SWAC football is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E

[Panther88]

and this phenomena didn't just start in 2012. There are entirely TOO many glaring examples of how horrid it is, recent like. 2012, the SLC is 2-0 CONVINCINGLY vs 2 most recent SWAC "champions" in Prairie View A&M and texas southern universities (2009/2010 respectively). PVAMU losing to an upstart 3rd year SLC cellar dweller in Lamar Univ to the tune of 31-0 spoke volumes. The mere fact that SHSU entered texas southern's new home and rang up 50 pts and holding them to only 6 while SHSU played a smidget of 1st teamers here or there for 4 qrtrs spoke volumes again. If any witnessed the game last night, it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM, NON-DIVERSITY in recruitment/staff, and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions.

There is no other way to say this, and I certainly seek NO ONE's affirmation in cyber-land, other than folx I would consider intelligent, vs the latter I've had banter w/ over there --------> (open-enrollment type individuals)... Since the SWAC in total decided it wanted to purchase its own ball, create its own isolated fields for competition, and simultaneously w/draw itself from the integrated world by competing against schools that were deemed @ its level (former i-aa'ers), it has now become nothing short of a 5.5A HS laughing stock (the texas based FCS schools) in talent/presentation.

There are those ppl -----> of color (supporters of "HBCU" football, whatever in the hell that is) who REFUSE to 'ack' this issue and are very, very prone to desire to shoot the messenger (me, because I'm black, I guess xconfusedx ) when the vocal messenger REPEATS word-for-word almost VERBATIM the EXACT same words any FCS saavy individuals would state: SWAC football is putridly pitiful/horrible from the coaching down to the student-athletes down to the fans of "black college football." I've NEVER EVER been a fan of "black college football." I'd transitioned to being a fan of former I-A football to I-AA football now FCS football. If Prairie View A&M University, the program, doesn't desire to be a participant of the Division-I FCS level of football and continues to trend towards "black college football," this is one former supporter who will take his talents, $$$, and support elsewhere.

Ciao.

[TheRevSFA]

There were four white guys on the Texas Southern team..I was kinda surprised.

Granted one was the kicker..but still

[Sammy94]

That kicker could be a linebacker also, that guy was huge.

[TheRevSFA]

That kicker could be a linebacker also, that guy was huge.

No joke. I was sitting there going "Good God he's huge" and KK was calling him Hollywood after that roughing the kicker call

[Panther88]

There were four white guys on the Texas Southern team..I was kinda surprised.

Granted one was the kicker..but still

True diversity in america representing. lol

That's pretty sad, considering this day and age in time. I don't think some "hbcus" recvd the memo that we live in an integrated society as of 2012. xsmhx

[ST_Lawson]

From an "outsider" perspective (never really followed the HBCU's too closely), it seems like even though the "quality" of football being played by many of the schools is in the lower levels of what most FCS schools play, that many of the schools (at least in the SWAC) have always been able to fall back on attendance and fan support.

If you look at FCS conference attendance numbers from last season, the SWAC averaged just under 13k fans per home game. Doesn't sound like much for some schools, but as a conference, that's actually #1 (ahead of the Southern, CAA, MVFC and Big Sky conferences). You see/hear stories about conference games like Arkansas-Pine Bluff taking on Jackson State in front of over 38k people (http://jsutigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2011-2012/jsuuapb1.html), the Bayou Classic between Grambling and Southern bringing in 40k people, and see the renderings and photos of what Alabama State's new stadium is going to look like (http://www.newasustadium.com/).

It just seems like for many of the SWAC schools, there is a tremendous amount of fan support (at a level that most FCS schools would be jealous of), regardless of how well the team actually plays. I'm sure that a lot of fans are there just for the atmosphere/experience, to watch the bands (whether you like that style of band or not, what they do is unique and entertaining to a lot of people), or whatever, but the point is, even when the teams are doing badly, fans are still buying tickets and merchandise.

That being said, maybe Panther88's feelings are the "canary in the cage" for many fans, who, if they don't start seeing the level of play improve..."will take his talents, $$$, and support elsewhere." That trend may already be starting to happen, actually. If you look at the change in average for conference attendance from 2010 to 2011, only 5 conferences had a drop:
Southern Conference - down an average of 281 per game
MEAC - down 345 per game
Ivy League - down 182 per game
Ohio Valley - down 225 per game

and the SWAC - down 1,661 per game vs the previous year. They were still #1 in conference average attendance, but another drop of the same magnitude this year would drop them below the Southern, CAA and MVFC and into 4th. We'll see if that trend continues or of it stabilizes, but it sounds like, at least for some fans of the SWAC, without improvement on the field, the once-consistent fan support could start to dry up.

[GlassOnion]

If youre going to compare attendance numbers and success, I'd suggest comparing public schools to public schools. If a public schools attendance is equal, to say, Woffords, I'd say that was poor. Privates are just on a different scale with their small enrollment and lack of connections to the general public.

[TheRevSFA]

Most fans go to the the SWAC games for the bands...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

and this phenomena didn't just start in 2012. There are entirely TOO many glaring examples of how horrid it is, recent like. 2012, the SLC is 2-0 CONVINCINGLY vs 2 most recent SWAC "champions" in Prairie View A&M and texas southern universities (2009/2010 respectively). PVAMU losing to an upstart 3rd year SLC cellar dweller in Lamar Univ to the tune of 31-0 spoke volumes. The mere fact that SHSU entered texas southern's new home and rang up 50 pts and holding them to only 6 while SHSU played a smidget of 1st teamers here or there for 4 qrtrs spoke volumes again. If any witnessed the game last night, it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM, NON-DIVERSITY in recruitment/staff, and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions.

Well put. If the HBCU's were to better get involved with the wider world of FCS, you'd see the quality of play improve, you'd see a spike in interest across the country, and I also believe you'd see better attendance figures you see now. Hopefully the powers-that-be will understand that someday.

And your quote of "it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM.. and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions" could be applied to the Ivy League as well. Like the SWAC, better engagement with the rest of the subdivision would not only be better for the schools involved, there would probably be material benefits as well.

[Panther88]

it sounds like, at least for some fans of the SWAC, without improvement on the field, the once-consistent fan support could start to dry up.

That's precisely what you and others are witnessing, as I type this. I tire of the monkey-show. I was reared to be competitive in all facets and WANT to view a competition presenting a prdct that is competitive and sound w/ improvements along the way. What I've witnessed the last 20 years (speaking for my school) is nothing short of a regression and inability to keep up w/ the localers w/ zero growth coupled w/ a stable ability to maintain the status quo, unmoved. (SHSU, SFA, Texas St particularly during the same time frame) I've never been a friend to pomp & circumstance surrounding HBCU games. Could care less about the "band" or the "atmosphere." I want the "W." Period. I've called the true nature of fans who support hogwash on the field of play pure unamerican for americans LOVE a winner. (thanks George C Scott lol) Have you ever noticed that during a blowout be it football OOC or basketball OOC (during one of the welfare games vs BCS type schools), most HBCU fans just seemingly ignore the score and the fact that their squad is being drilled and are actually smiling and "happy" immediately afterwards? Not from this side of the keyboard as we IMMEDIATELY start to seethe and start analyzing what went wrong and HOW the prdct can be improved if future play occurs yet again vs the competitor. We're not a monolithic type of supporters, obviously. I'm in it for the "W" while others are in it for the pomp and circumstance you refer to as "gameday experience." The same can be said of most fanbases but I'm sure most true fans want a "W," bottomline.

[Panther88]

Well put. If the HBCU's were to better get involved with the wider world of FCS, you'd see the quality of play improve, you'd see a spike in interest across the country, and I also believe you'd see better attendance figures you see now. Hopefully the powers-that-be will understand that someday.

And your quote of "it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM.. and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions" could be applied to the Ivy League as well. Like the SWAC, better engagement with the rest of the subdivision would not only be better for the schools involved, there would probably be material benefits as well.

Must have intelligent and knowledgeable leaders in order for that to occur Lehigh. Ineptness is abound... xsmhx

[DSUrocks07]

That kicker could be a linebacker also, that guy was huge.

Reminds me of our kicker from a couple years ago. 5'9" 240lbs...listed.

[superman7515]

Reminds me of our kicker from a couple years ago. 5'9" 240lbs...listed.

That guy was a real fire plug, although I think they may have added an inch or two to his height there.

[Panther88]

I thought there would be more commentary but I fear most won't comment because of "PC" or being labeled as some type of homer for saying what they think is true, although it may come across negatively the message itself has to be conveyed negatively (tearing down) in order for the truth to be understood.

Where's Terror? I'm really curious to see what the head-to-head ratio is between the SWAC and SLC schools over the last 10 years.

[danefan]

I thought there would be more commentary but I fear most won't comment because of "PC" or being labeled as some type of homer for saying what they think is true, although it may come across negatively the message itself has to be conveyed negatively (tearing down) in order for the truth to be understood.

Where's Terror? I'm really curious to see what the head-to-head ratio is between the SWAC and SLC schools over the last 10 years.

I've been saying this for years and to some extent have extended the same opinion to the Ivy's.

And yes, you are correct. I am always labeled a homer.

[Panther88]

I've been saying this for years and to some extent have extended the same opinion to the Ivy's.

And yes, you are correct. I am always labeled a homer.

Well, since you've been labeled a homer, can you promptly hit another homerun here and now? :D lol J/K

Speak your piece man. Say it as HONESTLY as you see it. I wouldn't think anyone here or elsewhere would hasten to judge someone else's opinion, if that's their view or interpretation of us issue @ hand. Glass half full, glass half empty. Only you can decide. :-|

[TheRevSFA]

I thought there would be more commentary but I fear most won't comment because of "PC" or being labeled as some type of homer for saying what they think is true, although it may come across negatively the message itself has to be conveyed negatively (tearing down) in order for the truth to be understood.

Where's Terror? I'm really curious to see what the head-to-head ratio is between the SWAC and SLC schools over the last 10 years.

So would non-PC be someone saying "man those ******* couldn't play football with 40 acres and a mule?"

[TheRevSFA]

In all honestly I think the SWAC puts themselves at the ultimate disadvantage. I don't know much about the MEAC so I can't comment.

It seems that none of the SWAC schools have budgets worth a damn for athletics. Alabama A&M..State..whichever building the new stadium might be the exception to the rule. Also by isolating themselves from post season activity and instead playing a championship isolates them from the rest of FCS as a "Hey you think you're better than us" mentality

It's sad as I love the tradition of SWAC football. I love going to watch the bands (BTW Good job Ocean of Sound by getting suspended for hazing) and SWAC fans are some of the best around. I wish the people who run the conference would get their heads out of their collective asses and say "You know, we CAN move the Classics up and off of Thanksgiving weekend. People will still go, AND, we can take part in a playoff system"

[Panther88]

So would non-PC be someone saying "man those ******* couldn't play football with 40 acres and a mule?"

Say what's on your mind. I DESPISE censorship. Most intelligent individuals aren't affected by words reverent, imho.

But, I'm not smacking. I'm being completely honest in my assessment of SWAC football and its slow transition to the hospice of former i-aa football.

[NDSU_grad]

I think NDSU has played 3 games against the SWAC since moving up (MSVU twice and now PV A&M). I know those teams are generally near the bottom of the SWAC but I was still surprised at the lack of competition. All those teams are in high school football hotbeds, it seems with even minimal investment they could at least field teams in the top 25. The MEAC seems a little stronger but not near the level of competition I would expect.

[WileECoyote06]

So if SHSU beats a SLC mate by 44 points on the road, what does that indicate?

Let's be careful not to overreact. Sam Houston state was once the #2 team in the country and should beat a team who isn't even considered the #2 team in the West Division of the SWAC by this much or more (they were predicted to finish 5th out of five).

Now don't get me wrong, the SWAC and the MEAC could use some improvement; but these things take time and money. I agree that withdrawing from the FCS playoffs was not a great idea for the conference, but that is minor compared to other factors like coaching, coach preparation and access to recruits.

[813Jag]

In all honestly I think the SWAC puts themselves at the ultimate disadvantage. I don't know much about the MEAC so I can't comment.

It seems that none of the SWAC schools have budgets worth a damn for athletics. Alabama A&M..State..whichever building the new stadium might be the exception to the rule. Also by isolating themselves from post season activity and instead playing a championship isolates them from the rest of FCS as a "Hey you think you're better than us" mentality

It's sad as I love the tradition of SWAC football. I love going to watch the bands (BTW Good job Ocean of Sound by getting suspended for hazing) and SWAC fans are some of the best around. I wish the people who run the conference would get their heads out of their collective asses and say "You know, we CAN move the Classics up and off of Thanksgiving weekend. People will still go, AND, we can take part in a playoff system"
I can only speak for my school we hit a low point in football and basketball in the last few years, with poor leadership in the entire Athletic Department. Hate to sound like a back in the day guy, but any team in Southern's run in the 90's was well conditioned. Our teams the last few years have not been. But I fell like the response to that debacle that we had on ESPNU a couple weeks ago shows that we have people in place that want to increase the brand of Southern University.

One aspect of the "separation" arguement I agree with is that there's a huge emphasis placed on beating each other up in league play. You don't see that intensity in non conference games unless it's a MEAC/Tennessee St game. I feel like part of that comes from having coaches that are a part of the SWAC circle. As long as we recycle coaches then that mentality will never change. We build teams to beat each other, not to compete with the rest of the schedule.

This bolded statement has always been a pet peeve of mine, the Bayou Classic and Turkey Day classic don't prevent the league as a whole from the playoffs. That Championship Game (which I'm not a fan of) is the problem. I want somebody to honestly answer this (and I know most teams can beat ours so lets leave that out), if missing out on the post season is one of the big problems for the SWAC, what the hell is the excuse of the teams in the playoff leagues that suck?

[813Jag]

So if SHSU beats a SLC mate by 44 points on the road, what does that indicate?

Let's be careful not to overreact. Sam Houston state was once the #2 team in the country and should beat a team who isn't even considered the #2 team in the West Division of the SWAC by this much or more (they were predicted to finish 5th out of five).

Now don't get me wrong, the SWAC and the MEAC could use some improvement; but these things take time and money. I agree that withdrawing from the FCS playoffs was not a great idea for the conference, but that is minor compared to other factors like coaching, coach preparation and access to recruits.
I agree, NDSU has only given up 14 points in 3 OOC games including a 22-7 win against an FBS foe. why isn't there any out rage for Robert Morris' football program?

[Panther88]

I agree, NDSU has only given up 14 points in 3 OOC games including a 22-7 win against an FBS foe. why isn't there any out rage for Robert Morris' football program?

Probably because Robert Moriss's football fans may not care and if they did care, perhaps they could create their own thread to address their shortcomings? Perhaps?

"SWAC football is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E" xconfusedx
"Robert Morris football is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E" xconfusedx

I offer zero excuses other than to point out issue(s) as I see it. It's senseless to point to someone else's house on fire when your own has the towering inferno blazing away @ its foundation. xsmhx

[WileECoyote06]

Probably because Robert Moriss's football fans may not care and if they did care, perhaps they could create their own thread to address their shortcomings? Perhaps?

"SWAC football is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E" xconfusedx
"Robert Morris football is H-O-R-R-I-B-L-E" xconfusedx

I offer zero excuses other than to point out issue(s) as I see it. It's senseless to point to someone else's house on fire when your own has the towering inferno blazing away @ its foundation. xsmhx

One of the refrains from SWAC fans as well as fans on this board is that they don't fully fund or even moderately fund their athletic programs. As a concerned fan/alum/booster, you should first ask why the SWAC, which has attendance numbers to envy for most FCS conferences doesn't see a return on their fan's loyalty?

Then point your ire towards the institutions, and if possible send those questions in with 'postage' (money) to get your concerns heard.

[Panther88]

One of the refrains from SWAC fans as well as fans on this board is that they don't fully fund or even moderately fund their athletic programs. As a concerned fan/alum/booster, you should first ask why the SWAC, which has attendance numbers to envy for most FCS conferences doesn't see a return on their fan's loyalty?

Then point your ire towards the institutions, and if possible send those questions in with 'postage' (money) to get your concerns heard.
Easier said than done. We give but hear the same tired speech w/ zero actions toward positive. We wish it were that e-z.

[dgtw]

I once worked with a black guy whose wife went to an HBC (Ala A&M, I think) and he said he went to a lot of HBCU games, but that he went to see the game and didn't give two hoots about the bands. But, yes, the HBCU games, especially the "Classics" seem to have more of an emphasis on the bands, parties and family reunions than the game itself. That certainly seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

Don't most OOC games for SWAC teams involve other HBCU schools?

[Panther88]

I once worked with a black guy whose wife went to an HBC (Ala A&M, I think) and he said he went to a lot of HBCU games, but that he went to see the game and didn't give two hoots about the bands. But, yes, the HBCU games, especially the "Classics" seem to have more of an emphasis on the bands, parties and family reunions than the game itself. That certainly seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

Don't most OOC games for SWAC teams involve other HBCU schools?
True. The tale of the tape occurs when it is HBCU vs non-HBCU OOC. Huge disparity in talent, coaching, and knowledge.

[WileECoyote06]

True. The tale of the tape occurs when it is HBCU vs non-HBCU OOC. Huge disparity in talent, coaching, and knowledge.

The talent disparity is along the offensive and defensive lines. HBCUs don't get them on either side of the ball. We're can match-up at the skill positions, as evidenced by the draft picks from HBCUs. I don't care how good your quarterback is, if the line can't protect he's going to get sacked, throw interceptions, or fumble. If your d-line is slow and out of shape they are going to get manhandled by well coached o-linemen.

[bonarae]

Well put. If the HBCU's were to better get involved with the wider world of FCS, you'd see the quality of play improve, you'd see a spike in interest across the country, and I also believe you'd see better attendance figures you see now. Hopefully the powers-that-be will understand that someday.

And your quote of "it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM.. and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions" could be applied to the Ivy League as well. Like the SWAC, better engagement with the rest of the subdivision would not only be better for the schools involved, there would probably be material benefits as well.

I agree with you Lehigh. The Ivies need more intelligent football-oriented planning and diversity in scheduling. I'm starting to look at other options (e.g. Stony Brook) right now if this ineptness continues...

[Panther88]

The talent disparity is along the offensive and defensive lines. HBCUs don't get them on either side of the ball. We're can match-up at the skill positions, as evidenced by the draft picks from HBCUs. I don't care how good your quarterback is, if the line can't protect he's going to get sacked, throw interceptions, or fumble. If your d-line is slow and out of shape they are going to get manhandled by well coached o-linemen.

+1. It's amazing to witness it first hand. When I look @ these games, I don't pay too much attention to the skill position players, unless it's the WRs blocking downfield and/or running great routes to get open. The trenches... THAT is where all the good action is.

[superman7515]

It's sad as I love the tradition of SWAC football. I love going to watch the bands (BTW Good job Ocean of Sound by getting suspended for hazing)....

But that is a tradition there...

Texas Band of Thieves Stuns Japanese Hosts (http://articles.latimes.com/1992-12-16/news/mn-1947_1_university-band)


Later reports said the shopkeepers were stunned by the brazenness of the thieves from Texas Southern University's Ocean of Soul Marching Band, who reportedly picked up compact disc players, tape recorders, pocket televisions and video game software and dropped them into their shopping bags and coat pockets before walking out of stores. They committed the thefts on Dec. 7, the day after they marched at halftime in a game between the University of Nebraska and Kansas State.

News of the incident was played down by the Houston university for more than a week, during which the thievery was called first an incident of "misconduct." Later, the university explained that "some small items had been taken from merchants but were subsequently returned."

All that changed on Tuesday, when Japanese newspapers and television news stations reported the spree, embarrassing the all-black university, forcing it to acknowledge the thefts and causing the school's president and others to suggest that the already negative Japanese view of blacks had been further eroded.

[GAD]

Most fans go to the the SWAC games for the bands...
That is one of the biggest lies going on this board...it has been proven completely false plenty of times.

[TheRevSFA]

That is one of the biggest lies going on this board...it has been proven completely false plenty of times.

So Texas southern having 500 fans is the norm?

[GAD]

So Texas southern having 500 fans is the norm?
For Texas Southern, yes
but keep in mind schools like Southern and Jackson State have lead FCS/I-AA in attendance when they are winning...J-State still holds the record for the highest attendance avg.

[TheRevSFA]

How good are their bands?

[dgtw]

A better question might be is do HBCUs still serve a purpose in today's society?

[Panther88]

A better question might be is do HBCUs still serve a purpose in today's society?

If they perpetuate the ideology of segregationism, no. But we're talking SWAC conf fball right now.

I couldn't address earlier as I was typing from iPh5 smaller keyboard but to fully answer your question, yes, ANY HBCU that educates the citizens of this country, and possibly others citizenry, that causes them to become productive citizens of this country are viable. Afterall, they are universities. I think a lot of folx are confused into thinking that the term "HBCU" stands for "black only admittance" and that is a very wrong assumption. HBCU, the term, was invented and maintained by our fed govt as a designation w/ historical significance attached to it. It has absolutely nothing to do w/ admittance of a special blend or breed of people lol. Any and all can attend the universities. We are still co-existing in a fully integrated environment, aren't we? So, dgtw, the bigger question isn't do HBCUs still serve a purpose in today's society but rather does a specific university w/ specific offerings serve a purpose in today's society? I graduated from a specific university w/ a specific major as did you and others from your specific university w/ your specific major. What's the difference? Unless you're a Berkley/Stanford/MIT grad. lol (my former field of study)

[813Jag]

How good are their bands?
people aren't going to Southern games if they don't feel like the team will win. That's why you will see the attendance drop late in the year.

[DSUrocks07]

A better question might be is do HBCUs still serve a purpose in today's society?

HBCU isn't (or shouldn't be) a class of school/institution. It is a school/institution with a HISTORY of being a black school. That what irks me about people who throw out the "stop being an HBCU", how does one erase their own history?

[3rd Coast Tiger]

A better question might be is do HBCUs still serve a purpose in today's society?

Yes, "Historically" Black College and University's enrollments are open to anyone of any race, creed or color provided you meet the admission standards. Students at HBCUs are not taught Black Accounting, Black Science, Black Pharmacy or Black Computer Science.

[3rd Coast Tiger]

HBCU isn't (or shouldn't be) a class of school/institution. It is a school/institution with a HISTORY of being a black school. That what irks me about people who throw out the "stop being an HBCU", how does one erase their own history?

+1

[Mr. C]

Well put. If the HBCU's were to better get involved with the wider world of FCS, you'd see the quality of play improve, you'd see a spike in interest across the country, and I also believe you'd see better attendance figures you see now. Hopefully the powers-that-be will understand that someday.

And your quote of "it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM.. and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions" could be applied to the Ivy League as well. Like the SWAC, better engagement with the rest of the subdivision would not only be better for the schools involved, there would probably be material benefits as well.

On a totally unrelated note, what a COOL helmet.

[3rd Coast Tiger]

For Texas Southern, yes
but keep in mind schools like Southern and Jackson State have lead FCS/I-AA in attendance when they are winning...J-State still holds the record for the highest attendance avg.

No 500 fans at a Texas Southern game is not the norm. Scour the internet and show me attendance from a Texas Southern game where it lists 500 fans.

[DSUrocks07]

The problem IMO isn't HBCU football schools, but HBCU football conferences. The two FCS conferences that are strictly made up of HBCUs (minus Tennessee State), have developed a culture of mediocrity that permeates among the collective schools. We don't strive to be the best of FCS, we strive to be the best of BCF. It is a safety net that we can all beat our chest about where every year the MEAC champ goes to the playoffs and loses and the other schools in the MEAC talk about how they would have done "so much better" and schools in the SWAC talk about how they would "roll so-and-so school", yet they don't schedule them in as an OOC. I think that the only way that the culture will change is a dispersal of HBCUs to other regional conferences. Only then will the bar be raised and we can all compete on a level playing field instead of competing at a sub-level of this subdivision.

[ST_Lawson]

How good are their bands?

That depends on your ranking system and what you like. Band styles are subjective. Personally, I like what is called "corps style marching" (do a youtube search for drum and bugle corps and you'll see what that is) because that's how I learned how to march, did through 4 years of high school, 7 years of drum corps and most of my 5 years in college marching band. I also like loud but with good quality sound (it is possible to do both).

Many HBCU bands have a different style. Generally lots of straight lines, high stepping, quite often more modern music. If you've ever seen the Battle of the Bands at the Bayou Classic or the movie Drumline, then that's what I'm talking about (here's a video of Jackson State University's marching band, for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW80DV9PKi8)). In my opinion, many of the HBCU bands that I've seen have a tendency to try to just be as loud as they possibly can be without regard to quality of sound (just my opinion, I know many people really enjoy that style).

Then you have "Big 10 style" marching bands (Ohio State, for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdWolVsKlAI)). Like the HBCU style, they often use a high step, or sometimes a toe-first marching style. Also like the HBCU's, they quite often do a lot of straight lines and blocks in their drill formations, sometimes spelling out things (like Script Ohio). Unlike the HBCU style, it seems like many of the "Big 10 style" bands play with a bit less volume, but sometimes better tone quality.

I'm not saying that one style is better than another. Many schools have longstanding traditions about how their marching band acts, marches, and plays, and that works great for them. If the band members enjoy what they are doing and the fans enjoy what they are seeing, then it doesn't matter to me what style they are performing.

[Panther88]

I think all have gone off tangent and started to address some generalities of a group of schools instead of my specific assertion about a specific conference: the SWAC conference.

That is where my issue lies, considering the SWAC conference lives in regions of hotbeds of high school football rich talent adjoining the SEC and Big XII conferences, as well as the SLC conference.

[Bogus Megapardus]

From a complete outsider's perspective - the benefits of an HBCU educational environment have been, and will continue to be, well founded. While there is some geographical variance, sociological/scientific research demonstrates that some students of color achieve better academically at an HBCU than at at a non-HCBU. And, obviously, the more students able to achieve academically at a higher level in a suitable environment, the better.

But I can't imagine how those same data necessarily hold true for college football teams. There seems to be a disconnect - while the academic environment is more suitable for some at an HCBU, the athletic environment might not be. A team has to represent its school and its players have to be students at that school. They can't be separated. What I don't really understand is why just about all HCBUs belong to conferences consisting of other HCBUs. Are there any studies or data showing that all-HCBU competition increases athletic goals or continues to mitigate historic discrimination in athletics? Perhaps there are, but I still imagine that some athletes, while preferring an HCBU academic environment, might also prefer a less exclusive athletic environment.

[DSUrocks07]

I think all have gone off tangent and started to address some generalities of a group of schools instead of my specific assertion about a specific conference: the SWAC conference.

That is where my issue lies, considering the SWAC conference lives in regions of hotbeds of high school football rich talent adjoining the SEC and Big XII conferences, as well as the SLC conference.

Easy Answer:

The SWAC Championship game, nine game mandate within the conference, and not participating in the playoffs are all a hindrance to the redevelopment and continued degradation of the quality of football within the conference.

More Complicated Answer:

Cultural and societal issues and misconceptions among all facets of SWAC football (and MEAC football by extension) are why the SWAC is regressing on the competitive level in Division I.

[caribbeanhen]

The problem IMO isn't HBCU football schools, but HBCU football conferences. The two FCS conferences that are strictly made up of HBCUs (minus Tennessee State), have developed a culture of mediocrity that permeates among the collective schools. We don't strive to be the best of FCS, we strive to be the best of BCF. It is a safety net that we can all beat our chest about where every year the MEAC champ goes to the playoffs and loses and the other schools in the MEAC talk about how they would have done "so much better" and schools in the SWAC talk about how they would "roll so-and-so school", yet they don't schedule them in as an OOC. I think that the only way that the culture will change is a dispersal of HBCUs to other regional conferences. Only then will the bar be raised and we can all compete on a level playing field instead of competing at a sub-level of this subdivision.

I think your right on the money

[Panther88]

LOL @ the thought of being in an undocumented subdivision of the FCS subdivision.

[DSUrocks07]

LOL @ the thought of being in an undocumented subdivision of the FCS subdivision.

Honest question, is the SWAC even relevant on the FCS landscape? A majority of SWAC schedules have nine conference games, one FBS and one D2 game (or even NAIA games). The nine game mandate is killing you. Honestly once Alabama State leaves the fold and the SCG is scrapped for good and the conference can go back to eight game format, it can be a good start.

[Panther88]

Honest question, is the SWAC even relevant on the FCS landscape? A majority of SWAC schedules have nine conference games, one FBS and one D2 game (or even NAIA games). The nine game mandate is killing you. Honestly once Alabama State leaves the fold and the SCG is scrapped for good and the conference can go back to eight game format, it can be a good start.

The SWAC, as it currently is as a whole, is NOT relevant in the 2012 FCS football landscape. OOC vs the SWAC, the following has occurred to date:

PVAMU vs Lamar (lost miserably 31-0 to a 3rd year FCS program considered a cellar dweller in the SLC)
sTu vs SHSU (lost 50-6 to fellow FCSer from the SLC)
PVAMU vs NDSU (lost 66-7 and it could've EASILY been 100-0 if the 1st teamers had stayed for 4 full qrtrs - fellow FCSer)

SU vs UNM (lost 66-21 to a new coaching staff and underabundance of FBS D-I players - mostly newbies)
UAPB vs Langston (won 17-14 over a D-II member)
AAMU vs Tuskegee (won 7-6 over a D-II member)
JSU vs MissStU (lost 56-9 to cellar dweller SEC squad)
BCU vs AlaStU (lost 38-28 to fellow FCS member from the MEAC)
JSU vs TnStU (lost 38-12 to fellow FCS member from the OVC)
UNT vs TxSu (lost 34-7 to a rebuilding FCS squad cloaked in FBS garb)
TCU vs GSU (lost 56-0 to strong FBS squad)
NWST vs MVSU (lost 45-14 to middle-tier FCS squad from the SLC)

SU takes on FAMU today and TennStU takes on SWAC West leading UAPB. The tale of the tape shall ensue again today if the SWAC goes o'fer yet again, which all indications are that it will. All the variables are there (UAPB was highly undisciplined and SU just made a recent HC'ing change a few weeks ago).

I am NOT a fan of "Black College Football(BCF)," as so many SWAC alums are. I AM a fan of FCS and FBS football. The prevailing mindset amongst numerous in the SWAC is that they're fans of BCF and not fans of FCS football. I'm for competitivity @ the highest level, against anyone FBS or FCS alike. Unless one wants to call a club team in Concordia beatig up on an ill-equipped "FCS" team in Mississippi Valley State University competitive. D-IIers and club teams once owned the SWAC's lower-tier'd schools earlier-recent and even today they fight for their very lives in competition against them (football wise).

I've gone away from smacking and ridiculing and am actually seeking input from others who are knowledgeable, neutral, and objective. Interestingly enough, I've been researching college athletics-academia from recruitment down to the actual student-athletes themselves since my jr yr of hs, immediately after leading my then 5A team to the tx state quarterfinal round. It was my personal treatment for blame in losing the game (3fumbles-2INTs vs "mojo") and the words immediately afterwards that fueled my inner rage coupled w/ my desire for some type of understanding how adults, collegiate and non-collegiate (fans) alike, could mistreat and verbally abuse a 16 y/o kid over a fball game. Even a few univ recruiters(former i-a'ers) made mention of the disastrous game as they smiled in my face and lol'd about it while attempting to convince me I'd make a great FS lol - from QB to FS, sure lol. So, an apathy developed and obviously I've maintained it as I try to error on the side of what's right and proper for young student-athletes. Sorry for diverting. Just giving rationale for why I'm so passionate about what I see on the field of play.

[813Jag]

It was ugly but Southern stole one from FAMU

[Panther88]

It was ugly but Southern stole one from FAMU

I saw that. Congrats man. My hats off to you guys for working through your adversity.

[superman7515]

Joe Taylor will be gone from Florida A&M at the end of the season.

[BlackNGoldR3v0lut10n]

Speaking of Tennessee State, I read an HBCU football magazine several years ago and noted that it listed Tennessee State as an "independent" (never mind the fact that they are a full-fledged member of the OVC).

[superman7515]

Speaking of Tennessee State, I read an HBCU football magazine several years ago and noted that it listed Tennessee State as an "independent" (never mind the fact that they are a full-fledged member of the OVC).

Maybe because of their scheduling agreement with the OVC the writer was confused? The SWAC tried inviting them last year, but they didn't accept.

[dgtw]

They should play a full OVC schedule or get out of the league. I undertsand the OVC agreed to it, just my opinion.

[kdinva]

They should play a full OVC schedule or get out of the league......

+1

[Panther88]

Maybe because of their scheduling agreement with the OVC the writer was confused? The SWAC tried inviting them last year, but they didn't accept.

Smart move by TnSt not to join the SWAC as it currently is. :-|

[superman7515]

They should play a full OVC schedule or get out of the league. I undertsand the OVC agreed to it, just my opinion.

They've been there since 1988. If it hasn't bothered the OVC enough to do anything in the last 24 years, it probably won't bother them any time soon.

[Jazzman1522]

They've been there since 1988. If it hasn't bothered the OVC enough to do anything in the last 24 years, it probably won't bother them any time soon.

Probably not. I don't see it changing, even though it creates a very strange scenario. Every year, they and one other school only play 7 conference games, while everyone else plays 8. And I've never been clear on what happens if one of them is 7-0 at the end of the season and someone else is 7-1. Personally, I think it should be counted as a tie at the very least, so the 7-1 team isn't punished for losing the conference game that they at least played in. But then that creates a possible crappy scenario if that 7-0 team isn't Tennessee State, since they had to play that schedule as a result of the OVC's agreement and not because they chose to.

[dgtw]

They've been there since 1988. If it hasn't bothered the OVC enough to do anything in the last 24 years, it probably won't bother them any time soon.

I undertsand, it just bothers me. Of course, the next time the OVC asks my opinion will be the first time. I don't like they started letting in non-football members and have a non-scholarship football team as members or that they rejected UNA as a member.

But I'm just a lowly fan of an OVC team, so what do I know?

[dgtw]

Probably not. I don't see it changing, even though it creates a very strange scenario. Every year, they and one other school only play 7 conference games, while everyone else plays 8. And I've never been clear on what happens if one of them is 7-0 at the end of the season and someone else is 7-1. Personally, I think it should be counted as a tie at the very least, so the 7-1 team isn't punished for losing the conference game that they at least played in. But then that creates a possible crappy scenario if that 7-0 team isn't Tennessee State, since they had to play that schedule as a result of the OVC's agreement and not because they chose to.

If the team went 7-0 and another went 7-1, the 7-1 team's loss would have been to the 7-0 team, so I assume they'd still be crowned champions as even if they lost to TSU they'd still have head to head tiebreaker.

Now, if TSU went 7-0 and the team they did not play went 6-1, that would be a sticky situation.

[Bisonoline]

The SWAC is pretty much irrelevant. When you only play OOC for the pay day and you get a constant *** whooping, that doesnt lead to the signing of top talent. When you only play for the SWAC championship and dont avail yourself to play against others for a National Championship, that will also not lead to the signing of top talent.

Ive watched a few SWAC games and I was amazed at the poor quality of play. Not only the lack of talent but also the lack of discipline. Players seemed to do what they wanted and they didnt play as a team. This all starts at the top---leadership and a lack there for of.

[Panther88]

The SWAC is pretty much irrelevant. When you only play OOC for the pay day and you get a constant *** whooping, that doesnt lead to the signing of top talent. When you only play for the SWAC championship and dont avail yourself to play against others for a National Championship, that will also not lead to the signing of top talent.

Ive watched a few SWAC games and I was amazed at the poor quality of play. Not only the lack of talent but also the lack of discipline. Players seemed to do what they wanted and they didnt play as a team. This all starts at the top---leadership and a lack there for of.
+1.

[813Jag]

Panther88, looking at these stats, I'm in agreement with you (leading passer less than 200 yards, leading rusher less than 100 yards):
PASSING AVG/GAME Cl G Comp-Att-Int Pct. Yards TD Long Avg/G
1. Mason,Deaunte-AAMU SR 5 75 - 109 - 0 68.8 960 9 61 192.0
2. Joseph,Dray-SUBR JR 4 67 - 108 - 4 62.0 752 6 62 188.0
3. ANDERSON,Benjamin-UAPB SO 5 74 - 137 - 4 54.0 905 4 55 181.0
4. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 - 115 - 4 55.7 677 3 34 135.4
5. Moore,Clayton-JKST JR 5 50 - 94 - 2 53.2 653 3 67 130.6
6. McDonald,Dedric-JKST SR 5 55 - 108 - 4 50.9 581 3 38 116.2
7. Smith,Darius-ALCN JR 4 48 - 99 - 3 48.5 371 0 23 92.8
8. Williams, D.J.-GRAM FR 5 35 - 77 - 3 45.5 411 2 65 82.2
9. Rivers, Frank-GRAM JR 3 19 - 33 - 0 57.6 237 2 50 79.0
10. Parker,Dantavio-TXSO SR 4 22 - 59 - 3 37.3 302 4 59 75.5

1. Stansell, Brandon-MVSU SR 4 60 380 6.3 0 43 95.0
2. Lacey,Kaderius-AAMU SR 5 82 450 5.5 3 45 90.0
3. Crowell, Isaiah-ALST SO 5 67 343 5.1 6 61 68.6
4. BILLINGS,Justin-UAPB JR 5 57 318 5.6 2 39 63.6
5. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 299 4.7 6 29 59.8
6. Perkins-Loving,-TXSO JR 5 65 286 4.4 3 43 57.2
7. Anderson, Fred-PVAM SO 5 53 264 5.0 1 38 52.8
8. Runner, Jeremy-GRAM FR 4 53 200 3.8 2 27 50.0
9. Gooden,Tommy-JKST JR 5 37 225 6.1 1 23 45.0
10. Bateaste, Trey-MVSU SR 4 47 163 3.5 4 25 40.8

TOTAL DEFENSE G Rush Pass Plays Yards Avg/P TD Avg/G
1. Mississippi Valley 4 439 551 256 990 3.9 11 247.5
2. Arkansas-Pine Bluff 5 717 794 322 1511 4.7 13 302.2
3. Southern 4 570 681 243 1251 5.1 12 312.8
4. Jackson State 5 674 947 311 1621 5.2 19 324.2
5. Alabama A&M 5 830 807 319 1637 5.1 8 327.4
6. Alabama State 5 968 844 371 1812 4.9 13 362.4
7. Alcorn State 5 1332 738 318 2070 6.5 24 414.0
8. Grambling State 4 925 767 252 1692 6.7 17 423.0
9. Prairie View 5 1183 1155 364 2338 6.4 27 467.6
10. Texas Southern 5 1336 1223 377 2559 6.8 28 511.8

[Panther88]

+1. allowing > 450+ yds a game vs FCS xsmhx

[DSUrocks07]

Panther88, looking at these stats, I'm in agreement with you (leading passer less than 200 yards, leading rusher less than 100 yards):
PASSING AVG/GAME Cl G Comp-Att-Int Pct. Yards TD Long Avg/G
1. Mason,Deaunte-AAMU SR 5 75 - 109 - 0 68.8 960 9 61 192.0
2. Joseph,Dray-SUBR JR 4 67 - 108 - 4 62.0 752 6 62 188.0
3. ANDERSON,Benjamin-UAPB SO 5 74 - 137 - 4 54.0 905 4 55 181.0
4. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 - 115 - 4 55.7 677 3 34 135.4
5. Moore,Clayton-JKST JR 5 50 - 94 - 2 53.2 653 3 67 130.6
6. McDonald,Dedric-JKST SR 5 55 - 108 - 4 50.9 581 3 38 116.2
7. Smith,Darius-ALCN JR 4 48 - 99 - 3 48.5 371 0 23 92.8
8. Williams, D.J.-GRAM FR 5 35 - 77 - 3 45.5 411 2 65 82.2
9. Rivers, Frank-GRAM JR 3 19 - 33 - 0 57.6 237 2 50 79.0
10. Parker,Dantavio-TXSO SR 4 22 - 59 - 3 37.3 302 4 59 75.5

1. Stansell, Brandon-MVSU SR 4 60 380 6.3 0 43 95.0
2. Lacey,Kaderius-AAMU SR 5 82 450 5.5 3 45 90.0
3. Crowell, Isaiah-ALST SO 5 67 343 5.1 6 61 68.6
4. BILLINGS,Justin-UAPB JR 5 57 318 5.6 2 39 63.6
5. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 299 4.7 6 29 59.8
6. Perkins-Loving,-TXSO JR 5 65 286 4.4 3 43 57.2
7. Anderson, Fred-PVAM SO 5 53 264 5.0 1 38 52.8
8. Runner, Jeremy-GRAM FR 4 53 200 3.8 2 27 50.0
9. Gooden,Tommy-JKST JR 5 37 225 6.1 1 23 45.0
10. Bateaste, Trey-MVSU SR 4 47 163 3.5 4 25 40.8

TOTAL DEFENSE G Rush Pass Plays Yards Avg/P TD Avg/G
1. Mississippi Valley 4 439 551 256 990 3.9 11 247.5
2. Arkansas-Pine Bluff 5 717 794 322 1511 4.7 13 302.2
3. Southern 4 570 681 243 1251 5.1 12 312.8
4. Jackson State 5 674 947 311 1621 5.2 19 324.2
5. Alabama A&M 5 830 807 319 1637 5.1 8 327.4
6. Alabama State 5 968 844 371 1812 4.9 13 362.4
7. Alcorn State 5 1332 738 318 2070 6.5 24 414.0
8. Grambling State 4 925 767 252 1692 6.7 17 423.0
9. Prairie View 5 1183 1155 364 2338 6.4 27 467.6
10. Texas Southern 5 1336 1223 377 2559 6.8 28 511.8

http://ladygeekgirl.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/mother-of-god-meme-rage-face.jpg

[TheRevSFA]

No 500 fans at a Texas Southern game is not the norm. Scour the internet and show me attendance from a Texas Southern game where it lists 500 fans.


Did you go to the TSU-Sam game? There was barely 2000 people in that stadium, and the majority of them were Sam fans. That's absolutely sad. I know it was a Thursday night game, but you guys helped pay for that stadium and there were more Sam fans. I was sitting in the Presidents Club and could hear everything on the field.

I was surprised I didn't hear crickets.

[crusader11]

Ive watched a few SWAC games and I was amazed at the poor quality of play. Not only the lack of talent but also the lack of discipline. Players seemed to do what they wanted and they didnt play as a team. This all starts at the top---leadership and a lack there for of.

Nailed it.

Look at the teams who have committed the most penalties this year, a bunch of SWAC/MEAC teams. Some of the teams in the MEAC play a good brand of football, but half of that conference is pretty bad.

Conversely, take a look at the teams that commit the least amount of penalties. Pretty interesting to compare the most and least penalized.

[DSUrocks07]

Did you go to the TSU-Sam game? There was barely 2000 people in that stadium, and the majority of them were Sam fans. That's absolutely sad. I know it was a Thursday night game, but you guys helped pay for that stadium and there were more Sam fans. I was sitting in the Presidents Club and could hear everything on the field.

I was surprised I didn't hear crickets.

I always hear about SWAC teams, and a couple MEAC teams that "under report" attendance. Where the published crowd would be 6,000 and someone would come out and say something to the effect of "There's no way there were only 6,000! I was there and the Home side was PACKED and I was on the visitors side and there were a TON of people over here too!!! It had to be at least 15,000 there!!!"

Idk... xscanx

[TheRevSFA]

I always hear about SWAC teams, and a couple MEAC teams that "under report" attendance. Where the published crowd would be 6,000 and someone would come out and say something to the effect of "There's no way there were only 6,000! I was there and the Home side was PACKED and I was on the visitors side and there were a TON of people over here too!!! It had to be at least 15,000 there!!!"

Idk... xscanx

All I am going to say.

16943

[WileECoyote06]

Panther88, looking at these stats, I'm in agreement with you (leading passer less than 200 yards, leading rusher less than 100 yards):
PASSING AVG/GAME Cl G Comp-Att-Int Pct. Yards TD Long Avg/G
1. Mason,Deaunte-AAMU SR 5 75 - 109 - 0 68.8 960 9 61 192.0
2. Joseph,Dray-SUBR JR 4 67 - 108 - 4 62.0 752 6 62 188.0
3. ANDERSON,Benjamin-UAPB SO 5 74 - 137 - 4 54.0 905 4 55 181.0
4. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 - 115 - 4 55.7 677 3 34 135.4
5. Moore,Clayton-JKST JR 5 50 - 94 - 2 53.2 653 3 67 130.6
6. McDonald,Dedric-JKST SR 5 55 - 108 - 4 50.9 581 3 38 116.2
7. Smith,Darius-ALCN JR 4 48 - 99 - 3 48.5 371 0 23 92.8
8. Williams, D.J.-GRAM FR 5 35 - 77 - 3 45.5 411 2 65 82.2
9. Rivers, Frank-GRAM JR 3 19 - 33 - 0 57.6 237 2 50 79.0
10. Parker,Dantavio-TXSO SR 4 22 - 59 - 3 37.3 302 4 59 75.5

1. Stansell, Brandon-MVSU SR 4 60 380 6.3 0 43 95.0
2. Lacey,Kaderius-AAMU SR 5 82 450 5.5 3 45 90.0
3. Crowell, Isaiah-ALST SO 5 67 343 5.1 6 61 68.6
4. BILLINGS,Justin-UAPB JR 5 57 318 5.6 2 39 63.6
5. Jenkins, Greg-ALST SR 5 64 299 4.7 6 29 59.8
6. Perkins-Loving,-TXSO JR 5 65 286 4.4 3 43 57.2
7. Anderson, Fred-PVAM SO 5 53 264 5.0 1 38 52.8
8. Runner, Jeremy-GRAM FR 4 53 200 3.8 2 27 50.0
9. Gooden,Tommy-JKST JR 5 37 225 6.1 1 23 45.0
10. Bateaste, Trey-MVSU SR 4 47 163 3.5 4 25 40.8

TOTAL DEFENSE G Rush Pass Plays Yards Avg/P TD Avg/G
1. Mississippi Valley 4 439 551 256 990 3.9 11 247.5
2. Arkansas-Pine Bluff 5 717 794 322 1511 4.7 13 302.2
3. Southern 4 570 681 243 1251 5.1 12 312.8
4. Jackson State 5 674 947 311 1621 5.2 19 324.2
5. Alabama A&M 5 830 807 319 1637 5.1 8 327.4
6. Alabama State 5 968 844 371 1812 4.9 13 362.4
7. Alcorn State 5 1332 738 318 2070 6.5 24 414.0
8. Grambling State 4 925 767 252 1692 6.7 17 423.0
9. Prairie View 5 1183 1155 364 2338 6.4 27 467.6
10. Texas Southern 5 1336 1223 377 2559 6.8 28 511.8

You also agreed with me. Those poor offensive numbers are directly correlated to offensive line play. If the QB has time, he can make throws. If the line can open up holes, the RB can run.

[GOODY26]

The Quality of football in the Swac and Meac is lacking in a lot of area that I can agree to. As a follower of Norfolk State football over the last 40 years I have seen a lot of changes. For starter under funding in all area of athletics, from the athletic director, to fans that come to game for the fashion show and the bands. I could talk about the social and economic issues faced by many HBCU, but that another story. We are behind in race that we'll probable never catch up. But the HBCU will still field football teams and play aginst other FCS teams. We might win a couple of games along the way. We haven't given up.

Peace to all, Goody26

[TheRevSFA]

The Quality of football in the Swac and Meac is lacking in a lot of area that I can agree to. As a follower of Norfolk State football over the last 40 years I have seen a lot of changes. For starter under funding in all area of athletics, from the athletic director, to fans that come to game for the fashion show and the bands. I could talk about the social and economic issues faced by many HBCU, but that another story. We are behind in race that we'll probable never catch up. But the HBCU will still field football teams and play aginst other FCS teams. We might win a couple of games along the way. We haven't given up.

Peace to all, Goody26

Hey I still respect NSU. I hope to see them have more success in the coming years

[BEAR]

I don't know...I find it exciting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeoV6aLX0Vg

[813Jag]

My hope is that our new coach (whether its Odums or whomever) builds the lines in both depth and quality. I don't believe playing in the postseason is the issue, because kids will play anywhere. I do feel that better scheduling is necessary. The nine game mandate did more damage than missing the playoffs ever did.

[Panther88]

You also agreed with me. Those poor offensive numbers are directly correlated to offensive line play. If the QB has time, he can make throws. If the line can open up holes, the RB can run.

Bingo. And I assert that it's a telling indictment as to what/who SWAC schools recruit, if they actually do have a plan of action for recruiting xsmhx. Have most noticed the lack of diversity along the sidelines? It's like most are completely accepting of the status quo, the little backwards mindset that fosters segregation(going to the "hood" to recruit only black kids lol). How stupid. How backwards. How dumb.

[Panther88]

Did you go to the TSU-Sam game? There was barely 2000 people in that stadium, and the majority of them were Sam fans. That's absolutely sad. I know it was a Thursday night game, but you guys helped pay for that stadium and there were more Sam fans. I was sitting in the Presidents Club and could hear everything on the field.

I was surprised I didn't hear crickets.
My mother and a few other relatives, who are SHSU grads, were txt'ing me from the game and she thought SHSU fans outnumbered sTu in the stadium. I told her I thought sTu the campus wasn't too far from the stadium so I didn't understand why students wouldn't pack it out. Maybe everyone knew abt the pending disaster and stayed away.

[superman7515]

Well, it looks like Spring Hill is moving to the SIAC, becoming the 2nd non-HBCU to join a HBCU conference at the D2 level. Maybe it's time for the SWAC to look outside the box.

Spring Hill College hopes to join NCAA, SIAC holding spot for Badgers (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/10/spring_hill_college_hopes_to_j.html)


The Southern Intercollegiate Athletic Conference has agreed to accept SHC as a member if it leaves its current home in the NAIA for NCAA Division II. Spring Hill's move to the SIAC would be groundbreaking because the rest of the conference's membership consists of historically black colleges and universities.

The SIAC office confirmed on Tuesday afternoon the league's intentions to accept the Badgers as conference members if they are accepted into NCAA Division II.

[smallcollegefbfan]

and this phenomena didn't just start in 2012. There are entirely TOO many glaring examples of how horrid it is, recent like. 2012, the SLC is 2-0 CONVINCINGLY vs 2 most recent SWAC "champions" in Prairie View A&M and texas southern universities (2009/2010 respectively). PVAMU losing to an upstart 3rd year SLC cellar dweller in Lamar Univ to the tune of 31-0 spoke volumes. The mere fact that SHSU entered texas southern's new home and rang up 50 pts and holding them to only 6 while SHSU played a smidget of 1st teamers here or there for 4 qrtrs spoke volumes again. If any witnessed the game last night, it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM, NON-DIVERSITY in recruitment/staff, and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions.

There is no other way to say this, and I certainly seek NO ONE's affirmation in cyber-land, other than folx I would consider intelligent, vs the latter I've had banter w/ over there --------> (open-enrollment type individuals)... Since the SWAC in total decided it wanted to purchase its own ball, create its own isolated fields for competition, and simultaneously w/draw itself from the integrated world by competing against schools that were deemed @ its level (former i-aa'ers), it has now become nothing short of a 5.5A HS laughing stock (the texas based FCS schools) in talent/presentation.

There are those ppl -----> of color (supporters of "HBCU" football, whatever in the hell that is) who REFUSE to 'ack' this issue and are very, very prone to desire to shoot the messenger (me, because I'm black, I guess xconfusedx ) when the vocal messenger REPEATS word-for-word almost VERBATIM the EXACT same words any FCS saavy individuals would state: SWAC football is putridly pitiful/horrible from the coaching down to the student-athletes down to the fans of "black college football." I've NEVER EVER been a fan of "black college football." I'd transitioned to being a fan of former I-A football to I-AA football now FCS football. If Prairie View A&M University, the program, doesn't desire to be a participant of the Division-I FCS level of football and continues to trend towards "black college football," this is one former supporter who will take his talents, $$$, and support elsewhere.

Ciao.

Yes it has gone downhill lately. Another convincing example is that Marquis Jackson was getting 3rd-5th round grades from NFL teams off his SWAC tape and yet he has become an average player at Portland State. He went from a star to the 3rd or 4th best defender on his team now. He's get priority free agent grades from most with a few 7th round grades after seeing his tape. The main reason some still see him as a possible draft pick is his flexibility, frame, and the fact that some feel if he gets stronger he could improve a good bit and that just takes a little time to do.

[dgtw]

Well, it looks like Spring Hill is moving to the SIAC, becoming the 2nd non-HBCU to join a HBCU conference at the D2 level. Maybe it's time for the SWAC to look outside the box.

Spring Hill College hopes to join NCAA, SIAC holding spot for Badgers (http://www.al.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/10/spring_hill_college_hopes_to_j.html)

Thanks for that information, that's interesting.

I looked around and found some HBCU message board where they had a thread about this. It was about three pages and nobody seemed to have a problem with it from a race standpoint. The main concern seemed to be the conference was getting too big (now 14 members if Spring Hill joins) and they do not play football.

[Sonic98]

and this phenomena didn't just start in 2012. There are entirely TOO many glaring examples of how horrid it is, recent like. 2012, the SLC is 2-0 CONVINCINGLY vs 2 most recent SWAC "champions" in Prairie View A&M and texas southern universities (2009/2010 respectively). PVAMU losing to an upstart 3rd year SLC cellar dweller in Lamar Univ to the tune of 31-0 spoke volumes. The mere fact that SHSU entered texas southern's new home and rang up 50 pts and holding them to only 6 while SHSU played a smidget of 1st teamers here or there for 4 qrtrs spoke volumes again. If any witnessed the game last night, it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM, NON-DIVERSITY in recruitment/staff, and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions.

There is no other way to say this, and I certainly seek NO ONE's affirmation in cyber-land, other than folx I would consider intelligent, vs the latter I've had banter w/ over there --------> (open-enrollment type individuals)... Since the SWAC in total decided it wanted to purchase its own ball, create its own isolated fields for competition, and simultaneously w/draw itself from the integrated world by competing against schools that were deemed @ its level (former i-aa'ers), it has now become nothing short of a 5.5A HS laughing stock (the texas based FCS schools) in talent/presentation.

There are those ppl -----> of color (supporters of "HBCU" football, whatever in the hell that is) who REFUSE to 'ack' this issue and are very, very prone to desire to shoot the messenger (me, because I'm black, I guess xconfusedx ) when the vocal messenger REPEATS word-for-word almost VERBATIM the EXACT same words any FCS saavy individuals would state: SWAC football is putridly pitiful/horrible from the coaching down to the student-athletes down to the fans of "black college football." I've NEVER EVER been a fan of "black college football." I'd transitioned to being a fan of former I-A football to I-AA football now FCS football. If Prairie View A&M University, the program, doesn't desire to be a participant of the Division-I FCS level of football and continues to trend towards "black college football," this is one former supporter who will take his talents, $$$, and support elsewhere.

Ciao.

You do realize than TxSU and PV probably can't beat anyone but each other this year, plus those are two of the most inconsistent programs out there. They can be great one season, then barely win any games the next. The 9-game mandate and the SWAC's lack of motivation to schedule non-conference games really since way back to the days when HBCU and what is now FCS were loaded with undiscovered talent that most of the BCS schools are getting now slowed the progression of the conference, but I think the winds of change are starting to blow at least a little bit now.

[Sonic98]

True diversity in america representing. lol

That's pretty sad, considering this day and age in time. I don't think some "hbcus" recvd the memo that we live in an integrated society as of 2012. xsmhx

Ignorance truly is bliss. I guess most NFL teams and a lot of the BCS teams and most of the top basketball colleges didn't get the memo either, since most of them are loaded with black players. These are HBCUs not exclusively black institutions. No one is making whites not attend school or play sports at any of these schools. Heck, I think they actually would qualify for scholarship money if they did. It's not blacks who are keeping these schools segregated. It's whites who don't want to go to a school or work in a place where they are the minority for a change not to mention the tenancy in a lot of places in America to tear down anything black whether it's an HBCU, a city with a majority black population, a city or state where a majority of the political leadership is black, or a business with majority black employment. Some people always find a way to speak negatively or perceive differently.

Jackson State gets more and more international students and Asian-American students every year. No one is keeping anyone from attending. It's funny people think we should go out and "get" more white students, but somehow it's reverse racism to tell the other schools to go out and get more black students. The staff at most schools is not even all black. Most schools have a diverse faculty and staff. It's historically black because that used to be the only place you could go where the majority of blacks who applied actually got in school. It's still a choice for many who don't want to go to a school that seems "too big." We're still probably a good choice, outside of the technical schools, for people who want a second chance at college. No one is being excluded who does not exclude themselves.

[Sonic98]

From an "outsider" perspective (never really followed the HBCU's too closely), it seems like even though the "quality" of football being played by many of the schools is in the lower levels of what most FCS schools play, that many of the schools (at least in the SWAC) have always been able to fall back on attendance and fan support.

If you look at FCS conference attendance numbers from last season, the SWAC averaged just under 13k fans per home game. Doesn't sound like much for some schools, but as a conference, that's actually #1 (ahead of the Southern, CAA, MVFC and Big Sky conferences). You see/hear stories about conference games like Arkansas-Pine Bluff taking on Jackson State in front of over 38k people (http://jsutigers.cstv.com/sports/m-footbl/stats/2011-2012/jsuuapb1.html), the Bayou Classic between Grambling and Southern bringing in 40k people, and see the renderings and photos of what Alabama State's new stadium is going to look like (http://www.newasustadium.com/).

It just seems like for many of the SWAC schools, there is a tremendous amount of fan support (at a level that most FCS schools would be jealous of), regardless of how well the team actually plays. I'm sure that a lot of fans are there just for the atmosphere/experience, to watch the bands (whether you like that style of band or not, what they do is unique and entertaining to a lot of people), or whatever, but the point is, even when the teams are doing badly, fans are still buying tickets and merchandise.

That being said, maybe Panther88's feelings are the "canary in the cage" for many fans, who, if they don't start seeing the level of play improve..."will take his talents, $$$, and support elsewhere." That trend may already be starting to happen, actually. If you look at the change in average for conference attendance from 2010 to 2011, only 5 conferences had a drop:
Southern Conference - down an average of 281 per game
MEAC - down 345 per game
Ivy League - down 182 per game
Ohio Valley - down 225 per game

and the SWAC - down 1,661 per game vs the previous year. They were still #1 in conference average attendance, but another drop of the same magnitude this year would drop them below the Southern, CAA and MVFC and into 4th. We'll see if that trend continues or of it stabilizes, but it sounds like, at least for some fans of the SWAC, without improvement on the field, the once-consistent fan support could start to dry up.

I have to agree and disagree. I think the actual percentage of people who are there just for the band gets smaller year after after. That's partially an excuse people use because they can't understand why these little small schools can have a game where 50 or 60K attend. The reason I think the percentage has changed is more and more people are staying at games until the end even when their team is not good. Yes, we still get a lot of people who leave at half-time, but you're seeing that less and less. Plus, it still leaves more people in the stadium than are at many other FCS schools.

Another reason SWAC attendance is down is people are having to get used to different teams having success for a little while. PV, TxSU, and UAPB don't have extremely large followings, but those teams have played in the SCG in recent years. The teams that have driven the popularity of the SWAC such as JSU and SU have not been terribly consistent lately. JSU has stayed in the top 10 most of the last 7 or 8 years, but now you see a trend where every 2 or 3 years you have a season or two where the average drops down to around 16K. It's going to take a while for these other teams to become as popular, and it doesn't help when teams like TxSU or PV are great one year then barely win a game the next.

Also, a lot of the fan support is not just because people like the bands. A lot of people just really love their alma mater or their local school. OF course there are a lot of BCS schools where people feel the same, but a lot of people at some of the bigger schools and the top FCS schools, just see their school as they place that got them them to the next phase in life. You always have to consider that SWAC schools have a high percentage of first-generation students who end up back at their local school by the end of first or second year. They might not be alumni but they still have some love for the school. The SWAC is like a couple other FCS conferences where the attendance outflanks the enrollment, but if more of us retained a higher percentage, our enrollments would be significantly higher than they are. We have a lot of "should be" alumni at our games.

I agree some of the attendance lose is lack of quality on the field. People aren't stupid. They see for instance JSU playing Miss State and getting totally beat down. They understand we're not BCS schools, but they also think a national championship is a national championship whether its FCS, D2, or D3. But another reason for the loss in attendance is that love for the local school is lessening. People don't feel the connection anymore. Alot of schools just assumed people will just keep coming to game because they always have. They don't market the team or school anymore. They don't have gameday or game week promotions anymore. They're not out in the community making connections anymore.

But to be honest I'm not worried about consistently dropping behind the other conferences. First, the teams that have always driven the numbers won't stay down long. Some of the other schools are getting more popular as they get more exposure. Schools across the board are making efforts to increase enrollment by significant numbers and target students in a wider variety of areas. Plus, alumni are getting restless. There at least 4 schools that get more and more vocal every year about the desire for an improvement in non-conference play and dropping the 9-game mandate. People are starting to recognize the problems some have been talking about for over a decade but where accused of just being complainers. More people are starting to see it. I think in some ways ASU beating Michigan made a lot of us look at ourselves. Plus, hey no one can stay on top forever. You're gonna have some down years eventually.


---------------post edit--------------------

I forgot to add that even GSU had some down years until Doug came back. Also, another reason SWAC attendance is high is because the conference is not spread out that much. The MEAC teams seem more spread out. Their fans rarely travel to away games. Half the time their bands don't go to all the away games. Some of the other conferences have more spread out teams. Alcorn, Valley, and JSU are right up the road from each other. Memphis is not far away when we play TnSU there. They're scared people won't come to the game if we have to play a school in say New Hampshire. But hey start off regionally if that's a concern. Valley basically has no football or band. IF they will come to that game, they will come if UT-Martin or Central Arkansas come to town. Bu there are about 4 teams in the conference who don't have a big following anyway, so how could it get any worse playing another FCS team?

[Sonic98]

Well put. If the HBCU's were to better get involved with the wider world of FCS, you'd see the quality of play improve, you'd see a spike in interest across the country, and I also believe you'd see better attendance figures you see now. Hopefully the powers-that-be will understand that someday.

And your quote of "it was painfully obvious that ISOLATIONISM.. and LACK of TRUE INTELLIGENT planning from the top down are on display @ these respective institutions" could be applied to the Ivy League as well. Like the SWAC, better engagement with the rest of the subdivision would not only be better for the schools involved, there would probably be material benefits as well.

Trust some understand it. The Alumni base at a few schools are getting tired of the isolation. I know alumni at both JSU and Alcorn have been very vocal about wanting to end the revolving door of coaches who've left other HBCU programs and actually look at head coaches and AD's with more varied experiences. I know the James Bell years at Jackson State have made some people nervous, but a lot of people are calling for better non-conference opponents, increases in coaches salary, and paying attention to more than just 2 or 3 positions on a team. It's cool hiring someone who had success at another HBCU or even alumni as coach, but I think a lot of people are starting to realize what worked 25 years ago isn't going to work anymore. College football has just changed too much.

[Sonic98]

One of the refrains from SWAC fans as well as fans on this board is that they don't fully fund or even moderately fund their athletic programs. As a concerned fan/alum/booster, you should first ask why the SWAC, which has attendance numbers to envy for most FCS conferences doesn't see a return on their fan's loyalty?

Then point your ire towards the institutions, and if possible send those questions in with 'postage' (money) to get your concerns heard.

A lot of people at the game are not alumni or students. Even at the BCS schools, the people who are not alumni who are just fans probably aren't donating a lot of money to the schools. The money comes from boosters. A lot of people can't afford to support the schools outside of the money they spend on tickets, but that's also because the schools don't stress to people that you don't have to be a $200 or $500 donor to support the school. Heck a thousand people giving 10 dollars would be significant. But the organizations that act as boosters for the athletics departments do no better job of marketing themselves than the schools and teams do. A closed mouth doesn't get fed.


I can only speak for my school we hit a low point in football and basketball in the last few years, with poor leadership in the entire Athletic Department. Hate to sound like a back in the day guy, but any team in Southern's run in the 90's was well conditioned. Our teams the last few years have not been. But I fell like the response to that debacle that we had on ESPNU a couple weeks ago shows that we have people in place that want to increase the brand of Southern University.

One aspect of the "separation" arguement I agree with is that there's a huge emphasis placed on beating each other up in league play. You don't see that intensity in non conference games unless it's a MEAC/Tennessee St game. I feel like part of that comes from having coaches that are a part of the SWAC circle. As long as we recycle coaches then that mentality will never change. We build teams to beat each other, not to compete with the rest of the schedule.

This bolded statement has always been a pet peeve of mine, the Bayou Classic and Turkey Day classic don't prevent the league as a whole from the playoffs. That Championship Game (which I'm not a fan of) is the problem. I want somebody to honestly answer this (and I know most teams can beat ours so lets leave that out), if missing out on the post season is one of the big problems for the SWAC, what the hell is the excuse of the teams in the playoff leagues that suck?

I can't seem the find the other post i Was going to reply to, but they were correct. They said something about the conference leadership being the problem. I can't disagree there. The leadership is stuck in the past and believes "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." A lot of them are worried if we go outside of the HBCU world too much, we won't be number 1 in attendance anymore. They're worried about people not coming to games. It's stupid because the biggest SWAC match-ups will like JSU vs SU will still bring in numbers. Most of our games against FCS teams will probably be on the road anyway. And Trust me, if people will come to a game where you're playing Valley, PV, or TxSU, they'll come see you play almost anyone. They'll come see you play a high school.



But that is a tradition there...

Texas Band of Thieves Stuns Japanese Hosts (http://articles.latimes.com/1992-12-16/news/mn-1947_1_university-band)

Like Texas Southern is first school to have members of a group get in trouble or travel somewhere and there is an incident. WHat does this have to do with what we're talking about anyway. Hey Mods I guess you can merge a few of my post. I thought this forum had flow control and double post control


For Texas Southern, yes
but keep in mind schools like Southern and Jackson State have lead FCS/I-AA in attendance when they are winning...J-State still holds the record for the highest attendance avg.

Actually this was the question I was coming to the site today to ask. What is the single-season attendance record?



That depends on your ranking system and what you like. Band styles are subjective. Personally, I like what is called "corps style marching" (do a youtube search for drum and bugle corps and you'll see what that is) because that's how I learned how to march, did through 4 years of high school, 7 years of drum corps and most of my 5 years in college marching band. I also like loud but with good quality sound (it is possible to do both).

Many HBCU bands have a different style. Generally lots of straight lines, high stepping, quite often more modern music. If you've ever seen the Battle of the Bands at the Bayou Classic or the movie Drumline, then that's what I'm talking about (here's a video of Jackson State University's marching band, for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW80DV9PKi8)). In my opinion, many of the HBCU bands that I've seen have a tendency to try to just be as loud as they possibly can be without regard to quality of sound (just my opinion, I know many people really enjoy that style).

Then you have "Big 10 style" marching bands (Ohio State, for example (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WdWolVsKlAI)). Like the HBCU style, they often use a high step, or sometimes a toe-first marching style. Also like the HBCU's, they quite often do a lot of straight lines and blocks in their drill formations, sometimes spelling out things (like Script Ohio). Unlike the HBCU style, it seems like many of the "Big 10 style" bands play with a bit less volume, but sometimes better tone quality.

I'm not saying that one style is better than another. Many schools have longstanding traditions about how their marching band acts, marches, and plays, and that works great for them. If the band members enjoy what they are doing and the fans enjoy what they are seeing, then it doesn't matter to me what style they are performing.

I don't think it comes down to style preference, being subjective, or how you choose to rank at all. I personally feel that only thing bands have in the BCS conferences and schools like BCU/FAMU have on a band like JSU or SU is size. A lot of people think all HBCU bands play is pop music. That's probably true of a school like Alcorn or Valley. But some schools like say JSU, BCU, or FAMU play the same music as the PWC and can play it just as well. We'll play marches, latin jazz, blues, classical, and music from movies and video games just as they will. Many of us do it enough just to prove we CAN do it, then choose to do things in our style the majority of the time. Even in our shows we mix it up. We might do a patriotic theme for example and play America the Beautiful, Stars & Stripes, and God Bless America and make a shape of the US. Also, a lot of schools are getting away from doing just straight-line based shows. You're seeing more bands even the smaller ones do picture shows like OSU and Cal's "video game" shows. SOme of the MEAC schools have been doing it for a while because there bands are so much bigger. We have to do more with less. Our bands are generally smaller. And most of our people coming in need a lot more help getting on college level. Some schools in other conferences have people wh been playing their instrument since 5th game. They might have had private lessons and went to all these different camps. They had bigger high school band staffs or at least ones that worked more directly in training the students. We get people who just joined band senior year. That's not to say we don't get a lot of people who were all-state or made some type of honors band, but we get a lot of people who need a lot of work. And some bands are even mixing it corp style elements from time to time, so we're doing it all. I do think the style is harder to get high marks on.Unless you're big you don't keep a lot of people facing front.

As for the clips you posted, I actually think I like the 2012 Honda performance better, but I hate the GA-Dome.....worse acoustic for bands out there. Superdome ain't far behind.

Jackson State Band 2012 Honda (http://youtu.be/HhdDIvDIcRM)

Southern Band 2011 ATL Classic (http://youtu.be/Mm-Q45cCDPw)


The SWAC, as it currently is as a whole, is NOT relevant in the 2012 FCS football landscape. OOC vs the SWAC, the following has occurred to date:

PVAMU vs Lamar (lost miserably 31-0 to a 3rd year FCS program considered a cellar dweller in the SLC)
sTu vs SHSU (lost 50-6 to fellow FCSer from the SLC)
PVAMU vs NDSU (lost 66-7 and it could've EASILY been 100-0 if the 1st teamers had stayed for 4 full qrtrs - fellow FCSer)

SU vs UNM (lost 66-21 to a new coaching staff and underabundance of FBS D-I players - mostly newbies)
UAPB vs Langston (won 17-14 over a D-II member)
AAMU vs Tuskegee (won 7-6 over a D-II member)
JSU vs MissStU (lost 56-9 to cellar dweller SEC squad)
BCU vs AlaStU (lost 38-28 to fellow FCS member from the MEAC)
JSU vs TnStU (lost 38-12 to fellow FCS member from the OVC)
UNT vs TxSu (lost 34-7 to a rebuilding FCS squad cloaked in FBS garb)
TCU vs GSU (lost 56-0 to strong FBS squad)
NWST vs MVSU (lost 45-14 to middle-tier FCS squad from the SLC)

SU takes on FAMU today and TennStU takes on SWAC West leading UAPB. The tale of the tape shall ensue again today if the SWAC goes o'fer yet again, which all indications are that it will. All the variables are there (UAPB was highly undisciplined and SU just made a recent HC'ing change a few weeks ago).

I am NOT a fan of "Black College Football(BCF)," as so many SWAC alums are. I AM a fan of FCS and FBS football. The prevailing mindset amongst numerous in the SWAC is that they're fans of BCF and not fans of FCS football. I'm for competitivity @ the highest level, against anyone FBS or FCS alike. Unless one wants to call a club team in Concordia beatig up on an ill-equipped "FCS" team in Mississippi Valley State University competitive. D-IIers and club teams once owned the SWAC's lower-tier'd schools earlier-recent and even today they fight for their very lives in competition against them (football wise).

I've gone away from smacking and ridiculing and am actually seeking input from others who are knowledgeable, neutral, and objective. Interestingly enough, I've been researching college athletics-academia from recruitment down to the actual student-athletes themselves since my jr yr of hs, immediately after leading my then 5A team to the tx state quarterfinal round. It was my personal treatment for blame in losing the game (3fumbles-2INTs vs "mojo") and the words immediately afterwards that fueled my inner rage coupled w/ my desire for some type of understanding how adults, collegiate and non-collegiate (fans) alike, could mistreat and verbally abuse a 16 y/o kid over a fball game. Even a few univ recruiters(former i-a'ers) made mention of the disastrous game as they smiled in my face and lol'd about it while attempting to convince me I'd make a great FS lol - from QB to FS, sure lol. So, an apathy developed and obviously I've maintained it as I try to error on the side of what's right and proper for young student-athletes. Sorry for diverting. Just giving rationale for why I'm so passionate about what I see on the field of play.


Weird for some strange reason, after a couple replies, post seem to stop being deleting from my multi-quote que and I have to delete them from the post anyway that's neither here nor there. FIrst off TxSU and PV suck this year. PV is probably as bad as they were when they lost like 50 in a row. JSU has had recent success against TnSU, though they did dominate the early 2K's after JSU dominated most of the time before that. ASU didn't exactly get blown out by BCU. And JSU had some pretty close calls in some of those playoffs we used to play in before this SCG BS. We probably could have won some of those games if they did what people are calling for now and had a tougher non-conference schedule. Things will soon be changing in the SWAC because people want more. But why so much hate my man? Your team rarely plays a HCBU, so why does whatever happen have an effect on you either way. And the reason most BCF fans are not FCS fans is because BCF is still regional for the most part. Fans know about the teams in their conference and the schools within a hundred miles whether it's FCS, D2, or D3. That's like saying why aren't you an SEC fan when there are no SEC teams in your state and your school never plays any. The average sports fans doesn't know the difference between FBS and FCS. We real fanatics do. Most people probably can't name an FCS school of even a non-BCS school if it's not in their state or region. Most people didn't know who ASU was before they beat Michigan. I don't think most people probably don't know UT-Martin is an FCS school. They just know it's a school not that far from MEmphis. A few probably know now than they did a couple months ago with them beating MEmphis. I'm not an "FBS Fan" I just like certain FBS schools. To be perfectly honest I don't even really follow FBS football that much. Most people aren't FCS fans because they're simply fans of their own school or favorite team. They don't know who GA Southern or JMU is. They probably haven't even heard of 90% of the FCS schools outside of their region. Nobody in BCF is anti-FCS. They're just unfamiliar.

[Sonic98]

I don't know...I find it exciting.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WeoV6aLX0Vg

Yeah because a football fight has NEVER happened outside the SWAC.



Bingo. And I assert that it's a telling indictment as to what/who SWAC schools recruit, if they actually do have a plan of action for recruiting xsmhx. Have most noticed the lack of diversity along the sidelines? It's like most are completely accepting of the status quo, the little backwards mindset that fosters segregation(going to the "hood" to recruit only black kids lol). How stupid. How backwards. How dumb.

Well, at least you started off making an intelligent point. Coaches don't only go into the "hood" looking for black kids. SWAC coaches are out there recruiting guys from all over the place. They're also looking at JUCO transfers. And since you brought it up, most SWAC schools are located in poorer regions or the "hood." There isn't a school in the country that doesn't first start off recruiting the players closest to them. Last I checked JSU had a white QB last couple seasons, and he wasn't the first. I've seen linemen and defensive players of all races. I'm even starting to see more non-blacks in the stands at games. Did you like grow up in a mostly black school system and get bullied or something? You seem to have something against more than a certain number of black people being in the same place at the same time. And you can't hire people who don't interview.

At least you do make good point. SWAC coaches do not focus enough on every position on the field in recruiting, but it didn't start with is. The SWAC didn't invent the recent obsession with skill players. We need to adjust our priorities. We're focus on players we're not going to have trouble getting anyway. We know FCS schools don't have as many scholarships as FBS, but we can be smarter about building a team from the lines and working up. As for sideline diversity. It has nothing to do with excluding anyone. SWAC schools just have a bad habit of recycling coaches or wanting to hire people with some connection to the university. Plus, it's not like a lot of our guys are getting a chance to go to other schools and maybe bring a more diverse staff back with them.

[Panther88]

You're absolutely unequivocally correct Sonic98. The SWAC vs OOC D-I FBS, D-I FCS, and D-II is very, very, VERY competitive from top to bottom and wins @ a clip > 50.99999999999999%.

What the hell was I thinking?

*someone post the crazy smiley below my response plz. I have a meeting to attend shortly and don't have time to look for a good one that's applicable here*

[App1928]

Look, if the team you support is an HBCU, support your damn team regardless. But this is not an issue of individual athletic departments or conference leadership. Top football players do not want to go play in that kind of atmosphere. I grew up going to NC A&T games, and the HBCU football culture turns football into a large family reunion. Food, bands, and dancing are more important than football. IF HBCU schools are content with getting there tails kicked by real football teams everytime they play so they can play each others weak schools and dance in the stadium then they have the right to do it. Schools on an individual basis must decide their vision. SWAC schools not being allowed to go to the playoffs does not matter, because these schools are so terrible they would never make the playoffs, and if they did they would draw a SoCon or CAA team who would eat them alive.

I personally find 'black leagues' to be incredibly racist and innapropriate in this time in history....but I'm white, so maybe I dont understand (this remark was sarcastic, its just as racist as calling every other school a historically white college), but regardless of your opinion on that, they produce crappy football teams with a crappy football atmosphere, and the best high school players want to play for real teams.

[Panther88]

App, I was semi-w/ you until you said -> "support your damn team regardless." You do see where you contradicted self, do you not? xconfusedx Also, would YOU support a *quote* "crappy team" *unquote*? Your words. :)

I bring attention to a matter that is quite unacceptable. To put it in your terms, they're "crappy." Also, what is a "real football team?" What you're asserting is the IDENTICALLY same mindset those FBS/BCS grads foster when speaking of FCS. Careful.

[Sonic98]

You're absolutely unequivocally correct Sonic98. The SWAC vs OOC D-I FBS, D-I FCS, and D-II is very, very, VERY competitive from top to bottom and wins @ a clip > 50.99999999999999%.

What the hell was I thinking?

*someone post the crazy smiley below my response plz. I have a meeting to attend shortly and don't have time to look for a good one that's applicable here*

When did I say the SWAC was competitive against the FBS or the top FCS teams. Those words never hit the screen, but that's beside the point because I'm not challenging the basic point made in the title of this thread. SWAC football is terrible right now or at least below average, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a strong desire among a few schools to change that. Schools are looking at increasing budgets, improving facilities, changing non-conference schedules, and considering different people for HCs and ADs. Change has to start somewhere, and the people who want change are getting louder and more vocal every year.



Look, if the team you support is an HBCU, support your damn team regardless. But this is not an issue of individual athletic departments or conference leadership. Top football players do not want to go play in that kind of atmosphere. I grew up going to NC A&T games, and the HBCU football culture turns football into a large family reunion. Food, bands, and dancing are more important than football. IF HBCU schools are content with getting there tails kicked by real football teams everytime they play so they can play each others weak schools and dance in the stadium then they have the right to do it. Schools on an individual basis must decide their vision. SWAC schools not being allowed to go to the playoffs does not matter, because these schools are so terrible they would never make the playoffs, and if they did they would draw a SoCon or CAA team who would eat them alive.

I personally find 'black leagues' to be incredibly racist and innapropriate in this time in history....but I'm white, so maybe I dont understand (this remark was sarcastic, its just as racist as calling every other school a historically white college), but regardless of your opinion on that, they produce crappy football teams with a crappy football atmosphere, and the best high school players want to play for real teams.


I could not disagree more, but I guess you will see things how you want to see them.

First, what is with the current culture where honest criticism = lack of support? You can support your school, and still point out a lot of the things you think are wrong. That's not just for sports. There is nothing wrong with wanting more.

Also. I wasn't aware you spoke for all high school recruits. Your ASU is not the center of the world. If you're coming out of high school, you're going to want to go to the best possible school you can. That means one of the top BCS schools. Then your second choice is going to be the mid-level FBS schools that people think are just as good as the BCS school. After that it's either a roll of the dice, a matter of personal preference, or going where you'll be accepted. You'll base your decision on coaching visits and visits to the campus. There is not an athlete out there who will not consider say an NC A&T if they think the team has a good coach, a good environment, good facilities, they'll get exposure. They may ultimately choose a school with more post-season success, but they're not going to rule out them JUST BECAUSE they're an HBCU. It might bother some white athletes, but black athletes are not going to ignore a school simply on the basis of being an HBCU.

Of course if some teams where to go to the playoffs this year, they would do extremely poorly. Most of us are not where we need to be to be competitive. We've have very little playoff success in the past, but that doesn't mean the teams were not talented or competitive. Some of those JSU teams that didn't do so great in the playoffs, gave some teams like USM a real run for their money. Of course we wouldn't do well in the playoffs now, but the winds of change are blowing. Alumni want athletic budgets increased so facilities can be improved, coaches can be paid more, and schools have be fully staffed. They want coaching searches to go deeper. They understand that recycling coaches isn't the answer. They know what worked 25 years ago isn't going to work anymore. It has nothing to do with not caring about winning. Most schools don't have a history of winning. Would you care about winning if you went to PV? They lost like a hundred games in a row. Anyone would stop caring at that point.

For a long time JSU, GSU, and SU basically dominated the SWAC and it wasn't even close. These other schools aren't used to winning. They're just starting to get that fire in their belly. The whole idea that the SWAC could never be good because they don't care about winning is BS. The SWAC has fixable problems. There are 3 or 4 of us that have the ability to fix the problem:increased athletic budget, going after better coaches, improving facilities, and a better non-conference schedule. You don't think Alabama State has a desire to win outside the SWAC? As teams like Bama State get better and have bigger goals, the other school won't want to be left behind.

[DSUrocks07]

When did I say the SWAC was competitive against the FBS or the top FCS teams. Those words never hit the screen, but that's beside the point because I'm not challenging the basic point made in the title of this thread. SWAC football is terrible right now or at least below average, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a strong desire among a few schools to change that. Schools are looking at increasing budgets, improving facilities, changing non-conference schedules, and considering different people for HCs and ADs. Change has to start somewhere, and the people who want change are getting louder and more vocal every year.

As long as that happens and its not just lip service on the part of the respective administrations then that is a good thing. It's not gonna happen overnight, but if the seeds are sown then they have the potential to grow. I still feel that its in the best interest of some of the members of the SWAC (and MEAC as well) to pursue joining other regional FCS conferences in the future.

[Panther88]

When did I say the SWAC was competitive against the FBS or the top FCS teams. Those words never hit the screen, but that's beside the point because I'm not challenging the basic point made in the title of this thread. SWAC football is terrible right now or at least below average, but that doesn't change the fact that there is a strong desire among a few schools to change that. Schools are looking at increasing budgets, improving facilities, changing non-conference schedules, and considering different people for HCs and ADs. Change has to start somewhere, and the people who want change are getting louder and more vocal every year.

If there are actions behind your words up there ^^^^^^^^, I'm on the same page as you.

But right now, at THIS moment in time, it's horrific, from bottom to top. No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

[Sonic98]

As long as that happens and its not just lip service on the part of the respective administrations then that is a good thing. It's not gonna happen overnight, but if the seeds are sown then they have the potential to grow. I still feel that its in the best interest of some of the members of the SWAC (and MEAC as well) to pursue joining other regional FCS conferences in the future.

Some of us are looking at leaving the SWAC. Right now we're paying Comegy more than we paid any coach in the history of JSU, and they're talking about supplementing the next person's income even more. The Blue Bengals, the athletics department primary booster are trying to raise money to have to team actually be fully staffed. There has been discussion of starting or joining another conference, but I think the problem is a lot of people have expressed concerns about a conference where teams are too spread out regionally. People just have to start talking less with their mouth and more with their money. Money talks......and........well you know the rest.

[dgtw]

Whi is it such a bad thing the SWAC plays a nine game conference schedule? The league has ten teams, what is wrong with playing everyone?

I think the no playoff rule and playing mostly other HBCUs in OOC games is what makes them appear to be isolationist.

[putter]

Great discussion. My question is why would these institutions feel the need to increase funding for athletics -to put a better product on the field - when they are being treated differently by the media? I turn on the TV and ESPN has the "HBCU" game of the week broadcast. I don't see the CAA or SoCon game of the week and, as has been pointed out before, quality of play is much, much better. If I am getting my games on national TV because of the historical significance of the school why should that school feel the need to upgrade? Love to see it as these schools, if they became consistently successful in the playoffs, as they would bring a huge following for the FCS.

[DSUrocks07]

Whi is it such a bad thing the SWAC plays a nine game conference schedule? The league has ten teams, what is wrong with playing everyone?

I think the no playoff rule and playing mostly other HBCUs in OOC games is what makes them appear to be isolationist.

It limits their options for playing those OOCs. (Nearly) Every SWAC team plays an FBS school (money game) and a D2 (home game revenue) each season. Combined with their 9 game conference slate, no room for FCS matchups.

The SWAC should be a 9 team (maybe 8 team) conference.

[dgtw]

Given the history of the SWAC and the shared history the schools have (which runs deeper than just football), it would be awfully tough to imagine anyone leaving. And where would everyone go? The OVC has 12 members, nine for football and the Southland will soon have 14/12 members.

[Panther88]

I think the no playoff rule and playing mostly other HBCUs in OOC games is what makes them appear to be isolationist.

+1. xsmhx

[WileECoyote06]

Given the history of the SWAC and the shared history the schools have (which runs deeper than just football), it would be awfully tough to imagine anyone leaving. And where would everyone go? The OVC has 12 members, nine for football and the Southland will soon have 14/12 members.

They know good and well, those schools aren't going anywhere. Take a look at the athletic expenditures. No other conference will accept an institution that invests so little in their athletic programs. You won't be able to compete anyway.

[Sonic98]

As long as that happens and its not just lip service on the part of the respective administrations then that is a good thing. It's not gonna happen overnight, but if the seeds are sown then they have the potential to grow. I still feel that its in the best interest of some of the members of the SWAC (and MEAC as well) to pursue joining other regional FCS conferences in the future.

Even Alcorn decided to go outside of the HBCU world to find a HC, and they won't be the last.


Whi is it such a bad thing the SWAC plays a nine game conference schedule? The league has ten teams, what is wrong with playing everyone?

I think the no playoff rule and playing mostly other HBCUs in OOC games is what makes them appear to be isolationist.

Because you only get two non-conference games a year. For Jackson that is already an issue for us because it's not like that TnSU will come off our schedule as out non-conference opponent for a loong time. That only leaves you one other game, and some schools do use one of those two games for a non-HBCU. I just don't feel like 2 is enough if you want to test the waters against other HBCUs.


Great discussion. My question is why would these institutions feel the need to increase funding for athletics -to put a better product on the field - when they are being treated differently by the media? I turn on the TV and ESPN has the "HBCU" game of the week broadcast. I don't see the CAA or SoCon game of the week and, as has been pointed out before, quality of play is much, much better. If I am getting my games on national TV because of the historical significance of the school why should that school feel the need to upgrade? Love to see it as these schools, if they became consistently successful in the playoffs, as they would bring a huge following for the FCS.

Because there is a difference between being talked about on TV and getting revenue from it. And would you want your school to have Valley's budget? They probably don't even have as many assistants as your team. To get better coaches you have to pay more. To get players you have to have scholarship money for them. I never see "HBCU Game of the Week" anywhere, and I don't live too far from quite a few. Of course budget is not everything, but it is very important. If you build better facilities, they have to be maintained. Money is a part in so many things.



They know good and well, those schools aren't going anywhere. Take a look at the athletic expenditures. No other conference will accept an institution that invests so little in their athletic programs. You won't be able to compete anyway.

Some of us do want to invest in our programs

[813Jag]

Whi is it such a bad thing the SWAC plays a nine game conference schedule? The league has ten teams, what is wrong with playing everyone?

I think the no playoff rule and playing mostly other HBCUs in OOC games is what makes them appear to be isolationist.
Nothing is wrong with nine games, but having a title game as well is stupid.

Speaking only for Southern, our OOC schedule would be Northwestern St, Nicholls St (or a classic), and FAMU. Now its New Mexico (other money game) and FAMU (or DII). Not only do you lose a competitive ooc game but also an extra home game.

[App1928]

App, I was semi-w/ you until you said -> "support your damn team regardless." You do see where you contradicted self, do you not? xconfusedx Also, would YOU support a *quote* "crappy team" *unquote*? Your words. :)

I bring attention to a matter that is quite unacceptable. To put it in your terms, they're "crappy." Also, what is a "real football team?" What you're asserting is the IDENTICALLY same mindset those FBS/BCS grads foster when speaking of FCS. Careful.


Support your team regardless. But the leagues and the atmospheres they cater too are killing your team. And yes...'real team is relative' however within the division SWAC teams compete (FCS)....they are not competitive. And in MY opinion, my previous entry HELPS explain why.

[Panther88]

Support your team regardless. But the leagues and the atmospheres they cater too are killing your team. And yes...'real team is relative' however within the division SWAC teams compete (FCS)....they are not competitive. And in MY opinion, my previous entry HELPS explain why.

"Yes," you would support a crappy team? xconfusedx Regardless. xconfusedx

The atmosphere of WINNING is a great atmosphere to exist in. I'm not understanding the family reunion junk. Some of us don't do that. We're there for the GAME. Damn everything else that occurs around that. Maybe it's just me.

[GAD]

Great discussion. My question is why would these institutions feel the need to increase funding for athletics -to put a better product on the field - when they are being treated differently by the media? I turn on the TV and ESPN has the "HBCU" game of the week broadcast. I don't see the CAA or SoCon game of the week and, as has been pointed out before, quality of play is much, much better. If I am getting my games on national TV because of the historical significance of the school why should that school feel the need to upgrade? Love to see it as these schools, if they became consistently successful in the playoffs, as they would bring a huge following for the FCS.
TV isn't just about the product on the field, it's also about the level of interest you can create and the SWAC and MEAC do a pretty good job of that

[Sonic98]

"Yes," you would support a crappy team? xconfusedx Regardless. xconfusedx

The atmosphere of WINNING is a great atmosphere to exist in. I'm not understanding the family reunion junk. Some of us don't do that. We're there for the GAME. Damn everything else that occurs around that. Maybe it's just me.


Support your team regardless. But the leagues and the atmospheres they cater too are killing your team. And yes...'real team is relative' however within the division SWAC teams compete (FCS)....they are not competitive. And in MY opinion, my previous entry HELPS explain why.

I'm sorry but you two don't know what you're talking about at all. Cater to an atmosphere? Family Reunion? WTH are you talking about? Yall are basing your opinion on a handful of times you went to games with someone or heard people talk about games. No one goes to games for a "family reunion." You can do all that when you tailgate or in the events surrounding the game. How are you going to tell someone else why they go to a game? If they're going to the game just to be going, then they have no real connection to either school anyway. And even if it were true, how is it any different than people who are not associated with either school going to the Bowl game that's hosted in their city or some other type of event. I think yall have the concept of the "Classics" all messed up. If you think people who are going to these games don't care if their team wins, you're crazy. Yes, we do advertise the games and attract people who don't attend either school, but trust that the majority of the people are picking a side. Go to the Magic City Classic, JSU vs SU, The Bayou Classic, The Capital City Classic, or JSU vs TnSU and tell me people don't care who wins the game. IF you go to an HBCU game and the people don't care who wins, you're probably looking at at least one of the schools being one that doesn't win too often. Trust me folks ain't packing out Memorial Stadium just to come and see JSU lose. What do you have to riot when your team loses to prove you cared? The "atmosphere" has nothing to do with winning ball games. The reason many schools are not better off is not because they don't care about winning. It's because most of us failed to modernize our programs in the 90s and early 2K's and we kept ourselves too isolated from the rest of FCS, not mention having less resources than all the other FCS schools and barely much more than some D2 schools. But that's all starting to changing. More is being invested in athletics. Schools are taking a second look at the kind of people they've hired for President, AD, and coach in the past.

[rexreed]

I'm a fan of the SWAC as well but the level of play for both the football teams and the bands is in the toilet. I work with a guy from Grambling that swears the reason the SWAC doesn't do the playoffs is because of racism that prevents any SWAC team from getting a fair shake. His evidence to support the claim is a barn burner playoff game back in the 80's or early 90's between Grambling and SFA. SFA wins (later vacated) so that was proof that the NCAA is racist. He also seems to think that the level of football has not declined- his head is in the sand and it is pretty hard to convince him otherwise. I suspect there are many more like him but have to say it is refreshing to see some SWAC supporters that share my opinion of the conference. How many games must Grambling lose before they wake up and decide to start competing with the other schools in Lousiana that are not the Jags?

[rexreed]

TV isn't just about the product on the field, it's also about the level of interest you can create and the SWAC and MEAC do a pretty good job of that
The last couple SWAC games I watched were horrible. Poor coaching and athletes that looked like they just started playing their senior year of HS.

[GAD]

The last couple SWAC games I watched were horrible. Poor coaching and athletes that looked like they just started playing their senior year of HS.
Sam Houston went undefeated last season.... yet how many times did they sell out there stadium?

[WileECoyote06]

I'm sorry but you two don't know what you're talking about at all. Cater to an atmosphere? Family Reunion? WTH are you talking about? Yall are basing your opinion on a handful of times you went to games with someone or heard people talk about games. No one goes to games for a "family reunion." You can do all that when you tailgate or in the events surrounding the game. How are you going to tell someone else why they go to a game? If they're going to the game just to be going, then they have no real connection to either school anyway. And even if it were true, how is it any different than people who are not associated with either school going to the Bowl game that's hosted in their city or some other type of event. I think yall have the concept of the "Classics" all messed up. If you think people who are going to these games don't care if their team wins, you're crazy. Yes, we do advertise the games and attract people who don't attend either school, but trust that the majority of the people are picking a side. Go to the Magic City Classic, JSU vs SU, The Bayou Classic, The Capital City Classic, or JSU vs TnSU and tell me people don't care who wins the game. IF you go to an HBCU game and the people don't care who wins, you're probably looking at at least one of the schools being one that doesn't win too often. Trust me folks ain't packing out Memorial Stadium just to come and see JSU lose. What do you have to riot when your team loses to prove you cared? The "atmosphere" has nothing to do with winning ball games. The reason many schools are not better off is not because they don't care about winning. It's because most of us failed to modernize our programs in the 90s and early 2K's and we kept ourselves too isolated from the rest of FCS, not mention having less resources than all the other FCS schools and barely much more than some D2 schools. But that's all starting to changing. More is being invested in athletics. Schools are taking a second look at the kind of people they've hired for President, AD, and coach in the past.

Well said. For someone who went to Aggie games growing up, he must have never witnessed the Farmers play the Eagles, Rams, or the Bulldogs. If the only time you went to an Aggie game was during homecoming, then you did witness a 'family reunion' type atmosphere. That's the point of homecoming. But when the bumpkins play their rivals; especially us; believe me it's heated.

The same can be said for the rivalries of other MEAC and SWAC schools.

[dgtw]

Rightly or wrongly, the "Classic" games do have a perception of a family reunion type of thing where people are more there to party, hang out and watch the bands than care about a football game. At least that seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

My wife once worked at a women's clothing store near Legion Field in Brimingham. The neighborhood is mostly black. She said their biggest sales week was always the week of the Magic City Classic.

[Panther88]

I'm sorry but you two don't know what you're talking about at all. Cater to an atmosphere? Family Reunion? WTH are you talking about? Yall are basing your opinion on a handful of times you went to games with someone or heard people talk about games. No one goes to games for a "family reunion." You can do all that when you tailgate or in the events surrounding the game. How are you going to tell someone else why they go to a game? If they're going to the game just to be going, then they have no real connection to either school anyway. And even if it were true, how is it any different than people who are not associated with either school going to the Bowl game that's hosted in their city or some other type of event. I think yall have the concept of the "Classics" all messed up. If you think people who are going to these games don't care if their team wins, you're crazy. Yes, we do advertise the games and attract people who don't attend either school, but trust that the majority of the people are picking a side. Go to the Magic City Classic, JSU vs SU, The Bayou Classic, The Capital City Classic, or JSU vs TnSU and tell me people don't care who wins the game. IF you go to an HBCU game and the people don't care who wins, you're probably looking at at least one of the schools being one that doesn't win too often. Trust me folks ain't packing out Memorial Stadium just to come and see JSU lose. What do you have to riot when your team loses to prove you cared? The "atmosphere" has nothing to do with winning ball games. The reason many schools are not better off is not because they don't care about winning. It's because most of us failed to modernize our programs in the 90s and early 2K's and we kept ourselves too isolated from the rest of FCS, not mention having less resources than all the other FCS schools and barely much more than some D2 schools. But that's all starting to changing. More is being invested in athletics. Schools are taking a second look at the kind of people they've hired for President, AD, and coach in the past.

I really don't know what you're talking about Sonic98, at all. What I know is I, first person SINGULAR, attend(ed) games to witness GOOD football and hopefully witness a victory by the squad I'm pulling for. Nothing else or anyone else matters to me @ that point, including a funky band, frat, soror, et al.

Also, rexreed is right. Looking @ SWAC play today, 10/12/2012 is on par w/ looking @ teams just above the level of D-II in athletic talent. Or, has the trouncing the SWAC took this year OOC still not convinced you and others like you yet? xlolx And don't just say the stupid "but dey wuz FBS SEC schools" bull either. There were FCS losses and one club team loss to a church school in there as well.

[Panther88]

Sam Houston went undefeated last season.... yet how many times did they sell out there stadium?

For arguments sake: But SU paid Stump Mitchell what... 200,000$ a year to lose and SHSU paid Fritz what... 139,000$ to win by his 1.5th year lol and trounce other schools along the way. What does an apple have to do w/ an orange in comparison?

Bad football play doesn't equate to what/who is in the stands, I think. There are still naive followers out who pay the price for a ticket to support a horrific product. Even during PV's 80 game skid, we had some fans (inclusive of self smh) who'd faithfully follow and remain idle to "support the team." Ridiculous.

[BluBengal07]

Rightly or wrongly, the "Classic" games do have a perception of a family reunion type of thing where people are more there to party, hang out and watch the bands than care about a football game. At least that seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

My wife once worked at a women's clothing store near Legion Field in Brimingham. The neighborhood is mostly black. She said their biggest sales week was always the week of the Magic City Classic.

I believe just party/get-together atmosphere is more fitting to your claim than family reunion. A classic or big rivalry game never felt like some family reunion. However, my family reunions are not based on parties and hanging out.

[813Jag]

For arguments sake: But SU paid Stump Mitchell what... 200,000$ a year to lose and SHSU paid Fritz what... 139,000$ to win by his 1.5th year lol and trounce other schools along the way. What does an apple have to do w/ an orange in comparison?

Bad football play doesn't equate to what/who is in the stands, I think. There are still naive followers out who pay the price for a ticket to support a horrific product. Even during PV's 80 game skid, we had some fans (inclusive of self smh) who'd faithfully follow and remain idle to "support the team." Ridiculous.
Stump got that job with the onus to improve the program off the field and win games. He didn't win games so he's gone, I know you're old school enough to know Southern fans don't tolerate foolishness. The way our attendance dropped showed that people were not happy with the product. Our product has a ways to go but, I see positive steps being made.

[813Jag]

Rightly or wrongly, the "Classic" games do have a perception of a family reunion type of thing where people are more there to party, hang out and watch the bands than care about a football game. At least that seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

My wife once worked at a women's clothing store near Legion Field in Brimingham. The neighborhood is mostly black. She said their biggest sales week was always the week of the Magic City Classic.

you also have to take into account that a lot of those classics are designed to bring in people outside of the fanbases of the two teams playing. But there's lots of people that go to any football game for everything but the game. I've witnessed it with my own eyes ( LSU, USF, FSU, NFL, high school) that's not just an HBCU thing

[Panther88]

Stump got that job with the onus to improve the program off the field and win games. He didn't win games so he's gone, I know you're old school enough to know Southern fans don't tolerate foolishness. The way our attendance dropped showed that people were not happy with the product. Our product has a ways to go but, I see positive steps being made.

I was trying to make a point to your boy 813 and you're right. Stump did indeed turn the program around and I do believe that the program is on the edge yet again. However, I don't see that EXACT same type dominant type squad that I'd witnessed during Pete's tenure. Those teams, from top to bottom, front to back, side to side, up and down, around and around, were well coached, well athletic'd, well disciplined, and well academic'd, obviously. I know how rabid the Nation is so it's expected that improvements must occur. The AD you guys have, I'm jealous. :(

[813Jag]

I was trying to make a point to your boy 813 and you're right. Stump did indeed turn the program around and I do believe that the program is on the edge yet again. However, I don't see that EXACT same type dominant type squad that I'd witnessed during Pete's tenure. Those teams, from top to bottom, front to back, side to side, up and down, around and around, were well coached, well athletic'd, well disciplined, and well academic'd, obviously. I know how rabid the Nation is so it's expected that improvements must occur. The AD you guys have, I'm jealous. :(
I don't know if we'll get to that point, we are just starting this journey. Gonna be full of ups and downs.

[Sonic98]

I'm a fan of the SWAC as well but the level of play for both the football teams and the bands is in the toilet. I work with a guy from Grambling that swears the reason the SWAC doesn't do the playoffs is because of racism that prevents any SWAC team from getting a fair shake. His evidence to support the claim is a barn burner playoff game back in the 80's or early 90's between Grambling and SFA. SFA wins (later vacated) so that was proof that the NCAA is racist. He also seems to think that the level of football has not declined- his head is in the sand and it is pretty hard to convince him otherwise. I suspect there are many more like him but have to say it is refreshing to see some SWAC supporters that share my opinion of the conference. How many games must Grambling lose before they wake up and decide to start competing with the other schools in Lousiana that are not the Jags?

I hate to speak ill of my fellow SWAC family, but most GSU people are clueless. They still think they're the Grambling of Robinson's best years. I'll admit there have been a few times in recent years, where they played pretty tough in OOC games, but GSU people are stuck in the past. They think their team is still great and the band still really is "World Famed." That is the one school I generally don't even like the discuss anything dealing with the status of the various schools with.

[Sonic98]

Rightly or wrongly, the "Classic" games do have a perception of a family reunion type of thing where people are more there to party, hang out and watch the bands than care about a football game. At least that seems to be the case with the Magic City Classic.

My wife once worked at a women's clothing store near Legion Field in Brimingham. The neighborhood is mostly black. She said their biggest sales week was always the week of the Magic City Classic.

The Classics are an event. Any city you go to there is going to be one or two events that year where certain businesses really do well. In Memphis the Southern Heritage Classic is one of them. Memphis is May is one of them. Depending on the teams the Liberty Bowl is one of them. That's still not proof that most people are there just for "atmosphere." Plus, if those businesses didn't make extra money, something must be terribly wrong. Certain businesses don't do well the weekend of the FCS Title game?



I really don't know what you're talking about Sonic98, at all. What I know is I, first person SINGULAR, attend(ed) games to witness GOOD football and hopefully witness a victory by the squad I'm pulling for. Nothing else or anyone else matters to me @ that point, including a funky band, frat, soror, et al.

Also, rexreed is right. Looking @ SWAC play today, 10/12/2012 is on par w/ looking @ teams just above the level of D-II in athletic talent. Or, has the trouncing the SWAC took this year OOC still not convinced you and others like you yet? xlolx And don't just say the stupid "but dey wuz FBS SEC schools" bull either. There were FCS losses and one club team loss to a church school in there as well.

What does that have to do with what we're talking about? You have yet to see me contradict a single time your opinion that SWAC football is not as good as the other conferences. I have never disputed that. The point still remains that the Classics and the "atmosphere" is not the reason the teams are not doing well. There is not a culture of not caring about winning. Several of your own non-SWAC posters have admitted to that. Again anyone going to the game who does not care which teams win is either not fully associated with either school or they're school doesn't have any history of winning. From time to time we do go to each other's games when we have an off week or the road game is too far away. Maybe you're just stuck in your own little world, where you think no one thinks differently than you. But if you think going to games for something other than just the game is something specific to the SWAC, you're simply just wrong. I can point to several FBS schools where people going because they just want to have a good time with the family. Some of them are fans of their band as well. There are other reasons i could name. Yes, two SWAC teams did lose pretty bad this season in OOC games, but those two are so bad this season, they'd probably struggle with a decent D2 and D3 school. Who knows how AAMU might have done OOC this year? Or the JSU team from last season, which only played TnSU OOC. Bama State lost to BCU, but I think they could probably win in another game, and they probably would have done better OOC than TxSU did. You obviously don't talk to a lot of people from JSU or Bama State if you think the majority of people think the SWAC is anywhere near as good as it should be.

The point is you and others have correctly pointed out the reason the SWAC lags behind: lack of quality coaches, lack of budget investment, incomplete coaching staff, lower talent pool, not focusing on all positions equally in recruiting. None of that has anything to do with the bands, the Classics, or the "atmosphere. Just because handful or a small percentage of people say they're not there for the game, doesn't mean the speak for the majority of people at the game


For arguments sake: But SU paid Stump Mitchell what... 200,000$ a year to lose and SHSU paid Fritz what... 139,000$ to win by his 1.5th year lol and trounce other schools along the way. What does an apple have to do w/ an orange in comparison?

Bad football play doesn't equate to what/who is in the stands, I think. There are still naive followers out who pay the price for a ticket to support a horrific product. Even during PV's 80 game skid, we had some fans (inclusive of self smh) who'd faithfully follow and remain idle to "support the team." Ridiculous.

That's called being a fan, plus what else is there for people to do at PV? Alcorn, Valley, UAPB, and PV are all in places where there is not much to do when there is no game on Saturday. Plus, that mentality is the reason why some cities only have a particular college sports team in their area. I see people from a lot of cities complaining because they get looked over for a NFL, NBA, or MLB team whenever the leagues talk of expansion or a team is looking to move. The reason they get looked over is because their city is known to be one with fair weather fans. People want to setup a team in a city they think will stick with the team during good times and bad. And people were going to games during PV's skid, but let's not act like they were exactly leading FCS in attendance. They got people but it wasn't much. Even JSU who is often in the top 10 in FCS and has lead FCS in attendance many times saw a huge drop in numbers during periods where our record hasn't been great. We don't even have to have a losing season. If all we have is an average record attendance drops, so that is proof that the idea that winning and losing doesn't matter for some SWAC schools is not true. You talk about people not caring who wins the game. Do you really think that if a team in your conference had a losing streak like PV's the people going to the game would care as much who won? People who don't care follow a team that is used to losing anyway.



Stump got that job with the onus to improve the program off the field and win games. He didn't win games so he's gone, I know you're old school enough to know Southern fans don't tolerate foolishness. The way our attendance dropped showed that people were not happy with the product. Our product has a ways to go but, I see positive steps being made.

It's basically the same for us. We've given Comegy raises to make is salary competitive or better than some FCS schools out there, and he still doesn't have a great record against
winning teams or teams outside the SWAC. He lost to Delta State for pete Sake. He almost lost to Valley and some lower level teams have given him a run for his money. Alumni have been calling for his head. It's not fans not caring about winning. It's the people running the show who have no clue at some schools.

you also have to take into account that a lot of those classics are designed to bring in people outside of the fanbases of the two teams playing. But there's lots of people that go to any football game for everything but the game. I've witnessed it with my own eyes ( LSU, USF, FSU, NFL, high school) that's not just an HBCU thing

That's the point I was trying to make. It's the same at Bowl Games and some other FBS games. Alumni, students, family members, and future students do care who wins those games.

[Sonic98]

I really don't know what you're talking about Sonic98, at all. What I know is I, first person SINGULAR, attend(ed) games to witness GOOD football and hopefully witness a victory by the squad I'm pulling for. Nothing else or anyone else matters to me @ that point, including a funky band, frat, soror, et al.

Also, rexreed is right. Looking @ SWAC play today, 10/12/2012 is on par w/ looking @ teams just above the level of D-II in athletic talent. Or, has the trouncing the SWAC took this year OOC still not convinced you and others like you yet? xlolx And don't just say the stupid "but dey wuz FBS SEC schools" bull either. There were FCS losses and one club team loss to a church school in there as well.



The Classics are an event. Any city you go to there is going to be one or two events that year where certain businesses really do well. In Memphis the Southern Heritage Classic is one of them. Memphis is May is one of them. Depending on the teams the Liberty Bowl is one of them. That's still not proof that most people are there just for "atmosphere." Plus, if those businesses didn't make extra money, something must be terribly wrong. Certain businesses don't do well the weekend of the FCS Title game?




What does that have to do with what we're talking about? You have yet to see me contradict a single time your opinion that SWAC football is not as good as the other conferences. I have never disputed that. The point still remains that the Classics and the "atmosphere" is not the reason the teams are not doing well. There is not a culture of not caring about winning. Several of your own non-SWAC posters have admitted to that. Again anyone going to the game who does not care which teams win is either not fully associated with either school or they're school doesn't have any history of winning. From time to time we do go to each other's games when we have an off week or the road game is too far away. Maybe you're just stuck in your own little world, where you think no one thinks differently than you. But if you think going to games for something other than just the game is something specific to the SWAC, you're simply just wrong. I can point to several FBS schools where people going because they just want to have a good time with the family. Some of them are fans of their band as well. There are other reasons i could name. Yes, two SWAC teams did lose pretty bad this season in OOC games, but those two are so bad this season, they'd probably struggle with a decent D2 and D3 school. Who knows how AAMU might have done OOC this year? Or the JSU team from last season, which only played TnSU OOC. Bama State lost to BCU, but I think they could probably win in another game, and they probably would have done better OOC than TxSU did. You obviously don't talk to a lot of people from JSU or Bama State if you think the majority of people think the SWAC is anywhere near as good as it should be.

The point is you and others have correctly pointed out the reason the SWAC lags behind: lack of quality coaches, lack of budget investment, incomplete coaching staff, lower talent pool, not focusing on all positions equally in recruiting. None of that has anything to do with the bands, the Classics, or the "atmosphere. Just because handful or a small percentage of people say they're not there for the game, doesn't mean the speak for the majority of people at the game



That's called being a fan, plus what else is there for people to do at PV? Alcorn, Valley, UAPB, and PV are all in places where there is not much to do when there is no game on Saturday. Plus, that mentality is the reason why some cities only have a particular college sports team in their area. I see people from a lot of cities complaining because they get looked over for a NFL, NBA, or MLB team whenever the leagues talk of expansion or a team is looking to move. The reason they get looked over is because their city is known to be one with fair weather fans. People want to setup a team in a city they think will stick with the team during good times and bad. And people were going to games during PV's skid, but let's not act like they were exactly leading FCS in attendance. They got people but it wasn't much. Even JSU who is often in the top 10 in FCS and has lead FCS in attendance many times saw a huge drop in numbers during periods where our record hasn't been great. We don't even have to have a losing season. If all we have is an average record attendance drops, so that is proof that the idea that winning and losing doesn't matter for some SWAC schools is not true. You talk about people not caring who wins the game. Do you really think that if a team in your conference had a losing streak like PV's the people going to the game would care as much who won? People who don't care follow a team that is used to losing anyway.




I forgot to add that people are not stupid. They're starting to see what we're not winning outside the conference. That has led to a drop in attendance as well. Fans are not the only ones who see it. It's waking up some people. That's why you see schools like Alcorn, JSU, and Bama State increasing budgets, looking for coaches from outside the HBCU world, increasing salaries, and increasing fundraising efforts.

Plus, what do people want us to do not support our teams? Should we just walked around with our tails tucked between our legs, depressed because we're not on par with other FCS conferences? We "hold it down" for the SWAC no matter what. If that's a crime I'm guilty. I hate the state to JSU football, but I'm still going to go to certain games. I hate SU, but I'm a Southern Fan when they're playing OOC. I might even be tempted to dance to "Do Whatcha Wanna" or "Let Your Mind Be Free" LOL. When JSU played USM there were plenty of non-JSU SWAC Fans there supporting JSU, the same when SU plays FAMU or some FCS opponent. You can fault us for supporting our schools and conference, but why shouldn't we? We spent some of the most important years of our lives at these schools.

[Panther88]

Sonic98, if you knew the level of HS football being played in the state of Texas and the recruiting that occurs here year in and year out, you'd understand my dismay for the current product that PV fields. Andrew Luck and RGIII are not once a 20yr phenoms here. They are here yearly year in and year out. And, it's not just 1 or 2 of them. There's a cajillion of them, literally xlolx. There's a plethora of talent here and for whatever reasoning we're not acquiring it anymore.

[Panther88]

The Classics are an event. Any city you go to there is going to be one or two events that year where certain businesses really do well. In Memphis the Southern Heritage Classic is one of them. Memphis is May is one of them. Depending on the teams the Liberty Bowl is one of them. That's still not proof that most people are there just for "atmosphere." Plus, if those businesses didn't make extra money, something must be terribly wrong. Certain businesses don't do well the weekend of the FCS Title game?




What does that have to do with what we're talking about? You have yet to see me contradict a single time your opinion that SWAC football is not as good as the other conferences. I have never disputed that. The point still remains that the Classics and the "atmosphere" is not the reason the teams are not doing well. There is not a culture of not caring about winning. Several of your own non-SWAC posters have admitted to that. Again anyone going to the game who does not care which teams win is either not fully associated with either school or they're school doesn't have any history of winning. From time to time we do go to each other's games when we have an off week or the road game is too far away. Maybe you're just stuck in your own little world, where you think no one thinks differently than you. But if you think going to games for something other than just the game is something specific to the SWAC, you're simply just wrong. I can point to several FBS schools where people going because they just want to have a good time with the family. Some of them are fans of their band as well. There are other reasons i could name. Yes, two SWAC teams did lose pretty bad this season in OOC games, but those two are so bad this season, they'd probably struggle with a decent D2 and D3 school. Who knows how AAMU might have done OOC this year? Or the JSU team from last season, which only played TnSU OOC. Bama State lost to BCU, but I think they could probably win in another game, and they probably would have done better OOC than TxSU did. You obviously don't talk to a lot of people from JSU or Bama State if you think the majority of people think the SWAC is anywhere near as good as it should be.

The point is you and others have correctly pointed out the reason the SWAC lags behind: lack of quality coaches, lack of budget investment, incomplete coaching staff, lower talent pool, not focusing on all positions equally in recruiting. None of that has anything to do with the bands, the Classics, or the "atmosphere. Just because handful or a small percentage of people say they're not there for the game, doesn't mean the speak for the majority of people at the game



That's called being a fan, plus what else is there for people to do at PV? Alcorn, Valley, UAPB, and PV are all in places where there is not much to do when there is no game on Saturday. Plus, that mentality is the reason why some cities only have a particular college sports team in their area. I see people from a lot of cities complaining because they get looked over for a NFL, NBA, or MLB team whenever the leagues talk of expansion or a team is looking to move. The reason they get looked over is because their city is known to be one with fair weather fans. People want to setup a team in a city they think will stick with the team during good times and bad. And people were going to games during PV's skid, but let's not act like they were exactly leading FCS in attendance. They got people but it wasn't much. Even JSU who is often in the top 10 in FCS and has lead FCS in attendance many times saw a huge drop in numbers during periods where our record hasn't been great. We don't even have to have a losing season. If all we have is an average record attendance drops, so that is proof that the idea that winning and losing doesn't matter for some SWAC schools is not true. You talk about people not caring who wins the game. Do you really think that if a team in your conference had a losing streak like PV's the people going to the game would care as much who won? People who don't care follow a team that is used to losing anyway.




It's basically the same for us. We've given Comegy raises to make is salary competitive or better than some FCS schools out there, and he still doesn't have a great record against
winning teams or teams outside the SWAC. He lost to Delta State for pete Sake. He almost lost to Valley and some lower level teams have given him a run for his money. Alumni have been calling for his head. It's not fans not caring about winning. It's the people running the show who have no clue at some schools.


That's the point I was trying to make. It's the same at Bowl Games and some other FBS games. Alumni, students, family members, and future students do care who wins those games.

Some of your words have merit but when you're situated in a competitive environment, city, state like Texas winning is all that matters. Period. If you actually LIVED here, grew up HERE, educated HERE, you'd understand. But if you "visit(ed)" 10-11 times in your whole life, your opinion really has nil merit and nil weight. To the south we have longhorns and aggies. To the north we have cowboys and sooners. All w/in a 3-4hr drive one way or the other. And that's just THOSE FBS schools. Working w/ these ppl and witnessing their successes makes one salivate for betterment. Funny, it's ut-ou weekend lol and they're all here right now, this very moment. :)

Also, PV is a 30min drive from Houston via a major frwy system - not the 4 lane country road it once was. So, there's plenty to do "there." lol It's not the only horse in a 10 buggy town like Jackson lol. The entertainment $$$ is always being sought after here and there are eons of choices.

[Sonic98]

Some of your words have merit but when you're situated in a competitive environment, city, state like Texas winning is all that matters. Period. If you actually LIVED here, grew up HERE, educated HERE, you'd understand. But if you "visit(ed)" 10-11 times in your whole life, your opinion really has nil merit and nil weight. To the south we have longhorns and aggies. To the north we have cowboys and sooners. All w/in a 3-4hr drive one way or the other. And that's just THOSE FBS schools. Working w/ these ppl and witnessing their successes makes one salivate for betterment. Funny, it's ut-ou weekend lol and they're all here right now, this very moment. :)

Also, PV is a 30min drive from Houston via a major frwy system - not the 4 lane country road it once was. So, there's plenty to do "there." lol It's not the only horse in a 10 buggy town like Jackson lol. The entertainment $$$ is always being sought after here and there are eons of choices.

And I know countless college students town aren't leaving town even 30 minutes down the road. Some people not going to a road game, even when the other school is an hour away. Some of these students don't even live far from their home city and don't leave for the weekend. Think about even in your own life, how often do you go to the city or town that's say 45 minutes away unless there is something you really want to or have to go do. And I'm sure depending on the weekend that 30 minutes can get a little longer at times.

[Sonic98]

Sonic98, if you knew the level of HS football being played in the state of Texas and the recruiting that occurs here year in and year out, you'd understand my dismay for the current product that PV fields. Andrew Luck and RGIII are not once a 20yr phenoms here. They are here yearly year in and year out. And, it's not just 1 or 2 of them. There's a cajillion of them, literally xlolx. There's a plethora of talent here and for whatever reasoning we're not acquiring it anymore.

PV is just one school. Plus, they have a lot of in-state competition not to mention all the people outside of Texas wanting to pluck the state for talent. And I know the level of football played in Texas, but only two of the schools in the conference are in Texas. What applies to PV and TxSU doesn't apply to everyone else. You can't compare PV to other schools because for a long time PV just did things differently than everyone else. Didn't they have a period time they weren't even giving full scholarships to football players? Maybe I heard wrong. But it just underscores the point I'm trying to make. The teams that can't get talent or the teams where people may not care if they win, are teams like PV, who lost for a long time and are only have recent success if any at all. Anyone who thinks that JSU, SU, and GSU fans don't care about winning, just is incorrect. Now if you're talking about Valley, Alcorn, or UAPB then you're talking. Outside of the Mcnair or Rice years, when can those schools go back and reminisce about the teams they had? You don't have to be from Texas to want to win or be a rabid football fan. And if winning means that much, why even attend a school that doesn't have a winning tradition?