Revolutionary Thinking to Save the CAA

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/79-college-sports-journal/chuck-burton/222-revolutionary-thinking-to-save-the-caa

Yes, more rumor-mongering! More thoughts on conference realignment! More Patriot League! More CAA! More FCS love! xlolx

[BisonHype!]

Not a terrible idea. Then again, I am not in either conference. Tough to ask the Patriot League to disband.

[DFW HOYA]

The AI issues would derail this issue from the core Patriot League schools because they would either a) expect all CAA schools to recruit at their level, which won't happen, or b) they would have to recruit at the CAA level and that goes against their view of athletics.

The PL remains fortunate to have stayed out of the I-AA realignment fray as long as it has.

[NHwildEcat]

Out of everything I have heard...I love this. I think it is exactly as you state. Out of the box, but I see it as very enticing. Everybody plays within thir conference in a round robin format and then you have somewhat of a championship game in the last week of the season between the two 1 seeds for the auto-bid. And that fact that all the rest of the teams could play cross games depending on seeding is a great idea as well.

The 1 seeds could play a night game @ 7 on NBC Sport Network after all the other final week games have been played to highlight the importance of it even more, and to give it more of that conference title game feel.

I like this...


...which means it would never happen.

[WileECoyote06]

The Division II PSAC conference does the cross divisional last week of the regular season format.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Tossing the Bison and Georgetown? Gee, this schedule keeps Bucknell football away from its three most frequent rivals--Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate-- 218 total games over the years(Fordham and HC are another 56), while sticking them in a division which, aside from Georgetown, provides only Delaware as some sort of historic rival. Georgetown certainly has not signed on for this sort of football profile.

Thanks for the toss under the bus. This has to be non-starter in Lewisburg, and is revealing of the regard you hold for the rivalry. Dragging Bravman this far into scholarship-land deserves much better than this payoff. Georgetown's gone in this scenario and the CAA has played with 11 or twelve teams before and gotten more than one team into the tournament. The Patriot League is going to have to grow its way to being parallel in performance with the CAA as a unit.

[van]

Doubt that Bucknell would like being in the south.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Tossing the Bison and Georgetown? Gee, this schedule keeps Bucknell football away from its three most frequent rivals--Lafayette, Lehigh and Colgate-- 218 total games over the years(Fordham and HC are another 56), while sticking them in a division which, aside from Georgetown, provides only Delaware as some sort of historic rival. Georgetown certainly has not signed on for this sort of football profile.

Thanks for the toss under the bus. This has to be non-starter in Lewisburg, and is revealing of the regard you hold for the rivalry. Dragging Bravman this far into scholarship-land deserves much better than this payoff. Georgetown's gone in this scenario and the CAA has played with 11 or twelve teams before and gotten more than one team into the tournament. The Patriot League is going to have to grow its way to being parallel in performance with the CAA as a unit.

Maybe so, but you toss the idea of football home-and-home's with James Madison and Delaware under the bus just as easily. If anything, Bucknell and Georgetown get a fantastic deal here. IMO. The five PL scools in the North don't get those guaranteed games.

Similarly, I would think Georgetown would be very interested in not only those games, but a compact conference that are all bus trips, scholarship challenges nonwithstanding. And that's before TV.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

You are blithely assuming some sort of UNCC-style of 'moving on up' epiphany in Georgetown, home of the Multi-Purpose Nightmare and residing in the Big East, a league much healthier than the obits you have writing for it. That NBC Sports broadcast he best not interfere with that Hoya FIOS deal.

Hey, did you see the Bison announced their recruiting class? One guy is 6'8, 370.... please, re-enter reality...Could you not speculate too much about the future of a conference with more members than the Patriot, routinely multiple bids into the national FCS tournament, and still packing four recent national champions?

[DFW HOYA]

I'll put the Georgetown view aside for a moment and raise this: Lewisburg is north of Easton, isn't it? Why isn't Lafayette (or Lehigh) in the southern division?

[MplsBison]

The AI issues would derail this issue from the core Patriot League schools because they would either a) expect all CAA schools to recruit at their level, which won't happen, or b) they would have to recruit at the CAA level and that goes against their view of athletics.

The PL remains fortunate to have stayed out of the I-AA realignment fray as long as it has.

The Patriot schools (and Ivy, for that matter) are thickly insulated from the rest of Division I by a barrier of ideology. Of course that goes both ways for the Patriot - no one worth having wants in!

[heath]

Keep smoking that revolutionary pipexlolx

[Sader87]

Not a horrific idea but I also can't envision GTown being pleased in not playing HC and Fordham yearly.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

It would break the geography a bit, but trading Lehigh and Lafayette for Georgetown and Bucknell wouldn't be too bad, that way G-Town doesn't get thrown to the wolves, Bucknell gets to keep some traditional rivalries, and Lehigh and Lafayette get to keep each other. Lehigh also has about as much history with Delaware as it does with most of the PL schools besides Lafayette.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

It isn't that I think you you are ignorant on these themes. You are not. You still plowed on forward with a ludicrous pre-Memorial Day blather.

[Humble Steward]

Interesting, not sure if I agree, but definitely a plausible ideaxcoffeex.

[mainejeff]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/79-college-sports-journal/chuck-burton/222-revolutionary-thinking-to-save-the-caa

Yes, more rumor-mongering! More thoughts on conference realignment! More Patriot League! More CAA! More FCS love! xlolx

Love that idea. I don't care who administers it........but that is a great line-up of schools and FCS programs. With a 24 game playoff system, I see at least 7 or 8 berths per season for this group.

[Go...gate]

Why not just a scheduling agreement like the Patriot and Ivy had for many years?

[dgreco]

I think it makes sense in theory, but the ideology of the leagues is very different. I think it is much more probable that some sort of AEast league emerges and takes some CAA/NEC teams and the PL takes some teams like Richmond and W&M, especially since the PL has changed its stance on scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

Adding scholarships is not the end of the questions for the PL, it only raises new ones.

If the league wanted to become "Ivy Plus" by offering grants, that will certainly help with beating Harvard and Yale until the Ivies begin to scale back their schedules with these teams. If the league wants to compete at the CAA level and above, scholarships alone won't be enough, because JMU, Richmond and W&M can recruit kids that the PL can't touch with its academic index. I-AA schools outside the Ivy and the PL can recruit with the National Letter of Intent, they can redshirt/greenshirt/grayshirt, they can be a lot more aggressive in recruiting. No one at Villlanova or UNH is told by their conference they can only recruit two players with a certain GPA and SAT range.

For this to work, either the PL has to become a lot more like the CAA, or vice versa, and neither is likely.

[van]

Adding scholarships is not the end of the questions for the PL, it only raises new ones.

If the league wanted to become "Ivy Plus" by offering grants, that will certainly help with beating Harvard and Yale until the Ivies begin to scale back their schedules with these teams. If the league wants to compete at the CAA level and above, scholarships alone won't be enough, because JMU, Richmond and W&M can recruit kids that the PL can't touch with its academic index. I-AA schools outside the Ivy and the PL can recruit with the National Letter of Intent, they can redshirt/greenshirt/grayshirt, they can be a lot more aggressive in recruiting. No one at Villlanova or UNH is told by their conference they can only recruit two players with a certain GPA and SAT range.

For this to work, either the PL has to become a lot more like the CAA, or vice versa, and neither is likely.

I believe that there is enough talent out there with PL academic credentials to compete with CAA if the economics are leveled. No question that PL will still be at some disadvantage putting a premium on effective recruiting.

[Engineer86]

It would break the geography a bit, but trading Lehigh and Lafayette for Georgetown and Bucknell wouldn't be too bad, that way G-Town doesn't get thrown to the wolves, Bucknell gets to keep some traditional rivalries, and Lehigh and Lafayette get to keep each other. Lehigh also has about as much history with Delaware as it does with most of the PL schools besides Lafayette.

I can't see moving Georgetown into the North based on Geography, but give me Lafayette and Colgate/Bucknell alternatong years with one other as an OOC game and I sign on as a Lehigh fan in the southern division. I would want some assurance the we get no rematch in the 11th game if we play a north team "OOC"

[Seawolf97]

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/79-college-sports-journal/chuck-burton/222-revolutionary-thinking-to-save-the-caa

Yes, more rumor-mongering! More thoughts on conference realignment! More Patriot League! More CAA! More FCS love! xlolx

That certainly is an impressive cpnference. Play off teams , solid academics alot of room for rivalries. BUT - another shot at wishful thinking. I dont think our leaders in the CAA or PL see the world as we do. This would probably be stronger than the existing CAA -Oh Wellxbawlingx

[Sader87]

Adding scholarships is not the end of the questions for the PL, it only raises new ones.

If the league wanted to become "Ivy Plus" by offering grants, that will certainly help with beating Harvard and Yale until the Ivies begin to scale back their schedules with these teams. If the league wants to compete at the CAA level and above, scholarships alone won't be enough, because JMU, Richmond and W&M can recruit kids that the PL can't touch with its academic index. I-AA schools outside the Ivy and the PL can recruit with the National Letter of Intent, they can redshirt/greenshirt/grayshirt, they can be a lot more aggressive in recruiting. No one at Villlanova or UNH is told by their conference they can only recruit two players with a certain GPA and SAT range.

For this to work, either the PL has to become a lot more like the CAA, or vice versa, and neither is likely.

Psshaw...Holy Cross was able to recruit with scholarships with a de facto AI in the past...they'll be able to do it again. We are THE sleeping giant of the FCS now with scholarships imo (albeit seeing through purple-tinted glasses).

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Psshaw...Holy Cross was able to recruit with scholarships with a de facto AI in the past...they'll be able to do it again. We are THE sleeping giant of the FCS now with scholarships imo (albeit seeing through purple-tinted glasses).

If nothing else Villanova has to be worried now - I imagine a lot of the same recruits would be attracted to both schools, and now HC can compete head to head.

[Sader87]

Holy Cross, with scholarships, immediately goes to the very top-tier of FCS programs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm bumping this up with one question I'd like to pose: is an AI a deal-breaker for this conference?

Personally, I don't believe that an AI would be that big a deal to many of the existing CAA schools - but I don't know if it might be a deal-breaker for others. For example, it's my impression Villanova and New Hampshire's recruiting classes wouldn't change much.

[Doc QB]

Holy Cross, with scholarships, immediately goes to the very top-tier of FCS programs.

Not unless Mark Duffner comes back with the same staff he went 66-5-1 with. Most of those guys are all coaching in the pros now. It was scholarships, great school to sell, AND that staff.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm bumping this up with one question I'd like to pose: is an AI a deal-breaker for this conference?

In general, yes, because it establishes a fixed constraint that does not exist with any other Division I, II, or III conference that is looking to expand (Ivy and NESCAC excepted). Whether it's a the Delaware-W&M-Villanova level, the, St. Francis-Duquesne-Bryant level, or even Davidson and Marist, all these schools are making independent admissions decisions judged to be in the school's best interest, however that is defined. In the PL, that's not acceptable. The conference sets admissions rules based, in no small part, to maintain a perceived need for competitive parity with the Ivy League. Should UNH be forced by its conference to admit football players on a scale (more or less) as Dartmouth? Would it even want to?

No coach or athletic director is going to argue that accepting an arbitrary floor for admissions is anything less than a means of limiting athletic competitiveness, league mission statements notwithstanding. And it bears repeating that none of these other schools put the same fixed admissions floor on any of their other sports, so why should they do it merely to play Patriot football?

An underrated issue discussed on the Lafayette board is the issue regarding redshirting. UNH has 22 redshirt freshmen on its 2012 roster, W&M 23. This is an established means of recruiting at most Division I schools because it allows the coach to develop a five year plan of development for scholarship athletes, i.e., walk-ons are not on the five year plan. Dropping that redshirt option is also a point of concern for these schools. How many of their senior all-CAA stars came through a redshirt program? How many, by the same argument, would not have been senior all-CAA talent if they were done after four years? Or, does the absence of a redshirt program diminish the ability of these schools to develop NFL level talent? Sure PL and Ivy teams can point to a free agent signing here and there, but Delaware fans ask: was Joe Flacco really going to be a first round NFL pick after a 5-6 season as a fourth year junior, or his 8-3 season as a senior? Even Andrew Luck was redshirted at Stanford.

[henfan]

The PL/CAA idea is unworkable on so many levels. Of course the AI would be a deal breaker, as would the disparity in equivalancies between the leagues and redshirting. There's also no reason for either the PL or CAA to surrender their respective automatic bids.

CAA FB's membership shortage is likely to be put to rest in the next 7-10 days, when invitations are extended to new CAA members.

[Go...gate]

Holy Cross, with scholarships, immediately goes to the very top-tier of FCS programs.

I happen to think you are correct. I believe HC is going to become very strong again.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The PL/CAA idea is unworkable on so many levels. Of course the AI would be a deal breaker, as would the disparity in equivalancies between the leagues and redshirting. There's also no reason for either the PL or CAA to surrender their respective automatic bids.

CAA FB's membership shortage is likely to be put to rest in the next 7-10 days, when invitations are extended to new CAA members.

Let's be clear: there would be no disparity in equivalencies. Every school could offer up to 63 of them.

The AI? I happen to think it would be a lot less of an issue than people here think, though DFW thinks it's a definite deal-breaker. With some tweaks, IMO, I think it could work. For example, what if it only involved an AI floor under which no school could recruit, with a standard-deviation off the incoming class, perhaps even doing away with tiers?

Redshirting is a different issue. Unworkable? Hard to say. PL folks haven't had that debate yet. But if redshirting were required to preserve FCS-level football for PL schools (and, by extension, Northeast-level football), would it be worth it?

The irony-o-meter of henfan now trumping the sanctity of conference autobids after arguing for years that autobids don't matter also goes off the charts, incidentally. So I'll throw the argument he's thrown in my face multiple times back at him. In a 16-team superconference like this one, how important is an autobid when such a league would be guaranteed multiple at-large bids to the tournament every year? (Two would be an extremely conservative estimate; most years, it would be easy to see three or four. With an expanded field, five isn't out of the realm of possibility either.)

But ultimately this superconference idea rests on three different ideas.

1) Keeping things regional
2) The sense that from Virginia to Maine, academics play a huge role in FCS football
3) FCS football excellence

I don't think it's THAT impossible to see a world where the CAA accepts a few checks on academics, the PL accepts, say, redshirting - all for FCS excellence, a conference without requiring frequent-flyer miles - and conference stability.

Furthermore, I think folks are seriously underestimating what could happen if, say, JMU bolts tomorrow, or Fordham joins the Big East. All of a sudden, either conference is in crisis mode. Folks who think just keeping things the way they are without being proactive is going to be in for a very unpleasant surprise.

[henfan]

LFN, if if's and but's were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas. So long as the PL clings to the AI and refuses to allow redshirting, your idea is dead in the water. What's the PL's official plan for allowing 63 FB equivalancies?

Look, there's just no compelling reason why CAA FB schools would want or need to put themselves at a recruiting disadvantage nationally for the sake of participating in this Eastern fantasy league. The conference membership situation in CAA FB is nowhere near as critical as you seem to think it is. My guess is that the FCS, particularly in the East, will have much different membership before anything like this is remotely necessary, if it ever comes to pass.

FTR, I've never once maintained that auto bids are insignificant; to the contrary. What I've stated time and again is that conference championships aren't as desirable as playoff bids. Big difference. Conferences with auto bids like the PL and CAA FB aren't simply going to relinquish their auto bids for the sake of combining forces. If membership in either league dropped below the NCAA's threshold, individual members will do whatever they have to do to find homes elsewhere.

There's no evidence that CAA FB or the PL are remotely close to collapsing. For now, the CAA FB is poised to add a couple of members and continue on. The PL will continue to do its own thing into the indefinite future.

A much more realistic possibility would involve CAA FB and PL schools scheduling more non-conference games with each other. That might require PL schools scheduling less games vs. IL opponents. Let's see if that happens.

[MplsBison]

I believe that there is enough talent out there with PL academic credentials to compete with CAA if the economics are leveled. No question that PL will still be at some disadvantage putting a premium on effective recruiting.

I won't buy that until it happens.

There are only X number of kids with Patriot League brains, as is, and Division I capable football bodies - in the nation. Most of these kids are going to schools like Stanford, Northwestern, etc. and not necessarily to play football either or are going to some school strictly for academics.

I'm sure UNH and Villanova recruit pretty good students, maybe even kids with high gpa's in standard classes. But they aren't kids who are getting 4.0 (or 5.0) in a heavy AP courseload, with math club, and can run a 4.5.

Likewise, the Patriot schools are finding kids who have the brains (and now they'll be able to offer them scholarships), but they're a step slower, a couple inches shorter, etc. than the CAA athletes.

[aceinthehole]

LFN, if if's and but's were candy and nuts, everyday would be Christmas. So long as the PL clings to the AI and refuses to allow redshirting, your idea is dead in the water. What's the PL's official plan for allowing 63 FB equivalancies?

Look, there's just no compelling reason why CAA FB schools would want or need to put themselves at a recruiting disadvantage nationally for the sake of participating in this Eastern fantasy league. The conference membership situation in CAA FB is nowhere near as critical as you seem to think it is. My guess is that the FCS, particularly in the East, will have much different membership before anything like this is remotely necessary, if it ever comes to pass.

FTR, I've never once maintained that auto bids are insignificant; to the contrary. What I've stated time and again is that conference championships aren't as desirable as playoff bids. Big difference. Conferences with auto bids like the PL and CAA FB aren't simply going to relinquish their auto bids for the sake of combining forces. If membership in either league dropped below the NCAA's threshold, individual members will do whatever they have to do to find homes elsewhere.

There's no evidence that CAA FB or the PL are remotely close to collapsing. For now, the CAA FB is poised to add a couple of members and continue on. The PL will continue to do its own thing into the indefinite future.

A much more realistic possibility would involve CAA FB and PL schools scheduling more non-conference games with each other. That might require PL schools scheduling less games vs. IL opponents. Let's see if that happens.

I agree with your assessment. But I have 1 question:

Is CAA Football poised to "add a couple of members and continue on," or is it more likely that the CAA will add new members that will bolster CAA Football membership?

[henfan]

I agree with your assessment. But I have 1 question:

Is CAA Football poised to "add a couple of members and continue on," or is it more likely that the CAA will add new members that will bolster CAA Football membership?

Sir, I surely don't know. My personal preference would be that CAA FB membership is enhanced by additions to the CAA, since those added to the latter are guaranteed membership in the former. It might be much tougher to get requisite votes to add schools only to CAA FB, since that requires majority approval by both CAA and CAA FB schools.

I don't think it will happen but it would make sense to dissolve CAA FB and bring it fully under the CAA umbrella. The CAA made a critical mistake when setting up CAA FB when they decided to maintain the legacy membership structure of the former A-10 FB League. If there's any 'revolutionary thinking' that needs to take place, this would be it, IMO.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Sir, I surely don't know. My personal preference would be that CAA FB membership is enhanced by additions to the CAA, since those added to the latter are guaranteed membership in the former. It might be much tougher to get requisite votes to add schools only to CAA FB, since that requires majority approval by both CAA and CAA FB schools.

I don't think it will happen but it would make sense to dissolve CAA FB and bring it fully under the CAA umbrella. The CAA made a critical mistake when setting up CAA FB when they decided to maintain the legacy membership structure of the former A-10 FB League. If there's any 'revolutionary thinking' that needs to take place, this would be it, IMO.

If it's fully under the CAA umbrella, why would Richmond stay? The Spiders aren't exactly the best of friends with those guys.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

LLook, there's just no compelling reason why CAA FB schools would want or need to put themselves at a recruiting disadvantage nationally for the sake of participating in this Eastern fantasy league. The conference membership situation in CAA FB is nowhere near as critical as you seem to think it is. My guess is that the FCS, particularly in the East, will have much different membership before anything like this is remotely necessary, if it ever comes to pass.

How can you say that CAA conference membership isn't at a critical point right now? If George Mason wasn't denied by George Washington membership to the A-10, the CAA might not even exist today.

And it's not like the remaining situation is any less stable. Let's say that Delaware or JMU leaves for the MAC tomorrow - two of the hotter rumors out there. Still think CAA conference membership isn't at a critical point?

No, really, where have you been the last three months?

[aceinthehole]

How can you say that CAA conference membership isn't at a critical point right now? If George Mason wasn't denied by George Washington membership to the A-10, the CAA might not even exist today.

And it's not like the remaining situation is any less stable. Let's say that Delaware or JMU leaves for the MAC tomorrow - two of the hotter rumors out there. Still think CAA conference membership isn't at a critical point?

No, really, where have you been the last three months?

LFN - You are right, the CAA is certainly at a CRITICAL POINT right now regarding its membership, but your suggestion that the CAA might not even exist if Mason left for the A-10 is way off base. In fact, I would argue that if Mason left it would make it almost easier for the CAA to bring on another block of AE schools (possibly all 3 SUNYs and Boston U.) to shore up its ranks.

We know Delware isn't leaving for the MAC tomorrow. The Hens may join a FBS conference in the near future, but it will be their option of last resort. On the other hand, JMU is likely ready, but unable, to move on right now, but even their immediate loss doesn't collapse the CAA Football as a conference. There is likely to enough teams from Big South and NEC that would willing to join CAA football even without UD and JMU. Sure, the CAA might be 'weakened' but the entire landscape of FCS would have changed so dramaticlly, would it really even matter?

[henfan]

If it's fully under the CAA umbrella, why would Richmond stay? The Spiders aren't exactly the best of friends with those guys.

Why wouldn't they? UR participates now in CAA FB because: 1) historic/regional rivals are in the league and 2) there aren't any better options available for a school that desires full scholarship FCS FB. The UR vs. the CAA thing is way overblown, IMO. UR already holds CAA affiliate membership in WGolf. Chuck Boone is the Director of CAA FB Operations.

[henfan]

LFN, when exactly will CAA FB be at a "critical stage"? Certainly not in 2012. ODU & URI are scheduled to depart in 2013. Do you believe that the CAA won't soon be adding new FB members to replace those two programs and will get it done in time for the 2013 season?

I'm not really interested in engaging in 'what if' scenarios. UD and JMU have stated that they are not leaving the CAA and CAA FB. That said, I have no doubt that there will continue to be membership changes in the CAA, just as there are in the rest of D-I. The CAA and CAA FB seem positioned and capable of handling those changes better than many mid-major conferences in the east.

[JMUDuke2002]

LFN - You are right, the CAA is certainly at a CRITICAL POINT right now regarding its membership, but your suggestion that the CAA might not even exist if Mason left for the A-10 is way off base. In fact, I would argue that if Mason left it would make it almost easier for the CAA to bring on another block of AE schools (possibly all 3 SUNYs and Boston U.) to shore up its ranks.

We know Delware isn't leaving for the MAC tomorrow. The Hens may join a FBS conference in the near future, but it will be their option of last resort. On the other hand, JMU is likely ready, but unable, to move on right now, but even their immediate loss doesn't collapse the CAA Football as a conference. There is likely to enough teams from Big South and NEC that would willing to join CAA football even without UD and JMU. Sure, the CAA might be 'weakened' but the entire landscape of FCS would have changed so dramaticlly, would it really even matter?

I agree with this. If the CAA does in up pouching from other leagues, it will just diminish those leagues further. If LU and Stony Brook both leave the Big South, it could lose its AQ and collapse on the football side. The CAA and the SoCon would still be the premier FCS conferences on the East Coast. Plus, the CAA has a pretty nice TV deal to lure potential football schools away. We'll see. But, the CAA is far from collapsing. The Big South should be worried if they lose Stony Brook and LU, and possibly CCU (whose looking).

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Do you believe that the CAA won't soon be adding new FB members to replace those two programs and will get it done in time for the 2013 season? The CAA and CAA FB seem positioned and capable of handling those changes better than many mid-major conferences in the east.

I don't disagree with what you're basically saying. I think the CAA will ultimately be fine, and it seems like there are a lot of potential candidates for joining the CAA. After all, four national champions and a reputation as the leading FCS conference counts.

But you can still have that and still be at a critical juncture in the league. The CAA has never seen the type of change they've experienced this offseason. Pretending that it didn't happen is not realistic to me.

[JMUDuke2002]

I don't disagree with what you're basically saying. I think the CAA will ultimately be fine, and it seems like there are a lot of potential candidates for joining the CAA. After all, four national champions and a reputation as the leading FCS conference counts.

But you can still have that and still be at a critical juncture in the league. The CAA has never seen the type of change they've experienced this offseason. Pretending that they didn't happen is not realistic to me.


Of course they have seen this before -- back in 2001 when ECU, American, and Richmond both left the league and then again when the CAA picked up A-10 football. The CAA is stronger now than it was in 2001, where it was truly near collapse. People are getting in a tizzy right now. JMU fans are naturally upset and nervous, but the conference is much stronger than it was 11 years ago and in a stronger position to accept quality teams. Watch for news next week after the league meeting.

[MplsBison]

One thing is for certain: there are no schools out there to be picked up that have made an investment in football like JMU has.

Does that not concern JMU fans about not only the CAA but FCS in general?

[henfan]

But you can still have that and still be at a critical juncture in the league. The CAA has never seen the type of change they've experienced this offseason. Pretending that it didn't happen is not realistic to me.

I completely acknowledge that there has been significant change. I just happen to believe that the CAA and CAA FB is poised to make moves in fairly short order that will prevent membership from ever reaching a critical stage. To say it's critical now, is jumping the gun, IMO.

IF the CAA can't make the moves I expect them to make, then there will likely be big problems. Not until then, however.

[JMUDuke2002]

Of course we are. I, for one, do not care if JMU stays FCS (and they say as much), but the spending needs to stop then. Otherwise, the schools needs to move up. JMU has invested nearly 75 million in football related facilities alone. The University is also about to drop 88 million on a new BB arena. Really, 88 million? Auburn spent as much recently. JMU's athletic budget is north of 30 million and growing. This is not cost containment athletics. To justify the spending, JMU either needs to move up or stop the spending spree. This is my opinion and the opinion of others. But, many poo poo us that think this.

[MplsBison]

Of course we are. I, for one, do not care if JMU stays FCS (and they say as much), but the spending needs to stop then. Otherwise, the schools needs to move up. JMU has invested nearly 75 million in football related facilities alone. The University is also about to drop 88 million on a new BB arena. Really, 88 million? Auburn spent as much recently. JMU's athletic budget is north of 30 million and growing. This is not cost containment athletics. To justify the spending, JMU either needs to move up or stop the spending spree. This is my opinion and the opinion of others. But, many poo poo us that think this.

Yep, 100%

The stadium you had, with the track around it, was just fine for FCS. The end zone facility and now the huge stadium expansion were absolutely not needed for FCS level football. Those are FBS facilities.

[JMUDuke2002]

Yep, 100%

The stadium you had, with the track around it, was just fine for FCS. The end zone facility and now the huge stadium expansion were absolutely not needed for FCS level football. Those are FBS facilities.

Exactly. This is why I think we'll be gone within 2 to 3 years. The spending alone speaks volume. The admin built half a stadium for 62 million. I love the stadium, don't get me wrong. But, if the goal is the provide a good facility for fans at the FCS level only, then it was complete overkill. That amount could have built a completed stadium that meets the demands of FCS. Actually, less could have been spent and gotten a completed stadium.

[whitey]

The stadium needed to be expanded/updated to meet increased demand but I'm sure there could have been a more economical way to do it if the long term intentions were to stay FCS (no luxury suites, club lounge, gigantic scoreboard, etc.).

[JMUDuke2002]

The stadium needed to be expanded/updated to meet increased demand but I'm sure there could have been a more economical way to do it if the long term intentions were to stay FCS (no luxury suites, club lounge, gigantic scoreboard, etc.).

The stadium did need expanding. But, as you said, if the intention was to stay FCS then it was overkill. SIU built a nice stadium for 25 million. Granted, it seats 15K, but JMU could have done something similar just expanded it more. This is why I think we'll be FBS sooner rather than later. A lot of money has been spent, and the students are tapped out for fees right now.

[MplsBison]

Exactly. This is why I think we'll be gone within 2 to 3 years. The spending alone speaks volume. The admin built half a stadium for 62 million. I love the stadium, don't get me wrong. But, if the goal is the provide a good facility for fans at the FCS level only, then it was complete overkill. That amount could have built a completed stadium that meets the demands of FCS. Actually, less could have been spent and gotten a completed stadium.

Look at Southern Illinois stadium. Sure it's made out of aluminum tinker-toys, but that's all you need at the FCS level.

EDIT: you beat me to it, I didn't read your next post!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/6/5/3064579/morning-mashups-caa-socon-meetings-have-everyone-talking

CAA Hoops has proposed a radical idea: the CAA dropping "sponsorship" of football.

I think that's real unlikely to happen.

[whitey]

Extremely doubtful but the original article on CAAhoops is a pretty interesting thought. Focusing on basketball would be a smart move and from all the quotes we've seen from the CAA office and CAA ADs and coaches it seems that's the priority right now. CAA Football could add teams as affiliate members like Stony Brook, for example, to get back up to 12.

[bluehenbillk]

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/6/5/3064579/morning-mashups-caa-socon-meetings-have-everyone-talking

CAA Hoops has proposed a radical idea: the CAA dropping "sponsorship" of football.

I think that's real unlikely to happen.

That would in essence mean - the end of the CAA as it exists today.

That would leave you with a CAA of the following:

UNC-Wilmington
N'Eastern
Hofstra
Drexel
George Mason

That's 5 schools. Not even enough to have an automatic bid to the NCAA Tourney. And that's a motley crew to begin with - a complete mish-mash of schools, at that point in time I'd see the end of the CAA as a whole versus a re-birth with new schools.

Who would be attracted to that and would those 5 remaining schools want to even stick around?

CAA Hoops didn't think much through at all.

[whitey]

I don't think he was saying that JMU, Delaware, Towson and William & Mary would leave for the AE in all sports. I think he was just recommending those schools move their football programs to the America East to make FCS football that conference's "problem". Those schools would remain in the CAA for all other sports.

[aceinthehole]

I don't think he was saying that JMU, Delaware, Towson and William & Mary would leave for the AE in all sports. I think he was just recommending those schools move their football programs to the America East to make FCS football that conference's "problem". Those schools would remain in the CAA for all other sports.

I read that article to mean that "CAA Football" (formerly the Yankee Conference/A-10 Football) should become "America East Football." It would still have to remain a seperate legal entity, but now it would be administered by the AE.

This doesn't make much sense anyway. Even if CAA Football added Stony Brook and Albany, the AE would still not have a majority of Football members - it would be split 4 each from CAA and AE, and 1 each from the BE and A-10. I don't see what this would do for either conference, or its members, but that's at least how I read his "proposal."

[MplsBison]

A10 didn't want it. Now CAA doesn't want it.

Why would AE want it?

[whitey]

A10 didn't want it. Now CAA doesn't want it.

Why would AE want it?

He has a great blog but is obviously biased towards basketball. This is just wishful thinking on his part.

[henfan]

A10 didn't want it. Now CAA doesn't want it.

Why would AE want it?

Who said the CAA doesn't want football? I wouldn't invest too much stock in a clueless, hoops-mided blogger with a penchant for idle wishing.

The A-10 didn't lose football because they didn't want it. The CAA forced the issue.

The fact remains that the CAA would not exit today if not for football. The promise of football is a primary reason why UD, TU and HU left the AEC. It provided the framework for ODU and GSU to begin their start ups. There would be no national TV contract without football.

As Bill suggested, the CAA would have a difficult time continuing on without football. In fact, I'd argue that the conference would be better served and far more secure if it brought football under the conference umbrella with affiliate members, instead of having it as a separate entity. The CAA also needs to tighten up membership criteria. None of this can or will happen until after the next round of expansion.

[bluehenbillk]

Who said the CAA doesn't want football? I wouldn't invest too much stock in a clueless, hoops-mided blogger with a penchant for idle wishing.

The A-10 didn't lose football because they didn't want it. The CAA forced the issue.

The fact remains that the CAA would not exit today if not for football. The promise of football is a primary reason why UD, TU and HU left the AEC. It provided the framework for ODU and GSU to begin their start ups. There would be no national TV contract without football.

As Bill suggested, the CAA would have a difficult time continuing on without football. In fact, I'd argue that the conference would be better served and far more secure if it brought football under the conference umbrella with affiliate members, instead of having it as a separate entity. The CAA also needs to tighten up membership criteria. None of this can or will happen until after the next round of expansion.

My point exactly, football still drives the bus. I believe UD wants all their sports housed under the same roof, they like the CAA because of that.

[MplsBison]

Who said the CAA doesn't want football? I wouldn't invest too much stock in a clueless, hoops-mided blogger with a penchant for idle wishing.

The A-10 didn't lose football because they didn't want it. The CAA forced the issue.

The fact remains that the CAA would not exit today if not for football. The promise of football is a primary reason why UD, TU and HU left the AEC. It provided the framework for ODU and GSU to begin their start ups. There would be no national TV contract without football.

As Bill suggested, the CAA would have a difficult time continuing on without football. In fact, I'd argue that the conference would be better served and far more secure if it brought football under the conference umbrella with affiliate members, instead of having it as a separate entity. The CAA also needs to tighten up membership criteria. None of this can or will happen until after the next round of expansion.

It's what allowed ODU and GSU to being their startups ...... and then leave for the FBS! Hofstra and Northeastern liked it so much, they dropped their programs!

How long until JMU leaves for FBS? Then how will the move be working out for Delaware and Towson?

[aceinthehole]

Who said the CAA doesn't want football? I wouldn't invest too much stock in a clueless, hoops-mided blogger with a penchant for idle wishing.

The A-10 didn't lose football because they didn't want it. The CAA forced the issue.

The fact remains that the CAA would not exit today if not for football. The promise of football is a primary reason why UD, TU and HU left the AEC. It provided the framework for ODU and GSU to begin their start ups. There would be no national TV contract without football.

As Bill suggested, the CAA would have a difficult time continuing on without football. In fact, I'd argue that the conference would be better served and far more secure if it brought football under the conference umbrella with affiliate members, instead of having it as a separate entity. The CAA also needs to tighten up membership criteria. None of this can or will happen until after the next round of expansion.

How is that hoop-minded blogger much different than football-minded UD fans like yourself?

I mean really, how did football save the CAA? When ECU, American, and Richmond left, the CAA did not sponsor football. UD, Towson and Hofstra left the AE in 2001 - yet the CAA didn't take over A-10 football until Northeastern finally defected.

Do you really think that FCS football is what got the CAA a television deal with NBC Sports? You don't think it has anything to do with 2 Final Four teams in GMU and VCU?

Right now the CAA gets all the advantage of 'administering' the football league, yet it doesn't need to make its conference membership decisions based entirely on football. Why should the CAA bring football under its full control? What advantages does it bring the rest of the league, other than appeasing UD fans?

The reality is the CAA is a crossroads. Does the league strive to be more like the A-10 and MVC, focused on at-large bids for basketball, etc. Or does the league want to be conference with a core of FCS football programs, like the SoCon and Big Sky?

Personally, I'm not suggesting one choice is better than the other, but UD football fans must remember you are now in bed in a league with more basketball-focused schools like NU, Hofstra, Drexel, GMU, UNCW than football peers. Like it or not, that is the reality today, although it can certainly change. The CAA will survive, the question remains what is their long-term strategic focus - basketball or football?

Personally, I tend to think that football needs of CAA schools can be met with the status quo - a separate league and membership focused solely on FCS football (with the CAA brand attached to it) … but we shall see.

[youwouldno]

One error (among others) in the original blogpost is the notion that ODU was "completely comfortable" in the CAA. That is totally false. They added football for the express purpose of moving to FBS. The CAA began a transition stage at that point.

[bluehenbillk]

How is that hoop-minded blogger much different than football-minded UD fans like yourself?

I mean really, how did football save the CAA? When ECU, American, and Richmond left, the CAA did not sponsor football. UD, Towson and Hofstra left the AE in 2001 - yet the CAA didn't take over A-10 football until Northeastern finally defected.

Do you really think that FCS football is what got the CAA a television deal with NBC Sports? You don't think it has anything to do with 2 Final Four teams in GMU and VCU?

Right now the CAA gets all the advantage of 'administering' the football league, yet it doesn't need to make its conference membership decisions based entirely on football. Why should the CAA bring football under its full control? What advantages does it bring the rest of the league, other than appeasing UD fans?

The reality is the CAA is a crossroads. Does the league strive to be more like the A-10 and MVC, focused on at-large bids for basketball, etc. Or does the league want to be conference with a core of FCS football programs, like the SoCon and Big Sky?

Personally, I'm not suggesting one choice is better than the other, but UD football fans must remember you are now in bed in a league with more basketball-focused schools like NU, Hofstra, Drexel, GMU, UNCW than football peers. Like it or not, that is the reality today, although it can certainly change. The CAA will survive, the question remains what is their long-term strategic focus - basketball or football?

Personally, I tend to think that football needs of CAA schools can be met with the status quo - a separate league and membership focused solely on FCS football (with the CAA brand attached to it) … but we shall see.

Good post. Regarding the deal with NBC Sports...keep in mind the Ivy League had/has a similar deal and has had it for a few years, so don't think football played a large role with that....

[henfan]

How is that hoop-minded blogger much different than football-minded UD fans like yourself?

I mean really, how did football save the CAA? When ECU, American, and Richmond left, the CAA did not sponsor football. UD, Towson and Hofstra left the AE in 2001 - yet the CAA didn't take over A-10 football until Northeastern finally defected.

Do you really think that FCS football is what got the CAA a television deal with NBC Sports? You don't think it has anything to do with 2 Final Four teams in GMU and VCU?

Right now the CAA gets all the advantage of 'administering' the football league, yet it doesn't need to make its conference membership decisions based entirely on football. Why should the CAA bring football under its full control? What advantages does it bring the rest of the league, other than appeasing UD fans?

The reality is the CAA is a crossroads. Does the league strive to be more like the A-10 and MVC, focused on at-large bids for basketball, etc. Or does the league want to be conference with a core of FCS football programs, like the SoCon and Big Sky?

Ace, the CAA was dead in the water in August of 2000 because they did not have football. The CAA was within a single AEC vote of getting absorbed by that conference, which would have delivered FB to the AEC. It was at this point in time that the CAA realized that they could save their hide by inviting UD, TU and HU and making a play for A-10 FB. Once those 3 schools moved (along with DU), the FB league was pretty much fait accompli. UD, TU and HU moved with the clear intentions that the CAA would deliver FB and soon, which they did when NU was invited.

Of course CAA FB played a role in the NBCSports deal, as did the strong CAA MBB conference. As evidence, CAA FB will indeed receive coverage on NBCSports, which would not be happening if it did not add real value. NBC is running a business, not a charity.

It would just be a good business decision for the CAA to bring FB under it conference umbrella while, at the same time, tightening some of its membership rules. For example, as membership rules are now, schools without any other ties to the CAA (UMaine, UNH, UR or VU) could jeapordize the FB league by suddenly withdrawing and it would be incumbent upon the CAA to find replacements, assuming they could. Conversely, the balance of the CAA could be jeapordized if UD, TU, JMU and W&M left, all the while leaving their FB teams in CAA FB. It probably would have made decisions like dropping FB much more difficult for HU and NU, if their Olympic sport programs faced expulsion from the CAA. At present, the conference just makes it too easy for schools to leave or do whatever the heck they please. That's the problem the CAA and CAA FB are going to continue to face as they move forward even if they somehow consolidate the two entities.

The damage has already been done, I'm afraid. There can be no "strategic focus" with the group of schools that currently comprise the CAA. Of course, that can be said of many other mid-major conferences as well.

[aceinthehole]

Ace, the CAA was dead in the water in August of 2000 because they did not have football. The CAA was within a single AEC vote of getting absorbed by that conference, which would have delivered FB to the AEC. It was at this point in time that the CAA realized that they could save their hide by inviting UD, TU and HU and making a play for A-10 FB. Once those 3 schools moved (along with DU), the FB league was pretty much fait accompli. UD, TU and HU moved with the clear intentions that the CAA would deliver FB and soon, which they did when NU was invited.

Maybe that's what UD was hoping for, but it was by no means a done deal. The decision making at that time just doesn't fully support your argument that "football saved the CAA."

In Fall of 2000, the AE-4 agreed to join the CAA for the 2001-02 season. At that time, the CAA was desperate to keep its AQ in basketball and other sports - football was a complete afterthought.


AMERICA EAST PLAYS WAITING GAME
[THIRD Edition]

Boston Globe - Boston, Mass.
Author: Mark Blaudschun, Globe Staff
Date: Oct 21, 2000
Start Page: G.8
Section: Sports
Text Word Count: 328

Abstract (Document Summary)
Expansion is the way CAA officials are leaning now. In the next two weeks, they are expected to extend formal invitations to Delaware, Hofstra, Drexel, and Towson, all members of America East.

Hofstra is struggling with a football issue. As a 1-AA independent, Hofstra needs a league. It has the option of putting together a new league with Delaware, CAA members James Madison and William & Mary, and two other schools yet to be determined. Or it could push to become part of the A-10 in football. CAA officials have said football is not the top priority. http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/62819587.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Oct+21%2C+2000&author=Mark+Blaudschun%2C+Globe+Staff&pub=Boston+Globe&desc=AMERICA+EAST+PLAYS+WAITING+GAME&pqatl=google

Not until Spring 2005, was the CAA able to wrestle football sponsorship from the A-10. It was accomplsihed as a "hostile takeover," finally achived with the assitance of Northeastern's defection from the AE. The CAA would not officially start football until Fall 2007 - a full 7 years since UD and the others first announced they were joining the CAA.


A-10 FOOTBALL IS SACKED SCHOOLS WILL BOLD FOR CAA IN 2007[FIRST Edition]

Boston Globe - Boston, Mass.
Date: May 5, 2005
Start Page: C.2
Section: Sports
Text Word Count: 417

Abstract (Document Summary)
In this case, the CAA had more juice. "Basically a hostile takeover," said one A-10 official, who watched the battle between the leagues unfold.

The new CAA football conference will include Delaware, Hofstra, James Madison, Maine, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, Northeastern, Rhode Island, Richmond, Towson, Villanova, and William & Mary. The teams will compete in the A-10 in 2005 and 2006, and become the CAA in 2007. Five A-10 football schools already compete in the CAA in other sports.
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/boston/access/833781601.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=May+05%2C+2005&author=&pub=Boston+Globe&desc=A-10+FOOTBALL+IS+SACKED+SCHOOLS+WILL+BOLD+FOR+CAA+IN +2007&pqatl=google


Philadelphia Inquirer - May 5, 2005 - D08 SPORTS

All A-10 teams will join CAA in football, The 12 schools, including Villanova and Delaware, will enter the conference in the 2007 season.
Beginning in 2007, all 12 Atlantic Ten Conference football teams will switch to a Division I-AA league that has been formed by the Colonial Athletic Association. The announcement was made yesterday in Richmond, Va. "We're out of the football business as of 2007," said Ray Cella, an assistant commissioner of the A-10. "We would have preferred that things stayed the same, but we understand. There were schools that wanted to change...
http://nl.newsbank.com/nl-search/we/Archives?p_product=PI&s_site=philly&p_multi=PI&p_theme=realcities&p_action=search&p_maxdocs=200&p_topdoc=1&p_text_direct-0=109F0CA2B369840B&p_field_direct-0=document_id&p_perpage=10&p_sort=YMD_date:D&s_trackval=GooglePM

[UAalum72]

http://www.albany.edu/Images/Header/University-at-Albany-logo.gif
#86 not yet assigned, so I'll give it to incoming freshman
Cameron Lewis # 86
http://www.ncsasports.org/seoj/system/client_photos/athlete_17225_profile.jpg

Wide Receiver

Height: 5-9 Weight: 175

Freshman

Previous Affiliations Robert E. Lee HS

Hometown Springfield, VA

High school: He was named First-Team All-Patriot Conference after recording 48 receptions for 700 yards, and also returned two punts for touchdowns. Born: May 23, 1994. 40 time 4.5...named to the All-American Team in track and field for AAU sports as a freshman and carried a 3.34 GPA at Robert E. Lee High School

[aceinthehole]

My point exactly, football still drives the bus. I believe UD wants all their sports housed under the same roof, they like the CAA because of that.

Yes, football may "drive the bus" at UD, but that doesn't mean that the CAA, as a league, has the same motivations.

It is true that UD, Towson, and Hofstra wanted the AE to sponsor football and would have likely remained in the league if they did. You could also argue that when the AE balked at the proposed merger with the CAA, it gave those schools a wandering eye with hopes of joining (or building) a league that would sponsor all its sports, including football.

However, from the CAA's perspective their expansion plans were simple - save the league and its AQ in basketball and other sports. The AE may have been more susceptible for picking because of their internal football/basketball rift, but let's also remember that the CAA targeted the 4 closest schools to their footprint (conversely, these were the AE's 4 most Southern schools). It obviously helped the CAA's expansion plans that that Drexel, UD, and Hostra had combined to win 9 out of the AE's last 10 men's basketball championships. For the CAA, that 2001 xpansion was about survival and basketball.

I think it would be more accurate to say that by adding the AE-4 back in 2001, it was geography and basketball that saved the CAA, not football.

[MplsBison]

Maybe the more accurate statement is that Delaware wanted, more than anything, to have a single conference for all its sports so it bribed the CAA with joining in basketball (thus saving the CAA auto-bid) in turn for the CAA ripping the Yankee football administration duties away from the A10, so it could appear to most people that UD simply was "in the CAA for all sports"?

Just an idea.


So then, wouldn't it be fitting if the final dagger was driven through the CAA's chest by Delaware leaving for the MAC or WAC to pursue FBS football? It would be like the FCS version of Florida State leaving the ACC to join the Big XII.

[henfan]

Ace, I'm well aware of the timeline. I appreciate your retrospective rundown but I'd venture to say that I am much more attuned to the events surrounding my school's arrival in the CAA, having lived and breathed it while it transpired.

There was indeed more than "hope" (as you classified it) that the CAA would have FB that drove UD, HU and TU to leave the AEC. After the Sept. 2000 AEC vote, it became clear to the group that the AEC was NEVER going to agree to sponsor the sport. I was told directly from our former AD that the CAA made a firm commitment to UD, (and I'd assume TU & HU) that a CAA FB league would would be the top priority and would be addressed by the league in the next expansion. Of course, that did indeed come to pass. The CAA knew that they would not be able to attract the schools without the promise of FB and would not retain them unless they delivered on the promise.

So, yes, the promise of football did indeed prove to be THE driving force behind the move for UD (and presumably TU & HU). More succinctly, the desire to play all sports under a single umbrella was the primary goal, but FB was the missing link that drove them to the CAA. Without that firm commitment from the CAA, those schools weren't going to move from the AEC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ace, the CAA was dead in the water in August of 2000 because they did not have football. The CAA was within a single AEC vote of getting absorbed by that conference, which would have delivered FB to the AEC. It was at this point in time that the CAA realized that they could save their hide by inviting UD, TU and HU and making a play for A-10 FB. Once those 3 schools moved (along with DU), the FB league was pretty much fait accompli. UD, TU and HU moved with the clear intentions that the CAA would deliver FB and soon, which they did when NU was invited.

I seem to recall that a key part of Yeager's long-term strategy, even back then, was to pursue A-10 football and have it be a part of the CAA. It's the separation of the football and the "rest of the conference" side of the house that I never really fully understood. Maybe it had to be that way in order to keep the A-10 schools around, I'm not sure.

Interestingly, CAA football will comprise of four full members (UD, Towson, W&M, JMU), one Big East member (Nova), two AE members (UNH and Maine), and one A-10 member (Richmond). If even one of those full-time members of the CAA leave the conference and go to FBS, you have to wonder what will happen with everyone else. Their identity as "CAA football" would certainly be in jeopardy.

[henfan]

Yes, football may "drive the bus" at UD, but that doesn't mean that the CAA, as a league, has the same motivations.

It is true that UD, Towson, and Hofstra wanted the AE to sponsor football and would have likely remained in the league if they did. You could also argue that when the AE balked at the proposed merger with the CAA, it gave those schools a wandering eye with hopes of joining (or building) a league that would sponsor all its sports, including football.

However, from the CAA's perspective their expansion plans were simple - save the league and its AQ in basketball and other sports. The AE may have been more susceptible for picking because of their internal football/basketball rift, but let's also remember that the CAA targeted the 4 closest schools to their footprint (conversely, these were the AE's 4 most Southern schools). It obviously helped the CAA's expansion plans that that Drexel, UD, and Hostra had combined to win 9 out of the AE's last 10 men's basketball championships. For the CAA, that 2001 xpansion was about survival and basketball.

I think it would be more accurate to say that by adding the AE-4 back in 2001, it was geography and basketball that saved the CAA, not football.

Ace, UD did not suddenly develop a wandering eye when the AEC takeover plan failed. They had long desired to play all of their sports in a single conference, including FB. UD had made their intentions known when the AEC was called the NAC but the league could never make it happen. In fact, there was a failed CAA expansion plan in Spring 2000 that would have brought UD, Furman, the Citadel, Wofford, VMI and others into the conference and created a CAA FB league. There's much more history involved with the CAA's efforts with FB than you seem to realize.

[henfan]

I seem to recall that a key part of Yeager's long-term strategy, even back then, was to pursue A-10 football and have it be a part of the CAA. It's the separation of the football and the "rest of the conference" side of the house that I never really fully understood. Maybe it had to be that way in order to keep the A-10 schools around, I'm not sure.

Interestingly, CAA football will comprise of four full members (UD, Towson, W&M, JMU), one Big East member (Nova), two AE members (UNH and Maine), and one A-10 member (Richmond). If even one of those full-time members of the CAA leave the conference and go to FBS, you have to wonder what will happen with everyone else. Their identity as "CAA football" would certainly be in jeopardy.

LFN, good perspective.

IMO, the CAA felt the path of least resistance was to simply continuing administering the FB league in the same way that the A-10 did with similar structure and bylaws. I have no idea if they would have received any pushback from the non-CAA schools if the FB league was initially brought under the CAA's umbrella, as opposed to having it set up as a separate entity.

I do know that individual invitations to CAA FB were sent out to UMaine, UNH, UMass, URI, VU and RU. The CAA schools (NU, HU, UD, TU, JMU and W&M) were automatically afforded CAA FB membership. Every school except UR accepted the initial invitations to become charter members of CAA FB.

[aceinthehole]

Ace, I'm well aware of the timeline. I appreciate your retrospective rundown but I'd venture to say that I am much more attuned to the events surrounding my school's arrival in the CAA, having lived and breathed it while it transpired.

There was indeed more than "hope" (as you classified it) that the CAA would have FB that drove UD, HU and TU to leave the AEC. After the Sept. 2000 AEC vote, it became clear to the group that the AEC was NEVER going to agree to sponsor the sport. I was told directly from our former AD that the CAA made a firm commitment to UD, (and I'd assume TU & HU) that a CAA FB league would would be the top priority and would be addressed by the league in the next expansion. Of course, that did indeed come to pass. The CAA knew that they would not be able to attract the schools without the promise of FB and would not retain them unless they delivered on the promise.

So, yes, the promise of football did indeed prove to be THE driving force behind the move for UD (and presumably TU & HU). More succinctly, the desire to play all sports under a single umbrella was the primary goal, but FB was the missing link that drove them to the CAA. Without that firm commitment from the CAA, those schools weren't going to move from the AEC.

I know you have much tons of insight on UD's perspective on these matters as they happened and yes, UD's desire to have one league host all its sports was likely the #1 motivating factor in the move. I am not disputing that at all. I also know AE school did not want to sponsor football, period. And yes, without that assurance from the CAA, there was no good reason for UD to leave the AE.

However, the fact remains it took 7 years for the CAA to actually take control of football (and hence deliver on their 'promise' to UD, et al) and they needed a second expansion (NU in 2005) to accomplish it. It wasn't as clean and easy as you seem to suggest. And now, the CAA football league is split evenly with non-CAA members. Football as a CAA-administered sport is at a key decision point.

Furthermore, today the CAA has just 4 members that play football and 5 members that don't. The AE has 4 members that play football in 3 different conferences. Why are you, as a fan, so sure that GMU, UNCW, Hofstra, NU, won't act just like UVM and Hartford did back in 2000? And again, why is it so important to bring football under the full and direct control of the CAA (not as a separately administered organization)?

I'm just trying to have a conversation and suggest that anything is only the table for the CAA, that's all.

[DFW HOYA]

Has anyone offered to broker the idea of reconfiguring the CAA with (scholarship) football teams and leave the A-10 to non-football or non-scholarship schools, which would leave a future alignment that could be the following:

A-10 (14): Butler, Dayton*, Drexel, Hofstra, George Mason, George Washington, LaSalle, Northeastern, St. Bonaventure, St. Joseph's, St. Louis, UNC-Wilmington, VCU, Xavier

CAA (12): Albany, Duquesne, Delaware, Fordham*, Maine, New Hampshire, Richmond, Rhode Island, Stony Brook, VMI, William & Mary, Towson

[henfan]

Ace, the CAA delivered on their promise of FB to UD & the others in less than 4 years, not 7. The 4 former AEC schools did not officially join the CAA until Sept. 2001 and the FB deal was announced in May 2005. Point taken that FB was not immediate but no one ever suggested that it would be. There was an implicit agreement that it would happen ASAP and it was a condition of UD's move from the AEC to the CAA.

To clarify, I didn't suggest that the CAA's wresting control of A-10 FB was clean or easy, rather I indicated that FB played a large role in the continued existence of the CAA and continues to do so to this day.

I also never said that I was certain that the CAA's non football playing members will welcome more FB additions, over what I think would be very poor, marginal, single sport adds like Davidson. However, I believe if those schools do act as short-sighted as UVm, BU & Hartford did in 2000, they could very well be left holding the bag in a very depleted Olympic sport conference. Goodbye CAA FB, LAX and mutiple NCAA Olympic sport bids.

All of that said, I'm still hopeful that the CAA will do the right thing to strengthen both the Olympic sport and FB leagues. The CAA is in a much better position right now than leagues like the AEC, NEC, Big South and SoCon, who stand to suffer key losses in the next round of CAA expansion.

[aceinthehole]

Ace, the CAA delivered on their promise of FB to UD & the others in less than 4 years, not 7. The 4 former AEC schools did not officially join the CAA until Sept. 2001 and the FB deal was announced in May 2005. Point taken that FB was not immediate but no one ever suggested that it would be. There was an implicit agreement that it would happen ASAP and it was a condition of UD's move from the AEC to the CAA.

To clarify, I didn't suggest that the CAA's wresting control of A-10 FB was clean or easy, rather I indicated that FB played a large role in the continued existence of the CAA and continues to do so to this day.

I also never said that I was certain that the CAA's non football playing members will welcome more FB additions, over what I think would be very poor, marginal, single sport adds like Davidson. However, I believe if those schools do act as short-sighted as UVm, BU & Hartford did in 2000, they could very well be left holding the bag in a very depleted Olympic sport conference. Goodbye CAA FB, LAX and mutiple NCAA Olympic sport bids.

All of that said, I'm still hopeful that the CAA will do the right thing to strengthen both the Olympic sport and FB leagues. The CAA is in a much better position right now than leagues like the AEC, NEC, Big South and SoCon, who stand to suffer key losses in the next round of CAA expansion.

OK, Delaware didn't join the CAA until September 2001, but by that same timeline the CAA didn't take over A-10 football officially until Fall 2007. The point is, we both agree it wasn't an immediate, clean, or easy transition for the CAA to acquire FB. UD was given "implicit agreement" regarding CAA football, however that was only an clearly understood expectation, not a formal condition, of UD's move to the CAA.

Bottom line, I agree that, for now, the CAA is in a much better position than the AEC, NEC, Big South and SoCon, however that can change in short order. For example, I suspect the SoCon's recently approved changes to their basketball conference schedule and tournament may have stabilized that conference from potential defections to the CAA. If that is the case, I would expect the CAA to move its sight to the AE and Big South.

Personally, I’m look forward to the CAA’s next move in this chess match, because it will likely reveal a lot about the direction of the East Coast mid-major conference realignment.

[fc97]

i wouldnt be so sure. charleston and elon are still two schools with heavy ties to the northeast. and despite the changes, elon, davidson and charleston still were three schools that were iffy on any vote. that seems to show some direction that still has not been published.

davidson may end up staying but the other two have no guarantees. elon and charleston also have very good relationships with uncw.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bottom line, I agree that, for now, the CAA is in a much better position than the AEC, NEC, Big South and SoCon, however that can change in short order. For example, I suspect the SoCon's recently approved changes to their basketball conference schedule and tournament may have stabilized that conference from potential defections to the CAA. If that is the case, I would expect the CAA to move its sight to the AE and Big South.

Funny how many are bringing this up, yet the fact that VCU basically had guaranteed home-court advantage through the playoffs and ODU hosted a slew of different championships meant nothing to them when it came time to decide on moving.

Personally, I see it as a sign of weakness in their membership - that someone is definitely targeting them.

[DFW HOYA]

In the simplest of terms, the decisions by VCU and ODU to move were as follows:

1. VCU: "'Shaka, how about the A-10'? 'Sounds good to me'."

2. ODU saw a huge upside to adding football (instant sellouts, fundraising jump, etc.) and saw that they could leverage itself as the major college team for the Tidewater if there was interest from another league. Think of the jump ECU made when it left the SoCon, and it is not unrealistic to see ODU playing before 40,000 a game in the next decade, either at a vastly renovated Foreman or a new stadium where the Powhatan field is now.

[youwouldno]

A conference isn't "weak" because its members interest other conferences. That's pretty much the opposite of being weak. It may be unstable, if enough members are considering moves. There is no actual evidence that any SoCon school is close to a move, though of course App St. and GSU would like to move to an FBS football conference.

[aceinthehole]

Funny how many are bringing this up, yet the fact that VCU basically had guaranteed home-court advantage through the playoffs and ODU hosted a slew of different championships meant nothing to them when it came time to decide on moving.

Personally, I see it as a sign of weakness in their membership - that someone is definitely targeting them.

I wouldn't use VCU as a comparison. VCU's move from the CAA to the A-10 was seen as a major "move up" for basketball by the media and public at large. The A-10 is perceived and marketed as the highest level basketball conference outside of the current BCS conferences. Getting 2 recent Final Four teams in Butler and VCU likely cemented the A-10 in that position for a while.

I do agree that the changes to the SoCon were meant to strengthen the league against possible defections. The fact that SoCon teams are being targeted by the CAA is a well-known fact and was confirmed by the CAA commissioner. I have no idea on what effect those changes to the schedule and tournament will have on any of the schools contemplating a move to the CAA.

But yes, I think one very big question remains - is the CAA a better home for some of the current SoCon teams, and are any of these schools willing to make the move? I have no idea, as I don't know much about the history or dynamics of the SoCon and its members.

[whitey]

A conference isn't "weak" because its members interest other conferences. That's pretty much the opposite of being weak. It may be unstable, if enough members are considering moves. There is no actual evidence that any SoCon school is close to a move, though of course App St. and GSU would like to move to an FBS football conference.

100% agree. The CAA didn't lose teams because it's weak. It's losing teams because the conference has been very successful. Talk about being victims of your own success.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

#CCU AD Hunter Yurachek said talk of possible conference affiliation change has "run its course for this year" and "died down" for now.

Sounds like whatever's in play, Coastal isn't a part of the CAA's plans.

[whitey]

Sounds like whatever's in play, Coastal isn't a part of the CAA's plans.

Guess they still need more dogs.

[Longhorn]

http://www.midmajormadness.com/2012/6/5/3064579/morning-mashups-caa-socon-meetings-have-everyone-talking

CAA Hoops has proposed a radical idea: the CAA dropping "sponsorship" of football.

I think that's real unlikely to happen.

That article cited is perhaps the most inane bit of speculation I've read yet on possible realignments. There's not a snowball's chance in hell that the CAA will drop football. Nor is it likely that announced invitations/additions to the CAA will come later rather than sooner.

Furthermore...this isn't a zero-sum game...basketball vs. football. There's no reason the CAA can not move to strengthen both sports, as well as other sports like LAX and baseball.

[Seawolf97]

As a convincer for the CAA StonyBrook Baseball knocked off LSU earlier today 3-1 and tied the Baton Rouge Super regional at 1-1. One more win and SBU advances to the CWS as this years magical ride continues . We beat their best pitcher drafted 4th in the 1st round Kevin Gausman. The momentum has shifted just a bit.

[MplsBison]

As a convincer for the CAA StonyBrook Baseball knocked off LSU earlier today 3-1 and tied the Baton Rouge Super regional at 1-1. One more win and SBU advances to the CWS as this years magical ride continues . We beat their best pitcher drafted 4th in the 1st round Kevin Gausman. The momentum has shifted just a bit.

If only college baseball meant something in most conferences...

[crossfire07]

Good Luck to Stony Brook.

[fc97]

college baseball means a lot, just like college ice hockey means a lot. both are easily the number 3/4 slots of college sports

just because your team sucks doesnt mean you need to dump on the whole sport

seriously, what does this thread have to do with ndsu anyway, it's as bad as appst fans posting here.

[melloware13]

seriously, what does this thread have to do with ndsu anyway, it's as bad as appst fans posting here.

At least App St. has been mentioned in an occasional article about the CAA

[fc97]

thats true

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dick Vitale just called Stony Brook, who just qualified for the College World Series, as "the Butler [Bulldogs] of baseball".

Doesn't mean anything, huh?

[DFW HOYA]

Did Vitale say the same thing about Loyola winning the NCAA lacrosse championship? Probably not.

[asumike83]

I think he just meant that it does not mean anything to conferences in terms of realignment. I love college baseball but in terms of what a conference is looking for in a member, baseball is an afterthought for the most part unless you have a really dominant program.

[danefan]

I think he just meant that it does not mean anything to conferences in terms of realignment. I love college baseball but in terms of what a conference is looking for in a member, baseball is an afterthought for the most part unless you have a really dominant program.

Positive face time on ESPN means a lot though. ESPN promotes the heck out of the CWS. I would say that ESPN ranks the CWS as the third most important NCAA event of the year behind all things FBS football and March Madness.

[MplsBison]

Positive face time on ESPN means a lot though. ESPN promotes the heck out of the CWS. I would say that ESPN ranks the CWS as the third most important NCAA event of the year behind all things FBS football and March Madness.

Right. Just like that $15 refund check you got in the mail was the third most important check you received last year, after your paychecks and your tax return check.

[MplsBison]

And for the record, when the ball hits the bat and the sound is *PING*, the channel is changed. Let me know when the sound changes to *THWACK*

[PantherRob82]

And for the record, when the ball hits the bat and the sound is *PING*, the channel is changed. Let me know when the sound changes to *THWACK*

I'd rather it was wood too, but I understand why it's not. I play in a wood bat league and we easily go through a bat or two a game. Gets expensive.

[MplsBison]

I'd rather it was wood too, but I understand why it's not. I play in a wood bat league and we easily go through a bat or two a game. Gets expensive.

This was already address in another thread. Wouldn't be a problem.

Coaches just get too many kick-backs from metal bat contracts to ever vote for it. They figure whatever team wins the CWS, those are the bats that every little leaguer with no talent is going to make their parents buy them for Xmas.

[asumike83]

Positive face time on ESPN means a lot though. ESPN promotes the heck out of the CWS. I would say that ESPN ranks the CWS as the third most important NCAA event of the year behind all things FBS football and March Madness.

Absolutely, if you can make it to Omaha then it is a huge selling point for your program. Unfortunately, college baseball gets very little coverage until then so having just a 'good' baseball program does not help much.

As for the metal bat issue, it is complicated but costs are a big factor. The aluminum bat companies have contracts that give a lot of funding to the programs. Subsidizing the added costs of wooden bats and getting those contracts with wood bat companies is much easier said than done. From a financial standpoint, switching to wood bats, giving up the contracts with aluminum bat companies and footing the bill for the costs of wood bats out of pocket would not fly.

A couple years old but here is an article on the prospect of switching to wood bats: http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/baseball/news?slug=kr-batdebate100710


Serrano believes MLB could get more involved in Division I baseball and help subsidize the cost of bats. In turn, he says, it would give MLB scouts a better idea of what to expect going into the draft without having to evaluate players only in wood-bat summer leagues.

Mainieri isn’t buying that idea.

“Players are getting plenty of time with wood during the summer,” he said. “If a scout can’t determine the value of a player with an aluminum bat versus a wooden bat, who really cares? That would be an excuse and quite frankly isn’t something that we should worry about.”

The reluctance to move to wood also is the result of coaches’ lucrative contracts with aluminum bat companies. There is a prevailing thought that these contracts could shift from aluminum to wood bat companies.

That could be difficult, though. Aluminum bat companies essentially have free advertising when teams get to Omaha, and they’re mainly marketing to high school and youth league kids by giving bats to college teams. Wood bat companies would have less marketing incentive. There also would be salary ramifications because some coaches are paid more a year by bat companies than they are by their colleges.

[whitey]

@ MarkRSelig
#CAA Presidents will meet tomorrow in D.C. to discuss/vote on potential changes such as exit fee raise, tourney participation, scheduling.


@ MarkRSelig
Tom Yeager said CAA is making progress in terms of expansion; won't discuss publicly. Said he's confident league will add team(s) in summer.

Looks like we might hear something soon, possibly in the next few weeks.

[fc97]

the word i am hearing is college of charleston, elon, stony brook and boston university

[aceinthehole]

the word i am hearing is college of charleston, elon, stony brook and boston university

Sounds like a Big East-esq type compromise. 2 FB schools/2 basketball schools. 2 from the North/2 from the South.

Who would that would 'hurt' more - America East or the SoCon?

If those 4 schools do join the CAA, I would suspect that the SoCon looks to the Big South and the AE looks at the NEC.

Then if the SoCon took Liberty and/or Coastal (combined with SBU to the CAA), the Big South would likely lose its football AQ.

The AE will likely take Quinnipiac to replace Boston and who knows what they do after that.

[MplsBison]

I thought AGS decided that Hofstra and Northeastern are in a voting bloc with Drexel against adding SBU and BU?

[Pitz]

Looks like we might hear something soon, possibly in the next few weeks.

Possibly as soon as Wednesday...

[danefan]

I thought AGS decided that Hofstra and Northeastern are in a voting bloc with Drexel against adding SBU and BU?

Only time will tell.

There's rumor and conjecture flying all around. On the AEast boards, the SBU fans are saying they haven't even had any kind of visit.

Also saying that BU does have an offer, but they'd rather be in the A10 and are exploring that option.

Who knows.

[Go...gate]

I'd rather it was wood too, but I understand why it's not. I play in a wood bat league and we easily go through a bat or two a game. Gets expensive.

What does a good wood baseball bat cost these days?

[MplsBison]

What does a good wood baseball bat cost these days?

Depends how good of quality. The cheaper ones that I'm sure Rob's team uses break far more easily than the professional level wood bats used in MLB.

[whitey]

the word i am hearing is college of charleston, elon, stony brook and boston university

The CAA is as 9 teams right now. I'd find it odd if the CAA goes to 13, an odd number. This would be problematic for basketball scheduling purposes. Perhaps CofC or Boston are ready to commit to the CAA for 2012-13 which brings the conference back to 12 teams for that academic year and a 5th school will be invited prior to the 2013-2014 season.

[whitey]

Article on what's on tap for today: http://www.dailypress.com/sports/dp-spt-caa-prez-meetings-20120611,0,1807466.story


Yeager, en route to the presidents' meeting in Washington, D.C., again would not publicly discuss or identify possible expansion targets. But he said back-channel discussions have taken place for weeks to gauge interest from both sides.

Yeager said that the conference plans to move "pretty quickly" on expansion, but doesn't expect decisions to be made until later in the month.


Yeager said that Tuesday's meeting is likely to be split evenly between membership and expansion, and what he referred to as "housekeeping" topics that came up at last week's athletic directors' and coaches' meetings in Hilton Head, S.C.


Yeager said that the presidents also are likely to consider means to assist potential new members. Both VCU and Old Dominion are leaving NCAA basketball tournament money on the table in their departures. In VCU's case, it's approximately $5 million total under the NCAA's revenue distribution plan.

"The new schools will have financial obligations with their present conferences and entry obligations," Yeager said. "We want to make that as uncomplicated as we can, particularly in that transition year. If you're talking exit fees and entry fees all at once, in one budget year, those can be huge expenses."

[NHwildEcat]

What does a good wood baseball bat cost these days?

I don't know exact figures but I don't belive it is much more than what these schools pay for the fake bats they play with now. My alma mater players in the D2 Northeast-10 conference and they play all conference games with wood bats and it doesn't seem like that great of an expense. The quality is better too, it is baseball. Artificial bats are just that, fake and not nearly as pleasing to watch.

[NHwildEcat]

Sounds like a Big East-esq type compromise. 2 FB schools/2 basketball schools. 2 from the North/2 from the South.

Who would that would 'hurt' more - America East or the SoCon?

If those 4 schools do join the CAA, I would suspect that the SoCon looks to the Big South and the AE looks at the NEC.

Then if the SoCon took Liberty and/or Coastal (combined with SBU to the CAA), the Big South would likely lose its football AQ.

The AE will likely take Quinnipiac to replace Boston and who knows what they do after that.

It would hurt both, but it could kill of the AE entirely. BU & SBU are great members for all sports. Quinnipiac from what I have heard is already in the mix to move to the AE, no matter what BU & SBU do.

[NHwildEcat]

This was already address in another thread. Wouldn't be a problem.

Coaches just get too many kick-backs from metal bat contracts to ever vote for it. They figure whatever team wins the CWS, those are the bats that every little leaguer with no talent is going to make their parents buy them for Xmas.

Yup...the metal bats make crappy players good, while watching someone with a wood bat will tell you if they are for real. You can hit a damn homerun off of the handle on those metal bats, they are a joke.

[MplsBison]

The CAA is as 9 teams right now. I'd find it odd if the CAA goes to 13, an odd number. This would be problematic for basketball scheduling purposes. Perhaps CofC or Boston are ready to commit to the CAA for 2012-13 which brings the conference back to 12 teams for that academic year and a 5th school will be invited prior to the 2013-2014 season.

Perhaps they're planning on losing JMU?

[whitey]

Perhaps they're planning on losing JMU?

Not sure on JMU but yeah it could be the CAA is going to add four teams now and if necessary add a 5th prior to the 2013-14 season if there are no further defections. Or stand pat at 12 if another school departs at that point.

[henfan]

Hopefully the CAA CEO's will understand that they've got a brand (if not a conference) to protect and develop. In order for CAA membership to mean anything, they've got to begin playing hardball with departing members. It's just an unfortunate order of business. If it means that ODU doesn't get to compete for FB conference championships or as an affiliate member for other sports, so be it. That will send a clear message that the league is serious about attracting schools who are truly invested in the best interests of the collective conference and aren't just looking to protect their own hides.

I also think at some point the CAA needs to bring the football league fully under the domain of the conference. This isn't something that can be done now but they conference had better take it seriously if they want the FB league to survive long term.

[asumike83]

Yup...the metal bats make crappy players good, while watching someone with a wood bat will tell you if they are for real. You can hit a damn homerun off of the handle on those metal bats, they are a joke.

Not with the new bats they are using now. I like wood bats much better as well but the changes in the bat specifications prior to the 2011 season requires the players to use bats without alloy and a smaller 'sweet spot' that is only about 3 inches long so that players can no longer hit rockets off the end of the bat and on the hands. It has made a difference, too. Games are shorter, less runs are being scored and there is no longer that loud 'ping' when the ball is hit.

I'd like to see D1 college go to wood bats but I'm not sure it will happen. The coaches have contracts with aluminum bat companies because they are basically giving free advertising to all the high school and youth leagues, while the wood bat companies would have no reason to sign similar contracts. There was talk about subsidizing the additional cost of wood bats and having the MLB pick up the tab and in return, get a better evaluation of college talent. However, with all the wood bat summer leagues out there, they can get a good evaluation of a player already and are unlikely to foot the bill.

[NHwildEcat]

Not with the new bats they are using now. I like wood bats much better as well but the changes in the bat specifications prior to the 2011 season requires the players to use bats without alloy and a smaller 'sweet spot' that is only about 3 inches long so that players can no longer hit rockets off the end of the bat and on the hands. It has made a difference, too. Games are shorter, less runs are being scored and there is no longer that loud 'ping' when the ball is hit.

I'd like to see D1 college go to wood bats but I'm not sure it will happen. The coaches have contracts with aluminum bat companies because they are basically giving free advertising to all the high school and youth leagues, while the wood bat companies would have no reason to sign similar contracts. There was talk about subsidizing the additional cost of wood bats and having the MLB pick up the tab and in return, get a better evaluation of college talent. However, with all the wood bat summer leagues out there, they can get a good evaluation of a player already and are unlikely to foot the bill.

Yeah, I understand all the business aspects of it...but I think it is a major disservice to the players at the D1 level to not be getting in 50 plus games of wood bat...if they go pro they are using wood bats for much longer seasons...which is why you see such a drop off in averages during that transition. There was talk about D2 moving to wood bats...as they do not get those deals that D1 programs get. There are 3 or 4 conferences that already play full wood bat only...and the East Regional of D2 was wood bat as it was hosted by a NE-10 program.

[aceinthehole]

Just how much are these coaches deals w/ bat manufactures? I would think that these kind of deals would only apply to coaches in leagues like the SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and maybe some of the premier programs in the country like Long Beach State.

I mean honestly are coaches at Northeast-based leagues like the AE and NEC, or other mid-majors schools really getting anything significant from a manufacturer?

Just wondering ...

[DFW HOYA]

College baseball should play the same standard equipment it does in the MLB.

Imagine if men's basketball used the smaller women's ball instead, it would turn the game into a dunkfest.

[asumike83]

Yeah, I understand all the business aspects of it...but I think it is a major disservice to the players at the D1 level to not be getting in 50 plus games of wood bat...if they go pro they are using wood bats for much longer seasons...which is why you see such a drop off in averages during that transition. There was talk about D2 moving to wood bats...as they do not get those deals that D1 programs get. There are 3 or 4 conferences that already play full wood bat only...and the East Regional of D2 was wood bat as it was hosted by a NE-10 program.

I'm with you, I'd love to see them make the change. I love college baseball in spite of the aluminum bats but being able to see my school play and hear the crack of the bat would make four months of my year even more enjoyable! Hopefully they make the change but I'm not holding out too much hope.


Just how much are these coaches deals w/ bat manufactures? I would think that these kind of deals would only apply to coaches in leagues like the SEC, ACC, Pac-12, and maybe some of the premier programs in the country like Long Beach State.

I mean honestly are coaches at Northeast-based leagues like the AE and NEC, or other mid-majors schools really getting anything significant from a manufacturer?

Just wondering ...

Honestly, I am not sure either. I know that in some cases, the SEC/ACC/Big XII coaches get more money from the bat companies than they do in salary! I'm sure the payout to the mid-major programs is much smaller but like everything in college sports, the big boys sing the song and we just dance to it.

[Dane96]

College baseball should play the same standard equipment it does in the MLB.

Imagine if men's basketball used the smaller women's ball instead, it would turn the game into a dunkfest.

College footballs are smaller than the NFL version

[MplsBison]

Hopefully the CAA CEO's will understand that they've got a brand (if not a conference) to protect and develop. In order for CAA membership to mean anything, they've got to begin playing hardball with departing members. It's just an unfortunate order of business. If it means that ODU doesn't get to compete for FB conference championships or as an affiliate member for other sports, so be it. That will send a clear message that the league is serious about attracting schools who are truly invested in the best interests of the collective conference and aren't just looking to protect their own hides.

I also think at some point the CAA needs to bring the football league fully under the domain of the conference. This isn't something that can be done now but they conference had better take it seriously if they want the FB league to survive long term.

Yeah! Damnit, Delaware moved from the AE so that it could have it's own custom conference to fit its exact needs! And now teams are leaving!! Delaware angry! Smash!

[MplsBison]

Not with the new bats they are using now. I like wood bats much better as well but the changes in the bat specifications prior to the 2011 season requires the players to use bats without alloy and a smaller 'sweet spot' that is only about 3 inches long so that players can no longer hit rockets off the end of the bat and on the hands. It has made a difference, too. Games are shorter, less runs are being scored and there is no longer that loud 'ping' when the ball is hit.

I'd like to see D1 college go to wood bats but I'm not sure it will happen. The coaches have contracts with aluminum bat companies because they are basically giving free advertising to all the high school and youth leagues, while the wood bat companies would have no reason to sign similar contracts. There was talk about subsidizing the additional cost of wood bats and having the MLB pick up the tab and in return, get a better evaluation of college talent. However, with all the wood bat summer leagues out there, they can get a good evaluation of a player already and are unlikely to foot the bill.

Good quality wood bats wouldn't be that much more money.

As you said, it comes down to the college world series driving the demand for the shiny new TPX or whatever rediculous aluminum concoction they have now a-days with bright orange and neon green paint. College coaches get a cut of the action.

Everyone is happy.

[MplsBison]

College footballs are smaller than the NFL version

Not the same magnitude difference.

You'd have to be talking about playing football with a golf ball.

[henfan]

Yeah! Damnit, Delaware moved from the AE so that it could have it's own custom conference to fit its exact needs! And now teams are leaving!! Delaware angry! Smash!

You'll get it right eventually, though I suppose we shouldn't expect a mud duck to grasp the nuisances of east coast conferences. I'll simplify.

Delaware (and TU & HU) moved from the AEC because that conference clearly wasn't ever going to sponsor FB. The CAA guaranteed that they would make it a priority and did indeed come through. Far from being "angry" with the CAA, UD administrators have expressed their commitment to staying put and making the CAA and CAA FB stronger.

My suggestions as a fan have zero to do with the UD's stance. It's just common sense that any conference would want to adopt & strengthen membership regulations that would not put the well being of the conference in jeopardy. It appears that the CAA does indeed have intentions of doing just that, though I personally doubt they will go as far as I would recommend.

[MplsBison]

You'll get it right eventually, though I suppose we shouldn't expect a mud duck to grasp the nuisances of east coast conferences. I'll simplify.

Delaware (and TU & HU) moved from the AEC because that conference clearly wasn't ever going to sponsor FB. The CAA guaranteed that they would make it a priority and did indeed come through. Far from being "angry" with the CAA, UD administrators have expressed their commitment to staying put and making the CAA and CAA FB stronger.

My suggestions as a fan have zero to do with the UD's stance. It's just common sense that any conference would want to adopt & strengthen membership regulations that would not put the well being of the conference in jeopardy. It appears that the CAA does indeed have intentions of doing just that, though I personally doubt they will go as far as I would recommend.


You're just going right to my point again: well being of who?

To me, it sounds like your statement should really say, "It's just common sense that the CAA would want to adopt & strengthen membership regulations that would not put the well being of Delaware in jeopardy."

[henfan]

You're just going right to my point again: well being of who?

To me, it sounds like your statement should really say, "It's just common sense that the CAA would want to adopt & strengthen membership regulations that would not put the well being of Delaware in jeopardy."

Without tighter membership restrictions, a school like UD could simply relocate their FB program to, say, the MAC while keeping other sports in the CAA. That would not be to the CAA's advantage nor would it serve to strengthen the CAA's brand. The type of membership restrictions I'd advocate would actually serve to restrict my school's ability to jump conferences and yet I think it would be in the CAA's best interest long term.

So, again, if the conference doesn't adopt tighter regs, it'll be easier for the Blue Hens to move on. As a UD fan, I'm definitely fine with that but it would be pretty foolish on the CAA's part not to do everything within their ability to try to protect their membership & their brand.

Got it?

[aceinthehole]

Without tighter membership restrictions, a school like UD could simply relocate their FB program to, say, the MAC while keeping other sports in the CAA. That would not be to the CAA's advantage nor would it serve to strengthen the CAA's brand. The type of membership restrictions I'd advocate would actually serve to restrict my school's ability to jump conferences and yet I think it would be in the CAA's best interest long term.

So, again, if the conference doesn't adopt tighter regs, it'll be easier for the Blue Hens to move on. As a UD fan, I'm definitely fine with that but it would be pretty foolish on the CAA's part not to do everything within their ability to try to protect their membership & their brand.

Got it?

Easier, how? The Hens can't go anywhere until they get an invite, and once they get an invite, I'm 100% sure they will make the best decision for UD regardless of what the CAA decides this month.

I think you are vastly overstating how easy it would be for UD to just move its football team to another conference tomorrow. Sure the MAC added Temple, and then UMass, but look at their situation now with an odd 13-team league. I would think the MAC is going to seriously reconsider any future FB-affiliate memberships. The C-USA rumor was flatly denied by UD officials, and I have yet to read anything credible from the media or UD sources that suggest football is ready to pick up its bags and move anywhere in the immediate future.

The reality is, right now, UD doesn't have any other options but to make the CAA Football work. I think you are overstating UD's influence in the CAA today, as the league is now a majority of basketball interests. I'm not suggesting the CAA will give up its administration of football and try to alienate UD, but it is very likely the league may first add members without football in the upcoming expansion and I doubt UD is going to be able to make too much of a fuss about that.

[henfan]

Ace, calm down. You're beginning to overreact as badly as Mainejeff whenever Delaware's name is mentioned. xbawlingx

I didn't indicate or imply that UD WAS going to move anywhere, nor did I suggest that UD has unduly influence in the CAA. I merely presented an illustrative example of how loopholes in current CAA/CAA FB membership allow core members the opportunity to make moves that would be counter to the league's best interests. I could have just as easily have used JMU's or W&M's name but that would not have demonstrated the point I was trying to make to the Minnesota poster.

If you wish, we discuss the conversations that UD is reported and rumored to have had with the MAC via PM. I don't intend to do that in a thread whose topic is how to improve/save the CAA.

[MplsBison]

Without tighter membership restrictions, a school like UD could simply relocate their FB program to, say, the MAC while keeping other sports in the CAA. That would not be to the CAA's advantage nor would it serve to strengthen the CAA's brand. The type of membership restrictions I'd advocate would actually serve to restrict my school's ability to jump conferences and yet I think it would be in the CAA's best interest long term.

So, again, if the conference doesn't adopt tighter regs, it'll be easier for the Blue Hens to move on. As a UD fan, I'm definitely fine with that but it would be pretty foolish on the CAA's part not to do everything within their ability to try to protect their membership & their brand.

Got it?

Your second sentence proves you still don't get it.

VCU is leaving $5 million on the table to the CAA .... because of basketball. Basket. Ball.


FCS football means very little, in terms of financial stability or marketability, to any DI conference. Maybe in fact, it's in the CAA's best interest to pursue the top choices for basketball? But that never even occurred for you because in your mind the CAA owes it to Delaware to be the best FCS conference it can be, nothing more or less.

This is what I was trying to hint at before, but I see you need more direct help here.

[NHwildEcat]

Your second sentence proves you still don't get it.

VCU is leaving $5 million on the table to the CAA .... because of basketball. Basket. Ball.


FCS football means very little, in terms of financial stability or marketability, to any DI conference. Maybe in fact, it's in the CAA's best interest to pursue the top choices for basketball? But that never even occurred for you because in your mind the CAA owes it to Delaware to be the best FCS conference it can be, nothing more or less.

This is what I was trying to hint at before, but I see you need more direct help here.

But VCU IS going to make a move because of basketball because they do no have a football program to look out for. So in their situation it makes sense, and yes to the CAA membership as a whole basketball is going to bring in and drive the money situation. However, the CAA is different from CAA Football. They are two seperate leagues when you get down to the bare bones. One is a football only league and one is an all sports league.

Thus, the CAA football league needs to make moves that helps solidify its position within the FCS as that is its primary objective. That doesn't mean a move can't be made that helps both parties though.

[henfan]

FCS football means very little, in terms of financial stability or marketability, to any DI conference.

FB offers very little financial stability to any conference except for the top BCS conferences. That said, most still sponsor FB, including 13 FCS conferences, because it offers real value & marketability, beyond the small quarter of a million dollar BCS distributions per conference. There are plenty of D-I schools who lose money on MBB but that doesn't stop them from sponsoring that sport either.

Athletic administrators tend to know a little more about the topic than message board experts. Let's hear what Mo Valley administrators say about the subject.

"[Football] is going to allow the Missouri Valley Football Conference members to take advantage of year-long positive exposure received by the Missouri Valley Conference," said Missouri Valley Football Conference commissioner Patty Viverito.

"[The change from the Gateway to Missouri Valley Conference] is more for possible marketing opportunities and brand recognition.” said llinois State athletic director Sheahon Zenger.

The promise of FB saved the CAA from going under in 2000. It allowed the league to attract schools like Delaware, Towson, Hofstra & Northeastern and position itself as one of the strongest mid-major conferences in the country. Football is going to play a critical role in attracting new members and maintaining existing ones going forward.

Granted, strong NCAA MBB performances played a large role in the NBC Sports deal, but it would not have been possible without the CAA also having football to offer in the fall.

Both MBB & FB are important to CAA marketing and branding. It's very likely that pending expansion address both sports accordingly.

[aceinthehole]

Ace, calm down. You're beginning to overreact as badly as Mainejeff whenever Delaware's name is mentioned. xbawlingx

I didn't indicate or imply that UD WAS going to move anywhere, nor did I suggest that UD has unduly influence in the CAA. I merely presented an illustrative example of how loopholes in current CAA/CAA FB membership allow core members the opportunity to make moves that would be counter to the league's best interests. I could have just as easily have used JMU's or W&M's name but that would not have demonstrated the point I was trying to make to the Minnesota poster.

If you wish, we discuss the conversations that UD is reported and rumored to have had with the MAC via PM. I don't intend to do that in a thread whose topic is how to improve/save the CAA.

No, that's not it and you know it. You get defensive when anyone disagrees with your view of UD's role in the conference landscape. I have not read a compelling case why the CAA should bring football completely in-house or how this would bring stability to the CAA at large. The seperatly-administered football league has worked well in this region for decades, and I have no reason to think it won't contine to do so, even with mebership changes.

Has anyone clearly defined a vision or articulated what is the CAA's "best interests"? I've only read what fans of each school hope for in a league, and sometimes they are completely at odds with each other. I honestly have no idea what the Presidents and ADs really want this league to be – does anyone?

I'm merely point out that CAA membership today is a group of different factions - basketball-first, FCS football interests, FBS intentions, Northern, Southern, etc. I have no idea what is going to happen, but you continue to make the case that bringing in more CAA members that have the intentions to stay at FCS football level is in the best interest of the CAA, when we only know that it may be that it is in the best interest of UD (and W&M, and Towson).

No one is saying UD won't be fine in the end, because we know they will be. But as I said before, bringing football completely in under CAA makes the league more like the Big Sky or SoCon – which may be a perfectly acceptable outcome for UD and its fans. However, the majority of the CAA members may actually want the league to focus on basketball and have the conference look more like the A-10 or MVC.

[aceinthehole]

Sure. 13 mid-major conferences go to the trouble of sponsoring FCS FB because it "means very little, in terms of financial stability or marketability..." xholyx

Athletic administrators tend to know a little more about the topic than message board experts. Let's hear what Mo Valley administrators say about the subject.

"[Football] is going to allow the Missouri Valley Football Conference members to take advantage of year-long positive exposure received by the Missouri Valley Conference," said Missouri Valley Football Conference commissioner Patty Viverito.

"[The change from the Gateway to Missouri Valley Conference] is more for possible marketing opportunities and brand recognition.” said llinois State athletic director Sheahon Zenger.

The promise of FB saved the CAA from going under in 2000. It allowed the league to attract schools like Delaware, Towson, Hofstra & Northeastern and position itself as one of the strongest mid-major conferences in the country. Football is going to play a critical role in attracting new members and maintaining existing ones going forward.

Granted, strong NCAA MBB performances played a large role in the NBC Sports deal, but it would not have been possible without the CAA also having football to offer in the fall.

Both MBB & FB are important to CAA marketing and branding. It's very likely that pending expansion address both sports accordingly.

I fully agree, but ins't MVFC a seperate league administered by the MVC, just like CAA Football?

I think football is very important to the CAA for the reasons the commissioner stated, but I don't think the CAA needs to bring the football in-house. As you know, the CAA already gains valuable marketing and exposure with the current CAA Football structure - why change anything?

[NHwildEcat]

I fully agree, but ins't MVFC a seperate league administered by the MVC, just like CAA Football?

I think football is very important to the CAA for the reasons the commissioner stated, but I don't think the CAA needs to bring the football in-house. As you know, the CAA already gains valuable marketing and exposure with the current CAA Football structure - why change anything?

Agreed.

[henfan]

I think football is very important to the CAA for the reasons the commissioner stated, but I don't think the CAA needs to bring the football in-house. As you know, the CAA already gains valuable marketing and exposure with the current CAA Football structure - why change anything?

Though I've never seen it addressed directly by the conference, that may very well be the general consensus among the remaining CAA schools & administrators. As I indicated before, it's probably too late now to consider bringing FB under the CAA umbrella. It's something they needed to do 6 years ago.

It seems that the league is working towards some changes in how it does business. We'll see what they come up. My guess is that they'll put a band aid on the cancer and move on.

Expansion will probably leave the CAA & CAA FB stronger than most mid-major/FCS conferences. On the bad side, they're going to have to continue to replace members due to the inherent flaws suffered from their membership disparity. That's too bad.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

No, that's not it and you know it. You get defensive when anyone disagrees with your view of UD's role in the conference landscape. I have not read a compelling case why the CAA should bring football completely in-house or how this would bring stability to the CAA at large. The seperatly-administered football league has worked well in this region for decades, and I have no reason to think it won't contine to do so, even with mebership changes.

....

No one is saying UD won't be fine in the end, because we know they will be. But as I said before, bringing football completely in under CAA makes the league more like the Big Sky or SoCon – which may be a perfectly acceptable outcome for UD and its fans. However, the majority of the CAA members may actually want the league to focus on basketball and have the conference look more like the A-10 or MVC.

The big problem with bringing CAA football completely "in house" is one of math.

In 2013, UD, Towson, JMU, and William & Mary will be the only full CAA members playing football. (Richmond, UNH, Maine, and Nova are the other four.)

In the whole stewardship of the league by the CAA they always had no fewer than six full-time members, or were on the way to that number (when Hofstra and Northeastern dropped football, ODU and Georgia State were on the way to full membership in football).

That's why, IMO, they need at least two all-sports members, including FB. Unless they jettison football completely - which I don't think they'll do, but they can't rule out, either.

[spdram]

Most conferences have affiliate memberships in certain sports. I don't see why football couldn't be treated the same way. My quess is that with the visability of football the football only members wanted more say than just as an affiliate member and they did not want the full members to dictate their direction. I don't see the four football only members leaving their conferences to join the full CAA, and I don't think they would stick around long if they had little voice in football matters. So bottom line the current structure is probably the only structure that would work as long as there are "important" members with football only.

[henfan]

Don't expect any news on expansion candidates just yet but the CAA will be issuing a release about their conference meetings this afternoon.

[aceinthehole]

Though I've never seen it addressed directly by the conference, that may very well be the general consensus among the remaining CAA schools & administrators. As I indicated before, it's probably too late now to consider bringing FB under the CAA umbrella. It's something they needed to do 6 years ago.


Why? Not to beat the issue to death, but what stability would football have brought the CAA? Would CAA-sponsored FCS football have stopped GA State from bolting for the Sun Belt, or would it have kept ODU from leaving for C-USA? It certainly doesn’t keep VCU from going to the A-10.

The CAA couldn't do what you suggest years ago because the New England 4, along with Richmond and 'Nova, just weren't going to take a back seat as affiliates to non-football membership of the CAA, who could dictate football issues. The way it worked out - the CAA taking over A-10 Football – was just best for everyone at the time. The CAA's take over the existing A-10/YC structure gave the CAA exactly what the CAA wanted - marketing and exposure. I just don't think football was ever seen by most CAA administrators as a way to enhance CAA membership further than it already had – by using it as leverage to raid schools from the AE.

[MplsBison]

But VCU IS going to make a move because of basketball because they do no have a football program to look out for. So in their situation it makes sense, and yes to the CAA membership as a whole basketball is going to bring in and drive the money situation. However, the CAA is different from CAA Football. They are two seperate leagues when you get down to the bare bones. One is a football only league and one is an all sports league.

Thus, the CAA football league needs to make moves that helps solidify its position within the FCS as that is its primary objective. That doesn't mean a move can't be made that helps both parties though.

The CAA is discussing adding members to the basketball conference and it goes without saying any new member of the basketball conference that has a varsity football team would have a guaranteed slot in the football conference, if they wanted it (Davidson might want to stay in the Pioneer League, for example).

Pretty obvious, not sure why you felt the need to make a false distinction between the two...

[MplsBison]

FB offers very little financial stability to any conference except for the top BCS conferences. That said, most still sponsor FB, including 13 FCS conferences, because it offers real value & marketability, beyond the small quarter of a million dollar BCS distributions per conference. There are plenty of D-I schools who lose money on MBB but that doesn't stop them from sponsoring that sport either.

Athletic administrators tend to know a little more about the topic than message board experts. Let's hear what Mo Valley administrators say about the subject.

"[Football] is going to allow the Missouri Valley Football Conference members to take advantage of year-long positive exposure received by the Missouri Valley Conference," said Missouri Valley Football Conference commissioner Patty Viverito.

"[The change from the Gateway to Missouri Valley Conference] is more for possible marketing opportunities and brand recognition.” said llinois State athletic director Sheahon Zenger.

The promise of FB saved the CAA from going under in 2000. It allowed the league to attract schools like Delaware, Towson, Hofstra & Northeastern and position itself as one of the strongest mid-major conferences in the country. Football is going to play a critical role in attracting new members and maintaining existing ones going forward.

Granted, strong NCAA MBB performances played a large role in the NBC Sports deal, but it would not have been possible without the CAA also having football to offer in the fall.

Both MBB & FB are important to CAA marketing and branding. It's very likely that pending expansion address both sports accordingly.

You're using an example from the opposite direction of what you're proposing.

She said (and IL St agreed) that changing the football conference name to MV would help the marketing of the MV *football conference* (instead of being called the Gateway). That's not a false statement.


However, administering and having a similarly branded FCS football conference has in no way, shape or form helped the stability or marketability of the MVC basketball conference. They still have their separate membership (with 5 of 10 members competing in the MVFC as well - UNI, IL St, IND St, SIU & MSU) that needs to be taken care of and they still have their TV deal for basketball. This is maintained in spite of the FCS football conference, not because of it!

You're trying to argue that if the MVC brought the MVFC in-house, it would strength the conference? Nonsense. Same exactly for the CAA.

In fact I'd argue they could get the same or more bball games on TV if you took out the football games. FCS football has no market. Or a very small one, about the same as DII football.


Therefore the correct answer is that the CAA needs to strength the basketball conference and provide a better geographical link to UNC-Wilmington. That should be the priority. If they do add a school like Elon, then they'll have a guaranteed spot in the CAA FC.

Stony Brook is not on the table.


It may be in fact true that starting up the CAA FC was the way they bribed Delaware, Hofstra and Towson into joining the CAA bball confernece, thus saving it. But that was then. Times have changed now. If Delaware doesn't like it then they can go walk off to the MAC or WAC when that decision comes up here shortly. Everyone knows Delaware and JMU football belong at the next level anyway. Villanova, Richmond, W&M - that's a CAA type of football program.

[NHwildEcat]

The CAA is discussing adding members to the basketball conference and it goes without saying any new member of the basketball conference that has a varsity football team would have a guaranteed slot in the football conference, if they wanted it (Davidson might want to stay in the Pioneer League, for example).

Pretty obvious, not sure why you felt the need to make a false distinction between the two...

I think you need to get out once in awhile and get some fresh air, because you are clearly not able to read.

[henfan]

About what I expected. Most of the big news will come later.
http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205438636&DB_OEM_ID=8500

[NHwildEcat]

About what I expected. Most of the big news will come later.
http://www.caasports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205438636&DB_OEM_ID=8500

Looks that way...can I just say I really dislike the website for the CAA. It is poorly designed...

[aceinthehole]

Well they did accomplish this:

- Revised the revenue distribution plan to increase the financial reward for institutions achieving the performance criteria in men's basketball.

- Voted to increase the base withdrawal fee for a departing institution under liquidated damages to $1 million dollars. This increase does not apply to institutions that have already announced their withdrawal from the conference.

[whitey]

Received and endorsed the status report on efforts to increase conference membership.

Reading between the lines a little here: This leads me to believe the President's have agreed to the list of schools the CAA executives have determined to target for expansion. I'd expect formal invites and offer acceptances in the next few weeks.

[NHwildEcat]

Reading between the lines a little here: This leads me to believe the President's have agreed to the list of schools the CAA executives have determined to target for expansion. I'd expect formal invites and offer acceptances in the next few weeks.

Yeah...seems like that is likely.

[henfan]

Reading between the lines a little here: This leads me to believe the President's have agreed to the list of schools the CAA executives have determined to target for expansion. I'd expect formal invites and offer acceptances in the next few weeks.

I'd expect announcements will be coming by the 29th.

Interesting that Pat Harker (UD) was nominated to be the CAA's rep on the NCAA BoD.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bump.

North
Maine
New Hampshire
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Lehigh
Lafayette

South
Bucknell
Delaware
Georgetown
James Madison
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

Not looking half-bad now, does it? The stability it would provide if, say, James Madison leaves is interesting to think about.

[DFW HOYA]

Bump.

North
Maine, New Hampshire, Holy Cross, Colgate, Fordham, Stony Brook, Lehigh,Lafayette

South
Bucknell, Delaware, Georgetown, James Madison, Richmond, Towson, Villanova, William & Mary

Not looking half-bad now, does it? The stability it would provide if, say, James Madison leaves is interesting to think about.

But it would mean the PL schools would have to distance themselves from the AI.

[henfan]

Not looking half-bad now, does it?

Not half-bad; wholly bad.

A better idea for FB:

NORTH: UM, UNH, URI, UA, SBU, VU, UD
SOUTH: TU, W&M, UR, JMU, Elon, Wofford, Furman

Academically strong without the unnecessary AI. Would also bolster the CAA's MLAX and baseball leagues.

[MplsBison]

But it would mean the PL schools would have to distance themselves from the AI.

Never happen.

End

[superman7515]

Not half-bad; wholly bad.

Exactly. That's approaching dump the season tickets after decades level of bad.

[DFW HOYA]

Never happen.

End

Don't speak for Georgetown and Fordham. They are not institutionally tied to the Ivy Index.

[Tribe4SF]

Not half-bad; wholly bad.

A better idea for FB:

NORTH: UM, UNH, URI, UA, SBU, VU, UD
SOUTH: TU, W&M, UR, JMU, Elon, Wofford, Furman

Academically strong without the unnecessary AI. Would also bolster the CAA's MLAX and baseball leagues.

Now you're talkin!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Academically strong

It may be competitive but don't try to convince me that it's as academically strong as the PL version.

Also, I missed the part where JMU's departure doesn't throw the whole idea under the bus.

[CFBfan]

Don't speak for Georgetown and Fordham. They are not institutionally tied to the Ivy Index.

there is NO way Gtown could compete in such a league.

[DFW HOYA]

there is NO way Gtown could compete in such a league.

Sure, some mismatches but probably no worse than what the PL is going to offer.

Recruiting wise would be a gain. Remember, there are a lot of recruits interested in Georgetown that simply never make it through Admissions because of the Ivy Index. Still, scholarships always beat aid, which is why Georgetown's 2013 class is not a strong one.

But at some point, either scholarships or the Index will force Georgetown into a decision on the Patriot League. The PL's self-selection process (yes to W&M and Villanova, all others need not apply) will come back to bite them if good candidates are always turned away.

[Tribe4SF]

It may be competitive but don't try to convince me that it's as academically strong as the PL version.

Also, I missed the part where JMU's departure doesn't throw the whole idea under the bus.

Close enough.

Where is JMU going? I guess I missed that announcement.

[CFBfan]

Remember, there are a lot of recruits interested in Georgetown that simply never make it through Admissions because of the Ivy Index.

so DF, you are saying that the PL's AI is more stringent than Gtown's Addmissions, are you sure about that?

I just don't see GU staying in any scholarship league if the continue to not offer them. There are already a couple good players looking to jump ship now along with less then good recruiting.....

[DFW HOYA]

so DF, you are saying that the PL's AI is more stringent than Gtown's Admissions, are you sure about that?

There are recruits Georgetown probably could get admitted otherwise who would never stand a chance with PL banding, kids that end up at the Academies, at Villanova, or at Richmond. Yes, Georgetown accepts 16% of students overall, but the other teams playing in the Big East have a higher admit rate on the margins because SAT and class rank are not the only criteria, unlike the PL. (An apocryphal story from years back was that Colt Brennan was interested in Georgetown while at Worcester Academy, but the Index bands made that unrealistic.)


There are already a couple good players looking to jump ship now along with less then good recruiting.....

Most people who leave the team stay in school, there are generally very few transfers. The last one of note was James Brady, who went from the #1 QB at Georgetown to a total of 15 yards passing in two seasons at UNH.

http://www.unhwildcats.com/sports/fball/2012-13/files/histcarr.htm#11

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Close enough.

Where is JMU going? I guess I missed that announcement.

Check out Twitter, where JMU-to-the-Sun-Belt-to-replace-WKU-when-they-go is now a thing.

[CFBfan]

There are recruits Georgetown probably could get admitted otherwise who would never stand a chance with PL banding, kids that end up at the Academies, at Villanova, or at Richmond. Yes, Georgetown accepts 16% of students overall, but the other teams playing in the Big East have a higher admit rate on the margins because SAT and class rank are not the only criteria, unlike the PL. (An apocryphal story from years back was that Colt Brennan was interested in Georgetown while at Worcester Academy, but the Index bands made that unrealistic.)

Most people who leave the team stay in school, there are generally very few transfers. last one of note was James Brady, who went from the #1 QB at Georgetown to the #3 at UNH.

http://www.unhwildcats.com/sports/fball/2012-13/bios/brady_james_05b3


i agree with you BUT there are a couple of current players looking at transfering because they do not think GU will be competetive beyond this year and they want to play in a "better program" Not saying they are right or wrong, smart of foolish for considering, just saying what they're doing.....
and IMO, brady was very foolish and short sited for leaving and going to unh for several reasons.

[ccd494]

It may be competitive but don't try to convince me that it's as academically strong as the PL version.

Also, I missed the part where JMU's departure doesn't throw the whole idea under the bus.

He didn't say it was as strong. He just said it was strong enough for the publics to associate themselves with. Some of us don't define our schools' athletic programs by their ability to turn their noses up at the rest of D-I. We just want conference mates to be passable.

[Pard4Life]

Bump.

North
Maine
New Hampshire
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Stony Brook
Lehigh
Lafayette

South
Bucknell
Delaware
Georgetown
James Madison
Richmond
Towson
Villanova
William & Mary

Not looking half-bad now, does it? The stability it would provide if, say, James Madison leaves is interesting to think about.

I don't like it solely because of Towson, JMU, Delaware, Maine, Stony Brook, UNH. Otherwise, it's kind of what the PL is actually aiming for.

[PAllen]

Not half-bad; wholly bad.

A better idea for FB:

NORTH: UM, UNH, URI, UA, SBU, VU, UD
SOUTH: TU, W&M, UR, JMU, Elon, Wofford, Furman

Academically strong without the unnecessary AI. Would also bolster the CAA's MLAX and baseball leagues.

This is much more likely, and honestly makes more sense for most schools involved. Although even with this, I can't see Wofford, Furman, and Elon volunteering for trips to Maine every couple of years. I would guess much more likely still is UR, W&M to the SoCon JMU moves up, and the rest stay put in whatever the conference gets called for the next decade.

Either way, the question as far as the PL is concerned is: When does Richmond or W&M get tired of travelling to Orono or Charleston; and is Worcester or Hamilton much better?

[CFBfan]

This is much more likely, and honestly makes more sense for most schools involved. Although even with this, I can't see Wofford, Furman, and Elon volunteering for trips to Maine every couple of years. I would guess much more likely still is UR, W&M to the SoCon JMU moves up, and the rest stay put in whatever the conference gets called for the next decade.

Either way, the question as far as the PL is concerned is: When does Richmond or W&M get tired of travelling to Orono or Charleston; and is Worcester or Hamilton much better?

don't forgwt Lewisburg for those ugly bison

[ccd494]

There's an airport with direct flights from DC less than 15 minutes from campus in Orono. Also flights through NYC if you want to connect. You know what's within 15 minutes of Hamilton or Lewisburg? Nothing.

[Franks Tanks]

There's an airport with direct flights from DC less than 15 minutes from campus in Orono. Also flights through NYC if you want to connect. You know what's within 15 minutes of Hamilton or Lewisburg? Nothing.

Technically there is an airport in State College that can handle most passenger jets, but they would need to be chartered. State College to Bucknell would be about 40 minutes or so. Hamilton is an hour or less from Syracuse, Bing and Uitica. Basically it isn't much harder to get to Colgate and Bucknell than it is to get to Syracuse and Penn State. Just 30-40 minutes longer in the bus after the flight.

[ccd494]

Technically there is an airport in State College that can handle most passenger jets, but they would need to be chartered. State College to Bucknell would be about 40 minutes or so. Hamilton is an hour or less from Syracuse, Bing and Uitica. Basically it isn't much harder to get to Colgate and Bucknell than it is to get to Syracuse and Penn State. Just 30-40 minutes longer in the bus after the flight.

Yeah. And its not like these schools don't charter for flights. Orono is an easy flight. And, a flight is a flight.

[DFW HOYA]

The flight talk is a distraction. Most I-AA schools still take the bus.

W&M, Richmond, and Villanova are not aiming for the PL for three reasons:

1. AI and recruiting.

2. Competitive strength of what they have in the CAA vs. the PL., e.g., more at-large opportunities.

3. Compatibility, or as W&M's AD was quoted, "They are far more similar to each other than we are to them. Inherently, we’re different because we’re a public (institution). We’re a much larger school than several of them. In terms of the liberal arts piece, very much the same. And we compete for a lot of the same kids. There are definite academic similarities. But they do business a little differently than we do because of the nature of private schools.”

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. Compatibility, or as W&M's AD was quoted, "They are far more similar to each other than we are to them. Inherently, we’re different because we’re a public (institution). We’re a much larger school than several of them. In terms of the liberal arts piece, very much the same. And we compete for a lot of the same kids. There are definite academic similarities. But they do business a little differently than we do because of the nature of private schools.”

This was true until BU was admitted to the league.

[DFW HOYA]

This was true until BU was admitted to the league.

BU is a private school, however.

Conferences are increasingly lining up along public/private lines. One of the reasons the Big East has not added a public school like VCU is FOIA disclosures do not apply to private schools--it was felt that e-mails from from meetings at South Florida helped destabilize the conference because the networks knew what was going on behind closed doors.

[ccd494]

This was true until BU was admitted to the league.

BU, despite its massive size, is still a private. And is, frankly, a very odd fit that has to be absolutely KICKING themselves for not waiting another year and getting an A-10 bid.

I am just looking forward to the day (probably not too far in the distant future) when every PL thread includes complaints about BU thinking it is the center of the universe, trying to run the league in its own favor, voting against everything football related, etc. If conferences were football teams, BU would be the overpaid, whiny wide receiver.

[superman7515]

If conferences were football teams, BU would be the overpaid, whiny Terrell Owens.

http://static1.businessinsider.com/image/4df7d695cadcbbf76e0e0000-590/terrell-owens-shows-off-doing-some-sit-ups.jpg


http://kimoracochran.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/08/terrell_owens_crying.jpg

[PAllen]

There's an airport with direct flights from DC less than 15 minutes from campus in Orono. Also flights through NYC if you want to connect. You know what's within 15 minutes of Hamilton or Lewisburg? Nothing.

All I know about travel to Orono comes from guys I used to officiate with who did your games. They lived in the Northern Virginia to Philadelphia area, and to a man said the travel involved in getting to Orono for a game was the worst in the CAA/PL/IL. It's been a few years, and the FB team at least would be chartering the flight, but the Women's BBall team is going commercial, if they fly at all.

[ccd494]

All I know about travel to Orono comes from guys I used to officiate with who did your games. They lived in the Northern Virginia to Philadelphia area, and to a man said the travel involved in getting to Orono for a game was the worst in the CAA/PL/IL. It's been a few years, and the FB team at least would be chartering the flight, but the Women's BBall team is going commercial, if they fly at all.

Bangor has daily flights to DC National and Philadelphia. Multiple times per day. There are also direct flights to Detroit, Tampa/St. Pete and NYC, not that those apply to the CAA. Is it as cheap as flying from, say, Boston to Atlanta or DC? No. It's certainly FARTHER than any other trip, but it's not a tough get. I realize it isn't hopping on Acela to get from Philly to DC, but it's not like you're renting a pack mule to go from Nome to some Inuit village.

[bostonspider]

I think the rumored loss of JMU from the CAA will definitely give Richmond pause. If Georgetown were to tell the Spiders that we had to join the PL for football to get into the Big East for all sports, I promise you the University would say YES..

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Bangor has daily flights to DC National and Philadelphia. Multiple times per day. There are also direct flights to Detroit, Tampa/St. Pete and NYC, not that those apply to the CAA. Is it as cheap as flying from, say, Boston to Atlanta or DC? No. It's certainly FARTHER than any other trip, but it's not a tough get. I realize it isn't hopping on Acela to get from Philly to DC, but it's not like you're renting a pack mule to go from Nome to some Inuit village.

Add a flight to Syracuse and Boston and you then can get to any 35-40 minutes from every Patriot League school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the rumored loss of JMU from the CAA will definitely give Richmond pause. If Georgetown were to tell the Spiders that we had to join the PL for football to get into the Big East for all sports, I promise you the University would say YES..

FWIW Richmond I've seen reported as a longshot to join the Big East, though I understand Georgetown has been pulling hard for them to be in the mix.

[bostonspider]

It has been reported as a long shot, but in reality it just makes sense. If the BE is adding two more schools, one is likely Saint Louis. Then the second one comes down to Dayton, VCU and Richmond. VCU is likely out, even though they are the best basketball program currently, because they are too big, too public, and do not really have the academics to match up with the current BE. So now it is Richmond and Dayton. Their basketball programs have been pretty equal in accomplishments in the last 10 years, with UR having more wins in the NCAA's but Dayton having a higher RPI. Now Dayton has better fan support from Richmond, but is located just 50 miles away from BE member Xavier. Richmond is about 90 miles from Georgetown, and would provide the needed East - West Balance, 6 in each area. Added to that is UR's higher academic levels, and the fact that they are private, but not catholic, which keeps away from the CYO banter, and one can see why people are still bullish on Richmond getting into the BE if they stretch to 12.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

It's amazing how 'Nova can screw St. Joe's. There isn't a good reason to exclude the Hawks given the teams being mentioned. Martelli has been bumbling recently but you don't have to go too far back to find a legit national program. There's a lot more than just the '03-'04 season.

[DFW HOYA]

It's amazing how 'Nova can screw St. Joe's. There isn't a good reason to exclude the Hawks given the teams being mentioned.

Alumni Fieldhouse (aka Hagan Arena) isn't much bigger than McDonough Gymnasium. End of story.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Alumni Fieldhouse (aka Hagan Arena) isn't much bigger than McDonough Gymnasium. End of story.

Hagan seats about 4,500 which is plenty big enough for Creighton, Seton Hall, DePaul and Xavier. For the bigger games SJU can play at the Palestra. SJU has used it as their other home for decades.

How can the Catholic League not play host to the "Holy War"?

[Go...gate]

It's amazing how 'Nova can screw St. Joe's. There isn't a good reason to exclude the Hawks given the teams being mentioned. Martelli has been bumbling recently but you don't have to go too far back to find a legit national program. There's a lot more than just the '03-'04 season.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

[Go...gate]

Hagan seats about 4,500 which is plenty big enough for Creighton, Seton Hall, DePaul and Xavier. For the bigger games SJU can play at the Palestra. SJU has used it as their other home for decades.

How can the Catholic League not play host to the "Holy War"?

Playing in those big-time arenas sure helped Georgetown this year.....

[Go...gate]

BU, despite its massive size, is still a private. And is, frankly, a very odd fit that has to be absolutely KICKING themselves for not waiting another year and getting an A-10 bid.

I am just looking forward to the day (probably not too far in the distant future) when every PL thread includes complaints about BU thinking it is the center of the universe, trying to run the league in its own favor, voting against everything football related, etc. If conferences were football teams, BU would be the overpaid, whiny wide receiver.

You really think BU would have been a good fit in the A-10? I see them more like Fordham.

[DFW HOYA]

Playing in those big-time arenas sure helped Georgetown this year.....

Well, if you mean a #5 national ranking and a national player of the year candidate, I'll take it...

The Big East has/had a rule mandating minimum campus arena sizes of 6,000 to host conference games. In fact, only two schools (Seton Hall, Georgetown) did not meet this criterion; as a result, McDonough Gymnasium (was once 4,200 seats, reduced to 2,400 because the building is now functionally obsolete) is not allowed to host Big East games.

Thankfully, the Patriot does not have such a rule in football, or Georgetown would have to become a barnstorming team.

[HailSzczur]

Hagan seats about 4,500 which is plenty big enough for Creighton, Seton Hall, DePaul and Xavier. For the bigger games SJU can play at the Palestra. SJU has used it as their other home for decades.

How can the Catholic League not play host to the "Holy War"?

Because we don't view the "Holy War" as a "rivalry" like St. Joes (PA) does.

[ccd494]

You really think BU would have been a good fit in the A-10? I see them more like Fordham.

BU takes its Olympic sports very, very seriously. They would have been fine in that regard. Maybe a bit behind the 8-ball in basketball (although they have the facilities to be a success, it doesn't help that hockey comes first, second, third ... twentieth in the winter).

Regardless, whether BU was a good fit or not, they would have mortgaged half of Comm Ave. to get there.

[henfan]

BU takes its Olympic sports very, very seriously. They would have been fine in that regard. Maybe a bit behind the 8-ball in basketball (although they have the facilities to be a success, it doesn't help that hockey comes first, second, third ... twentieth in the winter).

Regardless, whether BU was a good fit or not, they would have mortgaged half of Comm Ave. to get there.

BU would not have been competitive in A-10 MBB unless they were willing to cut back on their sports offering to focus mainly on MBB. They also would have had to have made some unpleasant academic compromises. If they had to make a move at all, the PL wasn't a bad one.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

BU would not have been competitive in A-10 MBB unless they were willing to cut back on their sports offering to focus mainly on MBB. They also would have had to have made some unpleasant academic compromises. If they had to make a move at all, the PL wasn't a bad one.

Like George Washington, Richmond and Fordham? Those three are on par with Boston U. academically imo.

[MplsBison]

Like George Washington, Richmond and Fordham? Those three are on par with Boston U. academically imo.

BU crushes those three (particularly Fordham and Richmond) in research expenditures. But I suppose when people say "academics" there's never any real telling which of the hundreds of different, sometimes seemingly made up, attributes which are suppose to infer something about the quality of the school that they're talking about.

[henfan]

Like George Washington, Richmond and Fordham? Those three are on par with Boston U. academically imo.

And how many MBB conferences championships have those schools won? GWU had a couple in the last decade (and an APR penalty) and UR has one. FU has won as many A-10 championships as Lehigh and Delaware.

You think there's no difference between the kids BU has recruited to play MBB and those recruited by Xavier, Temple, URI & UMass?xconfusedx

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

And how many MBB conferences championships have those schools won? GWU had a couple in the last decade (and an APR penalty) and UR has one. FU has won as many A-10 championships as Lehigh and Delaware.

You think there's no difference between the kids BU has recruited to play MBB and those recruited by Xavier, Temple, URI & UMass?xconfusedx

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Athletics aside, GWU, Richmond and Fordham are basically peers of Boston U. When it comes to who they recruit for athletics comes down to how seriously they want to take it ala Duke, Georgetown, Notre Dame etc.

BTW, Temple had a Boston U. grad on the team. Jake O'Brien was by far our best outside shooter.

[Go...gate]

BU takes its Olympic sports very, very seriously. They would have been fine in that regard. Maybe a bit behind the 8-ball in basketball (although they have the facilities to be a success, it doesn't help that hockey comes first, second, third ... twentieth in the winter).

Regardless, whether BU was a good fit or not, they would have mortgaged half of Comm Ave. to get there.

If that is true, then I am surprised they are in the PL. The A-10 has not seemed averse to admitting new schools.

[GannonFan]

I'm not sure what you're getting at? Athletics aside, GWU, Richmond and Fordham are basically peers of Boston U. When it comes to who they recruit for athletics comes down to how seriously they want to take it ala Duke, Georgetown, Notre Dame etc.

BTW, Temple had a Boston U. grad on the team. Jake O'Brien was by far our best outside shooter.

I think the point he's making is that the three teams you mention (GW, Richmond, and Fordham) are complete non-factors in A10 basketball for years now. Heck, GW hasn't been good since the Yinka Dare years, and Fordham's never been good. If those schools did make more academic concessions when it comes to basketball, like other A10 schools do, they might be more competitive on the floor. Would BU make those concessions?

[hebmskebm]

I think the point he's making is that the three teams you mention (GW, Richmond, and Fordham) are complete non-factors in A10 basketball for years now. Heck, GW hasn't been good since the Yinka Dare years, and Fordham's never been good. If those schools did make more academic concessions when it comes to basketball, like other A10 schools do, they might be more competitive on the floor. Would BU make those concessions?

Richmond was in the NCAA Tourney as recently as 2011, GW as recently as 2007, so they've had relatively recent success. No argument about Fordham, though.:D

[GannonFan]

Richmond was in the NCAA Tourney as recently as 2011, GW as recently as 2007, so they've had relatively recent success. No argument about Fordham, though.:D

GW has one NCAA win in 20 years. If that's success then, well, you get the idea.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

GW has one NCAA win in 20 years. If that's success then, well, you get the idea.

From the early 90's until really recently GWU was a household name. They spent a lot of time in the Top 25 was frequently on TV, produced college stars like Shante Rodgers, Alexander Koul, Miserokov and Dare.

They were ranked #6 in the country as recently as 2006.

[PhillyApp1]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels this way.

Nova can SCREW St Joes because they can, and always will, when the chance arises.....just is the way it is...ST Joe needs to find their own path, not follow Nova...I still hate Rollie Mass for killing th BIG 5....Rollie= A hole

[DFW HOYA]

Richmond was in the NCAA Tourney as recently as 2011, GW as recently as 2007, so they've had relatively recent success. No argument about Fordham, though.:D

Fordham has one NCAA appearance (1992) in the last 42 years.

[Go...gate]

OK, I'll say it - Fordham NEVER should have left the Patriot League. xcoachx

[Engineer86]

OK, I'll say it - Fordham NEVER should have left the Patriot League. xcoachx

Like many of these moves, the grass is always greener