I-A at a I-AA question

[McNeese72]

For informational purposes and since the 2000 season, has there been any I-A teams that have played at a I-AA's stadium besides Idaho at Montana in 2003?

Thanks,
Doc

[89Hen]

Not since 2000, but Navy and Temple have both played several times in Newark and in 1985 they both came and lost in Newark (and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

Technically Colagate also came to Newark as a I-A when the Hens were DII.

[McNeese72]

Not since 2000, but Navy and Temple have both played several times in Newark and in 1985 they both came and lost in Newark (and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

Technically Colagate also came to Newark as a I-A when the Hens were DII.

Thanks, but I'm looking for any since the year 2000. I couldn't think of any except Idaho-Montana.

Doc

How's everything up in Hen Land?

[89Hen]

I couldn't think of any except Idaho-Montana
Really on a technicality...

2004 FAU @ Texas State and Northern Colorado
2004 FIU @ Youngstown and SFA

[McNeese72]

Really on a technicality...

2004 FAU @ Texas State and Northern Colorado
2004 FIU @ Youngstown and SFA

That won't help in the discussion I was having because they were really in transition years during that time.

Thanks,
Doc

[rufus]

The MAC no longer allows its teams to play at I-AAs. MAC teams played at YSU fairly frequently through the early/mid 1990's, and didn't perform too well. The conference decided to put a stop to it. The days of I-As playing at I-AAs are over. Pitt will play at Ohio (average attendance 15,000), but not at Delaware (average attendance 22,000). When you label yourself a second-class citizen (I-AA), you have to expect that others are going to treat you that way.

[oldsouthernman]

Going back many years, but Chattanooga beat SW Louisiana at home in 83 and beat LaTech at home in 87.

[89Hen]

When you label yourself a second-class citizen (I-AA), you have to expect that others are going to treat you that way.
rufus pining for I-A again. :rolleyes:

[BLUE TIGER]

JSU played at USM in 2002 and USM's HC wanted to play the game in Jackson because we had 30,000 more seats. He stated that it made sense and everyone could have doubled their profits.

[rufus]

rufus pining for I-A again. :rolleyes:
You know it. :D

[*****]

That won't help in the discussion I was having because they were really in transition years during that time.Well, both had more scholarships awarded than I-AA allows so...

[CrunchGriz]

For informational purposes and since the 2000 season, has there been any I-A teams that have played at a I-AA's stadium besides Idaho at Montana in 2003?

Thanks,
Doc


You can add Idaho at Montana in 2001, as well. (Both the 2001 and 2003 games were Idaho losses--not to mention the Idaho losses to the Griz in WSU's stadium in 2000 and in the Kibbie Dome in Moscow, Idaho in 2002--the last four games between the two teams.)

[WUTNDITWAA]

When you label yourself a second-class citizen (I-AA), you have to expect that others are going to treat you that way.


:hurray: :hurray: :hurray: :bow: :bow: :bow: :nod: :nod: :nod:

[SoCon48]

Not since 2000, but Navy and Temple have both played several times in Newark and in 1985 they both came and lost in Newark

Technically Colagate also came to Newark as a I-A when the Hens were DII.
(and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

I think the selection committee looked at their 4-7 records and your season ending loss at home.

[89Hen]

(and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

I think the selection committee looked at their 4-7 records and your season ending loss at home.
I wasn't complaing, the Hens didn't deserve to make the playoffs that year, it was just a crazy year.

[SoCon48]

I wasn't complaing, the Hens didn't deserve to make the playoffs that year, it was just a crazy year.

I know. I just wanted to get that in.

[HensRock]

I think the selection committee looked at their 4-7 records and your season ending loss at home.

For the record, the Hens were 7-4 that year, not 4-7. Still not saying we deserved playoff consideration, but other people reading the thread might think - no wonder at 4-7 !

[89Hen]

For the record, the Hens were 7-4 that year, not 4-7. Still not saying we deserved playoff consideration, but other people reading the thread might think - no wonder at 4-7 !
I think he was talking about Navy and Temple being 4-7. That said, the 1985 UD team was one of the best 7-4 teams you'll find IMHO.

[HensRock]

Not since 2000, but Navy and Temple have both played several times in Newark and in 1985 they both came and lost in Newark (and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

Technically Colagate also came to Newark as a I-A when the Hens were DII.

Navy came to Newark as late as 89 but I think that was the last time a I-A team came to Newark.

In the 70's when the Hens were in Division II, Division I/I-A teams Navy, Colgate, Rutgers, Temple, Villanova, and William & Mary were regular visitors to Newark.

The 1979 Div-II Champion Blue Hens played 4 I-A teams and I-AA National runner-up Lehigh that year. They lost only one game (to Temple in Newark).

[DTSpider]

I think he was talking about Navy and Temple being 4-7. That said, the 1985 UD team was one of the best 7-4 teams you'll find IMHO.

Just don't say that around JMU fans or MM.

[DTSpider]

It's funny how much things can change in 20 years. In 1986 Virginia Tech played at Richmond. Now I think that Tech averages about 10 times as many fans per home game.

[*****]

The MAC no longer allows its teams to play at I-AAs... When you label yourself a second-class citizen (I-AA), you have to expect that others are going to treat you that way.Is that in the MAC bylaws? Got a link?

It's a true pity that you call I-AA "a second-class citizen". It's the highest football champion the NCAA recognizes. Hardly second-class. And to see it coming from two AGS members who are fans of champion teams is sickening.

:pumpuke:

BTW, the results of all the I-AA vs. I-A ('00-'05) games is here:
http://i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=46828
(please report any ommissions or errors)

[EKU05]

I don't have a link either, but I've heard it from numerous other places that the MAC no longer allows that. Smart decision on their part to avoid further embarassment. Bad decision from the perspective of the spirit of competition. Just out of curiosity, how many 1AA teams are playing on the road against D2 opponents?

In semi-defense of Rufus (I guess)...as much as we all love 1AA I don't think the term "second-class citizen" is entirely inappropriate. If you look at the way the sports world views us it's quite true. It is the highest level of NCAA championship football, but only because the higher level has something else that they prefer to do (the argument over which postseason works better is irrelevant here.)

I have more fun watching 1AA football because I went to EKU and I love my school. 1AA football, for its fans, is every bit as entertaining as 1A football (and I would argue more so). Second class citizen implies that we're considering the way that others view us. I'm sure no one ever labled themself that when those kinds of terms were used in society.

I guess all I'm saying is that what we know about our own level and our place in the sports world as determined by perception of people are two very different things. It's kind of like someone who choses a profession that someone else might call "second class." You can't change how society view what you do, but hopefully it doesn't stop people from doing what they love. For us...we love 1AA football no matter what the sports world at-large might say about that.

I guess using that terms depends on the context in which it is used.

[*****]

... I don't think the term "second-class citizen" is entirely inappropriate. If you look at the way the sports world views us it's quite true...So what is first-class, the NFL? Anyway, it is frustrating to me and many other I-AA fans that supporters of champ teams, because of some sort of envy, cannot help themselves from denigrating I-AA and their own teams in those terms.

[rufus]

I have more fun watching 1AA football because I went to EKU and I love my school. 1AA football, for its fans, is every bit as entertaining as 1A football (and I would argue more so). Second class citizen implies that we're considering the way that others view us. I'm sure no one ever labled themself that when those kinds of terms were used in society.
I couldn't agree more with that paragraph.

Separate is inherently unequal -- ask the supreme court (Brown v. Board). :) But seriously, separation breeds inequality and college football is no exception. My point is I-AAs biggest problem is that of image. By separating ourselves into a cost containment division, we have given larger schools an excuse to say "you don't get home games with us -- you're I-AA". Meanwhile Sun Belt schools can get home games with top non-BCS I-As and even the occasional BCS team.

Why is that do you think? The quality of play is lower than sevral I-AA conferences. The attendance is similar to the top tier of I-AA. And yet you see Memphis, Vanderbilt, Virginia, and Maryland on the schedule at MTSU and West Chester on the schedule at Delaware. If we were all one big Division I, Delaware could have those kind of home games lined up. The issue is image.

[EKU05]

The NFL exists in an entirely different society so to speak I guess. I think it could at least argued that "major" college football is more popular than the NFL...at least some teams. You don't see any NFL teams drawing over 100,000 per game. There are probably 4 to 5 college teams that do that. It's all a matter of what you are considering. Certainly the MAC is not in the NFL's realm of popularity, but the SEC or the Big 10 just might be.

I do understand the frustration, though. I have my things too. Nothing gets me like having a I-AA fan call I-A "Division 1." (Not even the NCAA is that bad...lol)

[blukeys]

So what is first-class, the NFL? Anyway, it is frustrating to me and many other I-AA fans that supporters of champ teams, because of some sort of envy, cannot help themselves from denigrating I-AA and their own teams in those terms.


I agree but what is interesting in this and the MAC discussion is that Temple initiated discussions with UD about a game earlier this year. Delaware wanted home and home and Temple insisted that all games be in Philly at the Linc. UD negotiators pointed out that 70% of the crowd would be Delaware fans and that Temple would be making money off the Delaware attendance without a return visit to Newark. Temple would not get off their insistence that all games should be home games for Temple so the discussions ended.

I happen to agree with our AD on this one and I am no fan of Johnson. A home only arrangement with Syracuse or Maryland is one thing but Temple??????????????

For those of you looking for a I-A home game keep this example in mind. Delaware's home attendance dwarfs Temples but still they held the hard line in home games. xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx

[erichwhite]

I agree but what is interesting in this and the MAC discussion is that Temple initiated discussions with UD about a game earlier this year. Delaware wanted home and home and Temple insisted that all games be in Philly at the Linc. UD negotiators pointed out that 70% of the crowd would be Delaware fans and that Temple would be making money off the Delaware attendance without a return visit to Newark. Temple would not get off their insistence that all games should be home games for Temple so the discussions ended.

I happen to agree with our AD on this one and I am no fan of Johnson. A home only arrangement with Syracuse or Maryland is one thing but Temple??????????????

For those of you looking for a I-A home game keep this example in mind. Delaware's home attendance dwarfs Temples but still they held the hard line in home games. xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx xidiotx...Kudos to your AD to not succumbing to that ludicrous mainstream thinking!!! Div.1A already has a huge scholarship advantage which almost always manifests itself in the second half of a game. They generally are getting " first choice" on their athletes in comparison w/ 1AA programs. However, putting aside those formidable disadvantages, $$$ is what drives college football these days. I'm not saying that my school ( JMU ) should get home and homes with the likes of Virginia Tech. Not until the monetary playing field is level and it makes fiscal sense. But schools like Akron( who stopped a rivalry with a Youngstown program that outdraws them ), Wake Forest( who never played App. St. home & home despite the fact that for most years attendance would have been similar regardless of venue, and Temple not agreeing to a home and home with Delaware, even though Delaware vastly outdraws them- they have no ground to sstand on. If they do not want to schedule them, that is their right. But don't come to the 1AAs with the arrogance that their 1A moniker grants them special priviledge. They've already got several built in advantages. But if they can't "walk the walk" and bring the money to the table with superior attendance, then you gotta agree to a home and home. Anything short of that pretty much says, " We can't cut it @ 1A and need to do anything possible to try to maintain our 1A status". Division 1AA programs get a financial and exposure boost from playing a BCS 1A, especially if they play well. Agreeing to play a Duke, Temple, Akron etc. on the road ( w/o a return game) when you can argue the 1AA has the better program & attendance is ludicrous. You'd get more $$ out of scheduling another home 1AA game. My school, JMU, will play Duke in 2008. By that point, it would not surprise me if our respective attendance was roughly equal. Right now, before we've added an additional 1500 seats, we're about 4000 less per game than Duke. If you take out their UNC, NC St. & Clemson games that are filled with opposing fans------they don't draw crap!...Once again, KUDOS to Delaware for not bowing down to a lesser program.

[Tod]

2000 I-AA versus I-A, 45 Games, I-AA record: 14-31

...
...

10/5 W Samford 6, at North Texas 41

[SoCon48]

Just out of curiosity, how many 1AA teams are playing on the road against D2 opponents?

Good point.

[RabidRabbit]

There are three leagues in I-A that are barely removed from I-AA, Sunbelt, MAC, WAC. Attendence at these league member's games are equal to or less than the nearby I-AA schools. We are ALL DIV. I members. Therefore, these victories or losses count toward the 7 wins over Div I members for selection to the play-offs.

The primary reasons for playing a BCS power team is for the guaranteed $$. In that case, if the I-A schools paying for almost sure win, I-AA school goes to the I-A school. However, with the three "weak" I-A conferences, the I-AA schools should take the Delaware lead and make the case that playing at the I-A vs I-AA makes no sense, because more money to be made at home. Especially true if this will be a good ""local" make up. But do need to make the case that we would likely outdraw these schools for the game.

My :twocents:

[rufus]

I personally think that I-AA conferences should consider barring their teams from playing guarantee games against I-As, much like the MVC and Horizon have barred their teams from playing guarantee games in basketball. With a 12 game season in I-A, there is an increased demand for I-AA games. And with the I-AA season staying at 11 games, there is not an increased supply of I-AA games available. Division I-AA could force non-BCS teams into giving us home games if we banded together and demanded it. Of course it won't happen, because someone is always willing to whore themselves out. If Delaware won't give Temple a guarantee game, someone else will.

The real point of my "second-class citizen" comment, is illustrated by the Delaware/Temple situation. Do you think Temple would have any problem with a home and home if Delaware slapped a I-A Sun Belt label on itself? It's not like the Sun Belt is an upgrade in terms of quality, but it's not about quality. It's about perception.

[ncbears]

Not since 2000, but Navy and Temple have both played several times in Newark and in 1985 they both came and lost in Newark (and the Hens didn't even make the playoffs that year).

Technically Colagate also came to Newark as a I-A when the Hens were DII.


That's not true. Florida Atlantic came to Nottingham field in 2004 to play Northern Colorado.

[EKU05]

That's not true. Florida Atlantic came to Nottingham field in 2004 to play Northern Colorado.

I could be wrong, but wasn't that their final transitional year? I think the thread already determined that doesn't count. Even if they were a full 1A the deal would have been signed before that happened...so again it would be a mere technicality.

[Ronbo]

There are three leagues in I-A that are barely removed from I-AA, Sunbelt, MAC, WAC. Attendence at these league member's games are equal to or less than the nearby I-AA schools. We are ALL DIV. I members. Therefore, these victories or losses count toward the 7 wins over Div I members for selection to the play-offs.

The primary reasons for playing a BCS power team is for the guaranteed $$. In that case, if the I-A schools paying for almost sure win, I-AA school goes to the I-A school. However, with the three "weak" I-A conferences, the I-AA schools should take the Delaware lead and make the case that playing at the I-A vs I-AA makes no sense, because more money to be made at home. Especially true if this will be a good ""local" make up. But do need to make the case that we would likely outdraw these schools for the game.

My :twocents:

What? Big Sky vs. WAC

Sac. State 5833
Portland State 6597
EWU 7090
NAU 7909
ISU 8480
Weber 10,151
MSU 13,710
UM 22,465

Utah State 10,896
San Jose State 12,506
New Mexico State 12,557
Nevada 15,076
Idaho 15,175
Lousiana Tech 16,416
Boise State 30,112
Hawaii 32,735
Fresno State 39,307

Montana leads I-AA and we would be 4th in the WAC. In fact the top 3 in the Big Sky would be 4th, 7th, and last in the WAC.

[RabidRabbit]

What? Big Sky vs. WAC

Sac. State 5833
Portland State 6597
EWU 7090
NAU 7909
ISU 8480
Weber 10,151
MSU 13,710
UM 22,465

Utah State 10,896
San Jose State 12,506
New Mexico State 12,557
Nevada 15,076
Idaho 15,175
Lousiana Tech 16,416
Boise State 30,112
Hawaii 32,735
Fresno State 39,307

Montana leads I-AA and we would be 4th in the WAC. In fact the top 3 in the Big Sky would be 4th, 7th, and last in the WAC.

Agreed Ronbo - If Utah St., San Jose St., NM St. comes to MT or Mt SU for a game, why not work through a home/home approach. If they're not in the $650K/guarantee, playing at MT will earn more money FOR BOTH SCHOOLS than playing at any of those three.

MAC vs Gateway would have similar opportunities.

[89Hen]

That's not true. Florida Atlantic came to Nottingham field in 2004 to play Northern Colorado.
I actually posted that game later in the thread. I was referring to no I-A's coming to Delaware since 2000.

[ncbears]

I actually posted that game later in the thread. I was referring to no I-A's coming to Delaware since 2000.


Sorry, my bad.

[*****]

Just out of curiosity, how many 1AA teams are playing on the road against D2 opponents?
Good point.What's good about that point? Those are different NCAA divisions. Anyway, more I-AA teams play at D-II teams than I-A play at I-AA.

[SoCon48]

What's good about that point? Those are different NCAA divisions. Anyway, more I-AA teams play at D-II teams than I-A play at I-AA.
Still a step up or down conceptually.

[*****]

Still a step up or down conceptually.You do realize the difference between D-I and D-II, right? You can't compare two teams in the same division playing each other with teams from different divisions playing each other. D-I games don't matter to D-II teams and vice-versa.

[EKU05]

There are a few differences, but to say that a game against a D2 opponent doesn't matter is going a bit far (if I understood you correctly). Are you really going to try and argue that no one on that selection committee would EVER think to themselves..."Gee, they only beat that weak D2 team by 17, I don't think they deserve to get in."

In football (unlike basketball)...all of the games matter. In fact, I remember specifically when a D2 opponent kept EKU out of the playoffs.

It is a little bit more complicated because 1A and 1AA exist as one unit in all other sports, but let's look at this logically.

-1A gets 22 more scholarships that 1AA
-1AA gets 23 more scholarships than D2

-Division I players can play immediately when transfering to a D2 school per the NCAAs rule on transfering to a differnt division
-The same is true of 1A to 1AA transfers (save for the brand new rule about players with only one remaining year of eligibility).

To talk about public interest again (because like it or not it is relevant in terms of who will play where)...
-Last year the average 1AA team attracted 18.5% of the attendance of the average 1A team
-Last year the average D2 team attracted 45% of the attendance of the average 1AA team

I think from the above you can draw the following conclusion...While 1A and 1AA are TECHNICALLY part of the same Division, they are for all practical purposes two different ones...and that's ok! I just feel like the argument that we are the highest level of NCAA championship football is a little empty due to the reason that it is Division I-A's choice to not have a formal championship. It would different if it were for the reason that the NCAA loved us more (we all know that's a joke...they've screwed us and broken promises of TV coverage since day1).

Now why would I point all of this out? Because I love 1AA for exactly what it is, and I want others to feel the same way. I don't feel the need to claim a non-existant equality with Division I-A to validate for me that DIVISION I-AA FOOTBALL RULES, and is the best level of college football for me to be a fan of.

[*****]

... all of the games matter...
...While 1A and 1AA are TECHNICALLY part of the same Division, they are for all practical purposes two different ones..."a few differences"???? Does a D-II game count towards a I-AA playoff chance or towards a I-A bowl chance? No. Does a I-AA or I-A game count towards a D-II playoff chance? No.

Does either a I-AA or I-A game count towards a D-I postseason chance for a D-I team? Yes.

BTW, why do you spell NCAA divisions with arabic numerals when they are supposed to be spelled with roman numerals?:p

Also, "two different ones" is not an apt description. Three different ones is probably better. Traditional BCS (semi-pros) are one, the rest of I-A are another and I-AA are yet another. I-AA plays the BCS as well or better than the rest of I-A does. Period.

[EKU05]

It's kind of an abreviation (though admitedly not much shorter)...notice that at certain times I also write it out correctly. It's just like doing things like D2...obviously the correct way to write it would be Division-II. You're focusing too much on technicalities rather than realities...I (no joke) overdid it on the "1AAs" in my last post to see if that would become part of the argument when in reality it's not relevant. Sure enough I was proven correct.

And yes, a game between a I-AA team and a Division II team DOES count toward a I-AA playoff appearance. The members of the selection committee are absolutely considering those when they make the at large selections. Granted, at this point most of the teams getting into the playoffs are avoiding playing those kinds of games (I'd have to check up on the exact stats...but I would assume that to be true).

And to elaborate on another point you made...yes I-AA teams absolutely do play BCS teams as well as non-BCS I-A teams do, but I would suspect the same would be true of Division II teams playing against the cream of the crop in IAA as well as teams from weaker IAA conferences (wow, that's a complicated sentence). But for the record, this argument was never about how we're better on the field than people give us credit for (if you'll look back at my posts you'll see that my point all along was that we could be considered second class citizens because of how we are perceived and treated by others IN SPITE OF OUR RELATIVE SUCCESS ON THE FIELD. That's why none of the stats I used had ANYTHING AT ALL to do with on field performance. That was by design. In essence, you've actually just made my point. We agree more than you realize Ralph.

[EKU05]

By the way, I would agree on your labeling of Division I as three different divisions in reality. That makes quite a bit of sense. Though, there is SOME possibility that a truly stellar season from a non-BCS team could get them into a BCS Bowl (Utah is living proof). There is no chance that a I-AA team could get a Bowl Bid of any kind (not that we are pining away for the New Orleans Bowl...AKA where the Sunbelt goes to prove how truly pathetic it is).

[*****]

... I (no joke) overdid it on the "1AAs" in my last post... yes, a game between a I-AA team and a Division II team DOES count toward a I-AA playoff appearance...Good to read you have fun at I-AA's expense. :p

To be considered for playoff selection a I-AA team should have seven D-I victories. Beating a D-II team has no effect.

[Tod]

"a few differences"???? Does a D-II game count towards a I-AA playoff chance or towards a I-A bowl chance? No. Does a I-AA or I-A game count towards a D-II playoff chance? No.

Does either a I-AA or I-A game count towards a D-I postseason chance for a D-I team? Yes.

BTW, why do you spell NCAA divisions with arabic numerals when they are supposed to be spelled with roman numerals?:p

Also, "two different ones" is not an apt description. Three different ones is probably better. Traditional BCS (semi-pros) are one, the rest of I-A are another and I-AA are yet another. I-AA plays the BCS as well or better than the rest of I-A does. Period.

I'd say four. Non-scholly being the fourth.

[Tod]

Good to read you have fun at I-AA's expense. :p

To be considered for playoff selection a I-AA team should have seven D-I victories. Beating a D-II team has no effect.

I don't know that I'd agree it has no effect, Ralph. I think a 7-4 team with all seven wins being D-I has less chance than an 8-3 team with a D-II win.

[EKU05]

You're missing my point Ralph. It may not count in the needed # of victories, but it is still considered in terms of a team's overall performance and schedule if that team is being considered for an at large bid. That's all I'm saying there.

Also, until recently a I-A team could only count a win over us once every 4 years. That's almost more of a slap in the face than not allowing it at all. The fact that things seems to be going in a different direction is a truly positive step for I-AA football.

[*****]

Losing to a D-II team is what hurts, beating them with the divisional difference should be a given. It's not just a schollie/equiv. difference when it is between divisions. Also, I-A has 85 full schollies and I-AA has 63 equivs IIRC...

[EKU05]

A few year ago an EKU team that everyone assumed would get an at-large bid (I'm talking about 2001 if you want to check up on this) was left out after a stellar season because of a weak non-conference schedule. Now that OOC schedule included a I-A team, so I can only assume that most of that "Weakness" came in the form of the Division II opponent we played that year. We beat them 60-7 I do believe. It shouldn't have mattered, but it did.

(I seriously might be off on this) but doesn't the I-AA bylaw state that a team with less than 7 Division I wins will be "placed in danger" of not making the playoffs? Even if it basically never happens I didn't think it was an absolue rule. I know it was that way when it was about 3 losses instead of 7 wins. But then again, now I'm talking about technicalites so I suppose I should practice what I preach.

[*****]

I'd say four. Non-scholly being the fourth.D-I is D-I.

[EKU05]

I think his point is that there is a distinction to be made there just as in I-A with BCS vs. Non-BCS...just as you correctly pointed out Ralph. I think we're all in agreement that any Division-I program playing football deserves to be referred to as such. At least I hope we would all agree on that.

[*****]

... doesn't the I-AA bylaw state that a team with less than 7 Division I wins will be "placed in danger" of not making the playoffs?...Yeah, they like the leeway. On WAVES the chairman talked about it this past year. 7 D-I win teams get considered first.

[EKU05]

That reminds of the time that North Texas became the first team with a losing record (5-6) to go to a Bowl because they won the Sunbelt (pretty convincingly I believe) in spite of having 6 losses. Only the Sunbelt could acheive that dubious accomplishment.

[*****]

I think his point is that there is a distinction to be made there just as in I-A with BCS vs. Non-BCS...just as you correctly pointed out Ralph. I think we're all in agreement that any Division-I program playing football deserves to be referred to as such. At least I hope we would all agree on that.I thank you sincerely for the reasoned discussion tonight EKU05. The point I am making is that a D-I win helps I-AA teams make the playoffs. A D-II win doesn't. A D-II loss hurts. If it is a I-A BCS trad win, a trad non-BCS-I-A win, a I-AA schollie/etc. win or a non-schollie/etc. I-AA win... it is all the same. It counts towards playoff eligibility.

[Tod]

D-I is D-I.

Well...yeah, but you yourself divided it into three categories. If it's not impossible for a non-BCS team to get a BCS bowl bid (but unlikely), and it's not impossible for a non-scholly to make the playoffs (even less likely) then I think my point is as valid as yours.

[Tod]

I thank you sincerely for the reasoned discussion tonight EKU05. The point I am making is that a D-I win helps I-AA teams make the playoffs. A D-II win doesn't. A D-II loss hurts. If it is a I-A BCS trad win, a trad non-BCS-I-A win, a I-AA schollie win or a non-schollie I-AA win... it is all the same. It counts towards playoff eligibility.

Point taken.

[EKU05]

Same to you Ralph...I'm certainly not here to bash I-AA football...I'm a big fan. I guess I'm just kind of a realist when it comes to our place in the stratosphere of sports. Obviously I would like to see that place change...as would we all.

[*****]

Well...yeah, but you yourself divided it into three categories. If it's not impossible for a non-BCS team to get a BCS bowl bid (but unlikely), and it's not impossible for a non-scholly to make the playoffs (even less likely) then I think my point is as valid as yours.What, it has happened once in I-A and not once in I-AA IIRC? BTW, all I-A teams have the same amount of schollies...

[BigApp]

Just out of curiosity, how many 1AA teams are playing on the road against D2 opponents?

Only one that I know of:

Savannah St @ Johnson C Smith

[BigApp]

D-I is D-I.

No it isn't, unless you believe your Plymouth Neon is a Mercedes-Benz...even if it is the same company, it ain't the same car.

[EKU05]

Savannah State tends to get roped into unusual things in all sports because they are independent. Thanks for doing the research I was too lazy to do, BigApp.

[BigApp]

no problemo!

[McTailGator]

Is that in the MAC bylaws? Got a link?

It's a true pity that you call I-AA "a second-class citizen". It's the highest football champion the NCAA recognizes. Hardly second-class. And to see it coming from two AGS members who are fans of champion teams is sickening.

:pumpuke:

BTW, the results of all the I-AA vs. I-A ('00-'05) games is here:
http://i-aa.org/article.asp?articleid=46828
(please report any ommissions or errors)




I remember reading that somewhere about the MAC as well. Don't have a link though.

[*****]

No it isn't...:rolleyes: xidiotx : retard : :boring:

[SoCon48]

Also, until recently a I-A team could only count a win over us once every 4 yearsThat's almost more of a slap in the face than not allowing it at all.

Ditto

[*****]

Also, until recently a I-A team could only count a win over us once every 4 yearsThat's almost more of a slap in the face than not allowing it at all.
DittoProbably why they changed it.

[SoCon48]

-1A gets 22 more scholarships that 1AA
-1AA gets 23 more scholarships than D2

6 of one, half a dozen of the other it sounds like to me.

[arkstfan]

That reminds of the time that North Texas became the first team with a losing record (5-6) to go to a Bowl because they won the Sunbelt (pretty convincingly I believe) in spite of having 6 losses. Only the Sunbelt could acheive that dubious accomplishment.

That's not true. First there have been others to make a bowl with a losing record (the SWC nearly managed that its final year because TAMU was on probation) and second they were conference co-champions with 8-3 Middle Tennessee State but at the time the conference rule was in a head-to-head tie winner of the head-to-head game goes to New Orleans and UNT had given MTSU their only league loss.

[EKU05]

-1A gets 22 more scholarships that 1AA
-1AA gets 23 more scholarships than D2

6 of one, half a dozen of the other it sounds like to me.

That was actually my point. I was trying to point out that the differences were between I-A and I-AA are, in reality, very similar to the ones between I-AA and II...the exception to that is the attendance stat that I figured out which suggests the gap is larger in one case.

[EKU05]

That's not true. First there have been others to make a bowl with a losing record (the SWC nearly managed that its final year because TAMU was on probation) and second they were conference co-champions with 8-3 Middle Tennessee State but at the time the conference rule was in a head-to-head tie winner of the head-to-head game goes to New Orleans and UNT had given MTSU their only league loss.

Well, if it wasn't the first, it was the first in a while (and almost only counts in horseshoes and handgranades). The bottom line is the SBC, competatively, would not even be the best conference in I-AA (despite having the obvious advantage of 23 extra scholarships). In fact, Western Kentucky (who we all know has been toying with making the jump for a long time) would be joining a lesser football conference (again, in terms of what is happening on the field) if they went I-A in the SBC. As I remember, most of the computer rankings will bear that out. I think even most of the SBC's own football members view it as a transitional conference (certainly not all, but enough to make it dangerous for the league). FAU has stated this in no uncertain terms.

[*****]

That was actually my point. I was trying to point out that the differences were between I-A and I-AA are, in reality, very similar to the ones between I-AA and II...the exception to that is the attendance stat that I figured out which suggests the gap is larger in one case.The gap between D-I and D-II is the main difference. Since I-AA and I-A are in the same division they are much more similar than a school in another division.

[Tod]

-1A gets 22 more scholarships that 1AA
-1AA gets 23 more scholarships than D2

6 of one, half a dozen of the other it sounds like to me.

I thought the max in D-II was 36. If that's the case, the differenct between them and I-AA is 27.

Not so?

Right or wrong, simply comparing numbers is not the best way to figure a teams strength.

Figure that there are 22 starters on O and D, there's a kicker and punter, and other special teams players (that normally would be in the count anyway, but whatever).

With 85 schollies, a I-A team get to very nearly fill an entire roster every year, on both sides of the ball (average of 21.25 schollies each year)

I-AA teams have to decide which six or seven spots they can't fill (average of 16.25 each year).

Div II teams get to fill, on average, only nine positions each season. There's a lot more pressure to make the right calls.

Even if I'm wrong on the D-II number, I think the point is clear.

:) :) :)

[EKU05]

Maybe you're right...I was thinking it was an even 40...but that was the only one of the three sets of Stats that I didn't actually research. I definitely could have been off by 4 there.

[EKU05]

I looked it up, it is 36, and it looks like they recently struck down a proposal that would have made it 24. Seems like a lot of teams that don't/can't give out 36 are complaining about a competative disadvantage.