Where Villanova wanted to play FB

[bluehenbillk]

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/sportsweek/20120610_Why_can_t_Chester_and_soccer_get_along_.h tml?viewAll=y

At one point in time Villanova had FBS aspirations. Only problem was they had nowhere to play.

You've probably heard the Philly area posters on here wax poetic on the urban blight of Chester, PA. Here's one of many recent local stories on how a relationship between a city & a stadium is quickly souring...

[DFW HOYA]

I always hoped Villanova could have swung a deal with Franklin Field, but the Big East required that VU had a stadium with priority to move games for TV purposes and the like. For its era, it's a great place to watch a game.

[bluehenbillk]

I always hoped Villanova could have swung a deal with Franklin Field, but the Big East required that VU had a stadium with priority to move games for TV purposes and the like. For its era, it's a great place to watch a game.

Agreed, the bowl of the stadium itself is more than fine & the acoustics there are good as well. The amenities are totally lacking though in terms of concessions, bathrooms & tailgating, but then again - all three of those are already in short supply at Villanova Stadium.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I always hoped Villanova could have swung a deal with Franklin Field, but the Big East required that VU had a stadium with priority to move games for TV purposes and the like. For its era, it's a great place to watch a game.

You could call this, IMO, setting a requirement that realistically would never, ever be reached. It instantly discounts Franklin Field (formerly Temple's home when they were in the Big East) and Citizens Bank Park. The Linc, of course, is now Temple's home.

Oddly, too, once Nova thought of a different solution to get around this requirement via playing home games at the home of the Philadelphia Union, the "anonymous quotes" start turning up about how awful it would be to have a televised game in Chester.

I often wonder these days if the anonymously quoted insider is currently attending the ACC meetings instead if Big East ones.

[GannonFan]

You could call this, IMO, setting a requirement that realistically would never, ever be reached.

Oddly, too, once Nova thought of a different solution to get around this requirement, the "anonymous quotes" start turning up about how awful it would be to have a televised game in Chester.

I often wonder these days if the anonymously quoted insider is currently attending the ACC meetings instead if Big East ones.

Does it really matter? If this article shows anything it does show that even the idea that PPL could be expanded to 30k seating from its current 18k was probably pie in the sky stuff. If the relationship between the city and the Union is as bad as this article makes it out to be, who would be shelling out the almost $100M that would be needed to expand PPL? And then, if expansion isn't possible, you would've had a team playing in a stadium that seats less than 20k. If the Big East and the ACC are being squeezed out of the elite football picture now (and let's face it, the Big East has been squeezed out and the ACC is teetering on the edge) then clearly adding nova and a tiny stadium never would've made a difference at all. Getting the Linc was always going to be the difference between FBS football and FCS for nova, and we all knew the Linc was never an option.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Does it really matter? If this article shows anything it does show that even the idea that PPL could be expanded to 30k seating from its current 18k was probably pie in the sky stuff. If the relationship between the city and the Union is as bad as this article makes it out to be, who would be shelling out the almost $100M that would be needed to expand PPL? And then, if expansion isn't possible, you would've had a team playing in a stadium that seats less than 20k. If the Big East and the ACC are being squeezed out of the elite football picture now (and let's face it, the Big East has been squeezed out and the ACC is teetering on the edge) then clearly adding nova and a tiny stadium never would've made a difference at all. Getting the Linc was always going to be the difference between FBS football and FCS for nova, and we all knew the Linc was never an option.

As a guy who assiduously followed the Union until this year, the year where they shipped out their three most popular players and just recently unloaded one of their few bankable young strikers for a bag of soccer balls, I get the fact that there is plenty to critique with how the Union is run and their stadium deal. But the truth is with the right people running PPL park and the Union there's no reason why Nova couldn't work in that stadium, and the way Nova was treated by the leadership of the Big East and their supposed athletic director peers is downright unbelievable.

Where it matters is not that it didn't happen, but how it didn't happen, and that's not on the backs of Nova or the Union.

[Sader87]

Patriot League (for football), here comes Villanova...it's a fait accompli imo.

[HailSzczur]

Does it really matter? If this article shows anything it does show that even the idea that PPL could be expanded to 30k seating from its current 18k was probably pie in the sky stuff. If the relationship between the city and the Union is as bad as this article makes it out to be, who would be shelling out the almost $100M that would be needed to expand PPL? And then, if expansion isn't possible, you would've had a team playing in a stadium that seats less than 20k. If the Big East and the ACC are being squeezed out of the elite football picture now (and let's face it, the Big East has been squeezed out and the ACC is teetering on the edge) then clearly adding nova and a tiny stadium never would've made a difference at all. Getting the Linc was always going to be the difference between FBS football and FCS for nova, and we all knew the Linc was never an option.

I was at a session this weekend titled "The Future of Villanova Athletics", and according to AD Vince Nicastro, the Linc is back on the table as an option. Now that Temple is in the BE, if they decided they wanted us to join them they could force Temple to comply and coexist with us. But its never going to happen. I like the idea though of having PPL in our back pocket for 1 big game a year, such as the Delaware game, or to possibly land a sweet OOC game to the level of this years ASU Montana game

[HailSzczur]

Patriot League (for football), here comes Villanova...it's a fait accompli imo.

If and only if the CAA was to fall apart as suggested by one of the many doomsday scenarios. Honestly we don't seem to care enough to make a move unless we have to

[HailSzczur]

As a guy who assiduously followed the Union until this year, the year where they shipped out their three most popular players and just recently unloaded one of their few bankable young strikers for a bag of soccer ball

And don't even get me started on the State of the Union LFN. I'm worried that when he manages the All Star team this summer he's going to try and sell those players too.

[Wildcat80]

Too bad Rendell was not Gov of NH.....UNH would have had a new $87 mil stadium!!!

[DFW HOYA]

Oddly, too, once Nova thought of a different solution to get around this requirement via playing home games at the home of the Philadelphia Union, the "anonymous quotes" start turning up about how awful it would be to have a televised game in Chester.
I often wonder these days if the anonymously quoted insider is currently attending the ACC meetings instead if Big East ones.

Cough...Mark Nordenberg?...cough...

[MplsBison]

Too bad Rendell was not Gov of NH.....UNH would have had a new $87 mil stadium!!!

I think the state has to have money for that to work. UNH has like....no taxes...of any kind, right? Actually isn't that the state where a bunch of libertarians tried to move so they could vote people into the state senate?

[Go...gate]

Patriot League (for football), here comes Villanova...it's a fait accompli imo.

Maybe not a fait accompli, but a hell of a lot more possible than anyone could have envisioned.

[MplsBison]

Maybe not a fait accompli, but a hell of a lot more possible than anyone could have envisioned.

AI will be a deal breaker, simply for the fact that the entire roster of whatever year Villanova would enter the conference would consist of players recruited without an AI enforced.

So they're going to join the PL....just to be ineligible for 4-5 years? Not.

[GannonFan]

As a guy who assiduously followed the Union until this year, the year where they shipped out their three most popular players and just recently unloaded one of their few bankable young strikers for a bag of soccer balls, I get the fact that there is plenty to critique with how the Union is run and their stadium deal. But the truth is with the right people running PPL park and the Union there's no reason why Nova couldn't work in that stadium, and the way Nova was treated by the leadership of the Big East and their supposed athletic director peers is downright unbelievable.

Where it matters is not that it didn't happen, but how it didn't happen, and that's not on the backs of Nova or the Union.

The only thing that was done wrong to nova was even approaching them in the first place. nova was going to have to be pretty much carried into BCS level football (not just FBS, BCS) and if the league wasn't really ready to subsidize them into that level then they shouldn't have even started talking about it in the first place. But obviously the Big East was already crumbling by the time they even got into this and the attempt to bring in nova was just a forestalling of the inevitable by Big East leadership that didn't really include the schools that were already starting to look elsewhere. The problems with nova football (no place to play, no money to afford the move, and no fanbase large enough to overcome the first two problems) have been well known and documented and only a league like the Big East funding the whole operation could have a chance to get it done. In the end, the Big East didn't want to take on that burden because the writing on the wall for 4 major football conferences was already becoming clear, and the Big East wasn't going to be one of them. At that point, it didn't make sense for the Big East to be a foster parent for nova football and it didn't happen.

[GannonFan]

I was at a session this weekend titled "The Future of Villanova Athletics", and according to AD Vince Nicastro, the Linc is back on the table as an option. Now that Temple is in the BE, if they decided they wanted us to join them they could force Temple to comply and coexist with us. But its never going to happen. I like the idea though of having PPL in our back pocket for 1 big game a year, such as the Delaware game, or to possibly land a sweet OOC game to the level of this years ASU Montana game

In theory they could use Big East basketball to force Temple to give up a date at the Linc, but keep in mind, it won't mean additional games in total at the Linc - the Eagles control the Linc, not Temple, so Temple would need to give up a home game for nova to have a game at the Linc. Sure it could happen, but it also depends on Temple acquiescing to it. Remember, the Big East needs Temple right now probably more than Temple really needs the Big East - especially if UConn is finally the last domino to fall - Temple just isn't going to give up a home date for nothing.

As for PPL, hey, I'm all in favor of having the UD/nova game there - even though I'm closer to Radnor than I am Chester, I'll gladly make the extra drive to see a game there rather than the on-campus stadium. Just too many things wrong with the on-campus stadium (parking, tailgating, seating, amenities, etc) that have made that an awful place to see a game anymore. PPL is a far better place to see a game. Problem will always remain for nova, though - you can only really play November games there since the Union have the place through October. And games that late in the season mean conference games only as the CAA requires all OOC games to be early in the year. So that's UD every other year and then whatever conference game you can get in the other year. Maybe JMU this year as that's the only option with this schedule. Last year there was 14k announced attendance, and in reality it wasn't any more than 10k there. Without UD there every other year, can the attendance (probably announced 10k and in reality 5k-6k) justify the expense of renting the place? Hey, I hope it does, like I said, I don't want to have to see a game in Radnor at that stadium again.

[Tribe4SF]

Not sure why you're so down on Villanova Stadium these days. Tailgate parking is right across the street, and the sight lines are good. Even the concessions are ok. Not an attractive place, but not so bad.

[bluehenbillk]

Not sure why you're so down on Villanova Stadium these days. Tailgate parking is right across the street, and the sight lines are good. Even the concessions are ok. Not an attractive place, but not so bad.

Tailgating is extremely limited there. For the W&M game where very few fans travel it should be no problem, but not so for the UD game there. Sightlines are fine if you're up high, stadiums with tracks around them are never a favorite. Concessions? Plan on waiting in line for a quarter of the game if you want any. Again, for the W&M game it may be OK, but when the place is packed they're just not built for that.

[MplsBison]

The only thing that was done wrong to nova was even approaching them in the first place. nova was going to have to be pretty much carried into BCS level football (not just FBS, BCS) and if the league wasn't really ready to subsidize them into that level then they shouldn't have even started talking about it in the first place. But obviously the Big East was already crumbling by the time they even got into this and the attempt to bring in nova was just a forestalling of the inevitable by Big East leadership that didn't really include the schools that were already starting to look elsewhere. The problems with nova football (no place to play, no money to afford the move, and no fanbase large enough to overcome the first two problems) have been well known and documented and only a league like the Big East funding the whole operation could have a chance to get it done. In the end, the Big East didn't want to take on that burden because the writing on the wall for 4 major football conferences was already becoming clear, and the Big East wasn't going to be one of them. At that point, it didn't make sense for the Big East to be a foster parent for nova football and it didn't happen.

You wouldn't have been able to convince me of this even just a couple weeks ago, but I'm pretty sure that the four 16-team super conferences concept is DOA. The ACC and the Big East football conferences will survive in some form and still be more viable than the CUSA, MWC, etc. And their champions will at least have the chance, in theory, to make it to the FBS championship.

Sounds like the only thing that's basically certain is that four teams will be vying for the 2014 FBS championship in a playoff of some kind. What we don't know is if they will just be the four top ranked teams, four conference champions or a mix of some kind. Also don't know for sure where the semi final games will be played, although seems clear that the championship should be bid out. But what does seem like it's becoming an increasing likely scenario is that at least one team (if not all four) will be picked from a ranking and the ranking will be determined by a committee, rather than a formula of some kind.

So, in essence, you could very well be looking at the end of the "bowl coalition/bowl alliance/bowl championship series" concept! You'd just have FBS conferences playing regular season games and then likely a committee will select four teams from those conferences to a playoff. HMMM....where do we have this concept?!

I guess that means you all have to stop hating the FBS now.


That said, I think it's perfectly possible that if the Big East football conf champion went undefeated, even say if it was UConn, that they could be selected as the 4th seed.

[MplsBison]

In theory they could use Big East basketball to force Temple to give up a date at the Linc, but keep in mind, it won't mean additional games in total at the Linc - the Eagles control the Linc, not Temple, so Temple would need to give up a home game for nova to have a game at the Linc. Sure it could happen, but it also depends on Temple acquiescing to it. Remember, the Big East needs Temple right now probably more than Temple really needs the Big East - especially if UConn is finally the last domino to fall - Temple just isn't going to give up a home date for nothing.

As for PPL, hey, I'm all in favor of having the UD/nova game there - even though I'm closer to Radnor than I am Chester, I'll gladly make the extra drive to see a game there rather than the on-campus stadium. Just too many things wrong with the on-campus stadium (parking, tailgating, seating, amenities, etc) that have made that an awful place to see a game anymore. PPL is a far better place to see a game. Problem will always remain for nova, though - you can only really play November games there since the Union have the place through October. And games that late in the season mean conference games only as the CAA requires all OOC games to be early in the year. So that's UD every other year and then whatever conference game you can get in the other year. Maybe JMU this year as that's the only option with this schedule. Last year there was 14k announced attendance, and in reality it wasn't any more than 10k there. Without UD there every other year, can the attendance (probably announced 10k and in reality 5k-6k) justify the expense of renting the place? Hey, I hope it does, like I said, I don't want to have to see a game in Radnor at that stadium again.

Why do the Eagles care if Temple, Nova or anyone plays every weekend on Saturday? Or Sundays that the Eagles travel?

You get fieldturf installed and it doesn't matter if they play two games every weekend. The field is just fine.


It should be forced upon them, really. Force it on the Steelers too - their field is garbage. Right up Rooney's rear end - stodgy old codger.

[kdinva]

Why do the Eagles care if Temple, Nova or anyone plays every weekend on Saturday? Or Sundays that the Eagles travel?

You get fieldturf installed and it doesn't matter if they play two games every weekend. The field is just fine.


It should be forced upon them, really. Force it on the Steelers too - their field is garbage.

xnodx agree; both Pitt and Philly need to get the FieldTurf, needed badly. Gillette stadium "got it" 5 years ago, upgraded to FieldTurf.

I mean, really........if St. Francis (Pa.) and Jacksonville U. can afford it.............

[MplsBison]

xnodx agree; both Pitt and Philly need to get the FieldTurf, needed badly. Gillette stadium "got it" 5 years ago, upgraded to FieldTurf.

I mean, really........if St. Francis (Pa.) and Jacksonville U. can afford it.............

Has nothing to do with afford. The owners, especially Rooney, are just stodgy old codgers who hate "fake grass".

They'd rather have them play the game in mud with no "new fangled" forward passes possible.

[DFW HOYA]

Why do the Eagles care if Temple, Nova or anyone plays every weekend on Saturday? Or Sundays that the Eagles travel? You get fieldturf installed and it doesn't matter if they play two games every weekend. The field is just fine. It should be forced upon them, really. Force it on the Steelers too - their field is garbage. Right up Rooney's rear end - stodgy old codger.

The Eagles probably included the natural turf (and the restriction on events outside the NFL, like college football) in their lease. After all the problems with artifical turf at the Vet, the Eagles wanted to go in another direction.

[GannonFan]

Tailgating is extremely limited there. For the W&M game where very few fans travel it should be no problem, but not so for the UD game there. Sightlines are fine if you're up high, stadiums with tracks around them are never a favorite. Concessions? Plan on waiting in line for a quarter of the game if you want any. Again, for the W&M game it may be OK, but when the place is packed they're just not built for that.

Agree with BHBK here - I've been to non-UD games at nova and you're right, it isn't awful then because no one's there. But when UD plays there it's at least 10k in the stadium and most of the time it's right at capacity (12k or 13k). When that happens, the place is bursting at the seams. It's basically a high school setup - concessions at either end zone that are right in the walking paths between the two sides, so the lines are long and jam up traffic. Bathrooms, which are tough even when the place is empty, are completely overwhelmed when the place is at least half-filled. The sight lines are okay, but only someone from W&M would say they are good because that someone would be used to the terrible sight lines at Zable (granted, Zable is fabulous in every other facet, just awful in terms of sight lines though). And parking and tailgating, even with them improving it slightly, is still sub-standard. Face it, any time a real crowd is there it just reinforces that it's a good 1940's track stadium that makes for a real poor twenty-first century football stadium.

[MplsBison]

The Eagles probably included the natural turf (and the restriction on events outside the NFL, like college football) in their lease. After all the problems with artifical turf at the Vet, the Eagles wanted to go in another direction.

Old generation astroturf is less like the new turf than it is grass! Nonsense.

The order of magnitude improvement that has been seen at Gillette stadium alone should be all the reason to force every NFL stadium in the mid-atlantic and north into using fieldturf. End.

And then the only reason to keep teams out is to try saving the grass as long as possible, which of course is a complete joke. with fieldturf installed, it's moot.

[GannonFan]

You wouldn't have been able to convince me of this even just a couple weeks ago, but I'm pretty sure that the four 16-team super conferences concept is DOA. The ACC and the Big East football conferences will survive in some form and still be more viable than the CUSA, MWC, etc. And their champions will at least have the chance, in theory, to make it to the FBS championship.

Sounds like the only thing that's basically certain is that four teams will be vying for the 2014 FBS championship in a playoff of some kind. What we don't know is if they will just be the four top ranked teams, four conference champions or a mix of some kind. Also don't know for sure where the semi final games will be played, although seems clear that the championship should be bid out. But what does seem like it's becoming an increasing likely scenario is that at least one team (if not all four) will be picked from a ranking and the ranking will be determined by a committee, rather than a formula of some kind.

So, in essence, you could very well be looking at the end of the "bowl coalition/bowl alliance/bowl championship series" concept! You'd just have FBS conferences playing regular season games and then likely a committee will select four teams from those conferences to a playoff. HMMM....where do we have this concept?!

I guess that means you all have to stop hating the FBS now.


That said, I think it's perfectly possible that if the Big East football conf champion went undefeated, even say if it was UConn, that they could be selected as the 4th seed.

In theory, that's great, but in practice, unless that Big East champ played someone of note in the four power conferences, they're going to be left out of the mix in a 4 team playoff 99% of the time. You can hang your hat on the 1% all you want, but in practice, the Big East has been frozen out. Sure, they'll still be more of a force than the Sun Belt and CUSA, especially because of the basketball clout, but they will be permanently a step below the big 4 conferences and with the SEC getting two teams into the four team playoff probably every year, there are already going to be 3 power conferences fighting for the other two spots, which means the Big East will have a nice bowl tie-in somewhere for an undefeated UConn to play in - maybe against the SEC's 6th or 7th place team. And the SEC will be favored. And will likley win. So yeah, in theory the Big East will still matter in football. In reality, that ship has already sailed.

[GannonFan]

Old generation astroturf is less like the new turf than it is grass! Nonsense.

The order of magnitude improvement that has been seen at Gillette stadium alone should be all the reason to force every NFL stadium in the mid-atlantic and north into using fieldturf. End.

And then the only reason to keep teams out is to try saving the grass as long as possible, which of course is a complete joke. with fieldturf installed, it's moot.

Again, sounds great, but the Eagles own the place and you can't force anything on them. They were forced to let Temple in the building when they built the place because Temple was a city school and the city helped finance the stadium. However, the same negotiation gave the Eagles control and ownership of the stadium and while we can debate forever the wisdom of that the reality is that the Eagles own the place and they can do whatever they want to.

And Philly isn't New England - the field for the Eagles has been more than fine whenever they've played in December and January so there's no reason to make a change for that regard. The Steelers issues are because Pitt uses that field and because the western PA football association has 4 games there in two days during the high school football playoffs. I agree, if you're going to use a field for more than one sport/event, then you need FieldTurf. If you're just going to use the field for one football team in a season, grass works just fine, even in Pittsburgh.

[MplsBison]

Again, sounds great, but the Eagles own the place and you can't force anything on them. They were forced to let Temple in the building when they built the place because Temple was a city school and the city helped finance the stadium. However, the same negotiation gave the Eagles control and ownership of the stadium and while we can debate forever the wisdom of that the reality is that the Eagles own the place and they can do whatever they want to.

And Philly isn't New England - the field for the Eagles has been more than fine whenever they've played in December and January so there's no reason to make a change for that regard. The Steelers issues are because Pitt uses that field and because the western PA football association has 4 games there in two days during the high school football playoffs. I agree, if you're going to use a field for more than one sport/event, then you need FieldTurf. If you're just going to use the field for one football team in a season, grass works just fine, even in Pittsburgh.

"Works fine" isn't good enough for the NFL.

The worlds best professional sports league needs the worlds best surface. Grass is a lower level of performance.


And it means the Linc goes to waste by preventing more games from being played in such a fine facility. So what did the taxpayers get for their money? 16 events a year?

[MplsBison]

In theory, that's great, but in practice, unless that Big East champ played someone of note in the four power conferences, they're going to be left out of the mix in a 4 team playoff 99% of the time. You can hang your hat on the 1% all you want, but in practice, the Big East has been frozen out. Sure, they'll still be more of a force than the Sun Belt and CUSA, especially because of the basketball clout, but they will be permanently a step below the big 4 conferences and with the SEC getting two teams into the four team playoff probably every year, there are already going to be 3 power conferences fighting for the other two spots, which means the Big East will have a nice bowl tie-in somewhere for an undefeated UConn to play in - maybe against the SEC's 6th or 7th place team. And the SEC will be favored. And will likley win. So yeah, in theory the Big East will still matter in football. In reality, that ship has already sailed.

In reality you're correct.

But that's better than a 0% chance that four superconferences would've dictated.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

"Works fine" isn't good enough for the NFL.

The worlds best professional sports league needs the worlds best surface. Grass is a lower level of performance.


And it means the Linc goes to waste by preventing more games from being played in such a fine facility. So what did the taxpayers get for their money? 16 events a year?

Sorry dude, the EPL plays on grass.

[MplsBison]

Sorry dude, the EPL plays on grass.

And women's bowling is on wood...

[bluehenbillk]

Sorry dude, the EPL plays on grass.

EPL? F soccer.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

EPL? F soccer.

Sure but in terms of sheer $ and fan appreciation. EPL is bigger than the NFL. He did say "the world"

[GannonFan]

In reality you're correct.

But that's better than a 0% chance that four superconferences would've dictated.

Ask Boise and Utah and TCU how going undefeated and not getting at the national title despite having, in theory, having access to it in the old model worked out for them. A miniscule chance at the title means they ain't getting a shot at it. Too much money involved from the four superconferences to let that happen. They're basically protecting themselves - they say, in theory, that someone else could make it, and then in reality they never let it happen. Same outcome.

[Tribe4SF]

Agree with BHBK here - I've been to non-UD games at nova and you're right, it isn't awful then because no one's there. But when UD plays there it's at least 10k in the stadium and most of the time it's right at capacity (12k or 13k). When that happens, the place is bursting at the seams. It's basically a high school setup - concessions at either end zone that are right in the walking paths between the two sides, so the lines are long and jam up traffic. Bathrooms, which are tough even when the place is empty, are completely overwhelmed when the place is at least half-filled. The sight lines are okay, but only someone from W&M would say they are good because that someone would be used to the terrible sight lines at Zable (granted, Zable is fabulous in every other facet, just awful in terms of sight lines though). And parking and tailgating, even with them improving it slightly, is still sub-standard. Face it, any time a real crowd is there it just reinforces that it's a good 1940's track stadium that makes for a real poor twenty-first century football stadium.

Yeah, I can see all that with a bigger crowd. Even the tailgate lot, which holds about 250 vehicles, could be stretched. We're always there when it opens, and there's usually more of us in the lot than Nova fans, and I've never seen it full. They should just expand the tailgate section for the UD game, although they probably don't have enough cops to maintain their overwhelming presence. Overall still way better than New Hampshire.

[MplsBison]

Ask Boise and Utah and TCU how going undefeated and not getting at the national title despite having, in theory, having access to it in the old model worked out for them. A miniscule chance at the title means they ain't getting a shot at it. Too much money involved from the four super conferences to let that happen. They're basically protecting themselves - they say, in theory, that someone else could make it, and then in reality they never let it happen. Same outcome.

None of those teams went undefeated in the Big East. They had mid-major (to borrow the term from college bball) schedules for most of the year.

So my point is still that if UConn, Rutgers or the like were to go undefeated in the Big East and depending on what happens elsewhere, it's still very realistic that you could see them get picked by the selection committee as the 4th team in. And that's actually an increased chance than if it were to just rely on a formula of polls and computer rankings!

Certainly a greater percentage chance than zero, which would've been the case if there really were for super conferences whose champions were the playoff participants and end of story.


So my other point is that now FBS is going to be just like FCS. A committee will pick teams from a pool of all the conferences for a playoff to determine the champion of the sub-division. All you anti-FBS haters on this board will lose every argument you've clung on to for hating the next level up in college football.

[bluehenbillk]

Yeah, I can see all that with a bigger crowd. Even the tailgate lot, which holds about 250 vehicles, could be stretched. We're always there when it opens, and there's usually more of us in the lot than Nova fans, and I've never seen it full. They should just expand the tailgate section for the UD game, although they probably don't have enough cops to maintain their overwhelming presence. Overall still way better than New Hampshire.

They used to stretch it, but the last two times UD played on the Main Line it was a small cramped area. Very limited.

[henfan]

Yeah, I can see all that with a bigger crowd. Even the tailgate lot, which holds about 250 vehicles, could be stretched. We're always there when it opens, and there's usually more of us in the lot than Nova fans, and I've never seen it full. They should just expand the tailgate section for the UD game, although they probably don't have enough cops to maintain their overwhelming presence. Overall still way better than New Hampshire.

Got to disagree with you there, SF. UNH has done a great job in recent years with promoting tailgating as part of the gameday experience. It used to be pitiful back in the mid-'90's, not anymore.

In recent years, VU seems to have done their very best to discourage tailgating. It's an absolutely miserable gameday environment. Right up there with Northeastern as the worst I've ever seen anywhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So my point is still that if UConn, Rutgers or the like were to go undefeated in the Big East and depending on what happens elsewhere, it's still very realistic that you could see them get picked by the selection committee as the 4th team in. And that's actually an increased chance than if it were to just rely on a formula of polls and computer rankings!

If you mean an increase from "none" to "winning the Powerball odds", then yes.

I don't think it's realistic at all that the Big East champion makes it, even as an 12-0 or 11-1 team. It's the same phoniness as the "fairness" of an undefeated PFL champion not making the FCS playoffs. If they go 12-0, the argument will be "Yeah, but they didn't play anyone." I don't see any Big East configuration where the pollsters-at-large will conclude that the Big East champion will be deemed worthy of inclusion.

[GannonFan]

None of those teams went undefeated in the Big East. They had mid-major (to borrow the term from college bball) schedules for most of the year.

So my point is still that if UConn, Rutgers or the like were to go undefeated in the Big East and depending on what happens elsewhere, it's still very realistic that you could see them get picked by the selection committee as the 4th team in. And that's actually an increased chance than if it were to just rely on a formula of polls and computer rankings!

Certainly a greater percentage chance than zero, which would've been the case if there really were for super conferences whose champions were the playoff participants and end of story.


So my other point is that now FBS is going to be just like FCS. A committee will pick teams from a pool of all the conferences for a playoff to determine the champion of the sub-division. All you anti-FBS haters on this board will lose every argument you've clung on to for hating the next level up in college football.

If the Big East was the way they were before the current breakup, sure, they would have a better chance than the Utah's and Boise's and TCU's of the past few years. But the thing is, the Big East isn't that anymore. UConn going undefeated against a schedule that included West Virginia and Pitt and TCU and Syracuse would've been fine - they would've had a shot at being in the top 4. Now, not really - how is the Big East now any better than the MWC and the CUSA and the WAC that those teams couldn't qualify from before? The answer is the Big East isn't - it's basketball will keep it marginally better than those conferences, but from a football standpoint, they may even be behind some of those conferences now. UConn going undefeated in that setup is going to require a big OOC game to get them into the top 4 - looking at their future schedules (notables include Maryland, Michigan, Tennessee, and Virginia) I'm not seeing a game that will put them over the top.

[GannonFan]

They used to stretch it, but the last two times UD played on the Main Line it was a small cramped area. Very limited.

Indeed - one year was great - they had a complete section of the bigger parking lot set up exclusively for UD tailgating - all the UD fans poured into there and things were great. But they only did it one year and then since then they've contained any tailgating in that one small lot (maybe 200 cars) and tailgating is again banned everywhere else. 200 cars ain't getting it done for a football tailgate.

[DFW HOYA]

By the BCS argument, only 33 teams will ever be considered to be in the discussion for a title. Put another way, Baylor or Duke could go 12-0 and they still wouldn't get a seat at the table.

SEC (10): All exc. Vandy, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Miss St.
Big Ten: (9): All exc. Northwestern, Indiana, Minnesota
Pac-12: (9): All exc. Washington State, Utah, and Stanford
Big 12: (2): Texas, Oklahoma only
ACC: (2): Miami, Florida State only
Big East: (0)
MWC: (0)
C-USA: (0)
MAC: (0)
Sun Belt: (0)
WAC: (0)
Independents (1): Notre Dame

In the I-AA ranks, there's a similar prejudice, too, but that's for another topic.

[GannonFan]

So my other point is that now FBS is going to be just like FCS. A committee will pick teams from a pool of all the conferences for a playoff to determine the champion of the sub-division. All you anti-FBS haters on this board will lose every argument you've clung on to for hating the next level up in college football.

btw, who ever said I hated FBS football? Throwing me into a crowd I don't belong with there. I like all levels of football.

[GannonFan]

By the BCS argument, only 33 teams will ever be considered to be in the discussion for a title. Put another way, Baylor or Duke could go 12-0 and they still wouldn't get a seat at the table.

SEC (10): All exc. Vandy, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Miss St.
Big Ten: (9): All exc. Northwestern, Indiana, Minnesota
Pac-12: (9): All exc. Washington State, Utah, and Stanford
Big 12: (2): Texas, Oklahoma only
ACC: (2): Miami, Florida State only
Big East: (0)
MWC: (0)
C-USA: (0)
MAC: (0)
Sun Belt: (0)
WAC: (0)
Independents (1): Notre Dame

In the I-AA ranks, there's a similar prejudice, too, but that's for another topic.

Huh? I don't see that at all. Any SEC team that goes undefeated is automatically going to be in the top 4, and yes, even Kentucky or Vandy. Same really goes for those other top 4 conferences too.

[Tribe4SF]

Got to disagree with you there, SF. UNH has done a great job in recent years with promoting tailgating as part of the gameday experience. It used to be pitiful back in the mid-'90's, not anymore.

In recent years, VU seems to have done their very best to discourage tailgating. It's an absolutely miserable gameday environment. Right up there with Northeastern as the worst I've ever seen anywhere.

UNH tailgating is fine, as long as it doesn't rain. There's literally no parking available other than the boulder lot, which is hilly, and all grass. I was speaking more of the whole stadium experience there, which is not good at all.

[MplsBison]

If the Big East was the way they were before the current breakup, sure, they would have a better chance than the Utah's and Boise's and TCU's of the past few years. But the thing is, the Big East isn't that anymore. UConn going undefeated against a schedule that included West Virginia and Pitt and TCU and Syracuse would've been fine - they would've had a shot at being in the top 4. Now, not really - how is the Big East now any better than the MWC and the CUSA and the WAC that those teams couldn't qualify from before? The answer is the Big East isn't - it's basketball will keep it marginally better than those conferences, but from a football standpoint, they may even be behind some of those conferences now. UConn going undefeated in that setup is going to require a big OOC game to get them into the top 4 - looking at their future schedules (notables include Maryland, Michigan, Tennessee, and Virginia) I'm not seeing a game that will put them over the top.

No, I say still in football too. You take a look at stadium size, average attendance, budget, football coaching salaries, other football facilities -- all those thing that really make "a program" -- and you look at those things for UConn, Rutgers, Louisville, Boise, South Florida, Cincinnati? The MWC and the CUSA don't really have but maybe one program each that can be discussed at the same level. That's East Carolina in the CUSA and maybe Air Force in the MWC.

[MplsBison]

If you mean an increase from "none" to "winning the Powerball odds", then yes.

I don't think it's realistic at all that the Big East champion makes it, even as an 12-0 or 11-1 team. It's the same phoniness as the "fairness" of an undefeated PFL champion not making the FCS playoffs. If they go 12-0, the argument will be "Yeah, but they didn't play anyone." I don't see any Big East configuration where the pollsters-at-large will conclude that the Big East champion will be deemed worthy of inclusion.

I would agree with you 100% if it were decided on a formula or just polls, like the BCS now.

But a selection committee can take a common sense "listen to the will of the people" approach, as warranted. Let the big dogs have the top 3 bones....but throw a bone to someone else for a change too. See what I mean?

[MplsBison]

By the BCS argument, only 33 teams will ever be considered to be in the discussion for a title. Put another way, Baylor or Duke could go 12-0 and they still wouldn't get a seat at the table.

SEC (10): All exc. Vandy, Kentucky, Ole Miss, Miss St.
Big Ten: (9): All exc. Northwestern, Indiana, Minnesota
Pac-12: (9): All exc. Washington State, Utah, and Stanford
Big 12: (2): Texas, Oklahoma only
ACC: (2): Miami, Florida State only
Big East: (0)
MWC: (0)
C-USA: (0)
MAC: (0)
Sun Belt: (0)
WAC: (0)
Independents (1): Notre Dame

In the I-AA ranks, there's a similar prejudice, too, but that's for another topic.

Ah but see, that's something you and others still aren't catching onto yet.

Friends - the BCS is on its death bed! The plug is about to be pulled!


A selection committee is an entirely different animal. With actually humans pulling the levels and twisting the dials - you really could have the potential for an interesting team sneaking in at the 4th position. Granted, 4 teams isn't a lot to work with here. Maybe one day they'll cave and go to 8. But 4 is still enough to get someone fun in there, if there is a very compelling case to do so.

[MplsBison]

btw, who ever said I hated FBS football? Throwing me into a crowd I don't belong with there. I like all levels of football.

Not you specifically. But a lot on here hate FBS and teams that want to move FBS. The main argument is you can't win a championship unless you're in a BCS conference.

Well there's about to be no more such thing as the BCS.

[MplsBison]

Huh? I don't see that at all. Any SEC team that goes undefeated is automatically going to be in the top 4, and yes, even Kentucky or Vandy. Same really goes for those other top 4 conferences too.

I'd say ACC too, given that they retain Florida St and Clemson.

And the top Big East teams, if they go undefeated with some quality non-conference wins. And if you say that then you'd have to say it for probably Air Force, East Carolina as well as Navy and BYU.

[GannonFan]

I would agree with you 100% if it were decided on a formula or just polls, like the BCS now.

But a selection committee can take a common sense "listen to the will of the people" approach, as warranted. Let the big dogs have the top 3 bones....but throw a bone to someone else for a change too. See what I mean?

As I said, though, that ain't going to happen. "Will of the people"? Really? The big 4 conferences are going to hold all the chips in this game, and they're getting their guys into the final four. You make it seem like the end of the BCS is going to open things up - on the contrary, it's the big 4 conferences that are doing away with the BCS because they want to make it harder to get in since it was starting to look like they were going to be forced to open things up under the BCS. By getting rid of auto-bids, they have been able to take away the one avenue that other schools had to get into the national title picture. Without autobids, it's real easy to just not take someone from the Big 4 (which is why the Big East is breaking up - they needed the autobid to stay relevant and without it, they aren't). Like I said, two SEC teams get in there and now the other two spots are up for grabs from the 3 power conferences that aren't the SEC. The big dogs are going to control the "selection committee", however it ends up. All the maneuvering has been to cement their grip on who plays for the championship, not to make it more open.

[GannonFan]

I'd say ACC too, given that they retain Florida St and Clemson.

And the top Big East teams, if they go undefeated with some quality non-conference wins. And if you say that then you'd have to say it for probably Air Force, East Carolina as well as Navy and BYU.

If you truly believe that East Carolina is going to play for a national title any time soon, regardless of the number of wins, then there's no point continuing this conversation. Aint. Gonna. Happen. A two loss SEC team gets in before an undefeated ECU team.

[DFW HOYA]

Back to Villanova...

[Model Citizen]

Back to Villanova...

So, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is Villanova to be in Patriot League football 10 years from now? 10 would be a sure thing.

[superman7515]

1

[GannonFan]

1 - I don't see nova still even sponsoring football if it comes to playing in the Patriot League (no slight at the Patriot League intended, just guessing at nova's vision).

[Engineer86]

8 if they can get past the CAA nose they look down, otherwise I agree with above 1

They are a good fit now that scholarships are there, except for index

[Lehigh Football Nation]

IMO, this all depends on your view on whether the CAA will have an intact football conference in the next ten years. And personally, I think it's all tied to their candidates for expansion this go around.

In that vein, I'd put their chances at 2.5 out of 10: a 25% chance. I think it's likely that the CAA will survive in some form, but if it breaks apart for any reason, there's a 50/50 chance they'll go to the PL - more due to lack of options than anything else.

But really, there are so many factors - the CAA's health, Delaware's move (if any), etc.

[HailSzczur]

So, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is Villanova to be in Patriot League football 10 years from now? 10 would be a sure thing.

1 or 10. If the CAA has pretty much the same makeup it has right now than its 1. If the CAA shakes up its a 10

[HailSzczur]

1 - I don't see nova still even sponsoring football if it comes to playing in the Patriot League (no slight at the Patriot League intended, just guessing at nova's vision).

After the mistake to drop football 30 years ago I don't think we would rush to drop football again. Our track record lately has been to shuffle our feet on things, I don't think we would do anything rash at all

[Go...gate]

So, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is Villanova to be in Patriot League football 10 years from now? 10 would be a sure thing.

Five, up from one about six months to a year ago.

[MplsBison]

As I said, though, that ain't going to happen. "Will of the people"? Really? The big 4 conferences are going to hold all the chips in this game, and they're getting their guys into the final four. You make it seem like the end of the BCS is going to open things up - on the contrary, it's the big 4 conferences that are doing away with the BCS because they want to make it harder to get in since it was starting to look like they were going to be forced to open things up under the BCS. By getting rid of auto-bids, they have been able to take away the one avenue that other schools had to get into the national title picture. Without autobids, it's real easy to just not take someone from the Big 4 (which is why the Big East is breaking up - they needed the autobid to stay relevant and without it, they aren't). Like I said, two SEC teams get in there and now the other two spots are up for grabs from the 3 power conferences that aren't the SEC. The big dogs are going to control the "selection committee", however it ends up. All the maneuvering has been to cement their grip on who plays for the championship, not to make it more open.

Like I said, four teams isn't a lot to play with but it opens the door just a crack for something interesting to happen.

You tell me, what's more compelling TV: the number one seed from the SEC vs. the number four seed as a 9-4 team off an upset win of the Pac 12 championship game or a 13-0 East Carolina/Air Force/Boise/Navy team that has at least two quality wins and blown through everyone in the rest of their weaker schedule?

Doesn't need to be said. Just keep in mind how much TV money is the real controlling entity in this whole thing. I do believe within 5 years that a mid-major will get their chance in the top 4. It'll have to be an undefeated team with a big win non-conference and a perfect storm of 2-3 loss teams from other conferences. But it can happen...

Maybe you're just miffed beyond all belief that all the school who long ago decided to leave Delaware in the their dust may finally be playing in the same legitimate playoff system that the FCS has enjoyed for years. Maybe it's Delaware's time to join up with them again?

[MplsBison]

So, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is Villanova to be in Patriot League football 10 years from now? 10 would be a sure thing.

Impossible to have this conversation until we know how much the Patriot League is willing to compromise.

If they were a normal FCS league, then I would say absolutely it makes sense. But we all know that's not true.

[GannonFan]

Like I said, four teams isn't a lot to play with but it opens the door just a crack for something interesting to happen.

You tell me, what's more compelling TV: the number one seed from the SEC vs. the number four seed as a 9-4 team off an upset win of the Pac 12 championship game or a 13-0 East Carolina/Air Force/Boise/Navy team that has at least two quality wins and blown through everyone in the rest of their weaker schedule?

Doesn't need to be said. Just keep in mind how much TV money is the real controlling entity in this whole thing. I do believe within 5 years that a mid-major will get their chance in the top 4. It'll have to be an undefeated team with a big win non-conference and a perfect storm of 2-3 loss teams from other conferences. But it can happen...

Maybe you're just miffed beyond all belief that all the school who long ago decided to leave Delaware in the their dust may finally be playing in the same legitimate playoff system that the FCS has enjoyed for years. Maybe it's Delaware's time to join up with them again?

You even said the reason why this will never happen - the amount of TV money. The whole point of this is to avoid what happened with March Madness and to avoid letting non-power conferences get a share of the money. They don't want to share the money, and when it looked like non-power conferences were going to be able to use the auto-bid aspect to get in on the fun, lo and behold, they did away with auto-bids altogether. It's not like there's some independent commission looking into this to come up with a playoff plan - it's the power conferences deciding how they want to set up their own playoff. If UConn wants in, they need to find a way into the big conferences, and right now, they're waiting for an invite from the ACC, which isn't even one of the 4 power conferences.

Again, if you honestly think the playoff system in FBS (4 teams as decided by the power 4 conferences) will even in anyway resemble the playoff system in FCS (soon to be 24 teams with 11 or 12 autobids from any and all conferences) then you haven't been paying attention or don't understand what's going on - or both actually.

As for UD, it really doesn't matter - UD is what they are and I'll watch them no matter what level they play at. And I really don't think there's anything they could've done in the past 30 years to be sitting at the table in one of the power 4 conferences today. But I can live with that, it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of watching them on Saturdays in the Fall.

[GannonFan]

After the mistake to drop football 30 years ago I don't think we would rush to drop football again. Our track record lately has been to shuffle our feet on things, I don't think we would do anything rash at all

Not saying it's rash or something they would jump into. But nova's dance with FBS football and their inability to make that move has been going on now for 15 years or so - so something that could happen in the next 10 years isn't a "rush" or too "rash".

[MplsBison]

You even said the reason why this will never happen - the amount of TV money. The whole point of this is to avoid what happened with March Madness and to avoid letting non-power conferences get a share of the money. They don't want to share the money, and when it looked like non-power conferences were going to be able to use the auto-bid aspect to get in on the fun, lo and behold, they did away with auto-bids altogether. It's not like there's some independent commission looking into this to come up with a playoff plan - it's the power conferences deciding how they want to set up their own playoff. If UConn wants in, they need to find a way into the big conferences, and right now, they're waiting for an invite from the ACC, which isn't even one of the 4 power conferences.

Again, if you honestly think the playoff system in FBS (4 teams as decided by the power 4 conferences) will even in anyway resemble the playoff system in FCS (soon to be 24 teams with 11 or 12 autobids from any and all conferences) then you haven't been paying attention or don't understand what's going on - or both actually.

As for UD, it really doesn't matter - UD is what they are and I'll watch them no matter what level they play at. And I really don't think there's anything they could've done in the past 30 years to be sitting at the table in one of the power 4 conferences today. But I can live with that, it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of watching them on Saturdays in the Fall.

Share what money? TV money. Therefore TV has a say in it.

Better ratings is more money for everyone. And letting a smaller dog take the last bone is better TV ratings.


The committee won't be entirely controlled by 4 of the 6 top football conferences. You're definitely wrong about that.

[DFW HOYA]

So, on a scale of 1-10, how likely is Villanova to be in Patriot League football 10 years from now? 10 would be a sure thing.

Or as John McLaughlin might say it, "Issue 1! On a scale of 0 to 10—with 0 representing zero possibility and 10 representing metaphysical certitude—what is the expectation of the following schools in Patriot League football by 2020?"

Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Bucknell: 10
Fordham: 8
Georgetown: 4.75
Duquesne: 2.5
Villanova, Marist: 2
VMI, W&M, Richmond, 1.5
UNH, Maine, URI: 1
Army, Navy: 0

[Sader87]

Or as John McLaughlin might say it, "Issue 1! On a scale of 0 to 10—with 0 representing zero possibility and 10 representing metaphysical certitude—what is the expectation of the following schools in Patriot League football by 2020?"

Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Bucknell: 10
Fordham: 8
Georgetown: 4.75
Duquesne: 2.5
Villanova, Marist: 2
VMI, W&M, Richmond, 1.5
UNH, Maine, URI: 1
Army, Navy: 0

Pretty good breakdown but I'd put VU higher on the scale. Institutionally, geographically and historically they "fit" into the PL much higher than the other non-PL schools on this list.

Also, 2020 is probably too soon a timeframe but it wouldn't shock me to see West Point and Annapolis ultimately as football members given the continuing cesspool-like activities in the FBS division.

[MplsBison]

Or as John McLaughlin might say it, "Issue 1! On a scale of 0 to 10—with 0 representing zero possibility and 10 representing metaphysical certitude—what is the expectation of the following schools in Patriot League football by 2020?"

Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Bucknell: 10
Fordham: 8
Georgetown: 4.75
Duquesne: 2.5
Villanova, Marist: 2
VMI, W&M, Richmond, 1.5
UNH, Maine, URI: 1
Army, Navy: 0

WRONG!!!

Bye-byeee!

[MplsBison]

Pretty good breakdown but I'd put VU higher on the scale. Institutionally, geographically and historically they "fit" into the PL much higher than the other non-PL schools on this list.

Also, 2020 is probably too soon a timeframe but it wouldn't shock me to see West Point and Annapolis ultimately as football members given the continuing cesspool-like activities in the FBS division.

Villanova's athletic department has never subscribed or submitted to an academic index in their entire history, that I'm aware of.

That entirely negates any kind of supposed historical compatibly with the PL institutions.

[Doc QB]

As for UD, it really doesn't matter - UD is what they are and I'll watch them no matter what level they play at. And I really don't think there's anything they could've done in the past 30 years to be sitting at the table in one of the power 4 conferences today. But I can live with that, it doesn't take away from my enjoyment of watching them on Saturdays in the Fall.
Well said.

[GannonFan]

Share what money? TV money. Therefore TV has a say in it.

Better ratings is more money for everyone. And letting a smaller dog take the last bone is better TV ratings.


The committee won't be entirely controlled by 4 of the 6 top football conferences. You're definitely wrong about that.

Huh? March Madness proves the opposite of that - the lower TV rating games are the ones that include the underdogs. As great of a story as VCU and George Mason and Butler were, often those games got less ratings than the ones with more marquee names. Heck, most of the games for those cinderella teams didn't even go to most of the nation.

I think underdogs are great and I love the storylines, but that doesn't translate into tv ratings at all. March Madness has better ratings when two big name schools play each other than when an underdog gets in there. If TV gets involved, and of course they will, do you think they're going to debate long on whether they want a one or two loss, non-SEC champion Alabama in the top 4 (as a second SEC teams) or an undefeated UConn or Rutgers? That's assuming they even debate it at all.

[MplsBison]

Huh? March Madness proves the opposite of that - the lower TV rating games are the ones that include the underdogs. As great of a story as VCU and George Mason and Butler were, often those games got less ratings than the ones with more marquee names. Heck, most of the games for those cinderella teams didn't even go to most of the nation.

I think underdogs are great and I love the storylines, but that doesn't translate into tv ratings at all. March Madness has better ratings when two big name schools play each other than when an underdog gets in there. If TV gets involved, and of course they will, do you think they're going to debate long on whether they want a one or two loss, non-SEC champion Alabama in the top 4 (as a second SEC teams) or an undefeated UConn or Rutgers? That's assuming they even debate it at all.

You're completely wrong, not sure why you're saying this.

The underdog is what make the matchup interesting. That's the only reason a casual fan would watch the game. Otherwise it's just hardcore college bball fans and alumni watching games like Duke vs Kentucky.


Therefore an undefeated Navy v Alabama matchup as the 1-4 game would be far, far more compelling than a 10-3 Arizona v Alabama game.