the end of segregation and the pursuit of integration must mean cancellation and assimilation of all things associated with the African-American cultural of excellence?

The SBN Sports Network, a division of American Urban Radio Networks (AURN), holds an annual Black College All-American (BCAA) Awards weekend on Saturday, usually in February in Atlanta, Georgia. During what is known as the skull session, high school and college players hold conversation with current and past NFL players about topics ranging from the importance of education -- to what it takes to be successful both on and off the field. It is simply a celebration of cultural excellence.

Pfizer Inc, a nine-year corporate supporter of the awards, provides scholarship donations to the schools in the name of each Black College All-American athlete honored. NRT Coldwell Banker distributed $20,000 in scholarships to the historical black colleges and universities represented by the top 4 awards recipients.

The purpose of the Sheridan Poll is to provide a historical perspective of national ranking from 1-10 for historical black colleges and universities (HBCU) regardless of classification (NCAA Division II, Division I-AA, NAIA Division I). The Sheridan Poll is sustained to pass down a historic framework of athletic competition to African-American progeny.

Unlike previous polls during segregation, the Sheridan Poll does not prohibit a program from participating and earning an opportunity to be a NCAA I-AA national champion or NAIA national champion. Nor does the poll prohibit any program from joining a HBCU conference or having the opportunity to earn votes for ranking in said poll.

It is important to understand from a historical standpoint that the Sheridan Poll did not designate the nomenclature of historically black college and university. Before the Civil War, higher education for black students was virtually non-existent. The few, such as Fredrick Douglass, who did receive schooling, often studied in informal and sometimes hostile settings, or were forced to teach themselves entirely.

Southern whites strongly opposed the education of black students, and formal education for blacks was only slightly more common in the North. Due to court cases such as Roberts vs. Boston 1849 and Plessy vs. Ferguson 1896 that legalized segregation “Constitution” of African-Americans in the United States, African-Americans and other abolitionist created schools for elementary and secondary training and later colleges and universities.
In the years following the Civil War, with the 13th amendment's abolition of slavery and reconstruction in the South, things were beginning to change. In 1862, senator Justin Morrill spearheaded a movement to improve the state of public higher education throughout the United States, putting an emphasis on the need for institutions to train Americans in the applied sciences, agriculture, and engineering.

The Morrill Land-Grant Act gave federal lands to the states for the purpose of opening colleges and universities to educate farmers, scientists, and teachers. Although many such institutions were created, few were open or inviting to blacks, particularly in the South. Only Alcorn State University in Mississippi was created explicitly as a black land-grant college.

It would be 28 years before Senator Morrill rectified this problem. The solution came with the second Morrill Land-Grant Act of 1890, which specified that states using federal land-grant funds must either make their schools open to both blacks and whites or allocate money for segregated black colleges to serve as an alternative to white schools. A total of 16 exclusively black institutions received 1890 land-grant funds.

Most of these public schools were founded by state legislatures between 1870 and 1910. Prior to this, it was the initiative of many blacks themselves, along with the support of the American Missionary Association (AMA) and the Freedmen's Bureau that was responsible for setting up private colleges and universities for the education of blacks. African-American churches ran their own elementary and secondary educations for southern blacks, preparing them for vocations or advanced studies.

This created a demand for higher education, particularly for the institutes to train teachers for work in black schools. Between 1861 and 1870, the AMA founded seven black colleges and 13 normal (teaching) schools. Many of these institutions, along with the private HBCUs founded later by the AMA, the Freedmen's Bureau, and black churches, became the backbone of black higher education, producing African-American leaders for generations to come.

Historically Black colleges and universities
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HBCU


American Urban Radio Networks
http://www.aurnol.com/home.asp

American Urban Radio Networks (AURN) is the only African-American owned radio network company in the United States. It is the largest network reaching Urban America. Through four programming networks and one promotion network, AURN reaches more African Americans than any other medium in America and produces more urban programming than all other broadcasting companies combined. AURN broadcasts news, entertainment, sports and information programming to more than 475 radio stations nationwide. With more than 300 weekly shows, AURN reaches 25 million weekly listeners. Our SPM Urban Network provides brands with national promotions and fully integrated marketing programs. AURN has offices in New York, Pittsburgh, Atlanta, Chicago, Detroit, Los Angeles and Washington, D.C.

White House Initiative on Historically Black Colleges and Universities
http://www.ed.gov/about/inits/list/whhbcu/edlite-index.html
Mission
To strengthen the capacity of Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) to provide excellence in education.
A Brief History
In 1980, President Jimmy Carter signed Executive Order 12232, which established a federal program "... to overcome the effects of discriminatory treatment and to strengthen and expand the capacity of historically black colleges and universities to provide quality education." …

[lucchesicourt]

I see nothing wrong with any poll. But, there are over 100 teams in 1AA and yet the Sheridan poll includes only a small percentage of colleges making it pretty much meaningless (that is just my opinion). I believe scholarships are fine for everyione, but we are talking about football. Do you see such a poll for wrestling, baseball,basketball, tennis, etc. I think not. So, why does this one exist? That is my question. I understand there was a time, just like when baseball discriminated against minorities,they formed their own leagues. But, these leagues no longer exists as minorities have entered the mainstream of baseball. I am just wondering when will college football polls do the same, and if not why not? I see anything that separates people based on color, etnicity, etc. as discriminatory. I am Italian and see the Son's of Italy as discriminatory group too, because it is for Italians , but others can join if they don't mind ridicule. So, why would a non Italian join? That makes it a discrimatory group. That is wrong, IMO.

[Tod]

America's earlier history (and unfortunately, there are still many problems), made it reasonable, and in most cases (if not all) mandatory, for black Americans to do things on their own.

Now that things have gotten better (but obviously not completely), is it still needed?

There is history, business, and jobs because of the earlier discrimination. Now white people think that all of that should just be abandoned?

You honkies are crazy!

xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

[Jafus (Thinker)]

lucchesicourt,


I see nothing wrong with any poll. But, there are over 100 teams in 1AA and yet the Sheridan poll includes only a small percentage of colleges making it pretty much meaningless (that is just my opinion).

Why would it be meaningless if is services the purpose it is created to serve? Just because you do not or fail to understand the dynamics and meaning of the poll does not make it meaningless.


I believe scholarships are fine for everyione, but we are talking about football. Do you see such a poll for wrestling, baseball,basketball, tennis, etc. I think not.

Maybe that is simple economics. If the wrestling, baseball (there is a poll that provides a trophy and working towards generating scholarships), basketball (there was a poll and a scholarship banquet), tennis etc. are to gain interest, sponsorships, and exposure. This provides more evidence that it is not a discriminatory African-American HBCU mindset or environment because it does not cross athletic sport boundaries. It is a unique event.


So, why does this one exist? That is my question. I understand there was a time, just like when baseball discriminated against minorities,they formed their own leagues. But, these leagues no longer exists as minorities have entered the mainstream of baseball. I am just wondering when will college football polls do the same, and if not why not?

???

Again, since you understand there was a time when baseball discriminated against minorities. I ask you the same question. Why do you believe that the end of segregation and the pursuit of integration must mean cancellation and assimilation of all things associated with the African-American cultural of excellence?

Many suggest because segregation was eventually brought to a halt, integration created an environment that eventually saw the end of the Negro Baseball League. Others suggest it was simply economics. The curious thing in regards to your scenario is the fact that while integration finally took place on the field.

It has taken even longer for it to take place in management on and even to a worse degree in the front office. To this very day while integration provided an excellent opportunity for African-American ball players on the field, there are not an African-American Major League Baseball owners unlike the opportunity that presented itself in Negro Baseball League.

This empowerment for equality and choice scene in Plessy vs. Ferguson and more importantly to African-Americans the Supreme Court decision on Brown vs. Topeka Board of Education has continued the plight of African-Americans in this country.

The fight for equality and choice in the democratic policy value is “not” at the detriment or expense of economic empowerment in gaining and sustaining wealth in individuals and organizations as an economic/capitalistic policy value of quality and efficiency.


I see anything that separates people based on color, etnicity, etc. as discriminatory. I am Italian and see the Son's of Italy as discriminatory group too, because it is for Italians , but others can join if they don't mind ridicule. So, why would a non Italian join? That makes it a discrimatory group. That is wrong, IMO.

I respectfully disagree. The separation of people based on socio-economics, color, ethnicity, religion, is not a discriminatory practice until there is evidence of bias or prejudice involved based on an attitude formed beforehand.

Think About It!!

[lucchesicourt]

Jafus, where are you getting lost. I did NOT specifically say cancelling anything that is African-American. I said all- including things like the Sons of Italy (I am Italian too) as this is a racist group that I refuse to support So, being Italian and not supporting the Sons of Italy makes me racist towards Italians. I guess I must hate myself, I do at times, but not because I am Italian.. I believe anything done to contribute to ONLY one race is racism. The Sons of italy are racists, the KKK is racist, the black panthers were racist, etc. I am not specifically against African Americans as you seem to think.

[lucchesicourt]

Jafus, all a person need to do to own a professional team is, pony up the money and get financial approval from the board of governors. Michael Jordan is PART owner of a B-ball team, and I am not sure how many African American owners there are for other professional teams as there are many minority partners. But, the OPPORTUNITY is there. What African American has attempted to own a team and had the finances to do it and been refused on the basis of his color?
As for B-ball I never see anyone saying there aren't enopugh white players. Maybe, because the African Americans are better at this game or they practice more than whites (in general). The bottom line is the BEST qualified should be doing the job.

[Mr. C]

"...better have proof..."? Or what? What are you going to do if he doesn't? I would be interested to know what you plan to do to a person for having and stating an opinion. I am not calling you a racist, but you seem to be getting mighty upset, and threatening, because a Black man has an opinion.
Get a clue, dude. I was not threatening anyone, or getting upset either. What I was refering to is the concept of LIBEL (of which I had to study at length in my particular major). If you are going to charge someone with "fixing" an award like the Payton, you are coming perilously close to Libel, if you can't prove it. Truth is an absolute defense against Libel. I doubt that Tony Moss, or The Sports Network, will go after a person that posts a questionable message on AGS, but these people (and many other prominent folks) do regularly read stuff on here. As someone who has voted for the Payton, the Buchanan and Robinson awards for several years, I know the people who are handing these honors out and they are not the type of people who would "fix" awards. What was written, accusing them of such, was extremely irresponsible.

[Mr. Tiger]

I swear. I thought the season would have at least started before we got into one of these fights. And once again I really don't see the big deal here. The Sheridan Poll is nothing new. Matter of fact, I believe it is older than any of the polls mentioned here. And if you don't like it, ignore it. That's what I do with the Harris Interactive poll and the BCS champion in Division I-A football. :D The Sheridan Poll ranks HBCU programs and the term, HBCU, is a designation used by our federal government. And here's a NEWS FLASH: America is still segregated. I know. I know. It is hard to believe. :eyebrow: And there are so few clues. It is not like we seperate gifted students from not so gifted students. And we don't build gated communities. Na, those don't exist. We don't have private schools. We certainly don't have fraternities. And we don't have country clubs with restrictive memberships. I could go on and on, but why. Because those things are seperating people, it's that gosh darn Sheridan Poll. That thing needs to be abolished. xlolx xidiotx

[Mr. C]

I have no problem with the Sheridan Poll (and have even followed it for years). I think it is silly to hand out a "National Championship" based on it at the end of the year (sounds a lot like our BCS friends and the way they used to decide their national champions), but that's okay. What I don't like is to see people taking shots at folks that have been supportive of HBCU football (like The Sports Network, which has named three of its four awards after former HBCU stars). TSN has a number of HBCU players on its All-American team, as does I-AA.org. I know I watch HBCU games on TV every chance I get. We may have different views on things like the playoffs, but most of us around here love the traditions of teams like Grambling, Southern, Hampton and South Carolina State (to name but a few). I've watched Grambling since I was a kid and was first turned on to the program when someone from my area, QB Jim Gregory, was recruited to play for the Tigers as their first white player. Let's focus on the good stuff and leave all of the negative stuff behind.

[MACHIAVELLI]

What I was refering to is the concept of LIBEL (of which I had to study at length in my particular major). If you are going to charge someone with "fixing" an award like the Payton, you are coming perilously close to Libel, if you can't prove it. Truth is an absolute defense against Libel. I doubt that Tony Moss, or The Sports Network, will go after a person that posts a questionable message on AGS, but these people (and many other prominent folks) do regularly read stuff on here. As someone who has voted for the Payton, the Buchanan and Robinson awards for several years, I know the people who are handing these honors out and they are not the type of people who would "fix" awards. What was written, accusing them of such, was extremely irresponsible.


If voters can look past Grambling’s relatively weak schedule and forgive head coach Doug Williams’ crybaby antics when Eugene didn’t win the Payton last year, the New Orleans native has a chance to take home the hardware in ’03.

Straight from Phoney's mouth (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/moss_archive/3rdandlong_051603.htm)

[Mr. C]

Straight from Phoney's mouth (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/moss_archive/3rdandlong_051603.htm)
Is this suppose to be evidence that Moss "fixed" the Payton Award? I had more than my share of battles with Mr. Moss (we were far from friends and some of our battles were actually over him having a higher opinion of Eugene than I did), but that is just an example of Tony being opinionated. It isn't an example of him stuffing the ballot box.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Is this suppose to be evidence that Moss "fixed" the Payton Award? I had more than my share of battles with Mr. Moss (we were far from friends and some of our battles were actually over him having a higher opinion of Eugene than I did), but that is just an example of Tony being opinionated. It isn't an example of him stuffing the ballot box.

This is evdience that Phoney Moss was so outraged by a coach defending his player that he chose to write about it, if I'm not mistaken, more than once. Yeah your right. A reporter would never be vindictive because a coach called them out. A reporter would never call a coach a crybaby in an article. A reporter is above reproach and is never wrong.
What is the criteria for voting on the SN poll? Journalistic integrity must not be on that list.

[PantherMan]

This is evdience that Phoney Moss was so outraged by a coach defending his player that he chose to write about it, if I'm not mistaken, more than once. Yeah your right. A reporter would never be vindictive because a coach called them out. A reporter would never call a coach a crybaby in an article. A reporter is above reproach and is never wrong.
What is the criteria for voting on the SN poll? Journalistic integrity must not be on that list.

Hey, he probably called it like he saw it. If the coach was whining, he put himself in the position to have negative things said about him. Through your own way of reasoning, you are implying that a coach who whines about something is not beyond reproach.:confused:

[MACHIAVELLI]

Hey, he probably called it like he saw it. If the coach was whining, he put himself in the position to have negative things said about him. Through your own way of reasoning, you are implying that a coach who whines about something is not beyond reproach.:confused:


And I called it like I saw it. A coach giving his stronly voicing his opinion why he thought his player should have gotten an award got turned into a coach with crybaby antics by Phoney Moss.

[mikebigg]

Is this suppose to be evidence that Moss "fixed" the Payton Award? I had more than my share of battles with Mr. Moss (we were far from friends and some of our battles were actually over him having a higher opinion of Eugene than I did), but that is just an example of Tony being opinionated. It isn't an example of him stuffing the ballot box.

Mach doesn't need me to speak for him, but when I read his "fix" was in comment, I took it to mean that the voters had made up their minds to NOT vote for Eugene as a slight toward his conference.

I believe their is an anti-SWAC bias on this board. It rears it's head whenever we refer to Grambling as the ICON. It rears it head whenever someone mentions the SCG or the Sheridan Poll. Some were even so shallow as to accuse HBCU's as being segregationist. However, none of those (in the Sheridan Poll Thread) responded to my question about why our HBCU conferences remaining in tact once segregation happen is considered being separatist when other PWC conference champions remained in tact in terms of their roster of teams. Why didn't any conferences offer HBCU's to join their ranks? Surely they weren't being separtist...

[*****]

Mach doesn't need me to speak for him, but when I read his "fix" was in comment, I took it to mean that the voters had made up their minds to NOT vote for Eugene as a slight toward his conference.that fits with your prior statements but not everyone may see it that way.
I believe their is an anti-SWAC bias on this board. It rears it's head whenever we refer to Grambling as the ICON. It rears it head whenever someone mentions the SCG or the Sheridan Poll. Some were even so shallow as to accuse HBCU's as being segregationist.Then that bias exists on TSPN as well because every one of those things are said there, the SWAC messageboard community. I think it's hogwash.
Why didn't any conferences offer HBCU's to join their ranks? Surely they weren't being separtist...Who didn't? I am not aware of official word on this...

[lucchesicourt]

And why didn't any confereence offer an invitation to UCD to join? It must be discrimination of some sort. So, we formed our own conference- Sound familiar?

[Tribe4SF]

Straight from Phoney's mouth (http://www.sportsnetwork.com/default.asp?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/misc/moss_archive/3rdandlong_051603.htm)

I must say that when I hit the link, I expected to read an unrealistic and minimizing account of Eugene. Instead I find him ranked #1 by Moss.:confused:

These threads inevitably become bizarre, and Mach always seems to contribute to that.

[lucchesicourt]

Eugene had a tremendous collegiate career and is deserving of being in the College Football HOF, but unfortunately in a given year others got more votes than he for the Payton Award. Was he deserving of getting it, sure. Were others? yeah, so crap happens,

Last year in MLB, I thought Ortiz was the MVP, but Rodriguez won. That is how things go sometimes. This year may be Ortiz's year. but who can be sure until the votes are counted. There are others also in the running and with split votes it can be anyone's who has good credentials. Many who vote for the MVP will not vote for 2 from the same team, because a team can only have one MVP and Boston has several candidates so far.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Eugene had a tremendous collegiate career and is deserving of being in the College Football HOF, but unfortunately in a given year others got more votes than he for the Payton Award.


I never knew that until you just said it. WOW !!! It is all clear to me now.

[MACHIAVELLI]

I must say that when I hit the link, I expected to read an unrealistic and minimizing account of Eugene. Instead I find him ranked #1 by Moss.:confused:

These threads inevitably become bizarre, and Mach always seems to contribute to that.

And how did this story end?

[lucchesicourt]

Mach, my point is sometimes you don't get the votes to win an award and it is NOT based on anything but votes. Your sacasm I can do without.

[89Hen]

Hey Mach, got anything on the SN poll yet? Still waiting to see how it can be seen as racist.

[Tribe4SF]

And how did this story end?

With a realistic appraisal of his chances to win the Payton.

[MACHIAVELLI]

Mach, my point is sometimes you don't get the votes to win an award and it is NOT based on anything but votes.


Sometimes you don't get to win an award/ranking because some voters base their votes on an "idiot"ology that only playoff teams deserve to be justly ranked in a poll. And those team that are unjustly ranked and the players from those team are deemed inferior because they don't compete in the playoffs. Don't be confused by preseason ranking by these types of people (the "Playoffs type of people). Sometimes it is hard to ignor the records, but in most cases, as I have pointed out the numbers are staring you in the face and the "they don't play good competition" or "those numbers are inflated" or "that team was not a good team or playoff team when you beat them" "or even though you have a better record than this other team, we are going to send you on the road for a playoff game, because of a so-called stronger schedule" comes up. My point and stance has always been if you are not going to rank the team/vote for players the same then exclude us from the vote. Don't think that I don't have a problem with the Sheridan poll either. I don't like the fact that they rank I-AA HBCU's with SIAC, CIAA. I've said all I care to say on the subject for now. Go on thinking that there is nothing wrong.

[89Hen]

Sometimes you don't get to win an award/ranking because some voters base their votes on an "idiot"ology that only playoff teams deserve to be justly ranked in a poll.
And how is that racial?

[gr8ness97]

To me, the Sheridan poll does nothing for me but to judge HBCU's together...its useless, but it is a piece of history, so thats why it isnt dead.

As for bruce, he had a spectacular career, but without bruce, grambling would not have been crippled. The other QB that grambling has came on and subbed for bruce well when we was out that one season. Bruce was a good QB, but his numbers were inflated too due to the system that grambling runs. Grambling wasnt crippled when he left, so although he did make an impact on the team, they still went on without him. Bruce's competition also wasnt very stron IN COMPARISON to other 1-AA school, so that was a blow against him also, but thats not his fault. Him not winning the Trophy is not his fault, and if he isnt complaining, then why should we?

[biobengal]

What is the real issue with the poll? Is it the fact that it exists? I doubt it. From my perspective, the problem lies with the crowning of a national champion, I think this denigrates the whole subclassification. Lets face it, I-AA football has some public perception issues due to the diversity of its membership; however, this is also the strength of I-AA.

Is it possible to become an HBCU natinional champion and a NCAA I-AA national champion?

[lucchesicourt]

Hey, sure people get slighted. At UCD, a D2 non schollie player (JT O'Sullivan) received one vote for the Heisman award, but did NOT get the Harlan Hill award as the top player in D2. Why? Who knows. But, sometimes the best get overlooked because of where they play (as you say), because they are non schollie athletes (as members of D1AA seemed to feel about the quality of UCD's D2 players a few years ago), etc. There is bias and subjectiveness in all awards that cannot be statistically proven correct (such as homeruns, batting avg., etc). Unfortunately football has lots of innate subjectiveness built into it. A players numbers are all dependent on another group of players doing their job. Some think a player on a losing team should not win such an award. Hey, Barry Sanders was about the best RB I have ever seen, as he had nothing to work with, and won ONLY 1 MVP award (Walter Payton is right there too). That is my opinion, someone else might pick Payton or Brown or Simpson etc.

[lucchesicourt]

gr8ness, that is pretty much what I was saying. Why is there a Sheridan poll, and what is its purpose? I do not see it serving any more of a purpose than if one was to rank teams beginning with the letter "A" as the top "A" team in the country.

[gr8ness97]

its basically there for historical purposes and gives HBCU's a way to match up with each other...an HBCU national champion only concerns the HBCU's across the country, so it is possible to have an HBCU and a 1-aa national champion...

[AppGuy04]

Is it possible to become an HBCU natinional champion and a NCAA I-AA national champion?

Sure, as long as that HBCU champion is not in the SWAC. If the I-AA team was Hampton or SC State etc, then yes its possible, but the way things are now, Grambling could never be the I-AA National Champion b/c the SWAC does not compete in the playoffs.

[lucchesicourt]

so, gr8tness, you have done the best as to answer why there is a Sheridan poll. It exists mainly because of historical factors. That, I guess, is to make sure we do not forget the erroors of the past. It's there as a reminder of was, lest we forget.

[Mr. Tiger]

Sure, as long as that HBCU champion is not in the SWAC. If the I-AA team was Hampton or SC State etc, then yes its possible, but the way things are now, Grambling could never be the I-AA National Champion b/c the SWAC does not compete in the playoffs.

That's dead wrong. A SWAC team can still participate in the playoffs. Grambling and Southern play in the Bayou Classic so they are not eligible. And the winners of the East and West divisions are not eligible. But if Jackson State goes 9-2 with a conference loss to Alabama A&M who goes undefeated in conference play. Alabama A&M wins the East and goes to the SWAC Championship and Jackson State would be eligible for an at-large playoff berth. You could see this in the future.

Also, The HBCU champion has been crowned since 1920 so it's nothing new. And let's face it, football is still segregated. How many white schools are in or have applied to the SWAC and MEAC? And how many blacks schools have applied to join or have joined the Southland or Southern Conferences?

[gr8ness97]

hampton did apply to the A-10, but got rejected...i dont know the reason why though

[89Hen]

A SWAC team can still participate in the playoffs. Grambling and Southern play in the Bayou Classic so they are not eligible. And the winners of the East and West divisions are not eligible. But if Jackson State goes 9-2 with a conference loss to Alabama A&M who goes undefeated in conference play. Alabama A&M wins the East and goes to the SWAC Championship and Jackson State would be eligible for an at-large playoff berth. You could see this in the future.
"can" and "eligible" used very loosely. The NCAA is not about to take the #2 team from the SWAC East without the #1 team.

[89Hen]

Hey Mach, got anything on the SN poll yet? Still waiting to see how it can be seen as racist.
*bump*

[AppGuy04]

"can" and "eligible" used very loosely. The NCAA is not about to take the #2 team from the SWAC East without the #1 team.

thanks Hen, I wasn't about to go that far down the line, b/c there is no way that the #2 team in the SWAC would be picked over other teams

[89Hen]

b/c there is no way that the #2 team in the SWAC would be picked over other teams
I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement as the MEAC and OVC have had at-large bids before with similar conference ranks, but there's no way the #2 SWAC East team gets in without the #1 going first (this also assumes that the team is even the #2 SWAC team (could be GSU, SU or the SWAC West #1).

[AppGuy04]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that statement as the MEAC and OVC have had at-large bids before with similar conference ranks, but there's no way the #2 SWAC East team gets in without the #1 going first (this also assumes that the team is even the #2 SWAC team (could be GSU, SU or the SWAC West #1).

you proved my point, too many damn stipulations, not worth it

[Mr. C]

This is evdience that Phoney Moss was so outraged by a coach defending his player that he chose to write about it, if I'm not mistaken, more than once. Yeah your right. A reporter would never be vindictive because a coach called them out. A reporter would never call a coach a crybaby in an article. A reporter is above reproach and is never wrong.
What is the criteria for voting on the SN poll? Journalistic integrity must not be on that list.
Considering the stormy relationship I had professionally with Tony Moss, it is kind of funny to find myself defending him. But I saw no lack of journalistic integrity in the column that you mention. You might not like it, because you are a die-hard Grambling supporter, but a lot of people thought that Doug Williams was being a whiner when he came out with his rather outrageous comments (not the first time, or the last from Doug). I didn't like Doug's complaints at the time, either. I can tell you from reading my e-mail that there have been times when folks from Montana, Lehigh, Appalachian State, Georgia Southern, Coastal Carolina etc. (the list goes on and on) have not liked things I have criticized their programs for and have told me about it in not so kind words. But I have continued to vote for all of those schools in the national polls and have picked their players for things like All-American teams. I can tell you from experience and conversation that Tony Moss was a big supporter of Bruce Eugene's and probably helped him get votes, rather than hurt him.

[HIU 93]

hampton did apply to the A-10, but got rejected...i dont know the reason why though

No- Hampton NEVER applied to the A-10. That has become an urban legend of sorts. Informal conversations took place between Dr. Harvey and A-10 leadership, but there never were any formal applications or extensions of membership.

[Mr. Tiger]

you proved my point, too many damn stipulations, not worth it

If the NCAA doesn't want to include an eligible team from the SWAC that's their choice. But in Jackson State's long playoff history we have NEVER been left out of the playoffs when our record was 8-3 or better. And the NCAA has taken JSU before despite the Tigers not winning the conference. That's because JSU has always been in support of the playoffs and usually plays a challenging non-conference schedule. But it is not greatly important to us. If the NCAA choose not to -- big deal. My point was a SWAC school could be chosen and the second team in the East could actually be the second best team in the entire conference if the West is having a down season. You just haven't seen this play out yet because JSU is fresh off three losing seasons and before that three 7-4 seasons.

And the answer to my earlier questions is that Division I-AA football is segregated because there is only one HBCU football program in the ENTIRE country in a traditional white conference while there is no traditional white football program in an HBCU conference. So to say the Sheridan Poll is should be discontinued and use segregation as your argument and then ignore the facts about Division I-AA football is being plain old xidiotx

[*****]

... Division I-AA football is segregated because there is only one HBCU football program in the ENTIRE country in a traditional white conference while there is no traditional white football program in an HBCU conference...That is just silly. An HBCU in your term "traditional white conference" means integration. No "traditional white" team in an HBCU conference means segregation. Is that the point you were trying to make?

[Mr. Tiger]

That is just silly. An HBCU in your term "traditional white conference" means integration. No "traditional white" team in an HBCU conference means segregation. Is that the point you were trying to make?

No. You missed my point or I didn't get my point across correctly. I'm saying the entire system is segregated. There is no integration on either side. There are no traditional white programs in the SWAC or MEAC and there are no HBCUs (outside of Tenn. State) in traditional white conferences.

[*****]

No. You missed my point or I didn't get my point across correctly. I'm saying the entire system is segregated. There is no integration on either side. There are no traditional white programs in the SWAC or MEAC and there are no HBCUs (outside of Tenn. State) in traditional white conferences.Then you are seemingly saying the SWAC and MEAC are segregated? Plus, I believe HBCU means historically, not currently. I believe all conferences are integrated.

[Mr. Tiger]

Segregation has many definitions.

seg·re·ga·tion (sgr-gshn) KEY

NOUN:
1. The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.

2. The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.

3. The act or process of isolating.

The one you are speaking of Ralph is Number 2. The segregation I speak of is Number 3 the act of isolating. The SWAC and MEAC do not seek to expand their conferences by luring traditional white schools to join, while traditional white conferences such the Southland and Southern Conference don't attempt to lure HBCUs in their expansions. (These are acts or processes of isolation). All schools are integrated by law. The Sheridian Poll falls under Number 3. It isolates the HBCUs and crowns a champ from those schools.

[*****]

Segregation has many definitions.

seg·re·ga·tion (sgr-gshn) KEY

NOUN:
1. The act or process of segregating or the condition of being segregated.

2. The policy or practice of separating people of different races, classes, or ethnic groups, as in schools, housing, and public or commercial facilities, especially as a form of discrimination.

3. The act or process of isolating.

The one you are speaking of Ralph is Number 2. The segregation I speak of is Number 3 the act of isolating. The SWAC and MEAC do not seek to expand their conferences by luring traditional white schools to join, while traditional white conferences such the Southland and Southern Conference don't attempt to lure HBCUs in their expansions. (These are acts or processes of isolation). All schools are integrated by law. The Sheridian Poll falls under Number 3. It isolates the HBCUs and crowns a champ from those schools.Okay. So you are saying the SWAC and MEAC are segregated by choice. I haven't seen any facts on any conference expansion plans in this case. Thanks.

[AppGuy04]

Mr. Tiger,

So you are telling me that Appalchian State or Montana(disregarding location)would be welcome in the SWAC? Somehow I find that hard to believe

[Catmendue2]

Mr. Tiger,

So you are telling me that Appalchian State or Montana(disregarding location)would be welcome in the SWAC? Somehow I find that hard to believe


The SWAC would welcome any Southland team, in a heartbeat. There was an attempt to bring Centenary into the fold just a few year ago, but plans fell through because they were a non football playing school.

[AppGuy04]

The SWAC would welcome any Southland team, in a heartbeat. There was an attempt to bring Centenary into the fold just a few year ago, but plans fell through because they were a non football playing school.

I understand what you are saying, but there is a big difference between a Centenary and a Montana. I guess my real question is, what exactly defines a PWC? Is there some quota I'm not aware of? Or is it any school thats NOT an HBCU?

[lucchesicourt]

What the hell is a traditional "white" conference these days? I bet if you checked the ratio of minorities to whites in these so called TWC, it would be above the actual ratio of whites to minorities in the current population.

[89Hen]

Jackson State's long playoff history we have NEVER...
won a game. :eek:

[89Hen]

Hey Mach, got anything on the SN poll yet? Still waiting to see how it can be seen as racist.

*bumpety bump bump*

Mach, you there? :confused: : smh :

[Cap'n Cat]

won a game. :eek:

89Hen

Post Of The Day!!!!!!


:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

[Mr. C]

won a game. :eek:
You are so ... bad.

[Jafus (Thinker)]

Shaking My Head!!!