The myth of Patriot League expansion.

[RichH2]

PL has public intent to expand. True? PL has decided to implement AI banding , ala the IL. I guess the payment for getting merit aid. Just as I thought we were defining our own identity we jump back to Ivy Lite status. The only league with banding is the Ivy. Now us. A tool aolely aimed at competitive parity. Has nothing to do with academics.
I think one can deem the talk of expansion as mere PR. Seriously who would join. Nova, W&M, Richmond, hell even VMI will not even consider us.
I am not a big fan of the AI but I dont really object to a league wide floor for recruits. Banding doesn't work in the IL why would anyone think it will in the PL.
I was unaware of this plan until yesterday. I must thank the astute postets on the Pard board for noting it. Implementation timing and actual mode have not been revealed. My hkpe is the PL refers it to committee for further study as it did with schollies. Heck that'll buy us 3 or 4 years.

[R3TRO]

There was an article that came out recently talking about Maine and New Hampshire being the last of the CAA North and then mentioned UNH interest in joining the PL.

[RichH2]

Heck why would they if banding is implemented?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm really, really confused by this. Banding has been in place for at least a couple years, updating it to the method used by the IL for (I think) the last 5-6 years.

There was a very good reason for the banding change, too.

Before there was one number for the academic level of your incoming class, and your average had to conform to one standard deviation below that. (That's also how it works currently for all Ivy Sports and PL sports except football and basketball.)

That meant that the highest academic schools, say, Harvard, were recruiting under a much tinier recruiting poll than, say, Penn.

Banding simply forces a particular distribution on the index: that teams can only recruit certain numbers of athletes in each band. Most need to be in the first "band", but you can also get some on the lower "bands", but only a certain number.

Crucial, though, was the institution of the AI "floor". Every Ivy school can recruit down to the "floor" in their lowest band. This now opened up new recruits for schools like Yale that used to not be able to touch certain players, but now could get 1-2 difference makers.

You can make a VERY compelling case that the implementation of bands for the PL is a critical reason why Georgetown has gone from laughingstock to realistic Patriot League championship material. I am positive they have athletes on their team now that five years ago would not have qualified under the different AI implementation.

But more germane to the topic at hand: why is an AI determined to be such a horrible straitjacket that ruins competitiveness? That sounds more like MplsBison than anyone who has actually watched a Lehigh game over the last two years. Lehigh has been competing with the banded AI for the last few years, without conventional scholarships. Northern Iowa and Towson fell to a team that might have been even better with conventional scholarships.

I'm not saying that there might not be other considerations that might make a Richmond or W&M pause about joining the PL - redshirting rules leap to mind. Yes, it's different, but something that wrecks PL competitiveness for NCAA championships? I don't think that argument holds water. If anything, banded AI is much, much better than the old way.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah - we've always had banding. I don't get what all the fuss is about. Maybe they'll play around with the structure a bit, but the AI isn't going away.

[RichH2]

That each school has to recruit within certain limits to insure that class average meets norm of entire class is a given. My concern is does the PL set the bands . Or is that left to each school. Admit I was unaware that we had bands at.all. Is UNH then required to have its recruit class meet PL bands even if that means it far exceeds avg for general school poulation?

In 2008, the floor was set and it was noted that academic bands wou ld be created. Were they? My lack of knowledge could certainly be my own inattention,but if we do hbe it I would like to know how it works.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Say UNH used out of state requirements inline with their general student population. How much different would their AI be?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That each school has to recruit within certain limits to insure that class average meets norm of entire class is a given. My concern is does the PL set the bands . Or is that left to each school. Admit I was unaware that we had bands at.all. Is UNH then required to have its recruit class meet PL bands even if that means it far exceeds avg for general school poulation?

In 2008, the floor was set and it was noted that academic bands wou ld be created. Were they? My lack of knowledge could certainly be my own inattention,but if we do hbe it I would like to know how it works.

The hard floor and the band requirements are set by the league. I forget what the actual numbers are, but Fordham has been happy to adhere to them even as they've been disqualified from the PL championship, which IMO speaks volumes.

To talk about UNH for a second, when I looked at UNH's roster a few years ago I think more than 2/3rds of the roster came from out-of-state, and while I don't know which ones were recruited athletes or not, it's a fair assessment that the great majority of UNH's team comes from places other than New Hampshire. And, crucially, once they've gone to UNH, they've graduated. Their APR/GSR is consistently one of the highest in all of Division I football, topping even other PL schools.

[RichH2]

Pl sets bands separately for each school?

[MplsBison]

Welcome to my world Rich.

The restrictions placed upon member schools by the Patriot League make me wonder if it wouldn't be better for some of the schools to consider going elsewhere. Why not? You've got the academic reputation now, even if the league filed a lawsuit to keep your marketing dept from using the term "Patriot League school". You're already known as one, that won't change for a while. And your admission standards aren't going to change regardless.

Don't see why Lehigh couldn't move over to the CAA and be known as the Stanford equivalent of that league. They do pretty well for playing with a bunch of public schools. xnodx

[carney2]

It's nice to have rules but are they monitored and controlled? When was the last time any Patriot League, or Ivy League for that matter, member got its hands slapped for playing loose with this cookie jar? What manner of penalties could be assessed? No more FiOS for you, Mr. Hoya!

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Welcome to my world Rich.

The restrictions placed upon member schools by the Patriot League make me wonder if it wouldn't be better for some of the schools to consider going elsewhere. Why not? You've got the academic reputation now, even if the league filed a lawsuit to keep your marketing dept from using the term "Patriot League school". You're already known as one, that won't change for a while. And your admission standards aren't going to change regardless.

Don't see why Lehigh couldn't move over to the CAA and be known as the Stanford equivalent of that league. They do pretty well for playing with a bunch of public schools. xnodx

I'm just old enough to remember Lehigh pre-PL and the schools reputation was never sullied. As a kid I remember basketball games against Towson, Rider, Drexel, Delaware, etc. Football was the Yankee and IL teams along with Army, Navy, Rutgers, Lafayette and Bucknell.

There's no denying the PL set Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh football back considerably the first 7 or 8 years. Holy Cross was at their peak, Lehigh was a national power in the late 70's, early 80's and Colgate was FBS.

[MplsBison]

I'm barely old enough to remember Lehigh pre-PL and the schools reputation was never sullied. As a kid I remember basketball games against Towson, Rider, Drexel, Delaware, etc. Football was the Yankee and IL teams along with Army, Navy, Rutgers, Lafayette and Bucknell.

There's no denying the PL set Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh football back considerably the first 7 or 8 years. Holy Cross was at their peak, Lehigh was a national power in the late 70's, early 80's and Colgate was FBS.

And that's a shame! Those schools probably could be I-A now and athletic equivalents of Northwestern/Boston College or something to that effect.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's nice to have rules but are they monitored and controlled? When was the last time any Patriot League, or Ivy League for that matter, member got its hands slapped for playing loose with this cookie jar? What manner of penalties could be assessed? No more FiOS for you, Mr. Hoya!

Harvard got excoriated in the NYT when they went back on their "gentleman's agreement" to not recruit basketball players close to the AI floor (even though there was no rule against it), and there are other cases in the Ivy League, too, if you look hard enough.

The presidents themselves are thought to be the check against the balance of athletics in the PL and IL worlds. The thought is, if (say) American starts bringing in too many non-PL-caliber kids academically, they will get their hands slapped in a variety of ways, possibly with sanctions against the offending school or the like, stripping of championships, etc., though there's no instance of that happening in the PL's 25 year history.

I think the nature of any crimes, and punishments, in that arena are very private. But who's to say that a school misses out on, say, a TV game over the issue? How would we know, short of a letter from Alice Gast on Lehigh stationary?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Welcome to my world Rich.

The restrictions placed upon member schools by the Patriot League make me wonder if it wouldn't be better for some of the schools to consider going elsewhere. Why not? You've got the academic reputation now, even if the league filed a lawsuit to keep your marketing dept from using the term "Patriot League school". You're already known as one, that won't change for a while. And your admission standards aren't going to change regardless.

Don't see why Lehigh couldn't move over to the CAA and be known as the Stanford equivalent of that league. They do pretty well for playing with a bunch of public schools. xnodx

Maybe the WAC will get Lehigh a call. xlolx

[MplsBison]

Maybe the WAC will get Lehigh a call.

Wouldn't be that far fetched. Afterall, there's no rule in the NCAA rulebook that would prevent the WAC from inviting 6 I-AA schools to be football-only members of the WAC.

[RichH2]

Welcome to my world Rich.

The restrictions placed upon member schools by the Patriot League make me wonder if it wouldn't be better for some of the schools to consider going elsewhere. Why not? You've got the academic reputation now, even if the league filed a lawsuit to keep your marketing dept from using the term "Patriot League school". You're already known as one, that won't change for a while. And your admission standards aren't going to change regardless.

Don't see why Lehigh couldn't move over to the CAA and be known as the Stanford equivalent of that league. They do pretty well for playing with a bunch of public schools. xnodx


Harvard got excoriated in the NYT when they went back on their "gentleman's agreement" to not recruit basketball players close to the AI floor (even though there was no rule against it), and there are other cases in the Ivy League, too, if you look hard enough.

The presidents themselves are thought to be the check against the balance of athletics in the PL and IL worlds. The thought is, if (say) American starts bringing in too many non-PL-caliber kids academically, they will get their hands slapped in a variety of ways, possibly with sanctions against the offending school or the like, stripping of championships, etc., though there's no instance of that happening in the PL's 25 year history.

I think the nature of any crimes, and punishments, in that arena are very private. But who's to say that a school misses out on, say, a TV game over the issue? How would we know, short of a letter from Alice Gast on Lehigh stationary?

And this is a good system? The problem for me I guess is that I dont see the need for it at all as it presumes that one or more schools would sabotage their rep for an edge. We are the PL not the SEC.

[carney2]

Don't see why Lehigh couldn't move over to the CAA and be known as the Stanford equivalent of that league. They do pretty well for playing with a bunch of public schools. xnodx

Everything is so freakin' simple when you live where tradition is defined by

"Don't show up at the hoedown with a corn tassel protruding from any bodily orifice."

[MplsBison]

That damned "T" word, rears it's ugly head again.

One of the worst damned words in our vocabulary. "Tradition" allowed little boys to be raped in Pennsylvania.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wouldn't be that far fetched. Afterall, there's no rule in the NCAA rulebook that would prevent the WAC from inviting 6 I-AA schools to be football-only members of the WAC.

As long as they don't call themselves an FBS conference, because if they're a conference that has two full members that play FBS football and six football-only members, they cannot sponsor an FBS conference.

[carney2]

That damned "T" word, rears it's ugly head again.

One of the worst damned words in our vocabulary. "Tradition" allowed little boys to be raped in Pennsylvania.

And now that the Penn State problem has seen the light of day and punishment has been meted out, Pennsylvanians can get back to their favorite pastime, hunting down ChickenSquawks and beating them with a blunt instrument. Nothing tugs the heart strings quite like road kill on South Mountain.

[Pard4Life]

I'm just old enough to remember Lehigh pre-PL and the schools reputation was never sullied. As a kid I remember basketball games against Towson, Rider, Drexel, Delaware, etc. Football was the Yankee and IL teams along with Army, Navy, Rutgers, Lafayette and Bucknell.

There's no denying the PL set Holy Cross, Colgate and Lehigh football back considerably the first 7 or 8 years. Holy Cross was at their peak, Lehigh was a national power in the late 70's, early 80's and Colgate was FBS.

The entire Lafayette athletics program went into the toilet upon joining the PL, except field hockey and women's lacrosse. We won championships in every sport in the 1980s (except men's lacrosse, surprise) and had a pretty good record each year. Then the PL came along and we have not been the same since.

Pard football suffered too... we had Baur and a bunch of other recruited under the old system and we were getting our act together very nicely under Russo in the 1980s. But the "study" is what did us in, not the move to the PL for football.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The entire Lafayette athletics program went into the toilet upon joining the PL, except field hockey and women's lacrosse. We won championships in every sport in the 1980s (except men's lacrosse, surprise) and had a pretty good record each year. Then the PL came along and we have not been the same since.

Pard football suffered too... we had Baur and a bunch of other recruited under the old system and we were getting our act together very nicely under Russo in the 1980s. But the "study" is what did us in, not the move to the PL for football.

P4L - was it the PL restrictions alone, or was it College Hill applying its own restrictions on top of the PL? One could make a case that it has been the latter until recently.

As troublesome as it has been, an argument could be made that Lafayette might have suffered the fate of Gettysburg, et al, absent PL membership. "Keeping Up with the Kolgates," so to speak, got us scholarships and kept us in Division I.

Our AD has been given the full scholarship green light and Coach T. appears to have been sitting on a long-established plan on his own to make those scholarships matter from the get-go.

The AI is a Patriot fact of life. It's not going away. But we now have a way (scholarships) to work within the AI and I think that good things will happen.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The entire Lafayette athletics program went into the toilet upon joining the PL, except field hockey and women's lacrosse. We won championships in every sport in the 1980s (except men's lacrosse, surprise) and had a pretty good record each year. Then the PL came along and we have not been the same since.

Pard football suffered too... we had Baur and a bunch of other recruited under the old system and we were getting our act together very nicely under Russo in the 1980s. But the "study" is what did us in, not the move to the PL for football.

I still, amazingly, remember when Lafayette beat Holy Cross in 1988 and what a big deal it was. Lafayette, overall, was better than Lehigh in the mid to late 80's. Then the 90's came along and outside of a of couple years Lehigh gradually began to pull away.

At the same time, I can still hear my dad complaining about HC during those days and their yearly dismantling of Lehigh.

[DFW HOYA]

You can make a VERY compelling case that the implementation of bands for the PL is a critical reason why Georgetown has gone from laughingstock to realistic Patriot League championship material. I am positive they have athletes on their team now that five years ago would not have qualified under the different AI implementation.

I'd be curious to see who you would claim to be on that list.

Georgetown is better team than they were from 2001-09 for two very simple (and non-AI) reasons)

1. Retention. The Hoyas of the 2000s had a lot of kids quit the team (for a variety of reasons) and keep their aid to stay in school, while the coaches were constantly shuttling in freshmen to fill the gaps. The 2012 team lost no one between spring practice and this week's camp--in past years, that number could be anywhere from 3-6, and you can't keep up the talent level on the field with ever larger freshmen recruiting classes (as many as 34 a year). 2012? Just 22.

2. Offensive coordinator. Dave Patenaude isn't the best OC in the nation but he was a significant step ahead of Elliot Uzelac and Jim Miceli, through whom the Hoyas managed to drop to 9.8 points per game by the 2008 season. You don't win games averaging nine points a game.

[Go...gate]

I still, amazingly, remember when Lafayette beat Holy Cross in 1988 and what a big deal it was. Lafayette, overall, was better than Lehigh in the mid to late 80's. Then the 90's came along and outside of a of couple years Lehigh gradually began to pull away.

At the same time, I can still hear my dad complaining about HC during those days and their yearly dismantling of Lehigh.

It was a big deal - that was a hell of a Lafayette team, the best I have seen in my years. I remember Baur was on the cover of SI the following fall.

[MplsBison]

And now that the Penn State problem has seen the light of day and punishment has been meted out, Pennsylvanians can get back to their favorite pastime, hunting down ChickenSquawks and beating them with a blunt instrument. Nothing tugs the heart strings quite like road kill on South Mountain.

My guess is they'd rather watch Lehigh or Lafayette with a legitimate chance to compete for the national title, as full scholarship, no recruiting restrictions programs. And, of course, the academic reputations of the schools not being harmed one iota.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I remember Baur was on the cover of SI the following fall.


Never hurts to be reminded.


http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/5914/frankbauronsportsillust.jpg




EDIT: Word has it that MplsBison himself soon will find his own smiling mug on the cover of SI once he proves how that Patriot League-touting cover really never happened. I mean, how could it? Remember - volume, proximity and repetition are the keys to any successful argument. We await the response.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Never hurts to be reminded.


http://img807.imageshack.us/img807/5914/frankbauronsportsillust.jpg

I hated him. Carry on.

[MplsBison]

I hated him. Carry on.

Slept with your daughter?

[Sader87]

http://http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/edb/reader.html?magID=SI&issueDate=19861110&mode=reader_vault

How about a feature story in SI???

[Bogus Megapardus]

Slept with your daughter?


Incorrect. In fact, you are his illegitimate progeny. The ultimate Sports Illustrated jinx.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'd be curious to see who you would claim to be on that list.

Georgetown is better team than they were from 2001-09 for two very simple (and non-AI) reasons)

1. Retention. The Hoyas of the 2000s had a lot of kids quit the team (for a variety of reasons) and keep their aid to stay in school, while the coaches were constantly shuttling in freshmen to fill the gaps. The 2012 team lost no one between spring practice and this week's camp--in past years, that number could be anywhere from 3-6, and you can't keep up the talent level on the field with ever larger freshmen recruiting classes (as many as 34 a year). 2012? Just 22.

2. Offensive coordinator. Dave Patenaude isn't the best OC in the nation but he was a significant step ahead of Elliot Uzelac and Jim Miceli, through whom the Hoyas managed to drop to 9.8 points per game by the 2008 season. You don't win games averaging nine points a game.

In 2006, your defense consisted of Etekuren, Buzbee, and not much else. In 2012, you had Schaetzke, who was an incredibly talented defensive end, two linebackers with over 100 tackles (McCabe and Wharton), an extremely solid secondary with Hemuli, Kasimbah and Moore.

You are right that retention plays a big part - maybe the Moore's and Wharton's, don't stick around in '06 - and Patenaude you could make a case was the best OC in the nation when you consider the depths from which the Hoya offense came from. But I believe the Hoyas also benefited from a larger talent pool. No school was as adversely affected by the old AI than Georgetown.

[carney2]

P4L - was it the PL restrictions alone, or was it College Hill applying its own restrictions on top of the PL?

We did it to ourselves, or rather, our employees who we trusted, did it to us.

[carney2]

My guess is they'd rather watch Lehigh or Lafayette with a legitimate chance to compete for the national title, as full scholarship, no recruiting restrictions programs. And, of course, the academic reputations of the schools not being harmed one iota.

Sounds like a plan. I'm supporting you for PL head honcho.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Sounds like a plan. I'm supporting you for PL head honcho.

Why not? The commissioner of MplsBison's Missouri Valley Conference is a PL (Lafayette) alum, after all (I believe he's known colloquially as "The Flyover Pard"). So we'll take MplsBison plus an additional unfettered, intermeddling interloper to be named later. Throw in some cash and you've got a deal.

[RichH2]

Money and a muzzle works for me.

[MplsBison]

Sounds like a plan. I'm supporting you for PL head honcho.

I know things aren't going to change.

Do you at least accept that Northwestern has the reputation of an elite academic while maintaining an athletic department filled with student-athletes that do not tarnish that reputation and yet are able to compete in a conference of public schools with no recruiting restrictions?

Do you accept it or reject it?