How Much Longer...

[superman7515]

Sam Houston State got the monkey off their back last night, but with NDSU favored versus UNI, how much longer can you keep voting for teams with no D1 wins? For example, as of last week's How They Fared page, there were still votes for Chattanooga, Liberty, Idaho State, Northern Colorado, and Stephen F. Austin as well... So when is time up for teams without a D1 win?

[darell1976]

Sam Houston State got the monkey off their back last night, but with NDSU favored versus UNI, how much longer can you keep voting for teams with no D1 wins? For example, as of last week's How They Fared page, there were still votes for Chattanooga, Liberty, Idaho State, Northern Colorado, and Stephen F. Austin as well... So when is time up for teams without a D1 win?

Seriously?? Who voted for them.

[superman7515]

I don't know, I just went back and looked at the How They Fared thread. They might not have gotten any votes for this last poll, but they were still getting them the week before. I was just using the example.

[darell1976]

I don't know, I just went back and looked at the How They Fared thread. They might not have gotten any votes for this last poll, but they were still getting them the week before. I was just using the example.

I would think with their history over the last few years they wouldn't get any votes until things look very promising (beating BSC teams, winning record, etc).

[narc]

Sam Houston State got the monkey off their back last night, but with NDSU favored versus UNI, how much longer can you keep voting for teams with no D1 wins? For example, as of last week's How They Fared page, there were still votes for Chattanooga, Liberty, Idaho State, Northern Colorado, and Stephen F. Austin as well... So when is time up for teams without a D1 win?

Perhaps the pollsters could declare any ballot that ranks a team with a losing record to be invalid after week 4?

[superman7515]

Bump.....

[bojeta]

Maybe someone knew more than the rest of us: Chatt 28 Citadel 10 I was shocked!

[superman7515]

I'm not singling out any specific school, just the premise in general.

[bojeta]

I'm not singling out any specific school, just the premise in general.

Not disagreeing with you at all. I was just truly shocked by the Citadel loss. They were starting to look like theee team.

[Hammerhead]

UNI's losses are to two Big Ten teams and the top two teams in the AGS rankings. For all we know, they could be the third best team in the FCS. ;)

[TheRevSFA]

SFA won

[clenz]

UNI's losses are to two Big Ten teams and the top two teams in the AGS rankings. For all we know, they could be the third best team in the FCS. ;)
If people don't want to vote for UNI...fine.

I can think of 1...maybe two...teams that MIGHT have a better record that UNI at this point.


It's always an interesting debate - should teams be ranked on how good they've played....you know actually ranking the top 25 teams....or based on wins. Hell, Drake and San Diego are better than UNI....right? I mean, they have more wins.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If people don't want to vote for UNI...fine.

I can think of 1...maybe two...teams that MIGHT have a better record that UNI at this point.


It's always an interesting debate - should teams be ranked on how good they've played....you know actually ranking the top 25 teams....or based on wins. Hell, Drake and San Diego are better than UNI....right? I mean, they have more wins.

If you have any integrity you can not rank UNI or Montana based on the record. It doesn't matter how good the teams they've faced are. If they are good they have at least one signature win at this point to hang their hat on.

UNI hasn't beaten either of the two good FCS teams they've face and Montana hasn't beaten the three good ones they have faced.

Could either of those teams work their way back in? Sure. They don't deserve the vote this week I don't care you try and say it. UNI has less to stand on record wise than Montana and Montana has nothing to stand on.

[clenz]

If you have any integrity you can not rank UNI or Montana based on the record. It doesn't matter how good the teams they've faced are. If they are good they have at least one signature win at this point to hang their hat on.

UNI hasn't beaten either of the two good FCS teams they've face and Montana hasn't beaten the three good ones they have faced.

Could either of those teams work their way back in? Sure. They don't deserve the vote this week I don't care you try and say it. UNI has less to stand on record wise than Montana and Montana has nothing to stand on.
So...you're saying that you believe Drake is better than UNI, since they have more wins....and all that matters is wins....

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So...you're saying that you believe Drake is better than UNI, since they have more wins....and all that matters is wins....

No, I don't think they are better. That isn't even the pooint.

UNI does not have a single win that they can hang their hat on is all I'm saying and they are very unlikely to be around in the end to prove otherwise. You need to win at least one D1 game in the first 5 weeks of the season to be in the list of consideration and your schedule just did not allow that.

UNI is a good team, there isn't any doubt about that but you need to win at least ONE game to bbe in the discussion. Did you think SUU should have been ranked when they had the brutal schedule in 2007? They had the most brutal schedule in fCS, didn't win any games, played people real tough...not a top 25 ranking however.

Much like you can schedule yourselves out of the playoffs, you can also schedule yourselves out of the top 25.

It sucks dude but a case can not be made that they should be ranked without sifting through the absolute gravel of logic to do so.

Good team, schedule took them out too early unfortunately.

[clenz]

No, I don't think they are better. That isn't even the pooint.

UNI does not have a single win that they can hang their hat on is all I'm saying and they are very unlikely to be around in the end to prove otherwise. You need to win at least one D1 game in the first 5 weeks of the season to be in the list of consideration and your schedule just did not allow that.

UNI is a good team, there isn't any doubt about that but you need to win at least ONE game to bbe in the discussion. Did you think SUU should have been ranked when they had the brutal schedule in 2007? They had the most brutal schedule in fCS, didn't win any games, played people real tough...not a top 25 ranking however.

Much like you can schedule yourselves out of the playoffs, you can also schedule yourselves out of the top 25.

It sucks dude but a case can not be made that they should be ranked without sifting through the absolute gravel of logic to do so.

Good team, schedule took them out too early unfortunately.
I believe you vote for teh top 25 teams by actually voting for the 25 best teams....If one of the 25 best teams happens to have played 2 Big 10 schools, @ the #3 team in the nation, and vs. the #1 team in the nation (who has 1 loss in their last 20 or so games) and didn't find a W that doesn't mean they aren't one of the 25 best teams...average loss by 1 possession

I wouldn't say UNI is top 10, or even 15. However, to find 25 teams that are legitimately better than UNI is next to impossible....unless you rank records and not a teams actual performance.

If that is how polls want to run, then fine.....I thought polls were the 25 best teams though.

I'd have both Montana and UNI in my poll this week, if I voted.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I believe you vote for teh top 25 teams by actually voting for the 25 best teams....If one of the 25 best teams happens to have played 2 Big 10 schools, @ the #3 team in the nation, and vs. the #1 team in the nation (who has 1 loss in their last 20 or so games) and didn't find a W that doesn't mean they aren't one of the 25 best teams...average loss by 1 possession

I wouldn't say UNI is top 10, or even 15. However, to find 25 teams that are legitimately better than UNI is next to impossible....unless you rank records and not a teams actual performance.

If that is how polls want to run, then fine.....I thought polls were the 25 best teams though.

I'd have both Montana and UNI in my poll this week, if I voted.

I'm not getting the point accross I guess. Everyone has different ways of doing things. My way takes into account who they played and all that. But if a team doesn't have a single win then that has to carry some weight as well.

Is UNI one of the top 25 teams in the country...how could we know. They've played tough no doubt but no tougher than a team like Albany played Youngstown but Albany who is not highly ranked has wins against some good teams to base your thinking on.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

UNI and Montana should not be in the top 25 this week.

If they are it just proves these polls are not worth a damn.............just like I have always thought they were.

The only sure thing is NDSU is the best team in the country and it isnt even arguable.

[clenz]

I'm not getting the point accross I guess. Everyone has different ways of doing things. My way takes into account who they played and all that. But if a team doesn't have a single win then that has to carry some weight as well.

Is UNI one of the top 25 teams in the country...how could we know. They've played tough no doubt but no tougher than a team like Albany played Youngstown but Albany who is not highly ranked has wins against some good teams to base your thinking on.And I'd put Albany as a top 25 team.


I know people hate computer polls and what not, but UNI has the 12th toughest schedule in all of college football according to Sagarin....

I'd rank the best teams, not the best records.....

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

The problem with UNI is that the only thing they have proven is that they know how to lose close games. We are all aware of the faults of the transitive property in sports, so all you can base things on is what is done on the field. Many teams, like ODU, have played relatively light schedules, and have done what it takes to win. When you look at the top 25 right now, there are many schools that are worthy over UNI.

For example, my favorite team of the year is Eastern Illinois. They pounded Austin Peay, and averaging like 50-60 points / game, who is to argue they are worse than UNI? Another example is Lehigh. Not super impressive in style points, but they are getting the job done. To rank teams based on appearance is too much like a popularity contest. Given equal records, you look at the body of work. I have some teams lower ranked despite good records, like Illinois St. But at 4 losses at the end of September, I don't care how hard your schedule is/was, you do not deserve a top 25 ranking. Too many other teams winning, including those not named Drake.

[clenz]

Name me 25 teams you'd put 1000 bucks down to beat uni or montana in a game tomorrow

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

I think it has to be a combination of both wins and records.

Montana has a tough schedule the first part of the year and they have lost all of the tough games they are not a top 25 team right now in any way shape or form. They are horrible bad.

Be fair dont be a homer

[CopperCat]

Drake is not a top 25 team. But UNI is also not a top 25 team. See ^^^^^.

[CopperCat]

Name me 25 teams you'd put 1000 bucks down to beat uni or montana in a game tomorrow

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2

There aren't 25 FCS teams that could beat UNI. But there are probably 5-10 who could.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think it has to be a combination of both wins and records.



That's exactly what I've been trying to say. You have got to have something other than conjecture to base your top 25 picks on.

At this point I don't know that UNI or Montana could beat anyone else in the 25 in a home and home series and one game at a nuetral site let along one game at a nuetral site.

Now I'd like to think we would but at this point can I say I truly believe that either of these teams are better than the other 25 teams...I can not say that with any level of certainty.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

My poll is already in and I dont have Montana UNI or Drake in my top 25

[frozennorth]

If you have any integrity you can not rank UNI or Montana based on the record. It doesn't matter how good the teams they've faced are. If they are good they have at least one signature win at this point to hang their hat on.

UNI hasn't beaten either of the two good FCS teams they've face and Montana hasn't beaten the three good ones they have faced.

Could either of those teams work their way back in? Sure. They don't deserve the vote this week I don't care you try and say it. UNI has less to stand on record wise than Montana and Montana has nothing to stand on.
uni has played 4 teams better than the best team montana has played, not exactly a fair comparison.

there is likely only one team that would have a better record than UNI against UNI's schedule, and there are only a handful that wouldn't have been repeatedly demolished. I won't be sure until I go through, but UNI will likely remain in or near my top 10, having performed better than I thought they would when I first put them in the top10.

[dbackjon]

How do you know NDSU or YSU are the best teams? Or WI or IA are that good ?

[UNIFanSince1983]

We are not currently a Top 25 team. Can we earn our way back in? Of course. There is no guarantee at this point we will though. Our defense looks horrible. The front 7 has gotten better against the run, but they cannot pressure the passer and no corner can cover for 10 seconds.

[semobison]

There aren't 25 FCS teams that could beat UNI. But there are probably 5-10 who could.



Agreed! For each voter its who you think the best 25 teams are. Polls, schmolls!

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Name me 25 teams you'd put 1000 bucks down to beat uni or montana in a game tomorrow

Sent from my SCH-I500 using Tapatalk 2


Not many top 25 teams could beat UNI. Maybe 3 or 4

UNI will run the table and finish 7-4. That D2 game is a killer.

[LakesBison]

How much longer does ndsu stay in fcs

[AmsterBison]

Plenty of time to vote teams into the Top 25 once they start winning games.

For example, UNI is a good team but they will (and should) have to claw their way back into the rankings.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

uni has played 4 teams better than the best team montana has played, not exactly a fair comparison.

there is likely only one team that would have a better record than UNI against UNI's schedule, and there are only a handful that wouldn't have been repeatedly demolished. I won't be sure until I go through, but UNI will likely remain in or near my top 10, having performed better than I thought they would when I first put them in the top10.

Says who? You may think that, MVFC has a tradition of overvaluing themselves. I do think NDSU are YSU are at the top in the country right now but that is because they have proven it. You need to earn it with wins not speculation because a team has played well but lost every game they've plaed against D1 competition.

It is absolutely pathetic if you are giving a team a ranking that is unearned because they played well but have not yet won anything.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Plenty of time to vote teams into the Top 25 once they start winning games.

For example, UNI is a good team but they will (and should) have to claw their way back into the rankings.

Nailed it.

[frozennorth]

Says who? You may think that, MVFC has a tradition of overvaluing themselves. I do think NDSU are YSU are at the top in the country right now but that is because they have proven it. You need to earn it with wins not speculation because a team has played well but lost every game they've plaed against D1 competition. so do you agree or disagree that UNI has played 4 teams better than the best team montana has played?


It is absolutely pathetic if you are giving a team a ranking that is unearned because they played well but have not yet won anything.

My belief is that a poll should have a predictive value for future games. I've watched them twice now, and they look like a very solid team. They did drop into the mid-teens this time around, which I feel may have been a little low.

BTW, when did we start punishing teams in the rankings for close losses to fbs teams?

[darell1976]

so do you agree or disagree that UNI has played 4 teams better than the best team montana has played?



My belief is that a poll should have a predictive value for future games. I've watched them twice now, and they look like a very solid team. They did drop into the mid-teens this time around, which I feel may have been a little low.

BTW, when did we start punishing teams in the rankings for close losses to fbs teams?

So does that include UND's 8 point loss to San Diego State or are we the exception to your thought.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I'm not sure how you can defend voting for teams like Liberty but I have no problem with people voting for UNI.

Some of the wackiest AGS ballots I've seen this season are by people who try to go too much by record too early in the season. My philosophy of voting is to gradually weigh what happened the previous season less and less as the season goes on. UNI will be in my top 25 even though they will be in the high teens or low 20s. I don't think the MVFC is nearly as good as a lot of the homers on this board but UNI is one of the 25 best teams in the nation until I see some compelling reason to vote otherwise.

I do agree teams should drop for doing poorly against FBS teams, but at worst UNI's games against Wisconsin and Iowa only merit dropping a few slots. UNI was a top 10 in my preseason ballot and will be in the high teens or 20s this week. I think dropping them out for two close losses on the road is harsh.

On another note, I do think having UNI ranked in the top 15 is just too high and homerish, and there does seem to be a tinge of MVFC homerism in the polls (Illinois State being ranked so high will NAU is in the 20s, give me a break).

[ursus arctos horribilis]

so do you agree or disagree that UNI has played 4 teams better than the best team montana has played?



My belief is that a poll should have a predictive value for future games. I've watched them twice now, and they look like a very solid team. They did drop into the mid-teens this time around, which I feel may have been a little low.

BTW, when did we start punishing teams in the rankings for close losses to fbs teams?

I don't know what you are trying to say with your 4 teams being better. Of course they were. So what? If you had paid attention to what I said I also indicated that Montana should not be in there and that is with 2 D1 wins so why you are trying to compare to another team I said should be left out as well is beyond me.

They had a great chance to bouy themselves by taking down a top team at home and they went down in flames.

You apparently are a strong believer in participation badges and trophies but I just can't justify a team that is 0-4 and not gonna make the playoffs in the poll until they validate my thought that they are a good team.

Last year EWU was nearly out after 3 losses in a row and now UNI should be kept in after 4 losses? Not sure I understand that.

[Hammerhead]

Sagarin still has UNI as the 5th best team in the FCS.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt12.htm


Drake is not a top 25 team. But UNI is also not a top 25 team. See ^^^^^.

[Engineer86]

Sagarin still has UNI as the 5th best team in the FCS.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt12.htm

Yea and Harvard is the fourth best ... This tells me what?

[superman7515]

Sagarin still has UNI as the 5th best team in the FCS.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt12.htm

He also has Delaware better than New Hampshire. I disagree.

[MTfan4life]

Sagarin still has UNI as the 5th best team in the FCS.
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/fbt12.htm

The trick when looking at Sagarin ratings is looking for the words connected or not connected. If it's "not connected," then just keep on browsing online. Don't use it for any arguments for deciding who is a better team. Those words are posted on the site for a reason.

[AmsterBison]

So does that include UND's 8 point loss to San Diego State or are we the exception to your thought.

San Diego State. Iowa. Wisconsin. One of these three is not like the other ones. If you can't tell which, then you've been watching too much hockey. :)

UND is a better team than last year and that should be reason for celebration among ****** fans except, of course, that UND was ranked last year and this year is not. OTOH, it was last year that NDSU dropped a bunch of places in the poll for not beating BYE WEEK badly enough while UND rocketed up into the polls for losing to Fresno who lost to Nebraska. Of course, there was no connection between those occurrences. <= on bisonville, purple denotes sarcasm.

The moral: Don't worry about it - keep winning and things will work out.

[LakesBison]

tony is right, I love winning, dont you?

[frozennorth]

So does that include UND's 8 point loss to San Diego State or are we the exception to your thought.
UND spent 2 weeks in my top 25, and i almost put them in on a third.

[frozennorth]

I don't know what you are trying to say with your 4 teams being better. Of course they were. So what? If you had paid attention to what I said I also indicated that Montana should not be in there and that is with 2 D1 wins so why you are trying to compare to another team I said should be left out as well is beyond me.

They had a great chance to bouy themselves by taking down a top team at home and they went down in flames.

You apparently are a strong believer in participation badges and trophies but I just can't justify a team that is 0-4 and not gonna make the playoffs in the poll until they validate my thought that they are a good team.

Last year EWU was nearly out after 3 losses in a row and now UNI should be kept in after 4 losses? Not sure I understand that.

ewu lost to an awful south dakota team. They then went 6-1 down the stretch, vindicating everyone who kept them ranked.

I believe that rankings should have predictive value. The evidence that UNI is pretty good is pretty solid.

[clenz]

ewu lost to an awful south dakota team. They then went 6-1 down the stretch, vindicating everyone who kept them ranked.

I believe that rankings should have predictive value. The evidence that UNI is pretty good is pretty solid.The loss to USD is likely why most dropped EWU. UNI doesn't have a loss to a USD type team - that was a TURRIBLE loss

[MTfan4life]

ewu lost to an awful south dakota team. They then went 6-1 down the stretch, vindicating everyone who kept them ranked.

I believe that rankings should have predictive value. The evidence that UNI is pretty good is pretty solid.

South Dakota played one really bad fcs game against ISU-r but because of that they were awful in your mind. You still saw them as awful this season because of that one loss last season. What exactly made South Dakota so awful last year?

[clenz]

South Dakota played one really bad fcs game against ISU-r but because of that they were awful in your mind. You still saw them as awful this season because of that one loss last season. What exactly made South Dakota so awful last year?
USD was bad last year - likely will be again this year.

This year they have given up nearly 40 more first downs than they have earned, been outrushed 982-543, out passed by nearly 100 yards (out gained by a total of over 500 yards) and it's not going to get better as they have yet to play SDSU, NDSU, YSU, Indiana State, or UNI (oh, and those are all in consecutive weeks).

[frozennorth]

South Dakota played one really bad fcs game against ISU-r but because of that they were awful in your mind. You still saw them as awful this season because of that one loss last season. What exactly made South Dakota so awful last year?

3 wins against d1

[MTfan4life]

3 wins against d1

3 losses against fcs. 3-3, doesn't mean horrible.

Combined record of losses: 21-11
Combined record of 3 FCS wins: 16-17

Their three wins weren't exactly against the sisters of the poor.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

ewu lost to an awful south dakota team. They then went 6-1 down the stretch, vindicating everyone who kept them ranked.

I believe that rankings should have predictive value. The evidence that UNI is pretty good is pretty solid.

And I don't put a whole lot of weight on your predictive value theory. I believe it should show what you have done since this is not a preseason poll.

[344Johnson]

Win games against good teams, or a whole bunch against poor competition and you'll get in the polls. Lose games against good teams(but never win) and you won't be ranked. That is how polls work. If you ranked teams for how talented they are, you would see a very different top 25 than you do now.

[clenz]

These should be the top 11 ranked teams (not in this order necissarily) in the next poll....


Montana State
Cal Poly
ODU
Harvard
ISUR
NDSU
YSU
Tennessee State
Lehigh
Wofford
Alabama AM

The next teams should be:
NAU
Nova
JMU
EWU
Cornell
Howard
SDSU
Albany
Duquense
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
Jacksonville
Georgia Southern
Samford
McNeese State

Any poll not including Samford, Jacksonville, Lafayette, Duquense, Howard, Cornell, Villanova, Alabama AM, and Tennessee State is just ludicrous....all they do is win.


I've listed the 26 teams with the best records - these should be the top 26 in every single poll result this week.

[MTfan4life]

These should be the top 11 ranked teams (not in this order necissarily) in the next poll....


Montana State
Cal Poly
ODU
Harvard
ISUR
NDSU
YSU
Tennessee State
Lehigh
Wofford
Alabama AM

The next teams should be:
NAU
Nova
JMU
EWU
Cornell
Howard
SDSU
Albany
Duquense
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
Jacksonville
Georgia Southern
Samford
McNeese State

Any poll not including Samford, Jacksonville, Lafayette, Duquense, Howard, Cornell, Villanova, Alabama AM, and Tennessee State is just ludicrous....all they do is win.


I've listed the 26 teams with the best records - these should be the top 26 in every single poll result this week.

A poll based entirely off records. I'm guessing you're a strong supporter of the Nolan Power Index? (NPI (http://warrennolan.com/football1aa/2012/npi))

A computer rating system based almost exclusively on record.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

These should be the top 11 ranked teams (not in this order necissarily) in the next poll....


Montana State
Cal Poly
ODU
Harvard
ISUR
NDSU
YSU
Tennessee State
Lehigh
Wofford
Alabama AM

The next teams should be:
NAU
Nova
JMU
EWU
Cornell
Howard
SDSU
Albany
Duquense
Eastern Kentucky
Lafayette
Jacksonville
Georgia Southern
Samford
McNeese State

Any poll not including Samford, Jacksonville, Lafayette, Duquense, Howard, Cornell, Villanova, Alabama AM, and Tennessee State is just ludicrous....all they do is win.


I've listed the 26 teams with the best records - these should be the top 26 in every single poll result this week.

You can keep trying to twist it to that if you want clenz but as I've said several times now that is not what is or was ever being implied but you want to keep going back to that feel free to do so. It's exactly why the Drake argument didn't make sense either and I told you then that I wouldn't rank them.

You have to give some weitht to winning and with a zero in that column there is no weight in that part of the balancing act.

It's a silly point you are making because it is not at all what anyone is advocating in the debate.

[clenz]

A poll based entirely off records. I'm guessing you're a strong supporter of the Nolan Power Index? (NPI (http://warrennolan.com/football1aa/2012/npi))

A computer rating system based almost exclusively on record.
You bet...that poll looks awesome!

I do have a problem with UNI being ranked a head of teams who have wins though...****ing bull**** i tell you!

[MTfan4life]

You bet...that poll looks awesome!

I do have a problem with UNI being ranked a head of teams who have wins though...****ing bull**** i tell you!

I now see what you did there. whoops, haha

[uofmman1122]

Lots of people getting butthurt in this thread. xlolx

If UNI is a top 25 team, they'll prove it in the coming weeks.

Until then, they don't belong in the polls. Montana is the same. Both teams have lost to every good team they've played so far.

You guys are acting like if they're not included in the top 25 RIGHT NOW, then we're writing them off for good. xrolleyesx

[UNIFanSince1983]

I love how people are calling South Dakota awful this year, but those same people are ranking Illinois State high. I realize Illinois State is undefeated and has a FBS win, but they let South Dakota (who is awful mind you) tie them in the 4th quarter...

[darell1976]

3 losses against fcs. 3-3, doesn't mean horrible.

Combined record of losses: 21-11
Combined record of 3 FCS wins: 16-17

Their three wins weren't exactly against the sisters of the poor.

USD hasn't won on the road since beating Minnesota in September 2010, half their wins last season (6-5) was against non-DI teams, although they were 1 quarter from joining Cal Poly as GWFC champs until they allowed UND to score 3 TD's in the 4th to take the title from them. Not good yes, awful...not a word I would use.