The NEC future?

[aceinthehole]

Here's how things look from West Long Branch.


WEST LONG BRANCH — Albany’s leaving, Rhode Island’s not coming and the Northeast Conference is reeling, divided about the direction of football.

Consequently, Monmouth University finds itself in a precarious position as it celebrates its 20th season on the gridiron, needing to improve both the level of play and the school’s commitment to the program if it hopes to remain relevant on an ever-shifting landscape.
...
“When conferences go shopping for new members,” Hawks head coach Kevin Callahan said, “they’re looking for people that have the whole package. They’re looking for people that will be competitive on the field. They’re looking for people that have the facilities to create a quality game day experience. It’s more critical now than it’s ever been to make sure we’re positioning ourselves in all of those areas.”

No one knows what the future holds, particularly in the NEC.

Some schools, like Monmouth and Robert Morris, seem willing to move upwards from the 40 scholarships they’ll have in 2013, perhaps all the way up to 63. While members like St. Francis (Pa.) have no interest in escalating the issue.

So if there’s a decision that has to be made down the road, make sure you’re in an advantageous situation. Then you can decide whether it’s worth going all the way up to a full 63 scholarships, with annual expenditures on the sport jumping from around $1.2 million to $4 million, including more money on scholarships, coaches and salaries and recruiting.
...
Albany will leave the NEC after this season to join Colonial Athletic Association, while Rhode Island is expected to remain in the CAA.

“You hate to see (Albany) go,’’ added Callahan, “but to their credit they were very strategic in positioning themselves for this move. And by that I mean they kept themselves at the maximum allowable scholarships in the NEC, they enhanced their staffing tremendously over the last three years so. They were gearing up for something. They were looking over the horizon and they’re building a brand new facility which will open up in a month or two. They had all their things in place when and if an opportunity opened up they took advantage of it.”

http://www.app.com/article/20120809/NJSPORTS0220/308090123/Hawks-need-to-make-statement

[NHwildEcat]

Might the NEC be looking down to D2 for replacement squads?

[DFW HOYA]

Might the NEC be looking down to D2 for replacement squads?

No. They could look at some mix of Marist and Dayton, or, less likely, Georgetown. I've already held that the NEC is a short-term option but probably not a good long term fit for Georgetown.

And if Iona could ever get back in the mix, a good fit.

[aceinthehole]

Might the NEC be looking down to D2 for replacement squads?

Doubt it. I don't know of any D-II schools in the NEC footprint that have recently announced a formal study to reclassify to D-I. There is nothing but messsageboard rumors and wild speculation out there. But if the NEC is looking to D-II schools as potential replacements, I would assume you would only look at the NE-10 and PSAC for candidates.

My guess is they don't do anything yet and see how this shakes out. There are still some more changes likely to happen.

[aceinthehole]

No. They could look at some mix of Marist and Dayton, or, less likely, Georgetown. I've already held that the NEC is a short-term option but probably not a good long term fit for Georgetown.

And if Iona could ever get back in the mix, a good fit.

That is probably the direction they will try ONLY if increasing schollys in the future is off the table. Otherwise, they may try to compete at full scholly level just like the Big South.

Again, the NEC likely can't/won't do anything until some other moves are made to force their hand.

[Original_RMC]

I think the NEC will hold tight but I don't see other programs following that lead. I could see CCSU and Monmouth starting to explore other options outside of the NEC.
I think the NEC has to be aggressive enough to at least start talking to other programs for Football Only
Marist (MAAC/Pioneer)
Dayton (A-10/Pioneer)
Butler (A-10/Pioneer)
Morehead State (OVC/Pioneer)
Georgetown (Big East/Patriot)

[danefan]

Marist has go to be targeted as a football-only affiliate.

The NEC is not going to replace Albany. There aren't any other FCS teams with full-scholarship aspirations willing to sit tight.

The NEC would be smart to add Marist and let them add as many or as few scholarships as they want.

[fc97]

could the Pioneer be winding down? with stony brook gone, coastal poised for the socon, liberty wanting fbs; could campbell, mercer and Stetson (and davidson) be targets for the big south?

[DFW HOYA]

could the Pioneer be winding down? with stony brook gone, coastal poised for the socon, liberty wanting fbs; could campbell, mercer and Stetson (and davidson) be targets for the big south?

There will be a place for the PFL. Davidson is content as a non-scholarship program and neither Mercer nor Stetson will consider an upgrade for years to come. The only PFL teams I could envision moving up down the road are Morehead State or Jacksonville.

The Big South is a more timely concern. Another thread, perhaps...

[Original_RMC]

There will be a place for the PFL. Davidson is content as a non-scholarship program and neither Mercer nor Stetson will consider an upgrade for years to come. The only PFL teams I could envision moving up is Morehead State or Jacksonville.

The Big South is a more timely concern. Another thread, perhaps...

and perhaps San Diego

[MplsBison]

San Diego could probably save money as an independent scheduling Big Sky and DII teams. They might not play enough DI teams to qualify for the playoffs - but that doesn't matter, no Pioneer team was ever going to get an at-large anyway.

I agree with what everyone else has said, Marist seems the only expansion candidate but for now there is no move to be made.

[danefan]

San Diego could probably save money as an independent scheduling Big Sky and DII teams. They might not play enough DI teams to qualify for the playoffs - but that doesn't matter, no Pioneer team was ever going to get an at-large anyway.

I agree with what everyone else has said, Marist seems the only expansion candidate but for now there is no move to be made.

Why would San Diego give up a chance at an AQ? PFL gets an AQ in 2013.

[MplsBison]

Why would San Diego give up a chance at an AQ? PFL gets an AQ in 2013.

If the PFL somehow gets an AQ, then yes that's a good point.

But on the other hand, that cross country travel is pretty expensive. And they're never going to be as competitive as they were when Harbaugh was there, so ... why keep it up?

[danefan]

If the PFL somehow gets an AQ, then yes that's a good point.

But on the other hand, that cross country travel is pretty expensive. And they're never going to be as competitive as they were when Harbaugh was there, so ... why keep it up?

The PFL AQ is all but a done deal. Just needs a rubber stamp.

Cross-country travel isn't as expensive as you may think. The average PFL travel budget is somewhere between 200,000-300,000. The league also pools some travel costs to offset for longer trips.

[MplsBison]

The PFL AQ is all but a done deal. Just needs a rubber stamp.

Cross-country travel isn't as expensive as you may think. The average PFL travel budget is somewhere between 200,000-300,000. The league also pools some travel costs to offset for longer trips.

I'm sure SD spends more than a million on travel.

[danefan]

I'm sure SD spends more than a million on travel.

I'm telling you they don't. The costs are pooled among the other PFL teams. They fly commercial flights and travel rosters are limited.

San Diego's entire football budget is $1 million.

[MplsBison]

I'm telling you they don't. The costs are pooled among the other PFL teams. They fly commercial flights and travel rosters are limited.

San Diego's entire football budget is $1 million.

That's still probably $50k in air alone. Then you figure hotel, food, buses, etc.

$100k per trip and at least 5 away games.


Ok half a million. Why not try to save 50% of that and just play west region teams? They're never going to make the playoffs, AQ or not, so what's the point?

[fc97]

limited rosters and personnel. the schools and conference negotiate rates at preferred hotels and airlines. no, its not going to be all that much.

[danefan]

That's still probably $50k in air alone. Then you figure hotel, food, buses, etc.

$100k per trip and at least 5 away games.


Ok half a million. Why not try to save 50% of that and just play west region teams? They're never going to make the playoffs, AQ or not, so what's the point?

I still think you're high.

You can only travel with 55 players in the PFL. They have limited coaching staff as compared to scholarship programs and have limited support (probably 2-3 trainers and 1 equipment manager). Tickets are negotiated by the league for all teams at discounted rates and costs are pooled.

The Campbell AD has been quoted as saying they spend $150,000-$200,000 per year on travel.

San Diego is undoubtedly slightly higher, but not substantially, because again....the PFL teams pool travel costs.

[hebmskebm]

Again, I can't help but think the weaker end of the NEC will be playing non-schollie ball in a league with the northern Pioneer teams in a few years. It's where they've always wanted to be. Why would a school like SFPA continue to grant a few scholarships, nowhere near counter status, and spend a fortune (to them) when they could spend much less and still have access to the playoffs?

[whitey]

NEC is probably okay. It's the Big South that has to worry right now. Liberty wants out badly. Coastal is right with them. Stony Brook is already gone. If the CAA winds up poaching some SoCon schools and then the SoCon dips into the Big South that conference is done from a football perspective unless they can get enough D2 move ups to refill the ranks.

[DetroitFlyer]

Again, I can't help but think the weaker end of the NEC will be playing non-schollie ball in a league with the northern Pioneer teams in a few years. It's where they've always wanted to be. Why would a school like SFPA continue to grant a few scholarships, nowhere near counter status, and spend a fortune (to them) when they could spend much less and still have access to the playoffs?

You have never been to SFUP I guess. Without athletic scholarships, SFUP simply cannot recruit. Even with athletic scholarships it is tough going up against the likes of Duquesne, Robert Morris, PSU, IUP, etc. Not to mention that everyone recruits Western PA. If ever a school needed athletic scholarships to compete, it is SFUP. It is not a stong academic school and there are not many reasons for talented football players to go to SFUP other than an athletic scholarship. SFUP landed a kid over Dayton recently for this very reason. SFUP is where they need to be currently. If anything, I see athletic scholarships going up as funding allows, not a return to non-athletic scholarship football. It just won't work there at a Divison I level....

[van]

San Diego could probably save money as an independent scheduling Big Sky and DII teams. They might not play enough DI teams to qualify for the playoffs - but that doesn't matter, no Pioneer team was ever going to get an at-large anyway.

I agree with what everyone else has said, Marist seems the only expansion candidate but for now there is no move to be made.

Better check San Diego on he map, most of the big sky teams would require plane travel as well.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Marist is pretty geographically isolated in the PFL, but, again, in case it hasn't reached under every rock in the Twin Cities, the PFL limits travel squads and pools travel costs. Marist has not expressed any interest in moving to the NEC, and would definitely want to leave the rest of its sports in the MAAC. The Pioneer model may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, with Mercer, Campbell and Stetson joining a conference which holds 10% of the FCS membership, it is the green growing edge of D1 football.

[DetroitFlyer]

Marist is pretty geographically isolated in the PFL, but, again, in case it hasn't reached under every rock in the Twin Cities, the PFL limits travel squads and pools travel costs. Marist has not expressed any interest in moving to the NEC, and would definitely want to leave the rest of its sports in the MAAC. The Pioneer model may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, with Mercer, Campbell and Stetson joining a conference which holds 10% of the FCS membership, it is the green growing edge of D1 football.

Bingo

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NEC is probably okay. It's the Big South that has to worry right now. Liberty wants out badly. Coastal is right with them. Stony Brook is already gone. If the CAA winds up poaching some SoCon schools and then the SoCon dips into the Big South that conference is done from a football perspective unless they can get enough D2 move ups to refill the ranks.

+1. What's holding the Big South together is the fact that no FBS conference wants Liberty.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Enter IUP? Southern Connecticut or Assumption might have a thought about D1, but Yale and Holy Cross already occupy that space in those respective markets. There is a lot that works in the NE-10 and PSAC in D2 for those schools. Lemoyne just finished a study that recommended staying at D2, I believe. An ambitious D2 private institution might fit the bill, but Albany was in the NEC for football only, and it would be hard to mourn for a Rhody who never arrived. Eight is two above the bid-maintenance minimum, and there are plenty of non-football members. This was a fun early August topic, but I really think that there is nothing to see here. The NEC, for all of the gnashing of teeth regarding its place in the pecking order, seems fine and well-managed.

[alvinkayak6]

Bingo

And more programs will likely start D-I FCS non scholarship ball to play D-I basketball. That's a guess.

[MplsBison]

I still think you're high.

You can only travel with 55 players in the PFL. They have limited coaching staff as compared to scholarship programs and have limited support (probably 2-3 trainers and 1 equipment manager). Tickets are negotiated by the league for all teams at discounted rates and costs are pooled.

The Campbell AD has been quoted as saying they spend $150,000-$200,000 per year on travel.

San Diego is undoubtedly slightly higher, but not substantially, because again....the PFL teams pool travel costs.

What discount? The airline can't discount its fuel costs - which are per mile. Shortest flight from SD is Des Moines, probably 3000mi round trip while others are more like 5000-6000mi round trip.

Say they even get down to a rate of $0.25 per mile per person, that's still $1000 per person on a 4000mi roundtrip. And the university is probably paying for a total travel party of at least 70 people. So that's $70k in air. Easily another $30k for hotel, food, buses, etc. $100k per trip times 4 PFL away games. $400k is the minimum I'll go. And that's just for PFL away games.

No way in heck the other PFL teams, mostly on the east coast, are shelling out $200k to keep San Diego happy. Nice try.

These schools are super cheap. That's why they're in the PFL in the first place. Take a school like Dayton. They'd be competing for OVC championships as a full scholarship program. But their president and board are a bunch of cheap a__holes.

Heck, I don't blame them. Why spend all that money on scholarships when the NCAA is going to give you a free pass to the playoffs anyway?

[MplsBison]

Better check San Diego on he map, most of the big sky teams would require plane travel as well.

Google maps road distance from San Diego, CA:
Cal Poly - 309 mi
UC Davis - 517mi
Sac St - 505mi
NAU - 492mi
SUU -500mi

Yeah being on a bus for 8 hours sucks, but is absolutely doable at 1/10th the cost of flying 4000mi to a PFL school.

[danefan]

What discount? The airline can't discount its fuel costs - which are per mile. Shortest flight from SD is Des Moines, probably 3000mi round trip while others are more like 5000-6000mi round trip.

Say they even get down to a rate of $0.25 per mile per person, that's still $1000 per person on a 4000mi roundtrip. And the university is probably paying for a total travel party of at least 70 people. So that's $70k in air. Easily another $30k for hotel, food, buses, etc. $100k per trip times 4 PFL away games. $400k is the minimum I'll go. And that's just for PFL away games.

No way in heck the other PFL teams, mostly on the east coast, are shelling out $200k to keep San Diego happy. Nice try.

These schools are super cheap. That's why they're in the PFL in the first place. Take a school like Dayton. They'd be competing for OVC championships as a full scholarship program. But their president and board are a bunch of cheap a__holes.

Heck, I don't blame them. Why spend all that money on scholarships when the NCAA is going to give you a free pass to the playoffs anyway?

Funny. I can book a round trip with hotel from San Diego to Des Moines today for $375. Hotel rooms were $75 so double occupancy means per person would really be $337. I could guarantee if I was booking to for 70 I could get the airline to knock at least $25 off not to mention the hotel that just got 35 rooms books....bu sure they won't give me a discount..right.

Add another $5000 for buses. I'll be generous to get closer to your number and that's a total of $28,950.

So yeah......you're juusssst a it outside on this one.

[Go...gate]

Marist is pretty geographically isolated in the PFL, but, again, in case it hasn't reached under every rock in the Twin Cities, the PFL limits travel squads and pools travel costs. Marist has not expressed any interest in moving to the NEC, and would definitely want to leave the rest of its sports in the MAAC. The Pioneer model may not be everyone's cup of tea, but, with Mercer, Campbell and Stetson joining a conference which holds 10% of the FCS membership, it is the green growing edge of D1 football.

Agreed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I agree with danefan that folks tend to overestimate the PFL expenses. To repeat what danefan said, the PFL pool its travel costs. San Diego has to suffer the jet lag, of course, but the added cost of cross country travel is spread around the league. That's the PFL's model and it seems to me that it works pretty well. Only a set number of people travel and all the travel costs are budgeted well in advance. Marist, San Diego, Davidson, Butler, Dayton - all excellent schools that know what they're doing. They don't "need" football - they simple "want" football. Those schools certainly don't need to play in a more competitive, scholarship league to bolster their academic reputations. But at the same time the geographic diversity of the PFL provides a great advantage.

As with others, I'm fine with a PFL auto-bid, if that's what they want. I'm not so sure that they want it, though. There's nothing wrong with PFL schools simply playing college football becasue they can, for no other reason than to provide the college football experience to their fans, student and community.

By the same token I don't see what the NEC is in any real "danger." It has a solid core and perhaps now it is not so inclined to get into an arms race. Georgetown? Maybe, but I'm confident that their present conference wants them to stay and will do what is necessary to keep them. I wouldn't count out Delaware State, Howard or Norfolk to the NEC at some point. And maybe Dayton, I suppose, because it's a fairly large school with a good-sized endowment and a rich sports tradition.

I think that the NEC will be fine and the PFL will stand pat - even grow.

[danefan]

I agree with danefan that folks tend to overestimate the PFL expenses. To repeat what danefan said, the PFL pool its travel costs. San Diego has to suffer the jet lag, of course, but the added cost of cross country travel is spread around the league. That's the PFL's model and it seems to me that it works pretty well. Only a set number of people travel and all the travel costs are budgeted well in advance. Marist, San Diego, Davidson, Butler, Dayton - all excellent schools that know what they're doing. They don't "need" football - they simple "want" football. Those schools certainly don't need to play in a more competitive, scholarship league to bolster their academic reputations. But at the same time the geographic diversity of the PFL provides a great advantage.

As with others, I'm fine with a PFL auto-bid, if that's what they want. I'm not so sure that they want it, though. There's nothing wrong with PFL schools simply playing college football becasue they can, for no other reason than to provide the college football experience to their fans, student and community.

By the same token I don't see what the NEC is in any real "danger." It has a solid core and perhaps now it is not so inclined to get into an arms race. Georgetown? Maybe, but I'm confident that their present conference wants them to stay and will do what is necessary to keep them. I wouldn't count out Delaware State, Howard or Norfolk to the NEC at some point. And maybe Dayton, I suppose, because it's a fairly large school with a good-sized endowment and a rich sports tradition.

I think that the NEC will be fine and the PFL will stand pat - even grow.

The only reason I can see the NEC I'm trouble is because CCSU is on a lonely island should URi renig and stay in the CAA.

[dgreco]

The only reason I can see the NEC I'm trouble is because CCSU is on a lonely island should URi renig and stay in the CAA.

if the CAA considered CCSU, I think CCSU would go and it would be a damper on NEC football. Is that an actual option or just logical banter on the MB?

[danefan]

if the CAA considered CCSU, I think CCSU would go and it would be a damper on NEC football. Is that an actual option or just logical banter on the MB?

I don't think it's a realistic option right now. If CCSU moved to he AEast it might be more realistic.

Can Arute be expanded more? I guess you could put a second deck on the home side.

[Brad82]

New Haven would be a good one if they moved up.

[danefan]

New Haven would be a good one if they moved up.

Agreed. They had plans, but abandoned them.

[aceinthehole]

I don't think it's a realistic option right now. If CCSU moved to he AEast it might be more realistic.

Can Arute be expanded more? I guess you could put a second deck on the home side.

But it is not really an either or proposition regarding CAA Football and America East - it's would basically have to be pacakage deal. The AE-4 isn't going to support CCSU to CAA Football and turn around and block them from the AE. On the other hand, CCSU likely can't accept a AE offer without also securing a spot in CAA Football. I don't know how likely this scenario actually is (it's probably still a longshot), but CCSU would need the same stability the AE-4 has now.

Arute still has a lot of room to close in the endzones and add more seating. Although the newer SUNY stadiums are much, much nicer, they aren't that much that larger than Arute in their current phases (8k vs. 6k). Also, CCSU's current facility is on par with URI, UNH, and Maine in terms of quality. Central could do a lot to expand the west (existing) grandstand, such as a second tier and expanded to each goal line, but that is years away at best.

Finally, I'll post updates in a few weeks, but they are installing a new scoreboard with video replay at Arute this season! xthumbsupx

[danefan]

But it is not really an either or proposition regarding CAA Football and America East - it's would basically have to be pacakage deal. The AE-4 isn't going to support CCSU to CAA Football and turn around and block them from the AE. On the other hand, CCSU likely can't accept a AE offer without also securing a spot in CAA Football. I don't know how likely this scenario actually is (it's probably still a longshot), but CCSU would need the same stability the AE-4 has now.

Arute still has a lot of room to close in the endzones and add more seating. Although the newer SUNY stadiums are much, much nicer, they aren't that much that larger than Arute in their current phases (8k vs. 6k). Also, CCSU's current facility is on par with URI, UNH, and Maine in terms of quality. Central could do a lot to expand the west (existing) grandstand, such as a second tier and expanded to each goal line, but that is years away at best.

Finally, I'll post updates in a few weeks, but they are installing a new scoreboard with video replay at Arute this season! xthumbsupx

At least it's expandable if a conference opportunity did exist. The CAA said numerous times that Albany's stadium overall plan was a factor. We have the ability to go to 24,000 without much trouble. Not sure we'll need it ever but I think the conference was happy to know it was possible. Part of the overall package.