Idaho to the the Big Sky?

[darell1976]

http://www.sportsnetwork.com/merge/tsnform.aspx?c=sportsnetwork&page=cfoot2/writers/infcshuddle/archive/haley_5_1_2012.htm


The list of FCS programs that are moving up to the FBS, or studying the idea, has become unwieldy considering some schools aren't cut out for it even as they stick their chest out and thump it.

There's never been an FBS program that changed course and reclassified down to the FCS, but the University of Idaho might find the idea too enticing in the next year.

The addition of Cal Poly, UC Davis, North Dakota and Southern Utah this year is bringing the Big Sky's football membership to 13. An even 14 is coveted, but there's no other logical prospect for the FCS' biggest conference to get to that number.

[MplsBison]

Just talk. I'll deny it until it happens.

The investment in FBS level of play has been made at the U of Idaho. That's not something you backslide on.


They can maintain independent status in the west region and find many schools, both FBS and FCS, to schedule games with. Just going to be tougher sledding for a time.

[darell1976]

Just talk. I'll deny it until it happens.

The investment in FBS level of play has been made at the U of Idaho. That's not something you backslide on.


They can maintain independent status in the west region and find many schools, both FBS and FCS, to schedule games with. Just going to be tougher sledding for a time.

They averaged 12,000...I can see maybe the NCAA attendance rule as another reason to go back to the FCS.

[MplsBison]

They averaged 12,000...I can see maybe the NCAA attendance rule as another reason to go back to the FCS.

Nope. Never been enforced, never will be.

Eastern Michigan has been worse.

[darell1976]

Nope. Never been enforced, never will be.

Eastern Michigan has been worse.

I know the NCAA doesn't really enforce it or at all, but it might give Idaho a reason to go back to the FCS without being frowned upon by FBS fans. They needed Boise State to make their attendance rise then when they left the WAC there is no one that would keep their attendance up unless you get Idaho State or the Montana's to join which won't happen. At least in the Big Sky they can make more money with attendance. Sorry but future WAC teams are not going to pack the Kibbie Dome.

[slostang]

Just talk. I'll deny it until it happens.

The investment in FBS level of play has been made at the U of Idaho. That's not something you backslide on.


They can maintain independent status in the west region and find many schools, both FBS and FCS, to schedule games with. Just going to be tougher sledding for a time.

Other than conference games name the FBS teams that have been willing to come to Idaho over the last 10 years. There have not been many and now they will need to find at least 4 or5 every year as an indy. That is going to be more than tougher sledding for a time. That is going to be near impossible.

[TheRevSFA]

Other than conference games name the FBS teams that have been willing to come to Idaho over the last 10 years. There have not been many and now they will need to find at least 4 or5 every year as an indy. That is going to be more than tougher sledding for a time. That is going to be near impossible.

As stated before, they don't have the budget to do it. They have one of the lowest, if not the lowest, FBS budget. There are FCS teams with higher budgets than Idaho has.

They went FBS to have an instate rivalry with Boise State, and BSU left them in the dust. It failed..

[MplsBison]

As stated before, they don't have the budget to do it. They have one of the lowest, if not the lowest, FBS budget. There are FCS teams with higher budgets than Idaho has.

They went FBS to have an instate rivalry with Boise State, and BSU left them in the dust. It failed..

We're talking only about the travel budget for football. Nothing else. That is a fraction of the total budget, which you're ludicrously trying to use to justify why they can't.


I fail to see how the travel budget from being in the WAC, with maybe 1 bus trip every other year to Utah St, is going to be much smaller than a west region indy schedule.

[MplsBison]

Other than conference games name the FBS teams that have been willing to come to Idaho over the last 10 years. There have not been many and now they will need to find at least 4 or5 every year as an indy. That is going to be more than tougher sledding for a time. That is going to be near impossible.

Fair point. They'll have make that choice.

My point is only that I see them dropping football before going to the FCS, where they certainly will lose money.

[TheRevSFA]

We're talking only about the travel budget for football. Nothing else. That is a fraction of the total budget, which you're ludicrously trying to use to justify why they can't.


I fail to see how the travel budget from being in the WAC, with maybe 1 bus trip every other year to Utah St, is going to be much smaller than a west region indy schedule.

You're forgetting about the money to pay teams to come to Idaho. They won't get FBS teams up there to play them in Moscow, so they will spend most of the year on the road.

If you think they can make money being the FBS version of the Washington Generals, then that's your opinion.

[darell1976]

OOC Home games:
2012
EWU (FCS)
Wyoming
2011
Bowling Green
North Dakota (FCS)
2010
North Dakota (FCS)
UNLV
2009
San Diego State
Colorado State
2008
Idaho State (FCS)
Western Michigan
2007
Cal Poly (FCS)
Northern Illinois
2006
Idaho State (FCS)
2005
No home OOC games
2004
Washington St

9 seasons.... 8 FBS teams and 6 FCS teams.

[bojeta]

I'm not going to pretend to know the extent of their "FBS Investment" and won't spend time researching it. Can someone explain how, given their tiny stadium, they have invested much into FBS status? Obviously, as Darell pointed out, they are not attracting teams to their house. What attendance they do have could be reached at the FCS level. Gauranteed TV revenues I suppose, but that goes away when the WAC folds. No other FBS conference wants them, and as an Independent, they are certainly NOT going to attract TV deals. I'm pretty sure this is that ONE situation where a drop down makes sense. Or, they just drop the program.

[MplsBison]

OOC Home games:
2012
EWU (FCS)
Wyoming
2011
Bowling Green
North Dakota (FCS)
2010
North Dakota (FCS)
UNLV
2009
San Diego State
Colorado State
2008
Idaho State (FCS)
Western Michigan
2007
Cal Poly (FCS)
Northern Illinois
2006
Idaho State (FCS)
2005
No home OOC games
2004
Washington St

9 seasons.... 8 FBS teams and 6 FCS teams.

Or put another way: since 2007 they've scheduled two non-conference home games every year (and I assume two road games as well). Every single one of those years they've been successful in getting an FBS team to travel to Moscow.

So the only real conclusion is that we have no idea what their success would be in attracting 4 FBS teams to Moscow every year (and a FCS team to round out the home schedule), because they haven't tried that.


But thanks for the research.

[darell1976]

I'm not going to pretend to know the extent of their "FBS Investment" and won't spend time researching it. Can someone explain how, given their tiny stadium, they have invested much into FBS status? Obviously, as Darell pointed out, they are not attracting teams to their house. What attendance they do have could be reached at the FCS level. Gauranteed TV revenues I suppose, but that goes away when the WAC folds. No other FBS conference wants them, and as an Independent, they are certainly NOT going to attract TV deals. I'm pretty sure this is that ONE situation where a drop down makes sense. Or, they just drop the program.

Exactly plus with losing season after losing season with only a couple years of sucess you aren't going to have sellouts. Boise State guaranteed a good attendance mark but now thats gone and I would think the common Vandal fan is going to lose interest if Idaho keeps hosting FCS teams and the new WAC opponents.

[MplsBison]

I'm not going to pretend to know the extent of their "FBS Investment" and won't spend time researching it. Can someone explain how, given their tiny stadium, they have invested much into FBS status? Obviously, as Darell pointed out, they are not attracting teams to their house. What attendance they do have could be reached at the FCS level. Gauranteed TV revenues I suppose, but that goes away when the WAC folds. No other FBS conference wants them, and as an Independent, they are certainly NOT going to attract TV deals. I'm pretty sure this is that ONE situation where a drop down makes sense. Or, they just drop the program.

Well my main point is that I see them dropping football rather than going to the Big Sky.

Look at it from the accounting point of view. Why would you drop your "flagship" sport down to a lower classification and then expect it to be able to continue breaking even on money when you're still looking at mostly charter plane trips for conference games? Why bother with that to take the hit to your school's pride and perception? Just drop the sport.

I fear that could be the ultimate outcome, but hopefully they'll at least give FBS indy a shot for a couple years.

[darell1976]

Or put another way: since 2007 they've scheduled two non-conference home games every year (and I assume two road games as well). Every single one of those years they've been successful in getting an FBS team to travel to Moscow.

So the only real conclusion is that we have no idea what their success would be in attracting 4 FBS teams to Moscow every year (and a FCS team to round out the home schedule), because they haven't tried that.


But thanks for the research.

I couldn't see Idaho paying a lot of money to get North Dakota or Bowling Green to come to Moscow. You won't see Alabama or UCLA go to Moscow unless its in Russia.

[TheRevSFA]

Well my main point is that I see them dropping football rather than going to the Big Sky.

Look at it from the accounting point of view. Why would you drop your "flagship" sport down to a lower classification and then expect it to be able to continue breaking even on money when you're still looking at mostly charter plane trips for conference games? Why bother with that to take the hit to your school's pride and perception? Just drop the sport.

I fear that could be the ultimate outcome, but hopefully they'll at least give FBS indy a shot for a couple years.

11K fans..so what pride and perception are you talking about? Most people's perception of Idaho Vandal football is "Who?"

[bojeta]

Well my main point is that I see them dropping football rather than going to the Big Sky.

Look at it from the accounting point of view. Why would you drop your "flagship" sport down to a lower classification and then expect it to be able to continue breaking even on money when you're still looking at mostly charter plane trips for conference games? Why bother with that to take the hit to your school's pride and perception? Just drop the sport.

I fear that could be the ultimate outcome, but hopefully they'll at least give FBS indy a shot for a couple years.

I suspect you're correct. Especially when you consider they would be ineligible for FCS playoffs for several years following the drop down.

[darell1976]

Well my main point is that I see them dropping football rather than going to the Big Sky.

Look at it from the accounting point of view. Why would you drop your "flagship" sport down to a lower classification and then expect it to be able to continue breaking even on money when you're still looking at mostly charter plane trips for conference games? Why bother with that to take the hit to your school's pride and perception? Just drop the sport.

I fear that could be the ultimate outcome, but hopefully they'll at least give FBS indy a shot for a couple years.

And for an accounting point of view why would spend your last 2 cents instead of trying to upgrade your facilities (BSA, new turf at the Fargodome) plus more money overall it will cost NDSU to move up to the FBS and play in a lower tier conference that is on life support (WAC).

[darell1976]

I suspect you're correct. Especially when you consider they would be ineligible for FCS playoffs for several years following the drop down.

What is the timeline? I didn't know there was a waiting period for moving down unlike the 5 year moving up period (DII to FCS).

[bojeta]

What is the timeline? I didn't know there was a waiting period for moving down unlike the 5 year moving up period (DII to FCS).

Darell, I haven't checked, but there would have to be one. They are still operating with the additional scholarship players. That would certainly have to cycle out before being eligible, wouldn't it? Someone who's up on the rules please chime in.

[darell1976]

Darell, I haven't checked, but there would have to be one. They are still operating with the additional scholarship players. That would certainly have to cycle out before being eligible, wouldn't it? Someone who's up on the rules please chime in.

That does make sense unless the NCAA tells them to trim the roster like the NFL.

[bojeta]

That does make sense unless the NCAA tells them to trim the roster like the NFL.

Not saying you're wrong. I haven't checked, but wouldn't any team love to trim their roster to just those players that panned out? Let's say N. Dakota or Cal Poly drops to DII. The only condition is they get rid of a certain number of players (even scholly players). You just take your perpetually injured and underperforming selections and delete them. You're left with the cream of the crop and dominate the lower division. Not fair in my book.

[darell1976]

Not saying you're wrong. I haven't checked, but wouldn't any team love to trim their roster to just those players that panned out? Let's say N. Dakota or Cal Poly drops to DII. The only condition is they get rid of a certain number of players (even scholly players). You just take your perpetually injured and underperforming selections and delete them. You're left with the cream of the crop and dominate the lower division. Not fair in my book.

True.

[dgtw]

I would think there would have to be a certain timeline by which they'd have to be down to 63 scholarships. I would imagine they'd be required to honor scholarships of anyone currently on board. The NCAA may have a rule or may just have to make something up since this is a rare occurrence. Yes, you'd be ineligible for the playoffs for a couple years, but that's life.

Just looking at the Big Sky's Wikipedia page, I think they'd be a good fit for them. They'd have an in state rival and you could easily split the conference into seven team divisions for football. Not sure how you'd handle basketball since the football only teams would be in the Southern Division.

[bobcathpdevil56]

I was a little young to remember the Ol' Big Sky (back when they used to buck), but was Idaho and Idaho State a pretty big rivalry? That could be a good selling point to bring them back into the FCS

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

Montana was Idaho's big rival back in the day, We used to battle for the Little Brown Stein every year.

[MplsBison]

I couldn't see Idaho paying a lot of money to get North Dakota or Bowling Green to come to Moscow. You won't see Alabama or UCLA go to Moscow unless its in Russia.

Bowling Green is in the MAC. They wouldn't be paying any FBS team to come to Idaho, it would be home and home deals or 2-for-1 deals with larger teams.

You're correct that they wouldn't be able to pay much to bring in NDSU. However, we did agree to go to Wyoming in 2008 and now Colorado St in 2012 for less than $300k. Be interesting to know what they're paying Eastern Wash.A team like that or Idaho St, which bring in very little revenue for home games, might even accept less than $200k for going to Moscow.

Obviously Alabama and UCLA aren't going there. That doesn't even make sense.

[MplsBison]

11K fans..so what pride and perception are you talking about? Most people's perception of Idaho Vandal football is "Who?"

National perception. Pride of Idaho alumni knowing their school sponsors football at the highest NCAA classification. Etc.

You, of course, know exactly what I mean.

[RabidRabbit]

Seems that Idaho would pick up three good rivals, ID St, Montana, EWU by joining the Big Sky. Boise St has moved way beyond having a rivalry with ID, with joining the Big East in football.

[MplsBison]

And for an accounting point of view why would spend your last 2 cents instead of trying to upgrade your facilities (BSA, new turf at the Fargodome) plus more money overall it will cost NDSU to move up to the FBS and play in a lower tier conference that is on life support (WAC).

No one is saying NDSU should move to the WAC. The WAC is probably dead.

NDSU's only hope of FBS is the MAC, for now. Maybe one day there will be more Illinois schools in FBS and a new MVFC-like conference can be created that would reach into Iowa and the Dakotas.

[MplsBison]

Darell, I haven't checked, but there would have to be one. They are still operating with the additional scholarship players. That would certainly have to cycle out before being eligible, wouldn't it? Someone who's up on the rules please chime in.

It seems like there would have to be some rule, but on the other hand no one who was a fully fledged FBS member has ever moved to FCS. So there has been no need to define a rule.

[MplsBison]

Not saying you're wrong. I haven't checked, but wouldn't any team love to trim their roster to just those players that panned out? Let's say N. Dakota or Cal Poly drops to DII. The only condition is they get rid of a certain number of players (even scholly players). You just take your perpetually injured and underperforming selections and delete them. You're left with the cream of the crop and dominate the lower division. Not fair in my book.

Both FBS and FCS have the same limit for the number of players that can receive scholarship money (85). The difference is just the total number of scholarships 63 vs 85. So they could still give scholarships to the same number of players while reducing the dollar amounts across the board.

[MplsBison]

Seems that Idaho would pick up three good rivals, ID St, Montana, EWU by joining the Big Sky. Boise St has moved way beyond having a rivalry with ID, with joining the Big East in football.

Boise St to Big East is not a done deal. It's a stupid move, in fact, whose only purpose was to get Boise into a BCS auto-bid conference.

Auto bids are officially dead. Big East conf champion has no automatic access to any bowls, other than for the contracts the Big East has with bowls themselves. Therefore, it's stupid for Boise to play cross-country for nothing. They're better off staying the MWC and fighting the good fight.



That said, Idaho would pick up a lot of good rivals by playing in the RMAC or Frontier conferences as well. Why not drop down to DII or NAIA and reduce costs even further?

[dgtw]

Both FBS and FCS have the same limit for the number of players that can receive scholarship money (85). The difference is just the total number of scholarships 63 vs 85. So they could still give scholarships to the same number of players while reducing the dollar amounts across the board.

That being the case, it shouldn't be too hard to get into line with FCS rules. For the sake of argument, let's say they have 17 players in each class and 17 redshirts. So after next season, they'd be down to 68 guys on scholarship. Most likely, they'd have fewer than 68 anyway so they'd have one year, at most, where they'd be over the limit.

I could see the NCAA declaring them a transitional member, even if they were under the 63 limit, since they'd have been recruiting (supposedly) better players since they had the FBS banner to recruit under.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As if Idaho's extra scholarships would give them a Big Sky title in their first year xlolx xlolx xlolx

[youwouldno]

It's true that moving to FCS is problematic in some respects, but most fans think only in terms of football when there is a lot more to it. Where will Idaho's other sports go? The Great West? That would be a death sentence for their entire athletic department. They just do not have a lot of options.

Every Big Sky member (including affiliates) sponsors FCS football. Why would the BSC take Idaho as a non-football affiliate? For their women's swimming team? Idaho brings nothing to the table without football. I don't see how they really have a choice. Their administration will just have to be honest and explain going FCS in football was literally the only option, and hey, now maybe they will actually win some games.

[TheRevSFA]

National perception. Pride of Idaho alumni knowing their school sponsors football at the highest NCAA classification. Etc.

You, of course, know exactly what I mean.

Very few people perceive the Idaho Vandals as anything except for a cupcake on their schedule.

That's great perception to have.

The pride of Idaho is Boise State...not the Vandals.

[MplsBison]

Very few people perceive the Idaho Vandals as anything except for a cupcake on their schedule.

That's great perception to have.

The pride of Idaho is Boise State...not the Vandals.

Moving down doesn't help.

[TheRevSFA]

It's true that moving to FCS is problematic in some respects, but most fans think only in terms of football when there is a lot more to it. Where will Idaho's other sports go? The Great West? That would be a death sentence for their entire athletic department. They just do not have a lot of options.

Every Big Sky member (including affiliates) sponsors FCS football. Why would the BSC take Idaho as a non-football affiliate? For their women's swimming team? Idaho brings nothing to the table without football. I don't see how they really have a choice. Their administration will just have to be honest and explain going FCS in football was literally the only option, and hey, now maybe they will actually win some games.

I would say the WCC..but that goes against the private school base that they have.

[TheRevSFA]

Moving down doesn't help.

Moving down doesn't hurt either. Moving down gives them back their rivalries.

[youwouldno]

I would say the WCC..but that goes against the private school base that they have.

The WCC wouldn't take them. No one except the Great West would, and that's a mess of a conference that is disintegrating as well.

Idaho definitely wants to stay D-I. Joining the Big Sky in all sports is probably the only viable option.

[TheRevSFA]

The WCC wouldn't take them. No one except the Great West would, and that's a mess of a conference that is disintegrating as well.

Idaho definitely wants to stay D-I. Joining the Big Sky in all sports is probably the only viable option.

Perks to joining Big Sky - brings back the yearly rivalry with Montana and with ID State..thus filling that closet that is the Kibbie Dome. Also cuts down on travel costs as they join a regional conference, while flying for bodybag games to get payment from FBS teams.

The down side - it's not FBS (I'm saving Mlps a post by putting his argument)

The U needs to decide and do it pretty damn quick.

[DFW HOYA]

Here's a solution: I-A independent, but play the min. number of games with I-A schools (six) and backfill with Big Sky and MVC opponents. Join Big Sky in all other sports.

[youwouldno]

Here's a solution: I-A independent, but play the min. number of games with I-A schools (six) and backfill with Big Sky and MVC opponents. Join Big Sky in all other sports.

Big Sky won't take them without football.

[dgtw]

So what will become of New Mexico State, if someone doesn't throw them a lifeline? Where will Seattle and Denver land?

[TheRevSFA]

So what will become of New Mexico State, if someone doesn't throw them a lifeline? Where will Seattle and Denver land?

Las Cruces newspaper referenced the Southland, but that's way too far out of our footprint. Here's to hoping the MWC tosses them a line.

[youwouldno]

I think NMSU's best shot is the Sun Belt... not a perfect fit but it would go OK with the western schools. El Paso isn't too far airport-wise.

[MplsBison]

Moving down doesn't hurt either. Moving down gives them back their rivalries.

Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

[MplsBison]

Here's a solution: I-A independent, but play the min. number of games with I-A schools (six) and backfill with Big Sky and MVC opponents. Join Big Sky in all other sports.

It's reasonable, especially if Seattle and Denver also join the Big Sky as non-football members.

Although jeez, you'd like to think that the WCC would help out and take at least Seattle. Denver could be Big Sky bound, regardless.

[youwouldno]

Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

Life isn't always fair. That's just the reality they face. How happy would people be if they dropped to D-III? Certainly not happier than being in the Big Sky.

[MplsBison]

Las Cruces newspaper referenced the Southland, but that's way too far out of our footprint. Here's to hoping the MWC tosses them a line.

Again, the investment in FBS has been made. NMSU actually used to be in the hunt for the Sun Belt title with North Texas. Times have changed...but not to the point were boosters are going to accept schlepping down to FCS.

[MplsBison]

Life isn't always fair. That's just the reality they face. How happy would people be if they dropped to D-III? Certainly not happier than being in the Big Sky.

No. At that point, you're talking just dropping the program and being a bball school. That's the decision they're going to be facing. Let Boise be the football school and try to focus on bball like Gonzaga.

[TheRevSFA]

Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

There is currently a facebook poll put out by VandalNation.

The choices are - Go Indy, Join MWC, and Join Big Sky.

Guess which one is winning?

But if you want to sway the masses, you can go post on their board.

[youwouldno]

No. At that point, you're talking just dropping the program and being a bball school. That's the decision they're going to be facing. Let Boise be the football school and try to focus on bball like Gonzaga.

That's nice in theory, except for one problem: there is no conference that will take them. They don't have anything going for them at all. All of your ideas are just moot for that basic reason.

[MplsBison]

That's nice in theory, except for one problem: there is no conference that will take them. They don't have anything going for them at all. All of your ideas are just moot for that basic reason.

Then division I independent it is. Utah Valley St did it.

[MplsBison]

There is currently a facebook poll put out by VandalNation.

The choices are - Go Indy, Join MWC, and Join Big Sky.

Guess which one is winning?

But if you want to sway the masses, you can go post on their board.

Facebook. that's nice

[youwouldno]

Then division I independent it is. Utah Valley St did it.

Alternative 1: no football, huge problems for every other sport

Alternative 2: FCS football, stable league for all sports

You may prefer (1), but there is zero chance Idaho will, or any sane person for that matter. Not everyone hates FCS enough to destroy their entire athletic department over it.

[dgtw]

Just looking at maps on Wikipedia, it seems NMSU's best fit would be the Southland, if they can't get into a FBS league. They'd be in range of the Big Sky, though travel would be a female dog. This is a program whose last bowl game was during the waning days of the Eisenhower administration. They don't need to be too snooty about what classification they are in.

Seattle would seem to fit in the WCC, they are a Catholic school and were once a member of that league.

[TheRevSFA]

Then division I independent it is. Utah Valley St did it.

Idaho won't drop their flagship sport.

[344Johnson]

Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

I'm guessing there football boosters won't care. They are probably tired of seeing their team get pounded on a regular basis. After a few years, and they have a solid-good Big Sky team, I'm sure the football boosters would be perfectly content.

[Squealofthepig]

A lot of the Vandal supporters do miss the old Little Brown Stein rivalry with Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Brown_Stein) (which has been played 84 times) (just anecdotal stuff I've heard from the few Idaho fans I've bumped into here).

Key issues for Idaho: Dropping football attendance (averaged 12,546 last year); being an independent; lack of close FBS schools to play; a larger Big Sky Conference probably shuts down a game or two just based on available open dates. Dropping back down probably has just as many issues, including a Big Sky conference that might not have room for another member.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

A lot of the Vandal supporters do miss the old Little Brown Stein rivalry with Montana (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_Brown_Stein) (which has been played 84 times) (just anecdotal stuff I've heard from the few Idaho fans I've bumped into here).

Key issues for Idaho: Dropping football attendance (averaged 12,546 last year); being an independent; lack of close FBS schools to play; a larger Big Sky Conference probably shuts down a game or two just based on available open dates. Dropping back down probably has just as many issues, including a Big Sky conference that might not have room for another member.

How would we not? This has been one of the reasons I've thought they went with the football only membership for some Cali schools all along. It strenthens the most lucrative sport but doesn't mees with the other sports and scheduling a whole lot. The BSC definitely has a spot available for them because they were planning on USD when they decided to do the expansion.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

What hurts more than that is this. What you claim to be so is not. The perception of some boosters would be as you say but the perception of others wouldn't. All boosters don't like it so why only the perception of some would matter is confusing?

The reality is that more fans were there when they were in the BSC. That perceived perception is outweighed by reality.

There is more pride in being competitive and winning within your group of contemporaries than just taking it on the chin amongst those you do not have the capability of competing with financially.

[MplsBison]

Alternative 1: no football, huge problems for every other sport

Alternative 2: FCS football, stable league for all sports

You may prefer (1), but there is zero chance Idaho will, or any sane person for that matter. Not everyone hates FCS enough to destroy their entire athletic department over it.

Not at all. There's no guarantee whatsoever that the Big Sky would take Idaho if they would agree to participate in the football conference.

On the other hand, the WAC could well survive as a non-football conference with New Mexico St, Seattle, Denver and Great West schools. It wouldn't be pretty, but they'd be able to maintain their AQ's to NCAA DI tournaments and they'd have the money from the credits that Nevada and Utah St have earned.

Moreover, it's a conference they could actually have a chance of winning. They could string together some NCAA tournament appearances, get booster support for the program, build a new arena, etc. while Boise focuses all its energy trying to push the football team over the BCS wall.

[MplsBison]

What hurts more than that is this. What you claim to be so is not. The perception of some boosters would be as you say but the perception of others wouldn't. All boosters don't like it so why only the perception of some would matter is confusing?

The reality is that more fans were there when they were in the BSC. That perceived perception is outweighed by reality.

There is more pride in being competitive and winning within your group of contemporaries than just taking it on the chin amongst those you do not have the capability of competing with financially.

Maybe they should've stayed in the Big Sky all along and they were foolish to follow Boise and Nevada. But they did. The investment was made. The move was made. They can't go back now. No one has ever done it - why should Idaho be the first to have to hang their heads in failure?


Do you go backwards in the buffet line often? You either plow ahead or get out of line. I see them dropping the sport, but I hold hopes they'll give Indy a shot or maybe by a miracle Benson will save them with a Sun Belt football only invite.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Maybe they should've stayed in the Big Sky all along and they were foolish to follow Boise and Nevada. But they did. The investment was made. The move was made. They can't go back now. No one has ever done it - why should Idaho be the first to have to hang their heads in failure?


Do you go backwards in the buffet line often? You either plow ahead or get out of line. I see them dropping the sport, but I hold hopes they'll give Indy a shot or maybe by a miracle Benson will save them with a Sun Belt football only invite.

All possibilities, even the one you don't see as a possibility.

since it's the buffet analogy I'll say that you might overextend on buying a car because you thought you were something you weren't or didn't achieve what you thought financially. You could go car-less altogether or you could work way into something that actually fits within your budget and be smart about it. I believe in the real world we've witnessed a whole lot of both those sorts of things in the last few years with homes, vehicles, boats, etc...

Seems a little more relevant than the buffet but to each his own.

[MplsBison]

All possibilities, even the one you don't see as a possibility.

since it's the buffet analogy I'll say that you might overextend on buying a car because you thought you were something you weren't or didn't achieve what you thought financially. You could go car-less altogether or you could work way into something that actually fits within your budget and be smart about it. I believe in the real world we've witnessed a whole lot of both those sorts of things in the last few years with homes, vehicles, boats, etc...

Seems a little more relevant than the buffet but to each his own.

I've never said that Idaho going back to the Big Sky isn't logical. It's perfectly logical. You're analogy is unneeded.

This ain't about logic. It's about ethos. It's about appearance. It's not a greater than/less than algorithm.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Las Cruces newspaper referenced the Southland, but that's way too far out of our footprint. Here's to hoping the MWC tosses them a line.

Oh?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It's reasonable, especially if Seattle and Denver also join the Big Sky as non-football members.

Although jeez, you'd like to think that the WCC would help out and take at least Seattle. Denver could be Big Sky bound, regardless.

I'm guessing you didn't realize that Seattle burned a lot of bridges with the WCC when they originally left in 1980. They only even went to the WAC after the WCC basically spurned them.

[MplsBison]

I'm guessing you didn't realize that Seattle burned a lot of bridges with the WCC when they originally left in 1980. They only even went to the WAC after the WCC basically spurned them.

What's that? I couldn't hear you all the way over there in the eastern united states.

Didn't realize you were a western US college sports insider back in the 80's.

[TheRevSFA]

Oh?

Very small blurb and probably has zero significance

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-sports/ci_20524675/commentary-surveying-conference-realignment-field-aggies

[Lehigh Football Nation]

What's that? I couldn't hear you all the way over there in the eastern united states.

Didn't realize you were a western US college sports insider back in the 80's.

That would be my colleague. But it's called Google, you should try it sometime.

[Ginsbach]

MplsBison has no idea about how people in Idaho feel.


Yes it hurts, obviously that was the point. It hurts their perception, alumni pride and the bottom line.

They don't see Montana and Idaho St as rivalries. Those might as well be DII schools.


What football boosters they have will leave in disgust. I would.

You are incredibly wrong here.

[MplsBison]

MplsBison has no idea about how people in Idaho feel.



You are incredibly wrong here.

How are you disproving what I said?

You, an Idaho St fan, feel insulted that Idaho - an FBS school in your state, above your school - doesn't consider your school as potential rival being a compelling reason to move down to the Big Sky. That doesn't disprove me in the slightest. It confirms what I've said actually.

[MplsBison]

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/359568/group/Sports/


It makes for a natural buffer that Idaho doesn’t have: reasonable accessible competition. The Vandals do not appear to have an immediate league home, and speculation is they eventually would have to move back down a division and try to get back into the Big Sky Conference.

Peloquin said that would be a last-ditch scenario, saying independent status or some sort of scheduling alliance would probably be the first options.

“I see Idaho remaining an independent for five or six years, using pride as a motivator,” he said.

Someone has been reading my posts! You in here Matt? Back me up, brother!

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Matt P. quoted as a source? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I love how his advice would absolutely run Idaho into the ground. Indy for six years? Really?

[darell1976]

Matt P. quoted as a source? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I love how his advice would absolutely run Idaho into the ground. Indy for six years? Really?

Fans would demand Idaho find any conference even if it meant going back to the Big Sky.

[TheRevSFA]

Staple playoff teams Georgia Southern and Massachusetts have announced intentions of moving to the Division I Football Bowl Subdivision, with UMass’ move already in the books and GSU’s in the planning phases. Appalachian State and Villanova have also made waves in recent years by moving from the

63-scholarship FCS to the

85-scholarship FBS.



Uh..Appy State has already moved? Did anyone tell them?

[Ginsbach]

How are you disproving what I said?

You, an Idaho St fan, feel insulted that Idaho - an FBS school in your state, above your school - doesn't consider your school as potential rival being a compelling reason to move down to the Big Sky. That doesn't disprove me in the slightest. It confirms what I've said actually.

I don't feel Idaho is above my school. I have a number of colleagues who I work with and collaborate at the U of I and they are on a fairly equal level with us as it is.

The matter of fact is that no one outside of Moscow cares about Vandal football. That being said, hardly anyone in Moscow cares about Vandal football. The only college football team with any sort of fan support in the entire state is Boise State. Go to Pocatello, Idaho Falls, or Moscow. Broncos apparel outnumbers Bengals or Vandals gear significantly.

The few fans that do support Idaho do not think themselves above Montana, ISU, or any of the Big Sky schools. It's a more natural fit for the school in terms of geography and similar institutions.

[AmsterBison]

Fans would demand Idaho find any conference even if it meant going back to the Big Sky.

Fans, by nature, are not exceptionally rational decision-makers when it comes to changing subdivisions (or nicknames, apparently.)

BTW, wouldn't adding Idaho be good for the Big Sky scheduling-wise? It makes UND less of an obvious odd man out.

[superman7515]

That being the case, it shouldn't be too hard to get into line with FCS rules. For the sake of argument, let's say they have 17 players in each class and 17 redshirts. So after next season, they'd be down to 68 guys on scholarship. Most likely, they'd have fewer than 68 anyway so they'd have one year, at most, where they'd be over the limit.

I could see the NCAA declaring them a transitional member, even if they were under the 63 limit, since they'd have been recruiting (supposedly) better players since they had the FBS banner to recruit under.

The NCAA didn't do that to Winston Salem State. They were in the MEAC in 2008, 2009, and 2010 and then moved back to the CIAA and parlayed their three years of D1 football players into a 10-0 regular season and D2 final four playoff appearance in 2011.

[MplsBison]

Matt P. quoted as a source? xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx

I love how his advice would absolutely run Idaho into the ground. Indy for six years? Really?

Look at the green eyed monster on LFN! It's too bad no one ever contacts you to be an expert source.

Maybe if you actually had something to lose when you write your extended message board posts on that blog, which you don't pay anything to have hosted.

[MplsBison]

Fans would demand Idaho find any conference even if it meant going back to the Big Sky.

Fans don't have a say in it, other than choosing to buy tickets. If Idaho gets decent home games and wins, the same number of fans will keep showing up.

The accountants, on the other hand, might force Idaho to drop football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Look at the green eyed monster on LFN! It's too bad no one ever contacts you to be an expert source.

Maybe if you actually had something to lose when you write your extended message board posts on that blog, which you don't pay anything to have hosted.

Get the link right:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

Judging by the so-called experts people are calling "sources", I'm glad I'm not associated with them.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The accountants, on the other hand, might force Idaho to drop football.

And your advocacy for Idaho to be an independent for six years would have nothing to do with that, if they followed your advice. Yeah. Sure.

[MplsBison]

I don't feel Idaho is above my school. I have a number of colleagues who I work with and collaborate at the U of I and they are on a fairly equal level with us as it is.

The matter of fact is that no one outside of Moscow cares about Vandal football. That being said, hardly anyone in Moscow cares about Vandal football. The only college football team with any sort of fan support in the entire state is Boise State. Go to Pocatello, Idaho Falls, or Moscow. Broncos apparel outnumbers Bengals or Vandals gear significantly.

The few fans that do support Idaho do not think themselves above Montana, ISU, or any of the Big Sky schools. It's a more natural fit for the school in terms of geography and similar institutions.

If you really think these things true, then you're a very dishonest person.

You know well that Idaho is above Idaho State. Idaho is the flagship, land grant public university of the state. Idaho State was just a technical college.

And obviously Idaho fans know they're above Big Sky schools. They left the Big Sky for that very reason, to pursue football onwards and upwards from the Big Sky. They still are above the Big Sky, they're FBS. Until this changes, they will continue to be.

[MplsBison]

The NCAA didn't do that to Winston Salem State. They were in the MEAC in 2008, 2009, and 2010 and then moved back to the CIAA and parlayed their three years of D1 football players into a 10-0 regular season and D2 final four playoff appearance in 2011.

But that makes sense. The reason you have to wait in going from DII to DI is that DII has looser academic and eligibility standards.

Going from DI to DII means all your players recruited to those tighter DI standards would obviously qualify in DII.


They just had to make sure the scholarship money they were awarding to those players complied with the DII limitations. But I can see how some (or maybe most) of the players were willing to take less money and stay at the school, instead of transferring.

[MplsBison]

Get the link right:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

Judging by the so-called experts people are calling "sources", I'm glad I'm not associated with them.

Good, because you're not.

You're not an expert, not a source and certainly not a journalist.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If you really think these things true, then you're a very dishonest person.

You know well that Idaho is above Idaho State. Idaho is the flagship, land grant public university of the state. Idaho State was just a technical college.

And obviously Idaho fans know they're above Big Sky schools. They left the Big Sky for that very reason, to pursue football onwards and upwards from the Big Sky. They still are above the Big Sky, they're FBS. Until this changes, they will continue to be.

How's that working out for them?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Good, because you're not.

You're not an expert, not a source and certainly not a journalist.

Whatever you say, Mr. Pulitzer.

[MplsBison]

I don't think the WAC is giving up the ghost quite yet...there may be more to this story.

I'll start a new thread, that it deserves. Enough of this hogwash about Idaho being dragged down to the Big Sky.


There seem to be a lot of people here desperate to do just that. As if it will single handedly justify the existence of the FCS.

[MplsBison]

Whatever you say, Mr. Pulitzer.

I don't have a blog and pretend that people care it read it, such that each new entry needs to have its own thread on AGS.

[MplsBison]

How's that working out for them?

They're the flagship, research university of the state of Idaho. They're in FBS. Seems ok so far.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't have a blog and pretend that people care it read it, such that each new entry needs to have its own thread on AGS.

I don't need your approval to do anything. Though I appreciate the free publicity. Cheers.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com
http://www.college-sports-journal.com

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They're the flagship, research university of the state of Idaho. They're in FBS. Seems ok so far.

How much money are they making?

Isn't there some other Idaho university with blue turf or something?

No, really, this is way too easy.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com
http://www.college-sports-journal.com

[MplsBison]

How much money are they making?

Isn't there some other Idaho university with blue turf or something?

No, really, this is way too easy.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com
http://www.college-sports-journal.com

Idaho has $210 million endowment, Boise $78M, ID St $17M. (wikipedia)

FY09 reported research expenditures to NSF: ID $88M, Boise $12M, ID St $20M

[TheRevSFA]

Good, because you're not.

You're not an expert, not a source and certainly not a journalist.

Yet you are, at all things football?

[MplsBison]

Yet you are, at all things football?

Most certainly I'm not any of those things.

Point was, I don't pretend I am - like LFN does.

[TheRevSFA]

Idaho has $210 million endowment, Boise $78M, ID St $17M. (wikipedia)

FY09 reported research expenditures to NSF: ID $88M, Boise $12M, ID St $20M

210 million endowment devoted to academia..not athletics.

Kinda like MIT has a 9.9 Billion dollar endowment..yet you don't see them at D1

[TheRevSFA]

Most certainly I'm not any of those things.

Point was, I don't pretend I am - like LFN does.

Ah but everything you post on here is correct while others are incorrect.

That must make you some expert then.

[No_Skill]

Idaho has $210 million endowment, Boise $78M, ID St $17M. (wikipedia)

FY09 reported research expenditures to NSF: ID $88M, Boise $12M, ID St $20M

Academic endowments and research expenditures are meaningless. All that matters is FBS football.

[MplsBison]

210 million endowment devoted to academia..not athletics.

Kinda like MIT has a 9.9 Billion dollar endowment..yet you don't see them at D1

Point was made. Idaho -IS- the land grant, flagship research university of the state of Idaho. End.

Boise and Pocatello were junior colleges.

[344Johnson]

If you really think these things true, then you're a very dishonest person.

You know well that Idaho is above Idaho State. Idaho is the flagship, land grant public university of the state. Idaho State was just a technical college.

And obviously Idaho fans know they're above Big Sky schools. They left the Big Sky for that very reason, to pursue football onwards and upwards from the Big Sky. They still are above the Big Sky, they're FBS. Until this changes, they will continue to be.

They are above the Big Sky eh? They'd probably get pounded by 2-3 of the Sky schools.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

They are above the Big Sky eh? They'd probably get pounded by 2-3 of the Sky schools.

Funny, I just put their record against the BSC in the last twelve games and it ain't better than most of their years record when they were part of it and those years included playing Boise & Nevada, they had a real chance to pad those stats with the OOC teams they selected and were not able to.

[Tod]

If you really think these things true, then you're a very dishonest person.

just had to point out perhaps the stupidest thing said by anyone, ever.

[MplsBison]

Funny, I just put their record against the BSC in the last twelve games and it ain't better than most of their years record when they were part of it and those years included playing Boise & Nevada, they had a real chance to pad those stats with the OOC teams they selected and were not able to.

No doubt they have not used their opportunities in being FBS to their full advantage. It takes a great coach too, to land players who will win in the division.

But they're still FBS. They still have doors open to them that Big Sky schools don't.

[MplsBison]

just had to point out perhaps the stupidest thing said by anyone, ever.

Not even close.

He was basically lying through his teeth. He knows that Idaho St was just at technical school and that the only flagship, land grant university in Idaho has always been and always will be the University of Idaho. You know know it too.

[TheRevSFA]

Not even close.

He was basically lying through his teeth. He knows that Idaho St was just at technical school and that the only flagship, land grant university in Idaho has always been and always will be the University of Idaho. You know know it too.

So UND is the flagship school of North Dakota then, and NDSU is just an Agg and Applied Sciences school, right?

So since UND is the flagship, they should be the ones to be considered to play FBS when the time comes for a school to be picked from North Dakota, because, as you have stated many times, the flagship is the most important school and should be at the forefront when it comes to academics and athletics.

[darell1976]

So UND is the flagship school of North Dakota then, and NDSU is just an Agg and Applied Sciences school, right?

Correct.:D

[MplsBison]

So UND is the flagship school of North Dakota then, and NDSU is just an Agg and Applied Sciences school, right?

So since UND is the flagship, they should be the ones to be considered to play FBS when the time comes for a school to be picked from North Dakota, because, as you have stated many times, the flagship is the most important school and should be at the forefront when it comes to academics and athletics.

I knew you'd try this trick.

ND has two flagships for the simple reason that NDSU is the land grant. In the state of Idaho, they decided to give the land grant to the University of Idaho, rather than starting a new school to specifically fulfill the land grant mission. Several other states follow the same method, such as Iowa, Michigan, etc. While many states do have a single flagship & land grant (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois).

Still more confusing yet is the fact that in some states with a single flagship & land grant school the school is called [State name] State University instead of University of [State name], such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Louisiana. And finally, other states have schools called [State name] State University even though they're neither flagship nor land grant, like Idaho, South Carolina, Illinois. Of course every rule has an exception. Arizona State and Florida State are not land grants, but they are considered flagship schools in their states because they grew so large and gain so much prominence. Boise St could maybe be considered the same, but their academics are very low.

[darell1976]

I knew you'd try this trick.

ND has two flagships for the simple reason that NDSU is the land grant. In the state of Idaho, they decided to give the land grant to the University of Idaho, rather than starting a new school to specifically fulfill the land grant mission. Several other states follow the same method, such as Iowa, Michigan, etc. While many states do have a single flagship & land grant (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois).

Still more confusing yet is the fact that in some states with a single flagship & land grant school the school is called [State name] State University instead of University of [State name], such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Louisiana. And finally, other states have schools called [State name] State University even though they're neither flagship nor land grant, like Idaho, South Carolina, Illinois. Of course every rule has an exception. Arizona State and Florida State are not land grants, but they are considered flagship schools in their states because they grew so large and gain so much prominence. Boise St could maybe be considered the same, but their academics are very low.

UND is a space grant school.:D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space_Grant_Colleges

[TheRevSFA]

I knew you'd try this trick.

ND has two flagships for the simple reason that NDSU is the land grant. In the state of Idaho, they decided to give the land grant to the University of Idaho, rather than starting a new school to specifically fulfill the land grant mission. Several other states follow the same method, such as Iowa, Michigan, etc. While many states do have a single flagship & land grant (Minnesota, Wisconsin, Illinois).

Still more confusing yet is the fact that in some states with a single flagship & land grant school the school is called [State name] State University instead of University of [State name], such as Ohio, Pennsylvania, Louisiana. And finally, other states have schools called [State name] State University even though they're neither flagship nor land grant, like Idaho, South Carolina, Illinois. Of course every rule has an exception. Arizona State and Florida State are not land grants, but they are considered flagship schools in their states because they grew so large and gain so much prominence. Boise St could maybe be considered the same, but their academics are very low.

Ah, but you said earlier (in another thread) that Texas State - San Marcos was the obvious flagship because of size.

By default then, even though you say there are two flagships, UND is the actual flagship of the North Dakota system.

Remember, I came to this conclusion using your logic, so don't get upset.

[TheRevSFA]

So, by Mlps' logic, UND should be the flagship only because it's the oldest university, has the highest enrollment, and the system is named after them.

Agree?

(btw other Bison fans, I'm just doing this to show how asinine he is..but I'm sure most of you have figured this out)

[darell1976]

Ah, but you said earlier (in another thread) that Texas State - San Marcos was the obvious flagship because of size.

By default then, even though you say there are two flagships, UND is the actual flagship of the North Dakota system.

Remember, I came to this conclusion using your logic, so don't get upset.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship#Education


Berdahl contends that because of their age, the flagship institutions of a university system are often the largest and best financed and are perceived as elite relative to non-flagship state schools.[4] He comments that "Those of us in "systems" of higher education are frequently actively discouraged from using the term "flagship" to refer to our campuses because it is seen as hurtful to the self-esteem of colleagues at other institutions in our systems. The use of the term is seen by some as elitist and boastful. It is viewed by many, in the context of the politics of higher education, as 'politically incorrect.' ... Only in the safe company of alumni is one permitted to use the term


In other words don't say UND is the flagship of North Dakota because NDSU's feelings would be hurt.

A list of flagship universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_State s

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/02/16/1996968/state-board-of-education-removes.html


The University of Idaho was founded in 1889, a year before statehood. But it can’t designate itself Idaho’s “flagship” university, and President Duane Nellis and Student Body President Samantha Perez aren’t happy.

The State Board of Education, which oversees state universities, voted unanimously Thursday to delete the word from the U of I’s mission statement. Nellis said the board’s decision followed objections from other state universities that thought the word was unfair to them. But the decision could have “negative connotations,” Nellis said.

[DFW HOYA]

Ah, but you said earlier (in another thread) that Texas State - San Marcos was the obvious flagship because of size.

SWT changed its name for potential enrollment gain, not because they are a true flagship school.
http://itemonline.com/local/x212536563/SHSU-graduate-appointed-as-regent

FWIW, Louisiana-Lafayette (nee SW Louisiana) tried to rename itself the "University of Louisiana" a while back until LSU's friends inbaton Rouge shot it down.

[TheRevSFA]

SWT changed its name for potential enrollment gain, not because they are a true flagship school.
http://itemonline.com/local/x212536563/SHSU-graduate-appointed-as-regent

FWIW, Louisiana-Lafayette (nee SW Louisiana) tried to rename itself the "University of Louisiana" a while back until LSU's friends inbaton Rouge shot it down.

Yep. I spent time on another thread teaching him about the Texas State University System.

Just proves he has no idea what he's talking about. I wish I could talk out of my *** as well as he does

[MplsBison]

Ah, but you said earlier (in another thread) that Texas State - San Marcos was the obvious flagship because of size.

By default then, even though you say there are two flagships, UND is the actual flagship of the North Dakota system.

Remember, I came to this conclusion using your logic, so don't get upset.

I said Texas St appears to be the best candidate flagship in the Texas State Uni System, because it has the size and now FBS status. That is true.

Then I explained how the land grant schools are flagships in their respective states. For example, Texas A&M is the land grant school of the state of Texas. It's a flagship of the state of Texas. Likewise, NDSU is the land grant school of the state of North Dakota. It's a flagship of the state of North Dakota.


Shouldn't be this hard...I must be a bad teacher.

[darell1976]

I said Texas St appears to be the best candidate flagship in the Texas State Uni System, because it has the size and now FBS status. That is true.

Then I explained how the land grant schools are flagships in their respective states. For example, Texas A&M is the land grant school of the state of Texas. It's a flagship of the state of Texas. Likewise, NDSU is the land grant school of the state of North Dakota. It's a flagship of the state of North Dakota.


Shouldn't be this hard...I must be a bad teacher.

No it isn't. A land grant college is NOT always a flagship of its state university system. The flagship of the NDUS is UND not NDSU. The Land Grant school for the State of Montana is Montana State but the flagship for the state is the U of Montana. For the state of South Carolina the land grants are Clemson, and SCSU, but the flagship is the U. of South Carolina.

Land Grant Universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities#Minnesota
Flagship universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_State s

[MplsBison]

No it isn't. A land grant college is NOT always a flagship of its state university system. The flagship of the NDUS is UND not NDSU. The Land Grant school for the State of Montana is Montana State but the flagship for the state is the U of Montana. For the state of South Carolina the land grants are Clemson, and SCSU, but the flagship is the U. of South Carolina.

Land Grant Universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_land-grant_universities#Minnesota
Flagship universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_State s

Dead wrong. Every of the original land grants (Morrill act) is a flagship in their state.

You can claim UND is the flagship of the NDUS, fine. But NDSU is a flagship of North Dakota because it's a land grant. You're a liar to claim otherwise. You know better and would be trying to deceive people.

[darell1976]

Dead wrong. Every of the original land grants (Morrill act) is a flagship in their state.

You can claim UND is the flagship of the NDUS, fine. But NDSU is a flagship of North Dakota because it's a land grant. You're a liar to claim otherwise. You know better and would be trying to deceive people.
http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Top_North_Dakota_Colleges_and_Universities.html


The University of North Dakota is a public educational institution and was founded in 1883. Located in Grand Forks, the University of North Dakota has an undergraduate student population of 10,125. The University of North Dakota is the flagship university in the state's public university system. It is also the oldest and largest university in the state. There are ten schools and colleges at the University of North Dakota: Aerospace Sciences, Arts and Sciences, Business and Public Administration, Education and Human Development, Engineering and Mines, Graduate School, Law, Medicine and Health Sciences, Nursing and Continuing Education. The undergraduate tuition for residents is $6,130 and $14,523 for non-residents.

Also since NDSU is a land grant and UND is a space grant does that cancel them both out?

[MplsBison]

http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Top_North_Dakota_Colleges_and_Universities.html



Also since NDSU is a land grant and UND is a space grant does that cancel them both out?

Like I said, you can claim that UND is the flagship of the NDUS all you want. NDSU is a flagship of the state because the state designated it as the land grant university for North Dakota, per the Morrill Act of 1862. It's a fact.

[344Johnson]

How bout we just call them both Flagships? Each school has areas that the other one does not. They are about the same size. I don't care what any technical definitions say. If people look at two schools as the premier State-funded institutions in the state, then they are both flagships.

Texas- Texas A&M
Montana- Montana State.
NDSU- UND

So what does any of this have to do with...oh...IDK...Idaho?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

How bout we just call them both Flagships? Each school has areas that the other one does not. They are about the same size. I don't care what any technical definitions say. If people look at two schools as the premier State-funded institutions in the state, then they are both flagships.

Texas- Texas A&M
Montana- Montana State.
NDSU- UND

So what does any of this have to do with...oh...IDK...Idaho?

I think it got here because Idaho is the flagship and is therefore superior in gaining athletes than the others and should be FBS and not look back no matter what the cost? Then MPLS' logic was turned against him. It's a small point from the begining as you suggest.

Anyway, here we are.:D

[biobengal]

Not even close.

He was basically lying through his teeth. He knows that Idaho St was just at technical school and that the only flagship, land grant university in Idaho has always been and always will be the University of Idaho. You know know it too.

Really, smart guy...... always is a very long time, see link below. Regardless, Idaho State has many things which suggest a prominent place in Idaho education including 1) the largest graduate school enrollment in the state, 2) state natural history museum, 3) only pharmacy school in the state, 4) extensive facilities in physical and biological sciences which includes nuclear reactors, particle accelerators, and even a potential medical school, 5) larger undergraduate enrollment than Idaho, 6) Carnegie classified Research University-High and 7) home to the leading expert on sasquatch.

Clearly, ISU has moved far beyond its turn of the century roots despite stiff opposition from Moscow and it lists universities like NDSU as a peer.... which is totally hilarious.

http://www.idahopress.com/news/state/university-of-idaho-fights-losing-flagship-designation/article_9a3377e0-5939-11e1-bfab-001871e3ce6c.html

http://www.isu.edu/instres/Peer/ISU%20Revised%20Peer%20List%202009.pdf

http://iac.isu.edu/

http://www.slideshare.net/garnergraham/medical-education-at-idaho-state-university-presentation

http://www2.isu.edu/headlines/?p=2902

[wapiti]

xpopcornx xslapfightx

[MplsBison]

How bout we just call them both Flagships? Each school has areas that the other one does not. They are about the same size. I don't care what any technical definitions say. If people look at two schools as the premier State-funded institutions in the state, then they are both flagships.

Texas- Texas A&M
Montana- Montana State.
NDSU- UND

So what does any of this have to do with...oh...IDK...Idaho?

Because Idaho only has one flagship, the University of Idaho, which was also designated the land grant university. In fact, I believe they used the provisions of the Morrill Act to actually start the University of Idaho.

[MplsBison]

Really, smart guy...... always is a very long time, see link below. Regardless, Idaho State has many things which suggest a prominent place in Idaho education including 1) the largest graduate school enrollment in the state, 2) state natural history museum, 3) only pharmacy school in the state, 4) extensive facilities in physical and biological sciences which includes nuclear reactors, particle accelerators, and even a potential medical school, 5) larger undergraduate enrollment than Idaho, 6) Carnegie classified Research University-High and 7) home to the leading expert on sasquatch.

Clearly, ISU has moved far beyond its turn of the century roots despite stiff opposition from Moscow and it lists universities like NDSU as a peer.... which is totally hilarious.

http://www.idahopress.com/news/state/university-of-idaho-fights-losing-flagship-designation/article_9a3377e0-5939-11e1-bfab-001871e3ce6c.html

http://www.isu.edu/instres/Peer/ISU%20Revised%20Peer%20List%202009.pdf

http://iac.isu.edu/

http://www.slideshare.net/garnergraham/medical-education-at-idaho-state-university-presentation

http://www2.isu.edu/headlines/?p=2902

Research High? It must not take much to get that status.

I posted the numbers for research expenditures. Not sure what all these graduate students are doing, but they sure as heck aren't helping their profs land any grants for...you know...research.

[TheBisonator]

http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Top_North_Dakota_Colleges_and_Universities.html



Also since NDSU is a land grant and UND is a space grant does that cancel them both out?

I'm sorry I'm diving back into the NDSU/UND piss contest, but the former Governor of ND John Hoeven once told me personally that according to the opinion of the ND State Board of Higher Education, NDSU and UND are co-flagships.

[darell1976]

I'm sorry I'm diving back into the NDSU/UND piss contest, but the former Governor of ND John Hoeven once told me personally that according to the opinion of the ND State Board of Higher Education, NDSU and UND are co-flagships.

Fine they can be co-flagships. I like that NDSU is the land grant and UND is the space grant. We can have Lake Region (Devils Lake) as the water grant.;)

[Tod]

Not even close.

He was basically lying through his teeth. He knows that Idaho St was just at technical school and that the only flagship, land grant university in Idaho has always been and always will be the University of Idaho. You know know it too.

You said "If you really think these things true, then you're a very dishonest person".

That's the opposite of true, but you couldn't help yourself, you had to be insulting. Stupid.

[344Johnson]

Fine they can be co-flagships. I like that NDSU is the land grant and UND is the space grant. We can have Lake Region (Devils Lake) as the water grant.;)

Tri-Flagships?

Pinta
Santa Maria
Nina

[Ginsbach]

Research High? It must not take much to get that status.

I posted the numbers for research expenditures. Not sure what all these graduate students are doing, but they sure as heck aren't helping their profs land any grants for...you know...research.

Well, as a graduate student at ISU, I can assure you that we are not only helping our professors to receive grants but we are also performing innovative and important research using the great facilities available in Pocatello. I can't speak for any of the other departments on campus, but we are currently expanding, hiring new professors, installing new research equipment, and bringing in plenty of grants. Idaho State is also in a great location due to the proximity to the Idaho National Laboratories, which means that we can use the resources available from the Department of Energy in Pocatello, at Idaho Falls, and out at the INL itself.

Idaho State (and Boise State for that matter) may have started off as technical schools but that was a long time ago. They've expanded significantly since then.

Make fun of Bengal athletics all you want, but insulting the academics of the school is completely uncalled for. As someone who collaborates with Idaho and Boise State on quite a regular basis, there's a sense of community and a willingness to work with each other between all three schools. Not one of the schools thinks they're above another one another.

[TheBisonator]

Well, as a graduate student at ISU, I can assure you that we are not only helping our professors to receive grants but we are also performing innovative and important research using the great facilities available in Pocatello. I can't speak for any of the other departments on campus, but we are currently expanding, hiring new professors, installing new research equipment, and bringing in plenty of grants. Idaho State is also in a great location due to the proximity to the Idaho National Laboratories, which means that we can use the resources available from the Department of Energy in Pocatello, at Idaho Falls, and out at the INL itself.

Idaho State (and Boise State for that matter) may have started off as technical schools but that was a long time ago. They've expanded significantly since then.

Make fun of Bengal athletics all you want, but insulting the academics of the school is completely uncalled for. As someone who collaborates with Idaho and Boise State on quite a regular basis, there's a sense of community and a willingness to work with each other between all three schools. Not one of the schools thinks they're above another one another.

I don't need to make fun of Bengal athletics, Bengal athletics does a good enough job doing it all by themselves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN9ftTaiapQ

[MplsBison]

Well, as a graduate student at ISU, I can assure you that we are not only helping our professors to receive grants but we are also performing innovative and important research using the great facilities available in Pocatello. I can't speak for any of the other departments on campus, but we are currently expanding, hiring new professors, installing new research equipment, and bringing in plenty of grants. Idaho State is also in a great location due to the proximity to the Idaho National Laboratories, which means that we can use the resources available from the Department of Energy in Pocatello, at Idaho Falls, and out at the INL itself.

Idaho State (and Boise State for that matter) may have started off as technical schools but that was a long time ago. They've expanded significantly since then.

Make fun of Bengal athletics all you want, but insulting the academics of the school is completely uncalled for. As someone who collaborates with Idaho and Boise State on quite a regular basis, there's a sense of community and a willingness to work with each other between all three schools. Not one of the schools thinks they're above another one another.

First off, let me say that I'm sorry for insulting your school or athletic department. Believe it or not, that was not my goal.

I believe you wholeheartedly that there exists a collaborative research community in Idaho between the three universities offering graduate degrees. And I know for fact that both Boise and Pocatello have done a lot of "growing up" the past couple of generations.

Simply, I posted the research expenditures for FY09 (the NSF tracks this data yearly from all sources) to point out that Idaho is by far the prominent research university in the state. I don't think you'd argue against that after seeing that data.


And this has nothing to do with the athletics program directly. But the fact does remain that Idaho is FBS and Idaho St is FCS. And it appears they want to keep it that way.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't need to make fun of Bengal athletics, Bengal athletics does a good enough job doing it all by themselves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN9ftTaiapQ

Wow, I feel bad for Kramer for having to be in that. I feel bad for everybody that was in that.

How can there be so little creativity that their marketing couldn't cut some exciting clips together with some Mike Kramer audio or player audio representing "back with a passion".

Jesus Christ. i think the point of something like that is to stir a different emotion than anger or depression.

[darell1976]

I don't need to make fun of Bengal athletics, Bengal athletics does a good enough job doing it all by themselves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN9ftTaiapQ

Cheerleaders looked good!:D

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Cheerleaders looked good!:D

One of the hottest cheerleaders I've ever seen was from ISU. She was a stunningly sexy girl. They do just fine in the cheerleader department.xthumbsupx

[dgtw]

I don't think I could have made a gayer looking ad if I tried.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't think I could have made a gayer looking ad if I tried.

Ah c'mon, don't sell yourself short dgtw!:D

[Gothmog]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flagship#Education



In other words don't say UND is the flagship of North Dakota because NDSU's feelings would be hurt.

A list of flagship universities:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Flagship_universities_in_the_United_State s

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/02/16/1996968/state-board-of-education-removes.html

Wikipedia isn't much of a source, but did you actually read the definition of "Flagship University" in Wikipedia?

If not, read it again. It excludes UND as the "Flagship" of the NDUS.

[darell1976]

Wikipedia isn't much of a source, but did you actually read the definition of "Flagship University" in Wikipedia?

If not, read it again. It excludes UND as the "Flagship" of the NDUS.

Better?
http://diplomaguide.com/articles/Top_North_Dakota_Colleges_and_Universities.html

The University of North Dakota is a public educational institution and was founded in 1883. Located in Grand Forks, the University of North Dakota has an undergraduate student population of 10,125. The University of North Dakota is the flagship university in the state's public university system. It is also the oldest and largest university in the state. There are ten schools and colleges at the University of North Dakota: Aerospace Sciences, Arts and Sciences, Business and Public Administration, Education and Human Development, Engineering and Mines, Graduate School, Law, Medicine and Health Sciences, Nursing and Continuing Education. The undergraduate tuition for residents is $6,130 and $14,523 for non-residents.

[NDB]

When I want the facts, I go to diplomaguide.com.

[TheBisonator]

Goddammit, what did I just tell you Darell, about what Governor Hoeven told me???

[344Johnson]

Goddammit, what did I just tell you Darell, about what Governor Hoeven told me???

They can go ahead and be the flagship, not all that important. I am a student at North Dakota State and feel fully confident that when I graduate I will be as qualified, if not more, than a UND grad in the eyes of the people I am applying to get a job with. What I feel is extremely important in looking at, is that NDSU has grown by a huge amount of students in the past 10 years(hate Chapman or don't, he did work), and UND hasn't.

Also, we have won something significant since the terrorists flew planes into buildings. UND hasn't. In the words of teh hockies coach, they've been "real close" though....moral victories...

[tourguide]

I can't figure out if it's completely hilarious that almost every thread morphs into some ndsu und debate or whether it is utterly pathetic

[darell1976]

They can go ahead and be the flagship, not all that important. I am a student at North Dakota State and feel fully confident that when I graduate I will be as qualified, if not more, than a UND grad in the eyes of the people I am applying to get a job with. What I feel is extremely important in looking at, is that NDSU has grown by a huge amount of students in the past 10 years(hate Chapman or don't, he did work), and UND hasn't.

Also, we have won something significant since the terrorists flew planes into buildings. UND hasn't. In the words of teh hockies coach, they've been "real close" though....moral victories...

When that happened both UND and NDSU were in DII and what team won the National Title in football that year....it sure wasn't NDSU. So I would say both teams are even 1 National Title in football a piece since 9/11/01.

[Hambone]

I can't figure out if it's completely hilarious that almost every thread morphs into some ndsu und debate or whether it is utterly pathetic

def pathetic

[darell1976]

Goddammit, what did I just tell you Darell, about what Governor Hoeven told me???

And I said they both could be flagship schools but Gothmog I guess didn't get your quote about Hoven.

[bojeta]

I can't figure out if it's completely hilarious that almost every thread morphs into some ndsu und debate or whether it is utterly pathetic

The later.....

[slostang]

The later.....

+1,000

[laxVik]

+1,000+1,001

[Screamin_Eagle174]

I don't need to make fun of Bengal athletics, Bengal athletics does a good enough job doing it all by themselves.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bN9ftTaiapQ

I seriously LOLed for a good 15-20 seconds upon watching that. JFC.

[TheBisonator]

I seriously LOLed for a good 15-20 seconds upon watching that. JFC.

It's a really really really bad commercial. First time I saw it, I thought it was a parody gag, or something.

[Uncle Rico's Clan]

I seriously LOLed for a good 15-20 seconds upon watching that. JFC.

Do you think anyone at ISU is worried that three members of its student body had trouble getting the school's initials in the correct order?

[aceinthehole]

I don't know what Idaho is going to do, but their options are limted.


University of Idaho Director of Athletics Rob Spear said the Vandal athletic program made its case to be admitted to the Mountain West Conference but ultimately was rejected, leaving it as only one of two remaining football schools in the Western Athletic Conference, which has been pilfered by the MWC and Conference USA in recent days.

"We are disappointed we were not considered for membership in the Mountain West Conference. We put together a strong case for the University of Idaho," Spear said in a prepared statement to open a teleconference with the media on Friday. "... Despite this disappointment, we are not going to be bitter. We are going to face this adversity head on and pick ourselves up and dust ourselves off and move forward. The University of Idaho has always been resilient and we won't stop now."

Unfortunately for Idaho, options appear to be limited. Spear said the university is evaluating four possible scenarios for the athletic department, three of which would keep the Idaho football program at the Football Bowl Series level, either by pursuing a full membership in an FBS conference, playing football in a separate FBS conference while working with existing WAC membership on rebuilding the league as a non-football conference, or going independent in football. Spear said the university will also review the feasibility of dropping down a level and competing at the Football Championship Series level where it would presumably return to the Big Sky.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-mct-mwc-rebuffs-idahos-interest-20120505,0,7748345.story

[aceinthehole]

Same for NMSU.


While some felt the Sun Belt Conference could be a landing spot for NMSU — and perhaps it still could be — those hopes were dampened Wednesday during a conference call with league Commissioner Karl Benson. Benson, who left as WAC commissioner just over two months ago, indicated he would look inside the Sun Belt's immediate region — from Florida to East Texas — before considering schools outside that geographic footprint.
...

Could the Aggies actually break away from conference affiliation to become an independent football team?

As a long-term answer, it would seem difficult, simply from a recruiting and scheduling standpoint.

"There aren't that many independents," said former NMSU head football coach Hal Mumme. "If you look at the ones that are (Notre Dame, BYU, Army and Navy), they have a national following. I don't know how a regional university would do (with) that. It would seem to be a hard row to hoe."

After competing in the Border Conference for close to 30 years — a league consisting of regional teams such as University of Arizona, Northern Arizona, Arizona State, New Mexico and UTEP — the Aggies were an independent program from 1962-70, compiling a 49-39-2 record.

"We didn't have to travel far," said Don Kloppenburg, an assistant football coach at NMSU for a period of that time. "Most of our games were against teams people could identify with because they were from the old Border Conference.

"I'm not sure (if it would work now). But it's definitely an option."
...
Could New Mexico State or the WAC drop to the FCS level (formally Division I-AA)?

Might the Aggies drop football altogether?

"It's way too early to have that conversation," Boston said.

"I'm not going to look at the glass of water as half empty," he added. "I have to look at and explore our goal to be a mid-major, quality program with Division I-A football."
...
While opinions differ on what best suits the Aggies, the athletic program's current state is tough to take for its loyal supporters.

"I'd be so physically and mentally upset," said Don Yannessa, who played football for NMSU in the early 1960s. "I don't know if I'd get over it in my lifetime."

The Aggie administration — namely Boston, President Barbara Couture and the board of regents — have come under fire, with questions concerning their planning and institutional leadership.

Boise State announced its eventual WAC departure in the summer of 2010, followed shortly thereafter by Fresno State and Nevada.

At that point, Boston pledged his allegiance to the WAC and, while other teams made similar statements publicly, they left out the back door.

When asked to address those questions, Boston said, "New Mexico State is in a very challenging period of time. No. 1, we're in a market that's UTEP's market. In an isolated part of the state. A small market with less than 100,000 people. To speculate (that) institutional leadership across the board hasn't responded based on how to address it is na ve and even mean-spirited."

But is the Las Cruces market any different than a Ruston, La., or a Logan, Utah?

"To a degree, you make your own market," Kloppenburg said. "I know you're limited by numbers. If you were an independent, and won seven, eight games, the market will take care of itself."

Supporters are frustrated, wanting to know why the Aggies are in this position, and what's being done to get them out.

So far, the answers haven't been transparent.

"Ineptitude," Yannessa said. "A lack of a vision, a lack of (an ability) to put together funds to even pretend you're Division I.

"If they lose that athletics program and don't get into a league — a good league — I wouldn't lend them a dime."

Fans have similar questions, and concerns.

"It seems on the surface — and I don't know the background or details — but it seems the plan is, let's see what everyone else does first," said loyal supporter Peter Cruz.

Or, in the words of another Aggie fan, Rick Barbee, "I don't know where they're going. But it doesn't look good."

http://www.lcsun-news.com/las_cruces-sports/ci_20558808/wac-exodus-puts-aggies-football-future-question

[MplsBison]

I don't know what Idaho is going to do, but their options are limted.


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-mct-mwc-rebuffs-idahos-interest-20120505,0,7748345.story

Spear made it very obvious what they're going to do in the near term future: stay in FBS.

They'll give indy a go before going back to FCS. They'll have many teams in the west region looking for scheduling opportunities. Of course, the trouble is going to be convincing 4 FBS teams to make a trip to Moscow. It will be interesting for sure. Although realistically, they can play Washington St over there and still count it as a home game and get Eastern Washington to come to Moscow for next to nothing, as it is very little cost for them to travel there.

It would be interesting to see if the Big Sky mandates its members into not scheduling Idaho, trying to put as much pressure on them to return as possible.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

Do you think anyone at ISU is worried that three members of its student body had trouble getting the school's initials in the correct order?

One of many things I'm sure they're worried about. xlolx

[darell1976]

Spear made it very obvious what they're going to do in the near term future: stay in FBS.

They'll give indy a go before going back to FCS. They'll have many teams in the west region looking for scheduling opportunities. Of course, the trouble is going to be convincing 4 FBS teams to make a trip to Moscow. It will be interesting for sure. Although realistically, they can play Washington St over there and still count it as a home game and get Eastern Washington to come to Moscow for next to nothing, as it is very little cost for them to travel there.

It would be interesting to see if the Big Sky mandates its members into not scheduling Idaho, trying to put as much pressure on them to return as possible.

With the toughness on scheduling as it is, this would be a stupid move by the BSC. Teams need DI games and in a region where its mostly non DI teams or FBS teams the BSC member's would be shooting themselves by blackballing Idaho just to get them to return to the conference. UND has played Idaho twice(2010, 2011) and for most BSC teams Idaho is a winnable game.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

With the toughness on scheduling as it is, this would be a stupid move by the BSC. Teams need DI games and in a region where its mostly non DI teams or FBS teams the BSC member's would be shooting themselves by blackballing Idaho just to get them to return to the conference. UND has played Idaho twice(2010, 2011) and for most BSC teams Idaho is a winnable game.

I think it's a silly notion that the BSC would ever do something like that or even could pull off something like that.

How many member institutions do you think would go along with something like that? I'd place way more money on zero than I would on all in that race.

[darell1976]

I think it's a silly notion that the BSC would ever do something like that or even could pull off something like that.

How many member institutions do you think would go along with something like that? I'd place way more money on zero than I would on all in that race.

Just ask UNI how hard it was to schedule a DI team and then in the end agreeing to a DII team. Not only was their playoff chances slim with the FBS games, but now you add a non counter game to really crush your playoff hopes. I can see a big fat ZERO on banning Idaho from scheduling.

[aceinthehole]

Big Sky is actively pursuing Idaho.

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/07/bmurphy/big_sky_commissioner_idahos_situation_top_fcs_heal thier_bottom_f

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/08/2107476/big-sky-boss-fcs-league-is-idahos.html

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Big Sky is actively pursuing Idaho.

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/07/bmurphy/big_sky_commissioner_idahos_situation_top_fcs_heal thier_bottom_f

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/08/2107476/big-sky-boss-fcs-league-is-idahos.html

And...

http://www.kivitv.com/news/local/150598725.html

[darell1976]

I can see Idaho coming back to the BSC if their only choices were Indy or the FCS, and I cannot see them past 1 year in Indy land.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I can see FCS for the Vandals, and I can see them trying desperately to join an FBS conference, but IMO D-I independent is just crazy talk. I can't see how it's considered a serious option.

The undercurrent here, though, is if the WAC survives as a basketball-only league. Folks are forgetting that "the WAC in all sports but football" could still be a very, very compelling option. Though folks have carved their tombstone, if they survive as a basketball conference, that solves an awful lot of problems out west for both Idaho... and Boise State.

[darell1976]

Has there been any reason why the MWC won't accept Idaho?

[344Johnson]

Has there been any reason why the MWC won't accept Idaho?

The MWC is a definite step up above the WAC. Idaho is one of the worst teams in the WAC. Thats all I can come up with.

[darell1976]

The MWC is a definite step up above the WAC. Idaho is one of the worst teams in the WAC. Thats all I can come up with.

Every conference needs a doormat.;)

[344Johnson]

Every conference needs a doormat.;)

Oh! So thats why UND is going to the Big Sky. Makes sense now. ;)

[darell1976]

Oh! So thats why UND is going to the Big Sky. Makes sense now. ;)

:p

[aceinthehole]

I can see FCS for the Vandals, and I can see them trying desperately to join an FBS conference, but IMO D-I independent is just crazy talk. I can't see how it's considered a serious option.

The undercurrent here, though, is if the WAC survives as a basketball-only league. Folks are forgetting that "the WAC in all sports but football" could still be a very, very compelling option. Though folks have carved their tombstone, if they survive as a basketball conference, that solves an awful lot of problems out west for both Idaho... and Boise State.

Why? While I agree there is a still a (small) chance the WAC could survive as a non-football conference - the status of their AQ for hoops and other sports remains very unceratin. I'm not sure if there is any sceniaro where the WAC will meet the NCAA qualifications (minimum number of teams playing together, etc) to keep their AQs in other sports.

In any case, why is a watered-down WAC with NMSU, Boise State, Seattle, Denver, Cal-Bakersfield, etc. a better option for Idaho than the Big Sky for basketball and other olympic sports?

I do agree that WAC staying alive would help Boise State's non-football sports because the Big Sky many not be willing to host them for just hoops, etc. If the WAC dies as a conference, Boise State's olympic sports membership options are likely limited to the Big Sky or the Summit League.

[MplsBison]

I can see Idaho coming back to the BSC if their only choices were Indy or the FCS, and I cannot see them past 1 year in Indy land.

Might turn out to be true, but they'll give Indy a shot first.

They will not turn to option 4 out of 4.

[MplsBison]

Big Sky is actively pursuing Idaho.

http://voices.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/07/bmurphy/big_sky_commissioner_idahos_situation_top_fcs_heal thier_bottom_f

http://www.idahostatesman.com/2012/05/08/2107476/big-sky-boss-fcs-league-is-idahos.html

Thanks for posting the links.

My response to Fullerton:


"Playing at the top of the FCS is a better situation than playing at the bottom of the FBS," Fullerton said, adding that it is nearly impossible for schools with budgets near $20 million to compete with schools like Texas and its $140 million athletic department budget.

Any school moving up to FBS now from FCS knows full well it's not competing for national championships with Texas. Non-argument.

The reason for moving away from FCS is that the FCS national championship means nothing in the grand scheme of college football. It's no better than winning the DII or DIII championship.

So the goal then for schools moving up is to win a conference title and win a bowl game. Those may seem equally as insignificant, but they do mean more than the FCS championship. That's what it comes down to.


"The success and fan base and excitement you can do (by) staying regional is what college athletics are supposed to be about, unless you can play at the national level," Fullerton said.

Gobbledygook. There is no such requirement that you have to nationally competitive in order to want to provide 85 scholarship to football student athletes.


He said Idaho could shave $3 million to $5 million from its athletic budget by moving to the Big Sky, lessening the need to play those types of payday games. Those savings would come from fewer scholarships in football and women's sports and from lower coaching salaries. Idaho, he said, could then reinvest that money into other programs.

Outright dishonesty. I doubt the Idaho coaches make that much in the first place and they're not going to accept pay cuts from moving to FCS from the bottom of FBS. Going from 85 to 63 in football is not 3-5 million.


Fullerton said the league is well-positioned to be in the second-tier of college football if there is a break in the FBS with the top five conferences creating their own level of play. Spear made several references to this scenario during his call with media last week.

More dishonesty. The only way to assure yourself a seat at the "second-tier table", when that eventually forms, is to be FBS. FCS is no guarantee to be included.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why? While I agree there is a still a (small) chance the WAC could survive as a non-football conference - the status of their AQ for hoops and other sports remains very unceratin. I'm not sure if there is any sceniaro where the WAC will meet the NCAA qualifications (minimum number of teams playing together, etc) to keep their AQs in other sports.

In any case, why is a watered-down WAC with NMSU, Boise State, Seattle, Denver, Cal-Bakersfield, etc. a better option for Idaho than the Big Sky for basketball and other olympic sports?

I do agree that WAC staying alive would help Boise State's non-football sports because the Big Sky many not be willing to host them for just hoops, etc. If the WAC dies as a conference, Boise State's olympic sports membership options are likely limited to the Big Sky or the Summit League.

I believe they could get an exemption for qualifying for an AQ in basketball, for if memory serves me right they were looking to get an exemption to remain an FBS conference once Texas State, UTSA, etc. became members and they lost Boise. But agreed, it's hardly a done deal, and there is uncertainty there.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think a watered-down WAC is better than the Big Sky in all sports. It depends on how bad they want to remain in FBS. I'm just saying the WAC in all sports/Mountain West Associate member, or something, might be a compelling deal if that's what they want.

[aceinthehole]

Here's Andy Katz take on the Idaho/Boise State situation:


The Big West meets next week and whether to expand again is an agenda item.

Don't expect tremendous movement.

And that could spell doom and gloom for Boise State basketball.

Boise State made a football decision earlier this year to join the Big East in 2013 and place all of its other sports in the WAC.

The Big West wasn't an option. The Big West gladly accepted San Diego State's application for the rest of its sports, highlighted by men's basketball, after the Aztecs joined the Broncos' football program in the Big East.

At the time it all made sense. The WAC had regional teams Idaho, Denver and Seattle as well as Utah State, San Jose State and New Mexico State
....
The best-case scenario is if the Big East option were to fall apart for Boise State and it decided to go back to the Mountain West. Boise State and San Diego State joined the Big East for the potential increase in television revenue, more so than an automatic qualification in the BCS that will end in two seasons (Boise State and SDSU would have one shot at this in 2013). The MWC would gladly take the Broncos back and one of the reasons, according to sources, that the MWC held at 10 football with the addition of San Jose State and Utah State is in case Boise and/or SDSU change their minds.

But short of that happening Boise State is in a perilous situation. The WAC could technically survive with the addition of Bakersfield and Utah Valley to a group of NMSU, Idaho, Denver and Seattle. Is that really what Boise wants?

Boise best make a strong plea to the Big West to convince the league's athletic directors and presidents that the Broncos are worth the cost and the addition of another time zone (mountain).

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/7904993/conference-changes-leave-boise-state-searching-home-college-basketball

[aceinthehole]

Has there been any reason why the MWC won't accept Idaho?

The MWC is holding the last 2 spots for Bosie and SDSU, hoping they will realize the Big East football-only deal is a huge mistake without the BCS AQ, to rejoin the MWC as full members.

Boise State athletic director Mark Coyle attended this week’s MWC meetings, but conference commissioner Craig Thompson declined to say whether the Broncos have expressed interest in returning.
Thompson said the Broncos would be welcome as a full member — if all sports returned. The MWC is looking to add two more football schools so it can play an annual conference championship game.
“There is room at the table,” Thompson said. “There’s no question. Ten football members is two short of a conference championship game, but I don’t want to get into a hypothetical answer. We’ll just see where the future takes us.”
http://www.rgj.com/article/20120506/SPORTS06/305060082/1018

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But short of that happening Boise State is in a perilous situation. The WAC could technically survive with the addition of Bakersfield and Utah Valley to a group of NMSU, Idaho, Denver and Seattle. Is that really what Boise wants?

See, this might be the case. Boise State has a choice to pursue football excellence in a rapidly-declining Big East with a mammoth travel schedule but remain reasonably local for non-football, or to go all-in with the Mountain West which is basically becoming WAC 2.0. I don't think WAC 2.0 is all that compelling an option without BYU and Utah.

[aceinthehole]

See, this might be the case. Boise State has a choice to pursue football excellence in a rapidly-declining Big East with a mammoth travel schedule but remain reasonably local for non-football, or to go all-in with the Mountain West which is basically becoming WAC 2.0. I don't think WAC 2.0 is all that compelling an option without BYU and Utah.

Again, I agree, a reconstituted WAC benefits Boise State the most. But I would suggest that 3 or 4 years out, the MWC may not be much worse in terms of revenue or exposure than C-USA 2.0 (Big East). IMO, Bosie (and SDSU) is taking a very big risk in in its planned conference affiliations.

[MplsBison]

Again, I agree, a reconstituted WAC benefits Boise State the most. But I would suggest that 3 or 4 years out, the MWC may not be much worse in terms of revenue or exposure than C-USA 2.0 (Big East). IMO, Bosie (and SDSU) is taking a very big risk in in its planned conference affiliations.

Absolutely not, is the answer that Big East basketball schools will give and SHOULD give to the question of if they're willing to share the revenue from the Big East TV that now largely rests on the backs of basketball, now that the historical football teams have left (except for Rutgers).

With the auto-bid gone, Boise and San Diego aren't going to sniff those dollars as ridiculously far flung, football ONLY members of a basketball dominated Big East.


Get your butts back to the Mountain West. Make that into the best conference it can be. Try to beat the Pac 12 on every occasion on the field. Work hard for your own TV deal.

I decree.

[darell1976]

The MWC is holding the last 2 spots for Bosie and SDSU, hoping they will realize the Big East football-only deal is a huge mistake without the BCS AQ, to rejoin the MWC as full members.

http://www.rgj.com/article/20120506/SPORTS06/305060082/1018


“There is room at the table,” Thompson said. “There’s no question. Ten football members is two short of a conference championship game, but I don’t want to get into a hypothetical answer. We’ll just see where the future takes us.”

So they are going to kill Idaho in order to save a spot for two teams that may never join. Wow. I see how highly they think of Idaho.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So they are going to kill Idaho in order to save a spot for two teams that may never join. Wow. I see how highly they think of Idaho.

Conferences shouldn't be doing things out of some sort of welfare mentality anyway. Idaho can't compete well on what they have available and the MWC may be committing a mercy killing to put them out of everyone's misery at this point.

[SDFS]

The MWC is a definite step up above the WAC. Idaho is one of the worst teams in the WAC. Thats all I can come up with.

I looked at the MWC today and it is just the old WAC - plus the Mnt - TV network ends this month. So, they are starting from the ground up. I don't see much difference.

Old MWC: gone
BYU
Utah
SDSU
TCU

Old WAC/New MW: Gone
Boise St.

Remaining MW:
Air Force
Colorado St.
New Mexico
Hawaii
UNLV
Wyoming

Joining WAC
Fresno St.
Neveda
San Jose St.
Utah St.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I look at the MWC today and it is just the old WAC - plus the Mnt - TV network ends this month. So, they are starting from the ground up. I don't see much difference.

Old MWC: gone
BYU
Utah
SDSU
TCU

Old WAC/New MW: Gone
Boise St.

Remaining MW:
Air Force
Colorado St.
New Mexico
Hawaii
UNLV
Wyoming

Joining WAC
Fresno St.
Neveda
San Jose St.
Utah St.

Exactly, WAC 2.0

I touch upon this in my latest piece on CSJ:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/79-college-sports-journal/chuck-burton/214-the-college-football-realignment-maelstrom

[darell1976]

Conferences shouldn't be doing things out of some sort of welfare mentality anyway. Idaho can't compete well on what they have available and the MWC may be committing a mercy killing to put them out of everyone's misery at this point.

So if Idaho would have won more games they wouldn't be in this mess...I guess even at the WAC level it pays to win.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So if Idaho would have won more games they wouldn't be in this mess...I guess even at the WAC level it pays to win.

Even then it may have been tenuous. But if they had grown their TV base and been more of a commodity in that regard then it would seem more likely that their value to a conference would increase.

You can get reserved season tickets for $150 for the season for the season...just about $100 bucks less than Montana. That ought to tell you something about the demand for the FBS product at the level they are competing at and the economics of what the supply/demand thing has done for them.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Oh, you could have gotten gen. admission tickets for under $100 according to last years prices apparently.

[MplsBison]

I look at the MWC today and it is just the old WAC - plus the Mnt - TV network ends this month. So, they are starting from the ground up. I don't see much difference.

Old MWC: gone
BYU
Utah
SDSU
TCU

Old WAC/New MW: Gone
Boise St.

Remaining MW:
Air Force
Colorado St.
New Mexico
Hawaii
UNLV
Wyoming

Joining WAC
Fresno St.
Neveda
San Jose St.
Utah St.

It's amazing if you look at the schools who were members of the WAC in 1996 and before that.

Of that group of 18 schools:

- Arizona, Arizona St and Utah have made it to the promised land, the Pac
- BYU was rejected by the Pac and refused to stay behind in the MW while Utah surged ahead, they went indy in football
- San Diego St is tentatively going to the Big East for football (but I bet the deal falls through and they stay in the MW)
- the other 5 schools that originally formed the MW (CSU, Wyo, AF, UNLV, NM) have not left that conference
- the 4 Texas schools and Tulsa all left for CUSA at one time or another, with TCU now in the Big XII and SMU going to the Big East
- the remaining 3 schools, Fresno, San Jose and Hawaii are all now headed to the MW for football

The next three additions after that were Nevada, Boise and Louisiana Tech. LT going to the CUSA now while Nevada going to the MW. Boise is tentatively going to the Big East, but likewise with San Diego I bet the deal falls through and they stay.

Then the next three were Idaho, New Mexico St and Utah St. Only Utah St got lucky, due to Utah and BYU leaving, and now hold the last MW invite.


If somehow, someway San Diego and Boise stand firm on joining the Big East (only happens if they can somehow, someway force the BE basketball schools to fork over money from the TV contract that was built on bball) - then maybe, just maybe, the MW will throw a friggin bone to NM St and Idaho in order to get to 12 and a conf championship game.

I'm sure NM St and Idaho are praying nightly for that very thing.

[TheBisonator]

Even then it may have been tenuous. But if they had grown their TV base and been more of a commodity in that regard then it would seem more likely that their value to a conference would increase.

You can get reserved season tickets for $150 for the season for the season...just about $100 bucks less than Montana. That ought to tell you something about the demand for the FBS product at the level they are competing at and the economics of what the supply/demand thing has done for them.


It's not 150, Idaho's season ticket prices this year start at 50 bucks for the cheapest General Admission seats. NDSU's start at 108 bucks.

(I edited my post, which was originally questioning why Idaho has much more expensive tix than NDSU, then I checked both team's websites)

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow, Idaho's season ticket prices are more expensive than NDSU's. Our cheapest season seats went for 90 bucks last year (endzone). Maybe if UI lowered their ticket prices, they'd see their attendance go up. Right now NDSU, averaging 6,000 or so per game more than Idaho, doesn't see the need for charging that much for tix. (Season tickets for NDSU for 2012 are 108 bucks for the cheapest EZ seats)

You gotta be ****ting me. I just dropped $250 for mine the other day and they are in the endzone. I did have a $10 late charge for missing the May 1 deadline though.:o

[TheBisonator]

You gotta be ****ting me. I just dropped $250 for mine the other day and they are in the endzone. I did have a $10 late charge for missing the May 1 deadline though.:o

Sorry ursus, I edited my post just now after checking the NDSU and Idaho web sites. Idaho's start at 50 bucks GA and NDSU 108 bucks GA.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Sorry ursus, I edited my post just now after checking the NDSU and Idaho web sites. Idaho's start at 50 bucks GA and NDSU 108 bucks GA.

Ah, it's cool. That is even more of an "You've gotta be....me!"

Good god. That tells ya right there where they ought to be cuz they sure can't sustain on that weak of a revenue stream...trickle...whatever.

[darell1976]

50 bucks??? That's gotta be the lowest in the FBS...I wonder if Eastern Michigan's is that low.

[MplsBison]

Ah, it's cool. That is even more of an "You've gotta be....me!"

Good god. That tells ya right there where they ought to be cuz they sure can't sustain on that weak of a revenue stream...trickle...whatever.

Obviously they can. They've been FBS for several years now.

Donations is one way and another way is asking if students are willing to vote larger fees for themselves so that their football team can remain at the highest level of financial commitment.

[MplsBison]

50 bucks??? That's gotta be the lowest in the FBS...I wonder if Eastern Michigan's is that low.

Gotta factor in cost of living.

[darell1976]

For the regular Joe (not facuilty or E-Club member) the cheapest at Eastern Michigan is 48 bucks for reserve bench, for reserve chairback its 60...their OOC home games are Illinois State and Army. Maybe 50 for GA at Idaho isn't bad.

[MplsBison]

For the regular Joe (not facuilty or E-Club member) the cheapest at Eastern Michigan is 48 bucks for reserve bench, for reserve chairback its 60...their OOC home games are Illinois State and Army. Maybe 50 for GA at Idaho isn't bad.

All about demand and supply.

Montana could play Carroll, Montana Tech, Sac St, Portland St, Weber St and NAU for home teams and season ticket prices wouldn't budge an inch.

[darell1976]

All about demand and supply.

Montana could play Carroll, Montana Tech, Sac St, Portland St, Weber St and NAU for home teams and season ticket prices wouldn't budge an inch.

I can see why EMU averaged around 4000....I can see that in Idaho's future if they don't get a FBS or FCS conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-season-tickets-on-sale.html


For $100, fans receive a chairback reserved seat to all six home games, while for $85 fans can purchase general admission season tickets. The only way to ensure tickets to the annual Lehigh – Lafayette contest is to buy season tickets or a mini plan.

For the third straight year, Lehigh Athletics is offering four mini plans, each of which includes a ticket to the Lehigh – Lafayette game. Any of the four plans can be purchased for $57 (chairback) or $49 (general admission. Plan A features the New Hampshire, Yale and Lafayette games, while Plan B consists of the Liberty, Holy Cross and Lafayette games. Plan C includes Yale and Holy Cross, as well as Lafayette, while Plan D features New Hampshire, Holy Cross and Lafayette.

So, for the record, Lehigh's season ticket prices last year were the higher than Idaho and Eastern Michigan's. And, like the Vandals and Eagles, the Mountain Hawks had six home games. For the same price as GA, you could get a mini-plan which guaranteed you a chance to get tickets for the sold-out Lehigh/Lafayette game.

Sellouts are something that is foreign to EMU and Idaho. xlolx

[TheRevSFA]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/06/2011-season-tickets-on-sale.html



So, for the record, Lehigh's season ticket prices last year were the higher than Idaho and Eastern Michigan's. And, like the Vandals and Eagles, the Mountain Hawks had six home games. For the same price as GA, you could get a mini-plan which guaranteed you a chance to get tickets for the sold-out Lehigh/Lafayette game.

Sellouts are something that is foreign to EMU and Idaho. xlolx

SFA's season ticket price is 100 for chairbacks and 68 for general admission. Higher than Idaho..insane.

[MplsBison]

I can see why EMU averaged around 4000....I can see that in Idaho's future if they don't get a FBS or FCS conference.

Eastern has been in the MAC since 1971 and are in no imminent danger of being kicked out of the MAC or FBS.

[MplsBison]

SFA's season ticket price is 100 for chairbacks and 68 for general admission. Higher than Idaho..insane.

Why is that insane?

FBS ticket prices are required to be higher than FCS ticket prices....because...???

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why is that insane?

FBS ticket prices are required to be higher than FCS ticket prices....because...???

Because they're "state flagships"... because they're FBS, and therefore can charge more for their "superior product"... because they're so much better academically than FCS schools... take your pick xlolx

[asumike83]

Why is that insane?

FBS ticket prices are required to be higher than FCS ticket prices....because...???

Not required to but there are obviously more expenses associated with playing at the FBS level. You'd think ticket revenue would be a major source of funds to pay for that.

[MplsBison]

Not required to but there are obviously more expenses associated with playing at the FBS level. You'd think ticket revenue would be a major source of funds to pay for that.

Just more scholarships and more coaches pay, ideally. Yes it's great to have ticket revenue, but that doesn't work out all the time.

[JSUBison]

One would think MPLS would be in favor of forcing Idaho back down to a level it can compete at, and fund properly. Afterall, isn't that the same arguement he makes more or less for Pioneer League schools?

[TheRevSFA]

Why is that insane?

FBS ticket prices are required to be higher than FCS ticket prices....because...???

Because it's the big time..because FBS is solely money driven. This is your logic. If your FBS, you should be raking in cash.

It's sad when such a "lowly" FCS school as Stephen F Austin makes more money off of ticket sales than a state's flagship university.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Because it's the big time..because FBS is solely money driven. This is your logic. If your FBS, you should be raking in cash.

It's sad when such a "lowly" FCS school as Stephen F Austin makes more money off of ticket sales than a state's flagship university.

And an effete glorified private school like Lehigh does too, a school who can't possibly compete with other FCS programs, let alone FBS schools. xlolx

[darell1976]

SFA's season ticket price is 100 for chairbacks and 68 for general admission. Higher than Idaho..insane.

The cheapest prices for season tickets at UND is $60 bucks (from the endzone to the 15 yd line)...up to 90 bucks for the (30-45 yd line) all reserved. 5 DI teams and 1 DII team on the schedule and I bet we average more than Idaho and Eastern Michigan with ease.

[laxVik]

The cheapest prices for season tickets at UND is $60 bucks (from the endzone to the 15 yd line)...up to 90 bucks for the (30-45 yd line) all reserved. 5 DI teams and 1 DII team on the schedule and I bet we average more than Idaho and Eastern Michigan with ease.What else is there to do in Fargo besides wish you were somewhere else?

[SDFS]

What else is there to do in Fargo besides wish you were somewhere else?

I like the tune you are singing - sing it!!

[darell1976]

What else is there to do in Fargo besides wish you were somewhere else?

I have been here for 13 years and still ask myself the same thing.xlolx I know I wish I was in Grand Forks for football and hockey season, then the lakes for the summer.

[laxVik]

I have been here for 13 years and still ask myself the same thing.xlolx I know I wish I was in Grand Forks for football and hockey season, then the lakes for the summer.Hell I'm in Albuquerque. A close 2nd to Fargo in the what the F do we do this weekend club.

[gotts]

Hell I'm in Albuquerque. A close 2nd to Fargo in the what the F do we do this weekend club.

get ****ty, of course

[darell1976]

Hell I'm in Albuquerque. A close 2nd to Fargo in the what the F do we do this weekend club.

Go to Mexico.

[laxVik]

Go to Mexico.Have ya been to NM? Same thing. Slightly better water.

[darell1976]

Have ya been to NM? Same thing. Slightly better water.

Nope never been...I would like to, the fam wants to drive down Route 66 from Texas to California.