America East Football

[danefan]

OK OK OK, I know AE Fooball is sort of a taboo around here, but yesterday was the UAlbany Football Alumni Association Golf Outing and a major topic of discussion was AE Football.

Putting a sense of reality to this situation was the display indicating the schools:
Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
New Hampshire
UMass
Rhode Island
Hofstra

Also the Assistant AD said that while the schools were hoping for the league to come to fruition in 2007, the reality of the situation is that the CAA will not allow it to happen until 2008. This is not just a pipe dream anymore, the school presidents and AD's met last week in Saratoga Springs, NY to work only on the new football league.

[rokamortis]

OK OK OK, I know AE Fooball is sort of a taboo around here, but yesterday was the UAlbany Football Alumni Association Golf Outing and a major topic of discussion was AE Football.

Putting a sense of reality to this situation was the display indicating the schools:
Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
New Hampshire
UMass
Rhode Island
Hofstra

Also the Assistant AD said that while the schools were hoping for the league to come to fruition in 2007, the reality of the situation is that the CAA will not allow it to happen until 2008. This is not just a pipe dream anymore, the school presidents and AD's met last week in Saratoga Springs, NY to work only on the new football league.

I hope it works out for all of them. it really makes sense to split from the CAA.

Now ... I wonder if the CAA would want a school near Myrtle Beach ... ? :smiley_wi

[TheValleyRaider]

OK OK OK, I know AE Fooball is sort of a taboo around here, but yesterday was the UAlbany Football Alumni Association Golf Outing and a major topic of discussion was AE Football.

Putting a sense of reality to this situation was the display indicating the schools:
Albany
Stony Brook
Maine
New Hampshire
UMass
Rhode Island
Hofstra

Also the Assistant AD said that while the schools were hoping for the league to come to fruition in 2007, the reality of the situation is that the CAA will not allow it to happen until 2008. This is not just a pipe dream anymore, the school presidents and AD's met last week in Saratoga Springs, NY to work only on the new football league.

When you say that, do you mean Pres. and AD from all 7 of those schools, or just say UA and SB with invitations for the others?

And as likely as it may seem for another eastern Conference to form, I don't quite understand Hofstra leaving the CAA (it's all-sports conference) just to be different in football again. But then again, what do I know?

[DFW HOYA]

Hofstra would be the only private school in that model.

Makes you wonder why Northeastern isn't in the mix, though. If they're the only northern CAA school left, they would stand a bit isolated.

[MplsBison]

Why doesn't U Vermont have football anymore?

I'd think they'd have a HUGE rivalry with both Maine and New Hampshire. And there isn't even any instate competition from an Ivy like UNH has in Dartmouth.


I wish they'd grow a sack and get football back.



And how about Binghampton? If Albany and SB can do it, why not them as well?

[Sly Fox]

Now ... I wonder if the CAA would want a school near Myrtle Beach ... ? :smiley_wi

Come on, Rok. We all know they'd prefer a team in Virginia for travel purposes.

:thumbsup:

[TheValleyRaider]

Why doesn't U Vermont have football anymore?

I'd think they'd have a HUGE rivalry with both Maine and New Hampshire. And there isn't even any instate competition from an Ivy like UNH has in Dartmouth.

UVM not having football is pretty much related to the facts that 1) they stunk and 2) no one really cared. At least, that's what I've gathered from prior discussions on the board. As much as I'd like to see the Catamounts on the field, there's no reason to believe they'd be making the commitment any time soon.


And how about Binghampton? If Albany and SB can do it, why not them as well?

Binghamton is an interesting case, and if they're really interested in raising their national profile, I could see them doing a study and building a team. I have no idea what their space concerns are though (do they have a place to build a stadium?) or if they have the money to, but I think they have the population to make it feasible.

[rokamortis]

Come on, Rok. We all know they'd prefer a team in Virginia for travel purposes.

:thumbsup:

Nah - they want a school with a southern feel that would be next door to UNCW. Travel would be killer for us, but a lot of our alumni come from that area.

[Sly Fox]

Let's let CCU stay drooling over the SoCon so we can focus on the CAA.

Now back to your previously scheduled America East postulations.

[Go...gate]

This arrangement makes sense for a lot of reasons, especially travel costs. It is great to be far-flung, but only to a certain extent. Remember LaSalle basketball in the Mid-Continent Conference?

I think even the big conferences are going to feel the $$ pinch.

[Marcus Garvey]

Why doesn't U Vermont have football anymore?

I'd think they'd have a HUGE rivalry with both Maine and New Hampshire. And there isn't even any instate competition from an Ivy like UNH has in Dartmouth.

I wish they'd grow a sack and get football back.


This has been beaten to death in other posts, particularly last summer. They dropped in '74. Historically, the program sucked balls. They're the only original Yankee Conf. member to NEVER win a title. High School football is also negligible in Vermont. As a result, UVM's recruiting base overlapped into areas with more successful programs such as UNH, Maine and UMass. Dartmouth wasn't a recruiting rival back then, as the Big Green was D-I, while the Yankee schools were DII. It's not an issue of "growing a sack." There's not much support for a football team at UVM, so why waste money?

As it stands, only two schools play football in Vermont: Middlebury and Norwich, both DIII. Catamount football is highly unlikely to ever happen.

[MplsBison]

Thanks for the post. I understand what everyone has probably posted about for years.

But I still think it's rediculous that U VM doesn't have football with U NH and U ME.

I wish a big donor would step up and just say "to hell with you" to everyone and blow the lid off the whole deal. Upgraded stadium, pactice facilities, the whole works.


If you build it, they will come (recruits).

If you win, they will come (fans).

[WMTribe90]

Northeastern and/or Hofstra are not going to leave the CAA, an all-sports conference, with a higher basketball and football (at least at the start) profile than the AE. I'm not sure I see UMass switching either.

[danefan]

When you say that, do you mean Pres. and AD from all 7 of those schools, or just say UA and SB with invitations for the others?

It was phrased that the AD's and Presidents from the prospective schools met. The America East meeting was last week also, so maybe he meant just those already members of the AE for everything else. I'll try to find out who exactly was there and let you know.

The theory behind splitting from the CAA was the want of a smaller conference and closer geographic ties.

[RadMann]

I'd be surprised if the Hofstra admin would make such a public display of an intention to leave the CAA even if they were contemplating it. That would be showing one's hand. It does not sound plausible, at least not in terms of Hofstra. Just my opinion.....

[Uncle Buck]

Gotta agree as well, i just couldn't see HU moving to a new conference at this time. The CAA is now all sports and we seem to be pretty competitive. I think a lot would have to happen for the move to be worth it.

[henfan]

Links, anyone?

I've yet to find even one post-summer AEC meeting article anywhere in the NE press. Odd for such groundbreaking news.

[UNH_ORACLE]

If UVM had a team, Ball would be bringing them to the NC championship game this year, UNH should be thankful UVM has no football! Waste of money? What football program isn't a waste of money?

[Pard4Life]

Thanks for the post. I understand what everyone has probably posted about for years.

But I still think it's rediculous that U VM doesn't have football with U NH and U ME.

I wish a big donor would step up and just say "to hell with you" to everyone and blow the lid off the whole deal. Upgraded stadium, pactice facilities, the whole works.


If you build it, they will come (recruits).

If you win, they will come (fans).

The demograhpics of Burlington have change quite dramatically since UVM dropped football. You would definetely get fans in the stands. They have the Vermont Lake Monsters (Expos) on campus don't they? Football could be a major sport there, like hockey. Basketball I am guessing will flame out since Brennan is gone.

[UAalum72]

Links, anyone?

I've yet to find even one post-summer AEC meeting article anywhere in the NE press. Odd for such groundbreaking news.
If they were only discussions/planning sessions, as part of the AE meeting, I wouldn't expect any press releases yet.

[henfan]

If they were only discussions/planning sessions, as part of the AE meeting, I wouldn't expect any press releases yet.

Agreed re an official press release, though you'd think if the AEC were seriously discussing its own FB league that someone in the NE press would have at least mentioned it in an article. As it was, not a single word was published in the wake of the Saratoga Springs meetings two weeks ago.

While the A-10 and CAA leagues were forming, just about every fit and start was documented by someone, somewhere in the media, even if it was only a brief mention. These discussions typically find their way into the press long before they actually happen.

[UAalum72]

That presumes some interest in the local press. In Saratoga and Albany they're only concerned that the horse racing season opens in a week.

The America East release http://www.americaeast.com/local/2006/071206.htm only mentions the election of chairs for the league Board of Presidents and Council of Athletic Directors

[aceinthehole]

Northeastern and/or Hofstra are not going to leave the CAA, an all-sports conference, with a higher basketball and football (at least at the start) profile than the AE. I'm not sure I see UMass switching either.


Well I personally hope something like this is really starting to happen, but I agree that I still have not seen any evidence or even a logical theory as to why Hofstra (or Northeastern) would leave the CAA for the AE.

1. No way the CAA allows Hofstra and/or NU to play in the AE as a FB only member, so this presumes an all-sports membership for the former AE and current CAA school. This is very crazy to me.

Now its become clear that Hofstra is willing to schedule both Stony Brook and Albany as OOC games in a home and home serise. This would provide short travel for an OOC game and makes much sense for HU. So again, why does Hofstra need to join that new conference when I'm sure all potential new AE members would be willing (and fighting) to schedule Hofstra as an OOC game?

2. UMass and URI and much more likely to be interested in this conference as FB-only members. They would be joined by Maine and UNH and would avoid some of the long travel for CAA games. All 4 teams could easily maintain OOC games with CAA members. Clearly, this would be a huge and good step for the SUNY programs. This six core teams is very reasonable and makes a lot of sense. I can see why this is a goal of the AE schools.


Now personally, I hope there is real truth to the AE football proposal. For me, I'm hoping it would open an invite to CCSU, who is strongly rumored to be planning an announcement on expansion of its football facility (up to about 8K capacity) by year end. I'm also hoping, Central will make some progress in moving to full I-AA scholarships in upcoming seasons, but that is yet to be seen.

[henfan]

Ace, where is CCSU now with equivalancies? Aren't they somewhere around 20-25?

You guys are pretty lucky to have landed a guy like Tom Masella. He's a keeper.

[Fordham]

thank you

[henfan]

Oops, that's right. I forgot that Masella's moved closer to home. :rotateh:

[aceinthehole]

Ace, where is CCSU now with equivalancies? Aren't they somewhere around 20-25?

You guys are pretty lucky to have landed a guy like Tom Masella. He's a keeper.


I know, tell those Fordham guys! He's a keeper, we couldn't keep. (In fairness he's a New Yorker with strong ties to the city. He turned our program around and if we can keep moving in the same direction, I'll be very happy)

Honestly, I'm not exactly sure where we are with equivs. That is something not readily shared by school officials. I think that we are closer to 15-20, but I may be off. Certainly, we spread that aid over many more players to get the most bank for our buck. Also, don't forget in-state tutition (with room and board) at Central is only about $14K.

According to our most recent US Dept of Ed report we spent $801k on football, but that amount DOES NOT include grants-in-aid to FB players, becasue its not "athletically related." That number is burried in our overall figure for financial aid to all students.

By comparision, Southern Conn. (DII) reported $640k in FB expenses, but that number should include their scholarships. Also, NEC FB-only members Albany and Stony Brook reported FB expenses (also not including player grants) of $739k and $895k respectively.

So we are in line with the SUNYs at this moment, the question is will will keep up and move to full I-AA scholly? Hopefully I'll have some better answers by the end of this season.

[colgate13]

According to our most recent US Dept of Ed report we spent $801k on football, but that amount DOES NOT include grants-in-aid to FB players, becasue its not "athletically related." That number is burried in our overall figure for financial aid to all students.


I don't think that's accurate, ace. The amount IMO DOES include the need-based grants given to FB players because of athletic talent. This is exactly how the PL does it (and how the NEC did it before this fall). The number is reported. :twocents:

[aceinthehole]

I don't think that's accurate, ace. The amount IMO DOES include the need-based grants given to FB players because of athletic talent. This is exactly how the PL does it (and how the NEC did it before this fall). The number is reported. :twocents:


gate13 - Don't get me wrong, I'm not very confident in any of the numbers reported on that website. (How do certain schools spend exactly what the raise in revenue? Many smaller schools appear to not break out revenue by sport, becasue things like advertisment deals are department wide revenue.)


Regardless, I still think I disagree with you. I do not think the FB "expense" number listed for NEC teams include their grant-in-aid. Simply becase the aid is officially NOT based on talent, but need. I know, I know ... I'm not naive enough to think that the players aren't recurited based on FB talent, but the official policy is the amount of aid given to players is based soley on the federal FAR (Financial aid report), in other words it is awarded on
need-only basis.

For example:
If Adam gets a need-based aid of 5k per year to play football at CCSU and his twin brother Bill gets the same 5k need-based aid just to attend the school, why is Adam's aid reported as "athletic?" In essence, isn't he just a walk-on who got 5K in aid due to his family's finances.

The only way this amount could be "counted" is if their was a specific contract between the school and the student, that the aid is totally contengient on his participation on the FB team. As far as I know, up untill this season NEC schools did not participate ain the NLI program for football. But I could be wrong here.

---
So what you are saying is according to these numbers Colgate and Lehigh are spending about $2+ million more on football in "athletic aid" than NEC couterparts CCSU, UA, and SBU are already spending on aid?

Expenses from US Dept of Ed reports:

Colgate: MBB $1.5m; FB $3.3m
Lehigh: MBB $1.7m; FB $3.0m
G-town: MBB $5.3M; FB $1.3m

CCSU: MBB $1.7m; FB $801k
Albany: MBB $1.5m; FB $739k
SBU: MBB $2.1m; FB $895k

If we can agree that these PL schools and the NEC have roughly the same non-player costs, such as coaches salaries, equipment, bus trips, etc. then this difference can only be "player aid," right?

So, 50 PL "player aid packages" at $50k each comes to $2.5 million. Are you saying that this amount is the difference between some PL and NEC schools?

If so, then 50 "schollys" at CCSU or the SUNYs is only going to cost us 750k more. That is not a big deal in the scheme of things, and is one reason why I belive our existing player costs are "hidden" among all university expenses. If "stepping up" is only going to cost CCSU, UA, and SBU about $750k a year, then its a no brainer IMO.

[colgate13]

gate13 - Don't get me wrong, I'm not very confident in any of the numbers reported on that website. (How do certain schools spend exactly what the raise in revenue? Many smaller schools appear to not break out revenue by sport, becasue things like advertisment deals are department wide revenue.)
How a school chooses to report revenue is one thing, but in terms of expenses I think it's in the ball park.


Regardless, I still think I disagree with you. I do not think the FB "expense" number listed for NEC teams include their grant-in-aid. Simply becase the aid is officially NOT based on talent, but need. I know, I know ... I'm not naive enough to think that the players aren't recurited based on FB talent, but the official policy is the amount of aid given to players is based soley on the federal FAR (Financial aid report), in other words it is awarded on
need-only basis.
If the NEC is like the PL as I thought (before scholarships), the aid might be need-based, but qualifying for the grant to meet need award is based on athletic talent. It's need based grant given soley because the student plays football.


For example:
If Adam gets a need-based aid of 5k per year to play football at CCSU and his twin brother Bill gets the same 5k need-based aid just to attend the school, why is Adam's aid reported as "athletic?" In essence, isn't he just a walk-on who got 5K in aid due to his family's finances.
If Adam's 5K is a $5,000 grant and Bill's is a $2,625 loan and a $2,375 work-study job, then Adam's getting a football grant to meet need package. That counts as athletic.


The only way this amount could be "counted" is if their was a specific contract between the school and the student, that the aid is totally contengient on his participation on the FB team. As far as I know, up untill this season NEC schools did not participate ain the NLI program for football. But I could be wrong here.
It's not really about the NLI since scholarships were not in play. It's about the decision to give grant to meet need because a student plays football. The 'contract' in place at PL schools (and probably NEC schools) is that if you stop playing football, you no longer get aid like Adam above but get it like Bill (to use your example).


So what you are saying is according to these numbers Colgate and Lehigh are spending about $2+ million more on football in "athletic aid" than NEC couterparts CCSU, UA, and SBU are already spending on aid?
Yes, we are. Fordham and Lafayette too.



Expenses from US Dept of Ed reports:

Colgate: MBB $1.5m; FB $3.3m
Lehigh: MBB $1.7m; FB $3.0m
G-town: MBB $5.3M; FB $1.3m

CCSU: MBB $1.7m; FB $801k
Albany: MBB $1.5m; FB $739k
SBU: MBB $2.1m; FB $895k

If we can agree that these PL schools and the NEC have roughly the same non-player costs, such as coaches salaries, equipment, bus trips, etc. then this difference can only be "player aid," right?
Roughly the same no-player costs? No. We pay our coaches more, and have more of them paid at a higher level. We also probably (but I could be wrong here) have a bit nicer/newer equipment and perks and maybe have higher traveling contingents. But, we're probably in the same ballpark.


So, 50 PL "player aid packages" at $50k each comes to $2.5 million. Are you saying that this amount is the difference between some PL and NEC schools?

If so, then 50 "schollys" at CCSU or the SUNYs is only going to cost us 750k more. That is not a big deal in the scheme of things, and is one reason why I belive our existing player costs are "hidden" among all university expenses. If "stepping up" is only going to cost CCSU, UA, and SBU about $750k a year, then its a no brainer IMO.
The large disparity is in the difference of our costs. The private school PL has price tags that will be over $45K this fall. It comes down to equivalencies. In actual dollars, it isn't much money at all for the state NEC schools to ramp up to 63 scholarships. For the state schools, it probably is a no brainer: be competitive at the top level or don't bother at all. IMO it's the privates in the NEC that are holding back a full scholarship league, and SBU and UA are done waiting.

[Go...gate]

I can't help noticing how low our BB funding is compared to Lehigh and CCSU. I know it may be "only" $200K, but that can buy a lot of man-hours of recruiting and such.

[colgate13]

I can't help noticing how low our BB funding is compared to Lehigh and CCSU. I know it may be "only" $200K, but that can buy a lot of man-hours of recruiting and such.

Keep in mind you're comparing figures that are full scholarship programs with Colgate that is in the transition to scholarships. This year's seniors are still 'need-based'.

[aceinthehole]

OK, gate13 you got me thinking to do a little more analysis. The results were a little suprising. :)

NEC summary, sorted by FB expenditures
(FB expenditures; assistant coaches (FT/PT); school; UG enrollment; cost to attend)

$901k; 6 FT / 0 PT; Sacred Heart; 4,104; $35,566
$895k; 3 FT / 5 PT; Stony Brook; 14,287; $14,055
$843k; 3 FT / 4 PT; Monmouth; 4,555; $30,456
$801k; 2 FT / 6 PT; Central Conn; 9,678; $14,078
$800k; 4 FT / 6 PT; Wagner; 1,962; $35,700
$739k; 4 FT / 6 PT; Albany; 12,013; $14,544
$705k; 4 FT / 3 PT; St. Francis; 1,410; $29,864
$533k; 1 FT / 8 PT; Robert Morris; 3,971; $25,000

Sources: US Dept of Ed and collegeboard.com

Sacred Heart leads the NEC in expenditures and FT assistant coaches - it is also one of the most expensive to attend. Robert Morris really lacks the financial commitment of other NEC schools.

Would love to see what the PL looks like :

[aceinthehole]

Keep in mind you're comparing figures that are full scholarship programs with Colgate that is in the transition to scholarships. This year's seniors are still 'need-based'.

So what? Doesn't this argue my point that "need based" is not included in the numbers? :)

Also, I know that CCSU fully funds 13 MBB schollys ($14k per year for a CT resident). So our scholarship costs are less than $200k. Even if all our players were all non-residents, that only adds about $75K more to the in-state costs.

Scholarships costs do not appear to be a big portion of the budget. I'd expect the majority of our MBB expenses are Howie's salary, other coaches salaries, travel, and recruiting, and game day costs.

[dbackjon]

OK, gate13 you got me thinking to do a little more analysis. The results were a little suprising. :)

NEC summary, sorted by FB expenditures
(FB expenditures; assistant coaches (FT/PT); school; UG enrollment; cost to attend)

$901k; 6 FT / 0 PT; Sacred Heart; 4,104; $35,566
$895k; 3 FT / 5 PT; Stony Brook; 14,287; $14,055
$843k; 3 FT / 4 PT; Monmouth; 4,555; $30,456
$801k; 2 FT / 6 PT; Central Conn; 9,678; $14,078
$800k; 4 FT / 6 PT; Wagner; 1,962; $35,700
$739k; 4 FT / 6 PT; Albany; 12,013; $14,544
$705k; 4 FT / 3 PT; St. Francis; 1,410; $29,864
$533k; 1 FT / 8 PT; Robert Morris; 3,971; $25,000

Sources: US Dept of Ed and collegeboard.com

Sacred Heart leads the NEC in expenditures and FT assistant coaches - it is also one of the most expensive to attend. Robert Morris really lacks the financial commitment of other NEC schools.

Would love to see what the PL looks like :

Also points out that Albany, Stony Brook and CCSU have more in common (state schools, similar enrollment, fees) than the rest of the NEC.

[Go...gate]

I never realized that Wagner and St. Francis were smaller than Colgate. Especially Wagner. I figured it for 4,000 or so.

[DFW HOYA]

Expenses from US Dept of Ed reports:

Colgate: MBB $1.5m; FB $3.3m
Lehigh: MBB $1.7m; FB $3.0m
G-town: MBB $5.3M; FB $1.3m


Correction:

G-town: MBB $3.71M; FB $1.26m

The football numbers will grow but a lot of PL fans still don't understand the gap. The school doesn't have a couple of million lying around for football, so it will have to grow through alumni support.

[mainejeff]

Everything mentioned sounds plausible to me.

Hofstra wants to cut expenses......period. Now that the 3 SUNYs are in AE, it makes sense and cents for them to switch leagues. They will still have a recruiting tie to Baltimore with UMBC in the league if they are recruitng that area for basketball, football or lacrosse. I think that they realise that they have a much better chance at earning automatic bids in many sports as well as establishing stronger league rivalries, all while cutting travel costs.

I can see Central Connecticut and Monmouth for football only to get to 9 members in that sport, but I think that AE wants to remain at 10 all-sports members for now with spots #11 and #12 reserved for UMass and URI if something crazy happened with a big conference shuffle down the road.......my :twocents:.

[colgate13]

Would love to see what the PL looks like :

So would I. Have at it!

Seriously, if I get the time, I will. I want to get the next PL blog piece done soon!

[colgate13]

So what? Doesn't this argue my point that "need based" is not included in the numbers? :)

No. It means that Colgate wasn't fully funding basketball (using need-based aid) before the move to scholarships. We were using the same amount of bodies as a school fully funding it, but since it was need based, the equivalency total would be less than the full amount because not everyone has full need. Basketball is a head count sport, so you can't take those left over equivalencies (from less than full need players) and spend them on another student on the roster.

To put it another way, say in the need-based world on average 1 player = 80% scholarship, so 13 (or whatever the D-I limit is, I forget at the moment) players do not equal 13 scholarships. Moving to true athletic scholarships means that 13 players = 13 scholarships.

Simple, right? :)

[Go...gate]

Let's face it. If Rutgers, which is a heavily state-supported school, finds state support so insufficient that it cuts six sports in one fell swoop, which they did last week, other less well-funded state universities (such as UNH, UMass, URI, Stony Brook and Albany) have got to be thinking along the same lines. One big way to cut costs is to rationalize (and regionalize) scheduling to reduce travel. This AE thing IMHO, really has traction.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's face it. If Rutgers, which is a heavily state-supported school, finds state support so insufficient that it cuts six sports in one fell swoop, which they did last week, other less well-funded state universities (such as UNH, UMass, URI, Stony Brook and Albany) have got to be thinking along the same lines. One big way to cut costs is to rationalize (and regionalize) scheduling to reduce travel. This AE thing IMHO, really has traction.

Personally I never thought it made sense to have Hofstra and Northeastern in the CAA in the first place when it came to travel for all sports. But now they're in, and I'd imagine there would be a big penalty to get out... which could eliminate the "benefit" of regionalizing competition.

[dbackjon]

Personally I never thought it made sense to have Hofstra and Northeastern in the CAA in the first place when it came to travel for all sports. But now they're in, and I'd imagine there would be a big penalty to get out... which could eliminate the "benefit" of regionalizing competition.

Unless other CAA members are tired of traveling to the Northeast, and let them go to save themselves money as well.

[mainejeff]

Unless other CAA members are tired of traveling to the Northeast, and let them go to save themselves money as well.

Smart thinking.

I doubt that you will see anyone crying if Hofstra leaves, especially the Virginia members, UNCW and Georgia State.

Northeastern will have some major issues (they already do) if Hofstra leaves. I doubt that Northeastern will stay in a mid-major league where their closest conference mate is in Philadelphia and their closest football rival is Delaware. My bet is that they are too new to the CAA to reverse their decision this soon. They would have some major egg on their face.

[downbythebeach]

The enrollment number for SFU is way off. In fact I think that is the actually the number of female undergrads.

[aceinthehole]

The enrollment number for SFU is way off. In fact I think that is the actually the number of female undergrads.

Welcome! Glad to see another NEC fan, especially one from SFPA.

Again, the source for the undergrad enrollment and cost to attend (tuition plus room and board) was taken from www.collegeboard.com, so I do not know how accurate it is. It was too time consuming to verify enrollment and cost from each school's website.

BTW - what are your expectations of the Red Flash this season? I really hope they do well and would love to see them steal a win at Delaware State! Last season their passing game was unreal, and they were a bad matchup for CCSU. Should we expect the same "type" of team in 2006?

[aceinthehole]

Everything mentioned sounds plausible to me.

Hofstra wants to cut expenses......period. Now that the 3 SUNYs are in AE, it makes sense and cents for them to switch leagues. They will still have a recruiting tie to Baltimore with UMBC in the league if they are recruitng that area for basketball, football or lacrosse. I think that they realise that they have a much better chance at earning automatic bids in many sports as well as establishing stronger league rivalries, all while cutting travel costs.

I can see Central Connecticut and Monmouth for football only to get to 9 members in that sport, but I think that AE wants to remain at 10 all-sports members for now with spots #11 and #12 reserved for UMass and URI if something crazy happened with a big conference shuffle down the road.......my :twocents:.

Sorry MJ, this is where I haven't seen any hint that "Hofstra wants to cut expenses." Almost every NCAA school makes the majority of the $$$ and exposure from MBB. Hofstra is now a "higer profile mid-major" poised to keep the CAA on the heels of the A-10 and MVC. The buzz they are getting now is huge. I cannot see how Hofstra would give up this exposure just to reduce travel costs for a few trips to VA. Again, Hoftsra in theory will have a very easy time getting OOC games in all sports as the northern outpost (along with NU) of the CAA. The AE, NEC, MAAC, Ivy, and PL teams will get in line to schedule Hofstra, so in reality only a few conference games require some travel.

Furthermore, with NU recently bolting to the CAA, and Boston U and Hartford as the only remaining private in the AE, they do not fit the current "profile" of the AE. I'm not sure it was a good idea for either HU or NU to leave, but they did and I doubt they are going back with their tail between their legs anytime soon. Also by staying in the CAA, Hofstra could position itself in the NYC media behind St. John's and Seton Hall, but ahead of Manhattan, Fordham, or any other metro area school. Why would they lose ground to the A-10 or MAAC and fight for LI press with an up and comming Stony Brook?

Now, I'm sure Monmouth and CCSU would consider a FB-only membership, but since the NEC sponsors that sport, they only way either team could join the AE football is as an all-sports member, period. Selecting 1 of these schools would give the AE an even 10 teams (the most likely secenario IMO). And then I agree, the AE holds spots 11 and 12 for UMass/URI or a return of HU/NU, but I think those odds are very slim.

[Fordham]

Even though Fordham fans would argue that Long Island-based Hofstra isn't really an NYC team :D , does anyone think that the CAA values the ability to hit that huge marketplace with them in it? As much as some VA schools may prefer not to incur the travel costs by playing them, I would think the league as a whole would see value in having a school in the NY Metro area (tap into that media, play nearer alums in the NY Metro area, etc.), which might make them less willing to see them leave.

Or is this irrelevant to the CAA?

[aceinthehole]

Expenses from US Dept of Ed reports:

Colgate: MBB $1.5m; FB $3.3m
Lehigh: MBB $1.7m; FB $3.0m
G-town: MBB $5.3M; FB $1.3m

CCSU: MBB $1.7m; FB $801k
Albany: MBB $1.5m; FB $739k
SBU: MBB $2.1m; FB $895k



Sorry, the numbers I cited for MBB (above) were for both men's and womens basketball total. My mistake! Here is the correct expenses for MBB only:

Colgate: $783k
Lehigh: $883k
G-town: $3.71m

Central Conn: $979k
Albany: $781k
Stony Brook: $1.09m

Source: http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp

[GannonFan]

I think the CAA does value Hofstra being in the the conference and being in the NYC area. I think it's some wishful thinking by a few on here that the other members in the conference don't want the travel and wouldn't mind seeing Hofstra go. Really, the only school who has ever said boo about the travel has been UNCW - the Va schools appear to be fine with it and even Georgia State is fine with it. Last year the CAA got more props during the George Mason run because the NY market kept talking about how Hofstra was snubbed. That doesn't happen without a team in that market. It would be a shock if Hofstra choose to leave the CAA to be honest. It would be a step back for almost all their programs competitively - yes, they could hope for more post season oppotunities playing in a lesser conference, but their ability to compete once they got there would be diminished. A CAA team was a #9 seed in the tourney this year - the AEast would salivate over a #12 seed and often in worse than that. Hofstra has seen an athletic resurgence from being in the CAA - it would seem odd to turn the clock back on that and revert to the America East so soon after leaving it in the first place.

[aceinthehole]

I never realized that Wagner and St. Francis were smaller than Colgate. Especially Wagner. I figured it for 4,000 or so.

After your comment and the one from the SFPA fan, I should't have used that other site for enrollment figures, just the cost to attend. But be aware I did cite the number as "undergraduate enrollment" only.

Here is the "Size" listed from http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp site. I pretty sure it includes undergrad and graduate students, because the FT UG numbers for each school in the same report are much lower.

Stony Brook: 21,685
Albany: 16,293
CCSU: 12,320
---
Monmouth: 6,329
Sacred Heart: 5,657
Robert Morris: 4,971

Colgate: 2,831

Wagner: 2,259
St. Francis: 1,847

[dbackjon]

After your comment and the one from the SFPA fan, I should't have used that other site for enrollment figures, just the cost to attend. But be aware I did cite the number as "undergraduate enrollment" only.

Here is the "Size" listed from http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/index.asp site. I pretty sure it includes undergrad and graduate students, because the FT UG numbers for each school in the same report are much lower.

Stony Brook: 21,685
Albany: 16,293
CCSU: 12,320
---
Monmouth: 6,329
Sacred Heart: 5,657
Robert Morris: 4,971

Colgate: 2,831

Wagner: 2,259
St. Francis: 1,847

For football purposes, I think just UG numbers are more relevant - Grad students seem to support I-AA football even less than UG's do.

[mainejeff]

If Hofstra isn't interested then why was their President and AD reportedly at the AE Summer Meeting??? No one seems to want to face that question ;).

Hofstra would have seen a similar "resurgence" in their sports program even if they had remained in AE. They've always been good in men's hoops, men's lacrosse, and softball........at least they were when they were in AE previously. What has really changed :confused:.

[dbackjon]

If Hofstra isn't interested then why was their President and AD reportedly at the AE Summer Meeting??? No one seems to want to face that question ;).

Hofstra would have seen a similar "resurgence" in their sports program even if they had remained in AE. They've always been good in men's hoops, men's lacrosse, and softball........at least they were when they were in AE previously. What has really changed :confused:.


You do have to admit that right NOW, CAA basketball is better than AE - with George Mason, UNCW along with Hofstra all very good teams. Last AE team to make a splash was Vermont with Coppenrath.

[GannonFan]

Hey, I try a fair amount to calm the irrational exuberance of the pro-CAA folks on their boards - they think CAA basketball is on par with almost any conference. I certainly won't go that far but to be fair, on the whole, the CAA has always been a better basketball conference (men's and women's) than the America East has. The Coppenrath Vermont team was certainly good and could hang with any CAA team, especially that year, but on the whole the comparison between the two conferences haven't been close. And some of Hofstra's press recently has been affected by being in the CAA - WFAN in New York talks about Hofstra a fair amount and they began to talk about Hofstra much more when they joined the CAA - they clearly recognized that they moved up in competition in almost every sport moving to the CAA. America East is fine, but across the board it's been lesser competition than the CAA. To jump off the bandwagon now, so soon after Mason's run, would be lunacy for Hofstra. The CAA may never become the preeminent mid major conference, but to cut and run now would be the equivalent of throwing in the towel for Hofstra.

[mainejeff]

You do have to admit that right NOW, CAA basketball is better than AE - with George Mason, UNCW along with Hofstra all very good teams. Last AE team to make a splash was Vermont with Coppenrath.

No doubt that the CAA is much better than AE in men's hoops, especially the top half of the league.

[mainejeff]

Hey, I try a fair amount to calm the irrational exuberance of the pro-CAA folks on their boards - they think CAA basketball is on par with almost any conference. I certainly won't go that far but to be fair, on the whole, the CAA has always been a better basketball conference (men's and women's) than the America East has. The Coppenrath Vermont team was certainly good and could hang with any CAA team, especially that year, but on the whole the comparison between the two conferences haven't been close. And some of Hofstra's press recently has been affected by being in the CAA - WFAN in New York talks about Hofstra a fair amount and they began to talk about Hofstra much more when they joined the CAA - they clearly recognized that they moved up in competition in almost every sport moving to the CAA. America East is fine, but across the board it's been lesser competition than the CAA. To jump off the bandwagon now, so soon after Mason's run, would be lunacy for Hofstra. The CAA may never become the preeminent mid major conference, but to cut and run now would be the equivalent of throwing in the towel for Hofstra.

Why would it be "throwing in the towel"??? Because they are making a financial (or otherwise decision) with an eye on the future?

The CAA is stronger in men's hoops and baseball and that's about it. Take ODU out in women's hoops and both leagues are about equal.

[BearsCountry]

It would be intresting to see what happens out east. Big East is going to cause some major ripples throughout the east. A-10, IMO is on some shaky ground. They could get really get raided. That might make UMass and URI consider something different.

[Go...gate]

Gannon is right - WFAN has kind of adopted Hofstra and Fordham and kicked St. John's to the curb. They were also into Stony Brook when Nick Macarchuk was there (Don Imus used to have him on his AM show before it went national during Macarchuk' s tenures at Fordham and SB). Having Mike and the Mad Dog as a mouthpiece can only help the CAA.

[GannonFan]

Why would it be "throwing in the towel"??? Because they are making a financial (or otherwise decision) with an eye on the future?

The CAA is stronger in men's hoops and baseball and that's about it. Take ODU out in women's hoops and both leagues are about equal.

Well, first of all, the football strength would stay in the CAA - the New England schools have good spurts of football, but the real strength of the conference, and the support, is in the South. So that gives the CAA the nod in football, men's basketball, and baseball - that's a sweep of the top 3 right there. And you can't just "take out" ODU since they're staying so women's b-ball in the CAA is better as well. How many of the big sports need to favor the CAA before it's considered a better league?

IMO, Hofstra moving to the AE would be a huge step back. First of all, it would be tantamount to them saying that they are no better than their local peers (Stony Brook, Binghampton, Albany) - sure, it would be nice to play those schools consistently, but Hofstra would be capitulating that they are any better than those programs are. After spending as much effort as they have to try to overtake the Johnnies as the preeminent basketball school in the NYC area, it would seem odd to acquiese to simply being part of the crowd. And how bad is the travel for Hofstra right now and how would it be better for them in the AE? Orono, Maine is actually a farther distance from Uniondale than Richmond is. Going to the AE won't preclude a trip to Baltimore as you just replace Towson with UMBC. Northeastern in the CAA is the same trip that going to BU in the AE would be. And you would drop local teams like UD and Drexel for other local teams like Albany and Binghampton. Outside of UNCW and Georgia St, travel isn't much better in the AE than it is in the CAA, at least not enough to make a wholesale change of conference.

If the Hofstra guys were there, it's not too shocking - if you're invited then you go and you keep your options open. No need to snub or upset people by turning down a few luncheon meetings when you don't know what the landscape will look like in 10 years. As for right now, there doesn't appear to be any reason to move and quite a few reasons not to move.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Well, first of all, the football strength would stay in the CAA - the New England schools have good spurts of football, but the real strength of the conference, and the support, is in the South. So that gives the CAA the nod in football, men's basketball, and baseball - that's a sweep of the top 3 right there.

It seems very odd to make this case in a year when the two A-10 playoff participants (UNH and Richmond) and one almost-participant (UMass) all would be CAA affiliates in 2007.


IMO, Hofstra moving to the AE would be a huge step back. First of all, it would be tantamount to them saying that they are no better than their local peers (Stony Brook, Binghampton, Albany) - sure, it would be nice to play those schools consistently, but Hofstra would be capitulating that they are any better than those programs are.

Um, I think calling this "capitulating" is a bit strong, don't you think? I think we all know that "level of play in 2006" is not the reason Hofstra would consider this move. Spinning this as a move to lesser competition might fool Richmond fans, but I think Hofstra fans are smarter than that.


After spending as much effort as they have to try to overtake the Johnnies as the preeminent basketball school in the NYC area, it would seem odd to acquiese to simply being part of the crowd.

If they indeed have (which admittedly I doubt), wouldn't the team itself be "beyond conference affiliation"? If the team is that good, which is better - a guarantee to compete every year for the AE's autobid, or to get locked out like they did last year from making the NCAA Tourney?


And how bad is the travel for Hofstra right now and how would it be better for them in the AE? Orono, Maine is actually a farther distance from Uniondale than Richmond is. Going to the AE won't preclude a trip to Baltimore as you just replace Towson with UMBC. Northeastern in the CAA is the same trip that going to BU in the AE would be. And you would drop local teams like UD and Drexel for other local teams like Albany and Binghampton. Outside of UNCW and Georgia St, travel isn't much better in the AE than it is in the CAA, at least not enough to make a wholesale change of conference.

A fair point, but another point is the lack of a true regional rival in this mix, with the possible exception of Delaware. Where is the potential for a great regional rival? Northeastern? Delaware? Those are the two closest schools. Can you blame them for wanting to cultivate a regional rivalry with Stony Brook which is a 20 minute drive from Hempstead?


If the Hofstra guys were there, it's not too shocking - if you're invited then you go and you keep your options open. No need to snub or upset people by turning down a few luncheon meetings when you don't know what the landscape will look like in 10 years. As for right now, there doesn't appear to be any reason to move and quite a few reasons not to move.

I agree with your main sentiment - just because a Hofstra guy is at the meeting doesn't mean it's a done deal. Yet it's not for the reasons you describe either.

[Maroon&White]

Well, first of all, the football strength would stay in the CAA - the New England schools have good spurts of football, but the real strength of the conference, and the support, is in the South. So that gives the CAA the nod in football, men's basketball, and baseball - that's a sweep of the top 3 right there.

Are you comparing the CAA to AE or the A10?

[GannonFan]

Are you comparing the CAA to AE or the A10?

The CAA to the AE - I think the A10 still holds sway over the CAA (despite the notion from the most avid CAA fans out there that the CAA is better) in men's b-ball. Baseball is definitely in the CAA's favor and there won't be a football comparison once the A10 no longer sponsors football.

[GannonFan]

It seems very odd to make this case in a year when the two A-10 playoff participants (UNH and Richmond) and one almost-participant (UMass) all would be CAA affiliates in 2007.

Not just looking at one year but rather the trend over the past 20 years - if you look at the records and playoff appearances over that time, the South (not just CAA schools but also affiliates) is stronger - with UD and W&M being the top 2 performing schools, now a resurgent JMU program, a nova program that I hate but one that has been very successful, a Richmond program and a sleeping giant in Towson, the South is the strength football-wise. That doesn't mean that the North doesn't have good teams (UMass has a NC and a solid program) but there's more hit and miss in the North. Maine's had a few good years kinda like UNH now, but they have not been steady performers. NU continues to struggle and URI could drop football in the future. Not saying the North doesn't have good years, but they don't have the same solid programs in the other half of the conference.




Um, I think calling this "capitulating" is a bit strong, don't you think? I think we all know that "level of play in 2006" is not the reason Hofstra would consider this move. Spinning this as a move to lesser competition might fool Richmond fans, but I think Hofstra fans are smarter than that.

It's a choice of words, nothing more. But I do think it is lesser competition, and no one's really said that it wasn't (heck, you yourself even allude that it is in your next point). In the 3 major sports, football, men's basketball, and baseball, the AE is a step back from the CAA.




If they indeed have (which admittedly I doubt), wouldn't the team itself be "beyond conference affiliation"? If the team is that good, which is better - a guarantee to compete every year for the AE's autobid, or to get locked out like they did last year from making the NCAA Tourney?

I think Hofstra has tried hard from a PR standpoint to stake their claim as the better team in NYC. They've actively scheduled NYC teams, including St Johns, and they've made those into big games. But I don't think they are beyond conference affiliation. They got their biggest boost in press just this past year when they were locked out from the NCAA's - more than when they actually made it in back to back years in their last years in the AE. Just making the tourney from a lesser conference does not ensure that you'll keep getting the talent you need to compete in that tournament. If you stay in the AE long enough, you will see a drop in quality versus where they are now in the CAA.




A fair point, but another point is the lack of a true regional rival in this mix, with the possible exception of Delaware. Where is the potential for a great regional rival? Northeastern? Delaware? Those are the two closest schools. Can you blame them for wanting to cultivate a regional rivalry with Stony Brook which is a 20 minute drive from Hempstead?

No doubt the regional rival thing is probably the biggest selling point for Hofstra. If it was just based on that, I would think they would move. But as all these other points are out there, that's just one factor amongst many. And when you can (and they have) play them OOC every year in every sport, you don't need to be a conference rival to have a regional rivalry.




I agree with your main sentiment - just because a Hofstra guy is at the meeting doesn't mean it's a done deal. Yet it's not for the reasons you describe either.

[Urban Barrister]

As an AE fan (and Binghamton alum), I've really enjoyed this thread. The posters on this board, by and large, really know their stuff, and are generally much more "fair and balanced" than the posters on some of the league boards. For that reason, I thought I'd register and throw a couple of thoughts into the mix.

First, I think these arguments about which league is stronger are missing a couple of key points. First, if Hofstra is one of the top teams in the CAA, and they return to the AE, then the disparity between the leagues (in basketball, anyhow) automatically gets smaller - so, to the extent that Hofstra is taking a step back, it's not as big a step as some of you would make it out to be.

Second, as someone else pointed out, Hofstra has a much better shot at getting into the NCAA tourney if they're back in the AE, if only by virtue of the fact that the AE has fewer schools bidding for its automatic bids than the CAA. Last year's NCAA b-ball tourney couldn't have underscored more the importance of the automatic bid for Hofstra and other mid-major schools. As good as Hofstra may be, unless they nab the automatic bid, there are no guarantees they'll get an at-large, whether they stay in the CAA or move back to the AE. (And no, one year with two bids does not mean that the CAA is now a multi-bid league.)

Third, if ever there was a league with some serious upside, it's the AE. Since the last big waive of defections to the CAA, the AE has added four state universities - the three SUNYs from NY and one from Maryland. The SUNYs have only been D-I schools for 5 years or so. In other words, their athletic programs are essentially in their infancy at the D-I level. Look at other states the size of NY and see how strong their state universities are in athletics. Look at the talent NY produces, in football, basketball, baseball, lacrosse, etc. As the SUNYs increase the amount of money they are spending on athletics, and become more successful at keeping NY talent from leaving the state, I don't see how they won't improve dramatically over the next five years. Can you really say the same thing about the weaker programs in the CAA?

Finally, if Hofstra returns to the AE, the league will become that much more attractive to UMass and URI, and I have to imagine Hofstra has at least considered that possibility. Add those two schools to the mix, and I think the AE would immediately become just as competitive a conference in basketball as the CAA. Football might not be as competitive, but I think the improved rivalries the AE would provide, along with a better shot at an automatic bid (assuming AE Football can figure out how to get one), would make any drop in the level of competition from the CAA more than palatable for Hofstra. Finally, I'd argue that lacrosse is the real #3 sport at Hofstra, not baseball, and in lacrosse, the AE and CAA are already on par with each other. Move Hofstra back to the AE, and the AE becomes the better league by far.

All of which is not to say that there wouldn't be negatives to a Hofstra move back to the AE, but I think there'd be plenty of positives, too, and to suggest otherwise seems way off the mark to me.

[mainejeff]

Welcome aboard UB!

I think that the whole UMass/URI to AE scenario is very much alive down the road. I know that fans of those 2 schools will deny it with every ounce of breath that they have, but honestly look at the A-10 (hoops) now and how much it has fallen over the past 5 years. Yes, Temple, Xavier, and Charlotte are attractive conference opponents.......but what if they leave and along with most of the TV money as well? I'm betting that Boston U, Hofstra, Maine, UNH, Vermont become more attractive conference mates than St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, LaSalle, Fordham and St. Louis.

Also, regarding Hofstra......they have a club hockey program, and with half of Hockey East in AE you may see the conference sponsor hockey and Hofstra start up that sport down the road.

[*****]

What is "baskeetbool"????? What about I-AA?

[Dane96]

Welcome aboard UB!

I think that the whole UMass/URI to AE scenario is very much alive down the road. I know that fans of those 2 schools will deny it with every ounce of breath that they have, but honestly look at the A-10 (hoops) now and how much it has fallen over the past 5 years. Yes, Temple, Xavier, and Charlotte are attractive conference opponents.......but what if they leave and along with most of the TV money as well? I'm betting that Boston U, Hofstra, Maine, UNH, Vermont become more attractive conference mates than St. Bonaventure, Duquesne, LaSalle, Fordham and St. Louis.

Also, regarding Hofstra......they have a club hockey program, and with half of Hockey East in AE you may see the conference sponsor hockey and Hofstra start up that sport down the road.


Albany has one of the strongest club hockey programs and I would suspect if Hofstra came back and bumped hockey up, Albany would do the same.

UB...right on point buddy.

As an aside, you can forget Hofstra taking over SJU for the long haul. SJU is slowly working itself up from the depths; they have one of the best recruiting classes in the country coming in. Norm needs time, but he will right that ship. The sheer resources SJU has (and alumni) for hoop would simply outlast Hofstra's hoop spending any day of the week.

In two years...SJU will be back...and in a much better place. Hofstra, while top-notch, will not outpace SJU in the long run...way to much influence and history there.

[Fordham]

"urban barrister" - great name. Welcome aboard.

[bluehenbillk]

MJ, now you're advocating that URI & UMass will join the ALeast for all sports?

I call for an immediate drug test!!

[Go...gate]

Welcome, Urban Barrister.