More League Shifting - A10, AE, CAA and NEC

[TexasTerror]

We have shuffle talks as it relates to the SoCon, ETSU and the Big South. Now, here's some talks focusing around UNH, Stony Brook, ODU and a few others that could impact each other. As the author of the below story states, "Yes, the conference shuffle of 2003 that revamped the Big East seems almost ready for an encore, and this time Division I-AA football - or whatever it ends up being called after its eventual name change - will be on the front lines."

Key decisions loom at UNH
By Mike Zhe
[email protected]


The America East conference will hold its annual meetings in Saratoga, N.Y., in two weekends, and don’t be surprised if the discussion of football finds its way onto the agenda.

As it stands now, all systems are go for the University of New Hampshire football program as it prepares to move into the Colonial Athletic Association in 2007. The Wildcats - America East members in most other sports - and 11 other football teams will play their final season in the Atlantic 10 this fall.

But things have been tweaked a bit in the 13 months since that deal was struck. Enough to make you wonder who and where the Wildcats will be playing a few years from now.

http://www.seacoastonline.com/news/06152006/sports/107842.htm

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

But - and he emphasized but with "a capital B" - he’s not about to make any decisions that would minimize what’s turned into a jewel of a program. At this point, throwing in his lot with Maine, UMass, Rhode Island, Stony Brook and Albany simply for proximity would do that.

The bottom line is this: At a school that recently cut four varsity sports to take steps toward addressing an ugly budget deficit, football simply cannot get screwed up.

Sound similar to what someone else has been saying? :rolleyes:


The school’s football team is hot, cracking the preseason rankings at No. 1 (Lindy’s) and No. 2 (AnyGivenSaturday.com), returning two of the nation’s best offensive players in wide receiver David Ball and quarterback Ricky Santos, and coming off a big season at the gate (7,284 fans average) that saw it outdraw the men’s hockey team for the first time in recent memory.

While that average will be laughed at in Missoula, Newark, Statesboro, Youngstown, etc., you have to remember that it is 112% of capacity in Durham. And outdrawing the hockey team is HUGE!!! That has to be the first time it has occurred since the Whittemore Center opened in 1995. BTW, capacity in our hockey arena is one seat more than the football stadium which many think is not a coincidence. xlolx

[JMU2004]

Drawing 7800 after your 2 best years is not much to crow about......it may be a big deal for UNH, but JMU averaged more than that when we were 2-9.

I have mucho respect for UNH, but fans and facilities are pretty lacking(according to the UNI fellas)

[Ronbo]

and coming off a big season at the gate (7,284 fans average) that saw it outdraw the men’s hockey team for the first time in recent memory.

Kudos for "averaging" more than hockey but football hardly "outdrew men's hockey". Football has 6 home games (43,704) and hockey has what 19 home games? (130-135,000). :smiley_wi

[colgate13]

FWIW, those of you living outside of the Northeast just don't understand. It is very hard (in most instances) to draw significant crowds to sports that are not seen as 'big time'. Drawing 112% capacity of your stadium is something to be excited about. :twocents:

[Ronbo]

Happens on the West Coast too. Portland and Sacramento, both areas in the 1 million population range and they average 6-7,000 fans. Fresno is about 300,000 population and averages 43,000. I-AA is small time sports.

[OL FU]

No problem with the 7000 plus. I think Furman draws well for a school of 2500 but I am more than willing to admit part of that is due to proximity of opponents and the weather in Gville during the fall is not too shabby.

Realizing there have been lots of threads on this, I don't see how the CAA (football) can survive with a growing number of football programs and I hope the new SoCon Commissioner is watching since he seems to think we need more than nine football teams.

[UD1993]

UNH should be proud of that average. NH is not a football state and UNH is not a football school. To sell out every game is something to be proud of no matter how big/small your stadium is or how good/bad your team is.

[henfan]

For the sake of argument, let's say the CAA offers all-sports membership to a couple more AEC FB schools? Wonder what happens then?

The CAA summer meetings should be interesting.:smiley_wi

[89Hen]

For the sake of argument, let's say the CAA offers all-sports membership to a couple more AEC FB schools? Wonder what happens then?

The CAA summer meetings should be interesting.:smiley_wi
No kidding. Although I've very excited about ODU joining the frey, I am certainly not looking forward to a 13 team conference. The big problem I see is that they can't really split with the current playoff structure. They would be risking not having an auto for half the teams. Of course the reality is that if the CAA full members split from the associates, both could eventually end up with an auto and the MEAC or OVC could be SOL.

[colgate13]

No kidding. Although I've very excited about ODU joining the frey, I am certainly not looking forward to a 13 team conference. The big problem I see is that they can't really split with the current playoff structure. They would be risking not having an auto for half the teams. Of course the reality is that if the CAA full members split from the associates, both could eventually end up with an auto and the MEAC or OVC could be SOL.

IMHO we'd more likely end up with a 20/24 team playoff.

[89Hen]

IMHO we'd more likely end up with a 20/24 team playoff.
I think that only happens if at least two or three of: the CAA splits, the Big South and/or GWFC find enough teams for an auto, and the Ivy decides they want to play our reindeer games. With only one of those happening, I don't think the NCAA revamps the entire playoff structure to accomodate one conference. Remember, its not easy just adding a week to the post-season with the bowls going on.:twocents:

[Dane96]

No kidding. Although I've very excited about ODU joining the frey, I am certainly not looking forward to a 13 team conference. The big problem I see is that they can't really split with the current playoff structure. They would be risking not having an auto for half the teams. Of course the reality is that if the CAA full members split from the associates, both could eventually end up with an auto and the MEAC or OVC could be SOL.


Agreed. With the influx of teams, however, in recent years, you will see more of a push to increase the playoffs to at least 20 teams.

I know this is going to not go over well with some, however I believe the following may occur, not today, but in a few years:

PL-

Will get to scholarship football and attract 'Nova and Richmond (Nova keeping its rivalry with UD).

CAA/AE will do some de facto behind the scenes work to get the following:

A combination of the all-hoop schools to form a great academic/athletic hoop centric league.

A football all-sport conference that will be either 12-14 (if the playoffs expand, 14 teams will be ok...multiple bids would go to this conference):

North:

Albany
Stony Brook
UNH
MAINE
UMASS
Northeastern

South:

Hofstra
Delaware
Towson
JMU
ODU
W&M

I believe URI will drop football, however if they dont, I can see going to a 14 team league.

Basically, all of this would turn out to be a 15 year re-formation of old-rivalries but in like-minded conferences.

The hoop schools would be happy and the football schools wont have their football budgets strapped by travel. The league would be in top media markets and would be filled with like-minded and sized institutions.

Just my :twocents:

[89Hen]

With the influx of teams, however, in recent years, you will see more of a push to increase the playoffs to at least 20 teams.
20 will not work IMO. IF it expands it will go to 24.

[henfan]

20 will not work IMO. IF it expands it will go to 24.

Due to the finances involved, expanding the regular season to 12 games seems to have far greater support across I-AA than does extending the post-season. It's highly unlikely that D-I powers (namely the BCS schools) will allow both to happen, as it would impact their post-season. The possibility of byes for first round playoff games make a I-AA expansion option that much less appealing.

[89Hen]

Due to the finances involved, expanding the regular season to 12 games seems to have far greater support across I-AA than does extending the post-season. It's highly unlikely that D-I powers (namely the BCS schools) will allow both to happen, as it would impact their post-season. The possibility of byes for first round playoff games make a I-AA expansion option that much less appealing.
Don't get me wrong, I am opposed to any expansion at this time, but I'm just saying if they do decide to expand, it will be to 24 and not 20.

[Brad82]

The CAA/A-10 is getting to tough and to many teams. Let URI,Maine,UNH ,Northeastern, UMass,Hofstra and Villanova take off.
Would help everybody.

[blukeys]

Agreed. With the influx of teams, however, in recent years, you will see more of a push to increase the playoffs to at least 20 teams.

I know this is going to not go over well with some, however I believe the following may occur, not today, but in a few years:

PL-

Will get to scholarship football and attract 'Nova and Richmond (Nova keeping its rivalry with UD).

CAA/AE will do some de facto behind the scenes work to get the following:

A combination of the all-hoop schools to form a great academic/athletic hoop centric league.

A football all-sport conference that will be either 12-14 (if the playoffs expand, 14 teams will be ok...multiple bids would go to this conference):

North:

Albany
Stony Brook
UNH
MAINE
UMASS
Northeastern

South:

Hofstra
Delaware
Towson
JMU
ODU
W&M

I believe URI will drop football, however if they dont, I can see going to a 14 team league.

Basically, all of this would turn out to be a 15 year re-formation of old-rivalries but in like-minded conferences.

The hoop schools would be happy and the football schools wont have their football budgets strapped by travel. The league would be in top media markets and would be filled with like-minded and sized institutions.

Just my :twocents:

I assume you are saying this is one conference with the current A-10 arrangements between North and South AND this is all sports.

I think this is an excellent proposal. I love all sports leagues and this one has many benefits.

One downside is Umass. Will they want to take what is percieved as a step down in basketball. In addition most of these schools are non prop 48
which Umass does not buy into. The upside is this would be a very solid Lacrosse conference which is a very growing sport throughout all of the East.

Maybe a conference like this will finally get UD into NCAA Ice Hockey after 30 years of screwing their hockey players. :bang: :bang: :bang:

[Umass74]

I
assume you are saying this is one conference with the current A-10 arrangements between North and South AND this is all sports.

I think this is an excellent proposal. I love all sports leagues and this one has many benefits.

One downside is Umass. Will they want to take what is percieved as a step down in basketball. In addition most of these schools are non prop 48
which Umass does not buy into. The upside is this would be a very solid Lacrosse conference which is a very growing sport throughout all of the East.


IMHO, there is zero chance of an all sports league. The only basketball league the UMass covets is a invite to the Big East. Other than that there is no chance that UMass, URI, Fordham or Richmond are leaving the A10.

Likewise, there is zero chance that UMass, UMaine or UNH are leaving Hockey East. It's a compact New England league with historic rivals.

Lacross is a different story. ECAC Lax is a kinda cludge. UMass would leave if there were something better.

America East would be a "plan B" football league if the CAA broke up. Both the UMass Coach and the AD stated that UMass wanted to stay with the current football league A10/CAA.

Just my :twocents:

[AppMan]

"and coming off a big season at the gate (7,284 fans average)"

ASU is one of eleven Division-I football playing schools in North Carolina (along with nine D-II schools) and we averaged 23,000+ per regular season home game. It is hard for our people to understand how the primary university of a state can only average 7,000 per game. I attended the ASU / UNH playoff game in 1994 and was surprised at the relaxed attitude surrounding the game. There were no gates or fences to go through and tickets were purchased as you drove into the parking lot. People left the stadium at the half and went back to their cars to warm up and get a bite to eat. It was almost like a Sunday afternoon family outing. Don't get me wrong. Their fans were some of the nicest people I've ever encountered and they were excited about the game. But, they didn't have the same passion as I have found most other places. The picture became much more clear whenever I found out their new hockey arena was going to be as large as the football stadium. You could see the excitement in their eyes and I left there with a far better understanding of the importance of hockey to those northern schools. These days I'm a full fledged Caniac and think hockey is one of the most exciting sports going. However, in the South football is still king. Always has been, always will be.

I honestly believe this (schools averaging less than 10,000 per game) is the future face of 1-aa. If you look closely at what is taking place in 1-aa you will see a clear separation taking place. There is a group of schools which places a much higher emphasis on football than the majority of 1-aa schools and down the road those guys are going to stat making some demands of the playoff system. Attendance is one aspect of the issue, but imo the bigger indication is money a school puts into the facilities to support football. Take a look at what JMU, Western Kentucky, McNeese, Appalachian, Georgia Southern, The Citadel, and a few others are doing and you get a clear picture of who is putting a lot of eggs into their football baskets.

I don't think it is a coincindence most the schools you see loading up on football facilities are the more Southern schools. IMO, a time is coming when a handful of 1-aa schools or conferences begin to make some noise of their own like the BCS schools did in 1-A. That is when things will begin to get interesting.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Kudos for "averaging" more than hockey but football hardly "outdrew men's hockey". Football has 6 home games (43,704) and hockey has what 19 home games? (130-135,000). :smiley_wi

I wondered about that myself when I read the article, but figured that even averaging more than hockey was worth noting! :nod: :p Especially considering that it is probably more than double the average attendance of two years ago.

For the record, UNH had eight home football games in 2005 included in the stats that someone linked on another thread. That would include two playoff games which are alledgedly under reported. And I counted 20 home games in hockey with two held at the Verizon Center in Manchester. Those two games in a venue holding almost 10K would virtually ensure hockey attendance was higher. I don't have access to hockey attendance figures.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Drawing 7800 after your 2 best years is not much to crow about......it may be a big deal for UNH, but JMU averaged more than that when we were 2-9.

I have mucho respect for UNH, but fans and facilities are pretty lacking(according to the UNI fellas)

Did you miss the part about 112% of capacity?

Do you recall that awful Saturday your Dukes played at UMass? Well, that was pretty much New England in mid-October when we had two home games. Weather and conditions that were so bad that we had to re-sod the field in late October/early November!!! Even Homecoming couldn't save attendance during the monsoon season. The dog game with Iona also was below capacity. So, despite two games below capacity and despite the alledged under reporting during the playoff games, we still managed to have 112% capacity for the season. I think that is a big deal.

And I don't have a doubt that if more capacity was available, then we would have had higher attendance. Only so many people are willing to stand. At some of the UNH games this season, we had 2K+ people standing. And I don't mean sitting on a nice hill like at Georgia Southern, most of these people were standing at field level not exactly close to the action.

Heaven forbid a fan from a league partner school give UNH some credit for having more than 112% capacity and for fielding a playoff team two years in a row despite those crappy facilities.

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

ASU is one of eleven Division-I football playing schools in North Carolina (along with nine D-II schools) and we averaged 23,000+ per regular season home game. It is hard for our people to understand how the primary university of a state can only average 7,000 per game. I attended the ASU / UNH playoff game in 1994 and was surprised at the relaxed attitude surrounding the game.

App, today you'd find those fences, it isn't that relaxed any more.

Back when Cowell Stadium actually held 15K, average attendance was usually 10K and usually second in the Yankee Conference until Delaware and Richmond joined. Larger homecoming crowds got offset by smaller crowds in November. During excellent seasons like the D-II playoff years of 1975 and 1976 as well as the 1977 season which started like another playoff run, Cowell was packed. The attendance record is 20K during the season ending matchup with UMass with the winner getting the auto-bid to the D-II playoffs.

But during the 90's the 10K following was gutted by terrible decisions by the administration and even worse communication of those decisions -- banning alcohol at tailgating and dropping baseball, wrestling and lacrosse. Alumni were so pissed off that attendance quickly dropped by more than 50%. Then the stadium capacity got decreased. It has been an uphill battle ever since.

Still, UNH is never going to have the types of crowds that App State enjoys. You're correct, football is viewed differently up here. Even with stadium enhancements, I'm not sure we'd have the 15K capacity of old. But isn't it more important that the product on the field is high quality?

One of these days I'm going to do research to obtain the total population and square miles of New England and the total number of football playing colleges (there are quite a few D-II and D-III schools). The D-IA is easy with Boston College and UConn. Within D-IAA, we have Maine, UNH, Dartmouth, Harvard, Northeastern, Holy Cross, UMass, Brown, Rhode Island, Central CT, Yale and Sacred Heart. Did I miss any? You add in all the D-II and D-III schools as well as all the HS Football games on Saturday afternoon and you have a lot of competition. And I'd love to see how many NH residents and UNH alumni are Patriot season ticket holders. Believe it or not, but attendance suffers at hockey games when they go head to head with a Patriots game, especially a playoff game.

You also have to add in the driving factor. In general folks in the Northeast don't drive the long distances that I read about from the posters in the South and West. Probably because some many high population areas are encountered. People are always shocked when I tell them I take day trips to UNH to watch a football or basketball game!

[UNHWildCats]

It's important to point out that Durham isnt easily accesible to most areas of the state with no major highway running near it and that surely effects any possible crowds.

The easiest way to get to Durham using a major highway involves going to Manchester, NH catching state highway 101 to epping taking 125 for 5 or six miles then smaller roads into Durham.

[mainejeff]

Isn't Durham 20 minutes off I-95?:confused:

[*****]

App, today you'd find those fences, it isn't that relaxed any more...Aw, don't let that guy get to ya. Congrats to the UNH program for the progress made. Let the naysayers wallow in their bogs. :nod:

[UNHWildCats]

Isn't Durham 20 minutes off I-95?:confused:

Sure, but access to I-95 for most granite staters invlolves either going into Manchester and taking state highway 101 for about 50 mins then a smaller state highway another 20 minutes to get to it, or going into Mass on I-93 then back tracking up I-95. There just isnt any easy access to Durham if your comming from any part of New Hampshire that isnt the seacoast.

[mainejeff]

Sure, but access to I-95 for most granite staters invlolves either going into Manchester and taking state highway 101 for about 50 mins then a smaller state highway another 20 minutes to get to it, or going into Mass on I-93 then back tracking up I-95. There just isnt any easy access to Durham if your comming from any part of New Hampshire that isnt the seacoast.

True, but what % of UNH grads live in the Portland/Portsmouth/Boston beltway?

[colgate13]

IMHO, there is zero chance of an all sports league. The only basketball league the UMass covets is a invite to the Big East. Other than that there is no chance that UMass, URI, Fordham or Richmond are leaving the A10.

My :twocents::

Fordham and Richmond as all sports members of the Patriot League, including basketball, has a chance of happening if PL basketball can get on par with the A-10. This can happen if Bucknell can maintain its momentum, Holy Cross finally breaks through from an almost to a player, and some other team (Lehigh, Lafayette, American) elevates their game. This can happen in the next 10 years.

[colgate13]

ASU is one of eleven Division-I football playing schools in North Carolina (along with nine D-II schools) and we averaged 23,000+ per regular season home game. It is hard for our people to understand how the primary university of a state can only average 7,000 per game.
North Carolina is the 11th most populous state in the union, with a total of 8,683,242 people. (link (http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004986.html))

New Hampshire is the 41st most populous state in the union, with a total of 1,309,940 people.

Does that help any?



I honestly believe this (schools averaging less than 10,000 per game) is the future face of 1-aa. If you look closely at what is taking place in 1-aa you will see a clear separation taking place. There is a group of schools which places a much higher emphasis on football than the majority of 1-aa schools and down the road those guys are going to stat making some demands of the playoff system. Attendance is one aspect of the issue, but imo the bigger indication is money a school puts into the facilities to support football. Take a look at what JMU, Western Kentucky, McNeese, Appalachian, Georgia Southern, The Citadel, and a few others are doing and you get a clear picture of who is putting a lot of eggs into their football baskets.
In terms of pure dollars, I don't believe any conferences spend more on their football programs than the Patriot League. Are these schools placing a lesser emphasis on football than the majority of I-AA schools that draw higher attendances? Does Lafayette building a $20+ million dollar stadium, that probably won't even average half of what App. State does, mean that it places less of an emphasis on football because of lower attendance?

I don't think that picture that you speak of is so clear. I also think you are confusing regional differences for football interest. There is more than one way to have a I-AA program. :twocents:

[DFW HOYA]

My :twocents::

Fordham and Richmond as all sports members of the Patriot League, including basketball, has a chance of happening if PL basketball can get on par with the A-10. This can happen if Bucknell can maintain its momentum, Holy Cross finally breaks through from an almost to a player, and some other team (Lehigh, Lafayette, American) elevates their game. This can happen in the next 10 years.

Richmond is not going to give up its in-state traditional rivals (W&M in specific, JMU to a lesser extent) in all sports for the PL--last season's fan uprising reconfirmed this.

VMI is a more realistic target at this point.

[colgate13]

Richmond is not going to give up its in-state traditional rivals (W&M in specific, JMU to a lesser extent) in all sports for the PL--last season's fan uprising reconfirmed this.

:confused:

You've lost me here. Richmond is in the A-10 for all sports. W&M and JMU are in the CAA in all sports. Any games played besides football are out of conference. How does a move to the Patriot change this? Richmond would still need to schedule OOC games.