PSU now an FCS squad for football

[RichH2]

I have no issue with PSU being hit for the pervasive coverup of Sandusky. I do feel a bit sad for current students being punished for events that occurred before they got there. Does not compare with the lives ruined by Sandusky. Truly a sad situation for all. To clarify PSU, loses 10 now and 20 less for the next 4 yrs. Essen.tially same as FCS

[bluehenbillk]

With 15 scholarships a year they're under the same auspices as the Patriot League for the next 4 years....

[BEAR]

If you're a football player and you see the penalties put on PSU and you still want to go there, it's your own choice. If you're a current player and want to leave, they oughta let you. If you're a player going there for the education, then it sucks to have this happen to you and your team, but you'll still get your degree.

[TheRevSFA]

With 15 scholarships a year they're under the same auspices as the Patriot League for the next 4 years....

I think they lose 10-20 a year..not down to 15 total

[walliver]

They will actually have fewer scholarship athletes than FCS, despite 2 more scholarships. FCS scholarships can be split among 85 athletes, FBS scholarships can't be split.

[Apphole]

Bring em to The Rock!

[NoDak 4 Ever]

If you're a football player and you see the penalties put on PSU and you still want to go there, it's your own choice. If you're a current player and want to leave, they oughta let you. If you're a player going there for the education, then it sucks to have this happen to you and your team, but you'll still get your degree.

Included with the sanctions is a free transfer policy.

[Apphole]

Anyway, the "death penalty" of a football program is to essentially turn them into an FCS school. Who still having trouble empathizing with App fans about being ready to move?

[Bogus Megapardus]

If Penn State were in your conference, and you had a say, would you vote to kick them out? I'm not so sure that I wouldn't at minimum ask for Penn State's resignation. I have to wonder what it says about the Big 10 if they decide to keep Penn State in their club - regardless of how they spin it.

[MplsBison]

I have no issue with PSU being hit for the pervasive coverup of Sandusky. I do feel a bit sad for current students being punished for events that occurred before they got there. Does not compare with the lives ruined by Sandusky. Truly a sad situation for all. To clarify PSU, loses 10 now and 20 less for the next 4 yrs. Essen.tially same as FCS

Right.

So they're just like all those other FCS schools that have 65 scholarships, a 106k stadium that will be filled every home game, $100+million revenue a year in football, $1.7 billion endowment and are in the Big Ten.

[MplsBison]

If Penn State were in your conference, and you had a say, would you vote to kick them out? I'm not so sure that I wouldn't at minimum ask for Penn State's resignation. I have to wonder what it says about the Big 10 if they decide to keep Penn State in their club - regardless of how they spin it.

That they're a conference of the best public research centers in the world (plus Northwestern), into which Penn St fits quite well?

[bluehenbillk]

I think they lose 10-20 a year..not down to 15 total

OK, maybe I totally mis-understood then what the PL is doing. Won't they all be up to 60 scholarships by 2016, adding 15 a year starting in 2013?? Well, besides G'Town...

[DFW HOYA]

They will actually have fewer scholarship athletes than FCS, despite 2 more scholarships. FCS scholarships can be split among 85 athletes, FBS scholarships can't be split.

Yes and No. Any schioalrship can be split at the I-A level, but they are considered a counter whether they get $1 or full tuition, so it makes no sense to offer less than full ride.

If, and only if, the NCAA has limited counters to 60, then it's a big deal. More likely, if the NCAA allows 60 grants in aid among 85 athletes, PSU backfills using financial aid.

Teams have competed with less than full scholarships in I-A. The Kansas State teams of the 1970's competed on just 47 scholarships. Of course, they didn't compete very well, but they competed. (And, we're about to find out how a team with no scholarships competes in a Patriot League moving to 60,)

[bluehenbillk]

Yes and No. Any schioalrship can be split at the I-A level, but they are considered a counter whether they get $1 of full tuition, so it makes no sense to offer less than full ride.

If, and only if, the NCAA has limited counters to 60, then it's a big deal. if the NCAA allows 60 grants in aid among 85 athletes, PSU backfills using financial aid.

Teams have competed with less than full scholarships in I-A. The Kansas State teams of the 1970's competed on just 47 scholarships. Of course, they didn't compete very well, but they competed. (And, we're about to find out how a team with no scholarships competes in a Patriot League moving to 60,)

No. There currently are no partial scholarships in 1-A (FBS) football. It's solely a full ride.

[MplsBison]

Yes and No. Any schioalrship can be split at the I-A level, but they are considered a counter whether they get $1 or full tuition, so it makes no sense to offer less than full ride.

If, and only if, the NCAA has limited counters to 60, then it's a big deal. More likely, if the NCAA allows 60 grants in aid among 85 athletes, PSU backfills using financial aid.

Teams have competed with less than full scholarships in I-A. The Kansas State teams of the 1970's competed on just 47 scholarships. Of course, they didn't compete very well, but they competed. (And, we're about to find out how a team with no scholarships competes in a Patriot League moving to 60,)

It makes sense if you're providing less than 85 full scholarship equivalencies to 85 counters.

Obviously then, you could be giving 85 kids some form of a scholarship.

[MplsBison]

No. There currently are no partial scholarships in 1-A (FBS) football. It's solely a full ride.

False.

The scholarship lower limit in I-A is 90% of 85. That many scholarships can still be provided to 85 counters.

[MplsBison]

I-AA: maximum 85 players can receive some form of scholarship. Maximum number of scholarship equivalencies is 63, no minimum.

I-A: maximum 85 players can receive some form of scholarship. Maximum number of scholarship equivalencies is 85, minimum is 90% of 85 (76.5).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I-AA: maximum 85 players can receive some form of scholarship. Maximum number of scholarship equivalencies is 63, no minimum.

I-A: maximum 85 players can receive some form of scholarship. Maximum number of scholarship equivalencies is 85, minimum is 90% of 85 (76.5).

What a surprise: this is 100% incorrect.

FBS is a headcount sport, which means players on scholarship either get full rides, or are "walk-ons" which receive no football-related aid. In order to be FBS, you have to at least provide 90% of 85 headcount scholarships (so, a min of 78) that cannot be split amongst 100+ football players. So bluehenbillk is right: there is no such thing as "partial" FBS scholarships, only full rides or walk-ons.

[AppMan]

I hate to toss cold water on the feeding frenzy, but this is just a joke on the part of the NCAA. How can the NCAA justify their actions when the school violated NONE of their rules? There were no cars or sums of cash being given out by PSU coaches or boosters, no secret recruiting perks, no manipulating grades or free trips home to visit a sick relative. What happened up there, no matter how tragic, has NOTHING to do with the NCAA and their authority. The simple truth is this action has EVERYTHING to do with the NCAA protecting their own reputation and very little to do with punishing Penn State. This is a legal matter that should ONLY be tried in the US Court system, NOT the court of public opinion. If I were Penn State I would sue that crowd for everything they've got. Before you begin bashing away please understand it is my hope everyone who is found to have done something wrong gets the MAXIMUM punishment under the law. Nothing is too harsh for someone who would molest children and and cover it up. However, that punishment should come from the laws outlined in the US Constitution, NOT the NCAA.

[DFW HOYA]

FBS is a headcount sport, which means players on scholarship either get full rides, or are "walk-ons" which receive no football-related aid. In order to be FBS, you have to at least provide 90% of 85 headcount scholarships (so, a min of 78) that cannot be split amongst 100+ football players. So bluehenbillk is right: there is no such thing as "partial" FBS scholarships, only full rides or walk-ons.

But in theory (and sometimes in practice), a cash-strapped school can offer less than full ride and it counts just the same.

[bluehenbillk]

But in theory (and sometimes in practice), a cash-strapped school can offer less than full ride and it counts just the same.

In theory I guess that'd be correct, but in today's CFB world it'd also be insane...

[MplsBison]

What a surprise: this is 100% incorrect.

FBS is a headcount sport, which means players on scholarship either get full rides, or are "walk-ons" which receive no football-related aid. In order to be FBS, you have to at least provide 90% of 85 headcount scholarships (so, a min of 78) that cannot be split amongst 100+ football players. So bluehenbillk is right: there is no such thing as "partial" FBS scholarships, only full rides or walk-ons.

False.

It's entirely based on scholarship equivalencies. Each team gets 85 players who are counters and the scholarship equivalencies of aid provided to those 85 must add up to at least 76.5 full scholarships. Now what dollar amount equals a "full scholarship" depends on the costs of the school and it can also be different depending where the player is from.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

False.

It's entirely based on scholarship equivalencies. Each team gets 85 players who are counters and the scholarship equivalencies of aid provided to those 85 must add up to at least 76.5 full scholarships.

In FBS, there is no such thing as scholarship equivalencies.

[MplsBison]

But in theory (and sometimes in practice), a cash-strapped school can offer less than full ride and it counts just the same.

It counts the same in the sense that you can't increase the number of players who receive some form of a scholarship.

A partial scholarship and a full scholarship aren't counted the same.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I hate to toss cold water on the feeding frenzy, but this is just a joke on the part of the NCAA. How can the NCAA justify their actions when the school violated NONE of their rules? There were no cars or sums of cash being given out by PSU coaches or boosters, no secret recruiting perks, no manipulating grades or free trips home to visit a sick relative. What happened up there, no matter how tragic, has NOTHING to do with the NCAA and their authority. The simple truth is this action has EVERYTHING to do with the NCAA protecting their own reputation and very little to do with punishing Penn State. This is a legal matter that should ONLY be tried in the US Court system, NOT the court of public opinion. If I were Penn State I would sue that crowd for everything they've got. Before you begin bashing away please understand it is my hope everyone who is found to have done something wrong gets the MAXIMUM punishment under the law. Nothing is too harsh for someone who would molest children and and cover it up. However, that punishment should come from the laws outlined in the US Constitution, NOT the NCAA.

No one is forcing Penn State to be a member of the NCAA. Penn State is perfectly free to ignore the fines and penalties and to withdraw its NCAA membership. I can't really think of any legal claim that Penn State might have against the NCAA other than a perceived violation of its own rules. There's an exclusive internal appeals procedure for that. Somehow I doubt that Penn State will appeal, though.

If it were up to me, I'd have given Penn State a choice of eliminating football and remaining at Division I in other sports, or keeping football and knocking everything down to Division II. And if I were the Big 10 commissioner, I'd have their walking papers drafted by this afternoon.

[MplsBison]

In FBS, there is no such thing as scholarship equivalencies.

False.

That's NCAA nomenclature for all sports. That's because there really is no such thing as a simple "athletic scholarship".


The athletic director doesn't go up to Johnny and say "here you go son, here's your voucher for 1 athletic scholarship to our school, see ya!". The dollars always come in the form of a conglomeration of gifts to the athletic department, usually organized through booster clubs.

The NCAA doesn't care so long as the dollars can be tracked and counted against the total number for the team.

Johnny might actually be receiving a gift from the endowed "Penn St excellence in athletics fund in honor of Joeseph C. Moneybags". Those dollars count as ___ of a scholarship equivalency.

[Milktruck74]

Should a win over PSU count toward the 6 FBS wins necessary to play in a bowl game? After all, they are essentially a FCS squad.

[Cocky]

PSU got off too easy.

[WeAreNorthDakota]

PSU got off too easy.

This won't be the end of their punishment. Those in charge of the coverup will have their day in court and should be prosecuted to the law's full extent.

[RichH2]

Reread the schollie rules for FBS. As usual Mpls is ranting about tbe way he thinks it is and not concerned with the actual facts. 85 scollies to 85 players. No partials thay can be split as in FCS

[Bogus Megapardus]

The NCAA uses three important terms of art - Head-Count, Equivalency and Counter. Each means something very specific within the meaning of the by-laws.

Read for yourself - go to section 15.5 on page 202:

2011-2012 NCAA Division I Manual (http://www.ncaapublications.com/productdownloads/D112.pdf)

[PAllen]

No one is forcing Penn State to be a member of the NCAA. Penn State is perfectly free to ignore the fines and penalties and to withdraw its NCAA membership. I can't really think of any legal claim that Penn State might have against the NCAA other than a perceived violation of its own rules. There's an exclusive internal appeals procedure for that. Somehow I doubt that Penn State will appeal, though.

If it were up to me, I'd have given Penn State a choice of eliminating football and remaining at Division I in other sports, or keeping football and knocking everything down to Division II. And if I were the Big 10 commissioner, I'd have their walking papers drafted by this afternoon.

Plenty of room for an anti-trust based lawsuit.

[WeAreNorthDakota]

Plenty of room for an anti-trust based lawsuit.

Yeah..... I don't think that'll go so well for Penn State.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

No one is forcing Penn State to be a member of the NCAA. Penn State is perfectly free to ignore the fines and penalties and to withdraw its NCAA membership. I can't really think of any legal claim that Penn State might have against the NCAA other than a perceived violation of its own rules. There's an exclusive internal appeals procedure for that. Somehow I doubt that Penn State will appeal, though.

If it were up to me, I'd have given Penn State a choice of eliminating football and remaining at Division I in other sports, or keeping football and knocking everything down to Division II. And if I were the Big 10 commissioner, I'd have their walking papers drafted by this afternoon.

No appeal. PSU signed off before they were announced.

[Seawolf97]

I understand the present Penn St President already agreed to these penalities before they went public today. So hard to fight something in court you already signed off on with Im sure their lawyers present.

[MplsBison]

Penn St ain't fighting nothing. They should be and are thankful that they're getting out of this mess for so little.

Wealthy donors will swat away the fines and costs of this thing without batting an eye. They'll sign up JUCOs from Florida and wherever else that normally would not get the chance to play Big Ten football and receive Big ten degrees in the meantime.


In 4 years time, we'll be talking about the resurgent Penn St team that fought through the great depression of Nittany Lion football, with all of the top rated PA high school talent signed to full scholarships.

[BluBengal07]

Penn St ain't fighting nothing. They should be and are thankful that they're getting out of this mess for so little.

Wealthy donors will swat away the fines and costs of this thing without batting an eye. They'll sign up JUCOs from Florida and wherever else that normally would not get the chance to play Big Ten football and receive Big ten degrees in the meantime.


In 4 years time, we'll be talking about the resurgent Penn St team that fought through the great depression of Nittany Lion football, with all of the top rated PA high school talent signed to full scholarships.

i can see that. during this time, PSU will just be stacking serious money to shoot out full rides out the butt after the 4 year period. those wealthy donors will still love their Nittany Lions and will do WHATEVER they can to get them back to the "glory days".

[AmsterBison]

If Penn State was made ineligible for postseason in all sports then their penalty would be very similar to the penalty NDSU took for moving from DII to DI (except that they are getting two extra football schollies.)

[frozennorth]

And if I were the Big 10 commissioner, I'd have their walking papers drafted by this afternoon.
lol?

why would the big10 ever do that?

[Pitz]

Should a win over PSU count toward the 6 FBS wins necessary to play in a bowl game? After all, they are essentially a FCS squad.

That's actually a really good question. It shouldn't, but it probably will.

We would see a huge domino effect of scheduling changes if that were the case. It would probably also affect how the Big Ten handles their membership.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Big Ten imposed additional sanctions against Penn State, the conference announced Monday.

They mostly mirror those the NCAA handed down, including a postseason ban for four years and a five-year probation period.

Here’s what new:

Penn State is ineligible for its share of Big Ten bowl revenue and must pay that share, which equates to $13 million over a four-year period.

Sally Mason, Iowa's president, said the conference did not consider kicking Penn State out of the Big Ten.

And a TV ban?

"We thought all things taken together," Big Ten Commissioner Jim Delany said, "that what had been done was sufficient and television and playing of the actual games, along with other privileges of membership should not be impacted."

A Nation of Wusses

- Ed Rendell

[MplsBison]

lol?

why would the big10 ever do that?

He's just trolling.

No one with credibility was ever even talking anything that extreme.

[Seawolf97]

They are still going to be hurting no matter what. It will take them quite awhile to recover Im sure. Maybe they can melt down Jo'Pa's statue and see it for scrap.

[frozennorth]

60 million dollar fine from the ncaa and another 13 million from the big10? that stings.

[Bogus Megapardus]

No one with credibility was ever even talking anything that extreme.

"Big Ten leaders are considering a series of proposals in an 18-page plan prompted by the current situation at Penn State. Among the ideas being thrown around include removing the university from the conference."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1265004-big-ten-football-if-kicking-out-penn-state-is-on-the-table-put-it-to-a-vote

[DFW HOYA]

They are still going to be hurting no matter what. It will take them quite awhile to recover Im sure.


Remember how the ESPN experts were predicting the ruin of USC Football after Pete Carroll and Reggie Bush? Or that Miami could never recover from their indiscretions? How many times has Alabama been on probation? They have been on probation for "major violations" for the last three years.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/15508830

[MplsBison]

60 million dollar fine from the ncaa and another 13 million from the big10? that stings.

1.7 billion endowment.

Alumni have some money. And that 73 million will go going to great causes, I'm sure.

[MplsBison]

"Big Ten leaders are considering a series of proposals in an 18-page plan prompted by the current situation at Penn State. Among the ideas being thrown around include removing the university from the conference."

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1265004-big-ten-football-if-kicking-out-penn-state-is-on-the-table-put-it-to-a-vote

Sally Mason, Iowa's president ----> credibility.

bleacherreport.com -----> not credibility.


Credibility 101, class dismissed.

[MplsBison]

Remember how the ESPN experts were predicting the ruin of USC Football after Pete Carroll and Reggie Bush? Or that Miami could never recover from their indiscretions? How many times has Alabama been on probation? They have been on probation for "major violations" for the last three years.

http://www.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6270202/15508830

Yep.

I know a lot of people WANT them to fail for a couple decades, that's the populist position right now. Reality is that they'll be down, but not at the bottom of the Big Ten for these 4 years with a quick resurgence (possibly the 5th season) to the top. Revenue could be down 10% until they start winning again. That's about it.

[walliver]

If they kick PSU out of the Big10, will the Big10 invite App State ... and set off another round of realignment? :D


In reality, the Big10 will give them a slap on the wrist so they can look like they are doing something.

[MplsBison]

If they kick PSU out of the Big10, will the Big10 invite App State ... and set off another round or realignment?

Not a chance. Rumors are that NDSU was told to be ready to move if the Big 10 gave them the call. xnodx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If they kick PSU out of the Big10, will the Big10 invite App State ... and set off another round of realignment? :D

Post. Of. The. Year. xlolx

[RichH2]

PSU TO THE BIG EAST?

[Apphole]

I saw something to this effect on twitter:

If seeing what's happening to the reputation of Joe Paterno and the Penn State Football program upsets you, you could always just turn your back and pretend it isn't happening...

[Squealofthepig]

You know, lost in all of this is that suddenly we have a lot more victories of FCS over FBS! Oh yeah!

Suddenly, Coastal Carolina, EIU, Youngstown State (x2) and Indiana State have FCS victories! (And Indiana Picks up eleven victories, and Illinois and Michigan State pick up nine wins).

Actually, on a serious note - I know Penn State's wins are vacated, but does that automatically give their, umm, 112 victories from 98 through 2011 to their opponents? (During which they outscored those opponents 3,859 to 1,535)?

[laxVik]

There was a recent rumor that PSU would play this year, not the next, and then move down to FCS. Silly to be sure. BUT if you think about how much money PSU will lose in the next several years it seems hard to maintain a FBS program when you're losing to Iowa State every year by 50 points. I expect fan turnout will diminish significantly after this year. And then next. And so on.

[DFW HOYA]

BUT if you think about how much money PSU will lose in the next several years it seems hard to maintain a FBS program when you're losing to Iowa State every year by 50 points. I expect fan turnout will diminish significantly after this year. And then next. And so on.

Losing money? They will make $22 million a year on the Big Ten Network alone. Put that aside and they're still making $40 million a year in football revenues even without worrying about whether to eat tickets for the Ticket City or the Little Caesars Bowl.

[laxVik]

Losing money? They will make $22 million a year on the Big Ten Network alone. Put that aside and they're still making $40 million a year in football revenues even without worrying about whether to eat tickets for the Ticket City or the Little Caesars Bowl.FB revenues will go down significantly. Not to mention the school has yet to pay the victims, settle suits, etc. We'll see how rosy they look in 2013.

[MplsBison]

FB revenues will go down significantly. Not to mention the school has yet to pay the victims, settle suits, etc. We'll see how rosy they look in 2013.

He means $40 million after the $60 million fine.

No school pulling in over $100 million in revenue for football is ever going to move down to I-AA. Don't waste your time.

[Squealofthepig]

He means $40 million after the $60 million fine.

No school pulling in over $100 million in revenue for football is ever going to move down to I-AA. Don't waste your time.

Gotta agree - it'll be hobbled for a while, but will recover.

Personally, my main issue with the $60m is that it's going to the ncaa as pure blood money instead of being set aside for Sandusky's victims - it's like the NCAA is butting in line for the payout ahead of those actually wronged.

[laxVik]

Gotta agree - it'll be hobbled for a while, but will recover.

Personally, my main issue with the $60m is that it's going to the ncaa as pure blood money instead of being set aside for Sandusky's victims - it's like the NCAA is butting in line for the payout ahead of those actually wronged.Very true. Though it's $73M PSU is losing this year, and then another $39M over 3 years from Big 10 sanctions. Total guess that $30M or so will be payed out to victims. So $103M plus or minus is a big hit.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Gotta agree - it'll be hobbled for a while, but will recover.

Personally, my main issue with the $60m is that it's going to the ncaa as pure blood money instead of being set aside for Sandusky's victims - it's like the NCAA is butting in line for the payout ahead of those actually wronged.

I think the report said that the money is going to be set aside for the victims and for non-Penn State awareness programs.

[frozennorth]

Very true. Though it's $73M PSU is losing this year, and then another $39M over 3 years from Big 10 sanctions. Total guess that $30M or so will be payed out to victims. So $103M plus or minus is a big hit.

it's 60 million over 5 years, plus 13 million over 4 years from the big10 in forfeited postseason revenue. victims will probably be another 100 million

[NoDak 4 Ever]

I think the report said that the money is going to be set aside for the victims and for non-Penn State awareness programs.

The NCAA ordered Penn State to pay the penalty funds into an endowment for "external programs preventing child sexual abuse or assisting victims and may not be used to fund such programs at the university."

As for the victims, there will be hefty civil suits and the University has already said "come and get it" to a certain extent.

[OB55]

PSU got off too easy.

This is the post I was looking for.

[MplsBison]

The university itself didn't rape anyone.

A bad man did. Then some other bad men covered it up. Sue the bad men. Have your day in court.

[AppMan]

No one is forcing Penn State to be a member of the NCAA. Penn State is perfectly free to ignore the fines and penalties and to withdraw its NCAA membership. I can't really think of any legal claim that Penn State might have against the NCAA other than a perceived violation of its own rules. There's an exclusive internal appeals procedure for that. Somehow I doubt that Penn State will appeal, though.

If it were up to me, I'd have given Penn State a choice of eliminating football and remaining at Division I in other sports, or keeping football and knocking everything down to Division II. And if I were the Big 10 commissioner, I'd have their walking papers drafted by this afternoon.

Please show me one NCAA rule Penn State broke. The NCAA has NO jurisdiction in this matter. It is ONLY a face saving attempt on their part. PSU has agreed with the sanctions because they would have been convicted and burned at the stake by the public opinion court. The guy commiting these heinous crimes will be in jail for the rest of his life, the head coach is dead, all the assistant coaches involved in the cover up will never set foot in a locker room again and the administrative people involved were been fired in disgrace. Just like a war started by politicians the only people who will pay the real price are the young men who didn't have thing to do with it.

[CID1990]

I think we'd allow them to come play us in Johnson Hagood, but they need to understand that we can't pay them more than we do Jacksonville or Chowan.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Please show me one NCAA rule Penn State broke. The NCAA has NO jurisdiction in this matter. It is ONLY a face saving attempt on their part. PSU has agreed with the sanctions because they would have been convicted and burned at the stake by the public opinion court. The guy commiting these heinous crimes will be in jail for the rest of his life, the head coach is dead, all the assistant coaches involved in the cover up will never set foot in a locker room again and the administrative people involved were been fired in disgrace. Just like a war started by politicians the only people who will pay the real price are the young men who didn't have thing to do with it.

I said this on another thread. I'm pretty sure the NCAA wasn't thinking "don't use your football apparatus to commit and cover up child rape" when they wrote their bylaws. You should forgive them for having to think on the fly here.

[DFW HOYA]

Where was the NCAA investigation process? There was none.

What were the NCAA violations in play? There were none.

Where was the University's hearing to answer the initial findings? There was none.

Where is the right to appeal? Oh, Emmert had them sign that away, too.

Justice...or merely administrative vengeance?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8192722/case-penn-state-everything-unprecedented-start-finish-ncaa-strong-sanctions

[jmufan]

A better penalty would have been the death penalty plus what they gotten. But that is just me.

[frozennorth]

A better penalty would have been the death penalty plus what they gotten. But that is just me.

how about long prison terms for the actual guilty parties?

[HailSzczur]

All I can say is would the Paterno family please shut the hell up.

[asumike83]

The NCAA sanctions were unprecedented but the transgressions were unprecedented as well. The legal aspect is completely separate. The NCAA is not accusing anyone of a crime, they are punishing Penn State for the egregious abuse of power and lack of oversight that allowed this to happen.

The fact is, the football program became so powerful that everyone from a janitor to an assistant coach were afraid to blow the whistle on a child molester out of fear for their jobs even after eye witness accounts. That cannot be allowed to happen. The board of trustees knew that Paterno and the football program had too much power. The report details accounts of them acknowledging this and still taking no action.

The argument about a lack of due process holds no water for me. Sandusky has been convicted in a court of law. Several of the crimes he was convicted of occurred in the Penn State football facility and in two cases, in plain sight of other Penn State employees. Still, no action was taken against him until a decade later. The school commissioned Louis Freeh to do an investigation, which was much more thorough than anything the NCAA could have done, and signed off on the results which showed a cover-up at the highest level of Penn State leadership. The university itself should not escape punishment just because there is no NCAA rule that specifically prohibits enabling and concealing a pedophile due to his stature in the football program. In my opinion, this is as blatant an example of a lack of institutional control as you will ever see and the sanctions were appropriate.

[sgt smash]

All I can say is would the Paterno family please shut the hell up.

Why, since Penn State and and the NCAA arent pulling any punches, why should the Paterno family. Alot of people never hear about suspected child abusers who are wrongly accused and how the witchunt that follows ruins thier life. Paterno informed his superiors and left it up to them. The biggest problem besides child molesters themselves is the people that do not use due process in convicting them in the court of oublic opinion before justice is rightfully served. I think all child predators who are convicted should spend the rest of thier lives in a sheep costume in Montana myself but the Paterno family has every right to defend thier family member who is having a great reputation tarnished.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why, since Penn State and and the NCAA arent pulling any punches, why should the Paterno family. Alot of people never hear about suspected child abusers who are wrongly accused and how the witchunt that follows ruins thier life. Paterno informed his superiors and left it up to them.

I think it's pretty clear that Paterno's, and Spanier's, and Curley's, interests and actions are not those of men who are pausing in an effort to protect someone who is wrongly accused. Furthermore, I happen to think that a through investigation of the Second Mile might tie back to the Freeh report and get even uglier for Paterno.

[Squealofthepig]

Furthermore, I happen to think that a through investigation of the Second Mile might tie back to the Freeh report and get even uglier for Paterno.

I'm still wondering if we'll ever hear about what really happened to Ray Gricar (had to look his name up, the DA who mysteriously disappeared in '05). Or maybe he's just hanging out with Judge Carter.

[clenz]

You know, lost in all of this is that suddenly we have a lot more victories of FCS over FBS! Oh yeah!

Suddenly, Coastal Carolina, EIU, Youngstown State (x2) and Indiana State have FCS victories! (And Indiana Picks up eleven victories, and Illinois and Michigan State pick up nine wins).

Actually, on a serious note - I know Penn State's wins are vacated, but does that automatically give their, umm, 112 victories from 98 through 2011 to their opponents? (During which they outscored those opponents 3,859 to 1,535)?
No....vacating wins does just that...vacates them.

The teams who lost them will have the loss taken from their record (I believe) as that game "never happened"

[Hammerhead]

Given Minnesota's trouble with N.D. State and South Dakota, Penn State should have at least one win in 2013 and 2014.

[JimLU]

I hate to toss cold water on the feeding frenzy, but this is just a joke on the part of the NCAA. How can the NCAA justify their actions when the school violated NONE of their rules? There were no cars or sums of cash being given out by PSU coaches or boosters, no secret recruiting perks, no manipulating grades or free trips home to visit a sick relative. What happened up there, no matter how tragic, has NOTHING to do with the NCAA and their authority. The simple truth is this action has EVERYTHING to do with the NCAA protecting their own reputation and very little to do with punishing Penn State. This is a legal matter that should ONLY be tried in the US Court system, NOT the court of public opinion. If I were Penn State I would sue that crowd for everything they've got. Before you begin bashing away please understand it is my hope everyone who is found to have done something wrong gets the MAXIMUM punishment under the law. Nothing is too harsh for someone who would molest children and and cover it up. However, that punishment should come from the laws outlined in the US Constitution, NOT the NCAA.
As a Lehigh graduate I'm certainly not a Penn State fan, but I couldn't agree more. The NCAA has no standing in this matter as the horrible actions and inactions of Spanier etal are unrelated to NCAA rules. The NCAA presidents are bowing to tremendous national political pressure to pile on. PSU and it's entire athletic department will be punished financially and publicly for years as this sordid mess winds through the courts with ESPN and the national media salivating while reporting every ugly detail. The financial payments to appropriate causes could have been implemented without athletic penalties to the current players and coaches who are innocent collateral damage. The athletic penalties benefit no one, including the abused victims.
And as long as I'm on my soap box, would some one please tell the Paterno family to simply be quiet. They sound more embarrassing every time they make a statement. The current PSU president had no choice but to sign off on these sanctions, even though they are beyond unfair to the current coaches and athletes. He knows any complaint by PSU would be perceived as in some way defending the overall situation. This whole thing will drag on long enough without extending the process with an appeal or lawsuit against the NCAA, both of which are warranted, but unlikely to succeed.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Some will agree with the scope and severity of the NCAA sanctions and others won't. But the NCAA sets its own rules and it can apply, or even change, those rules as it sees fit. It's a private organization. Constitutional "fairness" and government-enforced laws regarding criminal or civil liability have nothing to do with it. If the NCAA says that Penn State violated NCAA rules, then it violated NCAA rules. Nothing says that Penn State is required to be a member of the NCAA. Its membership is purely voluntary.

I'm a member of the AGS community. If AGS wants to kick me out because I continue to tease Georgetown about last year's television fiasco or because I'm a jackwipe when it comes to all things regarding MplsBison, it may do so at any time. AGS is a private, voluntary organization and my membership is beholden entirely to the decisions of those that run the website. AGS could sanction me by banning me or by requiring that I not post in certain fora. That's up to AGS. It matters not whether I've broken any laws or violated someone's Constitutional rights.

The same is precisely true when it comes to Penn State's relationship with the NCAA. One could argue that Penn State has "no choice" but to belong to the NCAA in order to participate in collegiate athletics and thereby create some sort of antitrust case, I suppose. By the same token I could argue that I have "no choice" but to belong to AGS in order to post irreverent Lehigh photo mash-ups in an effective manner. The argument fails because there's no compulsion or external mandate requiring Penn State's participation.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Penn State is a member of the NCAA and of the Big 10. Both have imposed sanctions on the institution. Penn State also is a member of the BCS.

Question - where are the BCS sanctions?

Let me just hazard a wild guess here - the BCS doesn't "feel that additional sanctions against Penn State would be helpful." Or perhaps, "the BCS has no mechanism in place to levy a penalties against a member institution." Or try this spin - "the BCS commissioners do not wish to interfere with law enforcement investigations and will respect the civil and criminal processes."

These aren't actual quotes, of course - just speculation about how the BCS might choose to react.

[grayghost06]

I think it's pretty clear that Paterno's, and Spanier's, and Curley's, interests and actions are not those of men who are pausing in an effort to protect someone who is wrongly accused. Furthermore, I happen to think that a through investigation of the Second Mile might tie back to the Freeh report and get even uglier for Paterno.

I agree but with a slight tangent, and I think a lot of people will be surprised how far reaching the tenticles might go. It is possible that all this coverup was orchestrated by those with even more power, ego and ambitions than university officials.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The financial payments to appropriate causes could have been implemented without athletic penalties to the current players and coaches who are innocent collateral damage. The athletic penalties benefit no one, including the abused victims.

This is my big problem with the folks that think that the NCAA overstepped its bounds. How, exactly, would this have been done? With a contrite Penn State making a sheepish promise in a press conference that it would voluntarily make such a contribution with no oversight from anybody, while still, in effect letting "business as usual" happen at Penn State? Would a court, somehow, compel Penn State - which is supposedly, lest we forget, a tax-free, non-profit organization - to pay money to some charity of the court's choice that they saw fit? And even if that were the case, how is that different from the NCAA's fine?

The sad truth is that there is no way you can have the current PSU administration avoid penalties because it "hurts the kids", coaches and other innocent people. Doing nothing would send an even worse message: that it's perfectly OK to circumvent oversight in order to cover up crimes, even felonies.

Also being missed here is that NCAA violations and criminal penalties are not mutually exclusive. It's a false choice to assume, as a surprising number of national columnists have done (whom I used to respect), that it's EITHER NCAA sactions OR criminal violations in which payments to the families of the victims might take place. The NCAA's mandate is intercollegiate competition; that's what it ruled on. Should it be criticized since it didn't stop global warming?

[Cocky]

Could Sandusky have not acted alone? I still do not understand how you justify covering his acts up.

[MplsBison]

Penn State is a member of the NCAA and of the Big 10. Both have imposed sanctions on the institution. Penn State also is a member of the BCS.

Question - where are the BCS sanctions?

Let me just hazard a wild guess here - the BCS doesn't "feel that additional sanctions against Penn State would be helpful." Or perhaps, "the BCS has no mechanism in place to levy a penalties against a member institution." Or try this spin - "the BCS commissioners do not wish to interfere with law enforcement investigations and will respect the civil and criminal processes."

These aren't actual quotes, of course - just speculation about how the BCS might choose to react.

Penn St is not a member of the BCS. Neither is the Big Ten.

The members of the BCS are the Rose bowl, the Fiesta bowl, the Sugar bowl and the Orange bowl.


No point in the Rose bowl coming out publicly saying that Penn St can't participate -- they're not eligible for the post season, per the NCAA sanctions.


The BCS is dead anyway, starting in the 2014 season. Long live the I-A playoff!

[ASUMountaineer]

Where was the NCAA investigation process? There was none.

What were the NCAA violations in play? There were none.

Where was the University's hearing to answer the initial findings? There was none.

Where is the right to appeal? Oh, Emmert had them sign that away, too.

Justice...or merely administrative vengeance?

http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/8192722/case-penn-state-everything-unprecedented-start-finish-ncaa-strong-sanctions

Unprecedented actions cause unprecedented consequences.

[ASUMountaineer]

Some will agree with the scope and severity of the NCAA sanctions and others won't. But the NCAA sets its own rules and it can apply, or even change, those rules as it sees fit. It's a private organization. Constitutional "fairness" and government-enforced laws regarding criminal or civil liability have nothing to do with it. If the NCAA says that Penn State violated NCAA rules, then it violated NCAA rules. Nothing says that Penn State is required to be a member of the NCAA. Its membership is purely voluntary.

I'm a member of the AGS community. If AGS wants to kick me out because I continue to tease Georgetown about last year's television fiasco or because I'm a jackwipe when it comes to all things regarding MplsBison, it may do so at any time. AGS is a private, voluntary organization and my membership is beholden entirely to the decisions of those that run the website. AGS could sanction me by banning me or by requiring that I not post in certain fora. That's up to AGS. It matters not whether I've broken any laws or violated someone's Constitutional rights.

The same is precisely true when it comes to Penn State's relationship with the NCAA. One could argue that Penn State has "no choice" but to belong to the NCAA in order to participate in collegiate athletics and thereby create some sort of antitrust case, I suppose. By the same token I could argue that I have "no choice" but to belong to AGS in order to post irreverent Lehigh photo mash-ups in an effective manner. The argument fails because there's no compulsion or external mandate requiring Penn State's participation.

Excellent post BM.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I decided to weigh in with my own feelings on the matter:

http://networkedblogs.com/AeIjr

While I'm not always a fan of the NCAA, I think they needed to act in this way here, and it gives a golden opportunity going forward to make college football better.