"Evil Empire" Strikes Again

[GeauxLions94]

Bobby Abreu and Cory Lidle to the Yankees.

Yankees-Phillies Play Let's Make a Deal (http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/news;_ylt=Ale1RhsG5vNhMdf0B.turAs5nYcB?slug=ap-phillies-yankeestrade&prov=ap&type=lgns)

[TexasTerror]

The 'Evil Empire' needs to figure out other ways to win...

Another early exit looms in 2006!

[AppGuy04]

they do not need more offense, and Lidle is not a good pitcher in the AL

[bluehenbillk]

If Yankees fans get on A-Rod for his lack of clutch performance wait till they get a whiff of Bobby. I heard when the trade was announced yesterday in Yankee Stadium it was booed?

[lucchesicourt]

I actually enjoy watching Steinbrenner spend millions and continue losing. Sure he has the best bunch of losers money can buy, so who cares. It's about winning. The only real winners on this team are Jeter and Musina. The rest are all about the money, really doesn't matter to them if they win or lose. They are still getting paid and are happy whether they win or lose.

[GannonFan]

The Yanks aren't going anywhere - even if they make the postseason this year, which is still not a sure thing with the way the Twins have been playing of late, they don't have the starting pitching to win in the playoffs, where starting pitching is the difference between winning and losing. Mussina is the only solid guy on the staff right now and he's nowhere near the Mussina of old. Randy Johnson is rapidly approaching the end of his career and can't be counted on for anything in the postseason, Wang is a decent pitcher but unproven in a real pressure cooker, and that's it. Lidle could actually be the 4th best starter on that team and if he's got a high 4.00 ERA right now you can add another run or two going over to the American League. Getting Abreu helps them a little bit because he will get on base for them and it gives them someone to play until Sheffield comes back (if he comes back) - but they are fatally short of starting pitching, especially the playoff variety kind, and if they make the postseason they're looking at an early exit versus anyone who they would play.

[Ivytalk]

Not a great trade for the Phils, either. We got four "prospects" -- and I use the term very loosely -- in exchange for two established players. None of the four is "tearing it up" in the minors. And, for even worse news, see the Manuel thread.

[GannonFan]

Things are so broken right now with the Phillies I can stomach not getting anybody but very young prospects (one guy's a year out of high school and the two Venezuelans are 18 and 20 years old). And losing Leidel isn't the end of the world - his contract was up at the end of the year so we probably wouldn't have had him next year anyway, and really, he's a 4 or 5 starter anyway so what are you losing? Fact is, Abreu was all but untradable due to the ghost of Ed Wade and his bungling of contracts by grossly overpaying for both Abreu and Burrell, the latter of which if he can be traded will be the greatest bit of work Gillick has ever done. I would've loved to get a hot prospect closer to the majors than these guys are, but Wade's contracts were so abysmal you have to take what you can get. With that said, this team, minus Abreu, isn't more than 2 good starting pitchers away from being decent. That's a lot but obviously starting pitching is what baseball's all about. I like Myers, and I like the potential of Hamels. After that it gets questionable. Leiber is a decent #3 if they keep him, Madsen is probably not much more than a spot starter, Wolf would be a good fit if he's healthy. We'll see about this Mathieson kid now that he's called up. I don't think they make a Zito run (although that would be fun if they did) but getting at least one credible starter in the offseason has to be priority one for Gillick.

[AppGuy04]

I mean, what kind of team pays a player to waive his no trade clause?

[bluehenbillk]

You won't know if this deal was good for the Phillies until about a year from now, when you can see where that $$ went to. Abreu will cost the Yankees more in payroll next year than any other player at more than $19M. (E-Rod gets paid 15M by NYY & 10M by Texas still).

[AppGuy04]

Enjoy NY, all you're getting is a high priced walk machine

[CollegeSportsInfo]

they do not need more offense, and Lidle is not a good pitcher in the AL

Perhaps. But few teams could lose 3 all-stars such as Gary Sheffield, Hideki Matsui and Robinson Cano along with their top middle relief pitcher Sturtze and not have Pavano at all this season and STILL be a stones-throw from 1st place and a back-and-forth lead with the World Series champion White Sox for the Wild Card.

The truth is people can hate on Abreu for his lack of production over the past 170 games. And you can dismiss Lidle as a top line pticher. But Abreu is being looked at to spare Bernie Williams from the burden of full-time play. Lidle is being asked to replace Ponson as the 5th starter. But at the expense of zero major leaguers and not one of the top 2 prospects, it's hard to say this is a bad move for the Yankees to make. Losing Jeter's heir in Henry is tough, but the other 3 prospects are not considered to be potential star major leaguers.

[GannonFan]

Perhaps. But few teams could lose 3 all-stars such as Gary Sheffield, Hideki Matsui and Robinson Cano along with their top middle relief pitcher Sturtze and not have Pavano at all this season and STILL be a stones-throw from 1st place and a back-and-forth lead with the World Series champion White Sox for the Wild Card.

The truth is people can hate on Abreu for his lack of production over the past 170 games. And you can dismiss Lidle as a top line pticher. But Abreu is being looked at to spare Bernie Williams from the burden of full-time play. Lidle is being asked to replace Ponson as the 5th starter. But at the expense of zero major leaguers and not one of the top 2 prospects, it's hard to say this is a bad move for the Yankees to make. Losing Jeter's heir in Henry is tough, but the other 3 prospects are not considered to be potential star major leaguers.

Not too many teams have payrolls well over $200M as well so it's hard to give the Yanks much credit for staying in the race. As for Abreu, there's a lot of speculation that he's Sheffield's replacement as the Yanks probably won't sign him in the off-season. They are certainly looking at Abreu as an everyday player, not just a platoon with Williams. As for the prospects, who knows, 3 of them, including Henry, are as young as you get so no one will know much about these guys for another year or two at least.

[AppGuy04]

Not too many teams have payrolls well over $200M as well so it's hard to give the Yanks much credit for staying in the race. As for Abreu, there's a lot of speculation that he's Sheffield's replacement as the Yanks probably won't sign him in the off-season. They are certainly looking at Abreu as an everyday player, not just a platoon with Williams. As for the prospects, who knows, 3 of them, including Henry, are as young as you get so no one will know much about these guys for another year or two at least.

exactly, with that budget, they should be blowing people away

[GannonFan]

exactly, with that budget, they should be blowing people away

And that's what makes their struggle this year just to make the playoffs so much fun - "which All-Star do we put in the lineup to replace the other All-Star who just got hurt?" - too many bandwagon fans since 1996 who don't have any idea what it is to root for a team without bottomless financial capability. But with all that money they've lost sight of what won them the World Series titles back when they did (for a payroll team like the Yanks having not won a WS ring in 5 years (probably 6 after this year) must be pain staking) - starting pitching. Mussina/Johnson/Wang/Wright just ain't going to get it done in the postseason.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Not too many teams have payrolls well over $200M as well so it's hard to give the Yanks much credit for staying in the race. As for Abreu, there's a lot of speculation that he's Sheffield's replacement as the Yanks probably won't sign him in the off-season. They are certainly looking at Abreu as an everyday player, not just a platoon with Williams. As for the prospects, who knows, 3 of them, including Henry, are as young as you get so no one will know much about these guys for another year or two at least.

I did not infer that Bobby would platoon with Bernie. But his addition will give Williams some more time off, along with Melky in the event that neither Matsui or Sheffield returns.

The simple point is that regardless of payroll, the team has been without 3 of their best players, as well as Pavano (who was counted on highly when signed) and Sturze who was their prized middle relief pitcher. Take away this caliber of player from any of the other top 5 spending teams (Boston, LA Angels, White Sox, Mets) and just being in the race would be viewed as a positive.

[AppGuy04]

And that's what makes their struggle this year just to make the playoffs so much fun - "which All-Star do we put in the lineup to replace the other All-Star who just got hurt?" - too many bandwagon fans since 1996 who don't have any idea what it is to root for a team without bottomless financial capability. But with all that money they've lost sight of what won them the World Series titles back when they did (for a payroll team like the Yanks having not won a WS ring in 5 years (probably 6 after this year) must be pain staking) - starting pitching. Mussina/Johnson/Wang/Wright just ain't going to get it done in the postseason.

In most parks, what they are doing would work, because HR's and offense puts butts into seats, but Yankee fans are whole nother animal, they only care about winning, and for some reason, they think that they can by outscoring people.

[HiHiYikas]

exactly, with that budget, they should be blowing people away
I think there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to payroll. Experts know better than to assume that a team with a payroll 257% that of MLB average is going to have 102% more wins than a team with a payroll at 155% league average. In fact, they currently have 1.6% fewer wins.

Evil Empire is an easy target, but I didn't hear too many people say "well, the Red Sox bought a title" in 2005, when Evil Empire Jr. turned a 166% payroll edge over the Cardinals into a World Series sweep.

[AppGuy04]

I think there's a point of diminishing returns when it comes to payroll. Experts know better than to assume that a team with a payroll 257% that of MLB average is going to have 102% more wins than a team with a payroll at 155% league average. In fact, they currently have 1.6% fewer wins.

Evil Empire is an easy target, but I didn't hear too many people say "well, the Red Sox bought a title" in 2005, when Evil Empire Jr. turned a 166% payroll edge over the Cardinals into a World Series sweep.

b/c the Red Sox still had a lower payroll than the Yanks when they won

[GannonFan]

b/c the Red Sox still had a lower payroll than the Yanks when they won

And people did talk about that saying that the Red Sox won by becoming what they most despised (i.e. big spenders like the Yanks). But the tag of Evil Empire Jr. didn't stick because, like you said, the Red Sox are much closer to the rest of MLB than to the Yanks when it comes to size of the payroll. The Red Sox are within reach payroll-wise of most of the top 10 in payroll - only the Yankees are in their own stratosphere in this regard.

[GannonFan]

I did not infer that Bobby would platoon with Bernie. But his addition will give Williams some more time off, along with Melky in the event that neither Matsui or Sheffield returns.

The simple point is that regardless of payroll, the team has been without 3 of their best players, as well as Pavano (who was counted on highly when signed) and Sturze who was their prized middle relief pitcher. Take away this caliber of player from any of the other top 5 spending teams (Boston, LA Angels, White Sox, Mets) and just being in the race would be viewed as a positive.


I can't give them too much credit for Pavano - he was hurt all last year and hadn't shown much that he would be healthy again this year. Last year they would've gotten a pass, this year they were naive to think he'd be 100%. Sturze is a great example of why the Yankees aren't winning titles anymore - this guy was never the stud middle relief guy they made him out to be - they took an average guy and tried to sell him as something more than he was, just average. Their inability to use all that money to land solid pitchers (more a reflection of scouting if you ask me - Jaret Wright is another example - they should've known after seeing him degrade in Cleveland that he wasn't the answer for their pitching woes) has been their downfall.

[AppGuy04]

I can't give them too much credit for Pavano - he was hurt all last year and hadn't shown much that he would be healthy again this year. Last year they would've gotten a pass, this year they were naive to think he'd be 100%. Sturze is a great example of why the Yankees aren't winning titles anymore - this guy was never the stud middle relief guy they made him out to be - they took an average guy and tried to sell him as something more than he was, just average. Their inability to use all that money to land solid pitchers (more a reflection of scouting if you ask me - Jaret Wright is another example - they should've known after seeing him degrade in Cleveland that he wasn't the answer for their pitching woes) has been their downfall.

Ponson as well

[HiHiYikas]

b/c the Red Sox still had a lower payroll than the Yanks when they won
I'm not talking about the Yankees and Red Sox. I'm talking about the Cardinals and Red Sox. You go into a 7-game series with a 166% payroll edge, and, by the reasoning of the average Yankee hater, you had better blow the competition away. 9 out of 10 times, that's part of what's called buying a title.

In the Yankees last 4 World Series titles, they had payroll advantages of 108%, 128%, 115%, and 114% over the NL pennant-winners.

Bottom line is that payroll doesn't matter when it comes to winning titles. All but 1 of the World Series titles this century have gone to the pennant-winning team with the lower payroll. The Red Sox are the only team in that span who turned a World-Series payroll advantage into a title. They're also the only 100-million-dollar team to win a World Series. With Boston's title in the mix, the average title winner has been at a 12% payroll disadvantage to the opposing pennant winner. Take Boston's "bought" title out of the mix, and the disadvantage drops to 29%.

[GannonFan]

Ponson as well

That was just a desperate stab - they couldn't have been serious about thinking he was going to do much. But then again, only the Yanks can afford such luxuries as giving such a long-shot a chance.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

And people did talk about that saying that the Red Sox won by becoming what they most despised (i.e. big spenders like the Yanks). But the tag of Evil Empire Jr. didn't stick because, like you said, the Red Sox are much closer to the rest of MLB than to the Yanks when it comes to size of the payroll. The Red Sox are within reach payroll-wise of most of the top 10 in payroll - only the Yankees are in their own stratosphere in this regard.

It's funny how quickly people forget the years when the Red Sox and Dodgers both had higher payrolls than the Yankees...who were a playoff team.

[dirtbag]

I actually enjoy watching Steinbrenner spend millions and continue losing. Sure he has the best bunch of losers money can buy, so who cares. It's about winning. The only real winners on this team are Jeter and Musina. The rest are all about the money, really doesn't matter to them if they win or lose. They are still getting paid and are happy whether they win or lose.

Is it a coincidence that Mussina is the highest-paid pitcher in MLB this season, and Jeter is the highest-paid shortstop?

[dirtbag]

I'm not talking about the Yankees and Red Sox. I'm talking about the Cardinals and Red Sox. You go into a 7-game series with a 166% payroll edge, and, by the reasoning of the average Yankee hater, you had better blow the competition away. 9 out of 10 times, that's part of what's called buying a title.



You're not a math major, are you?http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397

That's not a 166% edge, that's a 66% advantage.

And the point that others are trying to make to you is that you're not
"buying the title" when you have to beat a team that has a 46% payroll edge to get there. Or a 146% edge, by your math.

[HiHiYikas]

You're not a math major, are you?http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1778397

That's not a 166% edge, that's a 66% advantage.

And the point that others are trying to make to you is that you're not
"buying the title" when you have to beat a team that has a 46% payroll edge to get there. Or a 146% edge, by your math.
Clearly, I am not a math major. To quote one of my friends, "I'm in seminary because it's the only graduate program I could find with no math requirements!"

In my case, the primary error is syntactical rather than mathematical. I intended to say Boston had 166% the payroll St. Louis had, not that they had a 166% payroll advantage. I intended to say something like that multiple times, but got caught up in a pattern of incorrect syntax.

I'm also a bit off with the numbers. Boston's advantage in 2004 was 53%. The fact remains it's the largest monetary advantage for a champion since 1993.

All that aside, what I'm really saying is that all accusations of title buying are bogus, as are comments like "well, with that payroll, the Yankees should be winning the division." By that logic, the 2004 World Series sweep is unimpressive, since it came in one the most one-sided payroll matchups of the past 15 years.

And check http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseball/salaries/totalpayroll.aspx?year=2006 - for more information than espn gives. These numbers go all the way back to 1988, when the current champion White Sox had a whopping $5.9 million team payroll.

[AppGuy04]

Symantics my friends

[bluehenbillk]

The AL East will be fun down the stretch, the Yanks & Sox play each other 9 more times baby.

[GannonFan]

It's funny how quickly people forget the years when the Red Sox and Dodgers both had higher payrolls than the Yankees...who were a playoff team.

And when was that? It's easy to forget things that happened awhile ago. Heck, the Phillies were good in 1993 but the resulting years of slop have clouded my memory of that year.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Symantics my friends Now THAT was funny. Good one.

[Ivytalk]

Bobby Abreu went 0 for 3 with a walk and a run scored, but he hustled for a change!:rolleyes:

I predict Lidle will be lit up like a Roman candle in his first start. He'll be eating ice cream early that night!:p

[AppGuy04]

I hope Abreu goes 0-fer for a month and Yankee fans boo him instead of ERod

[bluehenbillk]

With Varitek out at least 4 weeks I'd swing the pendulum in favor of the Evil Empire.

[AppGuy04]

With Varitek out at least 4 weeks I'd swing the pendulum in favor of the Evil Empire.

couldn't have happened at a worse time

[dirtbag]

With Varitek out at least 4 weeks I'd swing the pendulum in favor of the Evil Empire.

Boston's season has gone to hell in the last couple of weeks with the Abreu trade and the Varitek injury.

Philly handed the AL East title to NY, and the Yankees didn't even have to give up a decent prospect for it. That Reds-Nats trade was truly horrible, but this one was even more lopsided. It was worse than the Oakland A's trades in the 70's that Bowie Kuhn put the kibosh on.

With all the pitching that the Tigers, Twins, and ChiSox have, I don't see how two of them don't make the playoffs.

Meanwhile, Varitek is gone for at least a month, David Wells has proven to be worse than worthless, and Wakefield is on the DL. Boston will be handing too many starts to other teams' AAA castoffs. Wouldn't be surprised if Lowell and Gonzales come back to earth.

[JoltinJoe]

Bobby Abreu went 0 for 3 with a walk and a run scored, but he hustled for a change!:rolleyes:

I predict Lidle will be lit up like a Roman candle in his first start. He'll be eating ice cream early that night!:p

Any other predictions, Ivytalk?:)

As Yogi Berra once said, "it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."

[JoltinJoe]

Philly handed the AL East title to NY, and the Yankees didn't even have to give up a decent prospect for it.

Uh, let's not forget Jerry Colangelo in November 2003 -- after trying to get Soriano, Nick Johnson, and other top prospects from the Yankees -- sent Curt Schilling to the Red Sox in a blue Tiffany box in the most intentionally lopsided deal in baseball history. This was done for no reason other than to piss off George Steinbrenner.

The Sox gave up the great Casey Fossum and other lesser luminaries to the Diamondbacks in order to give this sham the appearance of being a trade.

The great Bud Selig sat on his hands, figuring that if a sham transaction like this hurt the Yankees, it was good for baseball. At least Colangelo's partners made him pay for this farce by forcing him out as managing general partner.

[dirtbag]

Uh, let's not forget Jerry Colangelo in November 2003 -- after trying to get Soriano, Nick Johnson, and other top prospects from the Yankees -- sent Curt Schilling to the Red Sox in a blue Tiffany box in the most intentionally lopsided deal in baseball history. This was done for no reason other than to piss off George Steinbrenner.

The Sox gave up the great Casey Fossum and other lesser luminaries to the Diamondbacks in order to give this sham the appearance of being a trade.



I have no way (nor does anyone else) of verifying what AZ wanted from the Yankees, but the Sox gave up three good prospects who were all already in the majors or soon in the majors.

Fossum was a 1st-round pick in 1999 who made it to the majors in 2001. He wasn't a bad spot starter for the Sox for a couple of years and was only 25 when traded. He had been considered untouchable by the Sox in previous trade negotiations.

Brandon Lyon saved nine games at the age of 23 for Boston in 2003. He was AZ's closer for a while, but has had serious arm problems.

Jorge de la Rosa also went to AZ and was spun to the Brewers in another trade. He made his ML debut in 2004 at the age of 23.

These guys haven't panned out, but all three were considered very good major-league-ready prospects. That trade had a chance to pay off for AZ.

Meanwhile, the Yankees gave up four minor-leaguers. The only one who has played above low A-ball is a 27-year-old AAA reliever. That's pitiful. That's nothing but a salary dump.

[Ivytalk]

Any other predictions, Ivytalk?:)

As Yogi Berra once said, "it's tough to make predictions, especially about the future."

Sure, Joe! Lidle will get torched in his next start!:p

And the Yankees will win the AL East.:nod:

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Sure, Joe! Lidle will get torched in his next start!:p

And the Yankees will win the AL East.:nod:

As the #5 starter. Lidle only needs to be better than Sidney Ponson (xlolx). If he's better than Wright, that would be a HUGE bonus.

[AppGuy04]

As the #5 starter. Lidle only needs to be better than Sidney Ponson (xlolx). If he's better than Wright, that would be a HUGE bonus.

better than Wright? that ain't saying much

[CollegeSportsInfo]

As a #4 option, you can't complain about either Lidle or Wright when you look at some of the other #4 pitchers out there...especially when Randy Johnson is your #3.

[Gil Dobie]

Twins lost #2 Liriano to the DL, but are calling up Matt Garza to pitch Friday. Garza has gone from A ball to the Majors this season.

[bodoyle]

Twins lost #2 Liriano to the DL

:nod: :hurray:

Rot in hell Minnesota!!!!

[Gil Dobie]

:nod: :hurray:

Rot in hell Minnesota!!!!

Hey, I am a Detroit Tigers fan first, Twins fan third. :D