What did EWU tell Idaho after their Game?

[Phrebert]

Welcome back to the BIG SKY BITCH...There's more where that came from

[MplsBison]

Welcome back to the BIG SKY BITCH...There's more where that came from

I'd fully support Idaho dropping the program before having to crawl back to that.

[Grizalltheway]

I'd fully support Idaho dropping the program before having to crawl back to that.

Flagship universities don't just drop football. Can you name a flagship state university that doesn't sponsor football? UVT is the only one I can think of.

[coover]

Idaho does not belong in the FBS! That is not an insult. My team, Cal Poly, does not belong in the FBS, too.

Moscow Idaho, with a population of just under 24000 people, and Latah County, with a population of just over 37000 people, can hardly support an FBS team. Television revenues and attendance at their 15000 seat stadium certainly cannot sustain an FBS team.

San Luis Obispo, the home of the Mustangs, has a population of just over 45000, with almost 270000 in the County. Unfortunately, Spanos Stadium on the Cal Poly Campus, as beautiful as it is, seats only 11075. But even with this larger population in the area than Moscow, Idaho, the Mustangs were only able to draw 6022 to the game. It is true, of course, that the students had not returned to the campus for the fall quarter, and most students do not live in the County, so the attendance is understandable, but student attendance raises little revenue as students attend the game free. I'd guess that if the students were on campus, the attendance might have been close to capacity. But what this shows is that Cal Poly is, at least at present, not able to adequately, support a FBS team.

Idaho should swallow their pride and return to the Big Sky where they would probably be one of the larger fishes in the pond.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Welcome back to the BIG SKY BITCH...There's more where that came from

That's pretty much what I did say... 'See you guys back in Cheney soon!' or something to that affect.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I'd fully support Idaho dropping the program before having to crawl back to that.

Are you sure you're not a Vandal fan? You sure seem like it, with the levels of ignorance and arrogance you exude.

Pat pat, there there, it will be okay.

[Brad82]

Does Alaska -Anchorage have football?

[Laker]

Does Alaska -Anchorage have football?

No. They barely have high school football. ESPN had a very interesting story on how Barrow, the northernmost place in the US, started football. Very short season, problems with travel in our biggest state.

http://asaa.org/sports/football/

I think that I counted about thirty schools having football. They have two classes, big and small schools. Practice starts August 1, playoffs are done by the second and third week in October.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Idalol just got SLAMMED (with the truth) by their beat writer. Such a good read.

http://mbd.scout.com/mb.aspx?s=205&f=2664&t=9301160


Do the Idaho Vandals still honestly believe that they are too high and mighty for the Big Sky Conference?

Because they shouldn't. In fact, UI athletic director Rob Spear might want to make a phone call or two to ensure that the BSC hasn't rescinded its open-ended invite to the Vandals following Thursday's season-opening beatdown at the hands of Eastern Washington.

After months of doggedly building up the fraudulent notion that for some reason the Vandals have bigger fish to fry than Montana, Montana State and EWU, UI's fragile illusion was shattered in a span of three largely uneventful hours by the very conference it considers inferior.

The Eagles of Eastern Washington didn't just beat the Vandals 20-3, they strolled into the Kibbie Dome and confidently pummeled a hapless Idaho team - showing that the imaginary chasm which exists between the bottom of the Football Bowl Subdivision and the top of the Football Championship Subdivision is just that.

...

[CopperCat]

Wow, the Big Sky is "too good for Idaho." This guy doesn't sugarcoat anything.

[NoCoDanny]

Flagship universities don't just drop football. Can you name a flagship state university that doesn't sponsor football? UVT is the only one I can think of.

Colorado.

[Laker]

Wow, the Big Sky is "too good for Idaho." This guy doesn't sugarcoat anything.

I hope that the Idaho fans read that column and come to the same conclusion as he did.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I hope that the Idaho fans read that column and come to the same conclusion as he did.

Did you follow the link? The whole article is posted by a Vandal fan on their forum (subscription restricted on paper's website), and their fans are in complete denial (STILL), saying the writer is a douche who hates Idaho because he's a UM alum. It's quite comical.

[MplsBison]

Flagship universities don't just drop football. Can you name a flagship state university that doesn't sponsor football? UVT is the only one I can think of.

Alaska and Vermont are the only states without a public university that sponsors a varsity football team.

The state would still have the only football program that matters, Boise St.

[MplsBison]

Idaho does not belong in the FBS! That is not an insult. My team, Cal Poly, does not belong in the FBS, too.

Moscow Idaho, with a population of just under 24000 people, and Latah County, with a population of just over 37000 people, can hardly support an FBS team. Television revenues and attendance at their 15000 seat stadium certainly cannot sustain an FBS team.

San Luis Obispo, the home of the Mustangs, has a population of just over 45000, with almost 270000 in the County. Unfortunately, Spanos Stadium on the Cal Poly Campus, as beautiful as it is, seats only 11075. But even with this larger population in the area than Moscow, Idaho, the Mustangs were only able to draw 6022 to the game. It is true, of course, that the students had not returned to the campus for the fall quarter, and most students do not live in the County, so the attendance is understandable, but student attendance raises little revenue as students attend the game free. I'd guess that if the students were on campus, the attendance might have been close to capacity. But what this shows is that Cal Poly is, at least at present, not able to adequately, support a FBS team.

Idaho should swallow their pride and return to the Big Sky where they would probably be one of the larger fishes in the pond.

Then how can Whitman county, WA with pop. about 45k support a PAC-12 team??

If Idaho can't support an FBS team, then they should drop the sport. That would save the most money.


Honest to goodness - not a single poster on AGS has made a coherent argument for why keeping football at the FCS level is a better financial decision than dropping football altogether.

[DSUrocks07]

Did you follow the link? The whole article is posted by a Vandal fan on their forum (subscription restricted on paper's website), and their fans are in complete denial (STILL), saying the writer is a douche who hates Idaho because he's a UM alum. It's quite comical.

From another thread on the site...


Posted: 08/31/2012 6:42 AM
Re: The Big Sky Is No Answer!
I don't give a crap about FCS football. If we drop down I won't give a dime until Nellis, Spear and all the inept administrators are gone and even then none of it is going towards football.

After last night do we deserve to play FBS ball? That is very debatable. But the fact is the fans want it, and we're here and we should stick with it. I would rather have a cellar dwelling FBS team than a FCS national champion.

xnutsx

And this is the program that everyone says should be in the Big Sky??? I would much rather laugh at their failed attempts to survive at the FBS level and then DENY them membership in the BSC so their program can wither and die like it deserves too.

I think it would be a bigger slap in the face for Idaho to be a member of the BSC with NO football program.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Then how can Whitman county, WA with pop. about 45k support a PAC-12 team??

If Idaho can't support an FBS team, then they should drop the sport. That would save the most money.


Honest to goodness - not a single poster on AGS has made a coherent argument for why keeping football at the FCS level is a better financial decision than dropping football altogether.

It doesn't have to be a better financial decision. Is Idaho making money with their current FBS team? Would the finances be any worse as an FCS team? Should any of that matter? Tradition and pride in the school are very good reasons to keep the program alive. I wouldn't be surprised to see Idaho somehow worm its way into the MWC.

[FargoBison]

Then how can Whitman county, WA with pop. about 45k support a PAC-12 team??

If Idaho can't support an FBS team, then they should drop the sport. That would save the most money.


Honest to goodness - not a single poster on AGS has made a coherent argument for why keeping football at the FCS level is a better financial decision than dropping football altogether.

At the FCS level Idaho could join a conference where they actually have some peers and former rivals. Plus I think they could be a solid FCS program, being successful does sell tickets and create excitement. Football also drives donations and alumni support, Idaho will never be a great basketball school so the FCS is probably their best bet at finding a successful athletic niche. Unless they can get into the MWC they may as well go all out and embrace the Big Sky completely, I think football would be a important part of making their transition into the Big Sky a success.

[Grizalltheway]

It doesn't have to be a better financial decision. Is Idaho making money with their current FBS team? Would the finances be any worse as an FCS team? Should any of that matter? Tradition and pride in the school are very good reasons to keep the program alive. I wouldn't be surprised to see Idaho somehow worm its way into the MWC.

Are you and MPLS ignoring the fact that they've already been told to get lost by the MWC?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Are you and MPLS ignoring the fact that they've already been told to get lost by the MWC?

I'm not convinced the MWC won't change their minds. The MWC will stand at 9 football teams after losing Boise and SDSU, and gaining San Jose and Utah State. If Idaho can make it as an independent for a year or two the MWC will want to expand again, likely with NMSU, Idaho, and maybe UTEP to go up to an even 12 for football.

[frozennorth]

don't say that, i like ndsu to the mwc xrotatehx

[Squealofthepig]

Moscow Idaho, with a population of just under 24000 people, and Latah County, with a population of just over 37000 people, can hardly support an FBS team.

This is a very valid point, especially when you look at the Big Sky Conference cities:

Portland State (Portland, OR): 593,820
Sacramento State (Sacramento, CA): 472,178
Northern Colorado (Greeley, CO): 92,889
Weber State (Ogden, UT): 82,825
Montana (Missoula, MT): 67,290
Northern Arizona (Flagstaff, AZ): 65,870
UC Davis (Davis, CA): 65,622
Idaho State (Pocatello, ID): 54,255
North Dakota (Grand Forks, ND): 52,838
Cal Poly (San Luis Obispo, CA): 45,119
Montana State (Bozeman, MT): 37,280
Southern Utah (Cedar City, UT): 28,857
Eastern Washington (Cheney, WA): 10,590

Only EWU is smaller, and Cheney is part of Spokane County, Washington, with a half million people. Looking at these numbers, Idaho would seem to be small even in terms of FCS (especially when you look at actual attendance numbers of Idaho versus Montana, Montana State and EWU).

(numbers courtesy of wikipedia, normal caveats apply).

[Walkon79]

They can't even keep up with the upper echelon BSC teams in facilities

[cpalum]

This is a very valid point, especially when you look at the Big Sky Conference cities:

Portland State (Portland, OR): 593,820
Sacramento State (Sacramento, CA): 472,178
Northern Colorado (Greeley, CO): 92,889
Weber State (Ogden, UT): 82,825
Montana (Missoula, MT): 67,290
Northern Arizona (Flagstaff, AZ): 65,870
UC Davis (Davis, CA): 65,622
Idaho State (Pocatello, ID): 54,255
North Dakota (Grand Forks, ND): 52,838
Cal Poly (San Luis Obispo, CA): 45,119
Montana State (Bozeman, MT): 37,280
Southern Utah (Cedar City, UT): 28,857
Eastern Washington (Cheney, WA): 10,590

Only EWU is smaller, and Cheney is part of Spokane County, Washington, with a half million people. Looking at these numbers, Idaho would seem to be small even in terms of FCS (especially when you look at actual attendance numbers of Idaho versus Montana, Montana State and EWU).

(numbers courtesy of wikipedia, normal caveats apply).




ehhh...Idaho may not belong in FBS but I don't think that the Moscow population is as important as some think. I could list a dozen schools who are based in small towns that sell upwards of 15k in tickets week in week out. I could also list a dozen schools that play in big cities who struggle to come close to that number. It has far more to do commitment to success, creating culture where both the community and the school support the team. It also has a lot to do with the opponent....conference etc.

Why does Montana have such a great fan experience and culture? Is it because Missoula is big?

Consider a school like Oregon State. Corvallis is about the same size as San Luis Obispo yet they routinely sell 40k plus to their home games...Conversely look at a school like San Jose State.....they are in the bay area with millions of people within a 1 hour drive; they often cant pull 15k for a game.....better opposition in the PAC than the WAC....more regional interest, more history (conference), better game day experience.....city population is just one piece of the puzzle.

Idaho has several hurdles in playing at the FBS level......in my mind having a conference to play in is #1.......the lack of a FBS quality facility is #2......The size of Moscow is may #5

[DSUrocks07]

I mostly agree, but I might nuance this by saying that #2 is the reason for #1 - the Kibbie Dome is terrible and U of I's refusal to upgrade goes a long way toward explaining why they haven't had much success on the field and why nobody wanted them in conference realignment.

There are a couple of other factors that make their small college town effectively smaller: it's very removed from the state's population centers and it's almost next-door to a school in a higher-profile conference. Alums or casual fans from Treasure Valley literally have to cross a mountain range to attend a game. And casual fans on the Palouse or in Northern Idaho have every reason to jump on the Wazzou bandwagon.

Literally 15 minutes away (http://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=University+of+idaho&daddr=washington+state+university&hl=en&ll=46.730213,-117.077522&spn=0.125664,0.220757&sll=46.719387,-117.066879&sspn=0.125689,0.220757&geocode=FawCyQIdZpwG-SFszY_ZG0Fljynjl5l4hiegVDFszY_ZG0Fljw%3BFUwZyQIdln cE-SHbcFe1pPJl9ClvqEjIBYefVDHbcFe1pPJl9A&mra=ls&t=m&z=12)

[MplsBison]

It doesn't have to be a better financial decision. Is Idaho making money with their current FBS team? Would the finances be any worse as an FCS team? Should any of that matter? Tradition and pride in the school are very good reasons to keep the program alive. I wouldn't be surprised to see Idaho somehow worm its way into the MWC.

100% correct. And this has been my position all along. My post was more directed at the legion of Big Sky posters on here who crow incessantly that Idaho can only survive if they drop down to the Big Sky.

[MplsBison]

I'm not convinced the MWC won't change their minds. The MWC will stand at 9 football teams after losing Boise and SDSU, and gaining San Jose and Utah State. If Idaho can make it as an independent for a year or two the MWC will want to expand again, likely with NMSU, Idaho, and maybe UTEP to go up to an even 12 for football.

100% correct again, except that Hawaii will be a 10th football only member. Still, with Idaho and NMSU they get back to 12 (UTEP probably wouldn't come over anyway).

Conference realignment is not done by a long shot. Therefore I and many other implore Idaho to hang on for two more seasons and let things beyond their control play out a bit further. Don't give in to piddling minions beneath you, screaming and jumping up at your ankles to pull you down.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

From another thread on the site...



xnutsx

And this is the program that everyone says should be in the Big Sky??? I would much rather laugh at their failed attempts to survive at the FBS level and then DENY them membership in the BSC so their program can wither and die like it deserves too.

I think it would be a bigger slap in the face for Idaho to be a member of the BSC with NO football program.


I didn't see that comment, but I can't say that I'm surprised. Alle is one of the most vocal, ignorant douchebags they have.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

100% correct again, except that Hawaii will be a 10th football only member. Still, with Idaho and NMSU they get back to 12 (UTEP probably wouldn't come over anyway).

Conference realignment is not done by a long shot. Therefore I and many other implore Idaho to hang on for two more seasons and let things beyond their control play out a bit further. Don't give in to piddling minions beneath you, screaming and jumping up at your ankles to pull you down.

Except that the "piddling minions beneath them" just beat the F out of them. xcoffeex

Your argument for why Idaho should remain FBS is about as strong as their football team right now.

[AppChicago]

I don't buy market size alone as meaning all that much on its own.

Oxford, MS (19k)
Clemson, SC (14k)
Starkville, MS (25k)
Morgantown, WV (30k)

Meanwhile, plenty of big markets lack a major college football pull, as college sports are often eclipsed by pro teams. Looking at the city where I lived for years, Chicago, I see Northwestern struggling to draw more fans than App State pulls in to Boone. And it's the biggest thing going in local college football.

So there's lots more to it than market size, no?

[Laker]

I don't buy market size alone as meaning all that much on its own.

Oxford, MS (19k)
Clemson, SC (14k)
Starkville, MS (25k)
Morgantown, WV (30k)

Meanwhile, plenty of big markets lack a major college football pull, as college sports are often eclipsed by pro teams. Looking at the city where I lived for years, Chicago, I see Northwestern struggling to draw more fans than App State pulls in to Boone. And it's the biggest thing going in local college football.

So there's lots more to it than market size, no?

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/02/sju-leads-2010-attendance

D3 St. John's in Minnesota averaged 8651 over five game. I've been there when they had about 15,000 against St. Thomas. Collegeville is not even a town, it was a whistle stop years agao on a railroad crossing. They average more than twice of what nearby St. Cloud, a D2 playoff school, does. Great place to watch a game in a natural bowl setting with leaves falling down from the trees, and the lakes are nearby.

So yes- size of the community may not mean much.

[Twentysix]

I don't buy market size alone as meaning all that much on its own.

Oxford, MS (19k)
Clemson, SC (14k)
Starkville, MS (25k)
Morgantown, WV (30k)

Meanwhile, plenty of big markets lack a major college football pull, as college sports are often eclipsed by pro teams. Looking at the city where I lived for years, Chicago, I see Northwestern struggling to draw more fans than App State pulls in to Boone. And it's the biggest thing going in local college football.

So there's lots more to it than market size, no?

Urbana Champaigne is a hop and a skip. Chicago has alot of transplants too. Wisconsin, Indiana or otherwise. Not to mention massive cities are an amalgamation of people from all over, it seems the bigger a city gets(After a certain point most certainly), the less ****s they give about local schools.

[Vitojr130]

http://www.d3football.com/notables/2011/02/sju-leads-2010-attendance

D3 St. John's in Minnesota averaged 8651 over five game. I've been there when they had about 15,000 against St. Thomas. Collegeville is not even a town, it was a whistle stop years agao on a railroad crossing. They average more than twice of what nearby St. Cloud, a D2 playoff school, does. Great place to watch a game in a natural bowl setting with leaves falling down from the trees, and the lakes are nearby.

So yes- size of the community may not mean much.

Let's get real here. Most D3 teams don't have legendary coaches and records. The Jimmies are definitely an exception and not a rule. Damn good D3 team! One of my friends played on it and loved it!

[MplsBison]

Except that the "piddling minions beneath them" just beat the F out of them. xcoffeex

Your argument for why Idaho should remain FBS is about as strong as their football team right now.

20-3 is no such thing as a beat down. EW played a great game, held a 17-10 advantage in first downs, 412-237 advantage in total yards, both teams had one turnover (int). By no means a beatdown.

Try 84-0. That's a beat down.


My argument for why Idaho should remain I-A for the next two years is the perfectly correct argument. Indeed, that's exactly what they're going to be doing.

And hopefully they'll get a MWC all-sports invite and give the Big Sky a royal middle finger. That will absolutely make my day. I'll be giddy.


Here's the fact of the matter: EW plays I-AA football, Idaho plays I-A football. Idaho provides 85 scholarships to football players, EW can't afford to give that many. Idaho's stadium seats over 15k, EW's stadium only seats 8k. Those are facts of the matter which mean Idaho's football program is vastly superior to EW's. It's a shame they aren't playing on the field like that and good on EW for going in there and beating their butts. Hope it wakes it them up.

I'll be cheering for EW to beat WSU this weekend as well, good luck.

[AppChicago]

Urbana Champaigne is a hop and a skip. Chicago has alot of transplants too. Wisconsin, Indiana or otherwise. Not to mention massive cities are an amalgamation of people from all over, it seems the bigger a city gets(After a certain point most certainly), the less ****s they give about local schools.

Depending on where you are in Chicago, Madison may be even closer than Champaign, but I don't want to get lost in the details of one particular city. My point is that there are plenty of small towns with strong college football attendance and plenty of big cities with weak college attendance.

[DSUrocks07]

20-3 is no such thing as a beat down. EW played a great game, held a 17-10 advantage in first downs, 412-237 advantage in total yards, both teams had one turnover (int). By no means a beatdown.

Try 84-0. That's a beat down.


My argument for why Idaho should remain I-A for the next two years is the perfectly correct argument. Indeed, that's exactly what they're going to be doing.

And hopefully they'll get a MWC all-sports invite and give the Big Sky a royal middle finger. That will absolutely make my day. I'll be giddy.


Here's the fact of the matter: EW plays I-AA football, Idaho plays I-A football. Idaho provides 85 scholarships to football players, EW can't afford to give that many. Idaho's stadium seats over 15k, EW's stadium only seats 8k. Those are facts of the matter which mean Idaho's football program is vastly superior to EW's. It's a shame they aren't playing on the field like that and good on EW for going in there and beating their butts. Hope it wakes it them up.

I'll be cheering for EW to beat WSU this weekend as well, good luck.

You do have a point. The inherent advantages of being and FBS over FCS are obvious. And an Idaho at their best and their program firing on all cylinders would always beat down FCS teams, but there in lies the problem. Idaho is not doing those things, and if they aren't doing those things then FCS is a legit option.

You say that Idaho's stadium is 15k, well Montana's is 25k+ so does that mean that Montana's program is vastly superior to Idaho's?

[cpalum]

20-3 is no such thing as a beat down. EW played a great game, held a 17-10 advantage in first downs, 412-237 advantage in total yards, both teams had one turnover (int). By no means a beatdown.

Try 84-0. That's a beat down.


My argument for why Idaho should remain I-A for the next two years is the perfectly correct argument. Indeed, that's exactly what they're going to be doing.

And hopefully they'll get a MWC all-sports invite and give the Big Sky a royal middle finger. That will absolutely make my day. I'll be giddy.


Here's the fact of the matter: EW plays I-AA football, Idaho plays I-A football. Idaho provides 85 scholarships to football players, EW can't afford to give that many. Idaho's stadium seats over 15k, EW's stadium only seats 8k. Those are facts of the matter which mean Idaho's football program is vastly superior to EW's. It's a shame they aren't playing on the field like that and good on EW for going in there and beating their butts. Hope it wakes it them up.

I'll be cheering for EW to beat WSU this weekend as well, good luck.


So .....Idaho plays in a bigger facility, pays more for scholarships, loses to a school with fewer scholarships by 17 points... which isn't a blowout and that is why Idaho's program is "vastly superior" to EW's? Makes perfect sense.

[dgtw]

If the MWC wanted Idaho they'd already have invited them. If they drop down to nine football teams they'll be fine because it gives them four games home and away. a perfect split for football.

They are staying in FBS for now just to see if they can do it. I don't blame them and respect them for trying. But I don't see it succeeding as they'll have a hard time filling a home roster of games.

[Catbooster]

If you're a talented high school football player in Idaho (let alone from somewhere else) with the size, speed, etc. to play FBS ball, you probably attract attention from the schools in Idaho, Utah, Washington... If Utah, Washington State, Boise and Idaho offer you a scholarship, do you pick Idaho? Conversely, if you're marginal or for whatever reason don't get the offers from them but get interest from Weber State, Montana, Montana State, Eastern Wahington, (ok - Idaho State) and Idaho, who do you pick?

Either way, I think the majority would not choose Idaho. Which is why I think that if Idaho really wants to try to make this work over the next two years, they need to fast-track a plan to upgrade facilities, probably throw another 500k at coaches' salaries, maybe get a new coach....

A charismatic coach (like the Idaho alum now coaching at Idaho State) may be able to attract those players if he can point to commitment from the administration and community in the form of facility improvements. But as it sits right now, I don't see them making it. And that's ok if they can't or won't make those investments, but if that's the case, FCS is the division for them.

[MplsBison]

You do have a point. The inherent advantages of being and FBS over FCS are obvious. And an Idaho at their best and their program firing on all cylinders would always beat down FCS teams, but there in lies the problem. Idaho is not doing those things, and if they aren't doing those things then FCS is a legit option.

You say that Idaho's stadium is 15k, well Montana's is 25k+ so does that mean that Montana's program is vastly superior to Idaho's?

If Montana gave 85 scholarships, it would be superior to Idaho's.

As of right now, Montana has better facilities, winning tradition, probably pays their coaches better, brings in more revenue from fans (more season tickets and donations) --- but they don't have the balls to offer 85 scholarships. Too scared to take the plunge. So I can't say that Montana's program is better than Idaho's.

On the field performance has nothing to do with program.

[MplsBison]

So .....Idaho plays in a bigger facility, pays more for scholarships, loses to a school with fewer scholarships by 17 points... which isn't a blowout and that is why Idaho's program is "vastly superior" to EW's? Makes perfect sense.

On the field performance has nothing to do with program. That's everything else.

[MplsBison]

If the MWC wanted Idaho they'd already have invited them. If they drop down to nine football teams they'll be fine because it gives them four games home and away. a perfect split for football.

They are staying in FBS for now just to see if they can do it. I don't blame them and respect them for trying. But I don't see it succeeding as they'll have a hard time filling a home roster of games.

I don't think the MWC wants Idaho, regardless. But just because they don't want them doesn't mean they won't send an invitation.

I'd be hard pressed to believe that they really wanted San Jose and Utah State. But both programs did enough to get the lifeline. NM St and Idaho have two years to show what they can do. Or perhaps if the MWC wants to go to 12, they'll invite both anyway.


It's a heck of a lot easier to invite a program that's already I-A, already offering 85 scholarships, already playing 11 games against other I-A teams than to bring in a move up (not that they'd necessarily turn down Montana). Just saying.


And as I mentioned, the MWC won't be down to 9 they'll have 10 because Hawaii will be a football-only member.

[MplsBison]

Right on point. The state of Idaho had one player in the ESPN 150 last year. He committed to BYU.

Northern Idaho just doesn't have the high school football culture that produces dozens of elite players in other low population states, and any rare standouts have almost no reason to choose U of I over Wazzou, which has better facilities, a deeper institutional commitment to football, an infinitely better conference situation, as much or more academic prestige, and is just as local.

Southern Idaho, which might as well be another state culturally and geographically, may be starting to build that football culture, but it's still a long way from complete, and BYU has a leg up with the third of the population that's LDS. Boise State put another nail in U of I's coffin by declining to continue their rivalry series: now U of I never plays in southern Idaho, and has less exposure and can offer fewer chances for Boise parents to see their Vandal kids play. Given Boise State's rise, and the proximity and strength of the Utah schools, a player from southern Idaho has very few reasons to play in Moscow if he has other options.

If you're fifth in line in Idaho for recruits (behind BYU, Boise State, Wazzou, and Utah) you have almost no chance.

On the other hand, if you're competing with Montana, Montana St, Idaho St, Weber St, etc. for a recruit and they can only afford to offer a half scholarship while Idaho can offer a full scholarship....

[Screamin_Eagle174]

On the field performance has nothing to do with program. That's everything else.

That has to be the most ignorant thing you've said. PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. IT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GODDAMN GAME! The whole point of being "FBS" and giving out more scholarships is to get the best players, so they can win more games. FACT OF THE MATTER IS, both EWU and Montana hand out 22 less scholarships than UI, but attract better athletes and have better on the field performance. People want a winner. The extra resources at the FBS level are there to increase chances of winning. Idaho still can't do that. When winning suffers, so does recruiting. And attendance. And therefore $$$. Winning generates $$$. Idaho needs to drop down, because they cannot win at the FBS level. It's that simple. JFC you're dense.

[Catbooster]

If Montana gave 85 scholarships, it would be superior to Idaho's.

As of right now, Montana has better facilities, winning tradition, probably pays their coaches better, brings in more revenue from fans (more season tickets and donations) --- but they don't have the balls to offer 85 scholarships. Too scared to take the plunge. So I can't say that Montana's program is better than Idaho's.

On the field performance has nothing to do with program.

Of course we all realize that the Grizzlies don't have balls ;)

Thank you for your fine explanation of what is required for the move from FCS to FBS - balls. All programs that don't play at the FBS level are just scared. And for all this time I thought there were quite a few institutional and financial factors involved in the decision. xrolleyesx

[MplsBison]

That has to be the most ignorant thing you've said. PERFORMANCE ON THE FIELD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING. IT'S WHY THEY PLAY THE GODDAMN GAME! The whole point of being "FBS" and giving out more scholarships is to get the best players, so they can win more games. FACT OF THE MATTER IS, both EWU and Montana hand out 22 less scholarships than UI, but attract better athletes and have better on the field performance. People want a winner. The extra resources at the FBS level are there to increase chances of winning. Idaho still can't do that. When winning suffers, so does recruiting. And attendance. And therefore $$$. Winning generates $$$. Idaho needs to drop down, because they cannot win at the FBS level. It's that simple. JFC you're dense.

I didn't say on the field performance wasn't important, I said it's not what defines the program.

The point of being I-A is to offer 85 scholarships and belong to the highest classification in college football. Nothing beyond that can even be implied, you're wrong to do so. It's proven every year that I-AA teams, in a single game, can in fact beat I-A teams. That of course proves nothing, but does give the I-AA teams the feeling that they've won the superbowl and does give them bragging rights.


Idaho either needs to be able to: join the MWC in 2015 if that opportunity is there, continuing playing as an I-A independent if the experiment turns out ok or drop football. Those should be the options on the table.

Dropping to I-AA should be viewed the same as dropping to DII.

[MplsBison]

Of course we all realize that the Grizzlies don't have balls ;)

Thank you for your fine explanation of what is required for the move from FCS to FBS - balls. All programs that don't play at the FBS level are just scared. And for all this time I thought there were quite a few institutional and financial factors involved in the decision. xrolleyesx

Well, frankly, the only thing stopping a program like Montana is a lack of balls. They have everything else.

Almost every other program in I-AA does not have everything else and therefore can not make the move to I-A even if they do have the balls to do it. That's the obvious point that you knew but chose to ignore anyway in your post.

[Laker]

Dropping to I-AA should be viewed the same as dropping to DII.

But what about all of the other sports besides football? For them there is a huge difference between that and D2.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I didn't say on the field performance wasn't important, I said it's not what defines the program.

The point of being I-A is to offer 85 scholarships and belong to the highest classification in college football. Nothing beyond that can even be implied, you're wrong to do so. It's proven every year that I-AA teams, in a single game, can in fact beat I-A teams. That of course proves nothing, but does give the I-AA teams the feeling that they've won the superbowl and does give them bragging rights.


Idaho either needs to be able to: join the MWC in 2015 if that opportunity is there, continuing playing as an I-A independent if the experiment turns out ok or drop football. Those should be the options on the table.

Dropping to I-AA should be viewed the same as dropping to DII.

Once again, you're wrong. The point of being FBS is to offer more scholarships so they can get more depth and better players. The more depth and better players you have, in general, the better chance you have at winning. The ultimate goal of a football program is to win. Win games, win conferences, win championships. It's not simply to be the FBS. But for your sake, I hope the UNDS Bearded Prairie Cows move up to FBS and lose perpetually. I know you would be happy. Tool.

[Bison Fan in NW MN]

Once again, you're wrong. The point of being FBS is to offer more scholarships so they can get more depth and better players. The more depth and better players you have, in general, the better chance you have at winning. The ultimate goal of a football program is to win. Win games, win conferences, win championships. It's not simply to be the FBS. But for your sake, I hope the UNDS Bearded Prairie Cows move up to FBS and lose perpetually. I know you would be happy. Tool.

Man, don't get me started....

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Man, don't get me started....

Too late. xcoffeex

[Catbooster]

Well, frankly, the only thing stopping a program like Montana is a lack of balls. They have everything else.

Almost every other program in I-AA does not have everything else and therefore can not make the move to I-A even if they do have the balls to do it. That's the obvious point that you knew but chose to ignore anyway in your post.

Really? How familiar are you with UM's athletic facilities and budget? Montana legislative and Board of Regents politics? I think you're the one ignoring significant points that don't fit in your view of how things are.

I'm no expert on UM's facilities and budget either, but my impression is that they have the aspects seen by the public on gameday (stadium and wins) but are a little behind on the infrastructure of athletics like weight rooms, academic center, etc. - which contradicts your assertion that on-field performance isn't the major aspect of how programs are viewed.

O'Day was on record a few years back saying that UM would need 5 million more per year in their athletic budget to maintain a move up to FBS. They are already quite successful but that is a significant increase. It's not like they aren't already tapping all of the revenue they can (not to say they can't increase their revenue - but that's a lot). With a good conference maybe most of that can come from the conference, but probably not from their balls. I also don't see how you think it is just a matter of being afraid to move up when schools are not able to move up without an invitation from a conference.

I guess we have to assume that NDSU is also afraid, since they aren't FBS?

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Really? How familiar are you with UM's athletic facilities and budget? Montana legislative and Board of Regents politics? I think you're the one ignoring significant points that don't fit in your view of how things are.

I'm no expert on UM's facilities and budget either, but my impression is that they have the aspects seen by the public on gameday (stadium and wins) but are a little behind on the infrastructure of athletics like weight rooms, academic center, etc. - which contradicts your assertion that on-field performance isn't the major aspect of how programs are viewed.

O'Day was on record a few years back saying that UM would need 5 million more per year in their athletic budget to maintain a move up to FBS. They are already quite successful but that is a significant increase. It's not like they aren't already tapping all of the revenue they can (not to say they can't increase their revenue - but that's a lot). With a good conference maybe most of that can come from the conference, but probably not from their balls. I also don't see how you think it is just a matter of being afraid to move up when schools are not able to move up without an invitation from a conference.

I guess we have to assume that NDSU is also afraid, since they aren't FBS?

NDSU isn't afraid, they just don't have balls either. Large vaginas though. ;)

[Twentysix]

NDSU isn't afraid, they just don't have balls either. Large vaginas though. ;)

Your school plays on a period rag....

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Your school plays on a period rag....

I know, and even Bearded Prairie Cow players enjoy it. Brock loved it so much he though he should get a closer look.

http://www.myuploadedimages.com/images/27601066062311614600.jpg

[Twentysix]

I know, and even Bearded Prairie Cow players enjoy it. Brock loved it so much he though he should get a closer look.

http://www.myuploadedimages.com/images/27601066062311614600.jpg

That is a photo of Brock 'Jaguar Blood' Jensen giving EWU's rag a little hoodoo magic.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TFTRc8xXlOI/AAAAAAAAAIU/aMESObn2xxE/Hoodoo%20Gurus%20And%20Hoodoo%20Spells.jpg

Don't let the white face and wisconsin roots fool you. He's got dem bad curses mun.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

That is a photo of Brock 'Jaguar Blood' Jensen giving EWU's rag a little hoodoo magic.

http://lh3.ggpht.com/_tqKGTClq--A/TFTRc8xXlOI/AAAAAAAAAIU/aMESObn2xxE/Hoodoo%20Gurus%20And%20Hoodoo%20Spells.jpg

Don't let the white face and wisconsin roots fool you. He's got dem bad curses mun.


I don't know man, doesn't look like a real voodooist to me. Looks forged. xcoffeex

[344Johnson]

I don't know man, doesn't look like a real voodooist to me. Looks forged. xcoffeex


An average Bison team took the Natty Champs to the wire on their field. :) Can't imagine what last year's Herd would have done to that Eag's team ;)

All in good fun. Real fun game to watch, heartbreaking for sure. Fun nonetheless.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

An average Bison team took the Natty Champs to the wire on their field. :) Can't imagine what last year's Herd would have done to that Eag's team ;)

All in good fun. Real fun game to watch, heartbreaking for sure. Fun nonetheless.

Yeah, with 5 gift-wrapped turnovers and our best player out. Glad you guys made a game out of it. xthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

But what about all of the other sports besides football? For them there is a huge difference between that and D2.

I don't see any problem with Idaho non-football sports being in the Big Sky, if they can't get an all-sports invite to the MWC.

[MplsBison]

Once again, you're wrong. The point of being FBS is to offer more scholarships so they can get more depth and better players. The more depth and better players you have, in general, the better chance you have at winning. The ultimate goal of a football program is to win. Win games, win conferences, win championships. It's not simply to be the FBS. But for your sake, I hope the UNDS Bearded Prairie Cows move up to FBS and lose perpetually. I know you would be happy. Tool.

Did you join the country club so you could play better golf?

I-AA is the city course. Plenty of decent players.

I-A is the club. Plenty of decent players, some really good players but also a few that just want to be in the club, will pay the dues but aren't really any better than the folks who prefer to play down on the city course.

[MplsBison]

Really? How familiar are you with UM's athletic facilities and budget? Montana legislative and Board of Regents politics? I think you're the one ignoring significant points that don't fit in your view of how things are.

I'm no expert on UM's facilities and budget either, but my impression is that they have the aspects seen by the public on gameday (stadium and wins) but are a little behind on the infrastructure of athletics like weight rooms, academic center, etc. - which contradicts your assertion that on-field performance isn't the major aspect of how programs are viewed.

O'Day was on record a few years back saying that UM would need 5 million more per year in their athletic budget to maintain a move up to FBS. They are already quite successful but that is a significant increase. It's not like they aren't already tapping all of the revenue they can (not to say they can't increase their revenue - but that's a lot). With a good conference maybe most of that can come from the conference, but probably not from their balls. I also don't see how you think it is just a matter of being afraid to move up when schools are not able to move up without an invitation from a conference.

I guess we have to assume that NDSU is also afraid, since they aren't FBS?

NDSU has never been given an opportunity to move up. If they had been given that opportunity and then turned it down, then absolutely I would say that NDSU lacking balls was the only reason.

Montana is not only ready but has turned down a perfectly good invitation to move up. If they would let it be known that they were interested in moving up, I do think the MWC would be interested. To turn down the MWC to stay in the Big Sky and I-AA would be giving up.

[asumike83]

Idaho needs to return to the Big Sky. I'd hate to see them drop football and I'm sure the students and alumni would as well. Time to swallow your pride and move to the conference that is the best fit, both geographically and competitively. Life as an FBS independent would be brutal.

EWU could end up running the table and winning another national championship for all we know but based on early season expectations, they are the 2nd/3rd best team in the Big Sky and they dominated Idaho on their home field. There were 11K in attendance for the season opener and I'd be willing to bet there will be well under 10K when they return home 0-3 to play Wyoming.

[MplsBison]

Idaho needs to return to the Big Sky. I'd hate to see them drop football and I'm sure the students and alumni would as well. Time to swallow your pride and move to the conference that is the best fit, both geographically and competitively. Life as an FBS independent would be brutal.

EWU could end up running the table and winning another national championship for all we know but based on early season expectations, they are the 2nd/3rd best team in the Big Sky and they dominated Idaho on their home field. There were 11K in attendance for the season opener and I'd be willing to bet there will be well under 10K when they return home 0-3 to play Wyoming.

You don't get kicked out of the country club because you're not good at golf.

[asumike83]

You don't get kicked out of the country club because you're not good at golf.

True, but I'm not saying the FBS should kick them out.

I'm saying they should leave the country club because they can't play golf, have rusty old clubs and no friends to play with. It is no longer worth the cost of membership.

[MplsBison]

True, but I'm not saying the FBS should kick them out.

I'm saying they should leave the country club because they can't play golf, have rusty old clubs and no friends to play with. It is no longer worth the cost of membership.

But that should solely be Idaho's decision to make. And if I'm Idaho, I'm saying "yeah, my clubs suck, yeah I slice every ball out of bounds...but you know what, this club is a heck of a lot nicer than the city course and I can still afford the dues, so I think I'll stay here".

[MplsBison]

Of course there's a range of competitiveness. There's a range of competitiveness at any tier of play. But on average and over time, the FBS teams are stronger than FCS teams. FBS money is not the equivalent of country club dues - it's the equivalent of buying additional lessons and additional tee times to improve your game.

The fact that there are occasional FCS over FBS occasional upsets, and that the fact there are probably a few teams in both subdivisions who are borderline cases doesn't change that. The lack of a bright line between the subdivisions doesn't mean there isn't a difference.

App State and Montana and others could probably move up to FBS. Idaho and the New Mexico schools and others could probably move down. But Appalachian State would not be a dominant team, or even a particularly strong team, at the FBS level. Idaho would be vastly more competitive at the FCS level than it is at the FBS level.

Why?

Why would Idaho perform any better than Idaho St in the Big Sky?

[asumike83]

But that should solely be Idaho's decision to make. And if I'm Idaho, I'm saying "yeah, my clubs suck, yeah I slice every ball out of bounds...but you know what, this club is a heck of a lot nicer than the city course and I can still afford the dues, so I think I'll stay here".

I agree that it should be their decision and it will be. Nobody is going to force them back into the Big Sky. Financially, how long can they really sustain themselves as an FBS independent? They are going to be on the road a ton and the ticket revenue will be minimal for the home games they do get. If it were my school, I would be fully supportive of a move to a conference that makes sense geographically where my team could actually be competitive.

[MplsBison]

I agree that it should be their decision and it will be. Nobody is going to force them back into the Big Sky. Financially, how long can they really sustain themselves as an FBS independent? They are going to be on the road a ton and the ticket revenue will be minimal for the home games they do get. If it were my school, I would be fully supportive of a move to a conference that makes sense geographically where my team could actually be competitive.

If you're just trying to save money - why not drop the team? Won't that save more money?

If you're just trying to be more competitive - why not drop to DII (the entire athletic department), won't they be more competitive there?

[asumike83]

If you're just trying to save money - why not drop the team? Won't that save more money?

If you're just trying to be more competitive - why not drop to DII (the entire athletic department), won't they be more competitive there?

It is a compromise. It will save some money while still allowing them to play football at a higher level than DII against familiar opponents with whom they have history.

[MplsBison]

It is a compromise. It will save some money while still allowing them to play football at a higher level than DII against familiar opponents with whom they have history.

I-A is a higher level than DII. What's wrong with that level?

Costs too much? How much money will they save dropping to the Big Sky? 22 scholarships is peanuts and travel costs will be the same.

Not competitive? How is Idaho going to be competitive in the Big Sky with similar facilities and resources as Idaho St and NAU? Neither of which are particularly competitive.

[MplsBison]

Are you asking this seriously? Well, for starters, they have more resources than Idaho State. Their endowment's about 8 times the size of ISU's. They have more alumni support across the state- you'll see Vandals gear in the Treasure Valley, but almost never ISU stuff. Idaho has a pretty campus, and Moscow is a nice college town, and U of I has to be much easier to sell to recruits than Pocatello . Idaho was strong enough to take a shot at the FBS level in the first place - I can't see how they wouldn't be stronger than ISU.

Larger academic endowments and a pretty campus don't attract football players. Ok, more support in Treasure valley, how many DI talent football players come out of there (that don't commit to Boise or other places)?

Certainly they have better academics than Idaho St. But that's not the question.


The question is how can Idaho expect to be more competitive than Idaho St in the Big Sky if they have the same number of scholarships? Facilities nearly same, state is the same, scholarships and coaching pay would be the same.

I'm not seeing it, myself.



At least in I-A they have more scholarships to offer kids.

[DSUrocks07]

How many FBS schools are within 20 minutes of each other?

[asumike83]

I-A is a higher level than DII. What's wrong with that level?

Costs too much? How much money will they save dropping to the Big Sky? 22 scholarships is peanuts and travel costs will be the same.

Not competitive? How is Idaho going to be competitive in the Big Sky with similar facilities and resources as Idaho St and NAU? Neither of which are particularly competitive.

Just the number of guaranteed home games by being a member of a conference would reduce their costs significantly. How many FBS teams are really going to schedule a road game in the Kibbie Dome if they are not forced to do so by a conference? Of their 6 non-conference games in 2012, 4 are on the road. Of the 2 home games, only one is an FBS opponent. When they have a full 12-game schedule to fill out, they will be taking any game they can get their hands on regardless of how far away it is.

They have been in the Big Sky before. They have 9 Big Sky Conference football championships. Why do you think they could not compete the second time around?

[DSUrocks07]

Just the number of guaranteed home games by being a member of a conference would reduce their costs significantly. How many FBS teams are really going to schedule a road game in the Kibbie Dome if they are not forced to do so by a conference? Of their 6 non-conference games in 2012, 4 are on the road. Of the 2 home games, only one is an FBS opponent. When they have a full 12-game schedule to fill out, they will be taking any game they can get their hands on regardless of how far away it is.

They have been in the Big Sky before. They have 9 Big Sky Conference football championships. Why do you think they could not compete the second time around?

And maybe they can get a few guarantee games against WSU as an FCS team as well.

[kdinva]

How many FBS schools are within 20 minutes of each other?

USC/UCLA.......Michigan/EMU.......Stanford/San Jose St.......Cal/Stanford (about 35 mi.)......SMU/TCU (about 25).......UNC/Duke........Duke/NC St. (about 25).....Navy/Md. (about 28)........Toledo/Bowling Green (about 25)......

[AppChicago]

USC/UCLA.......Michigan/EMU.......Stanford/San Jose St.......Cal/Stanford (about 35 mi.)......SMU/TCU (about 25).......UNC/Duke........Duke/NC St. (about 25).....Navy/Md. (about 28)........Toledo/Bowling Green (about 25)......

Rice/Houston and FIU/Miami, also.

[DSUrocks07]

USC/UCLA.......Michigan/EMU.......Stanford/San Jose St.......Cal/Stanford (about 35 mi.)......SMU/TCU (about 25).......UNC/Duke........Duke/NC St. (about 25).....Navy/Md. (about 28)........Toledo/Bowling Green (about 25)......


Rice/Houston and FIU/Miami, also.

I can understand that Moscow is difficult to get too, but Wazzu can get players in Pullman. And they are just as isolated as Idaho is tbh...

[MplsBison]

Just the number of guaranteed home games by being a member of a conference would reduce their costs significantly. How many FBS teams are really going to schedule a road game in the Kibbie Dome if they are not forced to do so by a conference? Of their 6 non-conference games in 2012, 4 are on the road. Of the 2 home games, only one is an FBS opponent. When they have a full 12-game schedule to fill out, they will be taking any game they can get their hands on regardless of how far away it is.

They have been in the Big Sky before. They have 9 Big Sky Conference football championships. Why do you think they could not compete the second time around?

I guess I won't be able to convince you until the 2013 Idaho schedule is released, but rest assured that they will meet the requirements of the division which are 5 home games and 4 against I-A teams. Big Sky would only guarantee 4 home games and that against I-AA teams.


No way you can justify what Idaho was doing in the 80's and early 90's as a simple "plug-n-play" skipping over the last 20 years. They've been I-A since 97. Things have changed a great deal since then.

[MplsBison]

I can understand that Moscow is difficult to get too, but Wazzu can get players in Pullman. And they are just as isolated as Idaho is tbh...

Yep. Pretty much any argument about Idaho's geography is nullified by the fact that a Pac-12 school is literally next door and any argument about Idaho's market is nullified by the fact that the entire state is their market.

[MplsBison]

Endowments are a crude proxy for financial support. Financial support buys new uniforms, more extensive tutoring, and nicer dorms.

Yes, campuses and locations matter. There is a reason that Memphis and Texas Tech have relatively tough times recruiting.

Southern Idaho produces very few players with 3 stars or more. Which is the point - you can compete at the FCS level with 2 and 1-star players. Idaho is trying to fight BYU, BSU, Wazzou, and Utah for the former, and it can't win at that game. It has nothing to offer a three-star athlete that one or all of those schools can't match. But Idaho can successfully compete with Idaho State for the 1 and 2-star players that Boise State and BYU don't want. Idaho can offer a more attractive environment in a real college town and more academic support. And while U of I never even tried to compete in the FBS facilities arms race, they would find it much more feasible to out-build Idaho State.



So, I think academics do have an effect on recruitment, at the margins. Otherwise, Princeton wouldn't have been able to steal a recruit from UCF last year. And even if the effect's only marginal...all recruiting effects are marginal. Bigger weight rooms, better dining halls, louder stadiums - you recruit well by doing lots of things, not by finding a secret password.



If number of scholarships were the only factor in recruiting or in program success, I think you'd be right.


Endowments have specific uses, usually academic. I really doubt much if any of the endowment is being used to support Idaho athletics. The university's general fund probably writes a check once a year to the athletic department to bring them out of the red, as needed (if they can't find a donor to do it).

You *might* be able to convince me that a higher endowment means they'll have better luck getting donors for athletics, but again it'd be a tough sell. A lot of people who make it big and decide to donate back to the university had nothing to do with athletics.


You're wrong when it comes to the talent required to compete in the Big Sky. Obviously. They just lost to Eastern Washington. So now you're telling me that they'll be better able to compete with EW....because they moved down to the Big Sky and have less scholarships to offer??? Something is wrong with your argument there.


Scholarships aren't the only thing, but to a lot of kids it's the most important thing. If Idaho can offer a full while Idaho St can only offer a half, all other things being equal (which between the schools they basically are if the recruit doesn't know what he wants to study and would just be doing generals going into school) the scholarship is the deciding factor.

Now you bring Idaho down to the Big Sky, they can only offer that same half. Now how does the recruit make a decision? Might come down to something like distance from home, who he knows going there, etc.

[DSUrocks07]

Wazzou's in the Pac-12. That alone makes a huge difference.

But then that goes towards Mpls's point. How would that change as a member of the Big Sky?