Did Tom Yeager just announce the CAA is moving to FBS?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

As noted in another thread, Tom Yeager (the CAA Commissioner) made an interesting statement regarding Georgia State's move to the Sun Belt.


Georgia State's withdrawal from the CAA and CAA Football is predicated on the university's desire to reclassify to FBS football which requires membership in an FBS league. We've been aware that GSU was having discussions with the Sun Belt Conference as the CAA could not accommodate that desire within GSU's timeframe.

It could be a simple case of misspeaking, but it seems as if he's saying that the CAA apparently has plans to become a FBS league.

I decided to peruse the NCAA bylaws, and here is the section regarding conference affiliation for FBS membership:



20.4.2.1.1 Eligibility for Reclassification. Before a Football Championship Subdivision institution
may apply for reclassification to the Football Bowl Subdivision, the institution must receive a bona fide invitation
for membership from a Football Bowl Subdivision conference or a conference that previously met the
definition of a Football Bowl Subdivision conference (see Bylaw 20.02.6). (Adopted: 1/15/11 effective 8/1/11)


The Bylaw 20.02.6 that is mentioned is this:



20.02.6 Football Bowl Subdivision Conference. A conference classified as a Football Bowl Subdivision
conference shall be comprised of at least eight full Football Bowl Subdivision members that satisfy all bowl subdivision
requirements. An institution shall be included as one of the eight full Football Bowl Subdivision members
only if the institution participates in the conference schedule in at least six men’s and eight women’s conferencesponsored
sports, including men’s basketball and football and three women’s team sports including women’s basketball.
A conference-sponsored sport shall be a sport in which regular-season and/or championship opportunities
are provided, consistent with the minimum standards identified by the applicable NCAA sport committee for
automatic qualification. (Adopted: 10/31/02 effective 8/1/05, Revised: 12/15/06)


So, apparently it's a Catch-22 for a conference to move up together - a FCS team needs a FBS conference to sponsor the move with an invitation, but a conference can't count as FBS unless 8 of the schools are already considered FBS.

Assuming Yeager did mean that the CAA was trying to move up as a conference, that leaves two possibilities:
1. There are plans for the CAA to absorb some current FBS schools which may feel lost in the shuffle of conference re-alignment in order to get to the magic 8 number before moving up any of the current FCS teams (this seems unlikely, I don't know which schools would jump for this)
2. Somehow a waiver is being worked on that would allow 8 schools to move at once and become the FBS members to effectively invite themselves to the new FBS conference.

If this is true, it brings up other interesting questions:
1. Who goes?

UNH, Maine, Richmond, and Villanova are all just associate members, so they wouldn't count towards the magic 8 number. UNH and Maine would have to join the CAA in full, but may not be in the position to want to make the full FBS investment. Richmond's stadium isn't big enough to support the minimum 15,000 attendance figure (which even if it isn't enforced, seems like it might come up if a school has no hope to hit it even if the stadium were sold out every game). Villanova would be put in a pickle because they only reason they can play FCS football in the CAA is because the Big East does not support FCS play. If the CAA were to go FBS Villanova would no longer be able to play football in the CAA and basketball in the Big East. Because of this, I'd assume all of these schools are out.

2. Who's on the fence?

Towson and William and Mary immediately come to mind. While both schools could support a FBS program, I wonder if either really wants to.

3. Who is likely to be all in?

Delaware, JMU, and ODU make immediate sense. JMU just completed a major stadium renovation that puts its facilities closer to the FBS than FCS level. ODU has been on a roll attendance wise and could easily make the finances work, and there have been rumors that the Monarch's have had FBS on their minds for a while. Delaware may be a less obvious choice to jump, but the attendance figures have been strong for years, and according to Coach Keeler plans for the improvements and renovations to Delaware Stadium will finally be coming out later this month. Delaware also recently instituted mandatory UDAF contributions for season ticket holders, a move that would be necessary to help fund a FBS move.

4. Who would fill in the blanks?

With three very likely members wanting to move up, and two that are maybes, there would be a need for three to five additional schools looking to jump to the FBS at a minimum. UNC-Charlotte turned down the CAA when the requirement for an all-sports membership was thrown out, but since the 49ers have made it clear they want to go FBS, and since it's apparent than VCU and Mason are now sticking around, full CAA membership might be more appealing in the event of a FBS move. UMass has already fled to the MAC for football, but if UNC-Charlotte came over from the A-10, UMass may decide to move all sports to the CAA as well to rejoin old conference foes. It gets tougher from here. App State may be a possibility as they have flirted with the idea of FBS membership, and they would have a natural in-state rival with UNC-Charlotte. As for others, Coastal Carolina has already said they would like to join the CAA, but would they be willing to commit to an FBS program? Perhaps there are schools unhappy with their position in the MAC or Sun Belt who would look to move - could WKU or Middle Tennessee be primed for poaching?


Of course, maybe I'm over thinking this whole thing, it could have been a simple poorly phrased comment, but hey, it's the off season, and it's more fun to think that Yeager's comment was a nuclear bomb than a slip of the tongue.

[Apphole]

There was a thread about this on the MMB. If it's really a possibilty, you'd better believe App State will be a part of it.

[Gringer1]

I don't think the collective conference jump is feasible in any way. I just don't see the NCAA allowing it.

[realgsu]

Only if you were drunk off Jager when you read it.

[DFW HOYA]

I think people are reaching on this, even more than some PL threads.

"We've been aware that GSU was having discussions with the Sun Belt Conference as the CAA could not accommodate that desire within GSU's timeframe"

Reads as: "Our timeframe isn't within a decade of what GSU was pushing for."

[HailSzczur]

There was a thread about this on the MMB. If it's really a possibilty, you'd better believe App State will be a part of it.

A SOCON/CAA merger would make a great deal of sense if this was to happen. Put the teams the are going up in the CAA and stick the teams staying FCS in the SOCON? I know its not that simple but it's a starting point.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I think people are reaching on this, even more than some PL threads.

"We've been aware that GSU was having discussions with the Sun Belt Conference as the CAA could not accommodate that desire within GSU's timeframe"

Reads as: "Our timeframe isn't within a decade of what GSU was pushing for."

I agree that it's not likely there will be a move next year, or probably even the year after as if it was eminent we likely would have heard something by now, and GA State would have been fine with waiting. Still, the comment leads me to believe that it's something the conference higher ups are at least talking about, and I don't see why it would have been mentioned at all if the plan was still a decade out.



A SOCON/CAA merger would make a great deal of sense if this was to happen. Put the teams the are going up in the CAA and stick the teams staying FCS in the SOCON? I know its not that simple but it's a starting point.

W&M and Richmond would fit nicely into the SoCon footprint, and be even trades for App State and GA Southern if both decided to take the leap. Towson could even be a possibility if they decided to stay FCS. UNH, Maine, and 'Nova are a bit outside of the footprint.

If the CAA did go FBS it would really put the pressure on Villanova to jump into football with the Big East. I don't see Villanova, UNH or Maine wanting to reduce scholarships to fit the NEC mold, and while the PL might entertain Villanova as a football member, a radical change in CAA membership might be the catalyst that finally sparks the America East to support a football league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A SOCON/CAA merger would make a great deal of sense if this was to happen. Put the teams the are going up in the CAA and stick the teams staying FCS in the SOCON? I know its not that simple but it's a starting point.

Interesting. Elon, Furman, and Wofford are small, private schools - that would fit perfectly in a scholarship Patriot League with a Southern wing.

North Division

Holy Cross
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate

South Division

Bucknell
Elon
Georgetown
Furman
Wofford

Just spitballin', but if App State were to flock to the CAA looking to move up to FBS... interesting.

[TheRevSFA]

The answer is - No.

You're reading way too much into it in your hopes to be FBS.

[LakesBison]

can NDSU join?

[dbackjon]

can NDSU join?

Only if you become a USD fan

[ursus arctos horribilis]

can NDSU join?

I've been waiting for that.xlolx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

i really thought it would be more like "GSU, App St., & NDSU TO THE CAA! C'MON BOYS LET'S GET THIS THING DONE!"

[HailSzczur]

W&M and Richmond would fit nicely into the SoCon footprint, and be even trades for App State and GA Southern if both decided to take the leap. Towson could even be a possibility if they decided to stay FCS. UNH, Maine, and 'Nova are a bit outside of the footprint.

If the CAA did go FBS it would really put the pressure on Villanova to jump into football with the Big East. I don't see Villanova, UNH or Maine wanting to reduce scholarships to fit the NEC mold, and while the PL might entertain Villanova as a football member, a radical change in CAA membership might be the catalyst that finally sparks the America East to support a football league.

Ugh we really need the CAA. I guess without the CAA the Patriot League football would be our only full-scholy FCS option. We could move up to BE, over to the Patriot, or down grade to the NEC

[Sly Fox]

If we the fans in the Mid-Atlantic region have been discussing this possibility ad nauseum for the past few years, you can be sure that the topic has been at least whispered among the CAA presidents & ADS.

And for the record, Liberty would be all over such an endeavor. But I agree that this is a long shot.

Of course, if the WAC were to fold then the NCAA might have a valid excuse to allow such a move "under the circumstances" despite their their current by-laws.

[jmufan]

As much as I would love for the CAA to become a FBS conference, I am really seeing that it is going to be quite hard to do so. The schools that want to become a FBS type school are better off to find a FBS conference to take them and then if they want to form a new FBS conference, then do so. Maybe the CAA could invite the FBS schools to their conference once they become FBS?

[LakesBison]

i really thought it would be more like "GSU, App St., & NDSU TO THE CAA! C'MON BOYS LET'S GET THIS THING DONE!"



AND montana!! im trying ursus.. im trying man.. it'd be weird to see the caa at fbs.

[LakesBison]

Only if you become a USD fan


Im down with U of San Diego or a fan of Universal Soft D 's.

[MplsBison]

can NDSU join?

When you publicly apologize to your parents for being a disgrace to your family and to NDSU alumni for your behavior.

[GlassOnion]

Wouldnt mind too much if App flocked to the CAA and they stayed FCS. Better TV deal anyways.

[bostonspider]

Interesting. Elon, Furman, and Wofford are small, private schools - that would fit perfectly in a scholarship Patriot League with a Southern wing.

North Division

Holy Cross
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate

South Division

Bucknell
Elon
Georgetown
Furman
Wofford

Just spitballin', but if App State were to flock to the CAA looking to move up to FBS... interesting.

Move Bucknell back up north and add W&M and UR.

North Division

Holy Cross
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Bucknell

South Division

William & Mary
Richmond
Elon
Georgetown
Furman
Wofford

W&M might be public, but they are maybe the most academically focused of the group anyways..

[PAllen]

Or:

America East:
New Hampshire
Maine
Stony Brook
Albany
Villanova
Towson


PL:
Lehigh
Lafayette
Holy Cross
Colgate
Bucknell
Georgetown
Fordham

Southern Conf:
Richmond
William & Mary
VMI
Wofford
Furman
Elon
Citadel

To FBS:
Delaware
JMU
Liberty
ASU
GSU
ODU
UNCC

[ccd494]

Let's see, getting to 6 yes votes on America East football:

-Boston U.: No football
-Vermont: No football
-Hartford: No football
-Binghamton: No football
-UMBC: No football
-Stony Brook: Wants to be in a bigger league, will probably vote no just so they aren't tied down
-New Hampshire: Can UNH's FCS ambitions be met with an AE league?
-Maine: god, please, yes, save us money
-Albany: god, please, yes, get us out of the NEC

[Seawolf97]

Well put CCD494 !

[UNH Fanboi]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just bring Albany and Stony Brook into the CAA? Why does the CAA seem to have 0 interest in making this happen? If JMU leaves for FBS and UNH and Maine leave for another FCS conference, all of a sudden the CAA's southern strategy doesn't look so smart.

[danefan]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just bring Albany and Stony Brook into the CAA? Why does the CAA seem to have 0 interest in making this happen? If JMU leaves for FBS and UNH and Maine leave for another FCS conference, all of a sudden the CAA's southern strategy doesn't look so smart.

Make it happen!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sader87]

Ugh we really need the CAA. I guess without the CAA the Patriot League football would be our only full-scholy FCS option. We could move up to BE, over to the Patriot, or down grade to the NEC

Villanova will be a Patriot League football member....it's only a matter of time.

[DFW HOYA]

Villanova will be a Patriot League football member....it's only a matter of time.

Why?

These discussions would all be a lot easier if Albany, Stony Brook, Maine, and UNH were simply added by the Patriot League without fear of its reputation or admissions procedures. (Cue the gnashing of teeth...)

[Sader87]

Why?

These discussions would all be a lot easier if Albany, Stony Brook, Maine, and UNH were simply added by the Patriot League without fear of its reputation or admissions procedures. (Cue the gnashing of teeth...)

Because Villanova fits the "PL Football" profile moreso than the CAA one...private university, fair to weak overall support locally/institutionally etc....VU is a much better long term fit in the PL than the CAA...only a matter of time.

[HailSzczur]

Because Villanova fits the "PL Football" profile moreso than the CAA one...private university, fair to weak overall support locally/institutionally etc....VU is a much better long term fit in the PL than the CAA...only a matter of time.

True, but given the success we have had as of late, and the CAA's position as a perennial contender in the argument for strongest conference in FCS I don't think were going anywhere anytime soon. Only in the doomsday scenarios of either the CAA moving up or enough CAA teams moving up on their own to cripple the conference will Nova be going to any other FCS conference.

I will agree though, Patriot League is a very obvious and logical choice

[Sader87]

Villanova is a natural fit for the Patriot League...institutionally (Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross)...geographically, size-wise (FCS)...ultimately it really is the only league that makes sense for them if they remain in FCS football...I'd expect the Wildcats in PL league play by 2014 or 2015.

[HailSzczur]

Villanova is a natural fit for the Patriot League...institutionally (Georgetown, Fordham, Holy Cross)...geographically, size-wise (FCS)...ultimately it really is the only league that makes sense for them if they remain in FCS football...I'd expect the Wildcats in PL league play by 2014 or 2015.

Without a doubt. But unless some shift of powers occurs amongst the conferences, or something happens to the CAA I don't see us going anywhere else. We ridden through all the different affiliations and names (Yankee/A10), what makes you think that in the next 2 years we decide to jump ship? Money is the only thing that will move our team and with GA St leaving the conference the footprint of the conference remains almost entirely the same as it has during the history of the conference, so it won't be travel costs

[whitey]

Wouldn't it be much easier to just bring Albany and Stony Brook into the CAA? Why does the CAA seem to have 0 interest in making this happen? If JMU leaves for FBS and UNH and Maine leave for another FCS conference, all of a sudden the CAA's southern strategy doesn't look so smart.

After the cancellation of Tuesday's vote I've totally switched course and now believe the CAA is in deep doo-doo. It's just as possible now that the league might not even exist as it's possible they'll go ahead and add a few new members.

[danefan]

After the cancellation of Tuesday's vote I've totally switched course and now believe the CAA is in deep doo-doo. It's just as possible now that the league might not even exist as it's possible they'll go ahead and add a few new members.

Why does the vote postponement make you question the existence of the league?

[RichH2]

Move Bucknell back up north and add W&M and UR.

North Division

Holy Cross
Fordham
Lehigh
Lafayette
Colgate
Bucknell

South Division

William & Mary
Richmond
Elon
Georgetown
Furman
Wofford

W&M might be public, but they are maybe the most academically focused of the group anyways..

Eminently sensible therefore highly unlikely scenario.

[bluehenbillk]

After the cancellation of Tuesday's vote I've totally switched course and now believe the CAA is in deep doo-doo. It's just as possible now that the league might not even exist as it's possible they'll go ahead and add a few new members.

I don't disagree with you as it seems like the majority of the schools have questions about their future standing or beefs about being outliers.

UNCW is "on a island", geographically isolated.
ODU & JMU - potential FBS aspirations
VCU & GMU - A-10 bound??
W&M, TU, UD - not going anywhere if they don't have to
N'Eastern - would probably love to have a New Englandish travel partner
Hofstra - really thinks they made a mistake going into the CAA - MAAC bound?
Drexel - sponsors basically the min # if sports to obtain D1 status - they'll stay until league crumbles around them

[whitey]

Why does the vote postponement make you question the existence of the league?

Basically what bhb just said. JMU was one of the schools that has not decided how they are going to vote on the exit fee increase. So one can assume they were one of the schools that declined an invitation to vote on Tuesday preventing quorum from being reached. One can infer from that that JMU has to be exploring options. It's highly likely VCU and GMU also did not appear which means they are also exploring their options (with the A-10).

ODU who is rumored to be behind the exit fee increase is not going to risk being left behind if their Virginia partners defect. It's pretty easy to argue that ODU is actually in a more favorable position to move up to FBS than JMU as they are in a much larger media market and actually has a good basketball program.

So, after those 4 schools the CAA is left with 7 schools. I'd say it's just as likely those 7 disband and join other conferences as those 7 coming together and inviting new members simply due to the amount of mileage between many of these schools. I would not have thought this on Monday, prior to the vote. But I certainly do now that is was cancelled. The CAA is clearly not as united as I originally thought.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Basically what bhb just said. JMU was one of the schools that has not decided how they are going to vote on the exit fee increase. So one can assume they were one of the schools that declined an invitation to vote on Tuesday preventing quorum from being reached. One can infer from that that JMU has to be exploring options. It's highly likely VCU and GMU also did not appear which means they are also exploring their options (with the A-10).

ODU who is rumored to be behind the exit fee increase is not going to risk being left behind if their Virginia partners defect. It's pretty easy to argue that ODU is actually in a more favorable position to move up to FBS than JMU as they are in a much larger media market and actually has a good basketball program.

So, after those 4 schools the CAA is left with 7 schools. I'd say it's just as likely those 7 disband and join other conferences as those 7 coming together and inviting new members simply due to the amount of mileage between many of these schools. I would not have thought this on Monday, prior to the vote. But I certainly do now that is was cancelled. The CAA is clearly not as united as I originally thought.

If your calculations are correct, then it seems like the linchpin to the league is UNCW, and how much they like to have league games against Drexel, Delaware, Hofstra and Northeastern.

But I'm still not so sure this doomsday scenario is what's happening. Couldn't it just as easily been delayed since some presidents were in Cancun or Doha or something? The only sure thing about this whole scenario is that the vote was put together pretty hastily, but that could just have easily been because of GaSt's naked overtures with the Sun Belch.

[whitey]

I'm not saying the doomsday scenario is likely what will happen but what I am saying is I think it's much closer to a 50/50 chance now when previously I thought it would be more like a 10% chance. And yes, of course it was a hastily arranged vote.

But this is what we do know as facts:
- The exit fee hike proposal was circulating to all university president's a full two weeks prior to the scheduled vote. This is a requirement of CAA by-laws.
- The exit fee vote was postponed but NOT rescheduled. This leads me to believe it's more than just a few President's being on vacation.
- James Madison's President and AD had NOT decided how they would vote yet and were one of the schools who prevented quorum.

[DFW HOYA]

The exit fee for the Southeastern Conference? $0.

Last one to take the exit? Tulane, 1966. (Not a good move in retrospect.)

[dgtw]

Could the scheduled vote just have been a way to tell Georgia State to pee or get off the pot in regards to their FBS ambitions?

[danefan]

Could the scheduled vote just have been a way to tell Georgia State to pee or get off the pot in regards to their FBS ambitions?

Never thought of that, but it sure makes a lot of sense......

[Go...gate]

True, but given the success we have had as of late, and the CAA's position as a perennial contender in the argument for strongest conference in FCS I don't think were going anywhere anytime soon. Only in the doomsday scenarios of either the CAA moving up or enough CAA teams moving up on their own to cripple the conference will Nova be going to any other FCS conference.

I will agree though, Patriot League is a very obvious and logical choice

As much as I have said and believe that Villanova FB in the PL will never happen, this is that incredibly unlikely 1,000,000,000 to 1 "Perfect Storm" which could make it happen. Hard to fathom that things are shaking up this much. This would be very tough for Andy Talley to swallow.

[RichH2]

Talley would have to be put on suicide watch,if Nova even hinted at PL. A shame tho,it would be an ideal fit for both.

[JMUDuke2002]

Could the scheduled vote just have been a way to tell Georgia State to pee or get off the pot in regards to their FBS ambitions?

No. It is known that the vote was supposed to take place but some university presidents were not present. It is known that JMU's president was not on the line, and has stated he is not sure how JMU would vote on the matter.

This is a PR disaster for Yeager considering he thought it would pass with no problem.

[MplsBison]

True, but given the success we have had as of late, and the CAA's position as a perennial contender in the argument for strongest conference in FCS I don't think were going anywhere anytime soon. Only in the doomsday scenarios of either the CAA moving up or enough CAA teams moving up on their own to cripple the conference will Nova be going to any other FCS conference.

I will agree though, Patriot League is a very obvious and logical choice

Except for the part about the AI. That would make Nova less competitive.

If it weren't for that, ie if the Patriot League was just an athletics conference of like institutions and not an organization imposing ideology, then yes I would agree.

[HailSzczur]

Except for the part about the AI. That would make Nova less competitive.

If it weren't for that, ie if the Patriot League was just an athletics conference of like institutions and not an organization imposing ideology, then yes I would agree.

The AI wouldn't be a huge deal for us. That was actually one argument against us going up in football, is the type of student athletes we would be going after to compete with and fill a full FBS roster.

[MplsBison]

The AI wouldn't be a huge deal for us. That was actually one argument against us going up in football, is the type of student athletes we would be going after to compete with and fill a full FBS roster.

There aren't any starters on the football or men's basketball teams that wouldn't have gotten into school without their athletic scholarship offer? Come on...

[Go...gate]

Talley would have to be put on suicide watch,if Nova even hinted at PL. A shame tho,it would be an ideal fit for both.

Guarantee that Villanova's location, would be attractive to fans of the other schools.

And....who knows? Maybe Georgetown will throw a few dollars at its program and we'd have a fine football conference.

[HailSzczur]

There aren't any starters on the football or men's basketball teams that wouldn't have gotten into school without their athletic scholarship offer? Come on...

Oh there are, but I'm saying it wouldn't be as hard to get up to the AI standards as it would be for other CAA schools.

[HailSzczur]

Guarantee that Villanova's location, would be attractive to fans of the other schools.

And....who knows? Maybe Georgetown will throw a few dollars at its program and we'd have a fine football conference.

We all get it, Nova makes perfect sense in the PL, i just don't see it happening. A lot of dominoes have to fall first

[DFW HOYA]

And....who knows? Maybe Georgetown will throw a few dollars at its program and we'd have a fine football conference.

$6.6 million each year (to go from 0 to 60 scholarships + Title IX proportionality) is not a few dollars, even for DC standards.

(Well, not for most of DC....)

[MplsBison]

Oh there are, but I'm saying it wouldn't be as hard to get up to the AI standards as it would be for other CAA schools.

That may be true, but I believe it would make you a great deal less competitive in football. You're vastly underestimating the anti-competitive policy that is the Patriot League AI.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That may be true, but I believe it would make you a great deal less competitive in football. You're vastly underestimating the anti-competitive policy that is the Patriot League AI.

Oh yes. That AI that made Lehigh uncompetitive against the MVFC champs UNI in 2010 and the CAA champs Towson in 2011. We didn't stand a chance in those games. xlolx

[HailSzczur]

Oh yes. That AI that made Lehigh uncompetitive against the MVFC champs UNI in 2010 and the CAA champs Towson in 2011. We didn't stand a chance in those games. xlolx

Boy did he ever set himself up right there. Practically stepped on a land mind.

The AI would most likely lower our talent pool some, but theres nothing that says that an AI team can't field a good group of players. Mplsbison you make it sound like the AI is some sort of crippling disease or something.

[Dane96]

$6.6 million each year (to go from 0 to 60 scholarships + Title IX proportionality) is not a few dollars, even for DC standards.

(Well, not for most of DC....)

Little confused by this, and not here to argue with you DFW Hoya...since I know you are frustrated. In fact, this post is more about reporting of scholarships than anything else.

Based on estimated cost figures for a full-ride, athletic football scholarships at the following should be, with title IX match included:

Villanova- 54k; 6,804,000
Colgate- 55K; $6,930,000
Lehigh- 56 K; $7,056,000
Georgetown- 59K; $7,434,000

But the numbers don't add up to total reporting figures:

Villanova- Villanova, w/ football reports $4,852,165 in total men's scholarships; and 845k in game-day operating expenses for football; but $5,360,000 in total expenses on football. This would suggest no other men get scholarships for any other sports. We know this isn't true.

Colgate- Colgate, w/ football reports $5,378,750 in total men's scholarships; and 422k in game-day operating expenses for football; and$4,530,358 in total expenses on football. This makes more sense, as it leaves a large number of other sports receiving scholarships...but since it is a PL school prior to the new scholarship rule I am not sure how they are counting "scholarships". I do believe they have to count any aid to football players, academic merit or finanical under the "scholarship" category. No way they are going to be spending $10million in total scholarships with the new scholarship allotment rule in the PL.

Lehigh- Lehigh, w/ football reports $5,178,345 in total men's scholarships; and 514k in game-day operating expenses for football; and$4,323,035 in total expenses on football. The same comments as Colgate are applied here.

Georgetown- Georgetown, w/ almost no known aid to fooball players, reports $3,353,530 in total men's scholarships; and 347k in game-day operating expenses for football; and $1,678,984 in total expenses on football. Huge disparity in the total expenses lends me to believe that the difference is the aid front.

That said, Georgetown is more akin to Villanova for all sports except football in regards to what funding should / is for a Big East school. However, and of greater import, is that NONE of these schools is remotely close to reporting what the total cost of a full ride would be coupled with Title IX matching. I picked Lehigh and Colgate because it is known that both schools are close to 55 aid packages for their football players. I picked Nova because of the Big East tie. Even adding in the difference in tuition b/w Georgetown and the other schools (High-Low of approx. 5k= 630k differential) I believe we can absolutely say this:

No way is any school calculating its scholarship pool as a dollar-to-dollar figure. The reported scholarship expenditures would have to be extremely increased for this to work out.

My point: I dont believe full-scholarship football at Georgetown will actually be $6.6 million, with Title IX matching. However, it still doesn't take away the other long-notable issues about support for that fine program.

[HailSzczur]

Little confused by this, and not here to argue with you DFW Hoya...since I know you are frustrated. In fact, this post is more about reporting of scholarships than anything else.

Based on estimated cost figures for a full-ride, athletic football scholarships at the following should be, with title IX match included:

Villanova- 54k; 6,804,000

Villanova- Villanova, w/ football reports $4,852,165 in total men's scholarships; and 845k in game-day operating expenses for football; but $5,360,000 in total expenses on football. This would suggest no other men get scholarships for any other sports. We know this is not true.

I'm not sure I follow your math. At 6.8 mil we be funding 126 football scholarship. That sounds more like how many athletic scholarships we have for males at the school.

[Dane96]

Should have spelled it out better; that 126 is the matching female Title IX requirements (63-63). The comparison would be the cost to go full scholly from no schollies at Georgetown. The cost at each of those schools that i provided in the first breakdown is Men-Women matching rides.

Did it quickly...sorry (and I am on a ton of steroids for my back so I am tired/grouchy/and silly right now. :)

I retract the post.

[Dane96]

NM

[Go...gate]

That may be true, but I believe it would make you a great deal less competitive in football. You're vastly underestimating the anti-competitive policy that is the Patriot League AI.

You mean the policy that got Colgate to the Title game in 2003 and LU to the Quarterfinals in 1998 and 2001?

[MplsBison]

You mean the policy that got Colgate to the Title game in 2003 and LU to the Quarterfinals in 1998 and 2001?

The AI didn't help any PL football team accomplish anything. The accomplishments were in spite of the AI. All the more kudos to those teams' coaching staffs and players for succeeding in spite of it.

The AI was designed to be a hindrance. That was the point.

[CFBfan]

The AI didn't help any PL football team accomplish anything. The accomplishments were in spite of the AI, all the more kudos to those teams' coaching staffs and players.

The AI was designed to be a hindrance. That was the point.

Yes of course, that makes sense....all the Pres' of the PL teams sat down with a common goal.....what can we do to hinder our football teams from being succesful

[MplsBison]

Oh yes. That AI that made Lehigh uncompetitive against the MVFC champs UNI in 2010 and the CAA champs Towson in 2011. We didn't stand a chance in those games. xlolx

The discussion was in regards to the reduction in competitiveness of Nova's football program.

Sorry to hear about your reading comprehension problems.

[MplsBison]

Yes of course, that makes sense....all the Pres' of the PL teams sat down with a common goal.....what can we do to hinder our football teams from being succesful

Well....yeah.

You joke about it like it's supposed to be an obvious falsehood...but is it really? The PL presidents only care about being competitive within the PL, where they can assure themselves that the playing field is level and only smart kids can be recruited. Everyone else is bunch of rapists and thieves.

[HailSzczur]

Well....yeah.

You joke about it like it's supposed to be an obvious falsehood...but is it really? The PL presidents only care about being competitive within the PL, where they can assure themselves that the playing field is level and only smart kids can be recruited. Everyone else is bunch of rapists and thieves.

Not everyone, thats just Montana

[Engineer86]

Not everyone, thats just Montana

You beat me to it xbowx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

There aren't any starters on the football or men's basketball teams that wouldn't have gotten into school without their athletic scholarship offer? Come on...


Oh there are, but I'm saying it wouldn't be as hard to get up to the AI standards as it would be for other CAA schools.


That may be true, but I believe it would make you a great deal less competitive in football. You're vastly underestimating the anti-competitive policy that is the Patriot League AI.


Oh yes. That AI that made Lehigh uncompetitive against the MVFC champs UNI in 2010 and the CAA champs Towson in 2011. We didn't stand a chance in those games. xlolx


The discussion was in regards to the reduction in competitiveness of Nova's football program.

Sorry to hear about your reading comprehension problems.

Sadly for me, I read your posts very clearly. The real question is, Why?

Maybe I'm just curious to find out how the Patriot League's "anti-competitive" policy will destroy Villanova's football program. Because they won't ever make the championship again? Oops, Colgate did that with the AI. That they won't ever be able to beat the MVFC or CAA champs? Oops, Lehigh did that in consecutive years. And that was without the benefit of scholarships, too.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe I'm just curious to find out how the Patriot League's "anti-competitive" policy will destroy Villanova's football program. Because they won't ever make the championship again? Oops, Colgate did that with the AI. That they won't ever be able to beat the MVFC or CAA champs? Oops, Lehigh did that in consecutive years. And that was without the benefit of scholarships, too.

There are two objections to an academic index: philosophical and competitive. Villanova is an example of the latter.

Villanova has been able to recruit, compete, and win at the highest levels of the subdivision without the need for an AI. What does it gain them to restrict itself to 15% of the available Division I recruit basis--what, to keep Ivy League schools happy? The Wildcats reguarly score near the top in APR ratings for football players, witn a five year range of 970-982 on the 1000 point scale, the same range as currently enjoyed by PL football schools. Adding an AI won't increase these scores statistically, so what is to be gained academically?

Philosophically, what an AI tells a recruit and his parents is simple, and ultimately damaging: "We, the school, are not able to recruit you because someone in a conference office decides if we can, not our admissions office. If you have a 2.9 and an 1180 on your SAT and wanted to be an accounting major, an econ major, a general studies major, whatever, the ultimate decision would be up to us to decide if you can be a candidate for admission. For all we know, you could be a future Senator or Internet millionaire. But because you play a sport, in this case football, you are not recruitable because there are "too many" of you in the admisions pool--and even if you got admitted on your own, you can't play the sport here because you could upset the "index", a list developed by another conference, not ours. So fare thee well at Richmond or W&M or Delaware, just not here."

[Go...gate]

There are two objections to an academic index: philosophical and compettive. Villanova is an example of the latter.

Villanova has been able to recruit, compete, and win at the highest levels of the subdivision without the need for an AI. What does it gain them to restrict itself to 15% of the available Division I recruit basis--what, to keep Ivy League schools happy? The Wildcats reguarly score near the top in APR ratings for football players, witn a five year range of 970-982 on the 1000 point scale, the same range as currently enjoyed by PL football schools. Adding an AI won't increase these scores statistically, so what is to be gained academically?

What an AI tells recruits is simple, and ultimately damaging: "we, the school, are not able to recruit you because someone in a conference office decides if we can, not our admissions office. If you have a 2.9 and an 1180 on your SAT and wanted to be an accounting major, an econ major, a general studies major, whatever, the ultimate decision would be up to our school to decide if you can be a candidate for admission. For all we know, you could be a future Senator or Internet millionaire.

But because you play a sport, in this case football, you are not recruitable--and even if you got admitted, you can't play the sport here because you would upset the "numbers", numbers created by another conference, not ours. So fare thee well at Richmond or W&M or Delaware, just not here."

It is a very valid point. Villanova does what Colgate also did for years, and no one questions Villanova's academics (just as no one questioned Colgate's). And I'm fairly confident that your profs keep VU's academic integrity even without an AI by holding ballplayers to a high standard. Ours did, as well.

[DFW HOYA]

There was a time in the 1960's and 1970's when Colgate's national standing was very strong, in part because of being a visible and competitive football program, and no one accused Colgate of being a slouch academically. Some of that standing was lost when it joined the PL because the PL has never been able to build that visibility.

This is, in part, why Villanova wants to consider the Big East. Does major college football elevate Villanova nationally to be the next generation's Boston College, or instead follow the path taken by schools like Holy Cross?

[Go...gate]

There was a time in the 1960's and 1970's when Colgate's national standing was very strong, in part because of being a visible and competitive football program, and no one accused Colgate of being a slouch academically. Some of that standing was lost when it joined the PL because the PL has never been able to build that visibility.

This is, in part, why Villanova wants to consider the Big East. Does major college football elevate Villanova nationally to be the next generation's Boston College, or instead follow the path taken by schools like Holy Cross?

Not sure we have ever lost that national standing, despite what U.S. News or DFW Hoya say.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

There are two objections to an academic index: philosophical and competitive. Villanova is an example of the latter.

Philosophically, what an AI tells a recruit and his parents is simple, and ultimately damaging: "We, the school, are not able to recruit you because someone in a conference office decides if we can, not our admissions office. If you have a 2.9 and an 1180 on your SAT and wanted to be an accounting major, an econ major, a general studies major, whatever, the ultimate decision would be up to us to decide if you can be a candidate for admission. For all we know, you could be a future Senator or Internet millionaire. But because you play a sport, in this case football, you are not recruitable because there are "too many" of you in the admisions pool--and even if you got admitted on your own, you can't play the sport here because you could upset the "index", a list developed by another conference, not ours. So fare
thee well at Richmond or W&M or Delaware, just not here."

DFW-- I generally respect your analyses, but this set of suppositions about the mechanics of the AI, particularly the role of the League office in managing policy, is way more sinister than I think those administrators can perform, and more intrusive in admissions policy than I can imagine these institutions (which include the academies in other sports) might allow. The Patriot League is not a life raft, with institutional autonomy chucked because these poor institutions would be bereft of options without the PL affiliation.

Further, Bucknell would have said it had no football scholarships just a few months ago, just like Georgetown did. But both schools gives lots of need-based assistance and other merit aid to students who play intercollegiate football. This left President Bravman saying BU would only be increasing its scholly count by five to hit the limit... Are you saying that none of that aid is currently calculated anywhere at Georgetown, even for the purposes of Title IX? Does GU not count equivalencies for any purpose? This seems a bit disingenuous, unless it would represent a change in the accounting in the Hoya athletic department, leaving them wide-open to some Title IX recalculation. I am no insider on these matters, and you blog elsewhere on Hoya fball. I would appreciate a little enlightenment.

[danefan]

DFW-- I generally respect your analyses, but this set of suppositions about the mechanics of the AI, particularly the role of the League office in managing policy, is way more sinister than I think those administrators can perform, and more intrusive in admissions policy than I can imagine these institutions (which include the academies in other sports) might allow. The Patriot League is not a life raft, with institutional autonomy chucked because these poor institutions would be bereft of options without the PL affiliation.

Further, Bucknell would have said it had no football scholarships just a few months ago, just like Georgetown did. But both schools gives lots of need-based assistance and other merit aid to students who play intercollegiate football. This left President Bravman saying BU would only be increasing its scholly count by five to hit the limit... Are you saying that none of that aid is currently calculated anywhere at Georgetown, even for the purposes of Title IX? Does GU not count equivalencies for any purpose? This seems a bit disingenuous, unless it would represent a change in the accounting in the Hoya athletic department, leaving them wide-open to some Title IX recalculation. I am no insider on these matters, and you blog elsewhere on Hoya fball. I would appreciate a little enlightenment.

These are the PL accounting games. Some schools counted grants for Title IX and some did not. There was an article on this topic last year at some point. I'll see if I can track it down.

Here's some reference to this in a Colgate article
http://www.maroon-news.com/patriot-league-moves-to-allow-football-scholarships-1.2793669#.T4lUHhB5mK0


Many schools in the league will have to restructure their sports programs to stay in compliance with Title IX.

Most schools do not figure need-based aid into their equivalencies and are not required to. It's an in*stitutional decision. Scholarships, however, must be accounted for so that other schools in the league will need to expand their athletic bud*gets, especially on the women's side, in order to follow Title IX.

"For us, [the decision] doesn't actually change things at all," Col*gate Associate Director of Athletics Ann-Marie Guglieri said. "When we gave need-based aid for scholar*ships, we still counted that in our equivalencies so we were within the Title IX regulations before football went off scholarships and we'll have to make no adjustments now that we are on scholarships."