Still no playoffs for Ivies

[bulldog10jw]

I expected no less from these hypocrites:

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/44beff0b548f8

There were also discussions regarding the Ivy League's post-season ban on football. However, no changes were made to this rule, and the Ivy League presidents don't appear to be changing their views any time soon.

"There is, and has long been, a clear and strong consensus in the group. Realistically, this can't go any further," University President Amy Gutmann said.

[*****]

gawd

[DFW HOYA]

I expected no less from these hypocrites:
"There is, and has long been, a clear and strong consensus in the group. Realistically, this can't go any further," University President Amy Gutmann said.

"Can't"? When would any Ivy school use the word "can't"?

What the realease meant to say was "There is, and has long been, a clear and strong consensus in the H-Y-P group."

[*****]

H-Y-P ... ancient is a good description.

[TheBisonator]

[QUOTE=DFW HOYA]"Can't"? When would any Ivy school use the word "can't"?QUOTE]

That's a very good point, and one I was thinking about. These are IVY LEAGUE schools, fer cryin out loud. The word "can't" is not supposed to be in their vocabulary.

[youwouldno]

Well, their loss. Other schools benefit as a result of their stupidity, in terms of available playoff spots and recruiting. A lot of players choose to play in a I-AA playoff conference over the Ivies, even with their tremendous reputations academically. Some players pick an Ivy school over a I-A, too, but playoff eligibility would really boost their depth.

[Mr. C]

There "CAN" be a change, if and when those three old geezers from Harvard, Yale and Princeton finally kick off.

[rcny46]

I expected no less from these hypocrites:

http://www.dailypennsylvanian.com/vnews/display.v/ART/44beff0b548f8

There were also discussions regarding the Ivy League's post-season ban on football. However, no changes were made to this rule, and the Ivy League presidents don't appear to be changing their views any time soon.

"There is, and has long been, a clear and strong consensus in the group. Realistically, this can't go any further," University President Amy Gutmann said.


I've asked this question before,but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory response.Why do the powers that be in the Ivy League permit post season participation by its various teams in every sport but football? The hockey season,for example,comprises a five month regular season,with several weeks of playoff involvement,and that's allowed.The same is true for lax,basketball and baseball.The logic escapes me.

[ucdtim17]

Yeah I don't understand why football is special? Are the players just dumber than in other sports? They can't handle the extra week of practice and a game?

[Go Poly]

Yeah I don't understand why football is special? Are the players just dumber than in other sports? They can't handle the extra week of practice and a game?


Excellent point! What's with the blue bloods from the Ivy League? Years back they played in bowl games, right? Must have been smarter students back in those days.....well, Kennedy was there in the '50's...okay, scratch that.:D

[DetroitFlyer]

Frankly, there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around in the I-AA community. It cracks me up to see you all salivate at the prospect of having the Ivys join your precious playoffs while you quickly turn the other cheek and openly discriminate against the PFL or NEC, ( I won’t count the MAAC since they do not have enough members ). Of course you will also scream bloody murder if some obscure writer in the country refers to I-AA as something less than “Division I”, but you will not hesitate to denigrate the teams in the PFL, NEC and MAAC as somehow not worthy of being considered I-AA…. This community and I-AA needs to become much more inclusive by openly encouraging all of the teams in the division to actively participate. It is simply hypocrisy to beg the Ivys to join the playoffs while discriminating against teams in other conferences that you do not deem worthy. Ridiculous!

[Umass74]

That's just lame. IMHO,there is no question that the top Ivy teams could compete in the playoffs. The Ancient Eight not competing is loss for all I-AA.

Hell, MIT plays Div III football, if they made the DIII playoffs MIT would go and have a ball.

[bluehenbillk]

You'd think that if anybody was capable of holding up academically to an "extended season" it'd be an Ivy Leaguer. I propose that since they can't handle it the NCAA just make them ineligible for participation in all NCAA sports. Makes sense right?

The hypocrisy that some of the presidents of the Ivy schools demonstrate is offensive.

[MplsBison]

Indeed, it is the Ivy's loss.

The Patriot League schools are just as good academically as the Ivy's.

If I had to choose between an Ivy and a PL school, I take a dump on the floor of the Ivy school's main building.

[AppGuy04]

Figures

[MplsBison]

I've asked this question before,but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory response.Why do the powers that be in the Ivy League permit post season participation by its various teams in every sport but football? The hockey season,for example,comprises a five month regular season,with several weeks of playoff involvement,and that's allowed.The same is true for lax,basketball and baseball.The logic escapes me.

I agree with this with a small caveat.

The Ivy's don't have a post season basketball tournament. I always see that they just give their auto bid to the regular season winner.

[colgate13]

Indeed, it is the Ivy's loss.

The Patriot League schools are just as good academically as the Ivy's.

If I had to choose between an Ivy and a PL school, I take a dump on the floor of the Ivy school's main building.

You just sky-rocketed up the 'colgate13's favorite poster list'! Keep it up and you might challenge Grizo for the title! :p

[colgate13]

I've asked this question before,but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory response.Why do the powers that be in the Ivy League permit post season participation by its various teams in every sport but football? The hockey season,for example,comprises a five month regular season,with several weeks of playoff involvement,and that's allowed.The same is true for lax,basketball and baseball.The logic escapes me.
I think I've made an honest attempt in some other threads. I'll give it another shot.

Reasons why the Ivy League doesn't permit post-season football play (in order of importance):

#1 - Those at the highest power at these schools are still pissed off they can't be in the same division as current I-A schools. They see themselves (rightly so) as the premier universities of higher learning in the land, therefore, all of their sports should compete at the highest level as well. On their terms of course (i.e. no scholarships, 10 games seasons, etc.). By recognizing I-AA playoffs, they legitimize 'second-tier' status and by god, the Ivy is second tier to no one.

#2 - If they even were to admit they are really I-AA schools, then there is the problem of who they would play in the playoffs. No, it's not about losing because they would win probably 20% of the time like PL schools. It's about the names of schools they would be playing against. Ivy teams have a close relationship with the Patriot teams (and indeed had a hand in founding our league) because they wanted a group of 'like-Ivy' schools to play against. H-Y-P is fine playing Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, etc. because they've always played them back when there was no sub-classification. H-Y-P isn't so keen on playing directional state schools or state schools that are not actually named after the state or far flung universities with lesser name recognition (no offense met). Harvard ending the season with Yale sits well with plenty of alums. Harvard ending the season with a road trip to James Madison or Appalachian State doesn't.

#3 - Self Importance. By going to the playoffs, they would then be saying the point of the Ivy League title (and presumed autobid) would be to make the playoffs, not just win the league. Ivy titles are very important to the schools alums. Case in point, the hockey playing Ivy schools play in the ECACHL league. Hockey is not a sport sponsored by the Ivy League. But you sure as hell wouldn't know it! Go to the official Ivy League website (www.ivyleaguesports.com (http://www.ivyleaguesports.com)) and check out the list of sports. Ice Hockey is there. They actually award an "Ivy League Ice Hockey Championship" even though they play in another league! :eek:

There are other excuses given, but IMHO that's the crux of it.

[Pard4Life]

You just sky-rocketed up the 'colgate13's favorite poster list'! Keep it up and you might challenge Grizo for the title! :p

I thought illustrious Ken_Z had the title?

[Ivytalk]

There "CAN" be a change, if and when those three old geezers from Harvard, Yale and Princeton finally kick off.

You talkin' to me?:mad: xlolx ;)

[bulldog10jw]

You talkin' to me?:mad: xlolx ;)

Well, I knew when he said "OLD GEEZERS" that he certainly was not talking about ME! :)

[Ivytalk]

I've asked this question before,but I don't think I've ever gotten a satisfactory response.Why do the powers that be in the Ivy League permit post season participation by its various teams in every sport but football? The hockey season,for example,comprises a five month regular season,with several weeks of playoff involvement,and that's allowed.The same is true for lax,basketball and baseball.The logic escapes [/B[B]]me.

It escapes me, too. Harvard and Princeton still have final exams in January, which is one "tradition" I wish they'd scrap. There's plenty of time for FB players to study.

[Pard4Life]

The article still does not answer the question, "Why do the Ivy presidents still hold their view?" I am assuming that the author and readers assume why, but still, asking "why" repeatedly to the President and other interviewees is a challenge to explain the incompetency of the status quo.

But, it is good that the student assemblies want change. When the old farts go, our generation will be calling the shots... and that will be a yes to the playoffs... maybe even the alums from two decades earlier will favor playoffs.. I don't know.

[colgate13]

I thought illustrious Ken_Z had the title?

No, Ken_Z is my hero. :cool:

[Pard4Life]

I think I've made an honest attempt in some other threads. I'll give it another shot.

Reasons why the Ivy League doesn't permit post-season football play (in order of importance):

#1 - Those at the highest power at these schools are still pissed off they can't be in the same division as current I-A schools. They see themselves (rightly so) as the premier universities of higher learning in the land, therefore, all of their sports should compete at the highest level as well. On their terms of course (i.e. no scholarships, 10 games seasons, etc.). By recognizing I-AA playoffs, they legitimize 'second-tier' status and by god, the Ivy is second tier to no one.

#2 - If they even were to admit they are really I-AA schools, then there is the problem of who they would play in the playoffs. No, it's not about losing because they would win probably 20% of the time like PL schools. It's about the names of schools they would be playing against. Ivy teams have a close relationship with the Patriot teams (and indeed had a hand in founding our league) because they wanted a group of 'like-Ivy' schools to play against. H-Y-P is fine playing Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, etc. because they've always played them back when there was no sub-classification. H-Y-P isn't so keen on playing directional state schools or state schools that are not actually named after the state or far flung universities with lesser name recognition (no offense met). Harvard ending the season with Yale sits well with plenty of alums. Harvard ending the season with a road trip to James Madison or Appalachian State doesn't.

#3 - Self Importance. By going to the playoffs, they would then be saying the point of the Ivy League title (and presumed autobid) would be to make the playoffs, not just win the league. Ivy titles are very important to the schools alums. Case in point, the hockey playing Ivy schools play in the ECACHL league. Hockey is not a sport sponsored by the Ivy League. But you sure as hell wouldn't know it! Go to the official Ivy League website (www.ivyleaguesports.com (http://www.ivyleaguesports.com)) and check out the list of sports. Ice Hockey is there. They actually award an "Ivy League Ice Hockey Championship" even though they play in another league! :eek:

There are other excuses given, but IMHO that's the crux of it.

1 - Totally agree with you on this point. My own belief is that Harvard is still waiting for that Rose Bowl bid. But, if they wanted to compete at I-A, the highest tier possible, then why did they move to I-AA in the first place?

2- Are you basing this more on the sterotypical snooty Ivy alum and elitist theory, or have alums really stated this? Just recalling previous posts, I think you stated some do believe H-Y to be the end all... like carney believing Lehigh as the end all. But, I can't see Columbia caring if they end the season vs. Brown or in the playoffs vs. New Hampshire, or Penn or Cornell for that matter.

3- Good point, I remember seeing that awhile ago and not understanding what they were refering to. Plus, doesn't hockey contradict your arguement in point 2? Harvard could win the league title.. but they might end their season in the playoffs vs. Colorado College or St. Lawrence or Bemidji St... doubt that sits well with the image-concious in Cambridge. Plus, don't Harvard and Dartmouth have to play teams like Clarkson in the regular season?

[colgate13]

1 - Totally agree with you on this point. My own belief is that Harvard is still waiting for that Rose Bowl bid. But, if they wanted to compete at I-A, the highest tier possible, then why did they move to I-AA in the first place?

They didn't move. I-A kicked them out, in 1982 I believe. From 78-81 they were I-A. I think there was a national ranking there too at one point. Technically Colgate was part of this 'kick out' too.


2- Are you basing this more on the sterotypical snooty Ivy alum and elitist theory, or have alums really stated this? Just recalling previous posts, I think you stated some do believe H-Y to be the end all... like carney believing Lehigh as the end all. But, I can't see Columbia caring if they end the season vs. Brown or in the playoffs vs. New Hampshire, or Penn or Cornell for that matter.

I basing this on intitution. Carney is a perfect case in point of this mentality. Plus, the teams you mention don't hold the sway that H-Y-P do. They move this league.


3- Good point, I remember seeing that awhile ago and not understanding what they were refering to. Plus, doesn't hockey contradict your arguement in point 2? Harvard could win the league title.. but they might end their season in the playoffs vs. Colorado College or St. Lawrence or Bemidji St... doubt that sits well with the image-concious in Cambridge. Plus, don't Harvard and Dartmouth have to play teams like Clarkson in the regular season?

Ah, but the Ancient 8 aren't immune to hypocrisy! The exception to my second point is that, all bets are off if the Ivy League could actually win the whole thing. Cornell and Harvard are legit national powers. Plus, you forget that point #1 is off the table. It's easier to swallow playing Bemidji St. when it is playing at the highest level in the land, Division I.

[OL FU]

I think I've made an honest attempt in some other threads. I'll give it another shot.

Reasons why the Ivy League doesn't permit post-season football play (in order of importance):

#1 - Those at the highest power at these schools are still pissed off they can't be in the same division as current I-A schools. They see themselves (rightly so) as the premier universities of higher learning in the land, therefore, all of their sports should compete at the highest level as well. On their terms of course (i.e. no scholarships, 10 games seasons, etc.). By recognizing I-AA playoffs, they legitimize 'second-tier' status and by god, the Ivy is second tier to no one.

#2 - If they even were to admit they are really I-AA schools, then there is the problem of who they would play in the playoffs. No, it's not about losing because they would win probably 20% of the time like PL schools. It's about the names of schools they would be playing against. Ivy teams have a close relationship with the Patriot teams (and indeed had a hand in founding our league) because they wanted a group of 'like-Ivy' schools to play against. H-Y-P is fine playing Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, etc. because they've always played them back when there was no sub-classification. H-Y-P isn't so keen on playing directional state schools or state schools that are not actually named after the state or far flung universities with lesser name recognition (no offense met). Harvard ending the season with Yale sits well with plenty of alums. Harvard ending the season with a road trip to James Madison or Appalachian State doesn't.

#3 - Self Importance. By going to the playoffs, they would then be saying the point of the Ivy League title (and presumed autobid) would be to make the playoffs, not just win the league. Ivy titles are very important to the schools alums. Case in point, the hockey playing Ivy schools play in the ECACHL league. Hockey is not a sport sponsored by the Ivy League. But you sure as hell wouldn't know it! Go to the official Ivy League website (www.ivyleaguesports.com (http://www.ivyleaguesports.com)) and check out the list of sports. Ice Hockey is there. They actually award an "Ivy League Ice Hockey Championship" even though they play in another league! :eek:

There are other excuses given, but IMHO that's the crux of it.

As an outsider looking in, these is the only reasons that make sense. 13, has anybody ever rationally argued against these points with you. To say it is for academic reasons is laughable and the Ivies know that. They just don't want to say that they do not want to be part of I-AA. (my guess is that does not include the athletic departments. just the admins).

No offense to anyone on this board (and I have known lots of wonderful Ivy graduates) but it just does not live up to the snob factor:D :(

These are interesting arguments but let's face the Ivies are not going to be in the playoffs anytime soon.

and neither is the SWAC

[OL FU]

As far as the rational argument, I see Pard4Life is trying. I will now go read what he as to say:)

[Pard4Life]

Frankly, there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around in the I-AA community. It cracks me up to see you all salivate at the prospect of having the Ivys join your precious playoffs while you quickly turn the other cheek and openly discriminate against the PFL or NEC, ( I won’t count the MAAC since they do not have enough members ). Of course you will also scream bloody murder if some obscure writer in the country refers to I-AA as something less than “Division I”, but you will not hesitate to denigrate the teams in the PFL, NEC and MAAC as somehow not worthy of being considered I-AA…. This community and I-AA needs to become much more inclusive by openly encouraging all of the teams in the division to actively participate. It is simply hypocrisy to beg the Ivys to join the playoffs while discriminating against teams in other conferences that you do not deem worthy. Ridiculous!

The PFL, NEC, and MAAC are apart of I-AA. They play teams in the other leagues often.. like the NEC and MAAC always play Patriot teams. But, when it comes to the playoffs, the field needs to be expanded if the PFL and NEC are to be included in the playoffs. The MAAC simply does not have enough of teams. The truth is that when Monmouth, the best team in the NEC, plays a game at Lehigh, a respectable I-AA power who finished 3rd in the their league, can't stay in the entire game, then what does that say about NEC champion Monmouth holding their own against #1 or #2 nationally UNH or ASU? A PFL or NEC bid would take away a bid from a team with a strong resume who did not win their league.. like Richmond, Furman, or E. Washington. Cal Poly is a good example.. they are not in an auto-bid conference.. but they recruited talent and played a tough schedule.. and won their games.

However, the NEC awarding scholarships is a step in the right direction. If they award a few more and show they are competitive, they are definetely entitled to an auto-bid.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Like everyone else here, I am disappionted but not surprised. Looking more closely at the article the hypocrisy just simply oozes off the page:


The second adjustment, effective during the 2006-07 season, changes the way certain basketball contests are counted toward the maximum number of 28 per year allowed by the Ivy League. Certain multi-game events, such as NCAA-exempt invitational tournaments in which an Ivy team wants to play, will now be counted as one contest instead of each individual game counting as a separate one. Penn will begin its 2006-07 season with such a tournament, the Black Coaches Invitational hosted by Syracuse.

The stodgy Ivy League is ready to throw academic principles out the window if, oh, Penn's big-money basketball program is invited for a nice payday up at Syracuse. Yet football, that's another story.

I don't think Ivy presidents would listen to me, but if they honestly think that gunning for the playoffs would ruin their classic rivalries should look more closely at Lehigh/Lafayette for inspiration. Twenty years ago, with "nothing but pride" to play for, Lehigh/Lafayette had devolved into postgame (and sometimes in-game) riots and excuses to binge drink. You see much of this same behavior at Harvard/Yale, and undoubtedly at other Ivy rivalry games.

When you're playing for something larger (like the I-AA playoffs), something funny happens. There's a lot less criminal behavior since the focus isn't on the bad behavior, it's about titles and I-AA playoffs. Since the late 1990s, there haven't been postgame riots. I think the I-AA playoffs have, in some ways, far from killed the rivalry - it saved the rivalry.

[Pard4Life]

They didn't move. I-A kicked them out, in 1982 I believe. From 78-81 they were I-A. I think there was a national ranking there too at one point. Technically Colgate was part of this 'kick out' too.



I basing this on intitution. Carney is a perfect case in point of this mentality. Plus, the teams you mention don't hold the sway that H-Y-P do. They move this league.



Ah, but the Ancient 8 aren't immune to hypocrisy! The exception to my second point is that, all bets are off if the Ivy League could actually win the whole thing. Cornell and Harvard are legit national powers. Plus, you forget that point #1 is off the table. It's easier to swallow playing Bemidji St. when it is playing at the highest level in the land, Division I.

Oh.. right.. :cool:

[Pard4Life]

Like everyone else here, I am disappionted but not surprised. Looking more closely at the article the hypocrisy just simply oozes off the page:



The stodgy Ivy League is ready to throw academic principles out the window if, oh, Penn's big-money basketball program is invited for a nice payday up at Syracuse. Yet football, that's another story.

I don't think Ivy presidents would listen to me, but if they honestly think that gunning for the playoffs would ruin their classic rivalries should look more closely at Lehigh/Lafayette for inspiration. Twenty years ago, with "nothing but pride" to play for, Lehigh/Lafayette had devolved into postgame (and sometimes in-game) riots and excuses to binge drink. You see much of this same behavior at Harvard/Yale, and undoubtedly at other Ivy rivalry games.

When you're playing for something larger (like the I-AA playoffs), something funny happens. There's a lot less criminal behavior since the focus isn't on the bad behavior, it's about titles and I-AA playoffs. Since the late 1990s, there haven't been postgame riots. I think the I-AA playoffs have, in some ways, far from killed the rivalry - it saved the rivalry.

Excellent point... I can see that sentiment reflected in the stands.. instead of preparing to burn down South Mountain, fighting cops, and storming the field for mayhem.. the students/fans are more focused on winning the league and getting an invite.. i.e. last year. Even in 2004 and 2005.. the fans were more interested in mobbing the players and trophy at mid-field. One or two morons went for the goalposts, but their faces were disappointed when nobody was following them and a single adminstrator shooed him off. I think 2002 is an exception and few and far between nowadays.. it ended they tyrannical 7-year Lehigh reign. And it was I think the first season since 1997.. 2nd ever.. the rivalry did not have a team competitng for a PL title or playoff bid.

And frankly... I like the idea of beating an archrival for a coveted and rare playoff spots... it's a better way of showing you are the better shcool than rioting and burning.

[colgate13]

As an outsider looking in, these is the only reasons that make sense. 13, has anybody ever rationally argued against these points with you. To say it is for academic reasons is laughable and the Ivies know that. They just don't want to say that they do not want to be part of I-AA. (my guess is that does not include the athletic departments. just the admins).

Most Ivy folks I know aren't that influential, and would agree with me! Now, I'd love to have an afternoon with the presidents and BOTs and have this discussion, but they haven't been answering my phone calls. :( xlolx

[Mr. C]

Frankly, there is plenty of hypocrisy to go around in the I-AA community. It cracks me up to see you all salivate at the prospect of having the Ivys join your precious playoffs while you quickly turn the other cheek and openly discriminate against the PFL or NEC, ( I won’t count the MAAC since they do not have enough members ). Of course you will also scream bloody murder if some obscure writer in the country refers to I-AA as something less than “Division I”, but you will not hesitate to denigrate the teams in the PFL, NEC and MAAC as somehow not worthy of being considered I-AA…. This community and I-AA needs to become much more inclusive by openly encouraging all of the teams in the division to actively participate. It is simply hypocrisy to beg the Ivys to join the playoffs while discriminating against teams in other conferences that you do not deem worthy. Ridiculous!
No one was denigrating the PFL, NEC, or MAAC in this thread. If Dayton, or one of those other schools from those three leagues play a playoff-caliber schedule and win enough games, they are eligible for the playoffs, would be considered and would be able to play in them with an at-large bid. Unfortunately, a team from the Ivy League can go undefeated like Harvard did in 2004, be ranked in the top 10 and still not have the opportunity to play in the postseason. Why do you have to continually vent this stuff? Most of us just want to see the best 16 teams playing in the playoffs each year. We want to see a team from the Ivy League, or the SWAC have a chance to play, if they are one of those top 16 teams. I know I feel the same way about schools from the PFL, the NEC and the MAAC, and the Big South too. If you are good enough, I want you in the playoffs. How is that discriminating against you? How is that hypocritical. We're not necessarily talking about auto bids here, just the chance for ALL I-AA to be eligible for the playoffs.

[GannonFan]

No one was denigrating the PFL, NEC, or MAAC in this thread. If Dayton, or one of those other schools from those three leagues play a playoff-caliber schedule and win enough games, they are eligible for the playoffs, would be considered and would be able to play in them with an at-large bid. Unfortunately, a team from the Ivy League can go undefeated like Harvard did in 2004, be ranked in the top 10 and still not have the opportunity to play in the postseason. Why do you have to continually vent this stuff? Most of us just want to see the best 16 teams playing in the playoffs each year. We want to see a team from the Ivy League, or the SWAC have a chance to play, if they are one of those top 16 teams. I know I feel the same way about schools from the PFL, the NEC and the MAAC, and the Big South too. If you are good enough, I want you in the playoffs. How is that discriminating against you? How is that hypocritical. We're not necessarily talking about auto bids here, just the chance for ALL I-AA to be eligible for the playoffs.

Amen - silly post for this thread. Play a decent schedule, win against most of it, and you're in. That goes for anybody who is eligible for the playoffs, and right now the only ones not eligible are the Ivy League and a handful of SWAC teams. It's all about getting the best teams in. Sheesh.

[*****]

Ivy Presidential Playoff Problem
Michael R. James, I-AA.org columnist
August 1, 2005

In 2004, nine showed off their skills in the battle for I-AA's ultimate prize. For the two years prior to that, the number was the same.

Each season since 2002, nine of the GPI's top-10 teams have advanced to the I-AA playoffs, while one has stayed home.

And you can't blame this situation on the selection committee.

The missing pieces of the postseason puzzle over the past three years have been the Ivy champions-Penn in 2002 and 2003, and Harvard in 2004.

The fate of those three powerhouses, which have gone a combined 29-1 over the past three seasons, was decided 51 years ago, when the eight presidents of the Ivy institutions decided to ban postseason play for football as part of the founding charter of the league. ...

Read it all here: http://www.i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=79689

[Cap'n Cat]

Ivy League should be D-II anyway....

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[*****]

Ivy Presidential Playoff Problem...BTW, that article first appeared in the I-AA.org Magazine 2005 Fall Preview book.

[UAalum72]

Amen - silly post for this thread. Play a decent schedule, win against most of it, and you're in. That goes for anybody who is eligible for the playoffs, and right now the only ones not eligible are the Ivy League and a handful of SWAC teams. It's all about getting the best teams in. Sheesh.
Not true at all. Up to eight teams could possibly go like 0-4 non-conference, win their conference with a 5-2 record, and go to the playoffs.

[*****]

Ivy League should be D-II anyway...So top 10 I-AA squads should be D-II... :rolleyes: xcoffeex : smh :

[DUPFLFan]

If Dayton, or one of those other schools from those three leagues play a playoff-caliber schedule and win enough games, they are eligible for the playoffs, would be considered and would be able to play in them with an at-large bid.

I guess I just don't understand...:eyebrow:

From San Diego's web site. Looks like to me that San Diego can compete with the Ivy's. Based on the score from the Drake game, I would guess that they would too... (Note that I didn't say win the conference, but have very good competition)


09/17/05 Yale at San Diego, San Diego won 17-14
09/24/05 Princeton vs San Diego at Princeton, San Diego lost 20-17
10/22/05 Drake at San Diego San Diego won 31-26


So to me, it seems like the PFL can compete with the Ivy's. But most of the posters seem to think that we play a poor schedule and that we would get killed in the playoffs.

So why do you want the Ivy's in the playoffs? Wouldn't they get killed too?

Bottom line is that there is a perception here that Ivy football is superior and that the other mid majors are inferior. I don't believe that this is true.

[OL FU]

I guess I just don't understand...:eyebrow:

From San Diego's web site. Looks like to me that San Diego can compete with the Ivy's. Based on the score from the Drake game, I would guess that they would too... (Note that I didn't say win the conference, but have very good competition)


09/17/05 Yale at San Diego, San Diego won 17-14
09/24/05 Princeton vs San Diego at Princeton, San Diego lost 20-17
10/22/05 Drake at San Diego San Diego won 31-26


So to me, it seems like the PFL can compete with the Ivy's. But most of the posters seem to think that we play a poor schedule and that we would get killed in the playoffs.

So why do you want the Ivy's in the playoffs? Wouldn't they get killed too?

I don't want the Ivies in the Playoffs
I don't want San Diego in the Playoffs
I don't want Drake in the Playoffs


:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:

:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o

just kidding:smiley_wi

[Go...gate]

I think this is more about Harvard and Yale. It is my understanding that PU Prex Shirley Tilghman and AD Gary Walters actually want to be in the play-offs, though they remain opposed to a post-season BB tourney. Dartmouth is also opposed to playoff participation.

[OL FU]

I think this is more about Harvard and Yale. It is my understanding that PU Prex Shirley Tilghman and AD Gary Walters actually want to be in the play-offs, though they remain opposed to a post-season BB tourney. Dartmouth is also opposed to playoff participation.

:rolleyes: And I am worried about it snowing on tomorrow's cookout.

[GannonFan]

Not true at all. Up to eight teams could possibly go like 0-4 non-conference, win their conference with a 5-2 record, and go to the playoffs.

And the other 8 slots would still be open to anyone else regardless. Again, if you play a good schedule, and win against most of it, you too could have one of these 8 at large spots. Teams without autobids have been doing it for 27 some years now, hard to understand why you think it's so impossible now.

[UAalum72]

hard to understand why you think it's so impossible now.
Hard to understand why you don't see that a requirement is imposed on one conference champion that is not imposed on another conference champion.

[*****]

Notice how PFL and NEC members post in the Ivy thread trying to take it over? No one mentioned them at all but they cannot help themselves.

[*****]

... So to me, it seems like the PFL can compete with the Ivy's... So why do you want the Ivy's in the playoffs?...No one mentioned the PFL, they are already playoff eligible. This thread is about a conference that is not.

[GannonFan]

Hard to understand why you don't see that a requirement is imposed on one conference champion that is not imposed on another conference champion.

And the number of times a conference champion has snuck in like you laid out is so small that I do have a hard time of understanding what it's pertinent. What - a team who wouldn't have made it into the playoffs gets in by snaring the autobid - has that happened more than a handful of times in almost 30 years of I-AA? If it's more than 5 I would be surpised - and even then, that's 5 out of roughly 384 playoff teams (just guessing) over that time period. Not a big deal when it's about a 1% chance. Yes, your conference champion doesn't have that luxury - whoop dee do. That luxury is rarely taken advantage of so playoff access for all conferences (except the Ivy) is still alive and well.

[Mr. C]

And the other 8 slots would still be open to anyone else regardless. Again, if you play a good schedule, and win against most of it, you too could have one of these 8 at large spots. Teams without autobids have been doing it for 27 some years now, hard to understand why you think it's so impossible now.
You probably articulated the point I was trying to make in a much better way than I did. I don't care what conference you are from, I just want all I-AA teams to be able to compete for a title. If you take care of business against a tough schedule, people will know that you deserve to be in the playoffs.

[DetroitFlyer]

As far as I know, the Ivy League is playoff eligible. They simply choose not to participate in the I-AA playoffs. Try again!

[*****]

As far as I know, the Ivy League is playoff eligible. They simply choose not to participate in the I-AA playoffs. Try again!That's what I meant. Their conference presidents prevent them from participating (posted many times in this thread already). Hope that made you feel good, you telling me to "try again"!

[aceinthehole]

Ralph, please ... I can't respond to any of your comments

Other than history and academics, please explain why the Ivy League is so important to the I-AA playoffs.

Here' are some fact to chew on from last season's top 3 Ivy finishers:

Brown - best OOC win 45-35 over URI.
Harvard - best OOC win 24-17 at Lafayette.
Princeton - bets OOC win 23-21 at Lafayette, only beat San Deigo by 3

These wins are not so impressive are they?

The fact is the Ivy beat up on the bottom tier of the PL, just as some NEC and PFL schools can do. Where is the aggressive scheduleing for the Ivy? Please tell me why their conference schedule makes up for the lack of quality OOC wins?


Here is some more results:

Georgetown = lost to Brown (34-3) and lost to Davidson (10-3)
Fordham = lost to Brown (37-14) and also lost to Albany (41-0)
Lehigh = beat Harvard (49-24), and beat Monmouth (54-26)

See the Ivy has not "scheduled and won games" as you ask of the NEC and PFL.

If you all can't see the double standard you have for "the old boys network" then you're blind. If you support an auto bid for the Ivy, you have no good reason to deny the NEC.

[bulldog10jw]

Brown - best OOC win 45-35 over URI.
Harvard - best OOC win 24-17 at Lafayette.
Princeton - bets OOC win 23-21 at Lafayette, only beat San Deigo by 3



Wasn't Lafayette a PLAYOFF team. Makes those wins look pretty good to me.

[Pard4Life]

The Ivies routinely place players on the Buchanan and Payton Watch Lists. And just look at Harvard... who in IAA would want to face Clifford Dawon? And when they was there, Neil Rose, or Ryan Fitzpatrick?

Fitzpatrick started a game in the NFL.. and threw for 330yards... has a mid-major player done that recently?

The Ivy League has the credibility and skill to compete.

[Pard4Life]

Wasn't Lafayette a PLAYOFF team. Makes those wins look pretty good to me.

Exactly.. and we beat second round participant Richmond.

[DUPFLFan]

The Ivy League has the credibility and skill to compete.

Perception is reality, I guess:rolleyes:

[DUPFLFan]

No one mentioned them at all but they cannot help themselves.

Sorry Ralph, we can't help ourselves.:rotateh:

Just trying to understand the difference....

[*****]

Ralph, please ... I can't respond to any of your comments... If you all can't see the double standard you have for "the old boys network" then you're blind...Wow, kinda wild with the accusations huh, ace? I didn't say anything you attributed to me. Seems like the blindness is in the eye of the accuser. I want the Ivy teams to be in the playoff hunt like I want other teams to be there. Why you have to post this nonsense here is beyond my comprehension. Why don't you want them there?

[*****]

Perception is reality, I guess:rolleyes:and reality is beyond belief to some... :nod:

[aceinthehole]

Wasn't Lafayette a PLAYOFF team. Makes those wins look pretty good to me.

Yes, but here's where the "double standards" we in the mid-major see from many on this board.

Princeton wins by 2 over Lafayette and by just 3 over San Diego.
CCSU wins by 1 over Colgate and by 1 and 2 over Albany and Monmouth respectively.

So are you saying, in general Princeton and CCSU were about equal last seaon? Or was CCSU win a big fluke and an upset over a playoff team, while the Tigers win over the Lafayeette was so well deserved?

Also, Monmouth played just as well against Lehigh as Harvard did, right? Or Albany beat Fordham by more than Brown did! Do you all see my point. No matter what we say or do, someone has an excuse, and I'm just tired of hearing it.

---
Again, I'm am not doubting the history or talent of the Ivy League (of course I have a lot of respect for it), but some people seem to think the only way you earn respect in I-AA is if you beat Delaware or the A-10 champs.

My bigger point here is the Ivy plays 3 OOC games a year and its usually against PL or mid-major teams. So what makes you guys so strong? Why must the NEC play games against defending National Champs and I-AA finalists to gain just an slim bit of notice?

[aceinthehole]

Wow, kinda wild with the accusations huh, ace? I didn't say anything you attributed to me. Seems like the blindness is in the eye of the accuser. I want the Ivy teams to be in the playoff hunt like I want other teams to be there. Why you have to post this nonsense here is beyond my comprehension. Why don't you want them there?

No Ralph, I was just told that if I don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all. So that's what I was doing - biting my tounge.

Its not an accusation about anything. I just don't agree with much of what you post, and that is simply my opinion. Sorry.

[*****]

... I just don't agree with much of what you post, and that is simply my opinion. Sorry.Since much of what I post is fact then you just don't agree? Sorry, there seems to be some avoidance going on with you. You posted a bunch of stuff that I didn't say and attributed it to me. Is this a smear campaign? It has been tried and failed before against me. I post under my own name so that baseless smear stuff doesn't work. : smh :

[aceinthehole]

Since much of what I post is fact then you just don't agree? Sorry, there seems to be some avoidance going on with you. You posted a bunch of stuff that I didn't say and attributed it to me. Is this a smear campaign? It has been tried and failed before against me. I post under my own name so that baseless smear stuff doesn't work. : smh :


Please, what are you Nixon? Smear campaign? Get a grip!

My problem is simple. You promote I-AA football as the true championsip level division and demand proper usage of nomanclature, roman numerals, etc .. yet you also promote and encourage further divsion within this classification by supporting the idea that "mid-majors" are inferior becasue of their lack of schollys.

-----
In the following post you cite how a newly upgraded Central Arkansas team is just known as I-AA:
http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?p=224194&highlight=Division#post224194

Then the following discussion with a CCU fan, you refuse to include mid-majors in your ratio of playoff teams. http://www.anygivensaturday.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5857&page=9&highlight=playoffs

Why? If mid-majors are not restricted from the playoffs (prior to the Gridiorn Classic), why do you focus on unrestricted equivs only? This is my problem, you can't have it both ways. We are either in or out. Make up your mind.
----

I'm not going to continue with this topic with you, as I think we both have our own thoughts on the subject and are going to stick to them. Thanks.

[Pard4Life]

Yes, but here's where the "double standards" we in the mid-major see from many on this board.

Princeton wins by 2 over Lafayette and by just 3 over San Diego.
CCSU wins by 1 over Colgate and by 1 and 2 over Albany and Monmouth respectively.

So are you saying, in general Princeton and CCSU were about equal last seaon? Or was CCSU win a big fluke and an upset over a playoff team, while the Tigers win over the Lafayeette was so well deserved?

Also, Monmouth played just as well against Lehigh as Harvard did, right? Or Albany beat Fordham by more than Brown did! Do you all see my point. No matter what we say or do, someone has an excuse, and I'm just tired of hearing it.

---
Again, I'm am not doubting the history or talent of the Ivy League (of course I have a lot of respect for it), but some people seem to think the only way you earn respect in I-AA is if you beat Delaware or the A-10 champs.

My bigger point here is the Ivy plays 3 OOC games a year and its usually against PL or mid-major teams. So what makes you guys so strong? Why must the NEC play games against defending National Champs and I-AA finalists to gain just an slim bit of notice?

CCSU win over Colgate was a fluke.. 60 yards in 18 seconds or smoething like that? As 13 has said.. play the game 100 times, Colgate wins about 95 times.

We are horrible against Princeton.. only three wins since 1884. Regardless, they played well and we did not.. Princeton is not even a power Ivy like Harvard or Penn, and they are wildly inconsistent over the past decade. If San Diego beat Penn or Harvard that is something to note.

No... Monmouth didn't play as well as Harvard vs. Lehigh.. Lehigh did not show up in the first half and Monmouth held their own... making it a close game in the first half. Then when Lehigh came out and raised their game, Monmouth did not.. that's where good teams are seperated. Harvard was on a 15+ winning streak in their loss. That was a close game except rapid Lehigh scoring outburts late in the game.

Extremely poor example with Fordham... they were a mess at the end of the year. You cite that example, but ignore they fact CCSU was murdered by Rhode Island 56-10 in week two and Fordham kept it within two TDs their first game.

And yes you are right... you do have to beat Delawre or an A10 team to get respect... that's how the Patriot League did it! And the Ivy League has the respect because their competitve level is there. Like I said earlier, and you seemed to conveniently to ignore... look at the Walter Payton nominees each year and Buchanan Award winners... there were several Ivy Leaguers on the list... that means the quality of play is there.. they have to be getting acknowleged by people nationally. Look at Fitzpatrick.. NFL QB.. 300 yrds in a game. You have the Seattle LB from Harvard... MVP of their defense..

The Ivy has the respect because of their history... AND the quality of their players.. and the overall quality of the teams... teh quality of their teams is a result of their players. This is shown against high quality Patriot League teams i.e. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate. CCSU did beat Colgate.. that was a fluke as noted.

And another note... we blew out Marist two years in a row.. and Marist beats you by 11... how can you earn respect like that? Devlop some consistency first. Maybe if an NEC team goes 11-0 for three straight years, beats some big teams.. they yeah, respect is deserved. We have not seen that though. You have to play those big teams and get noticed because the NEC has no history or reputation.

The scholarship decision is in the right direction. Improve the quality of teams, and an auto-bid could follow. Win there.. you get respect. End of story.

[*****]

... Smear campaign? Get a grip!Yeah, get a grip because you are promoting a personal smear campaign against me and it is wrong.
My problem is simple. You promote I-AA football as the true championsip level division and demand proper usage of nomanclature, roman numerals, etc .. yet you also promote and encourage further divsion within this classification by supporting the idea that "mid-majors" are inferior becasue of their lack of schollys.That's a smear and a bald-faced lie. Your links certainly prove my assertion and disprove your's.
I'm not going to continue with this topic with you, as I think we both have our own thoughts on the subject and are going to stick to them. Thanks.No thanks. You are not going to continue because you have no basis for your smear on me. I have always maintained and still do that all I-AA is playoff eligible and should be considered accordingly. If you think that because I am national media and I won't respond then you are wrong. I embrace the web as a medium to lessen the distance between teams, players, media and fans so I don't put up with false allegations and smear campaigns. I'll set you straight and hope that you'll set me straight. On this topic you are wrong.

[aceinthehole]

And yes you are right... you do have to beat Delawre or an A10 team to get respect... that's how the Patriot League did it! And the Ivy League has the respect because their competitve level is there.

This is the problem. The "standard" so many people want the younger and growing NEC teams to achive is a feat, that is RARELY done by the Ivy or PL in RECENT memory. (Deaware fans will love this)

Lafayette hasn't beaten Delaware since 1960, an 11 game losing streak.
Colgate is 0-5 all time vs. UD. CU scored more than 2 TDs in a game only once!
Lehigh has 1 win vs the Hens in their last 9 tries!
Bucknell is 1-4 vs. Delaware since 1982 and have lost 10 out of the last 11 games played.

Want more?

Since 1981 the Ivy League is 0-4 vs Delaware (2 losses each for Penn and Princeton.)

How about a few other A-10 teams?

Lafayette is 2-8 all time vs. Maine and 1-5 vs. UNH, and 0-3 vs. URI.
Colgate is 1-4 all time vs. UNH and is 2-1 vs. Umass since 2003.

Wow! Harvard is 11-0 vs. Maine, but all games were played in Cambridge before 1920!

Yale won 1 game out of the last 10 played against I-AA UConn.


Now yes this is just a quick sample, but the point is these are not real impressive stats when talking about the PL and Ivy vs. the A-10.

Again, I have all the respect in the world for Ivy football. I mean Walter Camp (born in New Britain and Yale Alumn) invented the modern game! No doubt they have an important spot in the football landsacpe. But its been years since the Ivys had the power and influence on the game.

The NEC is now competeing at the I-AA level and is capable of winning against Ivy and PL oppnents. Call it what you want evry time - a fluke, lucky, an upset, bad PL and Ivy teams - fine.

The fact is "mid-majors" can name more than just 1 win vs. the PL and Ivy over the past few sesons and that is a big start. The fact you say a win vs. a playoff team doesn't count 'cus we don't have schollys is fine, if you want. Just don't expect everyone to listen.

[*****]

Still want the Ivy League teams to have a chance at the playoffs like all other I-AA does. They are the only ones who are forbidden the chance.

[bonarae]

Still the usual answer from them... I can't go over this...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This is the problem. The "standard" so many people want the younger and growing NEC teams to achive is a feat, that is RARELY done by the Ivy or PL in RECENT memory.
...

The NEC is now competeing at the I-AA level and is capable of winning against Ivy and PL oppnents. Call it what you want every time - a fluke, lucky, an upset, bad PL and Ivy teams - fine.

The fact is "mid-majors" can name more than just 1 win vs. the PL and Ivy over the past few sesons and that is a big start. The fact you say a win vs. a playoff team doesn't count 'cus we don't have schollys is fine, if you want. Just don't expect everyone to listen.

You've got some real cherry-picked intelligence there. Why don't we net this out a little bit more:

How many Patriot League wins over OOC ranked I-AA teams have there been in the past five years? I can't name them all, but in 2005 Lafayette beat Richmond, Lehigh beat Harvard and Colgate beat UMass. 2003 saw Colgate beat ranked Florida Atlantic, Western Illinois, and UMass again, not to mention I-A Buffalo. There are plenty of others, but my point is made. In as far back as I can remember, a NEC team has only beaten a ranked team ONCE... over Colgate last year.

You want Ivy? OK, what about Harvard's demolishing of Lafayette (Patriot League co-champs) in 2004 and 2005? Add to that their beating of Northeastern in 2004? Brown beat Rhode Island in 2004 and 2005.

What's that? You're not impressed by Brown beating a lower-echelon team in the A-10? Well, CCSU couldn't beat them in two tries in the past two years, losing by a combined score of 95-17. Let's take another elite program in Albany - could they beat Brown? Sorry, they lost by a combined score of 56-10. Albany couldn't also beat Lehigh, losing 44-14.

Matter of fact, I could find 0 NEC wins lifetime over the Ivy League. San Diego holds the only two wins over Ivy teams, both over Yale.

The wins count, and I take nothing away from the NEC who is worthy of attention. Beating Colgate was a shockwave all though I-AA. Beating multiple Patriot opponents was a fine start, as you said. Going from need-based aid to limited schollies should only make you guys even better. But you've got a while before you catch the Patriot League or Ivy League. I think if you can keep it up over the next 2-3 years you'll definitely have a good case. But the Ivy has already made its case. They could compete right now.

[MU Alum]

CCSU win over Colgate was a fluke.. 60 yards in 18 seconds or smoething like that? As 13 has said.. play the game 100 times, Colgate wins about 95 times.

We are horrible against Princeton.. only three wins since 1884. . If San Diego beat Penn or Harvard that is something to note.

No... Monmouth didn't play as well as Harvard vs. Lehigh.. Lehigh did not show up in the first half and Monmouth held their own... making it a close game in the first half. Then when Lehigh came out and raised their game, Monmouth did not.. that's where good teams are seperated. Harvard was on a 15+ winning streak in their loss. That was a close game except rapid Lehigh scoring outburts late in the game.

Extremely poor example with Fordham...
look at the Walter Payton nominees each year and Buchanan Award winners... there were several Ivy Leaguers on the list... that means the quality of play is there.. they have to be getting acknowleged by people nationally. Look at Fitzpatrick.. NFL QB.. 300 yrds in a game. You have the Seattle LB from Harvard... MVP of their defense..

The Ivy has the respect because of their history... AND the quality of their players.. and the overall quality of the teams... teh quality of their teams is a result of their players. This is shown against high quality Patriot League teams i.e. Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate. CCSU did beat Colgate.. that was a fluke as noted.

And another note... we blew out Marist two years in a row.. and Marist beats you by 11... how can you earn respect like that? . You have to play those big teams and get noticed because the NEC has no history or reputation.

The scholarship decision is in the right direction. Improve the quality of teams, and an auto-bid could follow. Win there.. you get respect. End of story.

It seems like you have an excuse for every game the NEC played well against the Patriot league teams last year, Lehigh played poor in the first half( look at the stats for the MU- Lehigh then Harvard-Lehigh game and look at the scores MU was up after the first, down 24-17 at half, and played poor the second half & then honestly tell me the games werent similar, Lehigh just went on a "rapid scoring outburst late in the game"), Colgate would win 99% of the time, Lafayette struggles against Princeton, Fordham is better than 41-7, San Diego was lucky. The NEC and PFL teams are getting better and can compete with the Patriots and Ivies it seems. It seems like Ace has posted some pretty good facts that no one has really responded to, but to say "Here are the mid-majors whining again". Just take a look at it and recognize the gaps are closing, its called progress and that is good for I-AA football, maybe just not for your conference.

As for the talent and quality of player argument, i think that is biased as well, because the best players in the NEC and Pioneer are not given the respect they deserve and are left off the Payton and Buchanon lists. You cannot tell me that Miles Austin did not deserve to be on the Payton list last year, All the kid did was have over 1,000 yards & 11 TD's recieving in basically 6 games due to injury and was dominant, (now on the Cowboys). I also believe Colin Disch from Albany is a legitamate Buchanon guy as is the RB from Drake. The talent does not get recognized as it should.
NEC schools are scheduling tough again this season, Albany plays its brutal OOC schedule, Monmouth plays Fordham, Colgate, and Morgan State OOC, CCSU plays Georgia Southern, Sacred Heart plays Lafayette, St. Francis plays Del. State, SBU plays Hofstra & New Hampshire.

[lambertjr]

Ivy Conf. IS in my playoff.(Harvard)
However, they lost in the 1st rnd to Dayton.

[bulldog10jw]

Matter of fact, I could find 0 NEC wins lifetime over the Ivy League. San Diego holds the only two wins over Ivy teams, both over Yale.



Yale has played San Diego 3 times. USD has won ONCE.

1999 Yale 17 USD 6
2002 Yale 49 USD 14
2005 USD 17 Yale 14

[aceinthehole]

Yale has played San Diego 3 times. USD has won ONCE.

1999 Yale 17 USD 6
2002 Yale 49 USD 14
2005 USD 17 Yale 14

I'd argue 1 for 3 isn't so bad. Much better than 1 for last 10 (Yale vs. UConn). :)

Again, the point is the "mid-majors" do not have a large sample of games vs. some I-AA programs to really measure against, but their performance to date is not as bad as some might say.

Please, I'm not trying to pick on Yale (or anyone), this is not meant to be a smack thread. I really like the PL and Ivy programs and would like to see more "mid-majors", especially my team, play more games vs. the Ivy, PL, A-10, and others.

But we can agree that in recent years, the majority of Ivys play their OOC games vs. PL teams and have not faired well against the A-10.

Please name all the Ivy victories over the A-10 since the 2000 season.

Also, what are the chances Yale would ever play Central Connecticut down at the Bowl? I know, none! The fact is if CCSU won just 1 game, all hell would break loose in New Haven. The 3 games vs. USD and (2 others vs Dayton) prove Yale is willing to schedule a "mid-major," so why not CCSU?

All-time Ivy vs. NEC
Brown 2-0 vs. Albany (2003,2004)
Cornell 1-0 vs. Wagner (1999)
IVY 3 - NEC 0

Let's see all the Ivys schedule more NEC teams, so we have some games to talk about xprost2x

[bulldog10jw]

I'd argue 1 for 3 isn't so bad. Much better than 1 for last 10 (Yale vs. UConn). :)






Yale hasn't played UConn in 8 years. Is it really relavant anymore?

[aceinthehole]

Yale hasn't played UConn in 10 years. Is it really relavant anymore?

Sorry, you're right. Again, I'm not picking on Yale, so

Ivy's last win vs. A-10 (by team)
2005: Brown vs URI
2004: Harvard vs. Northeastern
1994: Yale vs. UConn
1993: Cornell vs Richmond
1980: Princeton vs. Maine
1971: Dartmouth vs. UMass
1944: Penn vs. William and Mary
1942: Columbia at Maine

Now I really know why they call them the "Ancient Eight" So my question is really how relavant is the Ivy to the A-10 anymore?

[JohnStOnge]

Well, their loss. Other schools benefit as a result of their stupidity, in terms of available playoff spots and recruiting. A lot of players choose to play in a I-AA playoff conference over the Ivies, even with their tremendous reputations academically. Some players pick an Ivy school over a I-A, too, but playoff eligibility would really boost their depth.

Somebody may already have said this...I haven't read all the posts...but I think it's I-AAs loss. I think having the Ivy League being a real part of the I-AA family and in the tournament would lead to more exposure as I think Ivy League schools have an influencial following and high profiles.

[aceinthehole]

Somebody may already have said this...I haven't read all the posts...but I think it's I-AAs loss. I think having the Ivy League being a real part of the I-AA family and in the tournament would lead to more exposure as I think Ivy League schools have an influencial following and high profiles.

I agree too! I think the Ivy champ should be a part of the I-AA playoffs. It would enhance the playoffs greatly. Their history and profile is something that would make the playoffs even better.

I just don't understand how some can lobby and support inclusion one conference (Ivy), yet set subjective criteria, standards, qualifications, or excuses to exclude another willing participant (NEC).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sorry, you're right. Again, I'm not picking on Yale, so

Ivy's last win vs. A-10 (by team)
2005: Brown vs URI
2004: Harvard vs. Northeastern
1994: Yale vs. UConn
1993: Cornell vs Richmond
1980: Princeton vs. Maine



These are 5 more wins than the NEC have over the A-10, *or* over the Patriot/Ivy/A-10 overall. Next.

[UAalum72]

These are 5 more wins than the NEC have over the A-10, *or* over the Patriot/Ivy/A-10 overall. Next.
????

2005
CCSU over Colgate
Stony Brook over Bucknell
Stony Brook over Georgetown
Albany over Fordham

2004
Monmouth over Georgetown

2003
Monmouth over Georgetown

2001
Albany over Towson

You got a lotta nerve lumping the Patriot in with those other leagues

[aceinthehole]

????

2005
CCSU over Colgate
Stony Brook over Bucknell
Stony Brook over Georgetown
Albany over Fordham

2004
Monmouth over Georgetown

2003
Monmouth over Georgetown

2001
Albany over Towson (PL)

You got a lotta nerve lumping the Patriot in with those other leagues

Nice UA72, but you also forgot:

2001
Monmouth over Towson (PL)

---
And if we want to go back a little further ...

1996
Robert Morris (NEC) over Towson*
First year of NEC

1995
Wagner (I-AA Ind) over Towson*

*Note: Towson was I-AA Independent and joined the PL in 1997.

1981
CCSU (D II) over Lafayette#

#Note: Lafayette was I-AA Independent and joined the PL in 1986.

[*****]

This thread has been split... see the AQs for other conferences thread.

[blukeys]

This is the problem. The "standard" so many people want the younger and growing NEC teams to achive is a feat, that is RARELY done by the Ivy or PL in RECENT memory. (Deaware fans will love this)

Lafayette hasn't beaten Delaware since 1960, an 11 game losing streak.
Colgate is 0-5 all time vs. UD. CU scored more than 2 TDs in a game only once!
Lehigh has 1 win vs the Hens in their last 9 tries!
Bucknell is 1-4 vs. Delaware since 1982 and have lost 10 out of the last 11 games played.

Want more?

Since 1981 the Ivy League is 0-4 vs Delaware (2 losses each for Penn and Princeton.)

How about a few other A-10 teams?

Lafayette is 2-8 all time vs. Maine and 1-5 vs. UNH, and 0-3 vs. URI.
Colgate is 1-4 all time vs. UNH and is 2-1 vs. Umass since 2003.

Wow! Harvard is 11-0 vs. Maine, but all games were played in Cambridge before 1920!

Yale won 1 game out of the last 10 played against I-AA UConn.


Now yes this is just a quick sample, but the point is these are not real impressive stats when talking about the PL and Ivy vs. the A-10.





I have to admit I enjoyed reading this post. Especially, the Lehigh part as I am sure most Lehigh fans were gagging!!!!xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

But You miss the essential point. While I personally am in favor of the Ivies choosing to be in the playoffs I am in no way endorsing that they get an auto bid.

Would Ivy participation be a benefit to I-AA?? Yes this would raise our profile immensely.

Should the Ivies be granted a conference auto bid as a condition of their decision to participate in the playoffs? I offer an unconditional NOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
The Ivies should apply as all other conferences do for an auto bid. Personally, I would rather see the GWFC or the Big South get an auto bid before the Ivies (Yes I know both conferences need more participants but both are more competitive)

By the way in an application for an auto bid, both the Ivies and the NEC can offer their facts, figures and analyses as to why they are warranted an auto bid. This will remove this discussion from this board (who has no power to make a decision) and place it where it belongs on the NCAA table.

You are also assuming that those on this board are not aware of the upgrades in scollies and scheduling that are going on at most NEC schools.

The changes at MU, AU, SBU and CCSU are duly noted and the games of all these schools will be watched closely by most on this board. No one expects miracles but most of us expect competiveness in this year's games. We will all make our judgements accordingly. No one here is out to get the NEC. At the same time we don't see the need for entitlements for the NEC.