GSU, App State, and the Sun Belt

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

In light of the apparent move by G. State, does anyone still deny that if GSU or App. State wanted to be in the Sun Belt, at least one of them would be in the discussion? Does anyone still believe that somehow both of these schools are desperately trying to find a route to the FBS and that somehow the SBC doesn't want them because somehow there's a stigma to taking an FCS school? Maybe, just maybe, it's GSU and App that don't want any part of this conference instead of the other way around, contrary to what he always hear from fans of Troy, MTSU, and other schools like that?

Just asking.

[fc97]

its possible but could also be that appalachian state and georgia southern don't have as much to offer as a georgia state

georgia state has a coveted media market that appalachian state and georgia southern do not have

and you have to wonder if troy would be a viable candidate in the current landscape as the whole landscape has changed. it isnt about how good you are, how good your on field performance is or how good the school is. it is about money. the large media markets are money

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

its possible but could also be that appalachian state and georgia southern don't have as much to offer as a georgia state

georgia state has a coveted media market that appalachian state and georgia southern do not have

and you have to wonder if troy would be a viable candidate in the current landscape as the whole landscape has changed. it isnt about how good you are, how good your on field performance is or how good the school is. it is about money. the large media markets are money

What is a media market when the whole state is bulldog crazy? Heck, Tech is in Atlanta and in the ACC and they have trouble getting out from under UGA.

[FormerPokeCenter]

it isnt about how good you are, how good your on field performance is or how good the school is. it is about money. the large media markets are money

Really? So that explains the incredible number of college football powerhouses in, say, New York City, Chicago or Boston....And, the 100,000 fans who regularly jam into stadiums in Norman, Lincoln, Columbus, South Bend, Tuscaloosa and Austin, to say nothing of Baton Rouge, are clearly only there because those cities are incredibly large media markets, right. Just like Clemson, South Carolina and Auburn, Alabama, right?

Sure a large market helps, but if you don't have the product that puts people in the stands, the size of your market just reminds you of how many tickets you DON"T sell...

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it IS about how good you are and how many games you win....people don't pay to see losers...unless they're long-time Cubs or Redsox fans...

[GA St. MBB Fan]

In light of the apparent move by G. State, does anyone still deny that if GSU or App. State wanted to be in the Sun Belt, at least one of them would be in the discussion? Does anyone still believe that somehow both of these schools are desperately trying to find a route to the FBS and that somehow the SBC doesn't want them because somehow there's a stigma to taking an FCS school? Maybe, just maybe, it's GSU and App that don't want any part of this conference instead of the other way around, contrary to what he always hear from fans of Troy, MTSU, and other schools like that?

Just asking.

Market.

[asumike83]

Honestly, it may be a lack of interest on both ends. Based on the little I've heard from our administration and comments from the Sun Belt camp, I don't get the feeling we are making much of a push. Our concern is travel costs and whether there is sufficient revenue to offset them in the Sun Belt. From their perspective, they seem much more interested in schools that offer the big market.

We seem fairly content to take a wait and see approach. Only time will tell if a more aggressive approach would have been better. If a regional FBS conference becomes an option in the relatively near future then our leaders will look like geniuses. I'm not holding my breath on that though.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Really? So that explains the incredible number of college football powerhouses in, say, New York City, Chicago or Boston....And, the 100,000 fans who regularly jam into stadiums in Norman, Lincoln, Columbus, South Bend, Tuscaloosa and Austin, to say nothing of Baton Rouge, are clearly only there because those cities are incredibly large media markets, right. Just like Clemson, South Carolina and Auburn, Alabama, right?

Those programs were established before ESPN changed the industry.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Okay...and since ESPN "changed the industry" has the rest of the world caught up, or even made a dent in the financial disparity between the haves in Austin, Norman, Lincoln, SouthBend, Baton Rouge, Columbia, Auburn or Clemson and, say, the have nots in Atlanta, NYC, Chicago, et al?

I think we both know the answer is no.

It's great to be optimistic, but sooner or later you've got to have results.....Media, regardless of market, needs results and fans in the seats to sell advertising....

Unless we're talking National TV exposure here, Media Market size is a misnomer. Print Media? Please...it's withering and dying on the vine. Radio Media? Please, they're looking for cheap content and packaged talent....If your football team sucks, nobody's gonna tune in and listen, so with no audience, no advertisers...No advertisers, no money. You might as well be in Statesboro or Booone if you don't have advertisers....

It's all about the on-field product, not your POTENTIAL market size, because your on-field product determines the size of your market...

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Poke Center scores a decisive first round knockout in under two posts of the first round.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Look at the SBC footprint, versus the Southern Conference. Uprooting your athletic program from the Southern Conference, a geographically-compact, storied league with well-established rivalries bringing in full-houses and national championships in football, played often in college town environments, with a conference that has recently included teams from Idaho, Utah and New Mexico?

I would think that is something to consider, even with the move to FBS and the chance to spend on 22 more scholarships plus their Title IX offsets. Both App and GSU have men soccer and App has wrestling that would have to find new homes. The Sun Belt has, like all Div. I conferences, the 'single event' type championships, which allow schools to schedule mostly on weekends and with more local opponents, like swimming, cross country, tennis, track, and golf.

GaState is leaving the CAA, and trips to Northeastern, Hofstra and Drexel behind for all sports. With Denver's departure to the WAC, the SBC is a tighter fit across the board. I suppose you cannot underplay the role of the Atlanta market in the SBC's decision, but was it really a choice among the three? I doubt it. I can imagine that departing the hallowed environs of the SoCon is much different than the southernmost outpost of the CAA for a regional institution. I also doubt that the CAA will be dragged back to the negotiating table over GaState for their recently announced TV package. Look where Northeastern, Drexel, and Hofstra play. Maybe even with the loss VCU and Mason, the CAA might avoid renegotiating.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Okay...and since ESPN "changed the industry" has the rest of the world caught up, or even made a dent in the financial disparity between the haves in Austin, Norman, Lincoln, SouthBend, Baton Rouge, Columbia, Auburn or Clemson and, say, the have nots in Atlanta, NYC, Chicago, et al?

I think we both know the answer is no.

It's great to be optimistic, but sooner or later you've got to have results.....Media, regardless of market, needs results and fans in the seats to sell advertising....

Unless we're talking National TV exposure here, Media Market size is a misnomer. Print Media? Please...it's withering and dying on the vine. Radio Media? Please, they're looking for cheap content and packaged talent....If your football team sucks, nobody's gonna tune in and listen, so with no audience, no advertisers...No advertisers, no money. You might as well be in Statesboro or Booone if you don't have advertisers....

It's all about the on-field product, not your POTENTIAL market size, because your on-field product determines the size of your market...

Are you saying this with regard to long term success or with regard to the likeliness a school will be invited to "move up" from their current conference/status?

[asumike83]

Are you saying this with regard to long term success or with regard to the likeliness a school will be invited to "move up" from their current conference/status?

Long term success, I believe. Market is clearly very important to FBS conferences in the current environment. On-field success will have to come for the program to flourish but you'll get your shot. I wish y'all luck.

[GA St. MBB Fan]

Long term success, I believe. Market is clearly very important to FBS conferences in the current environment. On-field success will have to come for the program to flourish but you'll get your shot. I wish y'all luck.

Assuming, that is what FPC meant, I agree.

[dbackjon]

Are you saying this with regard to long term success or with regard to the likeliness a school will be invited to "move up" from their current conference/status?

Other than baseball, the Sunbelt is a MOVE DOWN from the CAA

[MplsBison]

Other than baseball, the Sunbelt is a MOVE DOWN from the CAA

It's a move up in football.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It's a move up in football.

Haven't seen any rankings where it could be seen as anything more than EXTREMELY negligible at best.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Forget football one second. Where this move makes zero sense for Georgia State is men's basketball.

Aside from the obvious (giving up their share of NCAA money from two Final Four runs, one 15/16 seed in the tournament instead of the possibility of an at-large on top of an autobid, sitting as 8/12 seeds in the tournament), there's the less obvious: that the Sun Belt's basketball coverage lags far, far behind that of the CAA.

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4100&ATCLID=204821610

http://www.caasports.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=3455&SPSID=45197

This is why App State is not following Georgia State into the abyss.

[MplsBison]

Haven't seen any rankings where it could be seen as anything more than EXTREMELY negligible at best.

Can't compare FCS to FBS teams. Apples and oranges.

The two aren't marketed or perceived the same.

[MplsBison]

Forget football one second. Where this move makes zero sense for Georgia State is men's basketball.

Aside from the obvious (giving up their share of NCAA money from two Final Four runs, one 15/16 seed in the tournament instead of the possibility of an at-large on top of an autobid, sitting as 8/12 seeds in the tournament), there's the less obvious: that the Sun Belt's basketball coverage lags far, far behind that of the CAA.

http://www.sunbeltsports.org/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4100&ATCLID=204821610

http://www.caasports.com/SportSelect.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=8500&SPID=3455&SPSID=45197

This is why App State is not following Georgia State into the abyss.

Isn't it then obvious that the move would be for football?

GA St is a football school now.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Can't compare FCS to FBS teams. Apples and oranges.

The two aren't marketed or perceived the same.

What does how it's maketed and perceived have to do with the fact that it is not a step up in competition?

Even with your stance the perception does not appear too much different to me. Sun Belt football is fairly wide seen as **** football around the country and especially by the big boys that these teams want to rub elbows with.

[ThompsonThe]

Isn't it then obvious that the move would be for football?

GA St is a football school now.

I guess technically you could say that.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Isn't it then obvious that the move would be for football?

GA St is a football school now.

Isn't Ga St Basketball a lot higher profile than Ga St football?

[Apphole]

Isn't Ga St Basketball a lot higher profile than Ga St football?

I've never heard of either one

[TheRevSFA]

Can't compare FCS to FBS teams. Apples and oranges.

The two aren't marketed or perceived the same.

..


And I look forward to comparing the following things in 5-10 years: head-to-head recruiting battles and total coaching salary.

GA St vs Ga Southern
UTSA vs SFA
UNCC vs Western Carolina


I'll go ahead and put my money down on the FBS schools and by a wide margin. That's what happens when you decide to make that commitment.

It will be comparable to La Tech vs Nichols St now.


That's fine. I'd actually be interested to know the salaries of all the paid football coaches at all the public schools in the Sun Belt, SoCon and Southland.

[FormerPokeCenter]

GA St is a football school now.

This is going to come as a complete shock to the Lambuth Eagles...

[MplsBison]

What does how it's maketed and perceived have to do with the fact that it is not a step up in competition?

Even with your stance the perception does not appear too much different to me. Sun Belt football is fairly wide seen as **** football around the country and especially by the big boys that these teams want to rub elbows with.

No it's not, you're wrong. It's perceived badly by some fans of FCS schools, probably due to jealousy.

Obviously the competition level of the Sun Belt teams is higher than FCS schools. They pay more money for coaches (and have more paid coaches), they can offer more full scholarships to recruits, have better facilities, better contacts with the NFL, etc. etc. etc.

[MplsBison]

..

I was consistent in my posts. Thanks.

[MplsBison]

Isn't Ga St Basketball a lot higher profile than Ga St football?

Obviously not. If it was, why would the school be moving to the Sun Belt?

[dgtw]

I agree the whole bit about media markets is overblown. A minor program surrounded by pro sports isn't going to catch a lot of attention, especially if there are major college teams the fans already watch.

A few years ago, I used to post on another sports board. A Rutgers fan on there thought I was an idiot for saying Nebraska would be a better choice for the Big Ten than his team. I guess he thought if Rutgers was in a major conference, people in NYC would suddenly stop watching the Yankees, Mets, Giants and Jets in the fall.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

No it's not, you're wrong. It's perceived badly by some fans of FCS schools, probably due to jealousy.

Obviously the competition level of the Sun Belt teams is higher than FCS schools. They pay more money for coaches (and have more paid coaches), they can offer more full scholarships to recruits, have better facilities, better contacts with the NFL, etc. etc. etc.xlolx

It's the incremental "more & better" that always makes me chuckle.

With all the extra's they enjoy they don't produce any better in comparison.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Obviously not. If it was, why would the school be moving to the Sun Belt?

exactly.

[TheRevSFA]

I was consistent in my posts. Thanks.

No, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said you can't compare, but then want to see a comparison. Make up your mind.

[MplsBison]

I agree the whole bit about media markets is overblown. A minor program surrounded by pro sports isn't going to catch a lot of attention, especially if there are major college teams the fans already watch.

A few years ago, I used to post on another sports board. A Rutgers fan on there thought I was an idiot for saying Nebraska would be a better choice for the Big Ten than his team. I guess he thought if Rutgers was in a major conference, people in NYC would suddenly stop watching the Yankees, Mets, Giants and Jets in the fall.

It's all about grasping the attention of casual fans of the sport. There are a lot of casual college football fans in Atlanta who did not graduate from UGA or GT.

I think you would have to admit that GA State's location makes it fairly convenient for them to jump on the bandwagon during a winning year.

[MplsBison]

No, you're talking out of both sides of your mouth. You said you can't compare, but then want to see a comparison. Make up your mind.

You can't compare them.

As was the point being made in all the posts. A comparison of the numbers would bare that out (I hope).

[TheRevSFA]

Obviously not. If it was, why would the school be moving to the Sun Belt?

Higher priority by the school..but not higher profile in terms of "who gives a flying ****"

[MplsBison]

exactly.

I'm glad we both agree that GA State is a football school now.

[MplsBison]

xlolx

It's the incremental "more & better" that always makes me chuckle.

With all the extra's they enjoy they don't produce any better in comparison.

Of course they do.

[TheRevSFA]

It's all about grasping the attention of casual fans of the sport. There are a lot of casual college football fans in Atlanta who did not graduate from UGA or GT.

I think you would have to admit that GA State's location makes it fairly convenient for them to jump on the bandwagon during a winning year.

The casual football fan, as you put it, isn't going to follow some fledgling just formed team. The casual fan is going to root for the biggest team in the state.

I know you don't understand that, seeing as how no one lives in North Dakota, and NDSU is the biggest thing there, but in schools where you have to compete against FBS teams for tv time, recruits, money, etc...the "casual" fan is going for the biggest marketed team, which in Texas is (in no order) UT, A&M, Tech, Baylor, U of H, TCU, Rice...etc.

Ga State is going to have a hell of a time competing against their neighbors (literally) Ga Tech...and UGA

[MplsBison]

Higher priority by the school..but not higher profile in terms of "who gives a flying ****"

Then obviously higher priority wins the day.

[MplsBison]

The casual football fan, as you put it, isn't going to follow some fledgling just formed team. The casual fan is going to root for the biggest team in the state.

I know you don't understand that, seeing as how no one lives in North Dakota, and NDSU is the biggest thing there, but in schools where you have to compete against FBS teams for tv time, recruits, money, etc...the "casual" fan is going for the biggest marketed team, which in Texas is (in no order) UT, A&M, Tech, Baylor, U of H, TCU, Rice...etc.

Ga State is going to have a hell of a time competing against their neighbors (literally) Ga Tech...and UGA

It is possible for UGA and GT to have bad years in the same year that GA State is having a good year.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm glad we both agree that GA State is a football school now.

And I'm glad to see that you think we agree on that.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It is possible for UGA and GT to have bad years in the same year that GA State is having a good year.

and then what happens?

[MplsBison]

and then what happens?

Casual football fans in ATL jump on the GA St bandwagon and buy tickets to games and watch the games on ESPN.

[TheRevSFA]

It is possible for UGA and GT to have bad years in the same year that GA State is having a good year.

That's not going to get away from the love of UGA that exists in Georgia.

That statement is equal to you saying that if NDSU has a bad year, all of the "Casual" fans in North Dakota are going to go for the Fighting Sioux...or whatever their new nickname will be.

[MplsBison]

That's not going to get away from the love of UGA that exists in Georgia.

That statement is equal to you saying that if NDSU has a bad year, all of the "Casual" fans in North Dakota are going to go for the Fighting Sioux...or whatever their new nickname will be.

"Casual fans" means they aren't already aligned or affiliated with a school, such as UGA or GT. They like college football, but not enough to stick with a given team every year. There are millions in Atlanta.

[TheRevSFA]

"Casual fans" means they aren't already aligned or affiliated with a school, such as UGA or GT. They like college football, but not enough to stick with a given team every year. There are millions in Atlanta.

Yep..and they'll go with the biggest team. Ga State won't have a bandwagon..maybe a Miata...but not a bandwagon.

[Tuscon]

That's not going to get away from the love of UGA that exists in Georgia.

That statement is equal to you saying that if NDSU has a bad year, all of the "Casual" fans in North Dakota are going to go for the Fighting Sioux...or whatever their new nickname will be.

At this point in our program, I'm not as concerned with attracting casual fans. I'm more concerned with getting a foothold amongst our Alumni and students who still root for other schools. We need to convert them as they have a stake in the success of the program. Also, there's A LOT of them. 130,000 Alumni in Georgia alone and another 32k or students. Casual fans will come and go, but we need to build a foundation of true fans with connections to the school.

[eaglemachine]

No it's not, you're wrong. It's perceived badly by some fans of FCS schools, probably due to jealousy.

Obviously the competition level of the Sun Belt teams is higher than FCS schools. They pay more money for coaches (and have more paid coaches), they can offer more full scholarships to recruits, have better facilities, better contacts with the NFL, etc. etc. etc.


I disagree with you on this as far as Sunbelt football is concerned. Yes, they have more money, scholarships, recruits, exposure blah blah. However that does not equate to a higher competition level or better product on the field which is why this is such a sticking point with so many people because there are alot of FCS schools that have a much better product on the field and play much better football that are prevented from moving up because they are not in the right location. The fact is Sunbelt Schools have a losing record against FCS competition. Case in point, the second place team in the conference got run over by middle of the road FCS team...not even an elite FCS team...and did it with less scholarships, money etc. I think this proves the power rankings right. For the CAA, SOCON and possibly Missouri Valley, the Sunbelt IS a step down in competition because they are only going after exposure and media markets instead of teams that are actually...I don't know...good.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=312600098

If the Sunbelt did take GSU and App, the two teams would be competitive right away with out the extra scholarships and dominate with the extra scholarships. They could win the conference within a few years. So, instead of taking the best FCS has to offer and building the level of competition and improving the product on the field, the Sunbelt chooses to go ahead crap teams in larger media markets that have not won anything. Until the conference changes that philosophy, the Sunbelt will not be a competitive football conference and will consistently get run over by every other FBS conference and alot of FCS teams.

[TheRevSFA]

At this point in our program, I'm not as concerned with attracting casual fans. I'm more concerned with getting a foothold amongst our Alumni and students who still root for other schools. We need to convert them as they have a stake in the success of the program. Also, there's A LOT of them. 130,000 Alumni in Georgia alone and another 32k or students. Casual fans will come and go, but we need to build a foundation of true fans with connections to the school.

I think that is what Mpls was missing..that you guys do not have big support amongst your alumni and the students who walk your campus wearing UGA or Tech shirts over GA Shirts.

Most FCS schools that are in states with FBS schools have that issue. You'll see students on the SFA and Sam campuses wearing A&M and UT stuff. McNeese has LSU galore...I'm willing to bet even Appy has students wearing Duke stuff during basketball season.

You guys have a long road ahead of you in building the fanbase.

[Tuscon]

I disagree with you on this as far as Sunbelt football is concerned. Yes, they have more money, scholarships, recruits, exposure blah blah. However that does not equate to a higher competition level or better product on the field which is why this is such a sticking point with so many people because there are alot of FCS schools that have a much better product on the field and play much better football that are prevented from moving up because they are not in the right location. The fact is Sunbelt Schools have a losing record against FCS competition. Case in point, the second place team in the conference got run over by middle of the road FCS team...not even an elite FCS team...and did it with less scholarships, money etc. I think this proves the power rankings right. For the CAA, SOCON and possibly Missouri Valley, the Sunbelt IS a step down in competition because they are only going after exposure and media markets instead of teams that are actually...I don't know...good.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=312600098

If the Sunbelt did take GSU and App, the two teams would be competitive right away with out the extra scholarships and dominate with the extra scholarships. They could win the conference within a few years. So, instead of taking the best FCS has to offer and building the level of competition and improving the product on the field, the Sunbelt chooses to go ahead crap teams in larger media markets that have not won anything. Until the conference changes that philosophy, the Sunbelt will not be a competitive football conference and will consistently get run over by every other FBS conference and alot of FCS teams.

The theory goes that you can change the product on the field, but you can't change location. Seems true to me. If you have institutional support for your program it can turn around pretty fast. That being said, Georgia State isn't even in turnaround mode. We had a poor season, and that sucks, but it was only a second season. It seems with all the moves we've made since creating the football program that we have that institutional support to create a good product. Hopefully I'm right.

[MplsBison]

Yep..and they'll go with the biggest team. Ga State won't have a bandwagon..maybe a Miata...but not a bandwagon.

They won't go with the biggest school. I've given the correct reasoning for why this can happen. I can only lead a horse to water.

[Tuscon]

I think that is what Mpls was missing..that you guys do not have big support amongst your alumni and the students who walk your campus wearing UGA or Tech shirts over GA Shirts.

Most FCS schools that are in states with FBS schools have that issue. You'll see students on the SFA and Sam campuses wearing A&M and UT stuff. McNeese has LSU galore...I'm willing to bet even Appy has students wearing Duke stuff during basketball season.

You guys have a long road ahead of you in building the fanbase.

I graduated in 2010 and never saw many students wearing GSU gear. This basketball season I was on campus a lot though(never was a fan, but had a blast) and students everywhere were in blue and white. The culture at Georgia State is definitely changing and the school is working hard to change it.

[TheRevSFA]

They won't go with the biggest school. I've given the correct reasoning for why this can happen. I can only lead a horse to water.

What's your reason again..that UGA and Tech will have a bad year simultaneously and GA State will ride in, swoop up the "casual" fans and magically get games on ESPN?

[MplsBison]

At this point in our program, I'm not as concerned with attracting casual fans. I'm more concerned with getting a foothold amongst our Alumni and students who still root for other schools. We need to convert them as they have a stake in the success of the program. Also, there's A LOT of them. 130,000 Alumni in Georgia alone and another 32k or students. Casual fans will come and go, but we need to build a foundation of true fans with connections to the school.

Of course. I'm talking about the near-mid future for GA St, once your program is established in the Sun Belt.

[MplsBison]

What's your reason again..that UGA and Tech will have a bad year simultaneously and GA State will ride in, swoop up the "casual" fans and magically get games on ESPN?

Yep

[TheRevSFA]

Yep

God I wish I could find a picture for this...but..."I'll believe that when me **** turns purple and tastes like rainbow sherbet"

[klak]

Yep

I don't think you quite understand the dynamic that exists in Georgia.

[TheRevSFA]

I graduated in 2010 and never saw many students wearing GSU gear. This basketball season I was on campus a lot though(never was a fan, but had a blast) and students everywhere were in blue and white. The culture at Georgia State is definitely changing and the school is working hard to change it.

On game day or just in general? I mean..while on campus on non-game days did you see a lot of students in GA state stuff?

That's not meant to be sarcastic.

[MplsBison]

I disagree with you on this as far as Sunbelt football is concerned. Yes, they have more money, scholarships, recruits, exposure blah blah. However that does not equate to a higher competition level or better product on the field which is why this is such a sticking point with so many people because there are alot of FCS schools that have a much better product on the field and play much better football that are prevented from moving up because they are not in the right location. The fact is Sunbelt Schools have a losing record against FCS competition. Case in point, the second place team in the conference got run over by middle of the road FCS team...not even an elite FCS team...and did it with less scholarships, money etc. I think this proves the power rankings right. For the CAA, SOCON and possibly Missouri Valley, the Sunbelt IS a step down in competition because they are only going after exposure and media markets instead of teams that are actually...I don't know...good.

http://espn.go.com/ncf/recap?gameId=312600098

If the Sunbelt did take GSU and App, the two teams would be competitive right away with out the extra scholarships and dominate with the extra scholarships. They could win the conference within a few years. So, instead of taking the best FCS has to offer and building the level of competition and improving the product on the field, the Sunbelt chooses to go ahead crap teams in larger media markets that have not won anything. Until the conference changes that philosophy, the Sunbelt will not be a competitive football conference and will consistently get run over by every other FBS conference and alot of FCS teams.

It figures you'd pick Indy St v Western Kentucky as your trump card. Every season has games that don't make any sense - and that's fine.

Indy State was a top 25 team last year, I don't really what anyone says. They played in the toughest conference in the nation and that's why their record didn't match their talent. Western Kentucky actually turned their season around after that loss. So in the end, you have no idea what you're talking about.

GA Southern and App would not dominate the Sun Belt. In your dreams. And after the display in Fargo last year, I have to wonder if GA Southern would've finished in the top half of the MVFC with that gimmick offense.

[Tuscon]

What's your reason again..that UGA and Tech will have a bad year simultaneously and GA State will ride in, swoop up the "casual" fans and magically get games on ESPN?

Crossing my fingers.

On the same point, Tech does not command nearly the presence that UGA does, even in Atlanta. They don't really have casual fans and a lot of that comes from the attitude of the school towards "outsiders". The whole campus seems elitist and not nice. I'm hoping Georgia State can really become "Atlanta's Team" because Tech sure isn't.

[Tuscon]

On game day or just in general? I mean..while on campus on non-game days did you see a lot of students in GA state stuff?

That's not meant to be sarcastic.

Honestly, I have no idea. I don't get over there much. I do know that our attendance was only around 1500 at the basketball games so most of the students I saw while driving past the dorms and around campus probably weren't going to the game.

[TheRevSFA]

Crossing my fingers.

On the same point, Tech does not command nearly the presence that UGA does, even in Atlanta. They don't really have casual fans and a lot of that comes from the attitude of the school towards "outsiders". The whole campus seems elitist and not nice. I'm hoping Georgia State can really become "Atlanta's Team" because Tech sure isn't.

So, if we were to draw a Georgia football fan map..we could basically cover the entire state in UGA red, with a little siliver near downtown for Tech..a little sliver in the swamp for GA Southern..a tiny sliver in downtown ATL for GA State..and maybe a few Auburn fans near the border?

[eaglemachine]

The theory goes that you can change the product on the field, but you can't change location. Seems true to me. If you have institutional support for your program it can turn around pretty fast. That being said, Georgia State isn't even in turnaround mode. We had a poor season, and that sucks, but it was only a second season. It seems with all the moves we've made since creating the football program that we have that institutional support to create a good product. Hopefully I'm right.

I understand what you are saying however, how long has the Sunbelt been playing football? The fact the conference's product on the field has not improved and possibly will get worse does not bode well. Ga State and the other teams may be able to turn that around by stepping up their game. That we will have to see...but if the past tells us anything, an FCS team will still be able to beat them. Why do you think the Sunbelt never plays elite FCS teams? Any one of the Sunbelt schools would be embarrassed by Georgia Southern or App State or NDSU or Montana or Deleware or...you get the point.

[klak]

Crossing my fingers.

On the same point, Tech does not command nearly the presence that UGA does, even in Atlanta. They don't really have casual fans and a lot of that comes from the attitude of the school towards "outsiders". The whole campus seems elitist and not nice. I'm hoping Georgia State can really become "Atlanta's Team" because Tech sure isn't.

I spent a year there and can confirm this.

[MplsBison]

I don't think you quite understand the dynamic that exists in Georgia.

No different than anywhere else. People follow the winners - as long as the perception is that they're on the top level. They don't follow winners from the lower levels (like FCS).

In ATL, the perception will soon be to casual fans that don't know any better that UGA, GT and GA St are all on the same, top level.

[MplsBison]

Crossing my fingers.

On the same point, Tech does not command nearly the presence that UGA does, even in Atlanta. They don't really have casual fans and a lot of that comes from the attitude of the school towards "outsiders". The whole campus seems elitist and not nice. I'm hoping Georgia State can really become "Atlanta's Team" because Tech sure isn't.

Isn't Tech a public school? You make it sound like Emory.

[FormerPokeCenter]

No it's not, you're wrong. It's perceived badly by some fans of FCS schools, probably due to jealousy.

Obviously the competition level of the Sun Belt teams is higher than FCS schools. They pay more money for coaches (and have more paid coaches), they can offer more full scholarships to recruits, have better facilities, better contacts with the NFL, etc. etc. etc.

Jealousy?? Crackah Please...

The teams currently in the Sunbelt enjoy a collective losing record against the lowly Southland since the teams in the Sunbelt moved up.

USL has managed one win, I think in about five tries against Southland teams....they're 1-2 versus Northwestern since moving up....I don't recall if they've played SE or not, but for years they wouldn't play McNeese and famously got spanked 38-17 when they finally agreed to play us in 2007...So they're 1-3. I think there are losses to other I-AA's and even a loss to Division II North Alabama a few years back. An FBS team losing to a Division II???

ULM has loses to McNeese and SFA (if memory serves me correctly.) I don't think they'll even agree to play Northwestern. ...FAU has loses to McNeese and others. Same with Troy.

The Slumbelch is NOT a good conference....

[klak]

No different than anywhere else. People follow the winners - as long as the perception is that they're on the same level.

In ATL, the perception will soon be to casual fans that don't know any better that UGA, GT and GA St are all on the same level.

In your eyes, are Alabama, Auburn, UAB, and Troy on the same level? Do you expect Troy to pick up bandwagon fans if they go 9-3 while Bama and Auburn go 3-9?

[TheRevSFA]

No different than anywhere else. People follow the winners - as long as the perception is that they're on the same level.

In ATL, the perception will soon be to casual fans that don't know any better that UGA, GT and GA St are all on the same level.

So once again, when NDSU has a bad season, and UND has a good one, the casual fan dynamic in the state of North Dakota is going to switch and you'll see more Green and Pink, correct?

[TheRevSFA]

Jealousy?? Crackah Please...

The teams currently in the Sunbelt enjoy a collective losing record against the lowly Southland since the teams in the Sunbelt moved up.

USL has managed one win, I think in about five tries against Southland teams....they're 1-2 versus Northwestern since moving up....I don't recall if they've played SE or not, but for years they wouldn't play McNeese and famously got spanked 38-17 when they finally agreed to play us in 2007...So they're 1-3. I think there are losses to other I-AA's and even a loss to Division II North Alabama a few years back. An FBS team losing to a Division II???

ULM has loses to McNeese and SFA (if memory serves me correctly.) I don't think they'll even agree to play Northwestern. ...FAU has loses to McNeese and others. Same with Troy.

The Slumbelch is NOT a good conference....

SFA beat ULM in 2003...that's the last time they were able to play eachother.

[TheRevSFA]

In your eyes, are Alabama, Auburn, UAB, and Troy on the same level? Do you expect Troy to pick up bandwagon fans if they go 9-3 while Bama and Auburn go 3-9?

Or University of Texas and U of North Texas? Or MTSU and Tennessee...or Marshall and WVU...or FAU and U of Florida, Florida State, and U of Miami...

etc...etc...etc...

[eaglemachine]

It figures you'd pick Indy St v Western Kentucky as your trump card. Every season has games that don't make any sense - and that's fine.

Indy State was a top 25 team last year, I don't really what anyone says. They played in the toughest conference in the nation and that's why their record didn't match their talent. Western Kentucky actually turned their season around after that loss. So in the end, you have no idea what you're talking about.

GA Southern and App would not dominate the Sun Belt. In your dreams. And after the display in Fargo last year, I have to wonder if GA Southern would've finished in the top half of the MVFC with that gimmick offense.

Fine, pick one of the other losses the Sunbelt has vs FCS teams.

Yes, I believe they would. NDSU would definitely.

NDSU was good vs GSU and deserved to win, but that does not mean our offense is a gimmick or that we suck. We finished in the top 4 so 2011 Eagles were better than 95% of FCS but NDSU was better.

[FormerPokeCenter]

The factual record, with Sunbelt head to head results against actual FCS competition suggests that an elite team, like App State or Ga. Southern would, in fact, not simply dominate that league, they'd decimate it...

This is not a debatable fact. In the few games those guys have agreed to play against FCS competition, they got spanked. USL, who has traditionally been in the top three in that conference, got positively whacked by a McNeese squad that got destroyed in the first round by either Northern Arizona or New Hampsire (I forget which one it was because all of those ugly first round losses are starting to look the same)....in that game, the Sunbelt's two-time leading rusher got held to 38-yards rushing or some such ridiculously low number.

To give you and idea of how thoroughly they got dominated by an average McNeese team, we took a knee on their 12 yard line, going in with over a minute to play in order to let them retain at least SOME dignity. While I personally wanted to see us step on their throats and twist, the head coach was classy...

The sunbelt sucks, to put it mildly...

[MplsBison]

In your eyes, are Alabama, Auburn, UAB, and Troy on the same level? Do you expect Troy to pick up bandwagon fans if they go 9-3 while Bama and Auburn go 3-9?

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

[TheRevSFA]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

In my eyes, North Dakota should be part of Canada. It doesn't mean that it is.

You need to understand how different sports are perceived in different parts of the country

[FormerPokeCenter]

Your argument has ZERO merit since there's no such thing as a casual football fan in the south....your entire sense of identity in the south is determined by what team you support.

Fickle carpet bagging by fans is not allowed...

[FormerPokeCenter]

You may, of course, support different teams in different divisions, but switching allegiances among schools dependent upon record is not an option.

Do we look like we're from north of the Mason-Dixon line or something????

[TheRevSFA]

I'll pick up on this later. I'm off to the beach. xthumbsupx

[Sir William]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

Are you serious, or are you intentionally trying to come off as stupid? There is no such thing as a casual football fan in the State of Alabama...or Georgia, Florida, Tennessee, South Carolina, or Mississippi for that matter. If Alabama and Auburn both went 1-11 and UAB went 11-1, football fans in Birmingham would still think the Blazers suck compared to the Tide and Tigers.

You need to put a call into the Minneapolis police department about your mind, b/c you have obviously lost it.

[eaglewraith]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

Never. ****ing. Happen.

This is serious **** down here. You have no idea what the dynamic is in the south in regards to football. Stick to your Bison, FieldTurf, and hockey.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I can never tell if MPLlS is really serious or not either. Some things he makes a good point on but primarily it is fantasyland talk with no basis other than what one could dream up in their own head if reality were not a factor.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

It figures you'd pick Indy St v Western Kentucky as your trump card. Every season has games that don't make any sense - and that's fine.

Indy State was a top 25 team last year, I don't really what anyone says. They played in the toughest conference in the nation and that's why their record didn't match their talent. Western Kentucky actually turned their season around after that loss. So in the end, you have no idea what you're talking about.

GA Southern and App would not dominate the Sun Belt. In your dreams. And after the display in Fargo last year, I have to wonder if GA Southern would've finished in the top half of the MVFC with that gimmick offense.

Tell me, MplsBison, what is the Sun Belt's record against the SLC again? And what happened the last two times a SBC team played decent FCS teams? That's right, WKU was obliterated 44-16 and and a mediocre McNeese State team also crushed a middle-of-the-pack Sun Belt team 38-17.

And this ties into my larger point I'm making about FCS teams moving up to the FBS....the most successful FCS teams like GSU, App. State, and Montana seem to want no part of the lowest FBS conferences. It's usually so-so programs who jump ship at the first opportunity.

[Tuscon]

Tell me, MplsBison, what is the Sun Belt's record against the SLC again? And what happened the last two times a SBC team played decent FCS teams? That's right, WKU was obliterated 44-16 and and a mediocre McNeese State team also crushed a middle-of-the-pack Sun Belt team 38-17.

And this ties into my larger point I'm making about FCS teams moving up to the FBS....the most successful FCS teams like GSU, App. State, and Montana seem to want no part of the lowest FBS conferences. It's usually so-so programs who jump ship at the first opportunity.

WKU has only played 3 full seasons of FBS football. How are they a good example? They're not too far off from FCS. You also have crazy crap like App St. @ Michigan. That win does not mean they are on the same level as Michigan. What's the name of this site again?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

WKU has only played 3 full seasons of FBS football. How are they a good example? They're not too far off from FCS. You also have crazy crap like App St. @ Michigan. That win does not mean they are on the same level as Michigan. What's the name of this site again?

App. State won by two points. I'm talking about games that were won by 21 and 28 points. What difference does it make how far removed they were from FCS football? The week after Indy State trounced them they barely lost to the Sun Belt Champs and then went on to win every single conference game after that.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

App. State won by two points. I'm talking about games that were won by 21 and 28 points. What difference does it make how far removed they were from FCS football? The week after Indy State trounced them they barely lost to the Sun Belt Champs and then went on to win every single conference game after that.

Not only what difference does it make but I think WKU moved up in 2006 so they would havve had that as a provisional year which I believe still gave them 1/2 of the difference of schollies in that year moving to 74 and then up to 85 in 2007. Could be off one year I guess but they were at least bolstered with 1/2 for another season.

[Tuscon]

Not only what difference does it make but I think WKU moved up in 2006 so they would havve had that as a provisional year which I believe still gave them 1/2 of the difference of schollies in that year moving to 74 and then up to 85 in 2007. Could be off one year I guess but they were at least bolstered with 1/2 for another season.
They did have a year of transitional in there. The point was, they weren't that far off. I just think that on average, the average Sun Belt team is better than the average FCS team. If they aren't, it probably has more to do with institutional support and/or coaching because they do attract better talent.

[Cocky]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

Wouldn't be a lot of wagon jumping in Alabama, UAT and Auburn fans are some of the most unrealistic fans in America.

App State and most likely Ga Southern would jump to the SB if invited but they are like us in a rural area without a date to the FBS.

[FormerPokeCenter]

They did have a year of transitional in there. The point was, they weren't that far off. I just think that on average, the average Sun Belt team is better than the average FCS team. If they aren't, it probably has more to do with institutional support and/or coaching because they do attract better talent.

The head to head record proves otherwise. The Sunbelt is a **** conference. The record is out there if you'll bother to actually go look for it....

It's okay to hold certain views, but when those views aren't supported by, you know, the actual facts, then those views are what's commonly known as a delusion...

This isn't trolling the Georgia State threads, this is simply advising you that your opinion conflicts with the factual record...

[ursus arctos horribilis]

They did have a year of transitional in there. The point was, they weren't that far off. I just think that on average, the average Sun Belt team is better than the average FCS team. If they aren't, it probably has more to do with institutional support and/or coaching because they do attract better talent.

Sure but you are stating one conference so it maybe ought to be compared against the conference you would be exiting. The average SB team is not better than the average CAA, MVFC, etc. teams.

The cost will be great and hopefully the perceived benefits will be as well but the actual benefits I just find it hard to see those. It ain't gonna be in quality football unless something changes drastically real quick.

[Tuscon]

Sure but you are stating one conference so it maybe ought to be compared against the conference you would be exiting. The average SB team is not better than the average CAA, MVFC, etc. teams.

The cost will be great and hopefully the perceived benefits will be as well but the actual benefits I just find it hard to see those. It ain't gonna be in quality football unless something changes drastically real quick.

Well, it will be a halfway new conference with USA full football members next year, us becoming full members in two, CUSA poaching a couple of teams(FIU and UNIT), and their replacements joining up. Karl Benson being a new commissioner and all. Lots of moving parts right now. I'll tell you beyond all of the facts people throw at you about the merits of the Sun Belt, the closest football school is 3 hours away. In the CAA that number is 9.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Well, it will be a halfway new conference with USA full football members next year, us becoming full members in two, CUSA poaching a couple of teams(FIU and UNIT), and their replacements joining up. Karl Benson being a new commissioner and all. Lots of moving parts right now. I'll tell you beyond all of the facts people throw at you about the merits of the Sun Belt, the closest football school is 3 hours away. In the CAA that number is 9.

That's an entirely reasonable and thoughtful answer....

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Well, it will be a halfway new conference with USA full football members next year, us becoming full members in two, CUSA poaching a couple of teams(FIU and UNIT), and their replacements joining up. Karl Benson being a new commissioner and all. Lots of moving parts right now. I'll tell you beyond all of the facts people throw at you about the merits of the Sun Belt, the closest football school is 3 hours away. In the CAA that number is 9.

Yeah, that's a benefit that couldn't be argued with. If people stuck to those kinds of arguments this would be over quick but when they go to slapass statements like "better" it ain't true and it ain't gonna fly.

FWIW with Benson coming in and some defections I would not count on football getting better.

[TheRevSFA]

Benson is notorious for ****ing up conferences

See WAC for example..

[Tuscon]

Did he mess up more than the WAC? I would hardly call one failing conference notorious. Also, to be fair, he didn't really mess the WAC up. They keep getting raided which could mean that the conference was good at developing teams(just not keeping them).

[dgtw]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

I live in Birmingham and I can tell you nobody views UAB on the same level as
Bama and Auburn.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I live in Birmingham and I can tell you nobody views UAB on the same level as
Bama and Auburn.

Oh come on, I'm sure the "casual fan" that doesn't have a team picked will certainly know enough to see these teams as equals.

And then they'll move on and keep not giving a **** about football because if they did they would already have chosen a team already.

[dgtw]

Just for laughs, I lurk on UAB's message board. They are some very passionate and delusional fans on there who think they would be on the level of the Big Two if they got their own stadium and weren't playing in an antiquated Legion Field.

But you aren't going to change the culture of a state. I've seen a lot of people on there griping because they see students wearing more Alabama or Auburn shirts and hats than UAB. They seem to have a lot in common with Georgia State.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just for laughs, I lurk on UAB's message board. They are some very passionate and delusional fans on there who think they would be on the level of the Big Two if they got their own stadium and weren't playing in an antiquated Legion Field.

But you aren't going to change the culture of a state. I've seen a lot of people on there griping because they see students wearing more Alabama or Auburn shirts and hats than UAB. They seem to have a lot in common with Georgia State.

And a few other fans around the country for that matter that think the move will make a change for them as far as respect goes.

[tractorapp]

In my eyes, casual fans in Birmingham think UAB is on the same level as Bama and Auburn. If there were ever a year where both of the big teams were losing and UAB won, the Blazers would pick up a lot of bandwagon support from B'ham casual fans.

That's a roughly equivalent context to the discussion of casual fans in Atlanta jumping on GA St bandwagon.

Man, things must be a lot different in North Dakota than the southeast. No way casual fans here are going to care about UAB, Ga State, or App for that matter unless they are consistant, winning seasons and knock off a big team like we did against Michigan in 2007. Even then, the progress towards winning the casual fan from the big boys will be slow. We are not building much of our success on the casual fan, but rather we are working to keep young alumni involved.

[dgtw]

I think the Sun Belt is better than people give it credit for. It started out as a basketball only league, but when those schools moved on, they did what they needed to do to survive. They added football and were a rather far flung league for a time.

But now they are somewhat geographically compact and will be down to only one non-football school after this year. No, they aren't the SEC, but they aren't trying to be. I think it will be a better fit for Georgia State than the CAA with a number of short bus trips for games.

[asumike83]

I think it will be a better fit for Georgia State than the CAA with a number of short bus trips for games.

Let's try to keep this civil, no need for the "short bus" comment... very insensitive. :D

[FormerPokeCenter]

I think the Sun Belt is better than people give it credit for. It started out as a basketball only league, but when those schools moved on, they did what they needed to do to survive. They added football and were a rather far flung league for a time.

But now they are somewhat geographically compact and will be down to only one non-football school after this year. No, they aren't the SEC, but they aren't trying to be. I think it will be a better fit for Georgia State than the CAA with a number of short bus trips for games.

Tell the average USL fan that the 'Belt isn't the SEC's absolute equal and watch what happens.......

[Sly Fox]

Tell the average USL fan that the 'Belt isn't the SEC's absolute equal and watch what happens.......

Is that sort of like a McNeese fan being told the Southland is not the Sun Belt's equal?

Frankly this whole discussion is pointless. Georgia State does not aspire to FCS greatness and schools like Georgia Southern don't aspire to FBS mediocrity. Can't the two concepts co-exist without encroaching on each other?

The Sun Belt appears to be the perfect fit for Georgia State. Why is that so offensive to so many regional fans?

[MplsBison]

Is that sort of like a McNeese fan being told the Southland is not the Sun Belt's equal?

Frankly this whole discussion is pointless. Georgia State does not aspire to FCS greatness and schools like Georgia Southern don't aspire to FBS mediocrity. Can't the two concepts co-exist without encroaching on each other?

The Sun Belt appears to be the perfect fit for Georgia State. Why is that so offensive to so many regional fans?

There are some fans of schools that know the FCS is the absolute ceiling of the financial commitment their institution can make to the sport of football.

So they hate even the appearance of another school leap frogging them in financial commitment to the sport.

[MplsBison]

I live in Birmingham and I can tell you nobody views UAB on the same level as
Bama and Auburn.

Well frankly, you don't know everyone in a metro area of more than a million people. Granted, I was talking about Atlanta - which is obviously much more diverse than Birmingham when it comes to people from different areas of the country, other countries and cultures, etc.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is a greater than zero number of people (both in B'ham and ATL) who are not aligned or affiliated with the main public school football programs, who don't know that much about college football but are still casual fans of the sport.

That's a fact and you're wrong to claim otherwise. The south is no different than anywhere. You can deny it up and down and I don't care, you're wrong.


The scenario is a lot more plausible in Atlanta because it's much more diverse, larger population and the fact that both GT and Georgia have had down years in the recent past. There are people that GA St could pick up on the bandwagon given the right alignment of the stars.

Same is possible at UAB, but it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge - simply because there hasn't been a year yet when 'Bama and Auburn have both been down and UAB has been up. I don't know if those programs ever really go down in the same year. Certainly not recently.


My point still stands and I am correct. Thank you

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Well frankly, you don't know everyone in a metro area of more than a million people. Granted, I was talking about Atlanta - which is obviously much more diverse than Birmingham when it comes to people from different areas of the country, other countries and cultures, etc.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is a greater than zero number of people (both in B'ham and ATL) who are not aligned or affiliated with the main public school football programs, who don't know that much about college football but are still casual fans of the sport.

That's a fact and you're wrong to claim otherwise. The south is no different than anywhere. You can deny it up and down and I don't care, you're wrong.


The scenario is a lot more plausible in Atlanta because it's much more diverse, larger population and the fact that both GT and Georgia have had down years in the recent past. There are people that GA St could pick up on the bandwagon given the right alignment of the stars.

Same is possible at UAB, but it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge - simply because there hasn't been a year yet when 'Bama and Auburn have both been down and UAB has been up. I don't know if those programs ever really go down in the same year. Certainly not recently.


My point still stands and I am correct. Thank youxlolx

[eaglewraith]

Well frankly, you don't know everyone in a metro area of more than a million people. Granted, I was talking about Atlanta - which is obviously much more diverse than Birmingham when it comes to people from different areas of the country, other countries and cultures, etc.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is a greater than zero number of people (both in B'ham and ATL) who are not aligned or affiliated with the main public school football programs, who don't know that much about college football but are still casual fans of the sport.

That's a fact and you're wrong to claim otherwise. The south is no different than anywhere. You can deny it up and down and I don't care, you're wrong.


The scenario is a lot more plausible in Atlanta because it's much more diverse, larger population and the fact that both GT and Georgia have had down years in the recent past. There are people that GA St could pick up on the bandwagon given the right alignment of the stars.

Same is possible at UAB, but it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge - simply because there hasn't been a year yet when 'Bama and Auburn have both been down and UAB has been up. I don't know if those programs ever really go down in the same year. Certainly not recently.


My point still stands and I am correct. Thank you

The number of people in Atlanta barking like retarded dogs and saying TO HELL WITH GEORGIA would greatly disagree with you, thereby rendering your point null and void.

You don't know what the **** you're talking about in regards to what's going on here.

[Mr. C]

The number of people in Atlanta barking like retarded dogs and saying TO HELL WITH GEORGIA would greatly disagree with you, thereby rendering your point null and void.


The barking thing makes me laugh. The Georgia Bulldogs have some of the goofiest fans in the country. I've covered a few NCAA tennis championships over the years and I couldn't believe the barking and throwing of dog biscuits that you would witness from these fans. Some of the rudest fans anywhere. I also had former USC men's tennis coach Dick Leach share numerous stories of his team's experiences down in Athens. Some pretty unbelievable stuff. And that was just tennis. I've also witnessed basketball games in Athens. The football fans are even worse.

[dgtw]

Yes, I guess all the time I spend listening to local talk shows, reading the paper and just talking to various people means so much less than someone hundreds of miles away, who obviously has their pulse on the opinion of the football fans in the Birmingham area.

Texas has had two straight bad seasons, Texas A&M just fired their coach and Houston is coming off a great season led by a star quarterback. So I guess Houston is at the top of the charts in Texas these days.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes, I guess all the time I spend listening to local talk shows, reading the paper and just talking to various people means so much less than someone hundreds of miles away, who obviously has their pulse on the opinion of the football fans in the Birmingham area.

Texas has had two straight bad seasons, Texas A&M just fired their coach and Houston is coming off a great season led by a star quarterback. So I guess Houston is at the top of the charts in Texas these days.

He doesn't think things out too far dg.

It is purer magic watching him try to dig himself out of these sorts of things.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think the Sun Belt is better than people give it credit for. It started out as a basketball only league, but when those schools moved on, they did what they needed to do to survive. They added football and were a rather far flung league for a time.

But now they are somewhat geographically compact and will be down to only one non-football school after this year. No, they aren't the SEC, but they aren't trying to be. I think it will be a better fit for Georgia State than the CAA with a number of short bus trips for games.

The problem is that Sun Belt basketball does not compare to CAA basketball, and thus is in every way inferior to the CAA. At one time its basketball was better, but no more. And yet, the school will spend more on the extra scholarships to football as well, so they'll spend more money for less conference. The expenses they lose in flights gets eaten up by spending on 85 kids on full scholarship.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Is that sort of like a McNeese fan being told the Southland is not the Sun Belt's equal?

Frankly this whole discussion is pointless. Georgia State does not aspire to FCS greatness and schools like Georgia Southern don't aspire to FBS mediocrity. Can't the two concepts co-exist without encroaching on each other?

The Sun Belt appears to be the perfect fit for Georgia State. Why is that so offensive to so many regional fans?

The averge McNeese fan knows that the Southland is not the Sunbelt's equal, because - frankly - even the average McNeese fan KNOWS the Southland owns the Sunbelt in head to head football competition.....other sports? Maybe not so much ;)

[asumike83]

GA State is never going to surpass GT, much less UGA in the city of Atlanta. Even their fans will tell you this. That is not the point of this move at all. The Sun Belt is a better geographic fit and it allows them to get a start with FBS football. It's a great move for them, a no-brainer really. I see them being what ECU is in NC if they're successful; a nice following but behind the BCS schools. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either, best of luck to them.

[MplsBison]

Yes, I guess all the time I spend listening to local talk shows, reading the paper and just talking to various people means so much less than someone hundreds of miles away, who obviously has their pulse on the opinion of the football fans in the Birmingham area.

Texas has had two straight bad seasons, Texas A&M just fired their coach and Houston is coming off a great season led by a star quarterback. So I guess Houston is at the top of the charts in Texas these days.

I've made a very clear, lucid point that is correct.

You (and others) are, I believe purposefully, ignoring that point and pretending that I'm saying something else. I don't understand why.

I understand that there are people living in Atlanta who are aligned or affiliated with UGA and GT. I understand those people will never switch their allegiances, no matter how poorly UGA/GT play and how well GA St plays.

I haven't argued against those points in this entire thread. It's unfortunate that you've gone on some wild tangent and pretended that I have.


The simple fact that you can't refute is that there are people living in Atlanta who are casual fans of college football who are not aligned or affiliated with UGA or GT. I know this fact because I've lived there and met said people.

Maybe we should start from that fact and work our way back to the very clear point I've made?

[dgtw]

If UAB went 11-1 and was ranked nationally, would attendance and media attention increase? I believe it would. Would those "fans" stick around if UAB declined again? I would doubt it. Bandwagon fans aren't real fans and aren't what you want to build your program on.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I've made a very clear, lucid point that is correct.

You (and others) are, I believe purposefully, ignoring that point and pretending that I'm saying something else. I don't understand why.

I understand that there are people living in Atlanta who are aligned or affiliated with UGA and GT. I understand those people will never switch their allegiances, no matter how poorly UGA/GT play and how well GA St plays.

I haven't argued against those points in this entire thread. It's unfortunate that you've gone on some wild tangent and pretended that I have.


The simple fact that you can't refute is that there are people living in Atlanta who are casual fans of college football who are not aligned or affiliated with UGA or GT. I know this fact because I've lived there and met said people.

Maybe we should start from that fact and work our way back to the very clear point I've made?

You can't build a program and raise money by depending on casual fans. Look at EVERY single long-term successful program. They have legions of hard-core rabid fans that stick with them through thick and thin. Look at times when LSU and Alabama have been "down"....they still sell out. Casual fans don't do that.

And you don't build rabid long term loyalty with a good season every decade or so...

Market size means squat. What do Austin, Lincoln, Norman, Tuscaloosa, Baton Rouge, Ann Arbor and South Bend have in common? I mean, BESIDES not being major markets???

Hard core fan base and a long, established history of WINNING....

Show me one team that's been a success because of casual fans....

[rbostic278]

first off congrats to ga state you had a plan and went out and got it done, hats off. second, don't think that being in a big media market is going automaticlly make you successful, thats so overrated. i think the sunbelt has missed the mark not by choosing ga state but by not choosing ga southern. i here all this talk about big market vs small market and makes alot of since if you own the market and can see yourself caputuring a large part of it in the forseeable future. in the market that ga state proudly proclaims they can only lay claim to about 5%,uga 70%,gt 20% & ga sou 5 %. i was alittle generous with the shares for gt and ga state. ga southern has large fanbase not only in ga but sc,fl and nc. so when people say that ga southerns market is 28000, with is stupid, are completely wrong. i am from statesboro and the 20000 fans dont come from there on avg id say abt 5 or 6th.

[rbostic278]

..continue,,i live in the savannah/costal empire area and just like everywhere else in the state uga is king even in atl. the point i am trying to make is that ga southerns quote on quote stretches much farther than stb but it years to develop

[cbarrier90]

Well frankly, you don't know everyone in a metro area of more than a million people. Granted, I was talking about Atlanta - which is obviously much more diverse than Birmingham when it comes to people from different areas of the country, other countries and cultures, etc.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is a greater than zero number of people (both in B'ham and ATL) who are not aligned or affiliated with the main public school football programs, who don't know that much about college football but are still casual fans of the sport.

That's a fact and you're wrong to claim otherwise. The south is no different than anywhere. You can deny it up and down and I don't care, you're wrong.


The scenario is a lot more plausible in Atlanta because it's much more diverse, larger population and the fact that both GT and Georgia have had down years in the recent past. There are people that GA St could pick up on the bandwagon given the right alignment of the stars.

Same is possible at UAB, but it hasn't happened yet to my knowledge - simply because there hasn't been a year yet when 'Bama and Auburn have both been down and UAB has been up. I don't know if those programs ever really go down in the same year. Certainly not recently.


My point still stands and I am correct. Thank you

NDSU, Montana, etc. have the rare privilege of being their state's flagship institutions in the FCS. For the other 95%, we never feel as though we get enough respect since we are viewed as a "lower" brand of football. At GSU, ASU, etc. this is true despite the number of butts we put in the seats and our winning traditions at this level.

Kids in North Dakota, South Dakota, Montana, etc. grow up WANTING to be a Bison, Jackrabbit, or Griz. Kids in North Carolina and Georgia want to grow up to be Heels or 'Dogs.

That's reality. That's the way it's always been, and the way it always will be. Georgia State may be successful in the Sun Belt, they may flop, I can't tell you. But it will be impossible for them to become as "big" as Georgia or even GT.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

GA State is never going to surpass GT, much less UGA in the city of Atlanta. Even their fans will tell you this. That is not the point of this move at all. The Sun Belt is a better geographic fit and it allows them to get a start with FBS football. It's a great move for them, a no-brainer really. I see them being what ECU is in NC if they're successful; a nice following but behind the BCS schools. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that either, best of luck to them.

I agree it's a good move, but I don't see them anywhere close to having a fanbase like ECU. UAB is a more appropriate comparison. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ga Southern and App ended up Sunbelt because of the difficulties (post-season eligibility) associated with forming a new conference.

The ESPN/BCS contract ends with the 2013 season, so there's still some movement that will happen over the next 12-18 months.

[GlassOnion]

Well, the SB had been getting better...

Its going to be painful for the Sun Belters for sure, watching their new peer institution, Ga St, get their teeth kicked in next season by an FCS schedule. Im thinking 1-3 wins tops, with a winless season a real probability. Its really gong to hurt the perception of the conference.

[CollegeSportsInfo]

Let's face it, the SunBelt is a much better fit for GaState than the CAA ever was. GaState is a joke and the SunBelt is a joke...it's a Cinderella story come true. Let them enjoy a conference that's the de facto whipping boy of the SEC, the mugging victim of average to elite FCS schools, and the short-kid in every other sport. The CAA has its worst year in basketball in a long time and its champion is a 12 seed. Meanwhile, the SunBelt champion is a 16 seed that barely beat an MVSU team from a conference that had a total of seven OOC division one wins between all its members. It'll sure be fun destroying another FBS-transitional program this upcoming season and I'm sure the rest of the CAA will relish the opportunity as well. At least GaState fans can take comfort in the fact that it'll officially go down as a 0-0 conference record, but I hope they do enjoy that GoDaddy.com Bowl once every decade and the three FCS losses in that same period of time...it's exactly what their future holds.

I get that this is an FCS forum, but come on, folks. Sun Belt is a joke? It's a conference comprised of like-minded universities in a geographically sound footprint. Yes, sounds like a real joke. Meanwhile, you have an FCS HYPBRID conference in the CAA stretching from Boston to Wilmington, NC (thanks to the GA St. departure). But it's a hybrid. You have the Big Sky stretching from Sacramento (SLO if you include FB only schools) to Washington, to Arizona, to North Dakota...a conference that makes the equivalent of minimum wage due to being a 1 bid #15 seed conference in basketball, low revenue TV deal, etc...yet with all that strenuous travel. But put that all aside if you wish, and look at just FCS conference. You have the NEC, SWAC, MEAC...which in football, are lower quality than many D2 schools. And for some of the FCS conferences, academics are clearly not a concern either.

So the point being, if you're Georgia St., and the NCAA says you need to get an invite from an existing FBS conference to EVER upgrade, and knowing that there will likely never be a spot in the top conferences every school wants to be in, then a school must upgrade to whatever conference will take them in order to prove themselves. If GA St. proves itself, maybe someday they get an invite to the CUSA/MWC alliance (or merger TBD). If not, they are in a conference with a superior regional fit for them, all while playing in a city where MANY alumni live from the other SB schools (and could buy tickets).

[FormerPokeCenter]

I get that this is an FCS forum, but come on, folks. Sun Belt is a joke? It's a conference comprised of like-minded universities in a geographically sound footprint. Yes, sounds like a real joke. Meanwhile, you have an FCS HYPBRID conference in the CAA stretching from Boston to Wilmington, NC (thanks to the GA St. departure). But it's a hybrid. You have the Big Sky stretching from Sacramento (SLO if you include FB only schools) to Washington, to Arizona, to North Dakota...a conference that makes the equivalent of minimum wage due to being a 1 bid #15 seed conference in basketball, low revenue TV deal, etc...yet with all that strenuous travel. But put that all aside if you wish, and look at just FCS conference. You have the NEC, SWAC, MEAC...which in football, are lower quality than many D2 schools. And for some of the FCS conferences, academics are clearly not a concern either.

So the point being, if you're Georgia St., and the NCAA says you need to get an invite from an existing FBS conference to EVER upgrade, and knowing that there will likely never be a spot in the top conferences every school wants to be in, then a school must upgrade to whatever conference will take them in order to prove themselves. If GA St. proves itself, maybe someday they get an invite to the CUSA/MWC alliance (or merger TBD). If not, they are in a conference with a superior regional fit for them, all while playing in a city where MANY alumni live from the other SB schools (and could buy tickets).

The point you're missing is that in the FCS, we determine a champion the old fashioned way, in head to head competition, on the field. So, when we hear Georgia State and most of the Sunbelt teams talk about what a clear separation there is between their programs and ours here in the FCS, it's laughable because the head-to-head record between the Sunbelt and FCS teams tell the tale. That's what makes it a joke, particularly when you hear the delusional fan bases in the Sunbelt (Yes, USL, I'm looking at you) talk about their relevance in the college football world.

When you get spanked by FCS and Division II teams (Yes, USL, I'm looking at you again) you've got ZERO business talking about the national scene.

So, you'll have to be mindful that while we wish Georgia State well on their Quixotic quest for relevance, we're not going to listen to arguments that paint the Sunbelt as anything other than what it is: A conference affiliation that makes sense for Georgia State, geographically and economically.

Now, here's the rub. Georgia State's spent the last three years claiming that since they're well funded, they'll be able to do things that other FCS can only dream about doing and that their rise to the top of the FCS ranks was a foregone conclusion.

Now the truth comes out. The Sunbelt is a more affordable option for them than the CAA. Coincidentally, their chances of winning in the Sunbelt are higher than they were in the CAA...

So, you can put lipstick on that pig of a program and that pig of a conference, but - at the end of the day, it's still a pig. it just happens to be a pig that makes sense geographically and economically.

There's no shame in that, so I don't really understand the Pathological Panther need to portray it as something that it's not...

Even though we're critical of the AgitProp coming from the Panther fans, I think it's a safe bet that we all wish them well in their new endeavor.

Good riddance! ;)

[dbackjon]

A casual fan doesn't know that the Sunbelch exists...

[Seven Would Be Nice]

A casual fan doesn't know that the Sunbelch exists...

A casual fan doesn't know the entire FCS exists. They at least see Sunbelch teams on their schedule.

[dbackjon]

A casual fan doesn't know the entire FCS exists. They at least see Sunbelch teams on their schedule.

And wonder why they are playing another I-AA team...

[Skjellyfetti]

And wonder why they are playing another I-AA team...

And when they play us they wonder why they're playing another D-II team.

[asumike83]

I agree it's a good move, but I don't see them anywhere close to having a fanbase like ECU. UAB is a more appropriate comparison. I also wouldn't be surprised if Ga Southern and App ended up Sunbelt because of the difficulties (post-season eligibility) associated with forming a new conference.

The ESPN/BCS contract ends with the 2013 season, so there's still some movement that will happen over the next 12-18 months.

Very true in regards to fan support. ECU sells out a 50,000 seat stadium every week, which is a testament to the great support they have. Probably wasn't the best comparison, but I used ECU as an example of what they would be if successful more in terms of perception. ECU has had their share of success but will never be viewed as an equal to UNC or NC State, much as GA State would not be viewed as a true peer to UGA and GT even with on-field success. They could, however, have a reputation as a solid mid-major program similar to ECU.

Don't know quite enough about UAB to make a good comparison but that may be more accurate.

[unknown3]

The point you're missing is that in the FCS, we determine a champion the old fashioned way, in head to head competition, on the field. So, when we hear Georgia State and most of the Sunbelt teams talk about what a clear separation there is between their programs and ours here in the FCS, it's laughable because the head-to-head record between the Sunbelt and FCS teams tell the tale. That's what makes it a joke, particularly when you hear the delusional fan bases in the Sunbelt (Yes, USL, I'm looking at you) talk about their relevance in the college football world.

When you get spanked by FCS and Division II teams (Yes, USL, I'm looking at you again) you've got ZERO business talking about the national scene.

So, you'll have to be mindful that while we wish Georgia State well on their Quixotic quest for relevance, we're not going to listen to arguments that paint the Sunbelt as anything other than what it is: A conference affiliation that makes sense for Georgia State, geographically and economically.

Now, here's the rub. Georgia State's spent the last three years claiming that since they're well funded, they'll be able to do things that other FCS can only dream about doing and that their rise to the top of the FCS ranks was a foregone conclusion.

Now the truth comes out. The Sunbelt is a more affordable option for them than the CAA. Coincidentally, their chances of winning in the Sunbelt are higher than they were in the CAA...

So, you can put lipstick on that pig of a program and that pig of a conference, but - at the end of the day, it's still a pig. it just happens to be a pig that makes sense geographically and economically.

There's no shame in that, so I don't really understand the Pathological Panther need to portray it as something that it's not...

Even though we're critical of the AgitProp coming from the Panther fans, I think it's a safe bet that we all wish them well in their new endeavor.

Good riddance! ;)

If you win that championship on the field and no one watches or cares, what does it really matter? People constantly bash the Sunbelt but would you be willing to wager that more people watched the go daddy bowl or whatever it is or the FCS championship game? Outside of FCS grads and fans, no one cares. Would I rather be 8-4 and have to pay to be seen on tv or expose myself on a national channel? At the end of the day, no matter how "bottom tier" the Sunbelt may be to folks on here they will still get more priority over FCS teams. That's just the way it works.

[FormerPokeCenter]

If you win that championship on the field and no one watches or cares, what does it really matter? People constantly bash the Sunbelt but would you be willing to wager that more people watched the go daddy bowl or whatever it is or the FCS championship game? Outside of FCS grads and fans, no one cares. Would I rather be 8-4 and have to pay to be seen on tv or expose myself on a national channel? At the end of the day, no matter how "bottom tier" the Sunbelt may be to folks on here they will still get more priority over FCS teams. That's just the way it works.

Sure it matters....you're on record as being the unequivocal NCAA champion in your sport. The GoDaddy.com bowl? Gee, I bet there's a long list of agate clerks who can recite the winners of that bowl every year for as long as GoDaddy agrees to sponsor them...And the Sunbelt's actual tie is to the New Orleans Bowl....

You can choose to play in whatever meaningless bowl games that switch sponsors and identities every few years and if that's your definition of success, then I suppose you should embrace that....

It's like the early 90's, when Quality Training was all the rage in corporations. They spent tons of money trying to teach employes that terms like "quality transportation" were fungible commodities, so if your goal for "quality transportation" was that it had to convenient and affordable, but also dependable, then a car like a Yugo was to be viewed on even footing with a BMW or a Mercedes, since all of them were dependable and convenient. The term affordable was loosely applied, but the practical reality is that a Yugo couldn't be on even footing with a BMW or Mercedes without help from Xibit and the crew at Pimp My Ride....

But, that's the sort of mental masturbation you have to go through in order to view the Sunbelt in favorable terms....You have to dispense with reality and construct a strawman universe with a set of highly subjective and completely preposterous assumptions to build the world where the Sunbelt is a great conference ;)

[ASUMountaineer]

If you win that championship on the field and no one watches or cares, what does it really matter? People constantly bash the Sunbelt but would you be willing to wager that more people watched the go daddy bowl or whatever it is or the FCS championship game? Outside of FCS grads and fans, no one cares. Would I rather be 8-4 and have to pay to be seen on tv or expose myself on a national channel? At the end of the day, no matter how "bottom tier" the Sunbelt may be to folks on here they will still get more priority over FCS teams. That's just the way it works.

That's probably why people post on an FCS board, because they care about FCS teams.

The casual fan, which is the rage amongst FBS newcomers, probably wouldn't know that Troy is technically on the same level as Alabama...let alone in the same state. Football people know that Troy is FBS and ASU is FCS. But, that's not the targeted casual fan demographic.

I support ASU moving to the FBS, if the right scenario arises. I also agree with your point that the FBS teams get priority over FCS teams. That is how it works, but that doesn't mean that SunBelt teams are free from criticism from FCS fans.

[chattownmocs]

Didn't waste my time reading the whole thread but Georgia State is a far more desirable choice than Georgia Southern Or Appalachian State. The fact that you started this thread shows the true delusion of these 2 fanbases. Let's see here let's just start with the names. Georgia State, Georgia Southern, App State. Ill take the Georgia State there. How about the location, Atlanta, Georgia, Statesboro, Georgia, Boone North Carolina. Nest the stadiums, Georgia Dome, Kidd Brewer...etc............. List goes on and on.

[TheRevSFA]

Didn't waste my time reading the whole article but Georgia State is a far more desirable choice than Georgia Southern Or Appalachian State.

and Chatty as well

[ASUMountaineer]

Didn't waste my time reading the whole article but Georgia State is a far more desirable choice than Georgia Southern Or Appalachian State.

Awesome.

Of course, as the resident thread-topic general, you'll notice that the topic of the thread is not that Georgia Southern or Appalachian is a more desirable choice than Georgia State. Please do your best to follow the thread.

[Apphole]

Didn't waste my time reading the whole thread but Georgia State is a far more desirable choice than Georgia Southern Or Appalachian State. The fact that you started this thread shows the true delusion of these 2 fanbases. Let's see here let's just start with the names. Georgia State, Georgia Southern, App State. Ill take the Georgia State there. How about the location, Atlanta, Georgia, Statesboro, Georgia, Boone North Carolina. Nest the stadiums, Georgia Dome, Kidd Brewer...etc.............

This post makes me realize that Georgia State is a combination of the names of Georgia Southern and Appalachian State. No wonder they got an FBS invite!


List goes on and on.

Actually, I'm pretty sure it stops there. This proves location is the most desirable plus to have in light of current movement, but they fall behind the other two schools in every single other category (they might have better academics than the Stink, I don't know)

[FormerPokeCenter]

Awesome. ......Please do your best to follow the thread.

Why should he start doing that NOW?

[TheRevSFA]

Apparently the Belt has made it official for GA State

In related news, ULM is happy that they have someone to beat in football

[Mountaineer#96]

Didn't waste my time reading the whole thread but Georgia State is a far more desirable choice than Georgia Southern Or Appalachian State. The fact that you started this thread shows the true delusion of these 2 fanbases. Let's see here let's just start with the names. Georgia State, Georgia Southern, App State. Ill take the Georgia State there. How about the location, Atlanta, Georgia, Statesboro, Georgia, Boone North Carolina. Nest the stadiums, Georgia Dome, Kidd Brewer...etc............. List goes on and on.

At least he warned us this time before jumping into the thread with his normal drabble.

[Skjellyfetti]

In related news, ULM is happy that they have someone to beat in football

Well, they did beat a Nick Saban coached Alabama team a few years ago.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/23104/billboard.jpg

[FormerPokeCenter]

Well, they did beat a Nick Saban coached Alabama team a few years ago.

http://assets.sbnation.com/assets/23104/billboard.jpg

That's like USL's win over Texas A&M.....They'll ride those into perpetuity, but conveniently forget that both usually loose to the Southland...

[Skjellyfetti]

Yah, McNeese would never ride a win over an SEC power into perpetuity. xwhistlex





Wait, aren't there 50+ page threads here everytime someone knocks off a ****ty MAC or Sun Belt team? Don't we consider wins over ****ty MAC and Sun Belt teams quality wins every year come playoff time? xlolx

[FormerPokeCenter]

Yah, McNeese would never ride a win over an SEC power into perpetuity. xwhistlex

Wait, aren't there 50+ page threads here everytime someone knocks off a ****ty MAC or Sun Belt team? Don't we consider wins over ****ty MAC and Sun Belt teams quality wins every year come playoff time? xlolx

We mention that we've beaten ULM and USL, but that's not what we hang out hat on...

Quite frankly, our win at The Rock over the team that beat Michigan is more worthy of being memorialized into perpetuity than a win over USL. We're SUPPOSED to beat USL and ULM. Nobody expected us to beat App ;)

[fc97]

it wasnt meant as a smack to appalachian state or georgia southern in talking about media markets. it more speaks to the logistics of how the game works now at the top, or even at our level.

for instance. people mock the last two southern conference additions much, but elon and samford added the two biggest metro areas to the conference. to take another look, they both added larger media markets to the conference. it can be argued on how this helps anything. but the exposure for the conference has increased some in the triad and triangle due to elon and has gone from nothing to a small amount in alabama. it can then be argued on what type of exposure would coastal have given that the conference did not already have? a tiny myrtle beach market? an already covered south carolina market?

another instance, the colonial. in adding georgia state, hofstra, northeastern and drexel, what did the colonial do? they added a school in every larger media market on the eastern seaboard in their footprint. this also explains why they went after elon and some socon schools a short while before. trying to cover something of the larger nc and sc markets.

another example is east carolina and the constant snub by the big east. what does east carolina lack? a large media market. the same thing appalachian state is missing and the same thing georgia southern is missing.

it doesnt matter what the saturation point of the market is. the point is, there is potential. georgia state can always get better at football or sports. but regardless, one thing they will always have is the market they sit in.

[chattownmocs]

That's like USL's win over Texas A&M.....They'll ride those into perpetuity, but conveniently forget that both usually loose to the Southland...

I'm doubting that sign was put up by ULM or that it was even in the state of Louisiana. I'm guessing that sign was in the state of Alabama and somebody from Auburn put it up.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I'm doubting that sign was put up by ULM or that it was even in the state of Louisiana. I'm guessing that sign was in the state of Alabama and somebody from Auburn put it up.

The sign was sponsored by Hixon Ford, which is conveniently located in Monroe, La., and which has historically provided courtesy vehicles to the ULM staff, and is a consistent booster of WarHawk athletics....the billboard cost 12k to put up ;)

[chattownmocs]

The sign was sponsored by Hixon Ford, which is conveniently located in Monroe, La., and which has historically provided courtesy vehicles to the ULM staff, and is a consistent booster of WarHawk athletics....the billboard cost 12k to put up ;)

Yeah now that I see the little warhawk on the ULM logo I know you are correct. I just would never put it by Auburn to do something like that.

[eaglewraith]

I'm doubting that sign was put up by ULM or that it was even in the state of Louisiana. I'm guessing that sign was in the state of Alabama and somebody from Auburn put it up.

Yea it was definitely paid for by a ULM supporter. I think it was placed on an interstate they had to travel down for their bowl game.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Yea it was definitely paid for by a ULM supporter. I think it was placed on an interstate they had to travel down for their bowl game.

Alabama was playing in the the Independence Bowl which is here in Shreveport. I-20 runs through Shreveport, Monroe, Jackson, then into Alabama where it goes through Tuscaloosa...

To get to the Indy Bowl by bus, Alabama had to travel through Monroe, which prompted the sign being placed on the interstate.

There was a great joke making the rounds back then that went something like this:

"Q: Hey, have you heard that Alabama's gonna fly to Dallas, and then bus to Shreveport for the Indy Bowl?

A: No, why in the world would he do that?

Well, they were gonna take I-20 all the way, but Nick Saban got worried that they wouldn't be able to figure out how to get past Monroe."

[ASUMountaineer]

Why should he start doing that NOW?

What was it your said about "responding in kind." xlolx

[GaSouthern]

If I were to put a percentage right now on if I thought GaSouthern or App State were going to the Sun Belt it would be App State 30% Georgia Southern 10% and for them both to make the trek would be about 5% chance. Just my random opinion.

[MplsBison]

If UAB went 11-1 and was ranked nationally, would attendance and media attention increase? I believe it would. Would those "fans" stick around if UAB declined again? I would doubt it. Bandwagon fans aren't real fans and aren't what you want to build your program on.

I never said otherwise. I said they were going after casual fans. By their nature, casual fans stick around only so long as the team is hot. This is known and doesn't require definition.

I still fail to see how that could cause your confusion.

In either case, UAB or GA St, the metro team will pick up bandwagon, casual fans if they're doing well and perceived to be in the big leagues of college football by those casual fans. I've made my point and you apparently agree.

[asumike83]

I never said otherwise. I said they were going after casual fans. By their nature, casual fans stick around only so long as the team is hot. This is known and doesn't require definition.

I still fail to see how that could cause your confusion.

In either case, UAB or GA St, the metro team will pick up bandwagon, casual fans if they're doing well and perceived to be in the big leagues of college football by those casual fans. I've made my point and you apparently agree.

My concern would be that in football-crazed states like Georgia and Alabama, most folks that do not already have a rooting interest in an SEC/ACC school either have loyalty to their alma mater located elsewhere or are not that big of a college football fan to begin with.

There just aren't that many people who grow up a college football fan in Georgia or Alabama that are just looking for a team to root for. In this case, what we refer to as a casual fan is probably not much of a fan at all. The only real demographic I can think of where any substantial amount of college football fans would be up for grabs are those who root for schools in other parts of the country and would pick up a local team to root for as a secondary interest. I'm not sure there is enough of those to really make a dent in the market.

The primary focus for GA State should be getting their alumni and students as active as possible instead of worrying about trying to take casual fans from GT and UGA. I just don't think the results would be worth all the effort required.

[SpeedkingATL]

Appears to me that this is a great move for Ga State, gets them in the FBS door and they will grow and improve the product on the field with all the HS football talent in the greater Atlanta area. They will get a better recruit with FBS and more of it with the additional scholarships. The key for them is to get their alumni in the Atlanta area attracted to the product. The Bulldawgs own Georgia from a college sports prospective and will for the forseeable future.

I can remember seeing lots of UNC, Duke and NCSU swag worn on the App campus until the 3 Championships and the Michigan win and it's App alums and a few Boone locals that make up that fan base, not the casual fan. (and unfortunately many of those fans go back to the other teams during basketball season with the Apps not being competitive). Ga Southern has done the same thing and has a great fan following but not alot of them are casual fans, mostly alums and some folks near the campus in South GA. If Ga State can win their alumi back from primarily supporting the Dawgs (and maybe a very few Jacket fans),they can be very successful. When Lefty was coaching basketball there they sure filled the place.

Best of luck to them. At least until they get better they can get lots of big money away games with the power teams in the SEC and ACC that might not schedule them as an FCS.

[Apphole]

From GSU fans to MMB to your computer, the rumor mill spins...

http://www.gsufans.com/tsc/showthread.php?19717-GSU-Being-Proactive

"What do these institutions have in common?

Appalachian State
UNC-Charlotte
Georgia Southern
Georgia State
Jacksonville State
Liberty U.

Well, from what I've been told, representatives of all of these schools met together less than two weeks ago to discuss the possibility of forming a new FBS conference. The meeting was called by firms that have been hired by Jax State (Johnny Williams & Associates) and Liberty (Bill Carr & Associates).

On top of that, I also understand that Sam Baker actually placed a phone call to new Sun Belt Conference Commissioner Karl Benson the next day to let him know of our University's interest in becoming a member of the Sun Belt. Apparently the complexities and challenges of starting a new FBS conference (no auto bids in any sports for 5-7 years, no NCAA basketball tourney revenue, etc.) were more than some schools had anticipated.

The timing of Mr. Baker's call may have been made a little late as it now appears Georgia State will soon be announced as the next member of the SBC. But, the SBC plans to add a total of three new members over the next couple of months, so GSU may still have a shot of moving up into the FBS in this round of conference shifting. Benson wants to add Louisiana Tech and UTSA to the 'Belt, but both are currently in other FBS conferences and are waiting to see what happens with the Mountain West and CUSA merger/affiliation/SNAFU.

But they will not be able to wait until that abomination is finalized. The two conference's Presidents jumped the gun in saying the deal was almost finalized, but when the ADs and other administrators from the schools were finally brought into the loop they found almost 3 dozen obstacles that were deal breakers. Word is that IF the two conferences merge, it will take between 12 and 18 months to work out all the challenges, with NCAA basketball dollars and existing television contracts being the two largest hurdles to navigate.

Let's hope the MWC and CUSA drag things out, and that UTSA and La Tech sit on their hands. Then GSU may have a legitimate shot of moving up into the FBS as a member of the Sun Belt Conference. It will be good to re-establish rivalries with Troy, Middle Tennessee, Western Kentucky, and forge new relationships with the rest of the 'Belt. "

Not the first I've heard about such meetings. From reliable sources I might add.

[chattownmocs]

This whole conversation is really a moot point. What's going to happen after the dust settles is that all of these conferences who are left out of the expanded BCS conferences are going to realize that they would be much better off combining with the top of FCS and forming a new playoff division. As a matter of fact, I think they are already beginning to see that.

[MplsBison]

This whole conversation is really a moot point. What's going to happen after the dust settles is that all of these conferences who are left out of the expanded BCS conferences are going to realize that they would be much better off combining with the top of FCS and forming a new playoff division. As a matter of fact, I think they are already beginning to see that.

With NDSU having won the whole FCS tournament, I can reasonably say "been there, done that".

I honestly believe NDSU (and other like status programs in FCS and lower end FBS) will be better off financially and gain more publicity from playing in bowl games than participating in a lowly-marketed, scoffed at by the national media, minor league NCAA playoff.

Bring on the new (sub-) division as a merger of top FCS and lower FBS, which will fill in the lower end bowl games.

[chattownmocs]

With NDSU having won the whole FCS tournament, I can reasonably say "been there, done that".

I honestly believe NDSU (and other like status programs in FCS and lower end FBS) will be better off financially and gain more publicity from playing in bowl games than participating in a lowly-marketed, scoffed at by the national media, minor league NCAA playoff.

You wouldn't make a bowl game and neither would most of the other bottom feeders at the FBS level. As far as money goes, assuming you actually make a bowl game, you then split the revenue throughout your conference and you end up making next to nothing. The difference between the lower levels of FBS and upper levels of FCS when it comes to money is negligible as is.

[gasoutherneagle]

I just can't wrap my head around the fact that a program that isn't even close to being competitive in FCS thinks they are gonna do anything but FAIL MISERABLY in FBS. I don't give a crap if the school is in downtown Manhattan with a stadium in Central Park... IF YOU CAN'T WIN FOOTBALL GAMES NO ONE WATCHES!!! Name me ONE... ONE GODDAM... school with no real campus that has had success in football! No stadium, no buildings of their own, nothing but a pocket full of leases.

YOU IDIOTS ARE SO HYPED UP ON THE KOOL AID YOU CAN'T SEE PAST THE FOG OF COMMUTER-COLLEGE-DONE-GOOD BULLSH--!

It is gonna be so freakin' awesome to watch y'all fall flat on your faces on the FBS stage and be the first mover-up to DISCONTINUE football.

[fc97]

south florida was an fcs failure
florida international was an fcs failure
buffalo was an fcs failure

all those schools turned it around and they are all in major population centers. the schools that have not turned it around are not.

[cbarrier90]

south florida was an fcs failure
florida international was an fcs failure
buffalo was an fcs failure

all those schools turned it around and they are all in major population centers. the schools that have not turned it around are not.

If by "turning it around" you mean "had several mediocre years before striking gold with a few mid-level bowl games and (in Buffalo's case) a MAC championship before sinking back into mediocrity" then yeah, they turned it around.

USF is the only one of those three to ever experience success on a national stage. They rose up all the way to #2 in the country in 2006, had games on primetime TV, but could ultimately never take the next step to being a national contender in the Big East. A few years of disappointments and the coach who had been with their program since its infancy gets canned. Now with Skip Holtz running the show, they're just another average Big East team.

[Apphole]

If by "turning it around" you mean "had several mediocre years before striking gold with a few mid-level bowl games and (in Buffalo's case) a MAC championship before sinking back into mediocrity" then yeah, they turned it around.

USF is the only one of those three to ever experience success on a national stage. They rose up all the way to #2 in the country in 2006, had games on primetime TV, but could ultimately never take the next step to being a national contender in the Big East. A few years of disappointments and the coach who had been with their program since its infancy gets canned. Now with Skip Holtz running the show, they're just another average Big East team.

Not to mention USF is in Florida: arguably the best recruiting ground in the country.

Anyway, I don't see these examples as being very pertinent to the teams on the move. People on here love to bring up Marshal as some sort of epic FBS transfer failure, when in reality they weren't. They dominated the MAC before they went CUSA and became mediocre. Even in their current mediocrity, the FBS is still a better fit for them. Do you think they want to switch back and become another App or Montana? Of course not.

Just because a team doesn't immediately rise to a BCS powerhouse status, doesn't mean they belong in the FCS. It's about linking up with like-minded institutions.

[TheRevSFA]

south florida was an fcs failure
florida international was an fcs failure
buffalo was an fcs failure

all those schools turned it around and they are all in major population centers. the schools that have not turned it around are not.

USF is the only example that works. While FIU might be turning it around, FAU isn't.

[MplsBison]

You wouldn't make a bowl game and neither would most of the other bottom feeders at the FBS level. As far as money goes, assuming you actually make a bowl game, you then split the revenue throughout your conference and you end up making next to nothing. The difference between the lower levels of FBS and upper levels of FCS when it comes to money is negligible as is.

Why not? Didn't 5 MAC teams and 3 Sun Belt teams make bowl games last year? As long as any MAC or Sun Belt team has comparable facilities and pays comparable coaching salaries as the top schools in the league, then any of them have an equal potential of winning the conference. All it really takes a good coach who can recruit decent players to come into the program.

You see it all the time, especially in the MAC. Some great coach pops into a program and within 2-3 years they're winning the conference when they were down and out before. I'm thinking of Hoke at Ball St or what's his name at Miami Ohio a couple seasons ago (got fired from Pittsburgh).


As long as you can attract a coach like that, which why wouldn't you be able to with good facilities and coaching salaries, then you're in the game.

[MplsBison]

My concern would be that in football-crazed states like Georgia and Alabama, most folks that do not already have a rooting interest in an SEC/ACC school either have loyalty to their alma mater located elsewhere or are not that big of a college football fan to begin with.

There just aren't that many people who grow up a college football fan in Georgia or Alabama that are just looking for a team to root for. In this case, what we refer to as a casual fan is probably not much of a fan at all. The only real demographic I can think of where any substantial amount of college football fans would be up for grabs are those who root for schools in other parts of the country and would pick up a local team to root for as a secondary interest. I'm not sure there is enough of those to really make a dent in the market.

The primary focus for GA State should be getting their alumni and students as active as possible instead of worrying about trying to take casual fans from GT and UGA. I just don't think the results would be worth all the effort required.

Maybe they're not all that big of fans, but big enough of a fan to buy a ticket to the game or watch on TV. That's what counts.

If their own alumni are already aligned with UGA or GT, then it won't do much good trying to win them over just because they've take some classes at GSU.

[fc97]

that's what i mean exactly

compared to other move ups arkansas state, akron, florica atlantic, ull, ulm, troy state, mtsu, western kentucky, north texas, lou tech, nevada, idaho

boise and marshall are the only examples of small market teams that have done well from the fcs area

[dbackjon]

Why not? Didn't 5 MAC teams and 3 Sun Belt teams make bowl games last year? As long as any MAC or Sun Belt team has comparable facilities and pays comparable coaching salaries as the top schools in the league, then any of them have an equal potential of winning the conference. All it really takes a good coach who can recruit decent players to come into the program.

You see it all the time, especially in the MAC. Some great coach pops into a program and within 2-3 years they're winning the conference when they were down and out before. I'm thinking of Hoke at Ball St or what's his name at Miami Ohio a couple seasons ago (got fired from Pittsburgh).


As long as you can attract a coach like that, which why wouldn't you be able to with good facilities and coaching salaries, then you're in the game.


You do realize that for the lower level teams, bowl games lose the teams hundreds of thousands of dollars

[WUTNDITWAA]

You do realize that for the lower level teams, bowl games lose the teams hundreds of thousands of dollars

As compared to the cash cow that is the FCS Playoffs.

[MplsBison]

You do realize that for the lower level teams, bowl games lose the teams hundreds of thousands of dollars

The NCAA took hundreds of thousands of dollars from NDSU for the games they hosted in the playoffs last year.

Plus being in FBS gets you an extra home game every year due to the longer regular season.

[PaladinFan]

You do realize that for the lower level teams, bowl games lose the teams hundreds of thousands of dollars

Even the big games. Didn't UConn lose money playing in the Fiesta Bowl?

[MplsBison]

Even the big games. Didn't UConn lose money playing in the Fiesta Bowl?

Is there any doubt, at the end of the day that Arkansas St pulled in more revenue from the 2011 football season than NDSU did - including both regular season and post season?

Please - someone speak up if they have doubts.

Thanks

[chattownmocs]

Is there any doubt, at the end of the day that Arkansas St pulled in more revenue from the 2011 football season than NDSU did - including both regular season and post season?

Please - someone speak up if they have doubts.

Thanks

Well the gap is only going to continue to grow. That was really the point. Not that currently the bottom teams in FBS would be better off joining the top of FCS and creating a new playoff division. In the past about half of the teams in FBS were outside of the BCS leagues. Thnat number is rapidly shrinking and it will certainly have an impact.

Thanks

[DFW HOYA]

Is there any doubt, at the end of the day that Arkansas St pulled in more revenue from the 2011 football season than NDSU did - including both regular season and post season?

Only in one respect--according to NCAA reports, NDSU had more reported total attendance over nine home games (incl. playoffs) than ASU had with six home games:

ND State: 163,284 (18,142 per game)
Ark. State: 127,541 (21,257 per game)

Can't say how many were paid, student, comp, etc., but at least it's a point of discussion.

[dbackjon]

Is there any doubt, at the end of the day that Arkansas St pulled in more revenue from the 2011 football season than NDSU did - including both regular season and post season?

Please - someone speak up if they have doubts.

Thanks

And in 2010...

Arkansas State had 5 home games - 86K total attendance
North Dakota State had 7 home games - 117K total attendance

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2011/Attendance.pdf

ASU played two money games, NDSU one.

Probably pretty dang close

[FormerPokeCenter]

And in 2010...

Arkansas State had 5 home games - 86K total attendance
North Dakota State had 7 home games - 117K total attendance

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2011/Attendance.pdf

ASU played two money games, NDSU one.

Probably pretty dang close

The reported attendance figures at Sunbelt schools are fabricated from wholecloth...so....Georgia State should fit right in...

One year, to make the numbers they needed for NCAA compliance, ULM played Arkansas at War Memorial Stadium in Little Rock and Arkansas let ULM count it as a "HOME" game....

Another year, the Sunbelt had scheduling issues, so they let games against FCS foes count as CONFERENCE games, but I digress...

I wouldn't believe any attendance stat coming from anywhere in the 'Belt....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Let's analyze.

NDSU played one body-bag game (which they won). For the sake of argument say that was a $300,000 payout that was a bus trip to a Big Ten school.

Arkansas State played two body-bag games (which they both lost handily). For the sake of argument say they were $500,000 payouts apiece, because, as a Sun Belt team, they get more. However, they flew to Illinois and Virginia Tech for both games. Let's say, charitably, they the trips cost $150,000 apiece. That leaves $700,000. Then, they paid Central Arkansas to be their home opener. Let's say that was a $200,000 guarantee. We're already down to clearing $500,000 vs. $300,000.

Arkansas State won the GoDaddy.com bowl. The payout was $750,000... partially paid by a team fee that Arkansas State contributes to each year. Let's say that's $100,000 (not an unreasonable assumption). They then had to fly a retainer out to the game, buy minimum tickets, probably, and all sorts of other stuff. Did they even profit on the deal at all? It's debatable. Many, many smaller bowl teams lose money on their bowls.

Arkansas State had six home games (including Memphis of C-USA); NDSU had nine, including playoffs.

Arkansas State averaged 21,257 fans per game for a grand total of 127,541 paying fans. NDSU averaged 18,143 fans per game for a grand total of 163,284 paying fans. Assuming no book-cooking is going on, at $10 per head (a conservative number), that's about $400,000 more on the side of NDSU on pure attendance, and possibly more.

Oh yeah. NDSU paid $3.5 million for their football scholarships, Arkansas State $4 million.

So Arkansas State, in arguably their best season in memory, at best made a modest profit, probably no more than $200,000, over the national-champion Bison. And they paid more than $600,000 a year for the privilege. xlolx

[MplsBison]

And in 2010...

Arkansas State had 5 home games - 86K total attendance
North Dakota State had 7 home games - 117K total attendance

http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2011/Attendance.pdf

ASU played two money games, NDSU one.

Probably pretty dang close

But consider two things:

1) revenue from hosting NCAA playoff games is minimal, if any. NCAA takes a big chunk of that money. Certainly less than a regular season game
2) "Money games" for FBS schools often result in much larger guarantees paid out. I think we're talking about $1 million vs. $300k-400k.


So let's even say that the schools came out the same, after you consider ASU had more expenses. Wouldn't you rather be in the major leagues if the money is the same?!

Better TV, better publicity, better perception. Sign me up.

[MplsBison]

Only in one respect--according to NCAA reports, NDSU had more reported total attendance over nine home games (incl. playoffs) than ASU had with six home games:

ND State: 163,284 (18,142 per game)
Ark. State: 127,541 (21,257 per game)

Can't say how many were paid, student, comp, etc., but at least it's a point of discussion.

NCAA takes money from playoff games. Both teams had 6 home games, in my book.

[MplsBison]

Let's analyze.

NDSU played one body-bag game (which they won). For the sake of argument say that was a $300,000 payout that was a bus trip to a Big Ten school.

Arkansas State played two body-bag games (which they both lost handily). For the sake of argument say they were $500,000 payouts apiece, because, as a Sun Belt team, they get more. However, they flew to Illinois and Virginia Tech for both games. Let's say, charitably, they the trips cost $150,000 apiece. That leaves $700,000. Then, they paid Central Arkansas to be their home opener. Let's say that was a $200,000 guarantee. We're already down to clearing $500,000 vs. $300,000.

Arkansas State won the GoDaddy.com bowl. The payout was $750,000... partially paid by a team fee that Arkansas State contributes to each year. Let's say that's $100,000 (not an unreasonable assumption). They then had to fly a retainer out to the game, buy minimum tickets, probably, and all sorts of other stuff. Did they even profit on the deal at all? It's debatable. Many, many smaller bowl teams lose money on their bowls.

Arkansas State had six home games (including Memphis of C-USA); NDSU had nine, including playoffs.

Arkansas State averaged 21,257 fans per game for a grand total of 127,541 paying fans. NDSU averaged 18,143 fans per game for a grand total of 163,284 paying fans. Assuming no book-cooking is going on, at $10 per head (a conservative number), that's about $400,000 more on the side of NDSU on pure attendance, and possibly more.

Oh yeah. NDSU paid $3.5 million for their football scholarships, Arkansas State $4 million.

So Arkansas State, in arguably their best season in memory, at best made a modest profit, probably no more than $200,000, over the national-champion Bison. And they paid more than $600,000 a year for the privilege. xlolx

I've heard lower level FBS teams can get $1million from BCS conf schools. I think you're low there. Definitely playing at big time public schools like Oregon and Illinois, those should've been big pay days.


You don't know the revenue from ticket sales because you have not factored in things like premium ticket costs, concessions (which could be much more significant if Ark St allows alcohol sales in the stadium, as NDSU does not), how many free or reduced priced tickets were available (students, seniors, whatever). Also consider booster club and donations that must be made to them in order to purchase premium tickets.

Ark St probably is cheaper on scholarship per player due to being able to recruit mostly in-region, which I assume gets cheaper tuition than standard non-resident.


You made a nice try, but I'd bet your numbers are not as close as you'd like to brag. All the same -- as I said above, for the same net money, why wouldn't you want to be in the big leagues? I guess if you know your school can't physically muster enough support to do it, then yeah, I can understand why you'd be bitter about that as a fan of a small school.

[TheRevSFA]

I've heard lower level FBS teams can get $1million from BCS conf schools. I think you're low there. Definitely playing at big time public schools like Oregon and Illinois, those should've been big pay days.


You don't know the revenue from ticket sales because we have not factored in things like premium ticket costs, concessions, how many free or reduced priced tickets were available (students, seniors, whatever). You're making way too many assumptions. there.

Ark St probably is cheaper on scholarship per player due to being able to recruit mostly in-region, which I assume gets cheaper tuition than standard non-resident.


You made a nice try, but I'd bet your numbers are no-where close. All the same -- as I said above, for the same net money, why wouldn't you want to be in the big leagues? I guess if you know your school can't physically muster enough support to do it, then yeah, I can understand why you'd be bitter about that as a fan of a small school.

Coming from the King of Assumptions, he should take that as a compliment.

[dbackjon]

I've heard lower level FBS teams can get $1million from BCS conf schools. I think you're low there. Definitely playing at big time public schools like Oregon and Illinois, those should've been big pay days.


You don't know the revenue from ticket sales because you have not factored in things like premium ticket costs, concessions (which could be much more significant if Ark St allows alcohol sales in the stadium, as NDSU does not), how many free or reduced priced tickets were available (students, seniors, whatever). Also consider booster club and donations that must be made to them in order to purchase premium tickets.

Ark St probably is cheaper on scholarship per player due to being able to recruit mostly in-region, which I assume gets cheaper tuition than standard non-resident.


You made a nice try, but I'd bet your numbers are no-where close. All the same -- as I said above, for the same net money, why wouldn't you want to be in the big leagues? I guess if you know your school can't physically muster enough support to do it, then yeah, I can understand why you'd be bitter about that as a fan of a small school.


Son, the SunBelch is no where close to the Big Leagues

[MplsBison]

Son, the SunBelch is no where close to the Big Leagues

FBS is FBS. xcoffeex

[TheRevSFA]

Even the big games. Didn't UConn lose money playing in the Fiesta Bowl?

UConn lost something like 1.8 million

[TheRevSFA]

FBS is FBS. xcoffeex

It's like a SAT question. If FBS is FBS, and BCS is BCS, then is FBS always BCS? The answer of course is..no

[MplsBison]

UConn lost something like 1.8 million

NDSU would give their collective left arm for the ability to pay 1.8 million and play in the Fiesta bowl.

More publicity, increased perception and exposure for the school than 10 years of FCS national championships combined.

[TheRevSFA]

NDSU would give their collective left arm for the ability to pay 1.8 million and play in the Fiesta bowl.

More publicity, increased perception and exposure for the school than 10 years of FCS combined.

UConn gets their publicity from their basketball program. You know, that sport in which you use an orange ball? Yes? No?

BTW they followed up that stunning Fiesta Bowl raping by Oklahoma with a lackluster 5-7 season

[MplsBison]

UConn gets their publicity from their basketball program. You know, that sport in which you use an orange ball? Yes? No?

BTW they followed up that stunning Fiesta Bowl raping by Oklahoma with a lackluster 5-7 season

Oh.

Well I know that....NDSU would give their collective left arm for the ability to pay 1.8 million and play in the Fiesta bowl.

More publicity, increased perception and exposure for the school than 10 years of FCS national championships combined.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NDSU would give their collective left arm for the ability to pay 1.8 million and play in the Fiesta bowl.

They would be. Almost literally.

[TheRevSFA]

Oh.

Well I know that....NDSU would give their collective left arm for the ability to pay 1.8 million and play in the Fiesta bowl.
More publicity, increased perception and exposure for the school than 10 years of FCS national championships combined.

Lakes would probably find a way to foot that bill. You guys could travel to Arizona and get your asses handed to you. I'm sure the memory of that game would be like "Hey, do you remember when those moose ****ers from NDSU tried to play Oklahoma and got destroyed 100-0" Great publicity that is.

[Apphole]

It's like a SAT question. If FBS is FBS, and BCS is BCS, then is FBS always BCS? The answer of course is..no

Square and rectangle relationship

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've heard lower level FBS teams can get $1million from BCS conf schools. I think you're low there. Definitely playing at big time public schools like Oregon and Illinois, those should've been big pay days.

http://www.journalstandard.com/sports/x1413004236/Illinois-vs-Arkansas-State-preview?zc_p=1


Did you know?: The Illini paid Arkansas State $850,000 to play in Memorial Stadium, the most ever in a guarantee game by Illinois.

As for Virginia Tech, a comparable opponent payout in 2010...

http://www.mytimesdispatch.com/index.php/sports/comments/some_information_on_guarantee_game_pay-outs/8570/


Western Michigan is getting $500,000 in 2010.

So rather than $1,000,000 in guarantee money, it's closer to $1.4 million.... which is still eaten up by flights... and other expenses.

[MplsBison]

http://www.journalstandard.com/sports/x1413004236/Illinois-vs-Arkansas-State-preview?zc_p=1



As for Virginia Tech, a comparable opponent payout in 2010...

http://www.mytimesdispatch.com/index.php/sports/comments/some_information_on_guarantee_game_pay-outs/8570/



So rather than $1,000,000 in guarantee money, it's closer to $1.4 million.... which is still eaten up by flights... and other expenses.

No it's not. $100k per trip. $75k for a charter plane and $25k for hotel, food and buses. And that's assuming they didn't fly commercial - which is probably correct. I don't know of any football program that takes their team seriously and flies commercial.


Also consider conference games. You think the MVFC reimburses NDSU for choosing to take a charter plan to Illinois instead of a 12 hour bus ride (or whatever it would be)? I doubt highly that Ark St came out ahead of NDSU on travel expenses.

Next.

[eaglewraith]

No it's not. $100k per trip. $75k for a charter plane and $25k for hotel, food and buses. And that's assuming they didn't fly commercial - which is probably correct. I don't know of any football program that takes their team seriously and flies commercial.


Also consider conference games. You think the MVFC reimburses NDSU for choosing to take a charter plan to Illinois instead of a 12 hour bus ride (or whatever it would be)? I doubt highly that Ark St came out ahead of NDSU on travel expenses.

Next.

Did you put in an FOIA request or go diving through public records to get the exact costs of the travel party for Arkansas State?

If you didn't, then how the **** do you know what their expenses are?

[DFW HOYA]

Bottom line, none of these schools are making much on football. Nor will Georgia State.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bottom line, none of these schools are making much on football. Nor will Georgia State.

Looking at the math, not many do. So is the profit and attendance the motivation for intercollegiate varsity football? The hundreds of schools who play football whose athletic programs do not turn a profit must be nuts, huh? Why play football? Let's all take the Swarthmore option.... They are well-positioned on the US News and World Report rankings.

To reduce football to some tool for revenue enhancement is a huge act of disrespect to the thousands of men who play college football anywhere, but it does give the BCS conferences' world view a ridiculous amount of validation.

[PaladinFan]

Looking at the math, not many do. So is the profit and attendance the motivation for intercollegiate varsity football? The hundreds of schools who play football whose athletic programs do not turn a profit must be nuts, huh? Why play football? Let's all take the Swarthmore option.... They are well-positioned on the US News and World Report rankings.

To reduce football to some tool for revenue enhancement is a huge act of disrespect to the thousands of men who play college football anywhere, but it does give the BCS conferences' world view a ridiculous amount of validation.

To me, the desire to move to the FBS is 90% pride and 10% everything else.

This is just my opinion, but the majority of the folks who constantly talk about going to the FBS are associated with universities that do not hold top billing in their states. I think they have this chip on their shoulder about being considered a second class citizen when it comes to athletics talk at the watercooler at work.

[Saint3333]

For some Paladin that may be true, but that is a gross generalization. Sports should be about competetion and challenging yourself. Some of those programs that are looking at the FBS aren't challenged week in and week out. Before anyone gets upset, yes those programs are challenged by their current conference members.

None of the FCS programs hold top billing in their states except the Ivies and I personally don't except an invite to CUSA, MAC, or Sun Belt to put ASU on par with ACC/SEC programs at the water cooler.

[MplsBison]

Bottom line, none of these schools are making much on football. Nor will Georgia State.

Right back to my main point: if you come out the same on money, and your school is actually capable of making the move -- why wouldn't you want to be in the major leagues?

Again, I realize that 95% of FCS schools are just too small to ever have that option and therefore their fans are jealous and bitter.

[MplsBison]

Looking at the math, not many do. So is the profit and attendance the motivation for intercollegiate varsity football? The hundreds of schools who play football whose athletic programs do not turn a profit must be nuts, huh? Why play football? Let's all take the Swarthmore option.... They are well-positioned on the US News and World Report rankings.

To reduce football to some tool for revenue enhancement is a huge act of disrespect to the thousands of men who play college football anywhere, but it does give the BCS conferences' world view a ridiculous amount of validation.

Nothing wrong with DIII football. Also nothing wrong with DI football.

Make your choice and live with it.

[PaladinFan]

For some Paladin that may be true, but that is a gross generalization. Sports should be about competetion and challenging yourself. Some of those programs that are looking at the FBS aren't challenged week in and week out. Before anyone gets upset, yes those programs are challenged by their current conference members.

None of the FCS programs hold top billing in their states except the Ivies and I personally don't except an invite to CUSA, MAC, or Sun Belt to put ASU on par with ACC/SEC programs at the water cooler.

I disagree that the only FCS programs with top billing are the Ivies. The first names that come to mind are Montana and Delaware. For whatever reason, I just do not feel like I hear the constant din of FBS talk from those programs, or at least not nearly to the extent I hear it from the folks in the deep south.

I don't disagree with you that schools should be challenged, but if they are challenged in conference, is that not enough? I mean, FSU isn't challenged by playing Murray State and Savannah State, yet you would not say their program isn't being challenged.

I see a lot of FCS schools that draw parallels to the low level FBS schools. But I am also of the impression that those schools have no business playing FBS football.

[chattownmocs]

It's really pretty simple. The lower level FBS programs are far closer to the upper level of FCS than they are the upper level of FBS. In revenue, in performance etc. There is no reason why they should be where they are now and especially not in the future with conference expansion. It is time to form a new playoff division combining the top of FCS with the bottom of FBS.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Looking at the math, not many do. So is the profit and attendance the motivation for intercollegiate varsity football? The hundreds of schools who play football whose athletic programs do not turn a profit must be nuts, huh? Why play football? Let's all take the Swarthmore option.... They are well-positioned on the US News and World Report rankings.

To reduce football to some tool for revenue enhancement is a huge act of disrespect to the thousands of men who play college football anywhere, but it does give the BCS conferences' world view a ridiculous amount of validation.

Ironically, I give a lot of "credit" for this fiction to none other than president Jon Silber, my bete noire that pulled the plug on football at BU. He's the one who, for at least a decade, maybe more, made the argument that unless a program is "revenue producing" it shouldn't be there. Of course, his analysis started and ended at football, and was a self-serving argument to do one thing at BU - kill football - but unfortunately it's been an argument that has thrived on both the "kill football" and the "big money" sides of the fence. I'm continuously exposing the fiction that FBS football is "revenue-producing" (no non-BCS FBS program is a revenue producer) and that FCS football should be measured by some sort of "revenue-producing" yardstick.

The latest president to be swayed by the Silber idiocy is Hofstra's, Stuart Rabinowitz, who used the argument that it was a revenue-loss in his argument for killing football. Like Silber, his argument began and ended at football, and it seemed like one of the key reasons he did it was to angle for an A-10 invite. How's that working out for him, I wonder?

[Saint3333]

I disagree that the only FCS programs with top billing are the Ivies. The first names that come to mind are Montana and Delaware. For whatever reason, I just do not feel like I hear the constant din of FBS talk from those programs, or at least not nearly to the extent I hear it from the folks in the deep south.

I don't disagree with you that schools should be challenged, but if they are challenged in conference, is that not enough? I mean, FSU isn't challenged by playing Murray State and Savannah State, yet you would not say their program isn't being challenged.

I see a lot of FCS schools that draw parallels to the low level FBS schools. But I am also of the impression that those schools have no business playing FBS football.

There are plenty of Montana fans that would like to try FBS, go check out their message board (egriz). There are more options (and people for that matter) in the south.

I can agree with your last point and, gulp, chattowns point. The bottom 1/4th of the FBS programs are closer to the top 1/4th of FCS programs than they are to the BCS programs. I wouldn't mind seeing a three tier division one setup.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I wouldn't mind seeing a three tier division one setup.

Hmmm......

The BCS: Bowl Championship Series
The MBS: Meaningless Bowl Series
The OTFCS: On The Field Championship Series

I like it....

[PaladinFan]

There are plenty of Montana fans that would like to try FBS, go check out their message board (egriz). There are more options (and people for that matter) in the south.

I can agree with your last point and, gulp, chattowns point. The bottom 1/4th of the FBS programs are closer to the top 1/4th of FCS programs than they are to the BCS programs. I wouldn't mind seeing a three tier division one setup.

That is, in my opinion, the best of all worlds

In reality, I'd like to see a subdivision of all of the big conferences duke it out every week.

Beneath that, I'd like to see a strong subdivision made up of the competitive FCS schools plus the have nots in the FBS. That would be, I think, some very compelling football and would rekindle a lot of natural geographic rivalries.

Below that, the havenots of the FCS playing D-II schools.

[MplsBison]

It's really pretty simple. The lower level FBS programs are far closer to the upper level of FCS than they are the upper level of FBS. In revenue, in performance etc. There is no reason why they should be where they are now and especially not in the future with conference expansion. It is time to form a new playoff division combining the top of FCS with the bottom of FBS.

Of course they should be where they are now. Their schools made the financial commitment to the team that your school either can't or won't.

They deserve the spoils of being in said higher division: more exposure and a better post-season.


If there is to be a new (sub) division created for top FCS teams and lower FBS teams, my hope is that the teams of this sub-division can qualify for bowl games and opt out of any playoff for the division, if there is one. NDSU has been there, done that as far as the FCS playoffs are concerned. They're really no different than the DII playoffs, in everyone's minds except fans of those FCS teams. FCS is DII with more scholarships.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Of course they should be where they are now. Their schools made the financial commitment to the team that your school either can't or won't.

They deserve the spoils of being in said higher division: more exposure and a better post-season.


If there is to be a new (sub) division created for top FCS teams and lower FBS teams, my hope is that the teams of this sub-division can qualify for bowl games and opt out of any playoff for the division, if there is one. NDSU has been there, done that as far as the FCS playoffs are concerned. They're really no different than the DII playoffs, in everyone's minds except fans of those FCS teams. FCS is DII with more scholarships.

FBS is just FCS with more scholarships and no chance to win a NC except for two teams.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

FBS is just FCS with more scholarships and no chance to win a NC except for two teams.

Soon to be four! Wow!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Soon to be four! Wow!

Yeah and his silly statement is even worse off since they are starting to mimic the FCS/D2 and every other division in every other sport.

[chattownmocs]

Of course they should be where they are now. Their schools made the financial commitment to the team that your school either can't or won't.

In Many cases, WRONG

They deserve the spoils of being in said higher division: more exposure and a better post-season.

They don't get much more exposure, their postseason is vastly inferior.

If there is to be a new (sub) division created for top FCS teams and lower FBS teams, my hope is that the teams of this sub-division can qualify for bowl games and opt out of any playoff for the division Bowl games are an absolute joke. if there is one. NDSU has been there, done that as far as the FCS playoffs are concerned. They're really no different than the DII playoffs, in everyone's minds except fans of those FCS teams. FCS is DII with more scholarships. Do you think Wyoming or Buffalo are any different in "everyone's" minds, than App State, Georgia Southern or Montana. Let me give you a hint, no fans make a distinction.

.

[cbarrier90]

Of course they should be where they are now. Their schools made the financial commitment to the team that your school either can't or won't.

They deserve the spoils of being in said higher division: more exposure and a better post-season.


If there is to be a new (sub) division created for top FCS teams and lower FBS teams, my hope is that the teams of this sub-division can qualify for bowl games and opt out of any playoff for the division, if there is one. NDSU has been there, done that as far as the FCS playoffs are concerned. They're really no different than the DII playoffs, in everyone's minds except fans of those FCS teams. FCS is DII with more scholarships.

Never thought I'd say this, but chattown made some excellent points regarding this^ post.

True, the school made the financial commitment to expand not only their football program, but entire athletics department in the move to FBS, but that doesn't mean that it's automatically the "right" thing to do. LFN just posted a great article regarding this misguided move "up" mentality.

Those "spoils" of being in said subdivision are rarely handed out to those in non-AQ conferences and they're certainly not handed down to the Sun Belt, which is widely regarded as the worst FBS conference. The whole idea with conference realignment is to keep the "spoils" in the hands of those in the BCS. The result is everyone scrambling around hoping to get the scraps from the feast when all is said and done.

I disagree with Chattown in that I find value in the bowl games unrelated to the National Championship, however, all the value placed in those games is, in my opinion, off the field.

True, FCS may not be more than DII in many minds, but I'll take the overall quality of the NDSU-GSU game over a weeknight game between Arkansas State and Middle Tennessee. The FCS has quite often outdone the lower-tier FBS conferences when it comes to the quality of football on TV (see: any game played at Montana, NDSU, ASU, GSU, etc,) it just doesn't get the exposure of those lower-tier conferences because the lower-tier conferences have the TV contracts.

The only two non-BCS conferences that have made the "progress" from FCS like you're suggesting is C-USA and the MWC. When it comes to MAC and Sun Belt football, however, you'll be hard-pressed to find any advantage over the FCS if you take away the label. They'll say their FBS, but Georgia State is nowhere close to surpassing the strength of the consistent programs of the FCS.

[unknown3]

When it comes to MAC and Sun Belt football, however, you'll be hard-pressed to find any advantage over the FCS if you take away the label.

People here really still believe this huh?

[FormerPokeCenter]

People here really still believe this huh?

It's been dispositively proven on the field....Only a fool would believe otherwise....

[cbarrier90]

People here really still believe this huh?

You're really going to tell me a team that lost to Lambuth two years ago, a school that no longer exists, is now a better program than Montana, GSU, ASU, NDSU, all because they moved up to the SUN BELT?

[Apphole]

People here really still believe this huh?

So what year did you graduate from UNCC?

[Skjellyfetti]

Anyone bored and want to look this up?

What's the Sun Belt's record vs. the FCS over the last 5 years or so?

[Tuscon]

You're really going to tell me a team that lost to Lambuth two years ago, a school that no longer exists, is now a better program than Montana, GSU, ASU, NDSU, all because they moved up to the SUN BELT?

We're most definitely not a BETTER team on the field right now. No one is saying that. However, the potential of our team just went beyond the schools listed. We have absolutely given ourselves a much better shot at being better than the programs mentioned. Better recruits, better attendance, more exposure. People scoff at Tuesday/Thursday ESPN games, but the SoCon is excited about their deal with who? GPTV? Get over it, guys.

[realgsu]

We're most definitely not a BETTER team on the field right now. No one is saying that. However, the potential of our team just went beyond the schools listed. We have absolutely given ourselves a much better shot at being better than the programs mentioned. Better recruits, better attendance, more exposure. People scoff at Tuesday/Thursday ESPN games, but the SoCon is excited about their deal with who? GPTV? Get over it, guys.

Hey when Lacrosse is your revenue producing sport what do you expect?

[Tuscon]

Anyone bored and want to look this up?

What's the Sun Belt's record vs. the FCS over the last 5 years or so?

I am and did.

Total Record(Including WKU even though they weren't officially Sun Belt in 2007/2008) is 14 - 3. If we take out WKU's 2007/2008 records that is 9 - 3. And if you take out WKU altogether to account for maybe some FBS growing pains the record goes to 9 - 1.

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

I am and did.

Total Record(Including WKU even though they weren't officially Sun Belt in 2007/2008) is 14 - 3. If we take out WKU's 2007/2008 records that is 9 - 3. And if you take out WKU altogether to account for maybe some FBS growing pains the record goes to 9 - 1.

Many of those wins are against SWAC and lower-tier OVC teams. And why is it you get to excuse WKU's thumping by Indy State as "growing pains"? They were 7-1 in the Sun Belt.

Here's the list of FCS wins over SBC teams...

2001 - Jacksonville State (5-6) defeats Arkansas State (2-9) 31-28
2001 - Nicholls State (3-8) defeats Arkansas State (2-9) 24-22
2001 - Sam Houston State (10-3) defeats ULM (2-9) 20-9
2002 – McNeese State (13-2) defeats ULM (3-9) 24-19
2003 – Stephen F. Austin (7-4) defeats ULM (1-11) 23-21
2003 – Northwestern State (6-6) defeats ULM (1-11) 14-10
2005 – Northwestern State (5-5) defeats ULM (5-6 , Sun Belt Conference Co-champs)
2007 – Western Kentucky (7-5) beats Middle Tennessee State (5-7) 20-17
2007 - McNeese State (11-1) defeats ULL(3-9) 38-17
2011 – Indiana State (6-5) beats Western Kentucky (7-5, second place SBC team) 44-16

Certainly the losses look less impressive for the SBC as time goes on.

[Tuscon]

Just one win without WKU? Try 9....

2001 - Jacksonville State (5-6) defeats Arkansas State (2-9) 31-28
2001 - Nicholls State (3-8) defeats Arkansas State (2-9) 24-22
2001 - Sam Houston State (10-3) defeats ULM (2-9) 20-9
2002 – McNeese State (13-2) defeats ULM (3-9) 24-19
2003 – Stephen F. Austin (7-4) defeats ULM (1-11) 23-21
2003 – Northwestern State (6-6) defeats ULM (1-11) 14-10
2005 – Northwestern State (5-5) defeats ULM (5-6 , Sun Belt Conference Co-champs)
2007 – Western Kentucky (7-5) beats Middle Tennessee State (5-7) 20-17
2007 - McNeese State (11-1) defeats ULL(3-9) 38-17
2011 – Indiana State (6-5) beats Western Kentucky (7-5, second place SBC team) 44-16

And the losses generally look less impressive for the Sun Belt as the years go on.

Now the SBC probably does have a winning record against the FCS, but many of the games they play are against SWAC and weak OVC teams. Don't feel like looking up the SLC's losses against the SBC, but the record is just a little over 0.500.

I looked at the last 5 years. Just like was mentioned in the post I responded to. I didn't include WKU over MTSU, oversight on my part I guess. My b. So we have McNeese State over ULL, which I included. And we have Indiana State over Kentucky, which I included. You forgot one if we are including WKU as well. They lost to Central Arkansas in 2009. Did you read any of my post?

Over the last 5 years, current Sun Belt teams are a combined 14 - 3 against FCS opponents.

Is that more clear?

[GSU EAGLES]

I looked at the last 5 years. Just like was mentioned in the post I responded to. I didn't include WKU over MTSU, oversight on my part I guess. My b. So we have McNeese State over ULL, which I included. And we have Indiana State over Kentucky, which I included. You forgot one if we are including WKU as well. They lost to Central Arkansas in 2009. Did you read any of my post?

Over the last 5 years, current Sun Belt teams are a combined 14 - 3 against FCS opponents.

Is that more clear?

What is their record against the CAA and SoCon which are traditionally viewed as the two best FCS conferences?

[Tuscon]

What is their record against the CAA and SoCon which are traditionally viewed as the two best FCS conferences?

Not sure, and I'm not really willing to go digging(I looked at each record for each team for the last 5 years to get the other data). For what it's worth, the Sun Belt has not played these conferences in the last two years so it's hard to tell.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I looked at the last 5 years. Just like was mentioned in the post I responded to. I didn't include WKU over MTSU, oversight on my part I guess. My b. So we have McNeese State over ULL, which I included. And we have Indiana State over Kentucky, which I included. You forgot one if we are including WKU as well. They lost to Central Arkansas in 2009. Did you read any of my post?

Over the last 5 years, current Sun Belt teams are a combined 14 - 3 against FCS opponents.

Is that more clear?

Nice resume....

7 SWAC wins, two wins over chronically underfunded Nicholls, a one-point win over SELA, one MEAC win....a Pioneer thrown in for good measure and two OVCs...

CLEARLY, with such a giant-killing resume, the Sunbelt is underrated....

FAU and Troy are the only two schools who schedule well....

When the Sunbelt has the intestinal fortitude to schedule quality FCS teams, they've lost or barelyh escaped with their life, the 22-scholarship advantage notwithstanding.

The bull**** arguments you guys make about getting better recruits, etc. is nothing more than mental masturbation. If you had an extra 22 difference makers, Sunbelt teams would NEVER lose to FCS squads and the conference's resume wouldn't include breathless one-point reprieves against average SELA teams...

Over the last five years, the Belt hasn't scheduled but two quality FCS schools and they got spanked when they did....The only reason the SBC is 14-3 is because you've scheduled 7 SWACS, 2 OVCs, 2 MEACs and a Pioneer opponent....No disrespect to anybody from those conferences, but the SBC is clearly ducking games against quality FCS opponents....

but go ahead. Drink the Koolaide. You've hit the big time... ;)

[Skjellyfetti]

Well, you just eliminated most of FCS in the region as horrible and piss poor for scheduling purposes.

I think the upper echelon of FCS is quality football... but, that is shrinking as more teams move up. I mean, at some point schools have to think of a future of OVC, SWAC, MEAC, Pioneer, and SoCon and Southland bottom feeders and wonder if they want to try to fill out an entire schedule with them or just the occasional OOC game....

[Tuscon]

Nice resume....

7 SWAC wins, two wins over chronically underfunded Nicholls, a one-point win over SELA, one MEAC win....a Pioneer thrown in for good measure and two OVCs...

CLEARLY, with such a giant-killing resume, the Sunbelt is underrated....

FAU and Troy are the only two schools who schedule well....

When the Sunbelt has the intestinal fortitude to schedule quality FCS teams, they've lost or barelyh escaped with their life, the 22-scholarship advantage notwithstanding.

The bull**** arguments you guys make about getting better recruits, etc. is nothing more than mental masturbation. If you had an extra 22 difference makers, Sunbelt teams would NEVER lose to FCS squads and the conference's resume wouldn't include breathless one-point reprieves against average SELA teams...

Over the last five years, the Belt hasn't scheduled but two quality FCS schools and they got spanked when they did....The only reason the SBC is 14-3 is because you've scheduled 7 SWACS, 2 OVCs, 2 MEACs and a Pioneer opponent....No disrespect to anybody from those conferences, but the SBC is clearly ducking games against quality FCS opponents....

but go ahead. Drink the Koolaide. You've hit the big time... ;)

A question was asked and I answered it. No need for all the extra bull**** that comes with one of your responses.

[FormerPokeCenter]

A question was asked and I answered it. No need for all the extra bull**** that comes with one of your responses.

So you're seriously going to tout the SunBelch record when it came against 7 SWAC teams, two MEAC teams, two OVC teams and a Pioneer team???

Really?

Thanks for the chuckle ;)

[Tuscon]

Anyone bored and want to look this up?

What's the Sun Belt's record vs. the FCS over the last 5 years or so?


So you're seriously going to tout the SunBelch record when it came against 7 SWAC teams, two MEAC teams, two OVC teams and a Pioneer team???

Really?

Thanks for the chuckle ;)

I'm not touting anything. The question was asked so I went out and got the answer. That is the record for the last 5 years for Sun Belt vs. FCS. Not upper tier FCS, not lower tier FCS. ALL FCS GAMES vs SUN BELT TEAMS. Everyone is so uppity around here.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

I'm not touting anything. The question was asked so I went out and got the answer. That is the record for the last 5 years for Sun Belt vs. FCS. Not upper tier FCS, not lower tier FCS. ALL FCS GAMES vs SUN BELT TEAMS. Everyone is so uppity around here.

Uppity? That is an interesting assertion. When is it you will leave this lowly FCS sphere, for more important boards? Folks wished GaState well. They congratulated GaState on the better travel fit of the SBC. Even the CAA fans have done little more than wave goodbye to a football foe the have maybe never known. It seems likes a good choice for the school, especially since you have not cultivated much of an identity/rivalry in the CAA, with more regional possibilities. All these points have been made by many posters in their analyses in oh-so-many threads on this topic.

These same FCS fans, when they point out that the SBC's relative success against FCS opponents is suspect (check the RPIs/Sagarin if you truly want to nerd out on this), they are uppity? Is it too nuanced for you? Sounds a bit like the "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument, popular in politics this season.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I'm not touting anything. The question was asked so I went out and got the answer. That is the record for the last 5 years for Sun Belt vs. FCS. Not upper tier FCS, not lower tier FCS. ALL FCS GAMES vs SUN BELT TEAMS. Everyone is so uppity around here.

You apparently had the energy and interest to dig through the records and were only too eager to breathlessly report back that the SBC, absent WKU was 9-1 versus FCS. Then you were provided with the factual record and you revised it to 14-3....

When asked about the Sunbelt record against the SoConn and the CAA, you feigned ignorance and indicated that you didn't have the energy for that search...Or were you really faking? ;)

In your original search, you HAD to notice a pattern when you dug through the records since more than half of the 14 wins came against the SWAC and the MEAC. Add in some OVC wins and aPioneer win and it becomes BLATANTLY obvious that 12 of the 14 wins you've touted came at the hands of the weakest conferences in FCS. That HAD to be obvious and - moreover - it should have been equally obvious that there was a dearth of traditionally strong FCS squads on the Sunbelt dance card.

We probably need to have a tautological review of the word "tout" just to bring you up to speed on what the word actually means ;)

Now, granted, it's possible that your football knowledge is such that those sorts of issues didn't occur to you and that's sorta the point most people have been making about the average Georgia State fan. You folks have this belief that you're innately predisposed to success, despite the overwhleming evidence to the contrary ;)

You dilettantes are moving up and that's ABSOLUTELY fantastic. We wish you well, truly....but we're gonna laugh our asses off watching your collective epiphany when reality hit you like a ton of bricks.

When it does, you'll begin to look at things critically....like...say....the quality of your wins.

However, you're not the first SBC school to try to make the assumption that wins are fungible commodities. A few years back some USL fans came up with a formulaic system to evaluate athletic programs. They basically selectively weighted various sports and came up with a forumula whereby USL would be in top three athletic programs in the nation when it came to the fan being able to enjoy watching the university's sports teams win. Unfortunately for USL, their wins were in Girl's Softball and their formula, known as the Pentathlam, discounted something as fundamentally obvious as - say - LSU winning 11 games in front of 93,000 fans every week - in favor of USL's 600 women's softball fans watching the Lady Cajuns win..The rest of us affectionately referred to their formula as the Pentaphlegm...

However, no amount of selective logic, squinting,tilting one's head to the side, proper lighting and holding one's tongue just so - or fuzzy logic - will obviate the fact that who you play matters...

You'll see this soon enough, I suppose ;)

[Tuscon]

Uppity? That is an interesting assertion. When is it you will leave this lowly FCS sphere, for more important boards? Folks wished GaState well. They congratulated GaState on the better travel fit of the SBC. Even the CAA fans have done little more than wave goodbye to a football foe the have maybe never known. It seems likes a good choice for the school, especially since you have not cultivated much of an identity/rivalry in the CAA, with more regional possibilities. All these points have been made by many posters in their analyses in oh-so-many threads on this topic.

These same FCS fans, when they point out that the SBC's relative success against FCS opponents is suspect (check the RPIs/Sagarin if you truly want to nerd out on this), they are uppity? Is it too nuanced for you? Sounds a bit like the "I'm rubber, you're glue" argument, popular in politics this season.

Alright, calling EVERYONE uppity was a bad choice of words. My bad. There are a choice few around here who just can't help themselves bashing Georgia State and everything we do. We're still playing an FCS schedule this year, so why would I leave the FCS board?

[FCS_pwns_FBS]

Well, you just eliminated most of FCS in the region as horrible and piss poor for scheduling purposes.

I think the upper echelon of FCS is quality football... but, that is shrinking as more teams move up. I mean, at some point schools have to think of a future of OVC, SWAC, MEAC, Pioneer, and SoCon and Southland bottom feeders and wonder if they want to try to fill out an entire schedule with them or just the occasional OOC game....

There are some good teams in the area...upper-echelon SLC teams, which we know the SBC teams (even the better ones) typically lose to. But the SBC teams don't want to play good FCS teams and I can't say I blame them.

And I don't think teams moving up has really diluted the FCS as much as you think. Many of the teams that moved up are teams that are good every once in a while. The Montanas, App. States, GSUs, Delawares, and other such teams have dithered over the years on moving up.

[Tuscon]

You apparently had the energy and interest to dig through the records and were only too eager to breathlessly report back that the SBC, absent WKU was 9-1 versus FCS. Then you were provided with the factual record and you revised it to 14-3....

When asked about the Sunbelt record against the SoConn and the CAA, you feigned ignorance and indicated that you didn't have the energy for that search...Or were you really faking? ;)

In your original search, you HAD to notice a pattern when you dug through the records since more than half of the 14 wins came against the SWAC and the MEAC. Add in some OVC wins and aPioneer win and it becomes BLATANTLY obvious that 12 of the 14 wins you've touted came at the hands of the weakest conferences in FCS. That HAD to be obvious and - moreover - it should have been equally obvious that there was a dearth of traditionally strong FCS squads on the Sunbelt dance card.

We probably need to have a tautological review of the word "tout" just to bring you up to speed on what the word actually means ;)

Now, granted, it's possible that your football knowledge is such that those sorts of issues didn't occur to you and that's sorta the point most people have been making about the average Georgia State fan. You folks have this belief that you're innately predisposed to success, despite the overwhleming evidence to the contrary ;)

You dilettantes are moving up and that's ABSOLUTELY fantastic. We wish you well, truly....but we're gonna laugh our asses off watching your collective epiphany when reality hit you like a ton of bricks.

When it does, you'll begin to look at things critically....like...say....the quality of your wins.

However, you're not the first SBC school to try to make the assumption that wins are fungible commodities. A few years back some USL fans came up with a formulaic system to evaluate athletic programs. They basically selectively weighted various sports and came up with a forumula whereby USL would be in top three athletic programs in the nation when it came to the fan being able to enjoy watching the university's sports teams win. Unfortunately for USL, their wins were in Girl's Softball and their formula, known as the Pentathlam, discounted something as fundamentally obvious as - say - LSU winning 11 games in front of 93,000 fans every week - in favor of USL's 600 women's softball fans watching the Lady Cajuns win..The rest of us affectionately referred to their formula as the Pentaphlegm...

However, no amount of selective logic, squinting,tilting one's head to the side, proper lighting and holding one's tongue just so - or fuzzy logic - will obviate the fact that who you play matters...

You'll see this soon enough, I suppose ;)

I didn't edit a thing. I reported 14 - 3 in the original post. Someone asked the record vs. FCS in the last 5 years and I reported back 14 - 3 with WKU and 9 - 1 without.

I didn't notice the difference because being a brand new member(sort of) of the FCS I didn't go buy the BIG FCS BOOK and study real hard. I know SoCon and CAA and those only sort of. Plus, regardless of their status within the FCS, the question that was posed was what is the record vs. FCS which they clearly qualify as.

Seriously, stop talking to me.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I didn't edit a thing. I reported 14 - 3 in the original post. Someone asked the record vs. FCS in the last 5 years and I reported back 14 - 3 with WKU and 9 - 1 without.

I didn't notice the difference because being a brand new member(sort of) of the FCS I didn't go buy the BIG FCS BOOK and study real hard. I know SoCon and CAA and those only sort of. Plus, regardless of their status within the FCS, the question that was posed was what is the record vs. FCS which they clearly qualify as.

Seriously, stop talking to me.

Seriously, are you hearing voices?

Moreover, if you don't wish to have a conversation, then don't post about a topic that I'm likely to respond to....

And, speaking of responses, if you're not fond of communicating with me, then try NOT responding. You'll be AMAZED at how that works to quell the conversation ;)

Oh, wait. I get it. You're Georgia State, so you're of the opinion that you're entitled to the dispostive last word...

P.S. - Thank you for finally admitting what we've been saying for the last two years. You don't know squat about the FCS, but - for some reason - that doesn't stop you from opining about it as though you've got some expertise.

So, I guess it's no wonder, then, that you're opining about the foregone conclusion of your FBS success ;)

[Tuscon]

Seriously, are you hearing voices? Moreover, if you don't wish to have a conversation, then don't post about a topic that I'm likely to respond to....

And, speaking of responses, if you're not fond of communicating with me, then try NOT responding. You'll be AMAZED at how that works ;)

Oh, wait. I get it. You're Georgia State, so you're of the opinion that you're entitled to the dispostive last word...

I usually talk Georgia State and for whatever reason you are likely to respond to that target. I don't know what Georgia State student/employee touched you when you were younger, but you have to get past it.

[FormerPokeCenter]

I usually talk Georgia State and for whatever reason you are likely to respond to that target. I don't know what Georgia State student/employee touched you when you were younger, but you have to get past it.

I resond to you for the same reason I respond to USL fans, Chattownmocs, University of Chapel Hill @ Charlotte fans and OpieGSU. I enjoy watching you slinkies cascade down the stairs after a gentle nudge. And, you're all nothing if not absolutely predictable with what you post and how you react.

You're an excellent wind-up toy ;)

[Sir William]

I've been reading all these posts @ Ga State's move to the Sun Belt and FBS on this thread and others, and I gotta be honest with you...I don't see what the uproar is all about. GaSt Has decided to do what they feel is in their best interest. As far as the FCS nation is concerned (and the CAA for that matter), they were never really part of the family to begin with. Thank heavens that the SoCon had the wisdom not to entertain them as a prospective member!

GaSt will become to college football in the state of Georgia what UAB has become to college football in the state of Alabama: second-class citizens. In 'Bama, Auburn and UA are IT as far as FBS football is concerned. I know that UAB fields a team, and that they sometimes may have a winning season against CUSA competition, but most in the state who care about FBS football have - and will always have - a heart for the Tigers or the Tide. On any given Saturday in which the Blazers are playing a home game in Birmingham, if you offer a UAB student or alum a ticket to a game in Tuscaloosa or Auburn, I would bet you nine dollars to a nickel that 90% would give up their seat at Legion Field. UAB will always be the redheaded stepchild to the other two.

The same will happen to GaSt. They will never come close to equalling the 'Dogs or Jackets in any respect on the FBS landscape in the Peach State. Guarantee you this...once the Panthers are full-fledged SunBelters, on any given Saturday afternoon in the fall, offer them a UGA or Tech ticket, and watch how fast the vast majority will shelf their Dome ticket. It's just the way it is and the way it will always be.

Someone may say "what about South Florida?"...ie, why not compare GaSt to USF as far as potential goes. Fine. USF finally has had some success at the FBS level on the national scene in a state where three programs are king. Just keep in mind that it has taken 20 yrs to do so; and still, if you ask the average to above-average football fan in Florida to name their favorite team, guess who runs a very distant 4th at best (and maybe 5th, as many UCF fans would argue). My point remains the same.

I wish GaSt all the best in the Sun Belt. I hope they thrive there, and I believe they will. Nonetheless, they will never have the tradition that their instate FCS brother, Georgia Southern, has established in college football history (as much as it makes me wince to say that as a Furman alum :)). Let the Panthers go in peace. Their irrelevance to FCS football remains the same. And their future relevance to college football at both the national, regional and state level remains to be seen.

And the same goes for UNC-Charlotte. xsmiley_wix

[SoCon48]

Alright, calling EVERYONE uppity was a bad choice of words. My bad. There are a choice few around here who just can't help themselves bashing Georgia State and everything we do. We're still playing an FCS schedule this year, so why would I leave the FCS board?

Exactly. Point well taken.

[PaladinFan]

I wish GaSt all the best in the Sun Belt. I hope they thrive there, and I believe they will. Nonetheless, they will never have the tradition that their instate FCS brother, Georgia Southern, has established in college football history (as much as it makes me wince to say that as a Furman alum :)). Let the Panthers go in peace. Their irrelevance to FCS football remains the same. And their future relevance to college football at both the national, regional and state level remains to be seen.

And the same goes for UNC-Charlotte. xsmiley_wix


I think you make a good point. I think there is a larger argument regarding the FBS/FCS transition, but on a base level, what Georgia State does should matter very little. They have made virtually no impact on the FCS landscape, and in fact, really haven't even played a season with FCS opponents. They have, essentially, played a DII schedule and are attempting to completely skip the FCS all-together.

2012 will be the first (and apparently only) season the Panthers will attempt something that resembles an FCS schedule.

[TheRevSFA]

I'd love if Georgia State scheduled SFA for a bodybag game. We'd love to come to Atlanta, take the money and the win

[Mountaineer#96]

I'm sure they would find plenty of takers for that type of game.......a win and the money, whats not to like?

[PaladinFan]

I'm sure they would find plenty of takers for that type of game.......a win and the money, whats not to like?

Count Furman in on that as well.

Actually, we don't want to take all the fun as we get to welcome UNCC to the FCS at some point as well.

[ASUMountaineer]

Count Furman in on that as well.

Actually, we don't want to take all the fun as we get to welcome UNCC to the FCS at some point as well.

I guess sooner or later I was going to have to root for FUrple. xlolx

[Skjellyfetti]

And I don't think teams moving up has really diluted the FCS as much as you think. Many of the teams that moved up are teams that are good every once in a while.

I'm not sure how you can say this.

Seems like we're averaging an FCS program a month announcing a moveup.

[PaladinFan]

I'm not sure how you can say this.

Seems like we're averaging an FCS program a month announcing a moveup.

Has a lot to do with the conference shakeup. A couple of conferences are bringing on every warm body that appears to be willing to pay and play.

[MplsBison]

Has a lot to do with the conference shakeup. A couple of conferences are bringing on every warm body that appears to be willing to pay and play.

Able, you mean. Most FCS schools can't.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Yeah, we get it, MB-- most FCS schools are lightweights, visionless, no guts, screwed priorities, or just jewels in small markets, like Fargo...

If the FCS fan base does not value the current status of their own schools, the BCS con game has run its course. Sit on your flanks, watch what Bristol is showing and save your bandwidth, posting here.

[MplsBison]

Yeah, we get it, MB-- most FCS schools are lightweights, visionless, no guts, screwed priorities, or just jewels in small markets, like Fargo...

If the FCS fan base does not value the current status of their own schools, the BCS con game has run its course. Sit on your flanks, watch what Bristol is showing and save your bandwidth, posting here.

You and I post here for the same reason everyone else does: entertainment. There's nothing else to be had in coming here.

Carry on.

[Sycamore51]

If INST moves up to join the MAC, will that increase the value of my three degrees from there? If so then I'm going to force my kids to go to IU or Testicle Tech

[Apphole]

How Many Hits can the FCS Take?

"But if, say, recent national champions Appalachian State and Villanova make what appear to be likely jumps to the FBS, and are joined by the most-successful program in FCS history, Georgia Southern, and other rising programs like ODU, the level of FCS football will suffer greatly.

Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/05/02/in-fcs-huddle-how-many-hits-can-fcs-take/#ixzz1tpiwbEYJ"

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/05/02/in-fcs-huddle-how-many-hits-can-fcs-take/

[asumike83]

If INST moves up to join the MAC, will that increase the value of my three degrees from there? If so then I'm going to force my kids to go to IU or Testicle Tech

Heh... nice. Reps to you, sir. xlolx