state of the socon

[fc97]

a lot of udelaware fans keep talking about elon, charleston, davidson for all and albany, stony brook for football only.

what are the sources on this? socon media adam smith and jeff hartzell say the socon is only worried about losing app, gsu and charleston and are going to get proactive about adding schools rather than reactive when they leave. but, indecision between members schools and up to 6 schools saying they are willing to leave (app, furman, elon, uncg, charleston, davidson).

apparently a lot of argument and bad discussion at the last meeting. and, word has it, the socon has a rule that states any school that has announced intentions to leave cannot vote on membership matters. some people are thinking that this means any number of that above group cannot vote at the moment.

[PaladinFan]

a lot of udelaware fans keep talking about elon, charleston, davidson for all and albany, stony brook for football only.

what are the sources on this? socon media adam smith and jeff hartzell say the socon is only worried about losing app, gsu and charleston and are going to get proactive about adding schools rather than reactive when they leave. but, indecision between members schools and up to 6 schools saying they are willing to leave (app, furman, elon, uncg, charleston, davidson).

apparently a lot of argument and bad discussion at the last meeting. and, word has it, the socon has a rule that states any school that has announced intentions to leave cannot vote on membership matters. some people are thinking that this means any number of that above group cannot vote at the moment.

I have said this umpteen times, but in my experience, the SoCon rarely publicizes what it is doing. I really cannot ever remember where it did, actually. My personal feeling is that we need to wait and hear from the conference, instead of feeding off message board nonsense.

[RadioFan]

If at least two basketball schools leave then I see the SoCon adding two all-sport members to fill their shoes. That will protect them from a huge hole when/if they lose App/GaSo.

I don't see all 6 of those schools jumping ship.

[Apphole]

a lot of udelaware fans keep talking about elon, charleston, davidson for all and albany, stony brook for football only.

what are the sources on this? socon media adam smith and jeff hartzell say the socon is only worried about losing app, gsu and charleston and are going to get proactive about adding schools rather than reactive when they leave. but, indecision between members schools and up to 6 schools saying they are willing to leave (app, furman, elon, uncg, charleston, davidson).

apparently a lot of argument and bad discussion at the last meeting. and, word has it, the socon has a rule that states any school that has announced intentions to leave cannot vote on membership matters. some people are thinking that this means any number of that above group cannot vote at the moment.

SoCon and proactive in the same sentence? Either some SoCon people have an acne problem or I don't believe adam smith and jeff hartzell,

[fc97]

it depends on what you mean by proactive. the socon had its selection before vmi left. just because it wasnt a choice that some fans liked doesnt mean they werent proactive about the selection.

right now, proactive means, meetings to discuss potential membership before any membership changes. reactive would be scheduling this meeting after 2-6 members leave.

so yes, proactive.

[GlassOnion]

right now, proactive means, meetings to discuss potential membership before any membership changes. reactive would be scheduling this meeting after 2-6 members leave.

so yes, proactive.

No. The definition of proactive does not change on a whim. Reactive & proactive do not mean one thing today, and something totally different tomorrow. Thats not how it works.

The SoCon called the meetings in response to external factors which they do not control. The SoCon knew the CAA was losing schools months ago, and did nothing. The SoCon was asked by the CAA for contact with certain schools, the SoCon still did nothing. Now we're at the point where a decision may finally be made, the SoCon still has no plan. Thats right, NO PLAN, as stated by the Chattanooga AD just the day before yesterday.

The SoCon's response is by definition, reactive.

[CID1990]

Charleston will leave (hopefully) and wherever they go, they will generate animosity with the other schools because they enjoy an unfair economic advantage in basketball (because they do not spend on football, and never will in the foreseeable future). They also are fairly mercenary in baseball, relying heavily on JUCO transfers who are simply looking for a pathway to the majors. IMO they would be no better fit in the CAA than they are in the SoCon, but sometimes people just have to find out the hard way.

Davidson is not coming out of the PL in football, so forget it. They are firmly opposed to scholarship football. Any speculation otherwise is simply silly talk. Wherever these two schools go it will not be as football playing members.

Personally I hope they leave because it will afford the SoCon the opportunity to add football schools to the roster. With all the things that are going on with realignment I would say that a patient approach will likely be best. It might even be possible to poach a school away from the CAA, especially if it seems if GSU and ASU are both on the cusp of departing. Right now it looks like we might have a couple years before those two have a realistic opportunity to leave, and by then things will have shaken out with the CAA and others.

Although I don't like the prospect, CCU is probably going to eventually get an invite, but that might push Furman somewhat. Gardner Webb would be a good prospect. Even Presbyterian could make the move, although I wouldn't mind looking into Tennessee or Georgia for another school or two.

[fc97]

you, among other fans, has hailed the caa as being proactive here. by your definition, everything they are doing is then reactive to the loss of vcu and odu. in other words, they are working to add after the fact

the socon can only call the meeting, without the members agreeing on or formulating a plan, there is nothing the conference can do. the conference has so far been proactive about the handling of the matter

as for who to add, coastal, vmi and kennesaw come immediately to mind. kennesaw becomes immediately attractive. there is also north alabama. though it is rumored that the conference is looking for 14, even if two schools go. you could then see perhaps winthrop or someone like that added.

[OL FU]

Charleston will leave (hopefully) and wherever they go, they will generate animosity with the other schools because they enjoy an unfair economic advantage in basketball (because they do not spend on football, and never will in the foreseeable future). They also are fairly mercenary in baseball, relying heavily on JUCO transfers who are simply looking for a pathway to the majors. IMO they would be no better fit in the CAA than they are in the SoCon, but sometimes people just have to find out the hard way.

Davidson is not coming out of the PL in football, so forget it. They are firmly opposed to scholarship football. Any speculation otherwise is simply silly talk. Wherever these two schools go it will not be as football playing members.

Personally I hope they leave because it will afford the SoCon the opportunity to add football schools to the roster. With all the things that are going on with realignment I would say that a patient approach will likely be best. It might even be possible to poach a school away from the CAA, especially if it seems if GSU and ASU are both on the cusp of departing. Right now it looks like we might have a couple years before those two have a realistic opportunity to leave, and by then things will have shaken out with the CAA and others.

Although I don't like the prospect, CCU is probably going to eventually get an invite, but that might push Furman somewhat. Gardner Webb would be a good prospect. Even Presbyterian could make the move, although I wouldn't mind looking into Tennessee or Georgia for another school or two.

I generally agree although I would hate to lose Davidson. I know they left and came back but originally joined when FU ( and I think the Citadel) did in '36. Hate that they don't play football in the conference. Would give everyone a chance at revenge for basketball.

I, like you, don't mind if CofC leaves.

I have heard the rumor but I am not sure why Furman is so opposed to CCU (or if they even are). I am sure Furman would prefer some like minded institutions but I think one of the things that has made the Socon interesting over the years is the diversity.

In my opinion PC makes no sense at all unless Furman leaves. Mainly because I don't think we need three small private schools all within 40 miles of each other.

[AshevilleApp2]

Bring back William and Mary and Richmond.

[MplsBison]

What about North Alabama or even Alabama St (with new stadium)?

[asumike83]

I have heard the rumor but I am not sure why Furman is so opposed to CCU (or if they even are). I am sure Furman would prefer some like minded institutions but I think one of the things that has made the Socon interesting over the years is the diversity.


I would very much like to add Coastal. They would be a solid addition for the SoCon, especially if they hope to remain a top mid-major baseball conference.

[fc97]

kennesaw also would add a good baseball program. if they are bent on expanding and getting in a good non-football member, mercer or stetson would seem to be a good way to go too and moves the conference out of the carolinas some. I just don't see any of the public tennessee schools wanting to come except maybe etsu. north alabama would also seem a logical choice.

the problem with coastal is that the sc market is saturated for the conference already.

[Skjellyfetti]

the problem with coastal is that the sc market is saturated for the conference already.

I really don't see why this matters considering no one wants to put us on television. I can't think of a reasonable team we could add that would help much in that regard.

Increasing television markets is important for FBS conferences... seems a conference like the SoCon should focus on reducing travel costs... because that's all the conference is for-- convenient scheduling.

[GlassOnion]

you, among other fans, has hailed the caa as being proactive here.

No. I havent.

The CAA had no chance at being proactive, because nobody in their right minds, could have prepared for Ga St, a school with a piss poor half established football program, getting an FBS invite. ODU was equally a surprise, being that they were 2 years into a program, and far outside of the Sun Belt footprint. Nobody had any clue that Cusa would take a 2 year old FCS program, not even the Cusa folks.

The VCU move was facilitated by the impending loss of Ga St and ODU.

[MplsBison]

No. I havent.

The CAA had no chance at being proactive, because nobody in their right minds, could have prepared for Ga St, a school with a piss poor half established football program, getting an FBS invite. ODU was equally a surprise, being that they were 2 years into a program, and far outside of the Sun Belt footprint. Nobody had any clue that Cusa would take a 2 year old FCS program, not even the Cusa folks.

The VCU move was facilitated by the impending loss of Ga St and ODU.

Sorry but, that's the 1980's way of thinking and I absolutely do believe that anyone with a modern understanding of conference economics could've recognized the market potential of a team like GSU or ODU from a mile away. VCU also has a good market in Richmond and success that earned them an invitation to a better bball conference.

[fc97]

glassonion,

not true, vcu and gmu were both long rumored to be in talks with the a-10 and did nothing. gsu and odu both stated fbs ambitions and the conference did nothing. in effort, being way less proactive than the socon.

[fc97]

I really don't see why this matters considering no one wants to put us on television. I can't think of a reasonable team we could add that would help much in that regard.

Increasing television markets is important for FBS conferences... seems a conference like the SoCon should focus on reducing travel costs... because that's all the conference is for-- convenient scheduling.

because athletics, and the conference in general, are about putting your name and brand in other markets even if it is on the news, newspaper, local tv, pbs or whatever. it is all cheap advertising for the school. if you already have this covered in an area, you dont need more.

[asumike83]

because athletics, and the conference in general, are about putting your name and brand in other markets even if it is on the news, newspaper, local tv, pbs or whatever. it is all cheap advertising for the school. if you already have this covered in an area, you dont need more.

True, but it is all about cost effectiveness. The SoCon does not get a lot of media coverage and does not currently have a TV deal. Is adding limited exposure in a new area worth the added travel costs that the members will incur? That is the question and it is one that I don't have an answer for.

[fc97]

True, but it is all about cost effectiveness. The SoCon does not get a lot of media coverage and does not currently have a TV deal. Is adding limited exposure in a new area worth the added travel costs that the members will incur? That is the question and it is one that I don't have an answer for.

exactly, and it may be a problem that drives direction. for the public, regional schools, getting the name into new regions is probably not that important as recruiting does not come from there. so adding a new school in the recruiting area makes sense. but for other schools that recruit outside the area, the adding more outside makes sense. problem is, that is probably a difference in direction of elon/davidson/charleston who are carolinas and north; furman/samford/wofford who are carolinas and south; western who is primarily carolinas; utc who is primarily tenn/ga. no answer here either.

[cbarrier90]

Gardner Webb would be a good prospect. Even Presbyterian could make the move...

It's sad that this isn't far-fetched...

[OL FU]

I would very much like to add Coastal. They would be a solid addition for the SoCon, especially if they hope to remain a top mid-major baseball conference.

me too

[OL FU]

Bring back William and Mary and Richmond.

And interesting thought. I wonder if we would consider football only members

[SU_IT_able]

True, but it is all about cost effectiveness.

Cost is a factor, but not the only factor. When my school moved from the OVC to the SoCon, our costs went up, not down. Stated simply, the SoCon was a better fit for a number of reasons in spite of a manageable increase in cost. How you determine fit is going to vary from school to school. It could even vary for a particular school from one timeframe to another.

Also agree 100% that there has been a double standard by at least one poster in calling the CAA proactive but the SoCon reactive. Excellent rebuttal by fc97!

[zilla]

because athletics, and the conference in general, are about putting your name and brand in other markets even if it is on the news, newspaper, local tv, pbs or whatever. it is all cheap advertising for the school. if you already have this covered in an area, you dont need more.

Agree with everything you've stated FC, but just to play devil's advocate...going by your quote above, why did the SoCon add CofC in the first place (especially with The Citadel being "crosstown")?

[fc97]

idk, my guess is one gives exposure for football and military background and the other gave exposure for basketball. they were two different models to give exposure to.

kind of like elon and uncg, uncg gave basketball but elon gave football. so with the two it forces year round exposure.

at least that is the thought.

[walliver]

The SoCon is in a somewhat tenuous balance between "privates" and "publics", mush like the old Southwestern Conference.

If any schools leave, their replacements will probably be selected in such a way as to maintain the balance.

I doubt ASU is leaving. Furman also is unlikely. Elon is a possibility. If Furman or Elon leaves, the SoCon will probaly look to a private (or private-like) school such as PC (if FU leaves) or Gardner-Webb or even VMI. If ASU leaves, then CCU or JSU would be likely targets. If FU and Elon leave together, then the balance would be broken and all bets are off. My guess is that no FB school will leave.

If CofC leaves then the conference would probably go after someone like Kennesaw State or Winthrop. If Davy leaves then the conference would look at Mercer or Jacksonville U as non-football members. If both leave, they shouldn't be replaced - going to two divisions hasn't upgraded basketball at all.

The problem with being proactive is that it is hard to maintain the current balance without knowing exactly who may be leaving. Replacing ASU and GSU should not be rushed. Neither school is being courted by FBS conferences. GSU is probably 5 years away, and by that time, there may no longer be FBS and FCS subdivisions.

"Proactive" sounds better than "reactive", but if you guess wrong you can make things much worse. Bringing in privates to replace FU and Elon would likely drive off ASU, GSU and UTC if FU and Elon didn't leave. Bringing in Coastal and Jacksonville State to replace the FBS-wannabes could drive away the privates, especially if ASU and GSU's departures do not occur soon.

Reports are that at the emergency meeting of presidents last week, that they couldn't agree on where to go next. That is unfortunately what led to the downfall of the SouthWest Conference.

[walliver]

idk, my guess is one gives exposure for football and military background and the other gave exposure for basketball. they were two different models to give exposure to.

kind of like elon and uncg, uncg gave basketball but elon gave football. so with the two it forces year round exposure.

at least that is the thought.

I suspect CofC was brought in with the hope of upgrading the conference's basketball status (it didn't work, CofC hasn't been the same since Kresse retired)! UNC-G was brought in in order to have two divisions in basketball. Elon was brought into the conference much later when VMI left. I doubt the SoCon would have added UNC-G and Elon at the same time (this would probably about the time Elon was transitioning from D-II.

Wofford joined at the same time as CofC and UNC-G in order to replace Marshall and increase the teeth-per-student ratio.

[SU_IT_able]

they couldn't agree on where to go next. That is unfortunately what led to the downfall of the SouthWest Conference.

Perhaps, but with at least equal credit due to rampant cheating, knives delivered squarely in each others' backs, and fall out from SMU's death penalty.

I think what all this points out is that you can only go so far down the road to proactivity without getting lost. We have some cautious leadership (leading our schools) & that's not a bad thing.

[CID1990]

I generally agree although I would hate to lose Davidson. I know they left and came back but originally joined when FU ( and I think the Citadel) did in '36. Hate that they don't play football in the conference. Would give everyone a chance at revenge for basketball.

I, like you, don't mind if CofC leaves.

I have heard the rumor but I am not sure why Furman is so opposed to CCU (or if they even are). I am sure Furman would prefer some like minded institutions but I think one of the things that has made the Socon interesting over the years is the diversity.

In my opinion PC makes no sense at all unless Furman leaves. Mainly because I don't think we need three small private schools all within 40 miles of each other.

Yep PC is a stretch, but possible if the conference finds itself caught unawares when multiple schools leave.

Also agree on Davidson, but my hope was that they would come around on the football issue but now I know it isn't going to happen.

[AppMan]

I'd like to see the SoCon get back to where it only admits schools with fully funded athletic scholarship football programs. Losing CofC will hurt basketball to a degree and the conf basebnall RPI. Davidson takes a big bite out of the basketball RPI, but in reality they bring little else to the league. Those two have the largest basketball budgets, bu far, in the league since they do not fund football. It gives them a tremendous advantage over the rest of the league programs. IMO the two no brainer schools for consideration are Liberty and Jax State.

[asumike83]

I'd like to see the SoCon get back to where it only admits schools with fully funded athletic scholarship football programs. Losing CofC will hurt basketball to a degree and the conf basebnall RPI. Davidson takes a big bite out of the basketball RPI, but in reality they bring little else to the league. Those two have the largest basketball budgets, bu far, in the league since they do not fund football. It gives them a tremendous advantage over the rest of the league programs. IMO the two no brainer schools for consideration are Liberty and Jax State.

Would love to get Liberty and Jacksonville State too but since both have FBS aspirations, I'm not sure they would make the move.

[Saint3333]

PC and GWebb? We're setting bar pretty low.

[AppMan]

Would love to get Liberty and Jacksonville State too but since both have FBS aspirations, I'm not sure they would make the move.

Hard enough to make the jump from FCS to FBS let alone from the Big South and OVC. Not intended as a put down by any stretch, but one look at the success / failure of those conferences in the playoffs the past 20 years says a lot. Probably more reluctance from the SoCon than Liberty or Jax State in admitting them.

[AppMan]

PC and GWebb? We're setting bar pretty low.

Yep. Kinda like hitting the wall below the dart board.

[fc97]

jax state and liberty would be stupid additions. instead of creating a stable conference, you add 2 more schools that will jump and leave the rest high and dry in a few years. neither of those are forward thinking for anyone left in the conference

[cbarrier90]

jax state and liberty would be stupid additions. instead of creating a stable conference, you add 2 more schools that will jump and leave the rest high and dry in a few years. neither of those are forward thinking for anyone left in the conference

To say that adding two schools with aspirations isn't "forward thinking" for the conference is contradictory.

Presbyterian would be a perennial bottom-feeder in the Southern Conference and Gardner Webb brings nothing other than geography. Congratulations. Instead of grabbing another Furman, UTC, or GSU, we take another Samford and Western.

And it's worth repeating again: ASU wants the best situation for its football program and overall athletic department to sustain and grow is successes. Liberty and Jax State are much more like-minded institutions from ASU's perspective.

[Sly Fox]

Interesting side note ... do you know who was the commissioner of the Southwest Conference as it rode off the cliff? None other than current Big South commissioner Kyle Kallendar. Small world, huh?

And let the record show that this Liberty fan believes his alma mater has ZERO interest in the SoCon right now. The CAA merits some thought, but the Liberty ship has sailed for the SoCon. We would have gladly come into port once upon a time. But not today.

[CID1990]

Interesting side note ... do you know who was the commissioner of the Southwest Conference as it rode off the cliff? None other than current Big South commissioner Kyle Kallendar. Small world, huh?

And let the record show that this Liberty fan believes his alma mater has ZERO interest in the SoCon right now. The CAA merits some thought, but the Liberty ship has sailed for the SoCon. We would have gladly come into port once upon a time. But not today.

That's ok we already have Furman.

[OL FU]

To say that adding two schools with aspirations isn't "forward thinking" for the conference is contradictory.

Presbyterian would be a perennial bottom-feeder in the Southern Conference and Gardner Webb brings nothing other than geography. Congratulations. Instead of grabbing another Furman, UTC, or GSU, we take another Samford and Western.

And it's worth repeating again: ASU wants the best situation for its football program and overall athletic department to sustain and grow is successes. Liberty and Jax State are much more like-minded institutions from ASU's perspective.

I am going to agree and disagree. We shouldn't take a school that is saying before they join their goal is to leave. JAX ST would have jumped at the opportunity 10 years ago, don't think they would join now anyway.

I agree on PC and GW. Unless there is a a reason to believe that they are going to get much better we should leave them alone. (and I am talking football here, not other sports)

[OL FU]

That's ok we already have Furman.

:p

I am offically insulted by the comparison. xlolx


no offense slyfoxxthumbsupx

[fc97]

To say that adding two schools with aspirations isn't "forward thinking" for the conference is contradictory.

Presbyterian would be a perennial bottom-feeder in the Southern Conference and Gardner Webb brings nothing other than geography. Congratulations. Instead of grabbing another Furman, UTC, or GSU, we take another Samford and Western.

And it's worth repeating again: ASU wants the best situation for its football program and overall athletic department to sustain and grow is successes. Liberty and Jax State are much more like-minded institutions from ASU's perspective.

look im not saying that pc and gw are choices, i am stating that the conference is an affiliation of members. app and gsu have already said they are short-timing it. the conference would be foolish to take in members who have already said they're leaving.

you were whining the conference wasnt being proactive. to the other 10 members, taking in 2 schools that leave with you is not being proactive at all. its more damaging than anything. instead of a good position based on the proactive decisions, you end up in a worse position when they all leave together.

why even bring up pc and gw in this sentence. its not about them.

[fc97]

why do app fans focus on the schools that have no shot at being considered? seriously, kennesaw is probably the #1 idea. maybe mercer second or vmi, etsu.

[Saint3333]

App fans didn't bring up PC and GWebb...

[fc97]

but once mentioned, thats all they harp on

[PaladinFan]

I believe Presbyterian and Gardner Webb have about as much of a chance of being in the SoCon as I do of being president. Which is to say, none at all.

[asumike83]

Presbyterian and Gardner-Webb may get more consideration than we think. I don't see Liberty, Jacksonville State or any CAA members making the jump right now and options are limited, especially if enough members turn their nose at Coastal.

Give me the Chants! We need more dawgs!

[Apphole]

Presbyterian and Gardner-Webb may get more consideration than we think. I don't see Liberty, Jacksonville State or any CAA members making the jump right now and options are limited, especially if enough members turn their nose at Coastal.

Give me the Chants! We need more dawgs!

GW and Presby are cats. Lookin' in the mirror. "Do I look gooood?....Do I have manew shoooes own, got maextra bands on!" We need more daaawgs.....

[SU_IT_able]

Presbyterian would be a perennial bottom-feeder in the Southern Conference and Gardner Webb brings nothing other than geography. Congratulations. Instead of grabbing another Furman, UTC, or GSU, we take another Samford and Western.

Excuse me? In spite of several predictions on this board that it would take years for Samford to win a SoCon FB game and now a new assertion that we are a bottom feeder, neither is the case. Here are a few relevant conference records (08-11): WCU 3-29, Cit 7-25, Chat 12-20, Sam 13-19. Middle of the pack is still humbling for a school that excels in most of its endeavors, but give me a break, if we are bottom feeders, we've got a lot of company!

[walliver]

Excuse me? In spite of several predictions on this board that it would take years for Samford to win a SoCon FB game and now a new assertion that we are a bottom feeder, neither is the case. Here are a few relevant conference records (08-11): WC 3-29, Cit 7-25, Chat 12-20, Sam 13-19. Middle of the pack is still humbling for a school that excels in most of its endeavors, but give me a break, if we are bottom feeders, we've got a lot of company!

I assume you meant to write WCU 3-29. WC (Wofford) has 3 SoCon championships in the last decade, not 3 conference wins in 4 years.

[SU_IT_able]

Yep...newbie doesn't have all the short hand down. :-) There...fixed it.

[fc97]

pc and gw are not going to get looks. no offense to gw people, but if the conference is going to be a private school conference of great schools, then gw doesnt fit. but thats not the aim of the conference, its balance.

if davidson and cofc leave, winthrop and mercer get looks first. if a football school leaves, you can count on kennesaw or coastal.

yes, options are limited, but the socon has a balance to maintain and there are a lot more choices than some people want to admit to. youd rather have your darkest days come to life so that you can complain more and show more than the conference is screwing you.

[fc97]

plus samford is one of the top schools in the conference for womens' sports

[chattownmocs]

What about Belmont for basketball? I am ignorant about them for the most part. I do know that they are a great basketball program. Would it be a step down for them?

[CID1990]

What about Belmont for basketball? I am ignorant about them for the most part. I do know that they are a great basketball program. Would it be a step down for them?

Why would we want to bring in another no-football school?

Oh. Chatty fan never mind.

[cbarrier90]

Excuse me? In spite of several predictions on this board that it would take years for Samford to win a SoCon FB game and now a new assertion that we are a bottom feeder, neither is the case. Here are a few relevant conference records (08-11): WCU 3-29, Cit 7-25, Chat 12-20, Sam 13-19. Middle of the pack is still humbling for a school that excels in most of its endeavors, but give me a break, if we are bottom feeders, we've got a lot of company!

What has Samford added to the Southern Conference besides women's basketball, a consistently average football team with no rivals, a private school, and a road trip outside the conference footprint?

[AppMan]

why do app fans focus on the schools that have no shot at being considered? seriously, kennesaw is probably the #1 idea. maybe mercer second or vmi, etsu.

Kennesaw, Mercer, GW, PC, VM-1.... and some people sill wonder why ASU wants out of this league. Guess Elon needs someone they can beat on the football field.

[SU_IT_able]

What about Belmont for basketball? I am ignorant about them for the most part. I do know that they are a great basketball program. Would it be a step down for them?

Belmont is switching from the ASun to the OVC this year. While they may grow weary of being the only private school in the old KY/TN teacher's college circuit, I can't imagine them making another move on short notice.

They are following a path in some ways similar to Samford (who also played in the ASun for a while then moved to the OVC for a few years), but they are a stronger geographical fit in the OVC while Samford was kind of a borderliner in both conferences. My perception is that Belmont is much more of a one sport school (Men's Basketball) than Samford and I don't know that they perceive the SoCon's basketball as better than the OVC...especially if we are talking about post CoC and - heaven forbid - Davidson. I truly believe our best chance with Belmont will be a few years down the road if they feel like an outlier academically in the OVC.

[SU_IT_able]

What has Samford added to the Southern Conference besides women's basketball, a consistently average football team with no rivals, a private school, and a road trip outside the conference footprint?

OK, I'll bite...baseball, women's soccer & women's volleyball (along with women's basketball) are all winning or contending for championships. Most all the other sports except men's basketball and women's softball are at least middle of the pack. We will have a new men's basketball coach this coming season and a 2nd year softball coach...so time will tell with those two. We have had men's basketball success in the past...no reason why we can't do it again. Rivalries take time. We just need to beat the traditional powers a little more often and that will take care of itself. You should follow your team to Birmingham this fall. Seibert Stadium is a great place to watch a game. I think you'd be surprised and impressed with the school and the area. Lots of nice restaurants, hotels, shopping.

[Saint3333]

What has Samford added to the Southern Conference besides women's basketball, a consistently average football team with no rivals, a private school, and a road trip outside the conference footprint?

They have added plenty in women's sports and been middle of the pack in the big three, football, basketball, and baseball. Overall they've performed better their first four years than Elon did in their first four years. Actually if you're looking objectively at ALL sports Samford would rank in the top half of the conference the last couple of years.

[fc97]

samford has added pretty much a lot to any sport outside the big three. being runner up for the womens' sports cup with less sports than the winner both years. overall better than many established public schools. better than elon, who still was rarely the worst overall program or worst male or female set of programs.

[fc97]

appman, everyone knows app wants out. its got nothing to do with the conference, future members or present members. whine as you will about who any future members are, but, comments like that are nothing but devisive to a group you have already dumped on. drop it

[stillabrave]

Brand new to this forum, first post. I'm a West Georgia fan and would dearly love to see UWG become a member of SOCON. A feasibility study is being conducted now to determine if we can successfully make the move to D1/FCS. There is an enthusiastic core of fans who think this absolutely the right move.

Enrollment has reached approximately 12,000 and the campus is expanding steadily. I'd like to take this opportunity to invite all of you for a visit. If you can't come in person, please go on-line and look at our athletic facilities. I think you'll be impressed. We'd like to become part of your discussion.

[fc97]

http://www.thetimesnews.com/sports/southern-57580-spartanburg-topics.html

Article from the times news today about socon expansion and state of the conference

[PaladinFan]

Brand new to this forum, first post. I'm a West Georgia fan and would dearly love to see UWG become a member of SOCON. A feasibility study is being conducted now to determine if we can successfully make the move to D1/FCS. There is an enthusiastic core of fans who think this absolutely the right move.

Enrollment has reached approximately 12,000 and the campus is expanding steadily. I'd like to take this opportunity to invite all of you for a visit. If you can't come in person, please go on-line and look at our athletic facilities. I think you'll be impressed. We'd like to become part of your discussion.

Welcome to the board. Know your school well. Enjoyed our game against them a few years ago.

[AppMan]

appman, everyone knows app wants out. its got nothing to do with the conference, future members or present members. whine as you will about who any future members are, but, comments like that are nothing but devisive to a group you have already dumped on. drop it

Hummm... A member of this board less than a year and you're already trying to tell people what not to say. Typical Elon fan. FYI, As long as ASU is in this conference you better darn well better believe we've got something to say about who gets in. What the league does after we announce our leaving is completely different. BTW, how ASU or myself has "dumped on this (what) group".

[CID1990]

FYI, As long as ASU is in this conference you better darn well better believe we've got something to say about who gets in.

Actually I read somewhere a few days ago (forget where I saw it but I think it may have been a news article from this board or on CS) that the SoCon bylaws preclude member schools from voting on new members if those member schools have made official their intent to leave the conference.

I think you were making the distinction between actually announcing a move versus announcing the intent to move. Not sure which one of these applies under the bylaws, but I got the impression that the active solicitation of invites from other conferences/leagues is considered official intent?

[Sandlapper Spike]

My understanding is that until Appalachian State and/or Georgia Southern "officially" announce they are leaving the SoCon, they can still vote on bylaws, membership, etc.

From a practical perspective, though, I am not sure why the other schools in the league should take Appy's temperature on membership issues if it is set on leaving anyway.

[Saint3333]

If App shouldn't have a say in SoCon matters does that mean our exit costs will be less as we've given two years notice?

Should work both ways.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I disagree. The exit fee is to compensate the league for a (hopefully) short-term inconvenience. Membership issues are very much a long-term proposition. If Appalachian State isn't going to be in the league much longer anyway, there is no reason for other SoCon schools to consider what Appy would want in terms of future member schools, because Appy won't be in the conference.

That's different from voting on short-term issues like, for example, number of league basketball games, divisional formats, etc.

[Saint3333]

There is still an exit fee, just reduced. An exit shouldn't be a shock at this point.

[AppMan]

Actually I read somewhere a few days ago (forget where I saw it but I think it may have been a news article from this board or on CS) that the SoCon bylaws preclude member schools from voting on new members if those member schools have made official their intent to leave the conference.

I think you were making the distinction between actually announcing a move versus announcing the intent to move. Not sure which one of these applies under the bylaws, but I got the impression that the active solicitation of invites from other conferences/leagues is considered official intent?

That is why I included this part....What the league does after we announce our leaving is completely different.

[SoCon48]

http://www.thetimesnews.com/sports/southern-57580-spartanburg-topics.html

Article from the times news today about socon expansion and state of the conference

I agree with the commisioner on this part:

“The ability to go from one end of the conference to the other in a reasonable travel time so that we’re not missing a lot of classes and we’re not expending a lot of dollars, that’s very important to the group.”

[fc97]

i dont know saint, maybe it does, i personally have only seen pieces of the bylaws, not the complete list. all I know is that the wording on voting for new members is fairly hazy.

appalachian has announced they are leaving. your president and ad have told the other schools youll be leaving without a timeframe. that is, by legal terms, intention to leave. the entry and exit fee, on the other hand, is clear in that it strictly applies to severing membership and not taking benefit in scheduling, profit sharing, etc.

so, no, it doesnt really work both ways.

[PaladinFan]

i dont know saint, maybe it does, i personally have only seen pieces of the bylaws, not the complete list. all I know is that the wording on voting for new members is fairly hazy.

appalachian has announced they are leaving. your president and ad have told the other schools youll be leaving without a timeframe. that is, by legal terms, intention to leave. the entry and exit fee, on the other hand, is clear in that it strictly applies to severing membership and not taking benefit in scheduling, profit sharing, etc.

so, no, it doesnt really work both ways.

I would be interested to know if the SoCon would take the CAA's approach and shut the leaving institutions out of post season play under the conference banner. The schools can make the post season as an at-large selection, but would be precluded from using the conference's automatic bid.

[fc97]

with gsu and appalachian still allowed to vote on that, utc on the edge, and potentially elon, furman or uncg on the cusp of other conference plans; it just dont see a vote like this winning at the moment. would potentially backfire on many members

[Apphole]

with gsu and appalachian still allowed to vote on that, utc on the edge, and potentially elon, furman or uncg on the cusp of other conference plans; it just dont see a vote like this winning at the moment. would potentially backfire on many members

Huh?

[ASUMountaineer]

I disagree. The exit fee is to compensate the league for a (hopefully) short-term inconvenience. Membership issues are very much a long-term proposition. If Appalachian State isn't going to be in the league much longer anyway, there is no reason for other SoCon schools to consider what Appy would want in terms of future member schools, because Appy won't be in the conference.

That's different from voting on short-term issues like, for example, number of league basketball games, divisional formats, etc.

Do you know how long ASU is going to be in the SoCon? I don't.

[Saint3333]

i dont know saint, maybe it does, i personally have only seen pieces of the bylaws, not the complete list. all I know is that the wording on voting for new members is fairly hazy.

appalachian has announced they are leaving. your president and ad have told the other schools youll be leaving without a timeframe. that is, by legal terms, intention to leave. the entry and exit fee, on the other hand, is clear in that it strictly applies to severing membership and not taking benefit in scheduling, profit sharing, etc.

so, no, it doesnt really work both ways.

App really hasn't been as black and white with this as you make it out to be. We have announced that we will look for FBS opportunities. We have also announced that should an invitation arise we will weigh our options which may lead to a decision to stay in the SoCon. For example a football only WAC invite may come which would lead to a downgrade in all other sports. App would not take this option.

There has been no "announcement", there is an assumption that we will leave within the next couple of years by both parties. Does the bylaws cover assumptions?

App still gets a seat at the table sorry guys.

[ASUMountaineer]

i dont know saint, maybe it does, i personally have only seen pieces of the bylaws, not the complete list. all I know is that the wording on voting for new members is fairly hazy.

appalachian has announced they are leaving. your president and ad have told the other schools youll be leaving without a timeframe. that is, by legal terms, intention to leave. the entry and exit fee, on the other hand, is clear in that it strictly applies to severing membership and not taking benefit in scheduling, profit sharing, etc.

so, no, it doesnt really work both ways.

ASU announced it was leaving? Do you have a link for that? When is ASU leaving? Where will ASU be going?

ASU has announced that the feasibility study suggested a move to FBS to be in ASU's best interest. ASU also announced that it would not leave unless the right offer came along. I hardly think that is an announcement that ASU is leaving.

But, to understand your point with this post. Your contention is that ASU "intends" to leave, thus precluding its ability to vote on membership. However, the exit fee only comes into play when a school announces the departure date. So, based on your premise, ASU could/should have it's membership voting rights stripped perpetually until ASU either abandons any thought of FBS football or actually leaves?

[fc97]

just so saint also understands, there is a large difference between the situations of davidson, uncg and charleston than etsu, vmi or app moving the football program out.

and 6 schools have told the socon about their dissatisfaction with the league and consideration of leaving. uncg was one of those. and utc has constantly talked about their disapproval with the number of western schools in the conference.

[OL FU]

I don't know what the rules say but until ASU says, we have signed the deal with xyz conference and are exiting on this specific date, they should have say in who their new conference mates will be. The intention to move to FBS doesn't mean that they are leaving in a couple of years. They could, but they could also be in the conference for a long time.

[Sandlapper Spike]

I don't know what the rules say but until ASU says, we have signed the deal with xyz conference and are exiting on this specific date, they should have say in who their new conference mates will be. The intention to move to FBS doesn't mean that they are leaving in a couple of years. They could, but they could also be in the conference for a long time.

They may have a vote, but if they are leaving, why should other schools take Appy's wishes into consideration when it comes to new membership?

Let's say the SoCon decides to expand and add two new schools. It's possible, if not likely, that Furman (I'm just using FU as an example) and Appalachian State may have very different opinions on which schools would be the best expansion targets. If Appalachian State were a lock to remain in the SoCon for an extended period of time, then maybe Furman would consider a compromise, one school that fits its ideal parameters and one that would best suit Appy.

However, if Appy is not going to be in the league for the long term, why should Furman even consider Appy's position on expansion?

[GlassOnion]

If App State doesnt get its full membership benefits, maybe they shouldnt be paying the full dues, then the Socon can become even more Mickey Mouse.

[OL FU]

They may have a vote, but if they are leaving, why should other schools take Appy's wishes into consideration when it comes to new membership?

Let's say the SoCon decides to expand and add two new schools. It's possible, if not likely, that Furman (I'm just using FU as an example) and Appalachian State may have very different opinions on which schools would be the best expansion targets. If Appalachian State were a lock to remain in the SoCon for an extended period of time, then maybe Furman would consider a compromise, one school that fits its ideal parameters and one that would best suit Appy.

However, if Appy is not going to be in the league for the long term, why should Furman even consider Appy's position on expansion?

It wouldn't surprise me one bit if Furman and ASU have differing opinions on who would be a good candidate, it's just my opinion that until the leaving is a settled issue, conference members should participate equally.

[GlassOnion]

just so saint also understands, there is a large difference between the situations of davidson, uncg and charleston than etsu, vmi or app moving the football program out.

and 6 schools have told the socon about their dissatisfaction with the league and consideration of leaving. uncg was one of those. and utc has constantly talked about their disapproval with the number of western schools in the conference.

I know fc97 cant support this with any source, but if 6 schools (SIX!) are unhappy with the Socon, maybe its time for the Socon to dissolve. Imarino must be on his way out if that many schools are unhappy.

[CID1990]

I didn't mean for everyone to get their pantyhose in a bind over this. I merely stated that I read somewhere that there was a rule. It would make the most sense that if ASU had concrete plans to leave and had served notice to that effect, then at that point it would make sense that they not be involved in membership issues.

As it stands, I agree that ASU should still have a place at the table, and for the "sorry, we still get the vote" crowd, I don't think many of us really consider it a point of contention. Both FU and Spike have valid points. Don't take this as ASU bashing.

[MarkCCU]

just so saint also understands, there is a large difference between the situations of davidson, uncg and charleston than etsu, vmi or app moving the football program out.

and 6 schools have told the socon about their dissatisfaction with the league and consideration of leaving. uncg was one of those. and utc has constantly talked about their disapproval with the number of western schools in the conference.

I know fc97 cant support this with any source, but if 6 schools (SIX!) are unhappy with the Socon, maybe its time for the Socon to dissolve. Marino must be on his way out if that many schools are unhappy.

If 6 schools were truly that unhappy, wouldn't some infighting have spilled out already? Or did I miss it?

[Apphole]

then the Socon can become even more Mickey Mouse.

Not possible.

[GlassOnion]

[QUOTE=GlassOnion;1818478]

If 6 schools were truly that unhappy, wouldn't some infighting have spilled out already? Or did I miss it?

Must have missed it. 50% of the schools are dissatisfied, yet leadership (Imarino) remains un-ousted. Truly Mickey Mouse.

[Saint3333]

just so saint also understands, there is a large difference between the situations of davidson, uncg and charleston than etsu, vmi or app moving the football program out.

and 6 schools have told the socon about their dissatisfaction with the league and consideration of leaving. uncg was one of those. and utc has constantly talked about their disapproval with the number of western schools in the conference.

Please explain why DC playing FCS football outside of the SoCon is different than VMI and ETSU, I'd love to hear this as would the ETSU and VMI fans.

Thanks to OL FU for his recent post.

[fc97]

Please explain why DC playing FCS football outside of the SoCon is different than VMI and ETSU, I'd love to hear this as would the ETSU and VMI fans.

Thanks to OL FU for his recent post.

davidson, uncg and charleston were admitted to the conference, while a full conference of football schools existed. they were admitted, granting a waiver, for not offering football.

vmi and etsu were admitted to the conference without a waiver for football. in dropping football, vmi and etsu failed to meet the requirements of their membership (unlike uncg, davidson and charleston who meet the requirements of their membership). the conference put the issue to a vote of members schools (the presidents) where a 3/4 majority is required to allow a waiver. vmi never put it to a vote and just left. etsu put it to a vote and lacked the 3/4 needed.

etsu and vmi fans may like an explanation; they schools fully understand the reason.

so, to sum this up for you, vmi and etsu failed to meet their membership requirements and the members failed to keep them voted in.

you can word this however you want to. at the end of the day, there are requirements on membership. if the membership requirements are not met, the member schools have to vote to allow modified membership.

[OL FU]

Davidson had a basketball program we wanted back in the conference. While ETSU was ok in Bball they didn't compare to Davidson and VMI didn't compare to anybody:o

[Saint3333]

Davidson had a basketball program we wanted back in the conference. While ETSU was ok in Bball they didn't compare to Davidson and VMI didn't compare to anybody:o

This is the truth and really what is comes down to. Certain members are held to different standards and because they aren't as good in basketball as others that don't have a similar sport they are expendable.

[PaladinFan]

This is the truth and really what is comes down to. Certain members are held to different standards and because they aren't as good in basketball as others that don't have a similar sport they are expendable.

Money talks. Davidson basketball is probably the single most recognizable sports program in the SoCon.

[PaladinFan]

Davidson had a basketball program we wanted back in the conference. While ETSU was ok in Bball they didn't compare to Davidson and VMI didn't compare to anybody:o

ETSU used to have that Smith kid at point guard. Guy was like a combination of the Harlem Globetrotters and And-1 mixed tape in one.

[Apphole]

My question is: Why does ETSU, a public school in land-locked Tennessee, have the Buccaneers as their mascot? Was there a lot of piracy on them there rivers?

[walliver]

This is the truth and really what is comes down to. Certain members are held to different standards and because they aren't as good in basketball as others that don't have a similar sport they are expendable.

The way I remember it at the time was that when VMI downgraded their football team, ETSU was opposed to letting VMI stay. Therefore, when ETSU dropped football several years later, there wasn't a lot of sympathy for ETSU.

[walliver]

My question is: Why does ETSU, a public school in land-locked Tennessee, have the Buccaneers as their mascot? Was there a lot of piracy on them there rivers?

They were driven inland by the Tulsa Golden Hurricane.

Obviously a hurricane strong enough to reach Tulsa OK could carry pirates to Tennessee.

[OL FU]

The way I remember it at the time was that when VMI downgraded their football team, ETSU was opposed to letting VMI stay. Therefore, when ETSU dropped football several years later, there wasn't a lot of sympathy for ETSU.

Yep you are dead on right. ETSU did themselves in.

[Saint3333]

Money talks. Davidson basketball is probably the single most recognizable sports program in the SoCon.

It would be be interesting poll between App football and DC basketball.

[fc97]

It would be be interesting poll between App football and DC basketball.

i dont think it would be. as much as i like the michigan win, so many more people watch march madness and do tournament pools that dont normally watch sports

[Saint3333]

Butler, George Mason, Gonzaga have all done what DC did or more. I disagree as it would be close.

[fc97]

etsu also let the rumor spread and faxed every conference member about it rather than letting everyone know appropriately

no, members are not held to different standards, members are held to the standards that they are contracted on. i really dont get why this is so hard for you to understand

[fc97]

sure, and there are a lot of schools with a name based on runs that will be larger than certain fcs over fbs wins, just for the fact that march madness is popular.

winthrop, valpo, davidson, mason, vcu, richmond, butler, there is a list of schools like that. the question wasnt whether they did it too or whether it was better for them, it was whether davidson had more impact or app.

[Saint3333]

I understand the question, I believe that what App did had a bigger impact as it had never been done before, runs like that happen every few years in March Madness.

[PaladinFan]

It would be be interesting poll between App football and DC basketball.

I don't think it is even close.

[OL FU]

It would be be interesting poll between App football and DC basketball.

That's a good question. Difference would probably be that ASU has been the best in football for the last 7 years. Davidson hasbeen the best in basketball (there have been some down periods) off and on since the 60'sxbawlingx

There have been some exception periods. Furman in the 70s. Marshall and Chatt in the 80s.

[fc97]

I understand the question, I believe that what App did had a bigger impact as it had never been done before, runs like that happen every few years in March Madness.

what appalachian did was absolutely a bigger miracle. but that doesnt mean it has more notice than march madness runs or yearly march madness participants.

youre talking about what has bigger recognition, its march madness runs. too many non-sports people keep up with march madness. most of the general public cant say anything about early football season.

[asucrutch23]

It would be be interesting poll between App football and DC basketball.

FWIW, The closest thing I could think of to a name recognition poll that actually exists is the results from a Sporcle quiz asking people to name the teams of the Southern Conference. Here are the results:

http://www.sporcle.com/games/D-I_results/Southern

ASU is the 3rd most named after Davidson and Charleston. Granted this quiz is under the sub-heading "NCAA Division-1 Basketball."

[chattownmocs]

That's a good question. Difference would probably be that ASU has been the best in football for the last 7 years. Davidson hasbeen the best in basketball (there have been some down periods) off and on since the 60'sxbawlingx

There have been some exception periods. Furman in the 70s. Marshall and Chatt in the 80s.

Since Chattanooga joined the Southern conference they have won 10 tournament titles to 7 for Davidson. Chattanooga has won 14 regualr season titles to Davidson's 6 in that time period. Please stop.

[Apphole]

Since Chattanooga joined the Southern conference they have won 10 tournament titles to 7 for Davidson. Chattanooga has won 14 regualr season titles to Davidson's 6 in that time period. Please stop.

How many elite 8's for Chatty?

[chattownmocs]

How many elite 8's for Chatty?

Chattanooga was the original Cinderella from the SOCON. Davidson advancing 1 round further 1 time means nothing. Chattanooga has clearly been the best basketball program over that time period.

[cbarrier90]

Chattanooga was the original Cinderella from the SOCON. Davidson advancing 1 round further 1 time means nothing. Chattanooga has clearly been the best basketball program over that time period.

That wasn't the question, though. It was "most recognizable" program, and Davidson has clearly had more known success recently than Chattanooga because of the Elite 8 run and Steph Curry.

[chattownmocs]

That wasn't the question, though. It was "most recognizable" program, and Davidson has clearly had more known success recently than Chattanooga because of the Elite 8 run and Steph Curry.

I didn't respond to that question. I responded to a post saying that Davidson has been the best basketball program since the 60s.

[Apphole]

I didn't respond to that question. I responded to a post saying that Davidson has been the best basketball program since the 60s.

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/11/9/98205960-43cf-4318-a521-f571e012b0ae.jpg

[OL FU]

Since Chattanooga joined the Southern conference they have won 10 tournament titles to 7 for Davidson. Chattanooga has won 14 regualr season titles to Davidson's 6 in that time period. Please stop.

OK, won't argue that. But my memory extends before Chattanooga joined the conference and the conference is certainly older than Chattanooga's membershp. I realize it doesn't mean much today, but Davidson had some top ten teams in the 60s.

But, I get and agree with your point.

[fc97]

didnt davidson make some final fours in the 60s too

[Skjellyfetti]

didnt davidson make some final fours in the 60s too

Nope.

[fc97]

Nope.

ah yeah, elite 8 two years in a row and sweet 16 before that, all with lefty

[Saint3333]

The 60's, really?

Army used to have a great football program.

[OL FU]

The 60's, really?

Army used to have a great football program.

Some of us are old.:p Have some respect youngsterxsmiley_wix

[Saint3333]

Nothing but respect for you OLFU!

[CID1990]

Chattanooga was the original Cinderella from the SOCON. Davidson advancing 1 round further 1 time means nothing. Chattanooga has clearly been the best basketball program over that time period.

Actually I think you are forgetting ETSU.