Kupchella(UND Pres.) letter to NCAA

[Coastal89]

Dear All,

I have chosen to communicate with you in this way for several reasons. Since you have had what you say is the "final" word on the issue of our nickname and logo, we must now consider legal action. I want you, as well as University of North Dakota stakeholders and the general public, to know why we must. The NCAA leaves us no recourse but to consider litigation to make the point that the policy you have instituted is illegitimate and that it has been applied to the University of North Dakota in an unfair, arbitrary, capricious, fundamentally irrational, and harmful manner.

Despite some of the hard-edged language I have had to use in this letter, I bear no animosity toward any of the NCAA committee members or staff, who, I am certain, are all good people. I suspect that a few people were the driving force and that the issue took on an organizational life of its own. I'm sure that those doing the pushing were motivated by personal conviction. What ever the origin, what emerged was, unfortunately, a kind of organizational self-righteousness. Self-righteousness has wrecked havoc in the guise of good throughout history. Once the self-righteous come to believe in the absolute correctness political or otherwise of their point of view, they proceed with a zeal that leaves no room for reasonable doubt, thoughtful consideration, or fairness.

I hope you understand that as the chief executive officer of the University of North Dakota, I am as I have been doing my best to implement a State Board of Higher Education policy governing our nickname and logo. I must also admit to a personal dislike and aversion to the corruption of logic in the convoluted process you used in arriving at your decisions. Also, because I am a graduate of Indiana University of Pennsylvania, spent time at the University of Illinois in a post-doctoral program, and serve as president of UND, I know directly what great institutions these are. They all deserve better from the NCAA than to be charged with decades of being hostile and abusive with a presumption of guilt. I wonder if you really have any idea how serious these charges are. I admit that because of my sense of justice and fairness, I would have taken personal issue with what you have done here in any case.

The policy is illegitimate

http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14785748.htm

[aust42]

The political correctness lynch mob has filtered intself into sports. For the powers that be to even pay attention to them and then actually cater to them by implementing this nickname/logo crap rule is a shame. What's next? PITA suing the NCAA to drop animal names b/c it portrays them in some bad way?

Coastal89. I love that Ted Nugent quote!

[Mr. C]

I hope people will follow the link and read the whole letter. What a brilliant letter. He did a great job in hitting on the hypocracy and narrow-mindedness of the NCAA. I particularly liked this quote:

"By the way, it was widely and cynically noted here that "Pontiac" is a corporate sponsor of the NCAA. But perhaps this is unfair; both the NCAA and General Motors may well have gotten the permission of the descendants of Chief Pontiac or the Ottawa Tribe."

Touche.

By the way, did anyone read Rick Reilly's column on the NCAA and its Division III track and field fiasco in SI? What a bureucratic bunch of idiots, from Miles Brand on down.

[ndsubison]

The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux is a Division II school. What is the purpose of posting here? The nickname? Fine. Go to d2football.com and vent. xidiotx

NDSU BISON: Look out I-AA, We're Coming...:thumbsup:

[Demon Fan]

The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux is a Division II school. What is the purpose of posting here? The nickname? Fine. Go to d2football.com and vent. xidiotx

NDSU BISON: Look out I-AA, We're Coming...:thumbsup:

What are you saying? That this is a Division II issue and does not concern Division I schools? Get real! Sounds to me like some personal problem because the letter was written by the president of UND and not NDSU! President Kupchella's eloquent and insightful letter exposes some serious errors and irresponsible actions by the NCAA, and very much needed to be posted on this website.

[MplsBison]

He's being a typical NDSU fan and trying to put down UND in any possible way he can.

IE, blind hatred.

[TexasTerror]

President Kupchella's eloquent and insightful letter exposes some serious errors and irresponsible actions by the NCAA, and very much needed to be posted on this website.

I agree...

Should've been more I-AA ties brought up in the initial post, such as talking about I-AA affiliated schools such as William & Mary who are tied to this whole name/logo issue. The letter definitely hits home as this issue does have I-AA ties, without question...

[lucchesicourt]

Like I have said before, I believe that having something named after you is an honor and not in any way done to make light of the great tradition of individuals or groups. The fact UND took the Siuox as the mascot is an honor to the Sioux, IMO. People are just suing to make people chamge to the way THEY think, even though the majority may disagree with them. For instance, "one nation under God"- I would guess the majority people would agree with this, too.

[MplsBison]

The problem is that the NCAA actually found a tribe that wanted the school to not use its name.

They might possibly be the only tribe in the entire US to do so.

Not sure though.


Utes, Illini, Chippewas, Simonoles: no problem, we feel it's an honor to have our tribe name being represented by the schools


Sioux: we hate our name being used

[Tod]

The problem is that the NCAA actually found a tribe that wanted the school to not use its name.

They might possibly be the only tribe in the entire US to do so.

Not sure though.


Utes, Illini, Chippewas, Simonoles: no problem, we feel it's an honor to have our tribe name being represented by the schools


Sioux: we hate our name being used

Did you read the letter? There may be some Sioux that don't like it, but overall, there's support.

[GOKATS]

I sincerely hope that if the NCAA doesn't back down that UND takes them to court. This is clearly a no-brainer, but since when did the NCAA and 'brains' have anything in common? :rolleyes:

[bisonguy]

Did you read the letter? There may be some Sioux that don't like it, but overall, there's support.

Reading the letter you'd think there was support from the tribes, however there still is not one tribe that has supported the name. Kupchella keeps referring to a resolution in which a tribe stated that they neither supported nor opposed the use of the name. If that's the closest they can get to tribal support, it's a long way off.

The nickname issue keeps coming up every couple of years at UND for the last couple of decades. They need to either actually get tribal support for it or change it.

[*****]

As smackers would say...

NCAA, YOU GOT SERVED!

[Mr. C]

The whole point is we don't need the NCAA getting involved with all of this politically correct bull. Political correctness is an eroding element for our First Ammendment rights and should be fought with every ounce of strength. Are there people who do and say insensitive (and sometimes even racist) things? Of course. But political correctness is an overreaction to correcting them.

[Tod]

Reading the letter you'd think there was support from the tribes, however there still is not one tribe that has supported the name. Kupchella keeps referring to a resolution in which a tribe stated that they neither supported nor opposed the use of the name. If that's the closest they can get to tribal support, it's a long way off.

The nickname issue keeps coming up every couple of years at UND for the last couple of decades. They need to either actually get tribal support for it or change it.

Wrong. Who opposes the name? You say yourself that there is neither support NOR opposition. If that's the case, why change it? There's NO opposition!

Why do they need to either get tribal support or change it? Who made you the authority?

:confused: : smh :

[*****]

Reading the letter you'd think there was support from the tribes, however there still is not one tribe that has supported the name... They need to either actually get tribal support for it or change it.President Kupchella wrote:
... we offered the facts that (1) our nearest Sioux Tribe gave us written permission (which still stands despite repeated attempts by the NCAA staff itself and other nickname opponents to ask the Tribal Council to rescind its resolution) to use the name; (2) we have over four hundred American Indian students going to school here, many of whom are just fine with the nickname and none of whom would be here if the environment were really hostile and abusive; (3) it was reported to you, directly by the Chair of the Tribal Council Judicial Committee that, at the only other Sioux Reservation based in North Dakota, a district-by-district referendum resulted in nearly unanimous support for UND's use of the Sioux nickname; and, (4) the Office for Civil Rights of the U.S. Department of Education spent a week here investigating earlier "hostile environment" charges made by our local nickname opposition group and made no such finding as clear indications that our handling of the nickname is in no way hostile and abusive.

Fighting Sioux and our logo are registered trademarks. The Federal Trademark Act of 1946 prohibits the registration of any mark that:

Consists of or comprises immoral, deceptive, or scandalous matter, or matter which may disparage or falsely suggest a connection with persons, living or dead, institutions, beliefs, or national symbols or bring them into contempt or dispute.Are you calling the prez a liar?

[bisonguy]

Wrong. Who opposes the name? You say yourself that there is neither support NOR opposition. If that's the case, why change it? There's NO opposition!

One Sioux tribe has stated a neutral position. All of the other tribes have contacted UND to remove the name.



Why do they need to either get tribal support or change it? Who made you the authority?

:confused: : smh :
I'm about as much of an authority on the subject as you are. It's strictly my opinion that if you're 'honoring' a group of people, they should be OK with it. I don't like to bring up this site, as it is pretty liberal, but it has the resolutions asking for the removal of the name- http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/bridges/index2.html. Factor in that president Kupchella was actually going to change the name back around 2000, until the State Board of Higher Ed decided to have an eleventh hour meeting breaking enumerous meeting and open records laws in the state when Ralph Engelstad threatened to completely abandon the current construction of UND's $100MM+ hockey arena if the name was changed, and you have a more complex issue than what is being told.


IF UND can secure tribal approval, this would become a non-issue, instead of becoming a big issue every 3-4 years. I, along with many others in the state, am sick of this issue and just want some sort of final resolution. It's a waste of time and taxpayer money for the UND administration to have to deal with this all the time.


ralph-
......the Chair of the Tribal Council Judicial Committee that,.......

Notice the flaw??

[*****]

One Sioux tribe has stated a neutral position. All of the other tribes have contacted UND to remove the name. So you are calling the prez a liar.
IF UND can secure tribal approvalSo you are calling the prez a liar.
Notice the flaw??No, I don't. I read the prez saying:
"our nearest Sioux Tribe gave us written permission"
"it was reported to you [NCAA], directly by the Chair of the Tribal Council Judicial Committee that, at the only other Sioux Reservation based in North Dakota, a district-by-district referendum resulted in nearly unanimous support for UND's use of the Sioux nickname"

The flaw I notice is you, a fan of a bitter rival, saying they have no approval and essentially calling their prez (and CEO) a liar.

[blur2005]

I'm for political correctness to a certain degree and for respecting different people, but I think all this hubbub about college nicknames is ridiculous. I'm completely against changing nicknames of teams unless they are just outrageously offensive, and last time I checked, "Fighting Sioux" just isn't very offensive, even to the Sioux, as it does nothing to degrade them.

[bisonguy]

So you are calling the prez a liar.So you are calling the prez a liar.No, I don't. I read the prez saying:
"our nearest Sioux Tribe gave us written permission"
"it was reported to you [NCAA], directly by the Chair of the Tribal Council Judicial Committee that, at the only other Sioux Reservation based in North Dakota, a district-by-district referendum resulted in nearly unanimous support for UND's use of the Sioux nickname"

The flaw I notice is you, a fan of a bitter rival, saying they have no approval and essentially calling their prez (and CEO) a liar.

Ralph,

Can the U.S. Supreme Court declare war?

First, read this:University of North Dakota: Sioux tribes support nickname (http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14443230.htm)


......ND released a letter written to the NCAA by Archie Fool Bear, chairman of the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe's judicial committee. Fool Bear said six of the eight districts on the reservation have voted "overwhelmingly" to support the Grand Forks school's use of the nickname.......


Then, read this:Standing Rock Tribal Chairman Letter (http://www2.ncaa.org/portal/media_and_events/press_room/2006/april/20060428_standing_rock_sioux_tribe_letter.pdf)

Yes, UND received support from the Standing Rock Judicial Committee, but they did not receive support from the actual Tribal Council, which is the highest level of government in the tribe.

The Spirit Lake Tribe was the tribe that 'supported' the nickname previously given certain criteria were met, but then look at this:Spirit Lake Nation members oppose 'Fighting Sioux' (http://www.indianz.com/News/2005/010092.asp)


Six tribal members on one side, half a dozen on the other. This issue at UND has been going on for decades. Work with the tribes to get tribal support, and the issue is closed. The NCAA would not be able to defend their ruling if UND has at least a majority of tribal support.

[*****]

Ralph,
Can the U.S. Supreme Court declare war?...What are you talking about??? (I read all three links you gave) The guy just reported that six out of eight "overwhelmingly" supported the name. Period. The almighty smoke-filled room committee took that and then made a completely opposite decision. Sounds like what the NCAA board did with the 12 games for I-AA and the name change. A few took the reigns and ignored the majority. No wonder the prez is mad.

[JohnStOnge]

The University of North Dakota Fighting Sioux is a Division II school. What is the purpose of posting here? The nickname? Fine. Go to d2football.com and vent. xidiotx

NDSU BISON: Look out I-AA, We're Coming...:thumbsup:

Well...this is the "other sports" section. Besides, it does affect the entire NCAA.

[lucchesicourt]

Maybe, we should remove the Sioux name from EVERYTHING, including history books. That way we will be sure not to offend them. And, the end result would be they and their culture will be remembered as often as the DoDo bird. Is that what the sioux are thinking. personally, the only time I remeber the Sioux is when we are playing a team caled the Sioux or if I am watching a western movie that mentions them. Otherwise, the Sioux do not come to mind.

[JBB]

The judicial committee can only make recommendations it does not speak for the tribe.

Fool Bear heads up the judical Committee. He is one of the few official supporters of using the nickname but has no power himself to speak for the Tribe. The ruling Council is clear and united against using the name. If the prez says anything different he is at best coloring the issue to his advantage or out right lying:

"Fool Bear said in an interview Thursday that the support of the tribe is not official until the Tribal Council acts on the matter next week."

UND President Charles Kupchella acknowledged that a Tribal Council vote was pending, but said in an interview that Fool Bear's letter is enough "to indicate that we have the will of the people."

The council denied the use of the nickname and Kupchellas claim of support is as vicarious as it is dishonest.

Many of the reactions here are emotional. The NCAA is made up of its members. It is not a nebulous god ruling from above. The members have responded to other members complaints. It is working like an organization enjoying self rule should act.

The issue is often incorrectly framed as making them stop using the nickname. If this were the case it would lose in court.

Correctly framed the issue deals only with using the nickname at NCAA sponsored chamionship events and hosting said events. The court is not going to start managing NCAA events which is basically what Und is asking it to do.

[walliver]

This whole "tribal permission" thing is a joke. Yes, representatives of the Seminole tribes have given permission for FSU to call their teams "Seminole", but I'm sure there is at least one Seminole somewhere who is a Gator fan and doesn't like the name. I'm sure there is a least one Irishman somewhere who is offended by the Leprechaum and "Fighting Irish". The NCAA has used this whole tribal support issue as a means of banning Indian nicknames without affecting the "Big Boys".

The NCAA should not have opened this can of worms. People whose loved one have been bit by sharks, mauled by bears, eaten by alligators, bit by rattlesnakes, bitten by dogs, killed by wild cats, lost homes in hurricanes, dehumanized by cock-fighting, had their car finishes damaged by Eagle droppings, or attacked by mountain men on the appalachian trail - are they not offended by teams names after Sharks, Bears, Gators, Rattlesnakes (Mocs?), canines (Bulldogs, Terriers, Huskies), felines (Wildcats, Tigers, Lions and Catamounts), Hurricanes, Gamecocks (and Beach Chickens), Eagles (and Hawks etc), and Mountaineers/Volunteers. What about the satanic implications of Demon Deacons and Blue Devils. How do pacifists feel about Cadets, Keydets, and Minutemen). What about the W&M Tribe - shouldn't they seek diversity, not tribalism). Don't forget Pirates and Buccaneers - these people raped and killed many innoncent people, surely this is offensive to women everywhere. Personally, I am offended by Paladins in general.

The Cleveland Indian mascot, I'll admit, is offensive. But, most schools chose Indian nicknames out of respect for the fighting spirit of the Indians who, despite technological disadvantages fought bravely for what they believed in. If these names should be changed to reflect current opinion, then these name changes should be locally driven at the individual schools and not mandated by the money boys at the NCAA.

[JohnStOnge]

I agree with the idea that the whole thing of worrying about "Indian" or "Native American" nicknames is ridiculous and a sad commentary on how over sensitive our culture has become. Only thing is I don't know if I like the idea of sueing over it because the NCAA is a voluntary organization. I think what the NCAA did is asinine but I don't think government (through courts) should be involved in it, even if it's not fair that some schools got to keep their nicknames and others didn't.

[*****]

The judicial committee can only make recommendations it does not speak for the tribe. Fool Bear heads up the judical Committee. He is one of the few official supporters of using the nickname but has no power himself to speak for the Tribe. The ruling Council is clear and united against using the name. If the prez says anything different he is at best coloring the issue to his advantage or out right lying...Yes, it is clear.

The majority of the districts are for the name.<--- supporters

The Council is against the name.<--- not repping the majority

The prez did not lie.

[bisonguy]

What are you talking about???

The Judicial Committe is not the official voice of the tribe.



(I read all three links you gave) The guy just reported that six out of eight "overwhelmingly" supported the name. Period.

"Overwhelmingly" supported what??

Once again, another news story on it- Total nickname support? (http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandforks/14447457.htm)

..But His Horse is Thunder said Fool Bear's committee can only make recommendations to the full council and that he didn't have the authority to lobby the NCAA.....

Kupchella said he understood that the district residents took formal votes about the nickname. But Jesse Taken Alive, a tribal council member, said the votes cited by Fool Bear weren't formal and they weren't even about the nickname.

"Judicial Committee members went to the schools and communities and asked people if they supported whether to approach UND about receiving tuition waivers," Taken Alive said. "There was no indication that the scholarships were going to be a tradeoff or sell off to give an endorsement of the nickname. The discussion was not about the nickname."

[JBB]

Ignoring the official voice of those being offended amounts to denial. Absurdly extending the issue beyond the NCAAs authority is totally misleading.

It doesn't have anything to do with the name of a car or city or even an airline. Those examples are outside of the NCAA. It is about the names and images you can use in an NCAA sponsored championship event as host or participant. Its not a precedent for anything outside of the NCAA.

Und can keep the name for heavens sake!

Kupechellas statements completely devalue the tribes official position and knowingly take the NCAAs position out of context. That is what is actually offensive. By itself it is hostile and abusive. It is evidence of a total lack of sensitivity.

His attempts at splitting the tribe and the efforts and resources poured into fighting the NCAA and everyone else in favor of the ruling, including The Tribe, is wasteful and a failure of leadership. Why doesn't he accept the NCAA position and begin working with the Tribes to establish something other than a dysfunctional, exploitive relationship with them? Maybe in a couple of yrs they can reconcile and file for reinstatement with their support?

They have had more than enough time to do this already. Thats the failure of leadership.

[JohnStOnge]

Kupechellas statements completely devalue the tribes official position and knowingly take the NCAAs position out of context. That is what is actually offensive. By itself it is hostile and abusive. It is evidence of a total lack of sensitivity.

I think it's absolutely ridiculous that our culture has gotten to the point where anybody, including this tribe, is even remotely concerned that somebody uses the name defining some group of people as a mascot to the point of demanding that they not use it.

It's been said many times before but I'll say it again: The use of nicknames representing groups of people is very prevalent. Fighting Irish, Rajun Cajuns, Vikings, Trojans, Spartans, etc. It's nuts to have this big deal over teams calling themselves Indians or Hurons or Fighting Sioux. Redskins I can kind of understand because it was used as a slur at one time but even that is being a little thin skinned.

They say to put yourself in other peoples' place. Well, I've thought long and hard about it and I can't think of ANYTHING somebody could call a team that'd be based on a defined group of people I belong to that would get me bent out of shape.

Getting upset because people call a college team "Fightin Sioux" is really, to me, pretty ridiculous and having an official policy like the NCAA has on these nicknames is even moreso.

[Gil Dobie]

It all depends on which way the money is flowing :eyebrow:

Civil Right Commission Letter Link (http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/bridges/armstrong.html)

It later emerged that the board’s actions were prompted by threats from Las Vegas casino owner Ralph Engelstad to withdraw a $100 million pledge to the university if it were to change the nickname.

"I have spent, as of this time, in excess of $35 million, which I will consider a bad investment, but I will take my lumps and walk away," Engelstad wrote.

One day after Kupchella received the letter, the Board of Higher Education voted 8-0 to retain the nickname.

In the wake of the furor over Engelstad’s letter, Kupchella reportedly urged the University Senate, composed of UND faculty, to reiterate its support for changing the nickname to assist the president in persuading the state board to consider phasing out the name.

The faculty organization overwhelmingly supported the change, but Kupchella immediately denied supporting such a move after his alleged comments were contested by Larry Isaak, chancellor of the North Dakota State University System. UND spokesman Johnson said Kupchella’s words had been misrepresented by the Grand Forks Herald.

[JohnStOnge]

You know, I tried to put myself in the shoes of "Native Americans." I asked myself: Could anybody possibly come up with a nickname that refers to an ethnic group I'm part of that would get my shorts in a wad?

Then it occurred to me...someone does have a mascot that's a "stereotype" of an ethic group I'm part of and it doesn't bother me at all.

The mascot is the Universtiy of Louisiana at Lafayette's Ragin' Cajun. My mother is a cajun as they come. When I used to go visit her side of the family as a kid they used to sit around in an old house with a tin roof made out of cypress wood and converse in Cajun French. My relatives on that side of the family sound about as stereotypically Cajun when they speak as it gets.

Acadians historically were an oppressed and people despised by other groups. They were kicked out of Canada and viewed as stupid and untrustworthy down here. Mothers warned to girls to stay away from them. They couldn't be trusted. They were wild and crazy.

I can remember going to games of what was then the University of Southwestern Louisiana and seeing a "big head" Cajun mascot. The depiction was the cartoon sterotypical representation...hat and all.

It never even remotely occurred to me to be offended. The "sensitivity" level in this country is way too high.

[Gil Dobie]

It never even remotely occurred to me to be offended. The "sensitivity" level in this country is way too high.

Until the casino boom, most Native Americans were stuck on reservations. Standard of living on the res is pretty bad. Lots of drugs, booze, domestic abuse. Most of the Native American's when they come to town are treated poorly by the mostly white townspeople. I have seen buildings with "No Indians Allowed" signs on the store windows. The reservation is a sad, but well kept secret in America.

[HI54UNI]

North Dakota to Sue NCAA Over Penalty for 'Fighting Sioux' Nickname
Thursday, June 15, 2006

What Is the Price of March Madness?
WILLISTON, N.D. — State officials voted Thursday to sue the NCAA for penalizing the University of North Dakota over its "Fighting Sioux" nickname and Indian head logo.

Following a meeting with Attorney General Wayne Stenehjem, the Board of Higher Education voted 8-0 to authorize the lawsuit, which would be handled by Stenehjem.

The NCAA last year announced it was banning the use of ethically or racially "hostile" or "abusive" nicknames, mascots and imagery at championship events. It found 18 schools, including UND, to be in violation of the policy.

Several of those schools have since changed team names and mascots or won appeals after local tribes came to their defense. In UND's case, though, the NCAA rejected the appeal and told the school it may not use the Fighting Sioux nickname and Indian head logo during NCAA postseason tournaments, and it may not host a tournament if it continues to use them.

Stenehjem said the NCAA's decision was an edict delivered by a committee that used constantly changing standards and didn't put the plan to a vote of the NCAA's membership.

The NCAA's executive committee, "more or less by fiat, decided that some institutions were going to be subject to this rule, and some institutions, for reasons that are not understandable, were exempted," Stenehjem said.

He wouldn't say when the lawsuit, to be financed by private funds, would be filed.

NCAA President Miles Brand has said the NCAA will defend its policy "to the utmost."

North Dakota's Board of Higher Education reviewed the UND nickname and logo in 2000 and ordered the university to keep them shortly after a benefactor building a hockey arena on campus threatened to leave it unfinished if the name and logo changed.

A number of Indian tribes and students support dropping the nickname and logo. One official with the Standing Rock Sioux Tribe wrote a letter supporting the university, but another opposed the nickname.

David Gipp, president of Bismarck's United Tribes Technical College, asked the board to forgo legal action.

"We would hope that rather than spend funds on a lawsuit, the funds were instead used to create more opportunities for American Indians, and all North Dakotans, to improve their lives and to promote diversity," he wrote.



http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,199698,00.html

[PantherRob82]

This whole thing is getting kind of old. Although racial equality is not where it should be, I think that most people are finally opening their minds and being more accepting of others. In my opinion the whole NCAA rule is more of a setback than a tool to end racial injustice. :twocents:

[Rabbit3467]

This whole decision is probably more about racism than any other school. UND received money from Ralph Englested to build one of the best hockey arenas in the world, but also sold their souls to the devil. Englestad was a very rich man who owned the emperial palace on the las vegas strip. He paid around 100 million to the school, but also said they could not change their nickname. In order to make sure everyone understood this he put the sioux logo on every chair in the arena and on many other things. The "rumors" I cant substantiate about Englested but seemed to be talked about a lot were that he celebrated Hitler's birthday and was an extreme racist. I also heard that he had a clause in the contract for the hockey arena that if UND changed their nickname the arena was to be bulldozed down. Hopefully I am completely wrong, but it common knowledge that he was extremely racist. Englested died not too long ago so I dont know what that means for UND but the the local Sioux do not support them, and their devil is not around anymore.

I think they are screwed.

[Tod]

This whole decision is probably more about racism than any other school. UND received money from Ralph Englested to build one of the best hockey arenas in the world, but also sold their souls to the devil. Englestad was a very rich man who owned the emperial palace on the las vegas strip. He paid around 100 million to the school, but also said they could not change their nickname. In order to make sure everyone understood this he put the sioux logo on every chair in the arena and on many other things. The "rumors" I cant substantiate about Englested but seemed to be talked about a lot were that he celebrated Hitler's birthday and was an extreme racist. I also heard that he had a clause in the contract for the hockey arena that if UND changed their nickname the arena was to be bulldozed down. Hopefully I am completely wrong, but it common knowledge that he was extremely racist. Englested died not too long ago so I dont know what that means for UND but the the local Sioux do not support them, and their devil is not around anymore.

I think they are screwed.

I think you need some links to support this, there's too much bad "news" here to just take your word for it.

Who has the power to say if a team changes thier mascot the entire arena is to be torn down? That's got to be a load of isht!

:mad: :mad:

[colgate13]

I think you need some links to support this, there's too much bad "news" here to just take your word for it.

Who has the power to say if a team changes thier mascot the entire arena is to be torn down? That's got to be a load of isht!

:mad: :mad:

I don't have links, but that's my understanding of the story too. He put a lot of stipulations on the nickname when he gave the funds, and the funds were too much for UND to say know to.

[Gil Dobie]

I think you need some links to support this, there's too much bad "news" here to just take your word for it.

Who has the power to say if a team changes thier mascot the entire arena is to be torn down? That's got to be a load of isht!

:mad: :mad:

He was a WWII collector gone overboard more than a Nazi, but you can decide for yourself.
Engelstad Bio Link (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F0DE6DC1538F93BA15752C1A9649C8B 63)
Mr. Engelstad was also known for giving parties for employees of the Las Vegas Imperial Palace to celebrate Hitler's birthday. Bartenders at the parties wore shirts bearing the Nazi dictator's picture and the slogan, ''Adolf Hitler -- European Tour 1939-45.'' Mr. Engelstad apologized for the parties, calling them ''not only stupid, but insensitive.''

Letter to Kupchella about nickname change affecting his donation. This letter was also sent to member of the ND Board of Education the day before they approved the nickname.
Engelstad Letter link (http://www.und.nodak.edu/org/bridges/index2.html)
If the logo and slogan are not approved by the above-mentioned date, I will then write a letter on December 30, 2000, to all contractors and to everybody associated with the arena, canceling their construction contracts for the completion of the arena. I am a man of my word, and I will see to it that a settlement is made with all subcontractors, with anyone who has purchased prepaid advertising. I will refund money to all ticket holders and abandon the project. It would then be left up to you if you want to complete it, with money from wherever you may be able to find it.

I have spent, as of this time, in excess of $35 million, which I will consider a bad investment, but I will take my lumps and walk away.

[DuckDuckGriz]

Not only is the politically correct movement taking an irrational turn in this country, but it is reversing its intentions. I think Kupchella gave a great case in point

"Instead of the logical conclusion, that if American Indians, themselves, think Indian nicknames are OK, perhaps they really are OK, we get the latest in a long series of non-Natives deciding what's best for American Indians."

We take the apologetic role, yet, through the PC need, exert ourselves as an even greater all-wise knowing authority and parental figure, as if we need to "protect" these minorities because they can't do it themselves.

[pcola]

UND President Dr. Charles Kupchella is going to be on the Sean Hannity show this afternoon to discuss the NCAA Indian nickname policy this afternoon.

http://www.hannity.com/index/listenlive

[RabidRabbit]

xlolx In regards to Native American nicknames, there isn't :nod: :nod:

The Sioux have a good argument that NCAA is being arbitrary and capricious in regard to this policy.

Why are the Sioux different than the FSU Seminoles, W&M Tribe, UofIL Illini, SDSU Aztez, Notre Dame Irish, Indiana (PA) Indians, Any Braves teams, etc?

Either the NCAA should enforce this, no exceptions, or not have the restrictions.

My Uncle, a VERY SUCCESSFUL Sioux indian, and SDSC grad, never once mentioned UND as a bad school, distasteful nickname. This despite serving in Congress, and 30 years in the BIA serving the various Sioux tribes. In fact, the Big 4 Dakota schools have always demonstrated great respect and assistance to the Sioux tribes and indian reservations.

This is a horrible waste of money both ways to need to pursue protecting something that's been in use for closing in on 100 years. My :twocents: