Conference Scholarship Question..................

[bincitysioux]

I have a question about the number of scholarships that certain leagues allow their schools to offer. Specifically wondering about the following:

Big South
Ivy
MEAC
NEC
OVC
Patriot
Pioneer
SWAC

Please correct me if I am wrong:
-The Ivy, Patriot, and Pinoeer do not allow scholarships

-The NEC and MEAC have scholarship limits

-The Big South, OVC, and SWAC schools have the full 63 schollies


Thanks in advance.

[Dane96]

I don't think all the schools in the OVC, MEAC, Big South and SWAC meet the limits but they can give 63.

The PL is currently MERIT BASED...and probably 3-4 schools give close to the full 63.

The NEC is capped at 38 this year...40 next and that likely WONT rise with Albany leaving now (huge proponent of moving up past 40).

Anyone believing that the IVY League kids aren't getting rides needs a refresher; not meaning you...but others who will come on and say they don't give out rides (MplDouche).

[Franks Tanks]

The Patriot league currently does't offer traditional scholarships, but is considered a scholarship conference by the NCAA. Right now the league awards need based scholarships, but next year league members will give regular schoalrships. The PL limit will be 60. The Ivy league technically gives no athletic aid, but most of their players recieve significant aid based on the school policies which make generous need based aid available to all students. The Pioneer league basically uses a D-III model.

The NEC has a limit of 40. I am not aware of a MEAC limit, but I would guess a few of the schools don't have a full allotment.

BS, OVC and SWAC have no limits but again some programs may not have the full allotment..

[UAalum72]

The NEC limit is 38 this year, 40 next year.

The Patriot will begin adding scholarships next year, up to 60 in four years, except 1) Fordham began adding them two years ago, which is why they aren't eligible for the league championship for the time being 2) they already give need-based aid equivalent to scholarship numbers in the 20s (Georgetown) to mid-50s (Lehigh and some others)

Ivy League gives so much need-based aid that most of their players might as well be on scholarship.

I don't remember hearing that the MEAC has limits, but have heard that not all the SWAC teams have always been fully funded.

The Pioneer, which is mostly (all?) private colleges, gives need-based aid similar to all their other students.

[dgtw]

The Pioneer, which is mostly (all?) private colleges, gives need-based aid similar to all their other students.

All but Morehead State are private.

[DFW HOYA]

The Patriot will begin adding scholarships next year, up to 60 in four years, except 1) Fordham began adding them two years ago, which is why they aren't eligible for the league championship for the time being 2) they already give need-based aid equivalent to scholarship numbers in the 20s (Georgetown) to mid-50s (Lehigh and some others).

A high estimate for Georgetown, which is why the disparity will become serious in a few years.

If the 2016 season rolls around with...

Fordham, Colgate, Lehigh: 60 scholarships
Lafayette, Holy Cross: 55
Bucknell: 50
Georgetown 0

that's going to be a problem.

[Dane96]

Man...I do feel for you and the others working hard to promote, coach, play and support G'Town. Sad ****.

[DFW HOYA]

Student media expressed their disappointment, too.

http://www.thehoya.com/opinion/gu-punts-on-merit-aid-1.2894524

[DSUrocks07]

MEAC allows 63 scholarships...but most of the schools fail to fully fund all of them. I believe that DSU is somewhere between 50-58.

[DFW HOYA]

It was reported on ESPN Saturday that Savannah State has 50.

[superman7515]

The MEAC "allows" 63 scholarships, as long as you don't actually do it. Delaware State went through a short period where they full funded their athletics program. Won the men's basketball regular season championship a few times in a row, made the NCAA tourney, had a .736 win % in football... and then the conference slapped their hands and they announced they were reducing their athletics budget to be more in-line with the rest of the conference. xsmhx

C'mon NEC...

[fc97]

The MEAC "allows" 63 scholarships, as long as you don't actually do it. Delaware State went through a short period where they full funded their athletics program. Won the men's basketball regular season championship a few times in a row, made the NCAA tourney, had a .736 win % in football... and then the conference slapped their hands and they announced they were reducing their athletics budget to be more in-line with the rest of the conference. xsmhx

C'mon NEC...

i really dont understand why the big south doesn't just come to an agreement with delaware state. seriously, they'd step in and replace stony brook and work out so that they can fund more.

i am pretty sure the meac allows 63, and on normal years, schools like a&T, a&M, sc state, bethune, hampton, norfolk were hitting those in football. Many schools have scholarship reductions for one reason or another. some APR related, some budgeting, and so on. you'll find the same case throughout the SWAC

the big south allows 63. liberty is there. im pretty sure coastal and g-w are there. charleston southern, the last time I saw it reported, was sitting around 30. presbyterian was around 38 trying to get to 45 the last time I read. the SAC conference in d-II (where elon, gardner-webb and presbyterian came form) has a 28 scholarship limit; which is low even for D-II.

The OVC most schools are near the 63 except for ut-martin

It isn't a true measure, but you can look at who schedules FBS teams. Outside of HBCUs, if they aren't scheduling FBS teams then most likely they don't offer enoguh scholarships to count for FBS opponents for bowl qualifications.

[danefan]

It was reported on ESPN Saturday that Savannah State has 50.

How do they get all these FBS games if they're not a counter?

[DFW HOYA]

How do they get all these FBS games if they're not a counter?

Schools like Oklahoma State and Florida State have 11 I-A counter games on the schedule already. They don't need the 12th game to qualify for bowl purposes, they're already covered.

Since a number of MEAC teams are presumably below 57 I'd guess it's the same issue--they'll play the game and take the check, but the I-A opponents aren't on the bowl margin to begin with and the payout is less than traveling on the road to another BCS school to fill the game.

Probably the same with many SWAC teams. According to this link, Grambling State has only 53 scholarships...the same Grambling team that was down 28-0 to TCU after the first quarter Saturday night.

http://www.frogsowar.com/2012/9/7/3301342/friday-smack-talk-TCU-Grambling-Football

[bluehenbillk]

You either offer 63 or you're not trying....

[danefan]

They changed the rules (http://http://m.espn.go.com/ncf/story?storyId=8228544) this year to allow one win over an FCS school to count toward bowl eligibility regardless of scholarship number.

I'm hoping this means a 2018-2019 home-and-home with Rutgers is on the table.

I don't think that is what the new rule does. The new rule only applies if there aren't enough teams at .500 records under the older rule (1 FCS counter school only). If they can't fill the bowls with those team, only then to do they go down the new hierarchy. So selection is basically as follows:

1. Teams at .500 or above with only one FCS school counting if averaging 57.5 scholarships over a two-year average.
2. Teams at 6-6 with a win over any one FCS school regardless of scholarships.
3. Teams at 6-6 with two wins over FCS schools regardless of scholarships.
4. 6-7 teams with their 7th loss in a conference championship.
5. 6-7 teams that have played 13 games (e.g. Hawaii and its home opponents)
6. Transition FCS-to-FBS teams that are 6-6 or above
7. 5-7 FBS teams that are in the Top 5 APR

[Pard4Life]

As far as I can tell everyone in the PL is going 60 except Gtown.

[TTUEagles]

The OVC most schools are near the 63 except for ut-martin


I could be wrong, but I think it's Austin Peay that's not at the full 63...pretty certain UT-M is at 63.

[MplsBison]

A high estimate for Georgetown, which is why the disparity will become serious in a few years.

If the 2016 season rolls around with...

Fordham, Colgate, Lehigh: 60 scholarships
Lafayette, Holy Cross: 55
Bucknell: 50
Georgetown 0

that's going to be a problem.

I'm pretty sure Gtown football players are getting free money from the school. It may not be a straight up check from the athletic department, it might instead be a check from the "George C. Moneybags III endowment fund for excellence in Georgetown undergraduate studies" or something to that effect.

It's just a simple matter of if the NCAA determines that to be some amount of a scholarship equivalency, or not. The school (perhaps for title IX reasons) may say "you can't count that check that Billy received for $25k this semester from the GCMIII fund as a scholarship equivalency, because 100 students applied for it any Billy was chosen as the top candidate". Then the NCAA rolls over and says "whatever". Of course the fact is that Billy got to the top of the list for playing football.


But I bet if you summed all the checks that Gtown football players are getting either directly from the school or from various endowed funds (not counting things like work study or on campus student jobs), it would be in the millions. You can't tell me 100 kids are just hunky doory with paying $50k in tuition per year and all other associated costs of going to school at Gtown out of their own pockets. Ain't happening.


I don't know what you tell a recruit about that, as a coach. Maybe it goes something like "look Billy, I can't tell you exactly where the money is going to come from...but I can promise you that you're not going to have to pay for your education if you come play for us. We'll take of you." ???

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

There was mention that Lehigh has dropped their equivalencies to the high 40's for this year. They had been near 60 for the last few recently. I'm guessing this was done to make for room for the first scholarship class.

[MplsBison]

There was mention that Lehigh has dropped their equivalencies to the high 40's for this year. They had been near 60 for the last few recently. I'm guessing this was done to make for room for the first scholarship class.

That doesn't make sense unless you mean the first scholarship class....which is already on campus now? Otherwise, why would you cut 15 scholarship equivalencies worth of money if you're not going to pay out 15 scholarships worth of money until a year later?

[DFW HOYA]

But I bet if you summed all the checks that Gtown football players are getting either directly from the school or from various endowed funds (not counting things like work study or on campus student jobs), it would be in the millions. You can't tell me 100 kids are just hunky doory with paying $50k in tuition per year and all other associated costs of going to school at Gtown out of their own pockets. Ain't happening.

Another "forest vs. trees" discussion.

Georgetown does not offer offer football schoalrships. There are some number of buyouts of work study which, in total, add up to some number of equivalencies. I don't pretend to know what that is, but it's been estimated on this board at somewhere in the mid-teens. Any other aid received is handled through institutional financial aid.

Gergetown providees "100% demonstrated need" to all students, but "need" is a relative term. If your family makes less than $70K a year, there are going to be grant/loan options available. Over $70K, a little less so. Over $100K, probably not. Only 41% of GU students receive institutional scholarship aid, so a lot of folks have to get their own aid to meet the cost of attendance ($55k). The average financial aid award was $23,500, so the "average" student can expect upwards of $80-100K debt upon graduation, which is a big challenge. Obviously, a Wall Street job can help pay that off in shorter order, but there are also graduating English majors out there with that debt ahead of them.

Georgetown does not have the muscle of H-Y-P which esentially offers a free education to an accepted student with a HHI under $80K and no more than 10% the cost of tuition under $200K.

http://alumni.georgetown.edu/newsevents/newsevents_145.html

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

That doesn't make sense unless you mean the first scholarship class....which is already on campus now? Otherwise, why would you cut 15 scholarship equivalencies worth of money if you're not going to pay out 15 scholarships worth of money until a year later?

Based on the old system Lehigh would bring in really large recruiting classes, most PL did, compared to other programs in FCS. The last two years, especially this past winter, the classes were smaller. My guess is, this was done to eliminate some of the partials and such that count towards the 60 limit.

[MplsBison]

Another "forest vs. trees" discussion.

Georgetown does not offer offer football schoalrships. There are some number of buyouts of work study which, in total, add up to some number of equivalencies. I don't pretend to know what that is, but it's been estimated on this board at somewhere in the mid-teens. Any other aid received is handled through institutional financial aid.

Gergetown providees "100% demonstrated need" to all students, but "need" is a relative term. If your family makes less than $70K a year, there are going to be grant/loan options available. Over $70K, a little less so. Over $100K, probably not. Only 41% of GU students receive institutional scholarship aid, so a lot of folks have to get their own aid to meet the cost of attendance ($55k). The average financial aid award was $23,500, so the "average" student can expect upwards of $100,000 debt upon graduation, which is a big challenge for parents. Obviously, a Wall Street job can help pay that off in shorter order, but there are also English majors out there, too.

Georgetown does not have the muscle of H-Y-P which esentially offers a free education to an accepted student with a HHI under $80K and no more than 10% the cost of tuition under $200K.

I think you know well what I'm trying to say. So there's no reason to muddy it up with talk of official athletic scholarships. I know that's not on the table.

So again, football players at Georgetown are getting money from the school, free money (and not having to work a student job for it either). Perhaps it's coming mostly from the financial aid office, but the awards they're getting are disproportionately large due to being football players. *wink wink*

[fc97]

I could be wrong, but I think it's Austin Peay that's not at the full 63...pretty certain UT-M is at 63.

maybe you are right. I cant find my source. but the data was from 2003 or so, rather old. the data showed UTM very low, at charleston southern type levels. this was back when austin peay was in the pioneer.

[MplsBison]

Based on the old system Lehigh would bring in really large recruiting classes, most PL did, compared to other programs in FCS. The last two years, especially this past winter, the classes were smaller. My guess is, this was done to eliminate some of the partials and such that count towards the 60 limit.

I'm saying that 60 scholarship equivalencies costs the same money as 60 scholarships, by definition. If it doesn't, then your definition is broken. It doesn't matter if it's a 60/0, 30/30 or 0/60 distribution. If the NCAA has determined that one scholarship equivalency at Lehigh costs %60k (making that number up) then Lehigh would have been spending $3.6 million to fund 60 scholarship equivalencies.

Now you're saying that they're only spending $2.4 million this year?

[DFW HOYA]

So again, football players at Georgetown are getting money from the school, free money (and not having to work a student job for it either). Perhaps it's coming mostly from the financial aid office, but the awards they're getting are disproportionately large due to being football players. *wink wink*

That's not the case. By rule it's the same proportion available to every other student.

[MplsBison]

That's not the case. By rule it's the same proportion available to every other student.

The financial aid dept at Gtown can't print money. It either comes from the federal government or it comes from donor gifts. If you only have X dollars of endowed money to be spend on students, they're going to have a priority system based on keeping the students who are worth the most to the school happy. Therefore, football players would be higher priority than an average student or someone who is majoring in spanish or something like that.

[MplsBison]

No I'm not saying that at all. The money they're providing to football players is no different than money provided to other non-athlete students.

I'm just saying that it's not like the players are Georgetown aren't getting money, in the way that a blunt proclamation like "zero scholarships" implies.


It'd be interesting to see a "let's really get it all out in the open" type of metric, something like "total cost in dollars uncovered by institutional or federal aid (excluding work-study or loans)" for each football team in the Patriot League. I guess Georgetown would have the highest dollar amount, but the real thing I'm wondering about is by how much.

[DFW HOYA]

Georgetown's aid formula is probably closer to Brown and Cornell than H-Y-P, but the same general rules apply. These programs skew to either poorer students or full-fare students, with the middle class caught in the financial vise.

[MplsBison]

Georgetown's aid formula is probably closer to Brown and Cornell than H-Y-P, but the same general rules apply. These programs skew to either poorer students or full-fare students, with the middle class caught in the financial vise.

Well I'm here to tell you, whether you believe it or not, that I for one believe the Gtown financial aid dept is not universally blind to all factors other than need in all cases. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be, I'm just saying I bet they aren't in certain cases - like athletes.

[fc97]

Well I'm here to tell you, whether you believe it or not, that I for one believe the Gtown financial aid dept is not universally blind to all factors other than need in all cases. And I'm not saying they should or shouldn't be, I'm just saying I bet they aren't in certain cases - like athletes.

this is coming from the person that wanted sources, cited, to prove caa and schools looking at the caa.

you have no proof, you have no clues, you can provide no details. if you cannot provide any firm facts, or heck, even conjecture from a legitimate source, then why don't you just drop it

[MplsBison]

this is coming from the person that wanted sources, cited, to prove caa and schools looking at the caa.

you have no proof, you have no clues, you can provide no details. if you cannot provide any firm facts, or heck, even conjecture from a legitimate source, then why don't you just drop it

It's fun to speculate.

[MplsBison]

I thought that to some extent this is what the "scholarship equivalencies" metric works out to? I didn't think Gtown was hiding the grants-in-aid or pretending that they weren't scholarships by the NCAA's definition. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong. I was under the impression they maintained that they weren't scholarships by Georgetown's philosophical definition, which is entirely their prerogative.

Georgetown says that those grants-in-aid go to the players on the football team who are neediest, not the most talented or those who are most at risk of transferring to another school or signing with another school in the recruiting process. If you know of a star running back with millionaire parents getting the grant while a second-string long snapper with parents on food stamps pays his way, then point the situation out. Or if you know of a player who lost his grant when he stopped playing for the team, point him out. But I haven't heard any evidence like that.

Not even close. The NCAA only cares about money being given from the athletic department directly to student athletes, which isn't accessible to other students.

Any student athlete that receives a check from the financial aid office where the source of the money is available to other students does not count as a scholarship equivalency. So all federal aid and a lot of money from endowed gifts that are to be given to students in general (not necessarily just athletes) don't count.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

What part of $55K a year is fun? How a 'need' package is constructed might be up for discussion, loan v. grant v. work-study, but it all comes out of a financial aid funding. Georgetown's displeasure with the advent of merit scholarships in the PL does seem to suggest they are being pressured to change existing processes. GT already has other scholarship programs to hang in the Big East, but the math was already balanced without football, something which would have (further) Title IX implications.

[MplsBison]

Ok. Well, that's actually the only money I care about, either.

Again, if you're going to insinuate that Georgetown is playing shell games with its money, and giving athletic scholarships under other titles, you should have some evidence.

Well I care about the other money. It's interesting to me, to deep dive into the actual mechanics of it.

NDSU is so boring, 63 scholarships worth are simply cut a check right from the athletic department. Done and done. Now it is interesting to note that some of those 63 from the AD are actually funded via endowed gifts directly to the athletic department, via the booster club. But that's about as interesting as it goes.

Georgetown is the perfect case study. A hundred football players officially on the team, each having to pay $55k in tuition alone each year, nevermind the high costs of living near Georgetown itself -- all on a team that claims zero athletic scholarships are awarded to football players. Very interesting indeed.

I'd love to get the books and study this year's team. Each player by player. Not trying to prove any point, but just see what's going on.


I already know DFW's pinky-lifted brandy snifter answer "not a whole lot". Well, I don't buy it!

[Fox 94]

Dude, you have issues.

[DFW HOYA]

Not sure what "the high costs of living near Georgetown" have to do with anything, but this thread can otherwise fade off.

[MplsBison]

Dude, you have issues.

No I'm perfectly normal, actually. Nothing wrong with being curious.

[MplsBison]

Not sure what "the high costs of living near Georgetown" have to do with anything, but this thread can otherwise fade off.

Does it make you nervous?

[fc97]

It's fun to speculate.

you mean its fun to make stuff up about schools you have a problem with?

[MplsBison]

you mean its fun to make stuff up about schools you have a problem with?

I don't have a problem with these schools. As I explained, their case studies are much more interesting to me.

You say make stuff up, I say speculate. Either way, it's an internet message board.