Fordham Eligible for PL Title... in 2014

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.patriotleague.org/genrel/060812aaa.html


The Council discussed a number of football initiatives, most notably the reinstatement of Fordham's eligibility for the Patriot League's automatic berth to the NCAA Division I Football Championship. The Rams will become eligible for the Patriot League Championship and NCAA automatic qualification spot beginning in the 2014 season. Fordham's games against Patriot League members will not count towards the final League standings for each of the next two seasons. The Rams have been ineligible for the Patriot League title since awarding athletic merit aid to the class entering in the fall of 2010, which was against Patriot League policy.

Bitter, bitter, bitter pill to swallow for Fordham. My only question: Why?

[DFW HOYA]

Why reduce roster sizes?

[aceinthehole]

http://www.patriotleague.org/genrel/060812aaa.html



Bitter, bitter, bitter pill to swallow for Fordham. My only question: Why?

I agree, but to me this says that Fordham clearly values its PL affiliation in football if it puts up with all this. That being said, Fordham doesn't have any other options to move at this time. At least the Council did the right thing and made Fordham players eligible for PL awards. I always thought that policy was a bit overboard regarding Fordham's unapproved issuance of scholarships.

I also don't understand why they would reduce football roster size. Any thoughts?

[MplsBison]

The roster size thing is kinda moot.

The NCAA allows 85 players max to receive some amount of a scholarship equivalency in a given season, for both FBS and FCS teams.

So you're basically just limiting the number of non-recruited players who can participate in fall camp. And by participate, I mean hold bags and set-up drills until the scout teams start running.

[MplsBison]

Forham obviously doesn't value the Patriot League for anything more than convenience in FCS. A10 in bball means they should be playing CAA in football.

[DFW HOYA]

"The Council discussed a number of football initiatives." What the news release didn't say:

1. Expansion? "No takers."
2. Better TV deal? "Two games a year is fine."
3. Will Georgetown add scholarships? "Um, let's kick that can down the road."

[RichH2]

A mistake IMO to hold Fordham til 2014. Petty and unnecessary. Roster size an unusual move, it seems, as Pl schools max out at 60. $$$$ ? Perhaps but do walkons really cost that much?No news anywhere else other than dribble about "landscape". Does roster max help or hurt search for expansion.?

[MplsBison]

Maybe it's not cost on the roster size, but rather participation. IE, title IX

[RichH2]

Maybe it's not cost on the roster size, but rather participation. IE, title IX

Not sure but you may have a point. Does not really open many slots at least at LU maybe 7-10 . Would be major if squads were same size as Small Higgins days. Some of those squads were over 120

[bison137]

. Roster size an unusual move, it seems, as Pl schools max out at 60. $$$$ ?


I doubt any PL school will have only 60 counters. Max allowed is 85 and I imagine most will be close to that number.

Also, despite the inaccurate statement by MplsBison, all 90-95 of the rostered players may well be recruited athletes.

[Bogus Megapardus]

All other issues aside, Fordham ought to be eligible for the Patriot title in 2013. Even if the Rams had scorched their way through the league over past couple of years with the benefit of scholarships, I'd have said the same thing. I don't see the need for a "compromise" here - unless there's some pressure in Center Valley for Fordham to re-join the Patriot in all sports (which it should do in any event).

Basketball ties Fordham to the A-10, but Fordham would be a mid-to-low basketball team in the Patriot as it stands now. With Lafayette (for example) playing Kentucky, Stanford, Maryland and Minnesota in the upcoming season, and with other PL teams set to play similar teams, it's not like the Patriot doesn't play competitive basketball schedules. Drop the water polo, pick up lacrosse, and come back home for all sports you guys.

[MplsBison]

I doubt any PL school will have only 60 counters. Max allowed is 85 and I imagine most will be close to that number.

Also, despite the inaccurate statement by MplsBison, all 90-95 of the rostered players may well be recruited athletes.

There is such a thing as a recruited walk-on, NDSU has a few in every signing class and occasionally a couple of them earn some form of scholarship; every now and then a contributing spot on the two deep.

I suppose since PL players don't sign NLI every incoming class is technically comprised entirely of recruited walkons. Boy that would suck to show up at fall camp, battle for 3 weeks and then be told by the coach "you remember how I promised to you in your living room, in front of your folks, that the athletic department here was going to make sure your financial need was covered with grants? Doesn't look like that's gonna work out for you....hope your parents can cover that cost - it's a lot!!! Welp, see ya".

[DFW HOYA]

I suppose since PL players don't sign NLI every incoming class is technically comprised entirely of recruited walkons. Boy that would suck to show up at fall camp, battle for 3 weeks and then be told by the coach "you remember how I promised to you in your living room, in front of your folks, that the athletic department here was going to make sure your financial need was covered with grants? Doesn't look like that's gonna work out for you....hope your parents can cover that cost - it's a lot!!! Welp, see ya".

Most if not all PL financial aid doesn't come from the athletic department (except in the case of Fordham) but in the school's general financial aid budget, which means your example is unlikely and could just as easily been another example--a player shows up the first week and quits, and he's already admitted, and with aid.

How this all changes in 2012 for the five schools adding scholarship aid, I don't know.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Fordham has ready ramped up to the full 63 (or close to it) haven't they? Since the rest of the PL is only allowed to add 15 per year perhaps the rule keeping Fordham out for a couple more is just to allow the other schools to catch up.

[carney2]

Fordham has ready ramped up to the full 63 (or close to it) haven't they? Since the rest of the PL is only allowed to add 15 per year perhaps the rule keeping Fordham out for a couple more is just to allow the other schools to catch up.

If that's not the "thinking," it will certainly be the party line. As many have pointed out here and elsewhere Fordham has more than done their part. They deserve better than this.

[MplsBison]

Most if not all PL financial aid doesn't come from the athletic department (except in the case of Fordham) but in the school's general financial aid budget, which means your example is unlikely and could just as easily been another example--a player shows up the first week and quits, and he's already admitted, and with aid.

How this all changes in 2012 for the five schools adding scholarship aid, I don't know.

No - I'm going to argue that you factually wrong in this case. And yes I'm referring to the PL "of old".

Certainly it was the case that no PL football player ever received more total grant money than what is determined by the school as his "need". And that need was determined in the same way that it was for all the school's students.


BUT, the grants themselves that the player received either came directly from the athletic department or more likely from endowed gifts to the athletic department for the express purpose of awarding student athletes.


It HAS to be that way. Why? Because the NCAA said that schools like Lehigh, Colgate, etc. had more than 50 or so scholarship equivalencies while on the other hand they said that schools like Dayton and Butler had zero scholarship equivalencies.

We both know that football players at all of those schools don't pay the full cost of tuition out of their own pockets (EXCLUDING federal aid). So what's the difference?

As I claim, the difference is the source of the grants. From the athletic department (or indirectly, as gifts endowed to award athletes) -> scholarship equivalent. Not from the athletic department -> not scholarship equivalent.

I wish I had the wherewithal to back this up with text right from the NCAA handbook, but alas I don't have the time or the patience. But it has to be in there somewhere.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I was one of those who has previously argued for giving the Rams a shot at the conference title before 2014. Their struggles in the previous two (scholarship) seasons illustrate that the challenges in the PL tend to be played out on the field. If they do win the defacto PL title, they should be sitting pretty to win an at large bid, especially in 2013 with an expanded field. They just can't lose to Lock Haven.

[DFW HOYA]

BUT, the grants themselves that the player received either came directly from the athletic department or more likely from endowed gifts to the athletic department for the express purpose of awarding student athletes.It HAS to be that way. Why? Because the NCAA said that schools like Lehigh, Colgate, etc. had more than 50 or so scholarship equivalencies while on the other hand they said that schools like Dayton and Butler had zero scholarship equivalencies. We both know that football players at all of those schools don't pay the full cost of tuition out of their own pockets (EXCLUDING federal aid). So what's the difference? As I claim, the difference is the source of the grants. From the athletic department (or indirectly, as gifts endowed to award athletes) -> scholarship equivalent. Not from the athletic department -> not scholarship equivalent.

Yes and no.. Fordham says their money comes from the athletic department, fine. By contrast, All of Georgetown's financial aid (incl. scholarships) are distributed through the University's financial aid office, not the coach, yet there are still equivalencies in the mix due to monies awarded for athletic talent (i.e., scholarship) vs. need.

Long answer to a short question: the source of funds may may differ by school, the distinction in use is consistent (scholarship vs. need).

[Go...gate]

If that's not the "thinking," it will certainly be the party line. As many have pointed out here and elsewhere Fordham has more than done their part. They deserve better than this.

Yes.

[MplsBison]

Yes and no.. Fordham says their money comes from the athletic department, fine. By contrast, All of Georgetown's financial aid (incl. scholarships) are distributed through the University's financial aid office, not the coach, yet there are still equivalencies in the mix due to monies awarded for athletic talent (i.e., scholarship) vs. need.

Long answer to a short question: the source of funds may may differ by school, the distinction in use is consistent (scholarship vs. need).

So then why did the Georgetown football team have scholarship equivalencies in the 20's while Dayton had zero?

[DFW HOYA]

So then why did the Georgetown football team have scholarship equivalencies in the 20's while Dayton had zero?

OK, we're veering off topic, but a quick diversion.

In Georgetown's case, scholarships were issued through the financial aid office through 1950. Its last scholarship team had a schedule which included Penn State, Miami, Tulsa, Maryland, BC, Villanova, Fordham, Holy Cross and George Washington. The official story at the time was that the 81 scholarships were dropped over declining enrollment due to the Korean War, though there is a line of thought that the school president (who mysteriously left GU and was replaced a year later) reallocated the scholarships to his control for other academic projects. Either way, they didn't come back.

Dayton was a major college (scholarship) program through 1976. UD was an independent but played MAC and Missouri Valley level opponents. Its final full scholarship team included Eastern Kentucky, Youngstown State, Villanova, Indiana State, Ball State, Akron, Marshall, Toledo, Northeast Louisiana, Temple, and Miami OH. How they allocated funds I don't know.

But back to Fordham.

There seems consensus that Fordham is being punished for what the PL eventually adopted. If Lehigh had led this charge, would the PL be so quick to render their program ineligible for four seasons? Probably not. But the PL leadership seems uncomfortable tackling the pressing topics of the league (whether to be the Ivy League's wingman or its own regional conference, meaningful expansion, what to do with Georgetown, etc.) and instead posts a press release that reduces roster sizes.

[carney2]

...the PL leadership seems uncomfortable tackling the pressing topics of the league (whether to be the Ivy League's wingman or its own regional conference, meaningful expansion, what to do with Georgetown, etc.) and instead posts a press release that reduces roster sizes.

Your paranoia shines through again, DFW. Exactly why does the Patriot League have any responsibility for Georgetown? The rules are set and the good folks in D.C. do what they do. No one is gunning for you and most certainly no one is making any decisions to punish you. The Hoyas make their own bed. Accept it.

[MplsBison]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with going off topic. Like it's some cardinal sin. Especially when the thread topic is played out and the veering topic is very interesting and informative.

Thank you for the interesting history. Sorry to unappreciative, but frankly - you completely dodged the issue.


I'm going to be very specific now. If you don't know the answer, fine! I'm not sure that my answer is correct. There probably aren't a lot of people with the kind of access who can elucidate a meaningful response. But I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

For the 2011 season, my intuition (based on what I've read on these forums) is that Georgetown was providing somewhere around 20 scholarship equivalencies of money to football players. In that same season, my intuition (again based on what I've read on these forums about the Pioneer League) is that Dayton was not providing any scholarship equivalencies of money to their football players.

However, in both cases my intuition says that GU's and DU's football players received money from their respective institutions totally more than 20 scholarship equivalencies worth, that they will NOT have to pay back and was not from federal sources!

I don't have any kind of links from DU, GU or the NCAA to back this up. I could be wrong, but I think that's correct.


So assuming everything above is correct - how can the NCAA say that GU was around 20 (or so) while Dayton was around zero?? I've given an explanation of why I think this is true in a previous post.

Do you agree with that? Or can you provide another answer?

Can anyone here confirm I'm correct or provide the actual answer?

[RichH2]

While DFW does let his persecution complex slip out a bit, his points are absolutely correct. An entire PL MEETING and all we want to do now is add women's golf. BBall replay and limit football rosters. Somehow , while I have little confidence in PL leadership, I dont doubt there were significant talks on "landscape" and Title IX and expansion, just no resolution . Is there a strategy or plan in place? Have we passed on it altogether? Or are we awaiting more dominoes to topple? Or are we so insular now that we think that scholarships will make us irresistable once we max out? On women's golf, which I think is oerdue and a fine idea, one wonders whether we will imitate some SEC schools that added equestrian ( women only) squads of over a hundred . Just sayin......xchinscratchx

[Ken_Z]

"The Council discussed a number of football initiatives." What the news release didn't say:


2. Better TV deal? "Two games a year is fine."


don't know the specifics of how or why,but the Bucknell/Havaaahd game has been added to the CBS Sports tv schedule.

[ngineer]

While DFW does let his persecution complex slip out a bit, his points are absolutely correct. An entire PL MEETING and all we want to do now is add women's golf. BBall replay and limit football rosters. Somehow , while I have little confidence in PL leadership, I dont doubt there were significant talks on "landscape" and Title IX and expansion, just no resolution . Is there a strategy or plan in place? Have we passed on it altogether? Or are we awaiting more dominoes to topple? Or are we so insular now that we think that scholarships will make us irresistable once we max out? On women's golf, which I think is oerdue and a fine idea, one wonders whether we will imitate some SEC schools that added equestrian ( women only) squads of over a hundred . Just sayin......xchinscratchx

With all the upheaval in the national sports landscape, and the reticent attitude of our 'fearless' leaders, I would guess there was discussion, but there will be little or no action....UNLESS one of the "marquee" names in FCS football (i.e. Richmond, Villanova, Wm & Mary, etc.) came to us with a hard inquiry. Otherwise, we'll just maintain the status quo and see what drops from the various transitions.

[Doc QB]

Most if not all PL financial aid doesn't come from the athletic department (except in the case of Fordham) but in the school's general financial aid budget, which means your example is unlikely and could just as easily been another example--a player shows up the first week and quits, and he's already admitted, and with aid.

How this all changes in 2012 for the five schools adding scholarship aid, I don't know.

That is incorrect, it does come from the Athletic Dept at schools except G'town. This is why Fordham made the jump easily.

[bison137]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with going off topic. Like it's some cardinal sin. Especially when the thread topic is played out and the veering topic is very interesting and informative.

Thank you for the interesting history. Sorry to unappreciative, but frankly - you completely dodged the issue.


I'm going to be very specific now. If you don't know the answer, fine! I'm not sure that my answer is correct. There probably aren't a lot of people with the kind of access who can elucidate a meaningful response. But I'm going to throw it out there anyway.

For the 2011 season, my intuition (based on what I've read on these forums) is that Georgetown was providing somewhere around 20 scholarship equivalencies of money to football players. In that same season, my intuition (again based on what I've read on these forums about the Pioneer League) is that Dayton was not providing any scholarship equivalencies of money to their football players.

However, in both cases my intuition says that GU's and DU's football players received money from their respective institutions totally more than 20 scholarship equivalencies worth, that they will NOT have to pay back and was not from federal sources!

I don't have any kind of links from DU, GU or the NCAA to back this up. I could be wrong, but I think that's correct.


So assuming everything above is correct - how can the NCAA say that GU was around 20 (or so) while Dayton was around zero?? I've given an explanation of why I think this is true in a previous post.

Do you agree with that? Or can you provide another answer?

Can anyone here confirm I'm correct or provide the actual answer?


If any money was paid to any student that they do not have to pay back, it counts as an equivalency unless all non-football players get exactly the same treatment as to how much money is given them and whether it has to be paid back or not. Thus it's unlikely you are correct.

[bison137]

There is such a thing as a recruited walk-on, NDSU has a few in every signing class and occasionally a couple of them earn some form of scholarship; every now and then a contributing spot on the two deep.

I suppose since PL players don't sign NLI every incoming class is technically comprised entirely of recruited walkons. Boy that would suck to show up at fall camp, battle for 3 weeks and then be told by the coach "you remember how I promised to you in your living room, in front of your folks, that the athletic department here was going to make sure your financial need was covered with grants? Doesn't look like that's gonna work out for you....hope your parents can cover that cost - it's a lot!!! Welp, see ya".


The above is absurdly inaccurate. No player will lose any aid they were promised. First of all, only 15 equivalencies are being added per year, so players with need-based aid are graduating at the same rate as scholarships are being added. And second, the roster limit doesn't fall to 90 until 2016, i.e. after every player receiving aid under the current system is gone.

[MplsBison]

That is incorrect, it does come from the Athletic Dept at schools except G'town. This is why Fordham made the jump easily.

I think it must even at GTown, otherwise why would the NCAA say that GU has 20 equivalencies even last season?

There have to be a select few players at Gtown who are getting grants to fulfill their financial need which are funded from endowed gifts to the athletic department for the express use of funding student-athletes, else I would think they'd count them at zero just like Dayton, et al.

[MplsBison]

If any money was paid to any student that they do not have to pay back, it counts as an equivalency unless all non-football players get exactly the same treatment as to how much money is given them and whether it has to be paid back or not. Thus it's unlikely you are correct.

My hypothesis could well be incorrect, but I don't think so. Plus you're going to have to do a lot better than that to convince me.

I can promise you right now that Dayton football players are getting money from the school (NOT from federal sources) that they don't have to pay back. Why doesn't that count as a scholarship equivalency with the NCAA?

[MplsBison]

The above is absurdly inaccurate. No player will lose any aid they were promised. First of all, only 15 equivalencies are being added per year, so players with need-based aid are graduating at the same rate as scholarships are being added. And second, the roster limit doesn't fall to 90 until 2016, i.e. after every player receiving aid under the current system is gone.

I am not questioning your last two statements, those are factually correct. But they have nothing to do with your first two statements and my argument. So lets focus on those.

How can you guarantee that Bucknell couldn't have pulled the grants out from under a player who showed up at fall camp and found the situation was nothing like what was described to him in his living room? The player doesn't sign a NLI. He doesn't sign any guarantee to those grants.


So I can't see by what means you can possibly guarantee that those grants won't be pulled and replaced with loans, need study or whatever standard aid that normal students receive. That way the (former) player still gets the financial aid he needs, just like any student gets, but not as a grant from the athletic department that he won't have to pay back and therefore won't count against the team as an equivalency.

[MplsBison]

The REAL interesting situation is when the PL schools can eventually muster a model like the military academies: anyone who is enrolled in the school simply gets their costs paid for.

That would mean anyone who could gain access to the school via the football program would essentially have a free ride, full scholarship - even if they never set foot on the field. You could almost just say that the football team gets 200 slots in a given year for automatic enrollment (given they meet minimum academic requirements). You could even recruit players just to keep them away from other programs!

[Doc QB]

So I can't see by what means you can possibly guarantee that those grants won't be pulled and replaced with loans, need study or whatever standard aid that normal students receive. That way the (former) player still gets the financial aid he needs, just like any student gets, but not as a grant from the athletic department that he won't have to pay back and therefore won't count against the team as an equivalency.

Lehigh had a "Letter of Understanding" in my day, am sure it is the same today. It had the dollar amount the athletic department was giving you in aid, based on the number the FAFSA form said you were entitled to (if coach wanted to give you all of it, some got less, none got a dime more than that money).

I know of no player who showed up and had their money pulled. But, there were a number of others, some recruited walk ons, surprised to learn how/where other players got their aid and that it was tied to participation. Quit team, you get general population aid, nothing for athletic department. It is not all that hard to grasp, nor is the move to unrestricted scholarships.

[RichH2]

I'm a few years (decades) in front of you Doc. Pretty much the same for us. Letter we got was a Letter of Intent. True if you quit then you went to general aid . Altho practice in my day ,if you were injured off the team. as I was, no change in aid money.

85 players receiving athletic related aid whether merit or need. Strictly academic merit aid does not count towards 85

[MplsBison]

Thanks Doc, you're one of the very few PL and PFL posters I trust on the murky topic of aid to football players in those conferences.

So, the PL schools don't use the NLI but instead have a different letter of intent that does the exact same thing, at least for the school's commitment to the player. Do you know if new players receiving scholarships will use the NLI moving forward?


To be clear - I never meant that someone could show up to a PL school as a student-athlete, quit the team and then not receive any financial aid because of that decision! What I meant is entirely what you just confirmed, that they could have their specific grants from the athletic department pulled and then the money would be replaced with standard aid.

So the scenario that I described is perfectly plausible, per your definition of the "letter of understanding". In other words, the athletic department is just saying "this is the maximum amount in grants that you could receive from the athletic department towards fulfilling you demonstrated financial need, depending on factors such as your participation on the team, etc." and so it's perfectly reasonable that a recruit who was promised X amount in grants could show up to fall camp, battle hard for 3 weeks, perform "not up to expectations" and end up receiving far less in grant money that was promised in recruiting.


That's a very unethical system. Just proves how much better scholarships are. A player signs the NLI and he gets that amount of scholarship guaranteed for 1 year. No carpet pulling.

Now maybe such a scenario is very, very unlikely in practice at the PL schools - but even its possibility is unacceptable in my book. If I were king of everything, I'd force the PL to convert 100% of athletic related aid to the standard scholarship form by 2012-13 season, but I'm not. It will have to be good enough that they slowly abandon the practice over the next few years.

[DetroitFlyer]

My hypothesis could well be incorrect, but I don't think so. Plus you're going to have to do a lot better than that to convince me.

I can promise you right now that Dayton football players are getting money from the school (NOT from federal sources) that they don't have to pay back. Why doesn't that count as a scholarship equivalency with the NCAA?

If a Dayton football player quits the team, they keep their aid. Not always true of "atheltic aid" programs. I believe this is only true in the PFL and Ivy in FCS.

[MplsBison]

If a Dayton football player quits the team, they keep their aid. Not always true of "atheltic aid" programs. I believe this is only true in the PFL and Ivy in FCS.

Right, because the grants awarded to PFL football players from their respective schools have nothing to do with them being football players "in theory". I mean we all know full and well that they get the grant over probably more deserving students because of the fact that they're football players, but they can't say that. Otherwise it probably would count as an equivalency.

[bison137]

My hypothesis could well be incorrect, but I don't think so. Plus you're going to have to do a lot better than that to convince me.

I can promise you right now that Dayton football players are getting money from the school (NOT from federal sources) that they don't have to pay back. Why doesn't that count as a scholarship equivalency with the NCAA?


Why don't you try reading the NCAA manual. The rules are very clear for anyone who can understand English. As for Dayton, if they have a different policy for football players in terms of paying back loans, then it will count as an equivalency.

[bison137]

The REAL interesting situation is when the PL schools can eventually muster a model like the military academies: anyone who is enrolled in the school simply gets their costs paid for.



Just to fund free tuition for eveyone would require an endowment of approximately $4.1 Billion for Bucknell. That won't be happening for at least the next 1000 years for any PL school.

[MplsBison]

Why don't you try reading the NCAA manual. The rules are very clear for anyone who can understand English. As for Dayton, if they have a different policy for football players in terms of paying back loans, then it will count as an equivalency.

Oh like you've read it. BS.

You're wrong. Simple as that and I'm certain the rules in the NCAA handbook would back me up if I had the time and will to look them up.

For now, I'm content with simply declaring you don't know what you're talking about.

[MplsBison]

Just to fund free tuition for eveyone would require an endowment of approximately $4.1 Billion for Bucknell. That won't be happening for at least the next 1000 years for any PL school.

Decrease tuition then. Why is it so fraudulently high anyway?

[RichH2]

Geez guys, why do you let him bait you. At best 1 in 20 of his rants has. some basis. and that I think is mere happenstance. Like many he does not let logic or facts get in the way of his opinions. If you let him be he will eventually drift to some other conference's thread and annoy them.

Maybe we should start a Wofford to the PL thread. Given all the rampant speculation on everyone else not fair t leave W out of it

[van]

A little Mark Twain advice would go a long way here!