Why is there a dearth of FCS-level football in much of the Midwest???

[Sader87]

It's never really made sense to me.

There is not 1 FCS program in Michigan, Minnesota or Wisconsin, only a couple in Ohio and Iowa, 3 in Indiana etc. etc.

Trivia: Name the 13 states that don't have any FCS programs.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

To be far there are not any FBS programs in Minnesota, Indiana either.....................

[citdog]

gotta be east coast bias




or bush

[DFW HOYA]

It's never really made sense to me. There is not 1 FCS program in Michigan, Minnesota or Wisconsin, only a couple in Ohio and Iowa, 3 in Indiana etc. etc. Trivia: Name the 13 states that don't have any FCS programs.

Just a guess, but here are six: New Mexico, Oklahoma, Hawaii, Alaska, Vermont, West Virginia.

The short answer is that the second tier state schools have a Division II tradition and that there are not any good options in D-I from a conference standpoint. This is especially true in Michigan and among the PSAC schools.

[dbackjon]

It's never really made sense to me.

There is not 1 FCS program in Michigan, Minnesota or Wisconsin, only a couple in Ohio and Iowa, 3 in Indiana etc. etc.

Trivia: Name the 13 states that don't have any FCS programs.

Michigan: Schools that should be FCS, like EMU, GVSU etc are either wanting to pretend to be big boys, or like dominating D2
Minnesota: U of M keeps the other schools in D2
Wisconsin: Similar - three DI schools that could have FCS programs have no football at all

[dbackjon]

States without FCS:

Alaska
Hawaii
New Mexico
Oklahoma
Kansas
Nebraska
Wyoming
Nevada
Vermont
Michigan
West Virginia
Minnesota
Wisconsin

[Sader87]

Nicely done....dbackjon

I figured as much...particularly with the MAC schools in Ohio and Michigan. Just seems like there is an untapped potential for schools in that region to compete at the FCS level.

[Twentysix]

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't even have 4 year universities. They are all 2 years and the U of Wyo, which is a great design for a small population state imo.

[WataugaDave]

In the midwest, football is huge. Much bigger than basketball.

It also has no shortage of small liberal arts colleges who, if they even play football, could never get big enough to advance past D-II.

I do agree that the Directional Michigan Us don't belong in the FBS.

[MplsBison]

It's never really made sense to me.

There is not 1 FCS program in Michigan, Minnesota or Wisconsin, only a couple in Ohio and Iowa, 3 in Indiana etc. etc.

Trivia: Name the 13 states that don't have any FCS programs.

Because I-AA football is the biggest money loser in college athletics?

You're paying to be a DI school and have DI talent and coaches without getting any national recognition for being DI (unless you win the national championship, and very minor at that).

[MplsBison]

In the midwest, football is huge. Much bigger than basketball.

It also has no shortage of small liberal arts colleges who, if they even play football, could never get big enough to advance past D-II.

I do agree that the Directional Michigan Us don't belong in the FBS.

Of course they belong. They all fund 85 scholarships.

Very odd comment.

[MSUBobcat]

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't even have 4 year universities. They are all 2 years and the U of Wyo, which is a great design for a small population state imo.

This is true, and IMO, greatly explains why a large majority of people from that state that I have interacted with seem to have limited mental capacities. xwhistlex

[MplsBison]

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't even have 4 year universities. They are all 2 years and the U of Wyo, which is a great design for a small population state imo.

Agreed. ND, SD and MT should all have had the same model.

[Squealofthepig]

States without FCS:

Alaska
Hawaii
New Mexico
Oklahoma
Kansas
Nebraska
Wyoming
Nevada
Vermont
Michigan
West Virginia
Minnesota
Wisconsin

Quick hasty visualization:
16835

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

This is true, and IMO, greatly explains why a large majority of people from that state that have balanced their budget and are in the black. xwhistlex
FIFY

[ST_Lawson]

To be far there are not any FBS programs in Minnesota, Indiana either.....................

Yes...indeed...I see what you did there.

Although you may be forgetting about Notre Dame.

[BisonFan02]

Yes...indeed...I see what you did there.

Although you may be forgetting about Notre Dame.

I was waiting for someone to say something....although there are many years you could argue the product they put on the field isn't up to par....can't argue the program/support though.

[BisonBacker]

As far as I know Wyoming doesn't even have 4 year universities. They are all 2 years and the U of Wyo, which is a great design for a small population state imo.

North Dakota is so Fugged up in that regard its not even funny.

[Franks Tanks]

Several schools should and would move up, but state politics seem to get in the way. Wisconsin-Whitewater has like 13k students and has played in roughly 17 staight D-III championship games. They would be a great fit. In Michigan Grand Valley is a no brainer and Wayne St. and its 30k students may work as well. Minnesota has schools like St. Cloud state which could work.

[MplsBison]

Yes...indeed...I see what you did there.

Although you may be forgetting about Notre Dame.

I don't think he knows that Notre Dame and Purdue are in Indiana.

[MplsBison]

Several schools should and would move up, but state politics seem to get in the way. Wisconsin-Whitewater has like 13k students and has played in roughly 17 staight D-III championship games. They would be a great fit. In Michigan Grand Valley is a no brainer and Wayne St. and its 30k students may work as well. Minnesota has schools like St. Cloud state which could work.

I'm ok with the MIAC being DIII. They're all small private schools so they should do as they please. Although St Thomas I could see moving up on their own. They would be more successful than Concordia St Paul.

The WIAC, on the other hand - those are all public schools and a lot of them have pretty decent sized enrollments. Pure bull____ that they're allowed to stay in DIII!!!!! Force their butts up to DII!!!!


Of the Northern Sun schools, Duluth, Mankato and St Cloud all have reasonable cases for moving up to DI (enrollment and nearby population), but I think it would have to be with non-scholarship football or dropping football, like UN-Omaha. They all have DI hockey, very expensive.

[Sycamore51]

In the midwest, football is huge. Much bigger than basketball.

It also has no shortage of small liberal arts colleges who, if they even play football, could never get big enough to advance past D-II.

I do agree that the Directional Michigan Us don't belong in the FBS.

WHAT?!?!?! Basketball is king in Indiana and football is just played to kill time until basketball season starts. Illinois is a huge basketball state, especially the Chicago area where the population is. Kentucky is stuck somewhere between Midwest and Midsouth, but it is all basketball as well.

[MplsBison]

WHAT?!?!?! Basketball is king in Indiana and football is just played to kill time until basketball season starts. Illinois is a huge basketball state, especially the Chicago area where the population is. Kentucky is stuck somewhere between Midwest and Midsouth, but it is all basketball as well.

Would not consider Louisville to be a midwest city but would consider Cincinnati to be midwest.

[344Johnson]

WHAT?!?!?! Basketball is king in Indiana and football is just played to kill time until basketball season starts. Illinois is a huge basketball state, especially the Chicago area where the population is. Kentucky is stuck somewhere between Midwest and Midsouth, but it is all basketball as well.


Unless your in South Bend!

Also, midwest means different things to different people. For me, North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma are not in the Midwest. I use the Great Plains to categorize those states. the ones east, Midwest. Don't ask why, because I don't really know. Just how I tend to do things.

[Professor Chaos]

Several schools should and would move up, but state politics seem to get in the way. Wisconsin-Whitewater has like 13k students and has played in roughly 17 staight D-III championship games. They would be a great fit. In Michigan Grand Valley is a no brainer and Wayne St. and its 30k students may work as well. Minnesota has schools like St. Cloud state which could work.
Nah, if St Cloud St had a D1 football team than the U of M Twin Cities would want one too.

[LakesBison]

NDSU should be FBS. period

[Sader87]

NDSU should be FBS. period

I don't think there's going to be an "FBS" designation in another 5-10 years.....they'll be a 64 school or so "Super" division, the other schools of the FBS now will be lumped in with the rest of the FCS schools for a new sort of D1 designation.

[frozennorth]

Unless your in South Bend!

Also, midwest means different things to different people. For me, North and South Dakota, Nebraska, Kansas, Oklahoma are not in the Midwest. I use the Great Plains to categorize those states. the ones east, Midwest. Don't ask why, because I don't really know. Just how I tend to do things.
the midwest ends just west of I-29, and north of kansas city

[Twentysix]

the midwest ends just west of I-29, and north of kansas city

Depends who what and when you are talking about.

For most modern discussions I agree with you.

http://www.theposselist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/midwest-map.jpg

^ Is a pretty good map, however I would add the western 3/4ths of each western edge state to the great plains/west.

[mmiller_34]

the midwest ends just west of I-29, and north of kansas city

I think you mean south.

[mmiller_34]

My midwest:

16839

There is a big difference between the geographies of Brookings and Pierre.

[LakesBison]

Michigan and Ohio arent midwest to me.

[Sader87]

Everything west of the Hudson River is the Midwest to most New Englanders.

[Redhawk2010]

Everything west of the Hudson River is the Midwest to most New Englanders.

HAHA. That's like anything south of I-80 is "southern Illinois" for most Chicago people...

[344Johnson]

Depends who what and when you are talking about.

For most modern discussions I agree with you.

http://www.theposselist.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/midwest-map.jpg

^ Is a pretty good map, however I would add the western 3/4ths of each western edge state to the great plains/west.



I have a hard time counting Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, or Missouri in the same category as me! Maybe just my small-time North Dakota coming out.

[Catbooster]

It's anything east of Billings...through Ohio. Billings is way out East :)

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The answer to the thread question is $$$MONEY$$$.

[penguinpower]

Pennsylvania is considered East and Ohio is considered the beginning of the Midwest.

In Ohio most people could care less about basketball. Football is THE sport. Michigan is not really a football state, they steal Ohio kids for thier teams. Michigan college teams are usually loaded with Ohio kids. Michigan plays this sport called hockey and it is stupid becuase you can't even see the ball and it looks like another stupid sport called soccer. Ohio HS football is similar to Texas HS football. It is a big deal and it is not uncommon to have games where there are 17-20 k fans depending on who is matched up. Indiana only cares about basketball. Although Notre Dame is located in Indiana they are another big recruiter of Ohio kids but they also take Illinois kids. Woody Hayes said he was the best recruiter for ND becuase if a kid didn't want to play for him he would tell them to go to ND becuase he didn't want Michigan to get the Ohio kid. IIllinois is is very balanced as far as football and basketball. I think both sports are equally important in Illinois. I couldn't tell you about any other states except that it appears that the East Coast is not as focused on football the same as other Midwest states. It appears that on the East coast they like Football, Basketball, Baseball, Lacrosse and Hockey.

In Ohio you can like more than your home team. For instance you can like the Penguins and then go and root for the Buckeyes and there is nothing wrong with that it is actually common. A lot of coaching tradition in Ohio as well. for instance Bo Pelini and Bob Stoops are both from Y-town and played football at the same HS. Also from the aresa is Mark Mangino, Urban Myer, Les Miles, and Jim Tressel, Frank Solich, and many others.


OHIO MAKES COACHES:

Ohio is a state in a deep recession, laid low by the decline of manufacturing. And yet, the Buckeye state is to college football coaching what Silicon Valley is to technology: It's where the brightest minds come from.

The Cradle of Coaches
View Interactive

See an interactive map of coaches with an Ohio connection
..Both Florida's Urban Meyer and Oklahoma's Bob Stoops, who will face off in the national-championship game on Jan. 8, grew up in Ohio. Recent title-winners Jim Tressel of Ohio State and Les Miles of LSU are native Ohioans, as are two of the college game's rising stars, Nebraska's Bo Pelini and Missouri's Gary Pinkel. The list of coaches with Ohio ties includes Alabama's Nick Saban, who played at Kent State and coached at Toledo, and USC's Pete Carroll, who was an Ohio State assistant in 1979.

Less than 4% of the country's population lives in Ohio, but 15% of college football's major-conference head coaches were born there -- the most for any state. And this volume is more than matched by quality: 14 of the last 18 teams that have made it to the national title game have had head coaches with Ohio connections.

Four decades ago, when Ohio State's Woody Hayes, Michigan's Bo Schembechler and Notre Dame's Ara Parseghian prowled the college sidelines -- and fellow Ohioans Don Shula and Chuck Noll ruled the NFL -- Ohio's coaching supremacy was a foregone conclusion. But at a time when the best football is generally played in the South -- teams from the Southeastern Conference have won the last two national titles -- the rise of a new generation of Ohio coaches belies the popular perception that Midwestern football is slow, staid and increasingly obsolete.

State of Greats
Ohio natives Bob Stoops of Oklahoma, top, and Urban Meyer of Florida, bottom, will meet to decide the national title on Jan. 8.

The state's passion for football is fed by a history of tough, lunchbucket labor in mining, manufacturing and steelmaking. Ohio has one of the highest percentages of native-born residents of any state, which helps its interest in football regenerate itself through generations. Ohio is the seventh-largest state but has the third-most high school football players.

But what really separates Ohio from other states is an uncommonly high number of decent college football programs. Ohio's 36 NCAA football schools ranks second in the nation overall and includes eight schools that play in the NCAA's elite Football Bowl Subdivision (Pennsylvania, which has more programs overall, has only three in the FBS). These schools, which range from Ohio State in the Big Ten to Bowling Green, Toledo and Ohio University of the Ohio-centric Mid-American Conference, give Ohio kids more opportunities to play college football and, if inclined, to join a coaching staff.

Ohio schools have long been known as proving grounds for young coaches. Miami University in Oxford, Ohio, which has been called the "Cradle of Coaches" (Messrs. Hayes, Parseghian and Schembechler all coached there), is where Kevin Wilson, Oklahoma's heralded offensive coordinator, got his first job running a major-college offense. Mr. Saban of Alabama got his first head-coaching gig at Toledo in 1990 and Bowling Green, just 20 miles away, gave Mr. Meyer, coach of the No. 1-ranked Florida Gators, his first team to command in 2001.

Although all of Ohio is a hotbed for football, the industrial Northeast is where the majority of coaches come from. Mr. Meyer is from Ashtabula, near the Pennsylvania border. Mr. Stoops and his brothers Mike, Mark and Ron -- all of whom are in coaching -- are from Youngstown, an hour south of Cleveland (Nebraska's Mr. Pelini, also from Youngstown, was a Stoops family friend growing up). LSU's Mr. Miles and Ohio State's Mr. Tressel, last year's title-game coaches, hail from Elyria and Berea, respectively, two towns along Lake Erie.

For decades, northeastern Ohio was a key part of the Midwestern manufacturing corridor. Youngstown was a major steelmaking hub and Elyria invented the padded bicycle seat. Berea's claim to fame was grindstones. Today, the state's foreclosure rate is the nation's seventh-highest and its biggest private-sector employer is Wal-Mart. Some say these changes have actually strengthened the connection to football and its ideals of hard work and teamwork.

"People cling to football as a place where those values still matter," says Christopher Butler, a Minnesota-Morris English professor and author of a book about Ohio high school football.

Ohio was one of the first parts of the country to become obsessed with college football. Although the rules of the modern game were largely fashioned by Walter Camp of Yale and other Easterners in the late 19th century, the game migrated west, due in part to legendary Olympian Jim Thorpe who played professionally in Canton, Ohio -- the birthplace of what is now the National Football League.

Ohio first became the leading source for football strategy in the 1940s and 1950s with the successes of Paul Brown (coach of the NFL's Cleveland Browns) and Woody Hayes at Ohio State. The latter was renowned for his ferocity, the former for his obsession with detail. "On the first night of training camp, he would dictate -- and you'd have to write down long-hand -- the fundamentals of football: how to run, how to catch, how to carry the ball," says Mr. Shula, the Hall-of-Fame Miami Dolphins coach who played for Mr. Brown in the early 1950s. "He did that every year. Otto Graham [Cleveland's star quarterback] had been there 10 years and he's in there doing it with the rookies."

Messrs. Brown and Hayes's ideals have been aped by generations of Ohioans, first by their former players and assistant coaches and later by their descendants. Mr. Meyer was heavily influenced by the physical brand of play favored by Mr. Hayes and former Ohio State coach Earle Bruce, a Hayes disciple whose staff Mr. Meyer served on in the 1980s.

The Stoops brothers had their role model at the kitchen table. All four played and later coached defense, like their father, the longtime defensive coordinator at Youngstown Cardinal Mooney High School. "He'd put the film projector on the kitchen table and watch game tape on the fridge," says Ron Stoops Jr., Bob's brother and a coach himself now at Mooney. "It didn't go unnoticed."

Strategically, the Ohio coaches of today have broken from their forefathers' conservative, three-yards-and-a-cloud-of-dust past. Both Mr. Meyer and Mr. Stoops were sharp enough to learn from a seminal event in recent college-football history: Northwestern's 54-51 victory over Michigan in 2000, a game the less-skilled Wildcats won with an innovative "spread" offense that forced Michigan to defend the entire field.

Mr. Meyer, who took over the next season at Bowling Green, sent staffers to Northwestern, among other places, to study this system. Mr. Stoops, whose Oklahoma Sooners were already using a version of the spread but were struggling with their running game, hired Mr. Wilson from Northwestern in 2001. Today, both Oklahoma and Florida run spread offenses. Oklahoma, which broke the major-college record for points this season, ranks first nationally in scoring while Florida is third.

Some coaches say the quality of football recruits in Ohio has slipped and the state's tough economic straits could be taking a toll in its football infrastructure. But there's little doubt that the one common thread between the top Buckeye-state coaches is still intact: a traditional adherence to toughness and discipline that will be on display in Miami during next week's title game. "It's a blue-collar environment," says recently retired Purdue coach Joe Tiller, a Toledo native. "They like rough stuff."

At his first practice as Florida coach in 2005, Mr. Meyer yelled to a player, "I don't even know who you are, but if you run like that again you're off the team." Mr. Stoops believes in the primacy of repetition and execution, just like Messrs. Hayes and Schembechler before him. "Sometimes overall schemes are overrated," he says. "It's how you execute them."

[fc97]

I'm ok with the MIAC being DIII. They're all small private schools so they should do as they please. Although St Thomas I could see moving up on their own. They would be more successful than Concordia St Paul.

The WIAC, on the other hand - those are all public schools and a lot of them have pretty decent sized enrollments. Pure bull____ that they're allowed to stay in DIII!!!!! Force their butts up to DII!!!!


Of the Northern Sun schools, Duluth, Mankato and St Cloud all have reasonable cases for moving up to DI (enrollment and nearby population), but I think it would have to be with non-scholarship football or dropping football, like UN-Omaha. They all have DI hockey, very expensive.

see, this is another flat out ignorant comment by you. why do you have such disdain for private schools? private schools and public schools alike can do as they see fit. public schools are not just run by government boards, they have board of trustees that oversee the health and spending of the school. the size of the nearby population also has nothing to do with being d-iii or d-ii.

why cant you understand that enrollment numbers have nothing to do with athletics funding? and further, why cant you understand that there are a lot of pluses to being d-iii? being d-iii or d-ii isn't just about funding, its about compliance, scholarship measuring, more title ix implications and so on. in other words, it costs more, forces you to employ more and all for no more exposure than you get in d-iii.

d-i hockey is not all that expensive. if you look at simple reporting numbers, d-i hockey costs as much as d-i baseball on average. if you look at simple examples like, findlay ohio, you can see costs of all 5 major sports side by side.

so roughly
1) population of the surrounding areas are reason to be in a higher division
2) cost of d-i hockey is a reason to be in a higher division
3) size of the school is reason to be in a higher division
4) being a public school and at certain enrollment number in your head is reason to be in a higher division
5) being private is a reason be in a division lower the most
6) schools shouldnt be allowed to be d-iii

none of those are reasons at all to move out of a division.

what does matter:
1) MONEY
2) title ix

those are the only two things. in d-iii, you can have schools offering 20-23 sports all with less of an investment.

[MSUBear42]

In the midwest, football is huge. Much bigger than basketball.

It also has no shortage of small liberal arts colleges who, if they even play football, could never get big enough to advance past D-II.

I do agree that the Directional Michigan Us don't belong in the FBS.

Hit this on the head. While Missouri has only 2, we are loaded with D2 schools in this area.

[MplsBison]

I have a hard time counting Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, or Missouri in the same category as me! Maybe just my small-time North Dakota coming out.

How about anything west and north of the Missouri river?

[MplsBison]

see, this is another flat out ignorant comment by you. why do you have such disdain for private schools? private schools and public schools alike can do as they see fit. public schools are not just run by government boards, they have board of trustees that oversee the health and spending of the school. the size of the nearby population also has nothing to do with being d-iii or d-ii.

why cant you understand that enrollment numbers have nothing to do with athletics funding? and further, why cant you understand that there are a lot of pluses to being d-iii? being d-iii or d-ii isn't just about funding, its about compliance, scholarship measuring, more title ix implications and so on. in other words, it costs more, forces you to employ more and all for no more exposure than you get in d-iii.

d-i hockey is not all that expensive. if you look at simple reporting numbers, d-i hockey costs as much as d-i baseball on average. if you look at simple examples like, findlay ohio, you can see costs of all 5 major sports side by side.

so roughly
1) population of the surrounding areas are reason to be in a higher division
2) cost of d-i hockey is a reason to be in a higher division
3) size of the school is reason to be in a higher division
4) being a public school and at certain enrollment number in your head is reason to be in a higher division
5) being private is a reason be in a division lower the most
6) schools shouldnt be allowed to be d-iii

none of those are reasons at all to move out of a division.

what does matter:
1) MONEY
2) title ix

those are the only two things. in d-iii, you can have schools offering 20-23 sports all with less of an investment.

The primary purpose of a state public university is to offer opportunities to the state's high school graduates in higher education. All WIAC schools fit this by definition.

Staying in DIII means they do not offer athletic scholarships and since they're not private schools they have very small endowments (and therefore not much institutional aid to offer, unlike the MIAC schools).


They should be forced to offer scholarships and therefore that's why they should be at least DII**.


DI hockey is extremely expensive on a per player basis. Hockey in general is a very expensive sport. You wouldn't know that being from the south.

EDIT** Meant to say DII not DI above.

[ccd494]

They should be forced to offer scholarships and therefore that's why they should be DI.

It's amazing that the serious brain injury you obviously suffered as a small child still allows you to operate a computer.

[PantherRob82]

In Ohio you can like more than your home team. For instance you can like the Penguins and then go and root for the Buckeyes and there is nothing wrong with that it is actually common.

What a old of BS. I guess if that makes you guys feel better.

I've been to our last three games in Youngstown, and sometimes there may be more Buckeye gear than Penguin gear. The last two times there may have been more people watching the Buckeye game at sports bars a few blocks from the stadium than in the stands for our game. Even in 2006 with a good crowd, we couldn't believe the amount of Buckeye stuff and how many people were talking more about the Buckeyes than the game they were watching. (and all this is considering that you guys both have white, red, black, and grey shirts, and their could be even more OSU gear than we even noticed.

You can like more than your home team anywhere. I cheer for a couple teams outside of UNI, but that is not comparable to the Buckeye fans in Youngstown. xthumbsupx

[ST_Lawson]

In Ohio you can like more than your home team. For instance you can like the Penguins and then go and root for the Buckeyes and there is nothing wrong with that it is actually common.


I'd say it's mostly the same in Illinois. Like, "my team" is Western, but outside of the few times when we play against them, I also root for U of Illinois (where my sister-in-law is a flag in the marching band) and Northern Illinois (where many friends of mine have gone to school). I don't wear much U of I or Northern IL gear around (and I'd never wear anything that wasn't purple and gold to a Western football game), since I actually live in Macomb, but I don't see anything wrong with rooting for them. I'm actually going to a U of I game later this season.

[Jazzman1522]

What a old of BS. I guess if that makes you guys feel better.

I've been to our last three games in Youngstown, and sometimes there may be more Buckeye gear than Penguin gear. The last two times there may have been more people watching the Buckeye game at sports bars a few blocks from the stadium than in the stands for our game. Even in 2006 with a good crowd, we couldn't believe the amount of Buckeye stuff and how many people were talking more about the Buckeyes than the game they were watching. (and all this is considering that you guys both have white, red, black, and grey shirts, and their could be even more OSU gear than we even noticed.

You can like more than your home team anywhere. I cheer for a couple teams outside of UNI, but that is not comparable to the Buckeye fans in Youngstown. xthumbsupx

I grew up in Ohio and then went to college in Kentucky. I can't escape this phenomenon. What you've described is common all over the state. I had a lot of friends at Ohio University, which is an FBS school and they've said there's typically more Ohio State gear on campus than OU. And don't get me started on how frustrating it was to be at EKU and only about 30 minutes from the University of Kentucky.

Ironically, growing up I was a huge Ohio State football fan. Now, I want almost nothing to do with it, and I'm not entirely sure why. I think it's because I don't care for other Ohio State fans but I can't quite place my finger on it. I think it's that they're no fun. We all take our teams seriously, but even when I was a big OSU fan, a lot of the other ones I knew gave off this vibe that made me think I'd be safer just not talking to them about it.

[penguinpower]

What a old of BS. I guess if that makes you guys feel better.

I've been to our last three games in Youngstown, and sometimes there may be more Buckeye gear than Penguin gear. The last two times there may have been more people watching the Buckeye game at sports bars a few blocks from the stadium than in the stands for our game. Even in 2006 with a good crowd, we couldn't believe the amount of Buckeye stuff and how many people were talking more about the Buckeyes than the game they were watching. (and all this is considering that you guys both have white, red, black, and grey shirts, and their could be even more OSU gear than we even noticed.

You can like more than your home team anywhere. I cheer for a couple teams outside of UNI, but that is not comparable to the Buckeye fans in Youngstown. xthumbsupx



Not BS. YSU used to schedule the games so that people could go to the YSU game and still catcht he Buckeyes. That has changed in the last ten years, but when Tressel was at YSU that is exactly what happened. Tressel had a lot to do with it too, as he was a big Oho State fan himself.

[MplsBison]

It's amazing that the serious brain injury you obviously suffered as a small child still allows you to operate a computer.

Meant to say DII.

There's no way the WIAC schools can justify their existence as DIII schools. If you knew anything about it, you'd agree with me.

[Twentysix]

I have a hard time counting Michigan, Ohio, Indiana, or Missouri in the same category as me! Maybe just my small-time North Dakota coming out.

The term midwest has to do with the way the US was settled. For at one point Ohio was the west. It became the middle west as time progressed and a true west developed leaving a middle area.

I subscribe to the terms East, northeast, South(Slave states sans missouri), midwest(non slave states outside the original 13 sans california oregon and maine [people from north and south dakota like to proclaim themselves part of the midwest, sometimes these states are included sometimes they are not] ), great plains, West, southwest, and pacific northwest.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/colonies.gif

Keep the original 13 in mind when pondering the midwest and it will probably change your view.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/US_SlaveFree1861.gif

This map illustrates why N and S Dakota and nebraska are usually not included in the midwest.

[fc97]

The primary purpose of a state public university is to offer opportunities to the state's high school graduates in higher education. All WIAC schools fit this by definition.

Staying in DIII means they do not offer athletic scholarships and since they're not private schools they have very small endowments (and therefore not much institutional aid to offer, unlike the MIAC schools).


They should be forced to offer scholarships and therefore that's why they should be at least DII**.


DI hockey is extremely expensive on a per player basis. Hockey in general is a very expensive sport. You wouldn't know that being from the south.

EDIT** Meant to say DII not DI above.

forced to offer scholarships? do you hear yourself? do you understand how funding and title ix work? because the way you post, i dont think you do. forcing to offer athletic scholarships does not guarantee your defined mission of higher education. public education is already subsidized to make it affordable. offering scholarships for athletics not necessarily push higher education. the money has to come form somewhere, if it is going to be provided then use it for general scholarships for academics. these schools know what they are doing and know how to run themselves.

NCAA Figures:
D-I Football - Average $500 per player for equipment @52+ players = $26000
D-I Hockey - Average $500 per player for equipment @28 = $14000
D-I Baseball - Average $420 per player for equipment @ 35 = 14700

you assume i am from the south and dont play hockey, learn before you type

[Twentysix]

forced to offer scholarships? do you hear yourself? do you understand how funding and title ix work? because the way you post, i dont think you do. forcing to offer athletic scholarships does not guarantee your defined mission of higher education. public education is already subsidized to make it affordable. offering scholarships for athletics not necessarily push higher education. the money has to come form somewhere, if it is going to be provided then use it for general scholarships for academics. these schools know what they are doing and know how to run themselves.

NCAA Figures:
D-I Football - Average $500 per player for equipment @52+ players = $26000
D-I Hockey - Average $500 per player for equipment @28 = $14000
D-I Baseball - Average $420 per player for equipment @ 35 = 14700

you assume i am from the south and dont play hockey, learn before you type

500 a player seems way low. I don't pretend to be an expert on hockey but isn't a stick over $200 alone? And multiple sticks would be needed for each player to complete a season correct?

[fc97]

500 a player seems way low. I don't pretend to be an expert on hockey but isn't a stick over $200 alone? And multiple sticks would be needed for each player to complete a season correct?

That was the quote from the NCAA website. A few sticks, but stick heads are replaced. No different than constantly breaking bats in college baseball. And yeah, aluminum bats break all the time. And the number of balls lost.

[UNDColorado]

500 a player seems way low. I don't pretend to be an expert on hockey but isn't a stick over $200 alone? And multiple sticks would be needed for each player to complete a season correct?

A good pair of hockey skates cost $500 alone; which are replaced every year at that level. As for sticks, these days they range from $100 - $200 per.

[Twentysix]

A good pair of hockey skates cost $500 alone; which are replaced every year at that level. As for sticks, these days they range from $100 - $200 per.

It seems you would agree $500 a player is a low estimate. I really don't follow hockey so I couldn't say for sure, I just figured $500 seemed pretty low.

[fc97]

I subscribe to the terms East, northeast, South(Slave states sans missouri), midwest(non slave states outside the original 13 sans california oregon and maine [people from north and south dakota like to proclaim themselves part of the midwest, sometimes these states are included sometimes they are not] ), great plains, West, southwest, and pacific northwest.


one gripe with that, of the 13 colonies, all were slave states. and though northern abolition is taught, but is not entirely focused on, places like missouri, new hampshire and new jersey did not free all slaves until well after 1865 as the emancipation proclamation did not apply to them, while tennessee and north carolina already had movements to abolish slavery well before the war started.

so please on the slave state nonsense.

[Twentysix]

one gripe with that, of the 13 colonies, all were slave states. and though northern abolition is taught, but is not entirely focused on, places like missouri, new hampshire and new jersey did not free all slaves until well after 1865 as the emancipation proclamation did not apply to them, while tennessee and north carolina already had movements to abolish slavery well before the war started.

so please on the slave state nonsense.

You can hate history all you want doesn't change anything. NH and NJ began working towards becoming a non slave state long before the civil war. It was a way of life and a process that took some time to change. You could liken the process to the legal agricultural pay in some states. Even in 2012.

[Vitojr130]

Michigan and Ohio arent midwest to me.

This is probably the only time I can say I fully agree with lakes...

H*ll must be freezing over.

[344Johnson]

The term midwest has to do with the way the US was settled. For at one point Ohio was the west. It became the middle west as time progressed and a true west developed leaving a middle area.

I subscribe to the terms East, northeast, South(Slave states sans missouri), midwest(non slave states outside the original 13 sans california oregon and maine [people from north and south dakota like to proclaim themselves part of the midwest, sometimes these states are included sometimes they are not] ), great plains, West, southwest, and pacific northwest.

http://www.worldatlas.com/webimage/countrys/namerica/usstates/colonies.gif

Keep the original 13 in mind when pondering the midwest and it will probably change your view.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1d/US_SlaveFree1861.gif

This map illustrates why N and S Dakota and nebraska are usually not included in the midwest.

The original 13 stuff doesn't change my view at all. I enjoy history and know these things. According to the U.S. Census Bureau we are in the midwest. Dumb.

[Twentysix]

The original 13 stuff doesn't change my view at all. I enjoy history and know these things. According to the U.S. Census Bureau we are in the midwest. Dumb.

Good thing the US Census Bureau is not declared omnipotent on all things academic. xsmiley_wix

[UNDColorado]

It seems you would agree $500 a player is a low estimate. I really don't follow hockey so I couldn't say for sure, I just figured $500 seemed pretty low.
Yes, $500 is a very low estimate. Heck, each guy probably goes through 10 - 20 one piece carbon sticks per year, so at $100 per on the low end the costs are probably more like $2,000 / year / player.

[Vitojr130]

Yes, $500 is a very low estimate. Heck, each guy probably goes through 10 - 20 one piece carbon sticks per year, so at $100 per on the low end the costs are probably more like $2,000 / year / player.

And what about travel expenses for the team? Chartering a flight is very, very expense and when you have to do it many times during a season... it all adds up.

[Gil Dobie]

States without FCS:

Alaska
Hawaii
New Mexico
Oklahoma
Kansas
Nebraska
Wyoming
Nevada
Vermont
Michigan
West Virginia
Minnesota
Wisconsin

UNO if the NCC had moved up as a group when NDSU, UNC and SDSU moved up. Now they dropped football when going DI.

[UNDColorado]

And what about travel expenses for the team? Chartering a flight is very, very expense and when you have to do it many times during a season... it all adds up.

I was just looking at equipment costs. I believe they only fly to the Colorado schools, Alaska, and whenever they play ooc games out east at places such as Maine. So this is tough to estimate but I am thinking it is comparable to football which fly everywhere now, so maybe 4 - 6 flights per year? Once again this one is tough to estimate.

[MplsBison]

forced to offer scholarships? do you hear yourself? do you understand how funding and title ix work? because the way you post, i dont think you do. forcing to offer athletic scholarships does not guarantee your defined mission of higher education. public education is already subsidized to make it affordable. offering scholarships for athletics not necessarily push higher education. the money has to come form somewhere, if it is going to be provided then use it for general scholarships for academics. these schools know what they are doing and know how to run themselves.

NCAA Figures:
D-I Football - Average $500 per player for equipment @52+ players = $26000
D-I Hockey - Average $500 per player for equipment @28 = $14000
D-I Baseball - Average $420 per player for equipment @ 35 = 14700

you assume i am from the south and dont play hockey, learn before you type

No one is forcing any of the WIAC schools to have athletics. That is their elective decision.

If they are going to choose to provide athletic opportunities to the state's high school graduates, then they must be forced to provide scholarship opportunities - equally under title IX federal laws, of course, just as every DII school does today with no difficulties - to those student athletes. DIII is for small private colleges. The WIAC schools can easily afford scholarships, they just want to stay in DIII so they can win national titles with unfair advantages in facilities and resources.


Provide a link for your figures so we can figure our why they're so wrong or admit you made them up.

[NDB]

This is true, and IMO, greatly explains why a large majority of people from that state that I have interacted with seem to have limited mental capacities. xwhistlex

Were you able to easily swindle them during a goat trade?

[MTfan4life]

No one is forcing any of the WIAC schools to have athletics. That is their elective decision.

If they are going to choose to provide athletic opportunities to the state's high school graduates, then they must be forced to provide scholarship opportunities - equally under title IX federal laws, of course, just as every DII school does today with no difficulties - to those student athletes. DIII is for small private colleges. The WIAC schools can easily afford scholarships, they just want to stay in DIII so they can win national titles with unfair advantages in facilities and resources.


Provide a link for your figures so we can figure our why they're so wrong or admit you made them up.

Please provide a link for your claim that WIAC schools can afford scholarships for all of their sports. Also provide a link showing that the WIAC schools have better facilities than any other D-III school. Or you can admit you made it up.

[MplsBison]

Please provide a link for your claim that WIAC schools can afford scholarships for all of their sports. Also provide a link showing that the WIAC schools have better facilities than any other D-III school. Or you can admit you made it up.

There is no link to provide. I don't have the time to do all the research that would be needed to fully prove my point, but I know I'm correct.

At a minimum, all one needs to do is count the number of public universities (not colleges) that are participating in DIII vs the total members of that division and then take a look at the average enrollment and budget of those universities in Wisconsin vs. the same averages for the non-public schools in DIII (that make up the vast majority of the division).

I think you'll notice a pretty obvious, stark contrast.


Does that obvious institutional advantage automatically transfer to the athletic department? Not necessarily. But on the other hand no one is forcing those schools to have athletic departments in the first place. They could very well educate Wisconsin's high school graduates without sponsoring varsity athletic teams.

[URMite]

Quick hasty visualization:
16835

That looks like Oregon is added...

[MTfan4life]

There is no link to provide. I don't have the time to do all the research that would be needed to fully prove my point, but I know I'm correct.

At a minimum, all one needs to do is count the number of public universities (not colleges) that are participating in DIII vs the total members of that division and then take a look at the average enrollment and budget of those universities in Wisconsin vs. the same averages for the non-public schools in DIII (that make up the vast majority of the division).

I think you'll notice a pretty obvious, stark contrast.


Does that obvious institutional advantage automatically transfer to the athletic department? Not necessarily. But on the other hand no one is forcing those schools to have athletic departments in the first place. They could very well educate Wisconsin's high school graduates without sponsoring varsity athletic teams.

Who said someone was forcing them to have athletics? They have athletics because it works. 80% of the athletes at WIAC schools are home grown. The absence of athletic scholarships, if nothing else, still improves academic focus. That's the ultimate goal of a university. Why not let the students have a little fun and competition while pursuing degrees at academic institutions in their home state? I'd be willing to bet that the WIAC student athlete graduation rate is much higher than the NSIC. Other than disappointing one man from Minnesota, what are they doing wrong?

[AmsterBison]

Minnesota has an FCS program already - NDSU*. :) - Moreover, all four of the Dakota programs are on the border of Minnesota. The FCS presence in that state is already very strong.

Anyway, it's too bad Nebraska-Omaha and Marquette couldn't have kept their football programs but, as far as I'm concerned, the "midwest" has enough DI football programs. As Bison fans saw in D2 - you don't want the FCS cluttered up with teams who move up and add nothing to league except a clamoring for scholarship reductions and ridiculous playoff systems.

As to the side discussion, I'm from The Great Plains, more specifically the Northern Plains - point is that states and provinces around the 100th parallel have a lot in common. Factoid: Remember Schmidt Beer's slogan - until fairly recently, the Northern Plains were referred to as the "Great Northwest."

* As you may know, the Bison play an occasional home game in Minneapolis.

[MplsBison]

Who said someone was forcing them to have athletics? They have athletics because it works. 80% of the athletes at WIAC schools are home grown. The absence of athletic scholarships, if nothing else, still improves academic focus. That's the ultimate goal of a university. Why not let the students have a little fun and competition while pursuing degrees at academic institutions in their home state? I'd be willing to bet that the WIAC student athlete graduation rate is much higher than the NSIC. Other than disappointing one man from Minnesota, what are they doing wrong?

It goes to the point about costs (not being able to afford scholarships). If they can't afford to be providing some limited scholarships to those 80% Wisconsin home grown athletes, then how can they afford to have the teams in the first place?

Wouldn't they be able to continue educating the students without having any varsity athletics? That would save the most money which could then be put towards academics.


There's no way for you to win the argument, given what they are and what they're doing. I already know I'm right.

[MTfan4life]

It goes to the point about costs (not being able to afford scholarships). If they can't afford to be providing some limited scholarships to those 80% Wisconsin home grown athletes, then how can they afford to have the teams in the first place?

Wouldn't they be able to continue educating the students without having any varsity athletics? That would save the most money which could then be put towards academics.


There's no way for you to win the argument, given what they are and what they're doing. I already know I'm right.

Lol, you're not even making an argument. How could you be right? I know in your fantasy world, everything is wrong and only you are right. So keep on trucking in there.

WIAC student athletes graduate. They obviously are doing something right. That's all that matters. Not to you though.

[henfan]

Because I-AA [sic: FCS] football is the biggest money loser in college athletics?

No, it really isn't, especially when comparing expenses to revenues across the entire subdivision. I'd like to know where you extracted the info from to arrive at that generalization, though I'd suspect its somewhere south of your lumbar.

If FCS FB were such a net drain on schools, more schools would be dropping the sport altogether or reducing scholarships. Schools like NDSU would still be kicking around in D-II if the institution didn't think FCS FB was a more equitable financial investment.

There's more than a dozen and a half NCAA sports that typically run up red ink, most with little possibility for ROI, unlike FCS FB. At NDSU for example, the revenues for the golf, volleyball & soccer programs aren't likely coming within a fraction of covering their expenses with ticket & merchandise sales and donations, unlike Bison FB.

[UAalum72]

The original 13 stuff doesn't change my view at all. I enjoy history and know these things. According to the U.S. Census Bureau we are in the midwest. Dumb.
The 'Midwest' is mainly the states formed from the Northwest Ordinance territories of 1787. But those states are too diverse for 'Midwest' to have any meaning in grouping them together.

Better to go with Joel Garreau's Nine Nations of North America (though the map is 30 years old and the boundaries may need a little adjusting)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4491510177_53bedea796.jpg

[MplsBison]

Lol, you're not even making an argument. How could you be right? I know in your fantasy world, everything is wrong and only you are right. So keep on trucking in there.

WIAC student athletes graduate. They obviously are doing something right. That's all that matters. Not to you though.

Why are you trying to change the subject? That usually happens when you have no counter argument. I am not and was not talking about graduation rates.

WIAC schools do not have the right to spend the state's money on varsity athletics just because they want to have teams.

[MplsBison]

No, it really isn't, especially when comparing expenses to revenues across the entire subdivision. I'd like to know where you extracted the info from to arrive at that generalization, though I'd suspect its somewhere south of your lumbar.

If FCS FB were such a net drain on schools, more schools would be dropping the sport altogether or reducing scholarships. Schools like NDSU would still be kicking around in D-II if the institution didn't think FCS FB was a more equitable financial investment.

There's more than a dozen and a half NCAA sports that typically run up red ink, most with little possibility for ROI, unlike FCS FB. At NDSU for example, the revenues for the golf, volleyball & soccer programs aren't likely coming within a fraction of covering their expenses with ticket & merchandise sales and donations, unlike Bison FB.

At most I-AA schools, the multi-million dollar budget that is required at this level of play exceeds the revenue brought in by home football games and disbursements from the conference. You know this is full well true at most schools (not Delaware), so I'm not sure why you're challenging it.

Just because the revenue doesn't match the expenses doesn't mean schools are going to drop the sport. But it does mean many DII schools won't move up. Hence, that explains why there aren't more I-AA schools in the midwest (the point of the thread).

The NCAA requires a minimum number of sports. If they didn't, many schools would sponsor far fewer teams. That would be the right thing in my opinion.

[MSUBobcat]

There is no link to provide. I don't have the time to do all the research that would be needed to fully prove my point, but I know I'm correct.

At a minimum, all one needs to do is count the number of public universities (not colleges) that are participating in DIII vs the total members of that division and then take a look at the average enrollment and budget of those universities in Wisconsin vs. the same averages for the non-public schools in DIII (that make up the vast majority of the division).

I think you'll notice a pretty obvious, stark contrast.


Does that obvious institutional advantage automatically transfer to the athletic department? Not necessarily. But on the other hand no one is forcing those schools to have athletic departments in the first place. They could very well educate Wisconsin's high school graduates without sponsoring varsity athletic teams.

GD, this is golden. This has to be my new sig. Someone PLEASE tell me how to get it there. xprayxxrotatehx:D

[Twentysix]

The 'Midwest' is mainly the states formed from the Northwest Ordinance territories of 1787. But those states are too diverse for 'Midwest' to have any meaning in grouping them together.

Better to go with Joel Garreau's Nine Nations of North America (though the map is 30 years old and the boundaries may need a little adjusting)
http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4070/4491510177_53bedea796.jpg

That is a great map.

[Squealofthepig]

GD, this is golden. This has to be my new sig. Someone PLEASE tell me how to get it there. xprayxxrotatehx:D

In case you don't know, Click on "Forum Actions" -> "Edit Profile". On the left, you'll see a yellow bar in the columns - look below that for "Edit Signature".

Also, be sure to include something on Confirmation Bias (still probably the leading fallacy error on the net, though ad hominem attacks may still be king).

[Squealofthepig]

That is a great map.

Awful lot of New England up in Canada - we really gotta watch those French-speaking upper-Maine-ians.

[LakesBison]

Msu bobcat I look forward to your new sig line

[Fordhamanhattan]

The Midwest has suffered since Notre Dame upgraded.

[UAalum72]

Awful lot of New England up in Canada - we really gotta watch those French-speaking upper-Maine-ians.Nope, only Quebec is French. The Canadian Maritimes (Labrador, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island) are English-speaking, and have more flights to 'the Boston states' than to the rest of Canada.

[GABison]

I don't think there's going to be an "FBS" designation in another 5-10 years.....they'll be a 64 school or so "Super" division, the other schools of the FBS now will be lumped in with the rest of the FCS schools for a new sort of D1 designation.

I hope you are right, but I am concerned that FCS/1AA will be pushed down to "third tier" with the current non-BCS programs becoming the "second tier".

[Sader87]

I remember when Garreau's book came out though I never read it....here's a little more info on how he broke down/designated what he believed were the 9 nations of North America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

[MTfan4life]

Why are you trying to change the subject? That usually happens when you have no counter argument. I am not and was not talking about graduation rates.

WIAC schools do not have the right to spend the state's money on varsity athletics just because they want to have teams.

"WIAC schools don't have the right?" Clearly if they didn't have the right, more people would be opposed to what's going on rather than just a single person not even from Wisconsin. They do have the right, that's why they are able to do it, and that's why no one is trying to stop them other then bridge trolls from other states. But you're right, you know far more than any of them. They're clearly just running themselves into the red and won't stop until you step in. Gosh you should run for political office. You're clearly right on every thought you've ever had. The world would be so much better with you in charge.

[MplsBison]

I remember when Garreau's book came out though I never read it....here's a little more info on how he broke down/designated what he believed were the 9 nations of North America:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Nine_Nations_of_North_America

The capitol of the "breadbasket" would very obviously be Minneapolis. Far more important than KC.

[MplsBison]

"WIAC schools don't have the right?" Clearly if they didn't have the right, more people would be opposed to what's going on rather than just a single person not even from Wisconsin. They do have the right, that's why they are able to do it, and that's why no one is trying to stop them other then bridge trolls from other states. But you're right, you know far more than any of them. They're clearly just running themselves into the red and won't stop until you step in. Gosh you should run for political office. You're clearly right on every thought you've ever had. The world would be so much better with you in charge.

I see you have no argument and nothing to contribute, just trolling. Thanks for conceding to me.

[MTfan4life]

I see you have no argument and nothing to contribute, just trolling. Thanks for conceding to me.

This last post is just dripping with irony. xlolx

[Bill]

Just thought I’d throw my two cents in:

In a class that I teach, we show some of the differences in college sports with the NCAA’s figures.

The data below is from 2004-2009, The “NCAA Revenues/Expenses Division I Report. All are exact quotes about FCS as a subdivision:

The median negative net generated revenue, representing expenses
in excess of generated revenues moved from $7,121,000 in 2006
to $7,441,000 in 2007, $7,937,000 in 2008, and $8,643,000 in
2009. Thus, the median losses for the subdivision’s schools continue
to grow, increasing by 9.0 percent in 2009. (2.3) The apparent
discrepancy between this item and the previous two is the result of
reporting median (midpoint) data.

No athletics programs reported net generated revenues in 2009.
The median negative net generated revenue (expenses in excess of
generated revenues) in 2008 was $7,937,000 and $8,704,000 in
2009. The net losses have increased steadily over the six year period.
(4.5)

Only two percent of football programs and six percent of men’s
basketball programs, and two percent of women’s basketball
programs reported net generated revenues (surpluses) for 2009,
which is consistent over recent years. These net generated revenues
are minimal. The median losses for the remaining programs in 2009
are $1,453,000 for football, $601,000 for men’s basketball, and
$745,000 for women’s basketball. (4.6)


Just adding to fuel to the fire when it comes to FCS football – for the most part, it’s not a money maker, and certainly not enough to help pay for other sports (as in the FBS level)….

[UAalum72]

The capitol of the "breadbasket" would very obviously be Minneapolis. Far more important than KC.
You are wrong...AGAIN. Kansas City Board of Trade handles Hard Red Winter Wheat - triple the acreage and more than double the production of the spring wheat that goes thru the Minn. Grain Exchange. That's what's important to the Breadbasket. Anything else Minneapolis has is unimportant to irrelevant as far as being iconic/symbolic of that nation.

[henfan]

At most I-AA schools, the multi-million dollar budget that is required at this level of play exceeds the revenue brought in by home football games and disbursements from the conference. You know this is full well true at most schools (not Delaware), so I'm not sure why you're challenging it.

Try to keep on point. I wasn't arguing that that FB expenses exceed revenues at many FCS schools because: 1) that's obvious, and 2) that wasn't the statement you originally made. Your's was a more extreme, off-the-cuff assertion that FCS FB “was the biggest money loser in college athletics”. While that might be your opinion, it has little basis in reality.

FCS schools sponsor FB because they understand the basic fact that the sport brings thousands of people each Saturday to campuses across the country. These are folks who’ll buy tickets, merchandise & other concessions, pay parking and, in many cases, make charitable contributions back to the schools. There are a dozen and a half money-bleeding sports that don't add even a fraction of the revenues provided by FCS FB and they costs hundreds of thousands of dollars each to operate. They're dubbed 'non-revenue sports' for good reason.

Now, if a national study was conducted and schools were honest with their numbers (instead of the EADA fiction), we'd find out which of the non-revenue sports was "really the biggest money loser in college athletics".

[Laker]

Anything else Minneapolis has is unimportant to irrelevant as far as being iconic/symbolic of that nation.

But we've got the Lynx! :D

[MplsBison]

This last post is just dripping with irony. xlolx

Sure, but all the same you did have no argument.

[MplsBison]

You are wrong...AGAIN. Kansas City Board of Trade handles Hard Red Winter Wheat - triple the acreage and more than double the production of the spring wheat that goes thru the Minn. Grain Exchange. That's what's important to the Breadbasket. Anything else Minneapolis has is unimportant to irrelevant as far as being iconic/symbolic of that nation.

One second there professor. Just wondering if you might like to consider who is actually BUYING the grain and doing something with it. I don't think many folks eat raw harvested wheat these days.

I know of one company for sure:

http://www.usc.salvationarmy.org/usc/kan/images/General_Mills_logo.jpg



And how about corn for that matter?

You may have heard of this agra-business company as well:

http://www.consultantreferralnetwork.org/images/cargill_logo.gif


They do ok.

[MplsBison]

Try to keep on point. I wasn't arguing that that FB expenses exceed revenues at many FCS schools because: 1) that's obvious, and 2) that wasn't the statement you originally made. Your's was a more extreme, off-the-cuff assertion that FCS FB “was the biggest money loser in college athletics”. While that might be your opinion, it has little basis in reality.

FCS schools sponsor FB because they understand the basic fact that the sport brings thousands of people each Saturday to campuses across the country. These are folks who’ll buy tickets, merchandise & other concessions, pay parking and, in many cases, make charitable contributions back to the schools. There are a dozen and a half money-bleeding sports that don't add even a fraction of the revenues provided by FCS FB and they costs hundreds of thousands of dollars each to operate. They're dubbed 'non-revenue sports' for good reason.

Now, if a national study was conducted and schools were honest with their numbers (instead of the EADA fiction), we'd find out which of the non-revenue sports was "really the biggest money loser in college athletics".

The point of the thread was asking why there aren't more I-AA teams in the midwest.

I provided the answer: it costs too much vs. very little reward for the remaining DII teams to consider moving up.


However, I would indeed like to see your study conducted with transparent, well defined methodology for calculated the actual costs of each sport and the actual revenue of each sport and therefore finding out on a per sport, per division (sub-division) basis, how much money each is losing or gaining on average. Would love to see that. Probably ain't gunna happen.

[MplsBison]

Just thought I’d throw my two cents in:

In a class that I teach, we show some of the differences in college sports with the NCAA’s figures.

The data below is from 2004-2009, The “NCAA Revenues/Expenses Division I Report. All are exact quotes about FCS as a subdivision:

The median negative net generated revenue, representing expenses
in excess of generated revenues moved from $7,121,000 in 2006
to $7,441,000 in 2007, $7,937,000 in 2008, and $8,643,000 in
2009. Thus, the median losses for the subdivision’s schools continue
to grow, increasing by 9.0 percent in 2009. (2.3) The apparent
discrepancy between this item and the previous two is the result of
reporting median (midpoint) data.

No athletics programs reported net generated revenues in 2009.
The median negative net generated revenue (expenses in excess of
generated revenues) in 2008 was $7,937,000 and $8,704,000 in
2009. The net losses have increased steadily over the six year period.
(4.5)

Only two percent of football programs and six percent of men’s
basketball programs, and two percent of women’s basketball
programs reported net generated revenues (surpluses) for 2009,
which is consistent over recent years. These net generated revenues
are minimal. The median losses for the remaining programs in 2009
are $1,453,000 for football, $601,000 for men’s basketball, and
$745,000 for women’s basketball. (4.6)


Just adding to fuel to the fire when it comes to FCS football – for the most part, it’s not a money maker, and certainly not enough to help pay for other sports (as in the FBS level)….

Right. It doesn't bring in more money than it costs, in general. And the deficit is most likely much larger in absolute terms than it is in DII.

So where's the incentive to move up unless you're reasonably assured of doing well (NDSU).

[MSUBobcat]

I see you have no argument and nothing to contribute, just trolling. Thanks for conceding to me.

Damn! I just added a MplsBison quote to my sig. Wish I had read through to the end of the thread first. It's a coin toss which of these is better. xnodxxlolx

[Twentysix]

One second there professor. Just wondering if you might like to consider who is actually BUYING the grain and doing something with it. I don't think many folks eat raw harvested wheat these days.

I know of one company for sure:

http://www.usc.salvationarmy.org/usc/kan/images/General_Mills_logo.jpg

And how about corn for that matter?

You may have heard of this agra-business company as well:

http://www.consultantreferralnetwork.org/images/cargill_logo.gif


They do ok.

Haha how about this one http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-m-B6Vn_-Prc/T6Bdsicg_1I/AAAAAAAAAMc/xAhbj5Mhuuk/s1600/character_doughboy-big2.png (I realize its part of General Mills, I just wanted to post the doughboy XD.)

[Twentysix]

Nope, only Quebec is French. The Canadian Maritimes (Labrador, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island) are English-speaking, and have more flights to 'the Boston states' than to the rest of Canada.

You must mean primarily french, because all of Canada speaks French. Even Canadian Fargo(Winnipeg), has loads of French speakers.


Under the Canadian Constitution, the federal government has both English and French as its official languages in respect of all government services, including the courts, and all federal legislation is enacted bilingually.

[Laker]

(I realize its part of General Mills, I just wanted to post the doughboy XD.)

I'd laugh every time they would show the Doughboy commercial- the guy would poke him in the stomach and he would go "he-he-he!"

[MplsBison]

Damn! I just added a MplsBison quote to my sig. Wish I had read through to the end of the thread first. It's a coin toss which of these is better. xnodxxlolx

Why not add them both?

[MTfan4life]

Damn! I just added a MplsBison quote to my sig. Wish I had read through to the end of the thread first. It's a coin toss which of these is better. xnodxxlolx

You should add his preceding statement where he demanded someone to provide a link or else they were just making it up. Just check below for what I'm talking about.

[MplsBison]

You should add his preceding statement where he demanded someone to provide a link or else they were just making it up. Just check below for what I'm talking about.

Had you considered the possibility that it was perfectly reasonable for me to demand a link for the figures he claimed he read from an NCAA website while at the same time there being no link in existence for the claim I had made (for which I did not make the claim that I read it from a website), before you updated your signature?

I'm assuming not.

[UAalum72]

You must mean primarily french, because all of Canada speaks French. Even Canadian Fargo(Winnipeg), has loads of French speakers.
Of course primarily, but 85% of Canadian French speakers are in Quebec.

[MSUBobcat]

You should add his preceding statement where he demanded someone to provide a link or else they were just making it up. Just check below for what I'm talking about.

Yeah those are all gems. I couldn't have the same sig lines as another poster though and I want to save space. There are other trolls out there to be quoted. I have a feeling after this weekend, there may be a few quality comments from Chattown.