NEW Patriot League member for 2013-14...

[Pard4Life]

Welcome Loyola-MD. We now have the best lacrosse conference in the NCAA, but it does not address our football concerns. Would have expected Fairfield, but still a Jesuit.

What does this do for our football expansion potential?

http://blogs.mcall.com/varsity/2012/08/the-patriot-league-has-another-new-member.html

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Worth a fresh read, from four years ago:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2008/06/next-patriot-league-member-loyola-md.html


Football-wise, 6,000 could be a nice number for FCS football in the Patriot League for five or six home games against Georgetown, Fordham, and Holy Cross. Nothing official has been said, but this dream artificial turf complex for lacrosse and soccer would be making more money by also hosting football games.

As late as 2006, it was speculated that at least one Loyola student was pushing to reinstate football.

[CFBfan]

Welcome Loyola-MD. We now have the best lacrosse conference in the NCAA, but it does not address our football concerns. Would have expected Fairfield, but still a Jesuit.

What does this do for our football expansion potential?

http://blogs.mcall.com/varsity/2012/08/the-patriot-league-has-another-new-member.html


is it me or does it seem intentional that the PL is adding NON football schools??

[Pard4Life]

is it me or does it seem intentional that the PL is adding NON football schools??

Yes they are and it is a bit disconcerting, but honestly, are there any legitimate candidates for full membership that play football aside from W&M and Richmond? The menu is much more comprehensive for non-football schools. It brings in an academically focused member, which is priority number one.

[Pard4Life]

LFN, I doubt Loyola wants to start football... plus they don't even have field hockey.

[dgreco]

Yes they are and it is a bit disconcerting, but honestly, are there any legitimate candidates for full membership that play football aside from W&M and Richmond? The menu is much more comprehensive for non-football schools. It brings in an academically focused member, which is priority number one.

I still wish Bryant ended up in the PL. In 2006-07 the school was too business school oriented, unfortunately, it looks like the time has passed to be considered a legitimate candidate.

[MplsBison]

This is an honest question because I really don't know.

Is Loyola the same "caliber" of school, when it comes to Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Lafayette??? Their endowment certainly doesn't suggest that. Even if BU is a giant, they have over a billion endowment, certainly putting them right up there with other big academics.

The academies are what they are. But even American has a $400 million endowment.

[DFW HOYA]

This is an honest question because I really don't know. Is Loyola the same "caliber" of school, when it comes to Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Lafayette???

No.

Total applicants: 12,066
Accepted: 7,651 (63% of applicants)
Enrolled: 1,071 (13% of accepted)

SAT Test Scores
Critical Reading: 540-640
Math: 560-650

ACT Composite Scores
25-28

Loyola's peer schools would be LaSalle, Catholic, Fairfield, Sacred Heart, and Quinnipiac.

[LUHawker]

Don't love it from an academic fit standpoint, but athletics and geography pretty good.

I think this addition confirms that there are effectively ZERO candidate schools out there that match up with the PL academically and the league has decided to shore up the athletics side with solid, but not great academic schools.

Still, this is becoming a very respectable, and importantly, stable league. Now, if only Villanova would slide over for FB.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Don't ignore the lacrosse side of things. The PL now further solidifies their strength in that sport quite a bit. Loyola is a national power in those sports.

[MplsBison]

Don't love it from an academic fit standpoint, but athletics and geography pretty good.

I think this addition confirms that there are effectively ZERO candidate schools out there that match up with the PL academically and the league has decided to shore up the athletics side with solid, but not great academic schools.

Still, this is becoming a very respectable, and importantly, stable league. Now, if only Villanova would slide over for FB.....

Just switch off the AI component for them (and Fordham, if you're going over to the control panel). Done.

[RichH2]

In lax, PL now solidly in top tier. Lax is the fastest growing sport now and one that is not an anathema to the academics. Smart move by PL to build lax now. Dont see that move hurts Fball expansion. If anything may make PL more attractive as one of the top leagues in the fastest growing sport. Nova comes to mind?

[LUHawker]

Just switch off the AI component for them (and Fordham, if you're going over to the control panel). Done.

FU and VU could accomodate the AI. Bigger issue for VU is redshirting......and Andy Talley.

[RichH2]

PL stated it wanted 10 full members. Got it now. Now football expansion not tied to full membership. As far as I am concerned that is a win win situation for us.

[MplsBison]

FU and VU could accomodate the AI. Bigger issue for VU is redshirting......and Andy Talley.

Oh sure, anyone could accommodate the AI once they cycle in new recruits that are benchmarked to that standard.

But why should they? If it's not making them more competitive, why should they switch conferences in a sport that doesn't draw national attention?

[van]

FU and VU could accomodate the AI. Bigger issue for VU is redshirting......and Andy Talley.

Amen, have wanted Nova football for some time, come on Andy get on board!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

An interesting possibility floated by a buddy of mine on Twitter: the MAAC adds Monmouth... and then the PL then takes them as a football-only member. Food for thought now that the "10th-full-member" issue has now been resolved.

[RichH2]

LFN
Interesting idea. But might Monmouth be too much of a stretch?

[aceinthehole]

An interesting possibility floated by a buddy of mine on Twitter: the MAAC adds Monmouth... and then the PL then takes them as a football-only member. Food for thought now that the "10th-full-member" issue has now been resolved.

Possible, but I would assume there would have to be very close cooperation between the MAAC and PL. Monmouth would have to have both offers at the same time, because they couldn't risk leaving for the MAAC only on the hope of a PL football invite. How likely is this?

This is basically the same scenario CCSU and/or Bryant would face with America East. CCSU/Bryant can't really join the AE unless it is given a home in CAA Football at the same time.

In that regard, Qunnipiac or Mount St. Mary's, both unburdened with football, are the more likely candidates to replace Loyola in the MAAC.

[GannonFan]

Amen, have wanted Nova football for some time, come on Andy get on board!

nova couldn't swing it financially. If they left the CAA and went to the PL they'd lose the UD game. If they ever played UD again it would only be in Newark and nova would lose the gate they get every other year from that game. And what tiny following they have would most certainly see a move from the CAA to the PL as a step down in football. If they ever seriously consider a move like that dropping football altogether is more likely.

[DFW HOYA]

In that regard, Qunnipiac or Mount St. Mary's, both unburdened with football, are the more likely candidates to replace Loyola in the MAAC.

The closest MAAC school to the Mount is Rider...and it's a long way from Emmitsburg to Niagara.

Don't forget NJIT.

[dgreco]

Don't forget NJIT.

I agree. I think NJIT might actually find itself a home.

[mainejeff]

Here's a novel concept...........how about Central Connecticut and Bryant join America East with an agreement in place that Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook will schedule them every season in football? Could they survive as Independents with 4 guaranteed games (2 home, 2 away) against CAA opponents every year?

[TheValleyRaider]

Unless one of these football-only plans is in the works, it looks like PL leadership feels pretty secure in Fordham and Georgetown staying aboard....

[MplsBison]

Here's a novel concept...........how about Central Connecticut and Bryant join America East with an agreement in place that Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook will schedule them every season in football? Could they survive as Independents with 4 guaranteed games (2 home, 2 away) against CAA opponents every year?

Or you do that and then throw in URI....sounds like a 7 team conference to me.

[aceinthehole]

The closest MAAC school to the Mount is Rider...and it's a long way from Emmitsburg to Niagara.

Don't forget NJIT.

Yep, but so was Baltimore-Niagara. The Mount (Emmitsburg, MD) is very close to the exsiting footprint of Loyola. Sure, the MAAC could choose to be more compact and remain very NY-centric, but the Mount has a very similar profile of many MAAC peers (Niagara, Canisius, Iona, Manhhattan). Similar academics, size, and of course Catholic affiliation.

Quinnipiac has a much bigger name and profile, to go along with a excellent hoops facility, so they are at the top of most MAAC exapnsion lists in that regard. They are considered a up and comming program (albiet one without any NCAA appearances).

I would argue, if the MAAC was going to approach a NEC school with football, Robert Morris actually makes better sense than Monmouth. The Colonials have been the top NEC basketball program for many years and have a longer history of success. Moon Township, PA is close to Buffalo-Niagara area and would expand into a "new market" - Pittsburg and Western PA. Bobby Mo would have to find a home for football, and like QU they are secular private, not Catholic like the majority of the MAAC. Does Rider and St. Pete's really want Monmouth in the MAAC?

[aceinthehole]

I agree. I think NJIT might actually find itself a home.

Yeah, likely in the NEC :(

[aceinthehole]

Here's a novel concept...........how about Central Connecticut and Bryant join America East with an agreement in place that Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook will schedule them every season in football? Could they survive as Independents with 4 guaranteed games (2 home, 2 away) against CAA opponents every year?

Nice idea, but it couldn't work.

First, those 4 AE/CAA teams would be giving up 2 of their 3 non-conf games EVERY YEAR. Their 3rd game is likely a FBS team. Do you really want to do that?

Second, CCSU/Bryant would lose their existing AQ and they would not be compete for conference preseason polls, individual conference awards, etc. A conference is more than just a schedule - it is stability for a program. I may not think the NEC is an ideal fit for CCSU, but it does sere its purpose. Central (and I presume Bryant, Monmouth, and RMU) would need that same stability somewhere else.

[mainejeff]

Or you do that and then throw in URI....sounds like a 7 team conference to me.

Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook have no reason to do that right now. :)

[MplsBison]

Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook have no reason to do that right now. :)

*shrug*

Get your own New England auto-bid. Not have to fight Delaware, JMU, W&M, Towson & Richmond for it.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here's a different thought. I'm not saying Loyola (MD) is planning to bring back football necessarily. But if they did, wouldn't it be a big help to Georgetown? It gives them a somewhat like institution to develop a rivalry in Patriot League, AI-style football. I'm not saying the WaPo will now make PL football front-page news, but it would certainly bring up the visibility of the sport in that region.

[dgreco]

*shrug*

Get your own New England auto-bid. Not have to fight Delaware, JMU, W&M, Towson & Richmond for it.

I think it is not a possibility, but I would love to see a New England-like conference that had Maine, UNH, URI, Albany, SBU, CCSU, Bryant +/- a few other schools.

[dgreco]

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/8/29/3276645/conference-realignment-loyola-patriot-league-maac

Speculation/Buzz about Bryant going to the MAAC, IDK how that would change Bryant's football affiliation though.

[mainejeff]

*shrug*

Get your own New England auto-bid. Not have to fight Delaware, JMU, W&M, Towson & Richmond for it.

But we want to fight (play) those schools for it.xpeacex

Drives you nuts, huh?xnodx;)

[GannonFan]

*shrug*

Get your own New England auto-bid. Not have to fight Delaware, JMU, W&M, Towson & Richmond for it.

CAA gets 4-5 teams in every year, and that will just be more so once the playoffs go to 24 teams. Why fight over 1 autobid when you can be part of a conference where the autobid is just a footnote because so many other conference teams get in the playoffs too? Getting 1 or 2 teams in from a 7 team conference doesn't seem as fruitful as up to 5 teams from an 11 team conference. The odds are much better with the latter.

[mainejeff]

I think it is not a possibility, but I would love to see a New England-like conference that had Maine, UNH, URI, Albany, SBU, CCSU, Bryant +/- a few other schools.

"A few other schools" = ????

THAT is the problem.

[mainejeff]

CAA gets 4-5 teams in every year, and that will just be more so once the playoffs go to 24 teams. Why fight over 1 autobid when you can be part of a conference where the autobid is just a footnote because so many other conference teams get in the playoffs too? Getting 1 or 2 teams in from a 7 team conference doesn't seem as fruitful as up to 5 teams from an 11 team conference. The odds are much better with the latter.

+1000

Plus.......why do we want to trade strong, long time rivals for those other programs???

[GannonFan]

+1000

Plus.......why do we want to trade strong, long time rivals for those other programs???

I agree. I know there's always barbs going back and forth on the message boards, but I've always found it easy to root for the likes of Maine and UNH in the playoffs, even when compared with schools like UMass or Hofstra that have moved on. Been playing those schools for quite a long time now, they're good schools, and they generally put out some pretty decent football teams. The CAA got to where it is today football-wise by pretty much every school in it raising their play and getting better. It's a pretty good place to be for football.

[mainejeff]

I agree. I know there's always barbs going back and forth on the message boards, but I've always found it easy to root for the likes of Maine and UNH in the playoffs, even when compared with schools like UMass or Hofstra that have moved on. Been playing those schools for quite a long time now, they're good schools, and they generally put out some pretty decent football teams. The CAA got to where it is today football-wise by pretty much every school in it raising their play and getting better. It's a pretty good place to be for football.

I know that I'll get crucified by some for saying this........but going forward, I really fell like Maine, UNH, Albany, Stony Brook, Delaware and Towson are the heart of CAA Football now. I really don't see those 6 programs moving away from this football model (whatever it may be called in the future). This statement has nothing to do with fan support, relative program strength, past success, etc.........just a gut feeling that those 6 schools are very comfortable with this set-up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

+1000

Plus.......why do we want to trade strong, long time rivals for those other programs???

Towson, JMU, William & Mary, Villanova = "rivals"? xconfusedx Let's not kid ourselves. The "strong, long-time rival" of Maine is UNH, and nobody is suggesting that you split that up.

Maine vs. "rival" Towson, 2010: Attendance: 5347
Towson vs. "rival" Maine, 2011: Attendance: 5258

[mainejeff]

Towson, JMU, William & Mary, Villanova = "rivals"? xconfusedx Let's not kid ourselves. The "strong, long-time rival" of Maine is UNH, and nobody is suggesting that you split that up.

Yes, rivals. You think that Maine and UNH officials and fans want to trade them for Bryant and Central Connecticut???xeyebrowx

[dgreco]

Yes, rivals. You think that Maine and UNH officials and fans want to trade them for Bryant and Central Connecticut???xeyebrowx

I think that is more hope from the Bryant/CCSU side. I think when URI surprisingly made the move to the NEC a lot of fans were hoping UNH/Maine were next because it is better to affiliate with those programs than the NEC ones. While I put Bryant towards the top of the list, small/average academic programs like Wagner, RMU, Monmouth, and Bryant are first choice affiliations. However, if Bryant and, presumably, CCSU could attach to State flagships that are also athletically well regarded (at least in FCS football) it is a major plus.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, rivals. You think that Maine and UNH officials and fans want to trade them for Bryant and Central Connecticut???xeyebrowx

Well, they can't help but outdraw "rival" Towson.

Maine vs. "rival" Towson, 2010: Attendance: 5347
Towson vs. "rival" Maine, 2011: Attendance: 5258

Let's just say that they equal the draw of Towson. Suddenly, you've created a bus trip where a chartered plane trip once existed... and kept the same gate.

[TheValleyRaider]

Wait...has a PL thread just been hijacked? A PL expansion thread, no less?

[RichH2]

This cannot be allowef. We are the Hijackers not the Hijackees.

[van]

Somebody start a CAA thread so we can hijack it!

[MplsBison]

CAA gets 4-5 teams in every year, and that will just be more so once the playoffs go to 24 teams. Why fight over 1 autobid when you can be part of a conference where the autobid is just a footnote because so many other conference teams get in the playoffs too? Getting 1 or 2 teams in from a 7 team conference doesn't seem as fruitful as up to 5 teams from an 11 team conference. The odds are much better with the latter.

It's the same number of bids either way, 5 from one group of 14 or 5 from two groups of 7.

The difference is of course that you only have one school in the single group that controls their own destiny versus two.

[MplsBison]

Yes, rivals. You think that Maine and UNH officials and fans want to trade them for Bryant and Central Connecticut???xeyebrowx

Really? How many people who go to Maine or UNH games know the difference? Maybe a few message board rubes.

They know the Maine UNH game is big and I'd be surprised if many others get as much buzz from the non-hardcore fans.

[carney2]

This sux! Things are deteriorating by the month. What's next, Lackawanna County Community College for JV volleyball and cross country?

[mainejeff]

Really? How many people who go to Maine or UNH games know the difference? Maybe a few message board rubes.

They know the Maine UNH game is big and I'd be surprised if many others get as much buzz from the non-hardcore fans.

Delaware, JMU, and Villanova.

W&M, Richmond and Towson.......not so much.

[MplsBison]

Delaware, JMU, and Villanova.

W&M, Richmond and Towson.......not so much.

Oh sure you're going to claim those three. How convenient for supporting your argument!

I bet not.

[Sader87]

Villanova will ultimately be an associate member in PL football....only a matter of time. Just makes way too much sense institutionally, geographically etc.

[LehighU11]

Don't love it from an academic fit standpoint, but athletics and geography pretty good.

I think this addition confirms that there are effectively ZERO candidate schools out there that match up with the PL academically and the league has decided to shore up the athletics side with solid, but not great academic schools.

Still, this is becoming a very respectable, and importantly, stable league. Now, if only Villanova would slide over for FB.....

Loyola has essentially the same academic stature as Villanova on the undergrad level, IMO. US News & World Report rankings would indicate that as well, placing the two at #3 and #1 respectively in the Northeast regional universities list. From an endowment perspective, Nova doesn't match up with PL figures either and is twice as large as Loyola. All of the Loyola students and alumni I've known were certainly of PL caliber academically. Can't say the same about Villanova undergrads.

I like the addition to the PL and see Loyola as another solid new member. Strong lax and men's soccer programs will benefit the conference.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Don't believe everything that you read:



The MAAC should start looking quickly for a team that could replace Loyola. Possible teams to look at are Fordham, which was an inaugural member of the conference and then moved to the Atlantic 10 . . .

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1315335-conference-realignment-loyola-md-greyhounds-to-join-patriot-league-in-2013

xsmhx

[DFW HOYA]

Villanova will ultimately be an associate member in PL football....only a matter of time. Just makes way too much sense institutionally, geographically etc.

Why would Villanova accede to the Ivy Index when they don't have to?

By the same point, one could argue Fordham will ultimately be an associate member in CAA football....only a matter of time.

[RichH2]

Loyola has essentially the same academic stature as Villanova on the undergrad level, IMO. US News & World Report rankings would indicate that as well, placing the two at #3 and #1 respectively in the Northeast regional universities list. From an endowment perspective, Nova doesn't match up with PL figures either and is twice as large as Loyola. All of the Loyola students and alumni I've known were certainly of PL caliber academically. Can't say the same about Villanova undergrads.

I like the addition to the PL and see Loyola as another solid new member. Strong lax and men's soccer programs will benefit the conference.

Well said. But given the tenor of most here much to much reliance on real facts as opposed to flights of fantasy or for some doom and gloom.

[Sader87]

Why would Villanova accede to the Ivy Index when they don't have to?

By the same point, one could argue Fordham will ultimately be an associate member in CAA football....only a matter of time.

A football league that has Georgetown, Fordham and Holy Cross will ultimately make more sense to VU than a league that has Towson, URI and Stony Brook as members. Just sayin'....it's not going to happen over night but it will happen eventually.

[DFW HOYA]

A football league that has Georgetown, Fordham and Holy Cross will ultimately make more sense to VU than a league that has Towson, URI and Stony Brook as members. Just sayin'....it's not going to happen over night but it will happen eventually.

Maybe, but there's no guarantee Fordham and Georgetown will be still playing in the same league to see it.

And remember, were it not for some stalling from Pitt in the 2011 Big East summer meetings as a means to destabilize the Big East upon its exit, the Wildcats might have been gearing up for such well known Main Line rivals as Memphis, Central Florida, and San Diego State instead.

[ngineer]

PL stated it wanted 10 full members. Got it now. Now football expansion not tied to full membership. As far as I am concerned that is a win win situation for us.

Yes, Andy Coen was asked about this at the football luncheon today. He said the League is still actively searching for at least one additional school to associate in football, and that a 10-12 team conference would be ideal and make scheduling a lot easier. So unless a W&M, Richmond or VU is ready to slide up to the PL, then I see the options for a football only association remain, but I don't know who would be left in that scenario.

[ngineer]

Villanova will ultimately be an associate member in PL football....only a matter of time. Just makes way too much sense institutionally, geographically etc.

Just need Talley to leave.

[Sader87]

Who knows.....VU could drop football again. All I'm saying is that if Villanova continues to play football at the FCS level, given their following/support (which is less than probably at least a couple PL football schools now) etc, membership in the Patriot League makes a lot more sense than being in a league like the CAA which is primarily made up of state universities that really don't share Villanova's make-up institutionally.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If Delaware seceded from the Union, or the Hens went to the MAC, perhaps Villanova might consider it. Until then, it's not happening.

[LUHawker]

Loyola has essentially the same academic stature as Villanova on the undergrad level, IMO. US News & World Report rankings would indicate that as well, placing the two at #3 and #1 respectively in the Northeast regional universities list. From an endowment perspective, Nova doesn't match up with PL figures either and is twice as large as Loyola. All of the Loyola students and alumni I've known were certainly of PL caliber academically. Can't say the same about Villanova undergrads.


I like the addition to the PL and see Loyola as another solid new member. Strong lax and men's soccer programs will benefit the conference.

Sorry 11, can't agree with you that Loyola is of PL caliber, acdemically. LoyU not a bad fit for athletics, just not a great fit for the overall League profile.

[Pard4Life]

So Coen says that the PL is trying to become a super league? 12 teams would be a little crazy.

If Loyola joins, does that open up the door for Vermont and Fairfield? Again, there are very few schools out there that remotely fit the PL profile.

MIT and JHU are content in D3. W&M and Richmond will not give up the high profile CAA and A10, and are probably the only two that closely fit into the PL profile. VMI does not fit on a variety of levels.

Associate football membership is just as limited. Outside of a disaffected CAA team, who else fits the PL?

[carney2]

So Coen says that the PL is trying to become a super league? 12 teams would be a little crazy.

If Loyola joins, does that open up the door for Vermont and Fairfield? Again, there are very few schools out there that remotely fit the PL profile.

MIT and JHU are content in D3. W&M and Richmond will not give up the high profile CAA and A10, and are probably the only two that closely fit into the PL profile. VMI does not fit on a variety of levels.

Associate football membership is just as limited. Outside of a disaffected CAA team, who else fits the PL?

That pretty well sums it up. Apparently the Center Valley crowd has reached the same conclusion and has decided that dumpster diving is their only alternative. It's good that the stable is apparently full (mixing metaphors) because the next stop after Boston University and Loyola is truly unthinkable.

[DFW HOYA]

It's good that the stable is apparently full (mixing metaphors) because the next stop after Boston University and Loyola is truly unthinkable.

Rider? Binghamton? NJIT?

[aceinthehole]

What are PL fans thoughts on the decision to add Loyola (MD) instead of Marist?

- Is Loyola a much better PL 'academic fit' than Marist?
- Was Marist unwilling/unable/not ready to step up to PL football funding?
- Is MLax more valuable to the PL than Football?

Just wondering ...

[DFW HOYA]

What are PL fans thoughts on the decision to add Loyola (MD) instead of Marist?

Is Loyola a much better PL 'academic fit' than Marist?
Perceptions wise, yes.

Was Marist unwilling/unable/not ready to step up to PL football funding?
Georgetown fits this description, and they were still added.

Is MLax more valuable to the PL than Football?
It appears that way.

[NHwildEcat]

Here's a novel concept...........how about Central Connecticut and Bryant join America East with an agreement in place that Maine, UNH, Albany and Stony Brook will schedule them every season in football? Could they survive as Independents with 4 guaranteed games (2 home, 2 away) against CAA opponents every year?

That would mean very little flexibilty for the AE football schools though...we would have our 8 conference games and then 2 auto games with CCSU & Bryant...leaves us with 1 OOC...

[RichH2]

Lax is the mover now. BU required to add lax to join. Super conference? 12 ? Where are we going to find 2 more full. Unless, of course CAA fractures or we go south to pick at SoCon. Other choices may not be " dumpster diving" but would dilute academic aspect of PL

[Franks Tanks]

Sorry 11, can't agree with you that Loyola is of PL caliber, acdemically. LoyU not a bad fit for athletics, just not a great fit for the overall League profile.

I tend to agree with you. Loyola apears to attract quality students and produces successful alums, but they are a bit below even previous outliers like Boston U and American. I do think Loyola is a cultural fit however (which American and Boston U lack to an extent). I believe they attract students that look very much like a typical PL student body-- mostly white and upper class (for better or worse). I believe you will see plenty of pink pants wearing double collar popped bros at Loyola just like at the rest of our campuses.

[UNH Fanboi]

Well, they can't help but outdraw "rival" Towson.

Maine vs. "rival" Towson, 2010: Attendance: 5347
Towson vs. "rival" Maine, 2011: Attendance: 5258

Let's just say that they equal the draw of Towson. Suddenly, you've created a bus trip where a chartered plane trip once existed... and kept the same gate.

So you picked historically the worst draw in the CAA as a comparison? We've developed apme very good rivalries with Delaware, W&M and Villanova that can draw fans assuming the weather isnt crappy. UNH had almost 15,000 fans for their 2009 game against Villanova.

[carney2]

What are PL fans thoughts on the decision to add Loyola (MD) instead of Marist?

If you had asked a week ago I would have said that either one puts me on a suicide watch. Now we have the very ugly reality that the last three all sports members are American, Boston U and Loyola. Go ahead, Carolyn Schlie Femovich, just rip my heart out. The trend of this thing points to exactly the Rider, Binghamton, NJIT trifecta that DFW mentioned. The trend is now defined as

Acceptance rates of 60%+
No football.

The 60/40 female/male ratio at Loyola should be playing well in the faculty lounge at Lafayette where they want to turn the school into a little girlie institution.

I'll get back to you if I come up with a firm opinion on this absolutely disgusting Loyola thing. As a Lafayette grad I can only say that I just want to hit someone with my purse.

[RichH2]

See Carney that is why Pards added gender studies so you would be comfortable wih your fashion choices.

[carney2]

See Carney that is why Pards added gender studies so you would be comfortable wih your fashion choices.

And they put us in fashion hell with those godawful uniforms at last year's Lehigh game. You'd think that, with the way things are going on College Hell, we'd at least look gorgeous.

Some of the faithful think they were great throw back uniforms. They weren't throw back, they were throw up.

[MplsBison]

Who knows.....VU could drop football again. All I'm saying is that if Villanova continues to play football at the FCS level, given their following/support (which is less than probably at least a couple PL football schools now) etc, membership in the Patriot League makes a lot more sense than being in a league like the CAA which is primarily made up of state universities that really don't share Villanova's make-up institutionally.

Very few people in the national college sports scene will be associating Villanova with Towson, URI and Stony Brook. Villanova is a Big East school on the national scene.

At the end of the day, Lacrosse probably gets more national exposure than I-AA football (or it will in the next 5-10 years). It simply doesn't matter to many people outside of alumni of those schools who care about football.


Therefore, for a sport like that, why make a lateral conference move that won't save you any money and will make you less competitive? Zero sense. It'd be an entirely different thing if we were talking about all-sports membership, but of course we're not.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And they put us in fashion hell with those godawful uniforms at last year's Lehigh game. You'd think that, with the way things are going on College Hell, we'd at least look gorgeous.

Some of the faithful think they were great throw back uniforms. They weren't throw back, they were throw up.

+1. On the bright side, at least they weren't pink.

[MplsBison]

That would mean very little flexibilty for the AE football schools though...we would have our 8 conference games and then 2 auto games with CCSU & Bryant...leaves us with 1 OOC...

Which is why it makes more sense to have a 7 team NE football conference, with it's own auto-bid and then have a 2 or 3 game scheduling alliance with the remaining CAA teams. You get your claimed 'rivalry' games with Virginia/Mid-Atlantic teams without having to fight them for a single auto bid.

[MplsBison]

Lax is the mover now. BU required to add lax to join. Super conference? 12 ? Where are we going to find 2 more full. Unless, of course CAA fractures or we go south to pick at SoCon. Other choices may not be " dumpster diving" but would dilute academic aspect of PL

On the other hand -- what about the idea that the critical mass of the PL academic perception is to a point where not only will it not be hurt by adding Loyola, but it will actually help drag Loyola UP to that level?

In the vein that the academic Big 10 dragged Penn St up to that level and will be doing the same thing for Nebraska.

[UNH Fanboi]

Which is why it makes more sense to have a 7 team NE football conference, with it's own auto-bid and then have a 2 or 3 game scheduling alliance with the remaining CAA teams. You get your claimed 'rivalry' games with Virginia/Mid-Atlantic teams without having to fight them for a single auto bid.

The single autobid is irrelevant. The CAA is guaranteed at least 4 playoff teams every year.

[carney2]

+1. On the bright side, at least they weren't pink.

And grey on gray wasn't bad enough?! Rumor has it that it will be mauve and teal this year. Matching handbags for the non-starters to look sharp on the sidelines. Color coordinated kid gloves if it's cold.

[MplsBison]

The single autobid is irrelevant. The CAA is guaranteed at least 4 playoff teams every year.

And the NE conf + the CAA would also get 4 playoff teams every year.

Point is, would you rather be a guaranteed 1 of 7 or 1 of 14? Those loses to JMU, Delaware, etc. won't hurt your chances at the auto. I bet your coach would agree with me instead of you!

[ccd494]

Towson, JMU, William & Mary, Villanova = "rivals"? xconfusedx Let's not kid ourselves. The "strong, long-time rival" of Maine is UNH, and nobody is suggesting that you split that up.

Maine vs. "rival" Towson, 2010: Attendance: 5347
Towson vs. "rival" Maine, 2011: Attendance: 5258

Wrong comparison...

Towson @ Maine, 2011: 5,258

UNH @ Maine, 2010: 6,531

There isn't a scenario out there, short of Maine being undefeated on October 20, against UNH, on homecoming, that is going to move the needle to get 10,000 into Alfond to see a Maine football game. The elastic band of attendance is 5-7,000, no matter the opponent. Coincidentally, thats roughly the hockey attendance now too.

[dgreco]

Wrong comparison...

Towson @ Maine, 2011: 5,258

UNH @ Maine, 2010: 6,531

There isn't a scenario out there, short of Maine being undefeated on October 20, against UNH, on homecoming, that is going to move the needle to get 10,000 into Alfond to see a Maine football game. The elastic band of attendance is 5-7,000, no matter the opponent. Coincidentally, thats roughly the hockey attendance now too.

Bryant @ Maine, 2011: 6,041

[mainejeff]

Oh sure you're going to claim those three. How convenient for supporting your argument!

I bet not.

WTF are you talking about??? The excitement among fans for those 3 is more than the other 3. Sorry that you are such a simpleton and cannot comprehend that.

[mainejeff]

That would mean very little flexibilty for the AE football schools though...we would have our 8 conference games and then 2 auto games with CCSU & Bryant...leaves us with 1 OOC...

Is that a bad thing? Ensures 2 games with the 2 programs that most likely will fill the OOC schedules of those teams in most years. UNH having to decide between Dartmouth or an FBS team is the only real fly in the ointment that I see.

[MplsBison]

WTF are you talking about??? The excitement among fans for those 3 is more than the other 3. Sorry that you are such a simpleton and cannot comprehend that.

Really??? You may want to check out the post by another Maine fan...



Wrong comparison...

Towson @ Maine, 2011: 5,258

UNH @ Maine, 2010: 6,531

There isn't a scenario out there, short of Maine being undefeated on October 20, against UNH, on homecoming, that is going to move the needle to get 10,000 into Alfond to see a Maine football game. The elastic band of attendance is 5-7,000, no matter the opponent. Coincidentally, thats roughly the hockey attendance now too.

[UNH Fanboi]

And the NE conf + the CAA would also get 4 playoff teams every year.

Point is, would you rather be a guaranteed 1 of 7 or 1 of 14? Those loses to JMU, Delaware, etc. won't hurt your chances at the auto. I bet your coach would agree with me instead of you!

I happen to know for a fact that our coach prefers to be in the top conference in FCS rather than a mediocre NE conference. Delaware, Villanova and Richmond have been in the same conference as us since the 80s. JMU and W&M since the early 90s. Why would we want to leave them? The additions of Stony Brook and Albany and readdition of URI were likely largely due to UNH and Maine's desire to save their place in the CAA.

[MplsBison]

I happen to know for a fact that our coach prefers to be in the top conference in FCS rather than a mediocre NE conference. Delaware, Villanova and Richmond have been in the same conference as us since the 80s. JMU and W&M since the early 90s. Why would we want to leave them? The additions of Stony Brook and Albany and readdition of URI were likely largely due to UNH and Maine's desire to save their place in the CAA.

You can and would still play all those teams. You just wouldn't be fighting them for an autobid. I don't see why that's hard to understand.

Your coach prefers that loses to Delaware, JMU, Richmond, W&M prevent UNH from earning a guaranteed spot in the playoffs? I highly doubt it.

[carney2]

I happen to know for a fact that our coach prefers to be in the top conference in FCS rather than a mediocre NE conference. Delaware, Villanova and Richmond have been in the same conference as us since the 80s. JMU and W&M since the early 90s. Why would we want to leave them? The additions of Stony Brook and Albany and readdition of URI were likely largely due to UNH and Maine's desire to save their place in the CAA.

The additions of Stony Brook and Albany to the CAA were huge, but getting Rhode Island to go 180 and stay in place was the final nail. UNH and Maine will no longer be all alone on a CAA map that goes north of Philadelphia. No need at the moment for either of these schools to answer the phone when other conferences call.

[UNH Fanboi]

You can and would still play all those teams. You just wouldn't be fighting them for an autobid. I don't see why that's hard to understand.

Your coach prefers that loses to Delaware, JMU, Richmond, W&M prevent UNH from earning a guaranteed spot in the playoffs? I highly doubt it.

There are other reasons for being in a conference other than the autobid. Would you want NDSU to join the MEAC and win the autobid every year?

[MplsBison]

The additions of Stony Brook and Albany to the CAA were huge, but getting Rhode Island to go 180 and stay in place was the final nail. UNH and Maine will no longer be all alone on a CAA map that goes north of Philadelphia. No need at the moment for either of these schools to answer the phone when other conferences call.

There are not other conferences of the CAA's caliber that would be calling them. PL isn't equivalent because of the AI.

I'm proposing that with a couple more "good" programs in the fold, URI, UNH, Maine, Stony and Albany could just as well form their own New England conference, have their own autobid and still play the CAA 'rivals' (you know, the ones that draw up to 7k at Maine) in a scheduling agreement.

[MplsBison]

There are other reasons for being in a conference other than the autobid. Would you want NDSU to join the MEAC and win the autobid every year?

No, of course not. That's an apples to broccoli comparison.

A NE conf would be consolidating teams in the same geographic region. The MEAC is about as far flung from the north central US as you can get.

[UNH Fanboi]

No, of course not. That's an apples to broccoli comparison.

A NE conf would be consolidating teams in the same geographic region. The MEAC is about as far flung from the north central US as you can get.

Take a look at UNH's roster. There are a ton of kids from the mid-atlantic. Playing mid-Atlantic teams is good for recruiting. The extra travel costs are not that big of a deal.

[Go...gate]

Yes they are and it is a bit disconcerting, but honestly, are there any legitimate candidates for full membership that play football aside from W&M and Richmond? The menu is much more comprehensive for non-football schools. It brings in an academically focused member, which is priority number one.

I am ashamed to say I don't know enough about their academic profile. I am sure, as Jesuit school, it is good, but where do they stack up against the rest of the conference?

[Go...gate]

Don't love it from an academic fit standpoint, but athletics and geography pretty good.

I think this addition confirms that there are effectively ZERO candidate schools out there that match up with the PL academically and the league has decided to shore up the athletics side with solid, but not great academic schools.

Still, this is becoming a very respectable, and importantly, stable league. Now, if only Villanova would slide over for FB.....

Agreed. Now, what is this I read about Monmouth as a football member?

[dgreco]

Take a look at UNH's roster. There are a ton of kids from the mid-atlantic. Playing mid-Atlantic teams is good for recruiting. The extra travel costs are not that big of a deal.

So do schools like Bryant, but they have never played Mid-Atlantic/South-Atlantic schools. Of course the caliber of athletes you get is higher (more scholarships/history etc.), but being in the CAA isn't the only way to tap, or continue to tap, into that market for recruits.

[Go...gate]

This is an honest question because I really don't know.

Is Loyola the same "caliber" of school, when it comes to Bucknell, Lehigh, Colgate, Holy Cross and Lafayette??? Their endowment certainly doesn't suggest that. Even if BU is a giant, they have over a billion endowment, certainly putting them right up there with other big academics.

The academies are what they are. But even American has a $400 million endowment.

IMO, no.

Though they seem to be moving in the right direction, to wit:

http://www.loyola.edu/Media/News/2012/0820-princeton-review-best-colleges-ranking.aspx

[UNH Fanboi]

There are not other conferences of the CAA's caliber that would be calling them. PL isn't equivalent because of the AI.

I'm proposing that with a couple more "good" programs in the fold, URI, UNH, Maine, Stony and Albany could just as well form their own New England conference, have their own autobid and still play the CAA 'rivals' (you know, the ones that draw up to 7k at Maine) in a scheduling agreement.

Also, good luck with us getting home games vs JMU and Delware when we're in another conference. Delaware only plays home body bag games OOC.

[MplsBison]

Also, good luck with us getting home games vs JMU and Delware when we're in another conference. Delaware only plays home body bag games OOC.

That's because they count on 8 CAA conference games every year. If the CAA was reduced to 7 teams (UD, VU, Tow, JMU, W&M, Rich and one new member, let's say Youngstown xnodx ) then that's only 6 conf games. They'd need at least 2 games a year from the NE conf. That'd be two alternating home/homes every two years.

[heath]

Since the new direction of the PL is to become a lacrosse powerhouse,:D,and football now is taking a backseat because YOU guys finally figured out that playoff success(National Champs) will never be obtainable-Go after Hopkins. A great fit academically,LAX,and a DIII football program that would compete in the PLxthumbsupx Problem solved.That would then give you 2 LAX teams that have won a championship to hang your hats on. Leave the football to conferences that give a damn.

[MplsBison]

Take a look at UNH's roster. There are a ton of kids from the mid-atlantic. Playing mid-Atlantic teams is good for recruiting. The extra travel costs are not that big of a deal.

Ok, that's a new point you've sprung out at the last second - but a fair point. One that I could sort've buy. But as the Bryant fan pointed out, not necessary.

Plus you would still get down there at least once a year.

[MplsBison]

Since the new direction of the PL is to become a lacrosse powerhouse,:D,and football now is taking a backseat because YOU guys finally figured out that playoff success(National Champs) will never be obtainable-Go after Hopkins. A great fit academically,LAX,and a DIII football program that would compete in the PLxthumbsupx Problem solved.That would then give you 2 LAX teams that have won a championship to hang your hats on. Leave the football to conferences that give a damn.

Out of morbid curiosity, what would it take to convince Hopkins - or MIT for that matter - to move athletics to division I?

[Go...gate]

Since the new direction of the PL is to become a lacrosse powerhouse,:D,and football now is taking a backseat because YOU guys finally figured out that playoff success(National Champs) will never be obtainable-Go after Hopkins. A great fit academically,LAX,and a DIII football program that would compete in the PLxthumbsupx Problem solved.That would then give you 2 LAX teams that have won a championship to hang your hats on. Leave the football to conferences that give a damn.

Say what? We just went scholarship, for Pete's sake.

[heath]

Say what? We just went scholarship, for Pete's sake.

If Georgetown is on board with schollies(not really),then why not Hopkins?Georgetown plays football on a DIII field,right? Other than basketball,they mirror one another.xtwocentsx

[RichH2]

Dont let Heath annoy you Gate . As he himself admits his posts are only worth 2 cents.

[TheValleyRaider]

Since the new direction of the PL is to become a lacrosse powerhouse,:D,and football now is taking a backseat because YOU guys finally figured out that playoff success(National Champs) will never be obtainable-Go after Hopkins. A great fit academically,LAX,and a DIII football program that would compete in the PLxthumbsupx Problem solved.That would then give you 2 LAX teams that have won a championship to hang your hats on. Leave the football to conferences that give a damn.

Aside from the whole D-III thing, Hopkins would actually be a great choice especially considering they actually have a football team, unlike our two newest members (3, really, since American is actually the most recent to actually join)

[Pard4Life]

The 60/40 female/male ratio at Loyola should be playing well in the faculty lounge at Lafayette where they want to turn the school into a little girlie institution.

Whoa-hey-whoa now wait a minute.... that ratio isn't a bad thing! xrotatehx

[DFW HOYA]

If Georgetown is on board with schollies(not really),then why not Hopkins? Georgetown plays football on a DIII field,right?

Not sure what a "D-III" field is. Anyway, it's better than playing on the roof of a building, which the Hoyas did while in D-III.

Really.

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/4767521241_f5dde918a8.jpg

[Ken_Z]

Dont let Heath annoy you Gate . As he himself admits his posts are only worth 2 cents.

still grossly overestimating their value

[RichH2]

So true Z.

[Pard4Life]

I put together a little, but imperfect, PL expansion dossier.

The criteria for adding new Patriot League teams is pretty obvious now. As Frank Tavani said, with regard to scheduling teams: "Scheduling is very difficult. It is hard to find like-minded schools who do what we do." I think we can narrow down any potential new PL members:

Look at the language in the releases of the new schools. The Presidents' paramount interests are:

1) academically focused schools
2) strong academic profile or growing profile
3) outstanding graduation rates
4) Private institutions
5) Liberal arts
6) 95 corridor/Northeast/Mid-Atlantic
7) lacrosse

We can really narrow it down to a few schools:
(data is the latest available, GSR = graduation success rate, APR = academic progress rate, meaning your teams have students who are getting good grades etc., with team awards meaning they are in the top 10% of their sport)

For example, Lafayette's GSR is 97 and I didn't count the APR awards, but I know it's a few dozen.

Benchmark of the Newbies:
A) Boston U: 93 GSR, about 30 APR awards, soccer had a 67 GSR, otherwise like a PL program
- #53 national university, 58% admin rate, $1b endowment, 80% 4yr grad rate, one of the premier 'name' and academic schools in the nation; BUT mega-research-like university with no football and lacrosse program (until 2014)
B) Loyola: 96 GSR, over 40 APR awards, m lax had the "lowest" GSR: 89.
- #3 regional north university, 55% admin rate, 76% 4-yr grad rate, $140mm endowment, 'old' university, Jesuit connection to Fordham, HC and close to American, Navy, Lafayette, Lehigh, it's expensive, NCAA national champion in m lax; BUT is it exactly 'high profile' and strong academically?

Hot List:
A) Fairfield, GSR: 97; about 30 APR awards
- #2 regional north university (Loyola is 3, Nova 1), strong liberal arts focus, $223mm endowment, 80% 4-yr grad rate, Jesuit affiliation with Fordham, HC, close to BU, HC, m lax program is strong, BUT 71% admin rate

B) Marist, GSR: 90, but basketball in the high 70s, low 80s; about 30 APR awards
- #13 regional north university, 37.5% admin rate, 73% 4-yr grad rate, $120mm endowment, football, close HC, BosU, "Gate" (only b/c it's in NY); BUT do they want to move from the Pioneer League, where they seem content, and "downgrade" their men's and women's hoops program, weak lax

Remote possibilities:

A) Vermont: 95 GSR, 14 APR awards
- strong liberal arts, "like" a private school, BosU rivalry, 82 nationally, $267mm endowment, BUT state school, 71% admin rate, 61% 4yr grad rate - are they a strong enough academic school overall for the Patriot League? mediocre men's lax

B) Wagner College: 87 GSR, 4 APR awards
- strong liberal arts school and one of the only ones in this region that directly markets to that effect, 21 national regional university, and they are sized like Lafayette (2200), but they have a very small endowment ($51mm), a 60% 4-yr grad rate and high admin rate, cupcake lax

C) VMI: 69 GSR, no APR awards - only because of Army, Navy, and their small size, but forget it otherwise

D) Hofstra: 85 GSR, 7 APR awards, one being basketball
- Does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? Otherwise I cannot see anything in their profile to fit the PL, power lax team

E) Northeastern, 80 GSR very poor in men's sports i.e. track is highest and the only men's sport in the 80s; women are better but still two programs in the 60s, 70s; 14 APR awards
- #62 national university, 37% admin rate, $521mm endowment, rivalry with BosU in the city; BUT does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? And it is a research university, but so is BosU, so..? Northeastern reads alot like Drexel. And they eliminated football.

F) Drexel: 90 GSR, some non-power sports dragged the average (like crew, soccer, tennis); basketball was 100; 13 APR awards, several are M Bball.
- endowment $427mm, 55% admin rate, great co-op and professional programs, #88 nationally, power lacrosse program; BUT does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? Research school...

G) Manhattan, 89 GSR, but Men's Soccer, Basketball and Golf (?) are in the 60s-70s; 9 APR awards
- engineering, they are on that payscale.com list, but otherwise nothing outstanding for PL, cupcake lax

Football Associate Members - all have high GSRs i.e. 90+ so I won't list them, and their academic credentials are well known here:
A) Richmond
B) William & Mary
C) Villanova

Also interesting: There are only a handful of football teams that received an NCAA APR public recognition award since 2004, meaning they were in the top 10% of the sport. Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and Colgate appear several times. Gerogetown and Fordham, oddly, appears once and Lehigh none at all (shocking :sarcasm... all those Phys Ed. majors).

Prospective members appear: Villanova (5), Richmond (3), W&M (5). To satisfy LFN, UNH appears 4 times and Maine once. Northeastern appeared once. The list is pretty exclusive to FCS, as others that appear multiple times are Dayton, Furman, Wofford, Davidson, and Samford. Some "odd" ones that appear once are ASU, EKU, and Presby.

ps: just realized every school in the MAAC except Rider has a Catholic affiliation

Conclusion:
Outside of Fairfield and Marist, there are not ANY other schools that fit the recent criteria for Patriot League full-time membership. These new members will be meeting as presidents, not athletic directors, where academic concerns and missions are paramount. They will be viewing each other's institutions as equal peers. I've listed some remote possibilities, but they remain just that -- Vermont, Northeastern, and Drexel come anywhere close to meeting PL prospective criteria. I would really be surprised if Fairfield and the PL do not speak with each other based on the data and their institutional composition.

Football membership, outside of Marist, is non-existent unless the CAA undergoes an earthquake. It's difficult to see Richmond, Villanova, and W&M leaving their current, high-profile leagues. All three would instantly transform the PL into a power conference, but if just one moves to the PL, it does not become a power league. And I can't imagine Richmond and W&M not moving together based on their eternal football relationships (think Lafayette-Lehigh). The NEC teams do not have the profile to join the PL -- Towson was the only PL football team that never fit the traditional mold and were not content, so certainly an NEC will not be invited. Dayton would be a great associate member based on their academic profile, but they are in Ohio and seem content in the Pioneer.

John's Hopkins 'could' join the Patriot League, but why? They would have to endure a tournament to earn a playoff berth. They are practically the Notre Dame of the lacrosse world -- they host the lacrosse hall of fame, and their homecoming is in the spring, during a lacrosse game. The process of elevating sports to D-I is costly and time consuming, and does not seem logical. The same holds true for MIT. That said, JHU and MIT and probably the most high-profile, largest, and well-endowed universities in the nation not in Division I.

It feels weird listing this now, but the Patriot League is:

American
Army
Boston University
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Loyola
Navy

I guess we can finally beat up on the Ivy in a numbers fight. But like them, I guess you can 'pompously' call the Patriot League core Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh.

[Pard4Life]

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4120/4767521241_f5dde918a8.jpg

If you don't stare at it really hard, it almost looks like MSF with worn out Field Turf!

[Go...gate]

I put together a little, but imperfect, PL expansion dossier.

The criteria for adding new Patriot League teams is pretty obvious now. As Frank Tavani said, with regard to scheduling teams: "Scheduling is very difficult. It is hard to find like-minded schools who do what we do." I think we can narrow down any potential new PL members:

Look at the language in the releases of the new schools. The Presidents' paramount interests are:

1) academically focused schools
2) strong academic profile or growing profile
3) outstanding graduation rates
4) Private institutions
5) Liberal arts
6) 95 corridor/Northeast/Mid-Atlantic
7) lacrosse

We can really narrow it down to a few schools:
(data is the latest available, GSR = graduation success rate, APR = academic progress rate, meaning your teams have students who are getting good grades etc., with team awards meaning they are in the top 10% of their sport)

For example, Lafayette's GSR is 97 and I didn't count the APR awards, but I know it's a few dozen.

Benchmark of the Newbies:
A) Boston U: 93 GSR, about 30 APR awards, soccer had a 67 GSR, otherwise like a PL program
- #53 national university, 58% admin rate, $1b endowment, 80% 4yr grad rate, one of the premier 'name' and academic schools in the nation; BUT mega-research-like university with no football and lacrosse program (until 2014)
B) Loyola: 96 GSR, over 40 APR awards, m lax had the "lowest" GSR: 89.
- #3 regional north university, 55% admin rate, 76% 4-yr grad rate, $140mm endowment, 'old' university, Jesuit connection to Fordham, HC and close to American, Navy, Lafayette, Lehigh, it's expensive, NCAA national champion in m lax; BUT is it exactly 'high profile' and strong academically?

Hot List:
A) Fairfield, GSR: 97; about 30 APR awards
- #2 regional north university (Loyola is 3, Nova 1), strong liberal arts focus, $223mm endowment, 80% 4-yr grad rate, Jesuit affiliation with Fordham, HC, close to BU, HC, m lax program is strong, BUT 71% admin rate

B) Marist, GSR: 90, but basketball in the high 70s, low 80s; about 30 APR awards
- #13 regional north university, 37.5% admin rate, 73% 4-yr grad rate, $120mm endowment, football, close HC, BosU, "Gate" (only b/c it's in NY); BUT do they want to move from the Pioneer League, where they seem content, and "downgrade" their men's and women's hoops program, weak lax

Remote possibilities:

A) Vermont: 95 GSR, 14 APR awards
- strong liberal arts, "like" a private school, BosU rivalry, 82 nationally, $267mm endowment, BUT state school, 71% admin rate, 61% 4yr grad rate - are they a strong enough academic school overall for the Patriot League? mediocre men's lax

B) Wagner College: 87 GSR, 4 APR awards
- strong liberal arts school and one of the only ones in this region that directly markets to that effect, 21 national regional university, and they are sized like Lafayette (2200), but they have a very small endowment ($51mm), a 60% 4-yr grad rate and high admin rate, cupcake lax

C) VMI: 69 GSR, no APR awards - only because of Army, Navy, and their small size, but forget it otherwise

D) Hofstra: 85 GSR, 7 APR awards, one being basketball
- Does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? Otherwise I cannot see anything in their profile to fit the PL, power lax team

E) Northeastern, 80 GSR very poor in men's sports i.e. track is highest and the only men's sport in the 80s; women are better but still two programs in the 60s, 70s; 14 APR awards
- #62 national university, 37% admin rate, $521mm endowment, rivalry with BosU in the city; BUT does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? And it is a research university, but so is BosU, so..? Northeastern reads alot like Drexel. And they eliminated football.

F) Drexel: 90 GSR, some non-power sports dragged the average (like crew, soccer, tennis); basketball was 100; 13 APR awards, several are M Bball.
- endowment $427mm, 55% admin rate, great co-op and professional programs, #88 nationally, power lacrosse program; BUT does basketball want to 'downgrade' out of arguably the highest profile non-BCS league? Research school...

G) Manhattan, 89 GSR, but Men's Soccer, Basketball and Golf (?) are in the 60s-70s; 9 APR awards
- engineering, they are on that payscale.com list, but otherwise nothing outstanding for PL, cupcake lax

Football Associate Members - all have high GSRs i.e. 90+ so I won't list them, and their academic credentials are well known here:
A) Richmond
B) William & Mary
C) Villanova

Also interesting: There are only a handful of football teams that received an NCAA APR public recognition award since 2004, meaning they were in the top 10% of the sport. Bucknell, Lafayette, Holy Cross, and Colgate appear several times. Gerogetown and Fordham, oddly, appears once and Lehigh none at all (shocking :sarcasm... all those Phys Ed. majors).

Prospective members appear: Villanova (5), Richmond (3), W&M (5). To satisfy LFN, UNH appears 4 times and Maine once. Northeastern appeared once. The list is pretty exclusive to FCS, as others that appear multiple times are Dayton, Furman, Wofford, Davidson, and Samford. Some "odd" ones that appear once are ASU, EKU, and Presby.

ps: just realized every school in the MAAC except Rider has a Catholic affiliation

Conclusion:
Outside of Fairfield and Marist, there are not ANY other schools that fit the recent criteria for Patriot League full-time membership. These new members will be meeting as presidents, not athletic directors, where academic concerns and missions are paramount. They will be viewing each other's institutions as equal peers. I've listed some remote possibilities, but they remain just that -- Vermont, Northeastern, and Drexel come anywhere close to meeting PL prospective criteria. I would really be surprised if Fairfield and the PL do not speak with each other based on the data and their institutional composition.

Football membership, outside of Marist, is non-existent unless the CAA undergoes an earthquake. It's difficult to see Richmond, Villanova, and W&M leaving their current, high-profile leagues. All three would instantly transform the PL into a power conference, but if just one moves to the PL, it does not become a power league. And I can't imagine Richmond and W&M not moving together based on their eternal football relationships (think Lafayette-Lehigh). The NEC teams do not have the profile to join the PL -- Towson was the only PL football team that never fit the traditional mold and were not content, so certainly an NEC will not be invited. Dayton would be a great associate member based on their academic profile, but they are in Ohio and seem content in the Pioneer.

John's Hopkins 'could' join the Patriot League, but why? They would have to endure a tournament to earn a playoff berth. They are practically the Notre Dame of the lacrosse world -- they host the lacrosse hall of fame, and their homecoming is in the spring, during a lacrosse game. The process of elevating sports to D-I is costly and time consuming, and does not seem logical. The same holds true for MIT. That said, JHU and MIT and probably the most high-profile, largest, and well-endowed universities in the nation not in Division I.

It feels weird listing this now, but the Patriot League is:

American
Army
Boston University
Bucknell
Colgate
Holy Cross
Lafayette
Lehigh
Loyola
Navy

I guess we can finally beat up on the Ivy in a numbers fight. But like them, I guess you can 'pompously' call the Patriot League core Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh.

Outstanding post. I believe your #2 criteria is increasingly salient in the eyes of the PL's Prexies.

[RichH2]

P4L great post great clarity to an increasingly silly pile. of speculation. Thanks

[Pard4Life]

Thanks Gate and R2.. just trying to give this some objective analysis. Alot of fantasy talk has been thrown around so I wanted to see what's practical.

Will we stop at 10? Anything beyond 12 may seem unruly from a policy and cohesion perspective. It's hard to know why the other institutions are thinking, but Fairfield has to be a top candidate. Northeastern seems like a good fit, but their athletics program has issues data wise.

[Engineer86]

Since the new direction of the PL is to become a lacrosse powerhouse,:D,and football now is taking a backseat because YOU guys finally figured out that playoff success(National Champs) will never be obtainable-Go after Hopkins. A great fit academically,LAX,and a DIII football program that would compete in the PLxthumbsupx Problem solved.That would then give you 2 LAX teams that have won a championship to hang your hats on. Leave the football to conferences that give a damn.

Roll in your line and troll somewhere else xthumbsupx

[Engineer86]

P4L, did you look at Bryant? Great post just curious where they would fit on the scale?

[dgreco]

P4L, did you look at Bryant? Great post just curious where they would fit on the scale?

I was wondering the same. Not a liberal arts university (but growing that part if the university and adding new undergrad and masters programs in the liberal arts umbrella), plus they have both a good lacrosse and a decent football program.

[RichH2]

Bryant building well starting to shed its image as a glorified business school.

[MplsBison]

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind or the way things are done, but why in the heck does admission rate have anything to do with anything????

Look, if I was wealthy enough and bitter enough - I could pay off 20% of the lowest qualified applications who would normally apply to say, Lehigh, and make them not apply there. Whoops, there goes your admission ratio - sky high! Did anything actually change? Of course no. So why does it matter?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind or the way things are done, but why in the heck does admission rate have anything to do with anything????

Look, if I was wealthy enough and bitter enough - I could pay off 20% of the lowest qualified applications who would normally apply to say, Lehigh, and make them not apply there. Whoops, there goes your admission ratio - sky high! Did anything actually change? Of course no. So why does it matter?

Yes, of course, that's what's happening. Wealthly alums are buying out the worst applicants to up lower their acceptance ratio. Why didn't I see it sooner?

[Pard4Life]

P4L, did you look at Bryant? Great post just curious where they would fit on the scale?

In retrospect, I forgot to add them to the list! That said, I didn't miss anyone else.

Bryant: GSR 85, 22 APR awards, one APR award was for football in 2010, but the GSR as as low as 69 in 2000 before climbing to 85
- #16 regional north university, $126mm endowment, 72% 4-yr grad rate, one the scale of Bucknell i.e. 3300 students, integrated liberal arts with business, FOOTBALL, rapidly rising lacrosse program (probably the strongest 'mid-major' out there, next to Fairfield), admin rate went from 70% to 45% recently; close to HC, BosU; BUT new DI program, they seemingly almost went out of business in the 1990s, does it have 'name brand' cachet to be apart of the league?

[Pard4Life]

If I had to "rank" schools likely to join the PL at this point in time:

Fairfield
...
Marist
Bryant
....
...
Vermont
Northeastern
....
...
Villanova, Richmond/William Mary (packaged duo) football only
...
Drexel
...
Wagner
Hofstra
Manhattan
VMI

[Pard4Life]

I know I'm not going to change anyone's mind or the way things are done, but why in the heck does admission rate have anything to do with anything????

Look, if I was wealthy enough and bitter enough - I could pay off 20% of the lowest qualified applications who would normally apply to say, Lehigh, and make them not apply there. Whoops, there goes your admission ratio - sky high! Did anything actually change? Of course no. So why does it matter?

I'll chip in some funds, a marketing coup!

I agree the admission rate is somewhat ridiculous, but it makes a case for 'quality' and 'exclusivity,' so a lower admission rate shows that you are a quality school and in high demand i.e. supply/demand. The PL want like-minded schools, so admission rate will likely play some part in the discussion, though not directly.

[MplsBison]

I'll chip in some funds, a marketing coup!

I agree the admission rate is somewhat ridiculous, but it makes a case for 'quality' and 'exclusivity,' so a lower admission rate shows that you are a quality school and in high demand i.e. supply/demand. The PL want like-minded schools, so admission rate will likely play some part in the discussion, though not directly.

It just reeks of accounting fraud, to me.

Say Lafayette doesn't like how the admission ratio is shaping up this year (too high). Well ok, just submit 1000 bogus applications that would never be accepted. Ah, much better now.

[RichH2]

Wow this thread has devolved. Hopefully someone will hijack it.

[dgreco]

If I had to "rank" schools likely to join the PL at this point in time:

Fairfield
...
Marist
Bryant
....
...
Vermont
Northeastern
....
...
Villanova, Richmond/William Mary (packaged duo) football only
...
Drexel
...
Wagner
Hofstra
Manhattan
VMI

It would be nice if FB and Lacrosse made Bryant a strong candidate. I would love to see Bryant move to the PL. I think most students would too. When I was a senior when Bryant announced the transition to DI most students made a point to question the schools plans (specifically, move to a good academic DI conference-mainly the PL and not increase enrollment by that much). I do not know what student sentiment is now, but I know a lot of alums from 2007-2010 feel that way and are a vocal part of the alumni groups.

[Pard4Life]

Why not, here are the prospective football members:

A) Richmond: 94 overall, 92 football, 3 APR (football only)
- #27 national liberal arts (Bucknell's level... FORMERLY Lafayette's level before this administration), $1.6 bn+ endowment, 33% admin rate, 3000 students, 81% 4 yr grad rate, 9:1 student-teacher ratio, recent national champions; BUT distance is a concern if Gtown leaves and they play in the best CAA conference - why move?


B) William & Mary: 93 overall, 88 football, 5 APR (football only)
- #33 national university, 32% admin rate, $540mm endowment, 82% 4yr grad rate, 5900 students, although it's a 'state school' its the premier state-assisted liberal arts university, second oldest to Harvard, small classes 12:1, basically like a core PL member; BUT it's in southern VA and why move from the premier football and basketball conference? (even though you are not competitive)


C) Villanova 94 overall, 90 football, 5 APR (football only)
- #1 northern regional university, 45% admin rate, $303mm endowment, 85% 4yr graduation rate, 12:1 class size, 7200 undergrads so it's like American, Jesuit like HC, Fordham, Gtown, academic cirriculum structured very much like Lehigh i.e. liberal arts, engineering, business school, close to LC, LU, BU, Gtown, Fordham ie half the league recent national champion; BUT it is in the premier football conference, contemplating moving to FBS, and thinks like an FBS/Big East school overall despite having a profile like Fordham and Lehigh. They would be ideal for PL membership overall but that's unrealistic.

All three of these schools are comparable to PL institutions in various ways, and their academic ratings are higher than Lehigh (85 overall, 70 football), the bottom PL team. Their academic ciriculums are no less challenging.

[Pard4Life]

It just reeks of accounting fraud, to me.

Say Lafayette doesn't like how the admission ratio is shaping up this year (too high). Well ok, just submit 1000 bogus applications that would never be accepted. Ah, much better now.

Schools have tried to manipulate their admissions data. Once found out, the rankings gods and others in academia make things very difficult. But, I suspect schools do this in other ways... solict students who have no chance of being admitted to jack up the stats.

[MplsBison]

Schools have tried to manipulate their admissions data. Once found out, the rankings gods and others in academia make things very difficult. But, I suspect schools do this in other ways... solict students who have no chance of being admitted to jack up the stats.

Ok, well at least if it's generally regarded as an illegitimate stat - then I can live with it's continued usage.

[RichH2]

Thanks Babar. Good try.

[Pard4Life]

Thanks Babar. Good try.

You need to practice your hi-jacking skills... it means gently changing the subject to something relevant to your team or league, or just something else entirely.

Example: transitioning to talking about how an expanded PL affects Ivy scheduling, and then talk about this year's PL-Ivy match-up as others join in.

[RichH2]

Excellent and concise definition of a hijack. By the way, what do you think Harvard will do about their cooperating football players in exam scandal?

[Pard4Life]

Excellent and concise definition of a hijack. By the way, what do you think Harvard will do about their cooperating football players in exam scandal?

Were they involved? Ivy board wasn't certain. If so, they will probably be suspended a year like the NY Times said would happen to those involved. The professor was asking for it. A take-home exam?? What do you expect? Kids work in groups. Just have them write a paper instead. You learn more.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Duquesne as a fb-only associate?

[Pard4Life]

No clue. We suspend students every year for honor code violations but this sounds - from the NYT, which is the only place I've read about it - like a weird mess involving bad communication from teachers and real questions about class expectations. If I were on a committee, it would be tough for me to recommend stripping degrees from people who honestly thought they were allowed to collaborate, and were doing so openly, with no attempt to conceal it. But obviously, I don't know all the facts, and the facts may be much worse than the Times reports. It wouldn't be the first time a large group got slammed. Numbers =/= safety.

In other words, this is nowhere near as bad as the Army cheating scandal in the 1950s. If the professor wanted to allow the students to collaborate on an open-book test and hand in separate assignments, HE must be the one who goes before a committee.

... ps now we are in hi-jack territory xrotatehx

[RichH2]

Gee took you guys lomg enuf to acknowledge the jack. Boy somtimes I even annoy myself.

[Pard4Life]

Duquesne as a fb-only associate?

Duquesne: 81 GSR, 67 GSR for football, 18 APR awards; it was 88 GSR overall in 1998 but declined from there... not exactly PL-like, even by Lehigh standards.

[Pard4Life]

Gee took you guys lomg enuf to acknowledge the jack. Boy somtimes I even annoy myself.

Tell me about it... must be some acquired skill one gains at South Mountain. :D

[RichH2]

Actually picked it up from PFL guys who kept doing it to us. Your.right about LU football video coverage. It truly sucks. No where near Pard video.

[Pard4Life]

I wasn't even looking for video... just a nice and simple interactive play tracker and stat board, not a ticker feed of a hard-to-follow play-by-play.

[Pard4Life]

The group under investigation is big enough that this could mean a lot of players suspended. And even if nobody's suspended this has the potential to be a huge stressor for players as their cases are decided. They lost a good chunk of their coaching staff in the offseason - at this point I don't see how they're the favorite over Penn and Cornell. Could be an easy pick-up over a ranked team for HC, too.

The NY Times had more information on this case... it is a real mess and sounds like it is the professor's own doing. Like I suspected, the 'take home exam' concept creates much ambiguity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/01/education/students-of-harvard-cheating-scandal-say-group-work-was-accepted.html?_r=1&ref=us

I never had a cupcake course like this at Lafayette at the 100 level.

[Go...gate]

In other words, this is nowhere near as bad as the Army cheating scandal in the 1950s. If the professor wanted to allow the students to collaborate on an open-book test and hand in separate assignments, HE must be the one who goes before a committee.

... ps now we are in hi-jack territory xrotatehx

USMA had another one in the mid-1970's, too, though in that one, only a handful of football players were involved as a proportion of the Cadet student body. The one in the 1950's utterly gutted the football program.

[Go...gate]

Getting back to Loyola (MD) in the PL....

Loyola's admission is definitely getting a mixed reaction from those affiliated with Colgate, and IMO, rightly so.

If one consults the 2013 Barron's Guide to American Colleges, which is a much older (and, IMO, much more reliable) source than USN&WR for college and university ratings, one finds that USMA, Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, MIT and USNA are all in the highest ("Most Competitive") category of schools, accepting generally no more than 10-20% of applications). That is a total of seven of the "All-Sports" and one of the "Associate" Members (not to mention all five of the Founding Members). American (All-Sports), Boston University (All-Sports) and Fordham (Associate) are in the second highest, or "Highly Competitive" category, accepting no more than 20-35% of applicants. Loyola is in the third highest, or "Very Competitive" category, and accepts no more than 35-50% of applicants.

So concern about Loyola's admission has basis in fact, not perception or snobbery.

[bison137]

Getting back to Loyola (MD) in the PL....

Loyola's admission is definitely getting a mixed reaction from those affiliated with Colgate, and IMO, rightly so.

If one consults the 2013 Barron's Guide to American Colleges, which is a much older (and, IMO, much more reliable) source than USN&WR for college and university ratings, one finds that USMA, Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, MIT and USNA are all in the highest ("Most Competitive") category of schools, accepting generally no more than 10-20% of applications). That is a total of seven of the "All-Sports" and one of the "Associate" Members (not to mention all five of the Founding Members). American (All-Sports), Boston University (All-Sports) and Fordham (Associate) are in the second highest, or "Highly Competitive" category, accepting no more than 20-35% of applicants. Loyola is in the third highest, or "Very Competitive" category, and accepts no more than 35-50% of applicants.

So concern about Loyola's admission has basis in fact, not perception or snobbery.



Just to correct the record, virtually all of the stats cited above are inaccurate. For a couple of examples, Bucknell's acceptance rate is 27% and Colgate's is 29% - not 10-20% as stated above. Also, Lehigh, Lafayette, and Holy Cross are all in the 30's. American is around 40% and Fordham is well over 40%. Etc.

[Dane96]

nm

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Getting back to Loyola (MD) in the PL....

Loyola's admission is definitely getting a mixed reaction from those affiliated with Colgate, and IMO, rightly so.

If one consults the 2013 Barron's Guide to American Colleges, which is a much older (and, IMO, much more reliable) source than USN&WR for college and university ratings, one finds that USMA, Bucknell, Colgate, Georgetown, Holy Cross, Lafayette, Lehigh, MIT and USNA are all in the highest ("Most Competitive") category of schools, accepting generally no more than 10-20% of applications). That is a total of seven of the "All-Sports" and one of the "Associate" Members (not to mention all five of the Founding Members). American (All-Sports), Boston University (All-Sports) and Fordham (Associate) are in the second highest, or "Highly Competitive" category, accepting no more than 20-35% of applicants. Loyola is in the third highest, or "Very Competitive" category, and accepts no more than 35-50% of applicants.

So concern about Loyola's admission has basis in fact, not perception or snobbery.

This leads back to that old discussion point, though: "So, who exactly is Patriot League material?" The Ivies aren't calling. Villanova and William & Mary aren't calling. Rutgers isn't calling. RPI and MIT are not going to transition. The NESCAC's are never going to transition.

If the PL was going to sit around and only wait for "Highly Competitive" or above schools to join, the PL might not even exist. Fortunately, the PL presidents were more forward-thinking than that, and agreed that both BU and Loyola did indeed fit the bill.

[Go...gate]

Just to correct the record, virtually all of the stats cited above are inaccurate. For a couple of examples, Bucknell's acceptance rate is 27% and Colgate's is 29% - not 10-20% as stated above. Also, Lehigh, Lafayette, and Holy Cross are all in the 30's. American is around 40% and Fordham is well over 40%. Etc.

Yes, and you said this on the Colgate board. Please take your point up with Barron's Guides.

The issue is whether Loyola belongs in the PL, and if so, by what standard.

[bison137]

Yes, and you said this on the Colgate board. Please take your point up with Barron's Guides.

The issue is whether Loyola belongs in the PL, and if so, by what standard.


Yes, and you also posted incorrect numbers on the Colgate board. If you post acceptance stats that are incorrect by significant amounts, then that is an issue. Can't even debate the academics if all the numbers are wrong.

[Go...gate]

Yes, and you also posted incorrect numbers on the Colgate board. If you post acceptance stats that are incorrect by significant amounts, then that is an issue. Can't even debate the academics if all the numbers are wrong.

Bison 137, I'm not trying to start a fight here. As I said on the Colgate board as well, I posted numbers from what I believed to be a reliable source.

It was in no way intentional and, if that is what you are inferring, you are way out of line.

Again, how about the bigger issue?

[Go...gate]

This leads back to that old discussion point, though: "So, who exactly is Patriot League material?" The Ivies aren't calling. Villanova and William & Mary aren't calling. Rutgers isn't calling. RPI and MIT are not going to transition. The NESCAC's are never going to transition.

If the PL was going to sit around and only wait for "Highly Competitive" or above schools to join, the PL might not even exist. Fortunately, the PL presidents were more forward-thinking than that, and agreed that both BU and Loyola did indeed fit the bill.

In Loyola's case, "forward-thinking" waters down the conference brand.

[alvinkayak6]

Invite Notre Dame. xrotatehx

[Go...gate]

For a couple of years in the Charlie Weis era, it seemed like ND football would have its hands full with PL teams. :Dxrotatehx:p

[Pard4Life]

This leads back to that old discussion point, though: "So, who exactly is Patriot League material?" The Ivies aren't calling. Villanova and William & Mary aren't calling. Rutgers isn't calling. RPI and MIT are not going to transition. The NESCAC's are never going to transition.

If the PL was going to sit around and only wait for "Highly Competitive" or above schools to join, the PL might not even exist. Fortunately, the PL presidents were more forward-thinking than that, and agreed that both BU and Loyola did indeed fit the bill.

See my post a few pages ago:

1) academically focused schools
2) strong academic profile or growing profile
3) outstanding graduation rates
4) Private institutions
5) Liberal arts
6) 95 corridor/Northeast/Mid-Atlantic
7) lacrosse