NCAA: Bracket Expansion Being Considered

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2012-03-06/bracket-expansion-being-considered


The Division I Football Championship Committee at its meeting last week in Indianapolis decided it prefers to seed the top eight teams if the championship expands its bracket to 24 teams.

The committee, which reviewed several expansion models, was charged by a Football Championship Subdivision working group with choosing an option to accommodate a 24-team bracket in the future. The working group will review the plan to present it to the Division I Board of Directors in April.

Netting things out, the article mentioned that the committee looked at differnet models seeding everyone, ans a "regionalized" model (like D-II). But they also looked at some interesting possibilities involving "final four"-type formats for the semifinals and finals, and having the semis in pre-determined neutral sites.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I hope that playoff expansion, combined with merit aid, means that Patriot will become a two-bid conference.

[RichH2]

It might not be an every year event but at 24 I would not be surprised if PL got 2 more often than not.

[MplsBison]

It might not be an every year event but at 24 I would not be surprised if PL got 2 more often than not.

A just world:

4 - CAA
4 - MVFC
4 - Big Sky
3 - SoCon
2 - Patriot
2 - OVC
2 - Southland
1 - MEAC
1 - NEC
1 - Big South

[dbackjon]

Would an expanded field pave the way for a Pioneer auto-bid?

At 24 teams, why not?

[dgreco]

Would an expanded field pave the way for a Pioneer auto-bid?

At 24 teams, why not?

some people will hate it, but I don't see why the PFL should be excluded.

[MplsBison]

Would an expanded field pave the way for a Pioneer auto-bid?

At 24 teams, why not?

Nope.

No scholarship equivalencies = no auto bid.

[bluehenbillk]

Now that's the first I've heard of that - "Final Four" setup - put the semi's & the NC at neutral sites?? While I appreciate the thinking I don't see too many FCS fanbases travelling twice for games. There are only a limited number of fanbases that travel period.....

[darell1976]

A just world:

4 - CAA
4 - MVFC
4 - Big Sky
3 - SoCon
2 - Patriot
2 - OVC
2 - Southland
1 - MEAC
1 - NEC
1 - Big South

Montana, Montana State, Cal Poly, North Dakota....works for me!!xthumbsupx

[MarkyMark]

24 teams is fine, I like giving the opportunity for more athletes and fans to experience the playoffs.

DON'T GO TO A REGIONAL MODEL! The regional model rewards mediocre teams that have great season records but don't play any good teams.

Put the conference champs in and let the best teams across the country get the remaining playoff spots. Don't try to build a model that gives proportionate playoff spots to a midwest region, an east region, a southeast region, ect.

[RichH2]

Gosh darn it, I agree with Mpls on a possible breakdown of bids. Not the same for every year given the possibility of one conference or another having 5-6 very good squads .Nonetheless it does make the point

[Pitz]

Slightly off-topic, but I would love to see some more transparency like the NCAA basketball selection committee is doing this year:

http://deadspin.com/5890921/for-the-first-time-the-ncaa-selection-committee-reveals-how-the-brackets-are-built

[Professor Chaos]

I don't like the semifinals being at neutral sites. I do like seeding the top 8 in a 24 team format. This means that all winners of the opening weekend games will be playing on the road for their second game and allows all top 8 teams to sell tickets for two weeks leading up to the game.

With 24 teams I hope they give the Pioneer an autobid. This would make the FCS playoffs a truly national tournament as every team in the subdivision controls their own destiny from week one. And honestly if you really think the 6th best team in the CAA or the 5th best team in the MVFC/Big Sky/SOCON deserves to get into the playoffs for going 6-5 you're looney.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It still seems empty without Ivy participation, at least to us in the northeast.

[darell1976]

I don't like the semifinals being at neutral sites. I do like seeding the top 8 in a 24 team format. This means that all winners of the opening weekend games will be playing on the road for their second game and allows all top 8 teams to sell tickets for two weeks leading up to the game.

With 24 teams I hope they give the Pioneer an autobid. This would make the FCS playoffs a truly national tournament as every team in the subdivision controls their own destiny from week one. And honestly if you really think the 6th best team in the CAA or the 5th best team in the MVFC/Big Sky/SOCON deserves to get into the playoffs for going 6-5 you're looney.

Has a team made the playoffs under 7 wins? Seems like more teams could get in at 6-5 or 6-6 in 12 game years.

[Professor Chaos]

Has a team made the playoffs under 7 wins? Seems like more teams could get in at 6-5 or 6-6 in 12 game years.
Not yet but if they do expand to 24 it'll happen. With 24 teams in the playoffs and an extra 3-4 at large bids this past year a 6-4 Delaware would've likely been in.

[bojeta]

Would an expanded field pave the way for a Pioneer auto-bid?

At 24 teams, why not?



Probably because a 4-7 last place Great West team (which did not get a bid period) utterly destroyed the Pioneer League champion. The level of competition is just not there in the Pioneer League.

[darell1976]

Probably because a 4-7 last place Great West team (which did not get a bid period) utterly destroyed the Pioneer League champion. The level of competition is just not there in the Pioneer League.

And we shutout the other 9-2 PFL team (16-0 over Drake).

[LakesBison]

playoffs should stay with current set up, too many crap teams will get in at 24, lame!

[Professor Chaos]

Probably because a 4-7 last place Great West team (which did not get a bid period) utterly destroyed the Pioneer League champion. The level of competition is just not there in the Pioneer League.
And two years ago a PFL team beat the champ from an autobid league (Robert Morris of the NEC). There's no disputing that the PFL is a bad conference but what's the harm in giving it's champ an autobid rather than giving another at large bid to a team with 4 or 5 losses from a better conference? As an FCS fan, I relish the fact that the FCS postseason system is everything that the BC$ is not. Giving every FCS league an autobid epitomizes the antithesis of the asinine BC$ system of deciding a championship.

You could argue that if the PFL wants to be treated like a true FCS conference they should offer athletic scholarships. Well, I'll argue that if the NCAA wants to treat them differently because of that they should force them to play D3 football with other non-scholly schools. The precedent has already been set that just because you're a D1 school in one sport doesn't mean you have to be D1 in all sports (see Hockey). You could argue that PFL teams do nothing to prove that they belong in the postseason with the schedule they play. I'll argue that a team that goes 4-4 in a "power conference" and 6-5 overall hasn't proven they're any more qualified for postseason play.

In the grand scheme of things a 10-1 or 9-2 PFL team has about the same chance to win a national championship as a 6-5 CAA/SOCON/BSC/MVFC team, and that's little to none. So as long as the bubble teams continue to have such mediocre seasons I'll be a proponent of a PFL autobid if the playoffs go to 24 teams.

[dgtw]

I don't like the semifinals being at neutral sites. I do like seeding the top 8 in a 24 team format. This means that all winners of the opening weekend games will be playing on the road for their second game and allows all top 8 teams to sell tickets for two weeks leading up to the game.

With 24 teams I hope they give the Pioneer an autobid. This would make the FCS playoffs a truly national tournament as every team in the subdivision controls their own destiny from week one. And honestly if you really think the 6th best team in the CAA or the 5th best team in the MVFC/Big Sky/SOCON deserves to get into the playoffs for going 6-5 you're looney.

I agree with a 24 team bracket you should seed the top eight teams and set the brackets accordingly. I also support the Pioneer getting an autobid. Don't complain the BCS locks out certain teams if you are going to do the same thing.


It still seems empty without Ivy participation, at least to us in the northeast.

And whose fault is that?

[bojeta]

And two years ago a PFL team beat the champ from an autobid league (Robert Morris of the NEC). There's no disputing that the PFL is a bad conference but what's the harm in giving it's champ an autobid rather than giving another at large bid to a team with 4 or 5 losses from a better conference? As an FCS fan, I relish the fact that the FCS postseason system is everything that the BC$ is not. Giving every FCS league an autobid epitomizes the antithesis of the asinine BC$ system of deciding a championship.

You could argue that if the PFL wants to be treated like a true FCS conference they should offer athletic scholarships. Well, I'll argue that if the NCAA wants to treat them differently because of that they should force them to play D3 football with other non-scholly schools. The precedent has already been set that just because you're a D1 school in one sport doesn't mean you have to be D1 in all sports (see Hockey). You could argue that PFL teams do nothing to prove that they belong in the postseason with the schedule they play. I'll argue that a team that goes 4-4 in a "power conference" and 6-5 overall hasn't proven they're any more qualified for postseason play.

In the grand scheme of things a 10-1 or 9-2 PFL team has about the same chance to win a national championship as a 6-5 CAA/SOCON/BSC/MVFC team, and that's little to none. So as long as the bubble teams continue to have such mediocre seasons I'll be a proponent of a PFL autobid if the playoffs go to 24 teams.

I think you hit on the real issue; pay to play. I remember when UCSB had to drop football because of the NCAA ruling that you do HAVE TO BE DI in ALL SPORTS. The UCSB staff frantically searched for schools that would join them in creating a DI AAA (non-scholarship) conference. San Diego is one of the schools they approached and were turned down. Later, SD did just that (DI with No scholarships) in the Pioneer League. Northridge, Fullerton and Pacific were approached as well. SD wanted to keep football and avoid the cost of scholarships. Ultimately, their outrageous national footprint has surely negated the scholarship savings. The result is a terribly weak conference. "Bubble teams" that schedule tough opponents in and out of strong conferences should be, by your logic, penalized for doing things right! I agree, they are unlikely to win a national title, but they've paid the price both financially and in blood to have the chance. Even then they rarely get it (no team without 7 DI wins has made the playoffs to date).

[MplsBison]

And two years ago a PFL team beat the champ from an autobid league (Robert Morris of the NEC). There's no disputing that the PFL is a bad conference but what's the harm in giving it's champ an autobid rather than giving another at large bid to a team with 4 or 5 losses from a better conference? As an FCS fan, I relish the fact that the FCS postseason system is everything that the BC$ is not. Giving every FCS league an autobid epitomizes the antithesis of the asinine BC$ system of deciding a championship.

You could argue that if the PFL wants to be treated like a true FCS conference they should offer athletic scholarships. Well, I'll argue that if the NCAA wants to treat them differently because of that they should force them to play D3 football with other non-scholly schools. The precedent has already been set that just because you're a D1 school in one sport doesn't mean you have to be D1 in all sports (see Hockey). You could argue that PFL teams do nothing to prove that they belong in the postseason with the schedule they play. I'll argue that a team that goes 4-4 in a "power conference" and 6-5 overall hasn't proven they're any more qualified for postseason play.

In the grand scheme of things a 10-1 or 9-2 PFL team has about the same chance to win a national championship as a 6-5 CAA/SOCON/BSC/MVFC team, and that's little to none. So as long as the bubble teams continue to have such mediocre seasons I'll be a proponent of a PFL autobid if the playoffs go to 24 teams.

Not even close. Give me the 6 win team any day.

The TV execs, for what little they care about the FCS playoffs, agree with me as well.


Should the playoffs add a 6 win team like JMU, Delaware, Montana, etc. or should they add Drake, a small private school in Iowa?

Come on...not a hard one.


Look - if the Pioneer gets an autobid then it just confirms that FCS is nothing but DII with more scholarships and it deserves to be treated as such by the big boys in the business world of college football. Think small, be small.

[henfan]

Many of these seem like lamebrained ideas to put the FCS playoffs further in the red. If you take away the possibility of teams hosting additional rounds in favor of neutral sites, the post-season becomes that less attractive to several schools

And to vote as the committee chair a guy whose school has already declared their intentions to move out of the FCS... wow, just wow. This subdivision really lacks a unified vision and cohesive leadership.

[asumike83]

Maybe I'm just a stick in the mud, but I am opposed to playoff expansion or an auto-bid for the Pioneer. Not that Pioneer teams shouldn't be considered for an at-large if they play good OOC competition but I just can't get behind giving a bid to a team for winning a non-scholarship conference even if the expansion does happen. I think 16 teams was just fine, although I seem to be in the minority on that.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think you hit on the real issue; pay to play. I remember when UCSB had to drop football because of the NCAA ruling that you do HAVE TO BE DI in ALL SPORTS. The UCSB staff frantically searched for schools that would join them in creating a DI AAA (non-scholarship) conference. San Diego is one of the schools they approached and were turned down. Later, SD did just that (DI with No scholarships) in the Pioneer League. Northridge, Fullerton and Pacific were approached as well. SD wanted to keep football and avoid the cost of scholarships. Ultimately, their outrageous national footprint has surely negated the scholarship savings. The result is a terribly weak conference. "Bubble teams" that schedule tough opponents in and out of strong conferences should be, by your logic, penalized for doing things right! I agree, they are unlikely to win a national title, but they've paid the price both financially and in blood to have the chance. Even then they rarely get it (no team without 7 DI wins has made the playoffs to date).

Didn't even see ya mention Long Beach. Seems like their could be a good number of schools in CA that could bring back football in the area with no schollies and make travel easier on everyone in the PFL by creating two divisions. I don't really know that there is much of a call for it but I remember even when LB closed it down it killed a lot of spirit at the school if I remember correctly.

Would it be at all feasible if you had no scholly for a west division made up of:
San Diego
LBSU
Fullerton
CS Northridge
UOP
UCSB

Don't know what the situation is at all of those places. But if something like that did come about then Humbolt would probably look to it as a viable option as well...ah, I am ill informed cuz if you come up with something that looks easy you are wrong.

Help a brother out bojey and learn me some things.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Maybe I'm just a stick in the mud, but I am opposed to playoff expansion or an auto-bid for the Pioneer. Not that Pioneer teams shouldn't be considered for an at-large if they play good OOC competition but I just can't get behind giving a bid to a team for winning a non-scholarship conference even if the expansion does happen. I think 16 teams was just fine, although I seem to be in the minority on that.

I liked 16 and I may seem like a proponent of expansion but what it really is 83 is that I see a fairly equal amount of benefits to either way it is done. If we're panning for gold analogy and all that...

[bojeta]

Didn't even see ya mention Long Beach. Seems like their could be a good number of schools in CA that could bring back football in the area with no schollies and make travel easier on everyone in the PFL by creating two divisions. I don't really know that there is much of a call for it but I remember even when LB closed it down it killed a lot of spirit at the school if I remember correctly.

Would it be at all feasible if you had no scholly for a west division made up of:
San Diego
LBSU
Fullerton
CS Northridge
UOP
UCSB

Don't know what the situation is at all of those places. But if something like that did come about then Humbolt would probably look to it as a viable option as well...ah, I am ill informed cuz if you come up with something that looks easy you are wrong.

Help a brother out bojey and learn me some things.

What you've suggested has been thrown around a bit in these parts as well. There are currently "Bring Back Football" movements at Long Beach, Northridge, Fullerton, UCSB, UC Riverside and Pacific. I think it would be quite workable as another FCS non schollie conference. With SD joining, they'd have 7 teams and could pick up OOC games with Cal Poly, Davis and Sac along with a DII game with Humboldt, Azusa etc. and they'd never have to leave the state. A lot of the arguments raised against bringing back football at these schools comes from fanatical soccer fans who see the sport as a threat to their new foothold on campuses. There is also the Title I issue. There has been a small amount of talk about bringing them back as club teams, and UCSB was actually quite successful at that, however, that was in the day when you could have one sport at DII, DIII etc. UCSB won a high percentage of games as a club and then moved to DIII and then DII when the NCAA rule came out that forced them to either go DI or drop football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Many of these seem like lamebrained ideas to put the FCS playoffs further in the red. If you take away the possibility of teams hosting additional rounds in favor of neutral sites, the post-season becomes that less attractive to several schools

And to vote as the committee chair a guy whose school has already declared their intentions to move out of the FCS... wow, just wow. This subdivision really lacks a unified vision and cohesive leadership.

An interesting sidebar to this is the fact that arguably the best, and inarguably one of the two best, semifinal games in history was when Montana played Appalachian State in that snowstorm in Missoula in 2009 - on Mr. O'Day's watch. Would it have been the same had it been played in, say, the UNIDome? Never mind that the other semi on the other side of the bracket was Villanova/William and Mary.

The more I think about it, maybe neutral sites for the semis don't make sense at this level. App State/Furman was another semifinal that would have been so, so different had it been played on a neutral field. Add to that the added cost for the schools, and it's worth wondering if it's worth it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Play the eastern regional games at Ivy League sites and force them all to watch.

[Professor Chaos]

I think you hit on the real issue; pay to play. I remember when UCSB had to drop football because of the NCAA ruling that you do HAVE TO BE DI in ALL SPORTS. The UCSB staff frantically searched for schools that would join them in creating a DI AAA (non-scholarship) conference. San Diego is one of the schools they approached and were turned down. Later, SD did just that (DI with No scholarships) in the Pioneer League. Northridge, Fullerton and Pacific were approached as well. SD wanted to keep football and avoid the cost of scholarships. Ultimately, their outrageous national footprint has surely negated the scholarship savings. The result is a terribly weak conference. "Bubble teams" that schedule tough opponents in and out of strong conferences should be, by your logic, penalized for doing things right! I agree, they are unlikely to win a national title, but they've paid the price both financially and in blood to have the chance. Even then they rarely get it (no team without 7 DI wins has made the playoffs to date).
I respect that opinion about giving the schools that invest in the product the postseason opportunity but I disagree with it to a certain extent. I may be naive and too much of a purist but I don't like the notion that teams can buy their way into the postseason. The realist in me accepts that though, and without it NDSU probably wouldn't have made the playoffs in 2010.

However, I think there's plenty of spots in a 24 team field available for the schools who have tough schedules, both in and out of conference, to make the field if they do reasonably well with those schedules. I don't agree with penalizing teams for playing tough schedules and I don't think they will be with a 24 team field or are today with a 20 team field. JMU and EKU lost 4 games and still made the field. It's very likely that with 24 playoff teams this year there would've been several 6 win teams (like a Delaware, Indiana St, Youngstown St, Portland St, or Furman) that would've been in the field even with a PFL autobid.

I have the same stance in the NCAA tournament. I'd much rather see a team like Drexel make it who went 16-2 in a resonably tough CAA than a team like Northwestern who went 8-10 in an ultra tough Big Ten. Northwestern had numerous chances to prove they belonged and didn't do it so why should they be rewarded with an at-large bid while schools that didn't have that chance but dominated their league schedule are not? Those FCS power conference teams who lose 4 games in conference controlled their own destiny for postseason eligibility but couldn't do it. They even had some room for error. What I'm supporting is giving the PFL teams the chance to control their own postseason destiny, even if it is without any room for error.

[MTfan4life]

I don't get why it's so big of a deal that "crap" teams would make the playoffs at 24 teams. Who cares? The NCAA Basketball title isn't liked less because they include all those crap 16 seeds. Each conference that wants an opportunity gets an opportunity. No reason to for MplsBison and company to get their panties in a bundle just because Dayton lost out in the first round of the playoffs. The strongest teams will come out of it anyways. Having a larger field is more entertaining as a whole and actually makes the round of 16 much more legitimate than it used to be. The elitists can complain all they want, the only thing that gets watered down is the statistic of having made the playoffs. Beyond that, it's all beneficial to the majority.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I think you hit on the real issue; pay to play. I remember when UCSB had to drop football because of the NCAA ruling that you do HAVE TO BE DI in ALL SPORTS. The UCSB staff frantically searched for schools that would join them in creating a DI AAA (non-scholarship) conference. San Diego is one of the schools they approached and were turned down. Later, SD did just that (DI with No scholarships) in the Pioneer League. Northridge, Fullerton and Pacific were approached as well. SD wanted to keep football and avoid the cost of scholarships. Ultimately, their outrageous national footprint has surely negated the scholarship savings. The result is a terribly weak conference. "Bubble teams" that schedule tough opponents in and out of strong conferences should be, by your logic, penalized for doing things right! I agree, they are unlikely to win a national title, but they've paid the price both financially and in blood to have the chance. Even then they rarely get it (no team without 7 DI wins has made the playoffs to date).

UCSB has close to 20,000 undergrads. It isn't some tiny private school, they could afford to field a scholarship DI football team if they wanted to. That being said, I do agree that schools should be able to field teams in different divisions concurrently.

As far as the PFL goes - give them their bid. If they lose, they lose, but every now and again they might manage to win a game or two in the tournament. Just being able to play in the postseason might help the PFL schools attract better recruits.

[tourguide]

I don't get why it's so big of a deal that "crap" teams would make the playoffs at 24 teams. Who cares? The NCAA Basketball title isn't liked less because they include all those crap 16 seeds. Each conference that wants an opportunity gets an opportunity. No reason to for MplsBison and company to get their panties in a bundle just because Dayton lost out in the first round of the playoffs. The strongest teams will come out of it anyways. Having a larger field is more entertaining as a whole and actually makes the round of 16 much more legitimate than it used to be. The elitists can complain all they want, the only thing that gets watered down is the statistic of having made the playoffs. Beyond that, it's all beneficial to the majority.

i agree with this, however my opinion would change dramatically if (like in basketball) they start giving autobids to these conferences.

[RichH2]

Play the eastern regional games at Ivy League sites and force them all to watch.


Just to be b*tchy we should make them pay for it also

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just to be b*tchy we should make them pay for it also

xnodx That goes without saying . . . .

[asumike83]

I respect that opinion about giving the schools that invest in the product the postseason opportunity but I disagree with it to a certain extent. I may be naive and too much of a purist but I don't like the notion that teams can buy their way into the postseason.

I understand your viewpoint but to me, it's not about buying your way in to the postseason. It is about programs showing that they are willing to make some sort of commitment to football before they get auto-bid status. I just feel like a non-scholarship program should have to schedule tough OOC opponents and prove they belong as an at-large to get in. I just can't get behind giving a bid rewarding a conference title to a team that does not give football scholarships or prove themselves against programs that do.

I know there could be years that a non-scholarship team could compete with scholarship programs (and if they prove that in their OOC games, they deserve consideration) but it is not the norm. If you want to compete for championships and you will not or cannot give scholarships, schedule aggressively and prove your worth on the field.

[danefan]

I understand your viewpoint but to me, it's not about buying your way in to the postseason. It is about programs showing that they are willing to make some sort of commitment to football before they get auto-bid status. I just feel like a non-scholarship program should have to schedule tough OOC opponents and prove they belong as an at-large to get in. I just can't get behind giving a bid rewarding a conference title to a team that does not give football scholarships or prove themselves against programs that do.

I know there could be years that a non-scholarship team could compete with scholarship programs (and if they prove that in their OOC games, they deserve consideration) but it is not the norm. If you want to compete for championships and you will not or cannot give scholarships, schedule aggressively and prove your worth on the field.

You are saying that you are alright with buying your way into the playoffs. Under your logic all the PFL would need to do is spend the money and offer scholarships. Maybe its not paying the NCAA but putting any spending requirement on football to get into the playoffs is buying your way in. And btw, its completely contrary to why this level of football was formed in the first place......cost containment. Sometimes that point is lost. FCS is cost containment football.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I just feel like a non-scholarship program should have to schedule tough OOC opponents and prove they belong as an at-large to get in.

This was used as a bar to prevent NEC and Big South schools from the playoffs for years.

They'd schedule the tough OOC opponents, and then folks said, "Yeah, they played them close, but they need to beat them".

Then, they'd schedule teams like Delaware, Lehigh and Georgia Southern, and beat them, and then folks said, "Yeah, but they need to beat these teams on a regular basis."

The point is, nobody really knows how well the PFL teams would do in the playoffs because they're not in the playoffs. Also, there's nothing like facing a first-round drubbing by Appalachian State to focus minds and figure out a way to win football games.

Everyone assumed the Patriot League would routinely get creamed in the playoffs once they got their autobid. Two years after getting it, they beat the Atlantic 10 champions on the road (Richmond) and gave eventual national champion UMass everything they could handle in a 26-21 loss.

The PL obviously doesn't always do that well in the playoffs, but they unquestionably have been competitive in the majority of cases, with a very good number of wins. Compare that with the records of the OVC and MEAC in the last 10-15 years, and it isn't even close.

[aceinthehole]

The PFL will get an AQ - just like the the NEC/Big South, it won't be a case of if, but when.

The reason is simple - EQUAL ACCESS.

It is the same reason very conference earns an AQ to all the other NCAA championships. Sponsor the sport, have enough conference members, and you're in - period.

[kdinva]

The PFL will get an AQ - just like the the NEC/Big South, it won't be a case of if, but when.

The reason is simple - EQUAL ACCESS.

Give the Pioneer an AQ, and see what happens on the field.............w/13 at larges, the heck with the "balance". 24 makes more sense than 22 teams in the field.......

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I understand your viewpoint but to me, it's not about buying your way in to the postseason. It is about programs showing that they are willing to make some sort of commitment to football before they get auto-bid status. I just feel like a non-scholarship program should have to schedule tough OOC opponents and prove they belong as an at-large to get in. I just can't get behind giving a bid rewarding a conference title to a team that does not give football scholarships or prove themselves against programs that do.

I know there could be years that a non-scholarship team could compete with scholarship programs (and if they prove that in their OOC games, they deserve consideration) but it is not the norm. If you want to compete for championships and you will not or cannot give scholarships, schedule aggressively and prove your worth on the field.

It seems like the end game for most is to see the league start offering scholarships. Exluding them will not do this. Letting them decide to do it on their own is a more likely way to let them see that there is value in competing in the playoffs. If they get a little taste of the excitement then it will build support for that program(s). They will have a very tough time competing for a while and at some point with more fans and a more rabid core they may have the notion that financially supporting it is good for the AD and University overall.

Not only that but there are teams in areas where more fans will become familiar with the playoffs and some are gonna follow it. More fans more better...more TV clout.

[RichH2]

On the head ursus. Whether they win or lose up to them

[asumike83]

You are saying that you are alright with buying your way into the playoffs. Under your logic all the PFL would need to do is spend the money and offer scholarships. Maybe its not paying the NCAA but putting any spending requirement on football to get into the playoffs is buying your way in. And btw, its completely contrary to why this level of football was formed in the first place......cost containment. Sometimes that point is lost. FCS is cost containment football.

Yes, my original post was pretty poorly worded so I will attempt to clarify. What I meant was that the AQ conference teams are doing more than just buying their way into the playoffs. Along with paying for scholarships, they are testing themselves on the field against good competition that prepares them for the postseason. While budget concerns may be out of a school's control, scheduling good teams out of conference is not. I'd just like to see the best possible teams in the playoffs and if the only competition a team has faced is non-scholarship FCS and DII, that is a hard argument to make.

In looking at the past 5 Pioneer League champions, the only team that I think was a realistic playoff candidate was Dayton in '07. If you look at the next year, Jacksonville won the conference in a season they lost to a DII team and took a 50-point beating in Boone. In 2011, the team that would have taken the auto-bid was blown out by the last place team in the Great West. I know this is not always the case for the conference and they should be considered more seriously for at-large bids if they earn it but at this point, I just do not think their on-field product is where it needs to be to have AQ status. My opinion is obviously not a popular one and it is very likely they will get their auto-bid. Maybe they can prove me wrong when the time comes.

[asumike83]

It seems like the end game for most is to see the league start offering scholarships. Exluding them will not do this. Letting them decide to do it on their own is a more likely way to let them see that there is value in competing in the playoffs. If they get a little taste of the excitement then it will build support for that program(s). They will have a very tough time competing for a while and at some point with more fans and a more rabid core they may have the notion that financially supporting it is good for the AD and University overall.

Not only that but there are teams in areas where more fans will become familiar with the playoffs and some are gonna follow it. More fans more better...more TV clout.

It is possible and I could see that happening if these teams were going to host playoff games and get their fans involved but realistically, that is not going to happen. It will be a lot of opening round trips to Boone, Missoula, Statesboro, Fargo or other places that are not likely to produce results that will have boosters lining up at the AD's office.

I will just agree to disagree with the majority on this one. Maybe my point of view is skewed after seeing the '08 Pioneer champion in person or like I said, maybe I'm just a stick in the mud.

[MplsBison]

You are saying that you are alright with buying your way into the playoffs. Under your logic all the PFL would need to do is spend the money and offer scholarships. Maybe its not paying the NCAA but putting any spending requirement on football to get into the playoffs is buying your way in. And btw, its completely contrary to why this level of football was formed in the first place......cost containment. Sometimes that point is lost. FCS is cost containment football.

It's a simple matter of strength of schedule. MVFC, SoCon, CAA, etc. can get away with a garbage non-conference (and really have to) because the conf games are everything and they are brutal.

Going 8-0 in the Pioneer League literally means nothing.

[MplsBison]

It seems like the end game for most is to see the league start offering scholarships. Exluding them will not do this. Letting them decide to do it on their own is a more likely way to let them see that there is value in competing in the playoffs. If they get a little taste of the excitement then it will build support for that program(s). They will have a very tough time competing for a while and at some point with more fans and a more rabid core they may have the notion that financially supporting it is good for the AD and University overall.

Not only that but there are teams in areas where more fans will become familiar with the playoffs and some are gonna follow it. More fans more better...more TV clout.

'Excluding them will not do this' ----- TOO FRIGGIN BAD!!


Would you really explain that "well, I just couldn't deny my son that video game that he was screaming and kicking for....excluding it from him wasn't going to get the lawn mowed". Bulls**!!

If they want the playoffs bad enough, they'll get their rears in gear. If not - and they seem content without - then just let them set there!!



I'm the old guy from the movie Fargo on this!! "NO JEAN - NO MONEY!"

That's how you should all be too.

[MplsBison]

You know the most pathetic thing to me on this whole Pioneer AQ deal --- at least as far as AGS goes --- it's not even the Pioneer fans who are clamoring for this!!!

It's all fans of schools not in the Pioneer who want to shove an AQ for that non-scholarship league don't the rest of our throats. Why?!??!?!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

'Excluding them will not do this' ----- TOO FRIGGIN BAD!!


Would you really explain that "well, I just couldn't deny my son that video game that he was screaming and kicking for....excluding it from him wasn't going to get the lawn mowed". Bulls**!!

If they want the playoffs bad enough, they'll get their rears in gear. If not - and they seem content without - then just let them set there!!



I'm the old guy from the movie Fargo on this!! "NO JEAN - NO MONEY!"

That's how you should all be too.

That's your whole problem most of the time Mpls you look at it as a punishment instead of being inclusive. Plus your analogy is ****ing stupid. The point I was making is more along the lines of when you go to Costco and they are handing out tasters. 1/2 the time you say "man, that's pretty good, I think I'll buy a box of those". They give a little incentive and sales go up. Try and be less of an emotional moron.

[MplsBison]

That's your whole problem most of the time Mpls you look at it as a punishment instead of being inclusive. Plus your analogy is ****ing stupid. The point I was making is more along the lines of when you go to Costco and they are handing out tasters. 1/2 the time you say "man, that's pretty good, I think I'll buy a box of those". They give a little incentive and sales go up. Try and be less of an emotional moron.

Nope, you have the completely wrong analogy. Obviously, painfully wrong: spots in the playoffs are not just handed out like free samples to anyone who walks by the booth!!!!!

Geez...


I bet you'd be just fine going on campus to explain to the Montana seniors why they didn't get a shot at the playoffs because they went 8-3 while a 10-1 Pioneer team got the last spot, only playing a single top 25 team (the only loss, of course). Yep I'm sure they'd go right along with your "lets all hold hands" crap.

[danefan]

It's a simple matter of strength of schedule. MVFC, SoCon, CAA, etc. can get away with a garbage non-conference (and really have to) because the conf games are everything and they are brutal.

Going 8-0 in the Pioneer League literally means nothing.

AQ's have nothing to do with non-conference schedules.

Separate the AQ from an At-large. The analyses are completely different.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Nope, you have the completely wrong analogy. Obviously, painfully wrong: spots in the playoffs are not just handed out like free samples to anyone who walks by the booth!!!!!

Geez...


I bet you'd be just fine going on campus to explain to the Montana seniors why they didn't get a shot at the playoffs because they went 8-3 while a 10-1 Pioneer team got the last spot, only playing a single top 25 team (the only loss, of course). Yep I'm sure they'd go right along with your "lets all hold hands" crap.

I wouldn't feel the need to talk about it. I'm sure they would already know they had the one solid shot of making it by winning the conference. Anything else and you left it to chance.

In case you hadn't noticed those conversations already go on. They would have much, much less validity in the set up of 24 with one more team than they have now...and it doesn't happen that 8 D1 wins in a power conference gets left out even in the current situation.

You really have trouble thinking logically don't you? I'll help ya where I can slick.

[MplsBison]

AQ's have nothing to do with non-conference schedules.

Separate the AQ from an At-large. The analyses are completely different.

For existing AQ, of course.

For those conferences seeking a new AQ - the qualification is the exact same analysis as earning an at-large. Nice try though.

[danefan]

For existing AQ, of course.

For those conferences seeking a new AQ - the qualification is the exact same analysis as earning an at-large. Nice try though.

For replacing a conference that has an AQ that is the analysis.

The PFL isn't replacing anyone's AQ, nor should it.

Nice try.

[MplsBison]

I wouldn't feel the need to talk about it. I'm sure they would already know they had the one solid shot of making it by winning the conference. Anything else and you left it to chance.

In case you hadn't noticed those conversations already go on. They would have much, much less validity in the set up of 24 with one more team than they have now...and it doesn't happen that 8 D1 wins in a power conference gets left out even in the current situation.

You really have trouble thinking logically don't you? I'll help ya where I can slick.

Nice try, you can't weasel your way out.

You are saying perfectly clear: it is acceptable to me to sacrifice the playoff spot of a deserving, much more competitive team from the Big Sky so that an undeserving, uncompetitive Pioneer team can get in.

If that's the way you want to play it, fine. Big Sky loses a team so the Pioneer gets in. As long as it's the Big Sky - ain't my problem.

[danefan]

Nice try, you can't weasel your way out.

You are saying perfectly clear: it is acceptable to me to sacrifice the playoff spot of a deserving, much more competitive team from the Big Sky so that an undeserving, uncompetitive Pioneer team can get in.

If that's the way you want to play it, fine. Big Sky loses a team so the Pioneer gets in. As long as it's the Big Sky - ain't my problem.

There is no spot being sacrificed. Adding the PFL is actually adding additional spots for the Big Sky.

Pay attention.

[MplsBison]

There is no spot being sacrificed. Adding the PFL is actually adding additional spots for the Big Sky.

Pay attention.

Going to 24 adds spots for the Big Sky.

There never was nor is any such requirement to add PFL AQ in order to go to 24. Nice try

[MplsBison]

For replacing a conference that has an AQ that is the analysis.

The PFL isn't replacing anyone's AQ, nor should it.

Nice try.

Nope, any conference that wants an AQ at any time for any reason needs that analysis.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

There is no spot being sacrificed. Adding the PFL is actually adding additional spots for the Big Sky.

Pay attention.

He's a really thick skulled, emotional dude. He doesn't see the folly of his ideas DF so just try and help him where you can.

Trying to determine the fairness of mediocrity in either a BSC, MVFC, middle of the packer, or a PFL champ is just silly. He actually said that one is more deserving than the other.

[asumike83]

Trying to determine the fairness of mediocrity in either a BSC, MVFC, middle of the packer, or a PFL champ is just silly. He actually said that one is more deserving than the other.

I hate to beat the point into the ground and this is the last thing I'll say about it, but look at the PFL co-champs this year. One got blown out by the last place team in the Great West. The other played two DII schools, one was a 4-point win and the other went to OT. I would expect any 7-win team from the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky or MVFC to handle all those opponents with ease. I don't want to sound like an elitist but from the perspective of on-field quality, I just don't see it.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I hate to beat the point into the ground and this is the last thing I'll say about it, but look at the PFL co-champs this year. One got blown out by the last place team in the Great West. The other played two DII schools, one was a 4-point win and the other went to OT. I would expect any 7-win team from the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky or MVFC to handle all those opponents with ease. I don't want to sound like an elitist but from the perspective of on-field quality, I just don't see it.

I should have addressed this the last time you pointed it out but I agree with what you say. They have been that way, so have middle of the pack and even good teams in power conferences. The point I'm looking at is that you are looking at things in the rear view mirror which is the road we've traveled and it is not impressive. I'm looking at it as what it can be if they get the chance to play for something and catch the excitement by being included.

I am very confident that you are correct that if they go to App, Montana, etc.. that they would get waxed with regularity in the begining and possibly even for a while. It already happens to the MEAC but at some point they will increase their commitment to not getting their *** beat cuz it's not fun. It's also doubtful that any good team is ever even gonna see them because the middle of the pack team from the MVFC, or BSC will likely host them while the good teams are watching with a week off. If they were to win or host a playoff game then I think we all know the excitement that brings. Excitement bring fans, money, etc..

The upside to adding one team and motivating a whole conference to work harder to be that one team seems to far outweigh the negative that one mediocre team didn't get that at large when they already had several other chances to be there.

I do not disagree with the facts you state. I disagree that the downside is anything more than a very small issue.

[asumike83]

I should have addressed this the last time you pointed it out but I agree with what you say. They have been that way, so have middle of the pack and even good teams in power conferences. The point I'm looking at is that you are looking at things in the rear view mirror which is the road we've traveled and it is not impressive. I'm looking at it as what it can be if they get the chance to play for something and catch the excitement by being included.

I am very confident that you are correct that if they go to App, Montana, etc.. that they would get waxed with regularity in the begining and possibly even for a while. It already happens to the MEAC but at some point they will increase their commitment to not getting their *** beat cuz it's not fun. It's also doubtful that any good team is ever even gonna see them because the middle of the pack team from the MVFC, or BSC will likely host them while the good teams are watching with a week off. If they were to win or host a playoff game then I think we all know the excitement that brings. Excitement bring fans, money, etc..

The upside to adding one team and motivating a whole conference to work harder to be that one team seems to far outweigh the negative that one mediocre team didn't get that at large when they already had several other chances to be there.

I do not disagree with the facts you state. I disagree that the downside is anything more than a very small issue.

If I'm a 7-4 team from a power conference that is left out, I am pissed but I see your point. Touché... xchinscratchx

[aceinthehole]

I hate to beat the point into the ground and this is the last thing I'll say about it, but look at the PFL co-champs this year. One got blown out by the last place team in the Great West. The other played two DII schools, one was a 4-point win and the other went to OT. I would expect any 7-win team from the SoCon, CAA, Big Sky or MVFC to handle all those opponents with ease. I don't want to sound like an elitist but from the perspective of on-field quality, I just don't see it.

The reason the PFL deserves an AQ is the same reason why Western Carolina (17-18, RPI 219) was nearly the SoCon's representative in March Madness. Every conference is afforded a AQ to NCAA championships.

[Professor Chaos]

If I'm a 7-4 team from a power conference that is left out, I am pissed but I see your point. Touché... xchinscratchx
And if that would happen I'd agree with you. However, I don't think that'll be the case with 13 at large bids. Take your 4 traditional power conferences over the last few years and the number of teams altogether with 7 D1 wins.

2011: 13 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.
2010: 12 overall including 8 at large teams. All made the playoffs.
2009: 12 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.
2008: 15 overall including 7 at large teams. 4 missed the playoffs but this was a 12 game season and 2 of those teams were 7-5.
2007: 13 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.

With 13 at large bids available a 7-4 team from one of the big 4 conferences will be in. Even with that you'll have an additional 4 at large selections after that on average for teams from the other conferences or even 6 win teams. I'm not trying to ram a PFL autobid down the throat of the playoff field, I'm just saying that when you get to the bubble teams in a 24 team field you're looking at some incredibly mediocre teams. The NCAA allows the PFL to classify themselves as a D1 conference so I think they should get an autobid into the D1 Football Championship when you have 24 spots available for just 11 conferences.

[asumike83]

And if that would happen I'd agree with you. However, I don't think that'll be the case with 13 at large bids. Take your 4 traditional power conferences over the last few years and the number of teams altogether with 7 D1 wins.

2011: 13 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.
2010: 12 overall including 8 at large teams. All made the playoffs.
2009: 12 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.
2008: 15 overall including 7 at large teams. 4 missed the playoffs but this was a 12 game season and 2 of those teams were 7-5.
2007: 13 overall including 8 at large teams. 1 missed the playoffs.

With 13 at large bids available a 7-4 team from one of the big 4 conferences will be in. Even with that you'll have an additional 4 at large selections after that on average for teams from the other conferences or even 6 win teams. I'm not trying to ram a PFL autobid down the throat of the playoff field, I'm just saying that when you get to the bubble teams in a 24 team field you're looking at some incredibly mediocre teams. The NCAA allows the PFL to classify themselves as a D1 conference so I think they should get an autobid into the D1 Football Championship when you have 24 spots available for just 11 conferences.

Your logic and numbers make a lot of sense regarding how slim the likelihood is of the PFL team taking a bid from a 7-win team in a power conference. The bolded part, however, is why I oppose expansion to 24 to begin with. It wouldn't be the end of the world and it's not like I'd be picketing outside Jim O'Day's office if it happened, but I just don't want a watered down product.

[asumike83]

The reason the PFL deserves an AQ is the same reason why Western Carolina (17-18, RPI 219) was nearly the SoCon's representative in March Madness. Every conference is afforded a AQ to NCAA championships.

With the exception of the Ivy League (which is a different animal all together), are any of the Division I basketball conferences non-scholarship?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Your logic and numbers make a lot of sense regarding how slim the likelihood is of the PFL team taking a bid from a 7-win team in a power conference. The bolded part, however, is why I oppose expansion to 24 to begin with. It wouldn't be the end of the world and it's not like I'd be picketing outside Jim O'Day's office if it happened, but I just don't want a watered down product.

The final product is as pure as it ever has been. You still get down to the best 16 (with more purity due to a once in a while good team being overlooked), then 8, 4, 2, and the NC.

Still can't see how the ultimate outcome is degraded in any way?

[MplsBison]

The reason the PFL deserves an AQ is the same reason why Western Carolina (17-18, RPI 219) was nearly the SoCon's representative in March Madness. Every conference is afforded a AQ to NCAA championships.

Fail

Western Carolina offers the same number of scholarship equivalencies as every other DI MBB team.

[MplsBison]

The final product is as pure as it ever has been. You still get down to the best 16 (with more purity due to a once in a while good team being overlooked), then 8, 4, 2, and the NC.

Still can't see how the ultimate outcome is degraded in any way?

No one said it would be - you're argument is a red herring.

The point is that the playoffs as an overall, marketable product are a better product if they do not include non-scholarship teams.

[asumike83]

The final product is as pure as it ever has been. You still get down to the best 16 (with more purity due to a once in a while good team being overlooked), then 8, 4, 2, and the NC.

Still can't see how the ultimate outcome is degraded in any way?

The final outcome would likely never be degraded, I agree with you there. My opinion is just that it will water down the overall product. When a league's champion is beaten or even played closely by sub DI competition or embarrassed by scholarship FCS programs, you are likely to see some very lopsided scores when they play the battle-tested FCS teams. Without scholarship athletes, it is just not a level playing field.

I know I keep going back to the '08 Jacksonville team that won the conference but I remember the game in Boone that year and it was very ugly. A similar outcome in a postseason game would not be good for the FCS in my opinion, especially if it is televised.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

No one said it would be - you're argument is a red herring.

The point is that the playoffs as an overall, marketable product are a better product if they do not include non-scholarship teams.

Not a red herring slick Luther. A fact, in fact. It is zero less marketable and is marketable to more...more marketable.

You try and state your opinion as if they are some sort of evidence. They are not. They are simply not well thought out opinions by an angry, emotional feller.

[danefan]

The final outcome would likely never be degraded, I agree with you there. My opinion is just that it will water down the overall product. When a league's champion is beaten or even played closely by sub DI competition or embarrassed by scholarship FCS programs, you are likely to see some very lopsided scores when they play the battle-tested FCS teams. Without scholarship athletes, it is just not a level playing field.

I know I keep going back to the '08 Jacksonville team that won the conference but I remember the game in Boone that year and it was very ugly. A similar outcome in a postseason game would not be good for the FCS in my opinion, especially if it is televised.

Those blowouts already happen against scholarship teams in the playoffs. See Western Illinois in 2010 or SFA at Montana in 2009.

These same arguments were all made against the NEC and one of the best playoff games played this year was Albany vs Stony Brook.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The final outcome would likely never be degraded, I agree with you there. My opinion is just that it will water down the overall product. When a league's champion is beaten or even played closely by sub DI competition or embarrassed by scholarship FCS programs, you are likely to see some very lopsided scores when they play the battle-tested FCS teams. Without scholarship athletes, it is just not a level playing field.

I know I keep going back to the '08 Jacksonville team that won the conference but I remember the game in Boone that year and it was very ugly. A similar outcome in a postseason game would not be good for the FCS in my opinion, especially if it is televised.

You don't really want me to start cherry picking scores because that could be done against conference opponents that are tested in the same battles do you?

Again, you are looking at what has been but not looking to what could be a good step in the right direction to moving these teams to being more competitive by getting their noses bloodied and gaining experience.

If you only feel like watching the same product we had a few years I get that. Don't waste any time until the 2nd round and you'll have what you always had before.

Pretty unlikely any sort of coverage will start before then anyway so we won't need to worry about the embarassment being widely televised.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

hmm, should have probably not taken that phone call in the middle of that last post.

[asumike83]

You don't really want me to start cherry picking scores because that could be done against conference opponents that are tested in the same battles do you?


Those blowouts already happen against scholarship teams in the playoffs. See Western Illinois in 2010 or SFA at Montana in 2009.

These same arguments were all made against the NEC and one of the best playoff games played this year was Albany vs Stony Brook.

We'll never be able to get rid of all blowouts in the postseason but that doesn't mean we should be setting the table for them either.

It was a great game, I agree. Both those teams also had scholarship athletes on the field. Non-scholarship football is just not the same in my opinion.

You guys, as well as most other folks, disagree with me and that's fine. We will just have to see how it shakes out and if the PFL gets an auto-bid, good luck to them.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

We are talking about one team per year that falls into that category. One possibility to bring about that minimal downside and they will be playing other teams that are at the lesser end of the spectrum with schollies or not.

From our final poll here is what you'd be choosing from:

Indiana State Sycamores
North Dakota Fighting Sioux
Youngstown State Penguins
Jacksonville State Gamecocks
Eastern Kentucky Colonels
Georgetown Hoyas
Bethune-Cookman Wildcats
Duquesne Dukes

Now if you need 4 teams from that group are you gonna have any real issue if it comes down to things like last season? I didn't throw in all the teams just the ones around Duq. Dukes but you get my drift.

[Professor Chaos]

Your logic and numbers make a lot of sense regarding how slim the likelihood is of the PFL team taking a bid from a 7-win team in a power conference. The bolded part, however, is why I oppose expansion to 24 to begin with. It wouldn't be the end of the world and it's not like I'd be picketing outside Jim O'Day's office if it happened, but I just don't want a watered down product.
I'm not adamant about it either, just presenting my opinion. I think 16 was always the best number but I like the fact that some teams now get 2 weeks to sell opening round playoff tickets and don't have to play the Saturday after Thanksgiving. I also like the break between the semis and title game to give fans the opportunity to make travel plans. A 16 team field with everyone having a bye Thanksgiving weekend would be the ideal scenario IMO.

[blukeys]

The final outcome would likely never be degraded, I agree with you there. My opinion is just that it will water down the overall product.

On this point you are quite right. About Once a year I stop by to watch our local D-3 team play. (Technically I am due to be buried across the street from their Field.)

Wesley College annually goes deep in the D-3 playoffs and they have a very good program with some very avid fans.

Years back they scheduled and beat a so called I-AA team from the PFL Well my friends were full of themselves. In all sincerity they asked be how Wesley would fare against UD. The crushed looks on their faces were the result of my telling them that they would be lucky to lose by 40 points. I really hurt their feelings when I informed them that they would lose by 21 to Del State. Their response was that they had just beaten a I-AA team.

Now, I know the Head Coach and some of his assistants at Wesley and if they thought they could compete with a team that is 3 miles away, they would try and schedule a game. But this logic was lost on my Wesley friends. Their view was that they beat a I-AA team (a PFL team) and therefore they could compete against other I-AA teams. In their mind their team was as good as a I-AA team. I know that they considered me a stuck up UD snob. As much as I tried to explain the differences, they only knew one thing. Their D-3 team had beaten a I-AA team. Therefore D-3 is just about as good as I-AA.

Yes the PFL waters down our product. Putting them in the Playoffs only makes it worse. I can imagine my friends explaining to me that their team beat a FCS playoff team!!!!

[MplsBison]

Not a red herring slick Luther. A fact, in fact. It is zero less marketable and is marketable to more...more marketable.

You try and state your opinion as if they are some sort of evidence. They are not. They are simply not well thought out opinions by an angry, emotional feller.

The playoffs are more marketable by keeping App St out and putting Davidson in?

Come on...

[MplsBison]

On this point you are quite right. About Once a year I stop by to watch our local D-3 team play. (Technically I am due to be buried across the street from their Field.)

Wesley College annually goes deep in the D-3 playoffs and they have a very good program with some very avid fans.

Years back they scheduled and beat a so called I-AA team from the PFL Well my friends were full of themselves. In all sincerity they asked be how Wesley would fare against UD. The crushed looks on their faces were the result of my telling them that they would be lucky to lose by 40 points. I really hurt their feelings when I informed them that they would lose by 21 to Del State. Their response was that they had just beaten a I-AA team.

Now, I know the Head Coach and some of his assistants at Wesley and if they thought they could compete with a team that is 3 miles away, they would try and schedule a game. But this logic was lost on my Wesley friends. Their view was that they beat a I-AA team (a PFL team) and therefore they could compete against other I-AA teams. In their mind their team was as good as a I-AA team. I know that they considered me a stuck up UD snob. As much as I tried to explain the differences, they only knew one thing. Their D-3 team had beaten a I-AA team. Therefore D-3 is just about as good as I-AA.

Yes the PFL waters down our product. Putting them in the Playoffs only makes it worse. I can imagine my friends explaining to me that their team beat a FCS playoff team!!!!

Well said.

Sometimes the truth simply hurts. But don't tell ursus. He wants everyone in FCS to get a participation ribbon.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The playoffs are more marketable by keeping App St out and putting Davidson in?

Come on...

How far do you have to go back to when they would have been the 25th team? How big were they then? Stop it man, you are trying to take a team that would already be in unless they had a pure catastrophy of a season and wouldn't have anything more to add anyway.

If you want to choose the most unlikely of scenarios to make your point then good enough by me.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Well said.

Sometimes the truth simply hurts. But don't tell ursus. He wants everyone in FCS to get a participation ribbon.

Really? Some idle conversation between some guys at a D3 school and their thought that could compete because of a single win is the clincher huh?

Good stuff.

There are fans at Caroll College that think their team could beat UM. I handle it much the way bluekeys did and tell them it wouldn't happen and move on. If someone feels like using that sort of specious reasoning I'll let em'.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

On this point you are quite right. About Once a year I stop by to watch our local D-3 team play. (Technically I am due to be buried across the street from their Field.)

Wesley College annually goes deep in the D-3 playoffs and they have a very good program with some very avid fans.

Years back they scheduled and beat a so called I-AA team from the PFL Well my friends were full of themselves. In all sincerity they asked be how Wesley would fare against UD. The crushed looks on their faces were the result of my telling them that they would be lucky to lose by 40 points. I really hurt their feelings when I informed them that they would lose by 21 to Del State. Their response was that they had just beaten a I-AA team.

Now, I know the Head Coach and some of his assistants at Wesley and if they thought they could compete with a team that is 3 miles away, they would try and schedule a game. But this logic was lost on my Wesley friends. Their view was that they beat a I-AA team (a PFL team) and therefore they could compete against other I-AA teams. In their mind their team was as good as a I-AA team. I know that they considered me a stuck up UD snob. As much as I tried to explain the differences, they only knew one thing. Their D-3 team had beaten a I-AA team. Therefore D-3 is just about as good as I-AA.

Yes the PFL waters down our product. Putting them in the Playoffs only makes it worse. I can imagine my friends explaining to me that their team beat a FCS playoff team!!!!

In all fairness, Del State was operating under the impression that they could compete with UD as well, and they are full scholly.

[bojeta]

Really? Some idle conversation between some guys at a D3 school and their thought that could compete because of a single win is the clincher huh?

Good stuff.

There are fans at Caroll College that think their team could beat UM. I handle it much the way bluekeys did and tell them it wouldn't happen and move on. If someone feels like using that sort of specious reasoning I'll let em'.

Well it will be interesting to see how Caroll College fares against Portland State in the season opener.....

[citdog]

"In other business, the committee nominated Charles Cobb, director of athletics at Appalachian State, as its new chair."

SERIOUSLY? the playoff comm is being run by a douche who hates our level of football and considers us small time?

[MplsBison]

How far do you have to go back to when they would have been the 25th team? How big were they then? Stop it man, you are trying to take a team that would already be in unless they had a pure catastrophy of a season and wouldn't have anything more to add anyway.

If you want to choose the most unlikely of scenarios to make your point then good enough by me.

There will be a 25th team every year. And a 26th, 27th, 28th....

And they will all be more deserving of the 24th seed than the Pioneer auto-bid.


You're either being obtuse or just not smart enough to think this through. Not my problem, either way.

[MplsBison]

Looks like the Pioneer auto-bid is basically official. NCAA release: http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2012-03-06/bracket-expansion-being-considered

"Under the option favored by the committee, the 24-team bracket would feature 11 automatic qualifiers and 13 at-large teams."


Here are the facts about the Pioneer auto-bid team in the playoffs:

- guaranteed 24th seed every year (if all 24 end up being seeded)
- will never host a playoff game since will always be last seed or they'll never be able to outbid anyone to host unseeded games
- will always be blown out every year by scholarship teams
- zero marketability for the game featuring the non-scholarship Pioneer team


Yep, sounds like a big win for the NCAA.

Can't wait for NDSU to move up to the big boy league in college football. Don't worry, the door won't hit us on the way out - we'll back kick it into your stupid faces.

[asumike83]

I'm not adamant about it either, just presenting my opinion. I think 16 was always the best number but I like the fact that some teams now get 2 weeks to sell opening round playoff tickets and don't have to play the Saturday after Thanksgiving. I also like the break between the semis and title game to give fans the opportunity to make travel plans. A 16 team field with everyone having a bye Thanksgiving weekend would be the ideal scenario IMO.

Agree, 100%.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

guaranteed 24th seed every year (if all 24 end up being seeded)

They said the same thing about the Patriot, Big South, NEC. Did not happen.


will never host a playoff game since will always be last seed or they'll never be able to outbid anyone to host unseeded games

Not true. Drake and Dayton, off the top of my head, could certainly host games, especially Drake, who has hosted autobid FCS schools in the past.

And - has the perceived inability to host games hurt New Hampshire?


will always be blown out every year by scholarship teams

They said the same thing about the Patriot League, Big South, NEC...


zero marketability for the game featuring the non-scholarship Pioneer team

Dayton, Drake, Valpo, Butler, Jacksonville, and San Diego do not reside in insignificant media markets. They're called San Diego, Jacksonville, and Chicago. So Fargo's media market is a treasure of FCS, and these are crap? xlolx

[asumike83]

They said the same thing about the Patriot, Big South, NEC. Did not happen.

Were any of those conferences non-scholarship when they attained AQ status? An honest question because I don't know, not trying to be a wise a**.

[Professor Chaos]

"In other business, the committee nominated Charles Cobb, director of athletics at Appalachian State, as its new chair."

SERIOUSLY? the playoff comm is being run by a douche who hates our level of football and considers us small time?
Woah, woah, woah! Hold on a minute!

You mean to tell me that LakesBison is also the AD at App State? That's something I never would have guessed.

[darell1976]

Looks like the Pioneer auto-bid is basically official. NCAA release: http://www.ncaa.com/news/football/article/2012-03-06/bracket-expansion-being-considered

"Under the option favored by the committee, the 24-team bracket would feature 11 automatic qualifiers and 13 at-large teams."


Here are the facts about the Pioneer auto-bid team in the playoffs:

- guaranteed 24th seed every year (if all 24 end up being seeded)
- will never host a playoff game since will always be last seed or they'll never be able to outbid anyone to host unseeded games
- will always be blown out every year by scholarship teams
- zero marketability for the game featuring the non-scholarship Pioneer team


Yep, sounds like a big win for the NCAA.

Can't wait for NDSU to move up to the big boy league in college football. Don't worry, the door won't hit us on the way out - we'll back kick it into your stupid faces.

Don't say always....you would really be eating those words if NDSU were to lose to one of those teams.

[blukeys]

If we just extend the playoffs 2 more weeks, then every single team in FCS would be able to be in the playoffs.

[darell1976]

If we just extend the playoffs 2 more weeks, then every single team in FCS would be able to be in the playoffs.

Then just have the FCS play 12 games then.

[MplsBison]

Agree, 100%.

I'm starting to think so too. As much as I think 4 MVFC teams deserve to get in every year, the Thanksgiving games are stupid.

I'd rather have it at 16 with 10 autos and 6 at-large than 24 with the Pioneer getting in.

[MplsBison]

They said the same thing about the Patriot, Big South, NEC. Did not happen.



Not true. Drake and Dayton, off the top of my head, could certainly host games, especially Drake, who has hosted autobid FCS schools in the past.

And - has the perceived inability to host games hurt New Hampshire?



They said the same thing about the Patriot League, Big South, NEC...



Dayton, Drake, Valpo, Butler, Jacksonville, and San Diego do not reside in insignificant media markets. They're called San Diego, Jacksonville, and Chicago. So Fargo's media market is a treasure of FCS, and these are crap? xlolx

Apples and oranges. Scholarship (equivalency) providing vs pure non-scholarship.

You knew better, too. Obtuse.


They get as much attention those markets for their football teams as high school teams.

[henfan]

If we just extend the playoffs 2 more weeks, then every single team in FCS would be able to be in the playoffs.

Think of how unfair it's going to be for all of the schools that won't get juiceboxes in an exclusionary tournament of just 24.

[BisonHype!]

I'm not adamant about it either, just presenting my opinion. I think 16 was always the best number but I like the fact that some teams now get 2 weeks to sell opening round playoff tickets and don't have to play the Saturday after Thanksgiving. I also like the break between the semis and title game to give fans the opportunity to make travel plans. A 16 team field with everyone having a bye Thanksgiving weekend would be the ideal scenario IMO.


Definitely agree with this post. Travel plans if you are the away team for the semis, and travel to the championship game is going to be hectic no matter what team gets there. Need to have time to hype up the game as well.

[darell1976]

How would you define the level of non-schollie teams...FBS, FCS (full schollie), DII, non schollie, DIII? Or would non-schollie be between FCS and DII?

[aceinthehole]

MPLS is too dense to understand, but for the rest of you it should be pretty clear by now - the number of scholarships is a moot point to the NCAA regarding AQ status.

Sure, you can complain and moan on this board if you like, but any argument to deny the AQ to a qualified conference carrys no weight with the NCAA, period.

- Does every MEAC school offer the NCAA maximum of baseball scholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Big Sky school offer the NCAA maximum of women's soccerscholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Southern Conference school offer the NCAA maximum of volleyball scholarships on a yearly basis?

The answer of course is NO.

Conference AQ status for NCAA Championships is not, and never was, contingent on the funding of scholarships.

It is called "AUTOMATIC QUALIFICATION" for a reason - a team is granted access to the NCAA Championships automatically, as a result of winning a championship from a qualifying conference.

Per the NCAA bylaws, the PFL is a qualifing conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

MPLS is too dense to understand, but for the rest of you it should be pretty clear by now - the number of scholarships is a moot point to the NCAA regarding AQ status.

Sure, you can complain and moan on this board if you like, but any argument to deny the AQ to a qualified conference carrys no weight with the NCAA, period.

- Does every MEAC school offer the NCAA maximum of baseball scholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Big Sky school offer the NCAA maximum of women's soccerscholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Southern Conference school offer the NCAA maximum of volleyball scholarships on a yearly basis?

The answer of course is NO.

Conference AQ status for NCAA Championships is not, and never was, contingent on the funding of scholarships.

It is called "AUTOMATIC QUALIFICATION" for a reason - a team is granted access to the NCAA Championships automatically, as a result of winning a championship from a qualifying conference.

Per the NCAA bylaws, the PFL is a qualifing conference.

+1. And anyone who thinks the PFL cannot and will not compete with the other playoff schools over time are simply fooling themselves.

[blukeys]

+1. And anyone who thinks the PFL cannot and will not compete with the other playoff schools over time are simply fooling themselves.

I know you have the PL in the back of your mind, but the PL was not and is not a non-scollie conference. Now if you think the PFL will be competitive in the playoffs using a true d-3 formula then you are kidding yourself.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

MPLS, you poor bastard. Have you ever been right about anything? The beauty is that you would like NDSU to head to a place where they would be considered the PFL equivalent and would be kept out. Poor bastard.

[asumike83]

The ability of the NEC, Big South and Patriot to compete in the playoffs is being used as an example of why the Pioneer can do the same. Unless I am wrong, and nobody has stated otherwise, all those conferences have offered scholarships as an automatic qualifier.

I know it does not matter in regards to whether the NCAA will grant them AQ status but from a competitive standpoint, it is very relevant. To expect a non-scholarship team to compete with scholarship FCS programs in the playoffs would be like putting FCS teams in bowl games and expecting them to come out on top. The playing field is just not level.

[RichH2]

Many keep posting that PFL "cant" compete giving only need aid. Rather than assuming why not just let them play. Either they will be able to compete or not .My own guess is that some in PFL will indeed gear up over 3-4 yrs to compete others wont. Those top 2 or 3 will split off and join the PL . Yup, you heard it here first.xbeerchugxxrolleyesx

[van]

If the PFL wants to gain an AQ, they really need to start scheduling a better OOC slate. And, this is going to be tough, who wants to dumb down their schedule with PFL teams?

[aceinthehole]

The ability of the NEC, Big South and Patriot to compete in the playoffs is being used as an example of why the Pioneer can do the same. Unless I am wrong, and nobody has stated otherwise, all those conferences have offered scholarships as an automatic qualifier.

I know it does not matter in regards to whether the NCAA will grant them AQ status but from a competitive standpoint, it is very relevant. To expect a non-scholarship team to compete with scholarship FCS programs in the playoffs would be like putting FCS teams in bowl games and expecting them to come out on top. The playing field is just not level.

To be fair, you ultimately may be right from a competitive standpoint, but that still really doesn't matter.

Few "low-major" teams have a chance of winning a game in the Big Dance, despite offering the same number of scholarships as all the other participants - so scholarships alone are not a good criteria or metric to evaluate competitiveness.

The NCAA has and will maintain its inherent hierarchy of programs. In FCS football, App State is certainly one of the 'big fish,' yet in men's basketball you guys a just a guppy even though ASU funds the same number of scholarships as Duke.

So was the 2000 NCAA men's basketball championship any less valid when Ohio State crushed App St in the first round? Of course not. ASU's AQ appearance and subsequent loss had zero impact on the quality or enjoyment of that tournament.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

If the PFL wants to gain an AQ, they really need to start scheduling a better OOC slate. And, this is going to be tough, who wants to dumb down their schedule with PFL teams?

Anybody playing a d2 currently.

[darell1976]

Anybody playing a d2 currently.

UND played Drake last year and this year I would love it if UND played a PFL team this year over the NAIA team we have scheduled. At least a PFL team counts as a D-I win.

[RichH2]

If the PFL wants to gain an AQ, they really need to start scheduling a better OOC slate. And, this is going to be tough, who wants to dumb down their schedule with PFL teams?

Agree, if playoffs stayed at 20, I would prefer that PFL schedule up as best they can . Over last 3 yrs noticed that their OOC has gotten a bit better. At 24 there really is no legit reason to keep them out. I would rather have a league champion than a 6-5 team from CAA. True they may not be a better squad but unlikely to be much worse. My gut is that some PFL schools will meet the challenge .

[RichH2]

To be fair, you ultimately may be right from a competitive standpoint, but that still really doesn't matter.

Few "low-major" teams have a chance of winning a game in the Big Dance, despite offering the same number of scholarships as all the other participants - so scholarships alone are not a good criteria or metric to evaluate competitiveness.

The NCAA has and will maintain its inherent hierarchy of programs. In FCS football, App State is certainly one of the 'big fish,' yet in men's basketball you guys a just a guppy even though ASU funds the same number of scholarships as Duke.

So was the 2000 NCAA men's basketball championship any less valid when Ohio State crushed App St in the first round? Of course not. ASU's AQ appearance and subsequent loss had zero impact on the quality or enjoyment of that tournament.

+1

[darell1976]

Agree, if playoffs stayed at 20, I would prefer that PFL schedule up as best they can . Over last 3 yrs noticed that their OOC has gotten a bit better. At 24 there really is no legit reason to keep them out. I would rather have a league champion than a 6-5 team from CAA. True they may not be a better squad but unlikely to be much worse. My gut is that some PFL schools will meet the challenge .

So now we should go by SOS when determining who goes into the playoffs? Didn't NDSU and SHSU have poor SOS maybe they shouldn't have played for a National Title. I just don't get it if a conference has met the NCAA requirements for an AQ so be it. If the GWFC teams (even the original ones) didn't all leave for new homes that conference would be eligible for an AQ as well.

[blukeys]

The ability of the NEC, Big South and Patriot to compete in the playoffs is being used as an example of why the Pioneer can do the same. Unless I am wrong, and nobody has stated otherwise, all those conferences have offered scholarships as an automatic qualifier.

I know it does not matter in regards to whether the NCAA will grant them AQ status but from a competitive standpoint, it is very relevant. To expect a non-scholarship team to compete with scholarship FCS programs in the playoffs would be like putting FCS teams in bowl games and expecting them to come out on top. The playing field is just not level.

I am opposed to the PFL getting an AQ not on the basis of the number of scollies but because their records prove that they would not win a game in the playoffs. Coastal Carolina achieved an at large bid from an non AQ conference based on their body of wins outside of the conference. Why won't the PFL do the same thing???

[RichH2]

Not quite Darrell. I was noting my preference in current scenario of 20 for them to improve OOC as I think it will be a way to prepare them for playoffs. As we seem destined for 24 there is no reason to keep them out. Either way I would preferto settle the issue on the field rather than by assuming conferences cant compete because they dont give scholarships.


Nor do I agree that they s/b barred "because they cant win" . Would it be right to bar UD fron NCAAs in Bball because they cant win or any other midto low major?

[blukeys]

Nor do I agree that they s/b barred "because they cant win" . Would it be right to bar UD fron NCAAs in Bball because they cant win or any other midto low major?

The Current UD women's BBall team is ranked 7th in the nation. It has beaten the regular season champions of the Big 10, A-10, and Ivy League all of whom will be in the NCAA tournament. They beat the semifinalist in the ACC tournament. Their only loss was to the team playing in the ACC finals. Can you tell me how any PFL team has that kind of resume? Your anti UD bias is showing again. Once again you have not done a bit of fact checking which for you is par for the course.

[aceinthehole]

I am opposed to the PFL getting an AQ not on the basis of the number of scollies but because their records prove that they would not win a game in the playoffs. Coastal Carolina achieved an at large bid from an non AQ conference based on their body of wins outside of the conference. Why won't the PFL do the same thing???

For the same reason the SoCon, Big Sky and CAA teams don't have to earn their AQ access in men's basketball - they can just win it.

NCAA championships are filled by teams that qualify as ether 1) an automatic qualifier or 2) an at-large selection. I think you are confusing the 2 methods of selection.

The PFL qualifies for an AQ spot because they have 6 (or more) teams who compete for a conference championship in the sport of football and meet all existing NCAA requirements.

[RichH2]

The Current UD women's BBall team is ranked 7th in the nation. It has beaten the regular season champions of the Big 10, A-10, and Ivy League all of whom will be in the NCAA tournament. They beat the semifinalist in the ACC tournament. Their only loss was to the team playing in the ACC finals. Can you tell me how any PFL team has that kind of resume? Your anti UD bias is showing again. Once again you have not done a bit of fact checking which for you is par for the course.

Actually I like UD. UsedUD as an example only because of your avatar. Regardless of Bball record ( I do think DellaDonne best player in US), my point is should they be barred simply because they have no reasonable chance of winning. Should any mid to low major Champion be barred because they will not win? My opinion is no they s/n/b barred.

[aceinthehole]

The Current UD women's BBall team is ranked 7th in the nation. It has beaten the regular season champions of the Big 10, A-10, and Ivy League all of whom will be in the NCAA tournament. They beat the semifinalist in the ACC tournament. Their only loss was to the team playing in the ACC finals. Can you tell me how any PFL team has that kind of resume? Your anti UD bias is showing again. Once again you have not done a bit of fact checking which for you is par for the course.

But what if Georgia State (8-21) runs through CAA women's Tourney and earns the CAA's auto bid? Do they "deserve" to play in the tourney?

The AQ is linked to a conference, not a specific team. The CAA champ has as much right to the NCAA tourney as the NEC or Sun Belt champion.

Now, if UD doesn't win the AQ this year, they are more than qualified for an at-large selection. Good for them, they would deserve it. Awarding the Ivy League team an AQ in women's hoop does not keep a qualified at-large team like Delaware out of the tourney. So awarding the PFL an AQ in football does not exclude any qualified at-large teams, in fact it adds opportunities for additional at-large selections.

[MplsBison]

MPLS is too dense to understand, but for the rest of you it should be pretty clear by now - the number of scholarships is a moot point to the NCAA regarding AQ status.

Sure, you can complain and moan on this board if you like, but any argument to deny the AQ to a qualified conference carrys no weight with the NCAA, period.

- Does every MEAC school offer the NCAA maximum of baseball scholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Big Sky school offer the NCAA maximum of women's soccerscholarships on a yearly basis?

- Does every Southern Conference school offer the NCAA maximum of volleyball scholarships on a yearly basis?

The answer of course is NO.

Conference AQ status for NCAA Championships is not, and never was, contingent on the funding of scholarships.

It is called "AUTOMATIC QUALIFICATION" for a reason - a team is granted access to the NCAA Championships automatically, as a result of winning a championship from a qualifying conference.

Per the NCAA bylaws, the PFL is a qualifing conference.

You've committed the typical crime that AGS'ers resort to when they know they've lost the philosophical battle for granting the PFL an autobid.

You resort to comparing with other sports.


It's not apples to oranges. It's broccoli to oranges.



Here is the most base idea that's fundamental to the concept of automatic qualifiers to NCAA team post-season tournaments - so simple that anyone on AGS should be able to understand, even if they pretend not to be able:

being the best team in the conference means you should be competitive on the national stage with the best teams in the nation.


Irregardless of the scholarship issue, the top team in the PFL simply isn't competitive with even the middle of the pack teams in the MEAC, OVC, etc. And not competitive with the bottom of the barrel in MVFC, CAA, SoCon and Big Sky.


Simple as that. Therefore - being the conference champion of a terrible, aweful confernece earns you nothing.

To quote my good man Willy Wonka (Wilder not Depp): "You get..NOTHING! You LOSE! Good DAY SIR!"

[MplsBison]

Agree, if playoffs stayed at 20, I would prefer that PFL schedule up as best they can . Over last 3 yrs noticed that their OOC has gotten a bit better. At 24 there really is no legit reason to keep them out. I would rather have a league champion than a 6-5 team from CAA. True they may not be a better squad but unlikely to be much worse. My gut is that some PFL schools will meet the challenge .

Of course there is, just like there was a reason that the NCAA "kept them out" of the 16 and 20 team fields. They're not good enough.

Not like PFL hasn't "qualified" for the auto bid the last whatever years. Yet only now the NCAA is giving them the auto bid? Why? When did they suddenly get competitive in FCS? Nope, didn't happen yet.


Even San Diego with Johnson (or whatever the black QB's name was) wouldn't be good enough to win a playoff game. And that was probably the most competitive PFL team in the history of the league - because of Harbaugh. He left and they're just like any PFL team now.

[blukeys]

my point is should they be barred simply because they have no reasonable chance of winning. Should any mid to low major Champion be barred because they will not win? My opinion is no they s/n/b barred.

And my point is that Delaware has a reasonable chance of winning based on their aggressive scheduling of OOC games. This is something no PFL team has done. You ask should any low to mid major school be barred. Well why should we bar D-2 teams that have beaten the weak and ineffectual PFL teams?? Why not allow Mount Union into the FCS playoffs??

For the record NO PFL TEAM IS BARRED FROM THE FCS PLAYOFFS. The PFL teams can get into the playoffs as at large teams. They can do this the same way Coastal Carolina did before the Big South got an auto bid. When are the PFL advocates actually be honest and admit the fact that the PFL teams have a path to the playoffs provided they schedule competition that is better than glorified high school teams?

[MplsBison]

And my point is that Delaware has a reasonable chance of winning based on their aggressive scheduling of OOC games. This is something no PFL team has done. You ask should any low to mid major school be barred. Well why should we bar D-2 teams that have beaten the weak and ineffectual PFL teams?? Why not allow Mount Union into the FCS playoffs??

For the record NO PFL TEAM IS BARRED FROM THE FCS PLAYOFFS. The PFL teams can get into the playoffs as at large teams. They can do this the same way Coastal Carolina did before the Big South got an suto bid. When are the PFL advocates actually be honest and admit the fact that the PFL teams have a path to the playoffs provided they schedule competition that is better than glorified high school teams?

But isn't that the most god aweful, a** backwards part of this whole thing? PFL teams *ARE* barred from the playoffs -- de facto. Because even my grandma knows they'll never, ever, ever, ever qualify for an at-large bid!!


So yeah, it makes sense that we should just give their conf champion an automatic entry!

[RichH2]

And my point is that Delaware has a reasonable chance of winning based on their aggressive scheduling of OOC games. This is something no PFL team has done. You ask should any low to mid major school be barred. Well why should we bar D-2 teams that have beaten the weak and ineffectual PFL teams?? Why not allow Mount Union into the FCS playoffs??

For the record NO PFL TEAM IS BARRED FROM THE FCS PLAYOFFS. The PFL teams can get into the playoffs as at large teams. They can do this the same way Coastal Carolina did before the Big South got an auto bid. When are the PFL advocates actually be honest and admit the fact that the PFL teams have a path to the playoffs provided they schedule competition that is better than glorified high school teams?

You are being disengenuous here . We are talking about AQs for Bball, not at large. In that context they are indeed barred.

[darell1976]

But isn't that the most god aweful, a** backwards part of this whole thing? PFL teams *ARE* barred from the playoffs -- de facto. Because even my grandma knows they'll never, ever, ever, ever qualify for an at-large bid!!


So yeah, it makes sense that we should just give their conf champion an automatic entry!

Kinda like Boise State was not in the BCS title games....all because of SOS they were "barred" from a National Title game. Is there teams in March Madness that can do damage yes (Kansas, Duke, Kentucky even mid major teams like Butler, Murray State etc.) but there are teams that are their just for show (Montana, LIU-Brooklyn, South Dakota State) they aren't going to the Final Four, or even the sweet 16. They know there is a huge mountain in front of them but do they quit...no and they may shock people in beating a major team. PFL teams could do that in the playoffs. Say Drake played NDSU (yeah I know) all it takes is a off game by Jensen or a fumble here and a big play for Drake and NDSU is watching the rest of the playoffs at TGIFridays in Fargo. So I say why not give the PFL teams a chance to see what they can do in the playoffs. We give half of the AQ teams in March Madness teams a chance and we call them cinderella teams.

[RichH2]

Kinda like Boise State was not in the BCS title games....all because of SOS they were "barred" from a National Title game. Is there teams in March Madness that can do damage yes (Kansas, Duke, Kentucky even mid major teams like Butler, Murray State etc.) but there are teams that are their just for show (Montana, LIU-Brooklyn, South Dakota State) they aren't going to the Final Four, or even the sweet 16. They know there is a huge mountain in front of them but do they quit...no and they may shock people in beating a major team. PFL teams could do that in the playoffs. Say Drake played NDSU (yeah I know) all it takes is a off game by Jensen or a fumble here and a big play for Drake and NDSU is watching the rest of the playoffs at TGIFridays in Fargo. So I say why not give the PFL teams a chance to see what they can do in the playoffs. We give half of the AQ teams in March Madness teams a chance and we call them cinderella teams.

Yup, exactly

[ursus arctos horribilis]

H2, ace, and darell are just laying waste to this thing today. Good work fella's.xthumbsupx

[MplsBison]

You are being disengenuous here . We are talking about AQs for Bball, not at large. In that context they are indeed barred.

And as I correctly pointed out, we're NOT talking about bball here. It's not football. Neither is women's soccer or volleyball.

[MplsBison]

Kinda like Boise State was not in the BCS title games....all because of SOS they were "barred" from a National Title game. Is there teams in March Madness that can do damage yes (Kansas, Duke, Kentucky even mid major teams like Butler, Murray State etc.) but there are teams that are their just for show (Montana, LIU-Brooklyn, South Dakota State) they aren't going to the Final Four, or even the sweet 16. They know there is a huge mountain in front of them but do they quit...no and they may shock people in beating a major team. PFL teams could do that in the playoffs. Say Drake played NDSU (yeah I know) all it takes is a off game by Jensen or a fumble here and a big play for Drake and NDSU is watching the rest of the playoffs at TGIFridays in Fargo. So I say why not give the PFL teams a chance to see what they can do in the playoffs. We give half of the AQ teams in March Madness teams a chance and we call them cinderella teams.

This is how I know I've won: all you guys can do is keep coming back with these nonsequitor, red herring arguments and try as hard as you can to pretend like they're in the context of the discussion.

Boise St and the BCS rankings is not an analogy to the PFL with an auto-bid to the FCS playoffs. Apples to broccoli.


Same thing when you keep going back to march madness. Apples to broccoli.



Let me know if you have the ability to come up with an analogy that works in the context of the discussion. I'll be here, waiting patiently as ever.

[asumike83]

Say Drake played NDSU (yeah I know) all it takes is a off game by Jensen or a fumble here and a big play for Drake and NDSU is watching the rest of the playoffs at TGIFridays in Fargo.

It would have taken the whole Bison team and coaching staff showing up drunk with weights on their ankles to lose to Drake.

[MplsBison]

It would have taken the whole Bison team and coaching staff showing up drunk with weights on their ankles to lose to Drake.

Yep.

On any given night, Kentucky can lose to Murray St in bball.


NDSU can't lose to a PFL school, 10 out of 10. PFL is the same quality as DIII.

[darell1976]

Yep.

On any given night, Kentucky can lose to Murray St in bball.


NDSU can't lose to a PFL school, 10 out of 10. PFL is the same quality as DIII.

South Dakota State lost to a DIII team. Didn't Indiana State lose to a NAIA team, teams can lose to whoever reguardless of division or scholarships. Montana and UNI lost to DII teams. Funny Mpls how you use the word "can't". NDSU can't lose to a PFL school...is that a new NCAA rule? Alert the PFL you guys can not ever beat NDSU.xlolx

[RichH2]

The point is not whether this NDSU team would win or lose vs a PFL squad. The point is simply that in a year a PFL squad could beat the chalk and win a game.It has happened before and no doubt will again. The frat boy attitude that THEY are not good enough for our club is rather repulsive. No one is losing anything by giving the AQ with 24 slots to fill yet some just keep coming back stating we cant let these guys in, they are not good enough. I fail to see why we cannot let them all decide it on the field. I agree and have said repeatedly that PFL must improve their OOC but at 24 that issue to me becomes a preference not a requirement

[danefan]

Yep.

On any given night, Kentucky can lose to Murray St in bball.


NDSU can't lose to a PFL school, 10 out of 10. PFL is the same quality as DIII.

How many Delaware fans were saying that in 2006 about the NEC?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6281/dscn0304nx4.jpg

You never know what happens between the lines.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

How many Delaware fans were saying that in 2006 about the NEC?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6281/dscn0304nx4.jpg

You never know what happens between the lines.

You beat me to it. And back then folks like blukeys were making tired arguments that EVEN THOUGH Albany went to the Tub and beat them in their place - because NEC teams weren't "good enough" to earn home-and-homes with mighty CAA schools, of course - the NEC champion didn't deserve an at-large bid because they played in an easy, non-full-scholarship conference. Basically, when NEC teams proved they could beat CAA schools, the fans invented new arguments to exclude them.

Which brings me back to the essence of the argument. Nobody knows how the PFL will do in the playoffs since they don't have equal access to the playoffs as other qualifying conferences.

[danefan]

You beat me to it. And back then folks like blukeys were making tired arguments that EVEN THOUGH Albany went to the Tub and beat them in their place - because NEC teams weren't "good enough" to earn home-and-homes with mighty CAA schools, of course - the NEC champion didn't deserve an at-large bid because they played in an easy, non-full-scholarship conference. Basically, when NEC teams proved they could beat CAA schools, the fans invented new arguments to exclude them.

Which brings me back to the essence of the argument. Nobody knows how the PFL will do in the playoffs since they don't have equal access to the playoffs as other qualifying conferences.

And BTW - Albany was for all intents and purposes a non-scholarship team when it beat Delaware.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

We can be pretty sure they will not do well in the beginning. That is not really in dispute. They need the chance to gain the experience and have the opportunity to say "we need to start playing these guys a little bit OOC and test ourselves" much like teams like Albany and others have done to be a legitimate good team in the division.

H2 nailed my thought. At 16 there is no room to include the PFL and it should not have been done because it takes away from a more deserving team but if your at 20 and moving to 24 then it's silly not to extend the courtesy. There are no extra games added for the top teams, there is no extension of weeks in the season over where we are at now at.

Hell I argued for the opposite side when it was 16 teams. It didn't make sense, now it does.

[asumike83]

We can be pretty sure they will not do well in the beginning. That is not really in dispute. They need the chance to gain the experience and have the opportunity to say "we need to start playing these guys a little bit OOC and test ourselves" much like teams like Albany and others have done to be a legitimate good team in the division.

H2 nailed my thought. At 16 there is no room to include the PFL and it should not have been done because it takes away from a more deserving team but if your at 20 and moving to 24 then it's silly not to extend the courtesy. There are no extra games added for the top teams, there is no extension of weeks in the season over where we are at now at.

Hell I argued for the opposite side when it was 16 teams. It didn't make sense, now it does.

That is a valid point and if the expansion to 24 is inevitable, a PFL bid would bother me much less than the expansion itself. I just really wish we'd stop where we are and honestly, this was my issue with the first expansion. The field was at 16 teams for 28 years and I think it was perfect. Now we've gone from 16 to 20 and looking more and more like 24 is coming soon, all in the matter of 3 years. Where is it going to stop? If we have 24 teams, team #25 is going to gripe, just like team #21 does now. That is never going to change and more teams are always going to want in. It just seems like a slippery slope to me. I give it 3-4 years at 24 before someone decides that 28 or 32 would be better.

As much as we all harp on the FBS for letting everyone get a taste of the postseason even after a mediocre season, we are headed that way too.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

That is a valid point and if the expansion to 24 is inevitable, a PFL bid would bother me much less than the expansion itself. I just really wish we'd stop where we are and honestly, this was my issue with the first expansion. The field was at 16 teams for 28 years and I think it was perfect. Now we've gone from 16 to 20 and looking more and more like 24 is coming soon, all in the matter of 3 years. Where is it going to stop? If we have 24 teams, team #25 is going to gripe, just like team #21 does now. That is never going to change and more teams are always going to want in. It just seems like a slippery slope to me. I give it 3-4 years at 24 before someone decides that 28 or 32 would be better.

As much as we all harp on the FBS for letting everyone get a taste of the postseason even after a mediocre season, we are headed that way too.

That one's easy: it's going to basically stop at the PFL. There are a finite number of conferences at the FCS level, and once the PFL gets their autobid, that only leaves the Ivy (who opts out) and the SWAC (who wants the $$$ from their Thanksgiving game) as the only outlliers. Sure, America East could start FCS football, or something like that, but it would take years for that to happen if it happens at all. If anything, conferences are consolidating and getting bigger while conferences like the Big South might not even have enough teams for an autobid soon.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That is a valid point and if the expansion to 24 is inevitable, a PFL bid would bother me much less than the expansion itself. I just really wish we'd stop where we are and honestly, this was my issue with the first expansion. The field was at 16 teams for 28 years and I think it was perfect. Now we've gone from 16 to 20 and looking more and more like 24 is coming soon, all in the matter of 3 years. Where is it going to stop? If we have 24 teams, team #25 is going to gripe, just like team #21 does now. That is never going to change and more teams are always going to want in. It just seems like a slippery slope to me. I give it 3-4 years at 24 before someone decides that 28 or 32 would be better.

As much as we all harp on the FBS for letting everyone get a taste of the postseason even after a mediocre season, we are headed that way too.

The move to 24 was always gonna be the final goal. It isn't going past that unless their is more conferences. Once everyone has THE OPPORTUNITY to make the playoffs through their conference it's done. The NCAA has never given a **** that the #21 or in this case the #25 team has bitched about it. The answer to every question as to why you were left out can be answered...you had the opportunity but can only blame yourself for not being in it.

You probably saw some fans sifting through the gravel last year with the ol' chestnut "Why would they get in when we did such and such" and it's quickly put back in their own lap.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

BTW, it would take at least 2 new conferences forming and passing the test to be an FCS conference because they have one spot to give at 24 yet and still make the requirements of 1/2 & 1/2.

[RichH2]

Ah, the spectres of the unknown future landscape of FCS. We shouldn't do anything now because we dont know what will happen_______________ ( Fill in the Blank).

The sidekick argument is Oh , if we expand to 24 it will lead to more and more expansion just like FBS.

Not to be too political , I call these my GOP arguments ( Dont get riled I am one). ie We must be afraid of the future , there's been too much change and I love Ozzie and harriet.

Expansion in FBS driven by $$$$$$$. FCs does not have that problem. I really dont have much problem with the status quo as long as it is as fair and equable as we can make it. ursus summed it up perfectly, at 16 would be unfair to take slot from a more deserving school but at 24 the exact opposite applies.

I am much more in favor of including everyone that we can into the post season party than I am in setting up arbitrary barriers to prevent it.

[aceinthehole]

Any realistic chance the Ivy League will request a bid along with the PFL?

Does the PL’s vote to allow football scholarships and Harvard's seemingly renewed interest in performing in national tournaments (men's hoops) renew the IL’s Presidents to reexamine this issue?

I know that including the Ivys would make this expansion issue a whole lot more palatable and interesting to many of the naysayers.

[alvinkayak6]

We can be pretty sure they will not do well in the beginning. That is not really in dispute. They need the chance to gain the experience and have the opportunity to say "we need to start playing these guys a little bit OOC and test ourselves" much like teams like Albany and others have done to be a legitimate good team in the division.

H2 nailed my thought. At 16 there is no room to include the PFL and it should not have been done because it takes away from a more deserving team but if your at 20 and moving to 24 then it's silly not to extend the courtesy. There are no extra games added for the top teams, there is no extension of weeks in the season over where we are at now at.

Hell I argued for the opposite side when it was 16 teams. It didn't make sense, now it does.

Have to agree here. With 24 teams, including the PFL champ seems appropriate. Maybe we could call it the "Plus One" xlolx

[bluehenbillk]

How many Delaware fans were saying that in 2006 about the NEC?

http://img148.imageshack.us/img148/6281/dscn0304nx4.jpg

You never know what happens between the lines.

Lest we forget, the next time the two teams played, in 2008, one of Delaware's worst seasons in recent memory, the Blue Hens thumped the Danes 38-7.......

[RichH2]

As long as Harvard plays Yale, IL will not be in FCS playoffs. To my mind a nonsensical posture but nonetheless real. I wish they would join as I firmly believe top teams in IL can make an impact on playoffs

[MplsBison]

We can be pretty sure they will not do well in the beginning. That is not really in dispute. They need the chance to gain the experience and have the opportunity to say "we need to start playing these guys a little bit OOC and test ourselves" much like teams like Albany and others have done to be a legitimate good team in the division.

H2 nailed my thought. At 16 there is no room to include the PFL and it should not have been done because it takes away from a more deserving team but if your at 20 and moving to 24 then it's silly not to extend the courtesy. There are no extra games added for the top teams, there is no extension of weeks in the season over where we are at now at.

Hell I argued for the opposite side when it was 16 teams. It didn't make sense, now it does.

You just proved yourself wrong. Thank you for agreeing with me.

If the PFL didn't deserve it at 16 and they didn't deserve it at 20, then they don't deserve it at 24.


There's always going to be a team that didn't make the playoffs because their spot went to the PFL conf champion. At that team will always be more competitive than the PFL conf champion - therefore, just like in the case of 16 and 20, the PFL doesn't deserve an autobid.


This is so easy to see...you even see it yourself.


This is, literally, nothing more than being politically correct.

[MplsBison]

Here is a question no one has asked, for some reason, and to which there is no acceptable explanation:

Even though the PFL has been active since 1993 - if you just consider the league since 2001, when membership expanded from 5 to 10, why has the Pioneer ***NEVER*** earned an at-large berth to the playoffs????

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Here is a question no one has asked, for some reason, and to which there is no acceptable explanation:

Even though the PFL has been active since 1993 - if you just consider the league since 2001, when membership expanded from 5 to 10, why has the Pioneer ***NEVER*** earned an at-large berth to the playoffs????

Because even though teams from non-auto-bid conferences do beat autobid conference teams, it never seems to be "enough" to merit qualification to the playoffs. When they win, some other excuse is invented to shut them out. Even though they fit the criteria for an autobid to the playoffs.

[MplsBison]

Because even though teams from non-auto-bid conferences do beat autobid conference teams, it never seems to be "enough" to merit qualification to the playoffs. When they win, some other excuse is invented to shut them out. Even though they fit the criteria for an autobid to the playoffs.

Of course. It's a conspiracy.

Gotta get the PFL an auto-bid because there's a conspiracy to keep them from getting an at-large. Must be it.


See....at the very end, when it's all been boiled down - the pro-PFL AQ guys have no legs to stand on. Thank you


By the way, very convenient for you lump PFL in with Great West, Big South and NEC - as if they were the same quality.

Has Pioneer teams ever beat any team that was in an AQ conference at the time from 2001 onward? Don't know the answer to be honest, but guess it's not many if any. Off top my head I think San Diego beat UC Davis the year they had the really talented QB and Harbaugh as the head coach. That's probably the creme of the crop. And UC Davis was still in the Great West, non-AQ.

[MplsBison]

By the way, the sorry argument "Pioneer deserves an auto-bid because they fit the criteria for one" is a non-starter.

The criteria does not say that the conference will automatically get the auto-bid! It just means they're *eligible* to be considered to have one. Pioneer is eligible, sure. They've been eligible probably since 2001 - but all the same they've never been deserving of one due to lack of quality.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Has Pioneer teams ever beat any team that was in an AQ conference at the time from 2001 onward? Don't know the answer to be honest, but guess it's not many if any. Off top my head I think San Diego beat UC Davis the year they had the really talented QB and Harbaugh as the head coach. That's probably the creme of the crop. And UC Davis was still in the Great West, non-AQ.

Dayton beat Fordham the year they won the PL championship and gave UMass a run for their money. Dayton has also beaten Fordham multiple times. Drake beat Illinois State, Marist beat Georgetown... Shall I go on?

[RichH2]

I love to peek into The Mpls world. He reviews his own arguments with one eye and thanks himself for being right.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

By the way, the sorry argument "Pioneer deserves an auto-bid because they fit the criteria for one" is a non-starter.

The criteria does not say that the conference will automatically get the auto-bid! It just means they're *eligible* to be considered to have one. Pioneer is eligible, sure. They've been eligible probably since 2001 - but all the same they've never been deserving of one due to lack of quality.

Actually, it is the entire point, which, as usual, you've missed. The point is: what is a good reason for denying a conference an autobid? Their champions have enough D-I wins. They have the right amount of members. They've competed together for a long enough time. What was different in 2001 was that they did not request an autobid. Now they want one, and the question is: why deny them? On basis of scholarships? That's not allowed: there is no minimum number of scholarships to offer in FCS. On basis of non-competitiveness? The champions have enough D-I wins to qualify as an at-large. On the basis that they've never made it before? Circular logic, and even with quality wins it's never put them into the playoffs over other teams. Once you've eliminated that, what's left? That you don't like them?

[bluehenbillk]

Dayton beat Fordham the year they won the PL championship and gave UMass a run for their money. Dayton has also beaten Fordham multiple times. Drake beat Illinois State, Marist beat Georgetown... Shall I go on?

When did Dayton & UMass play?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

When did Dayton & UMass play?

Dayton beat Fordham the year the Rams gave UMass a run for their money in the playoffs. Sorry, Mpls' idiocy must be rubbing off on me. xlolx

[Bogus Megapardus]

I'm now taking suggestions for the 2012 MplsBison Commemorative Photoshop. What do you imagine it looks like? What is its native habitat? Does it have distinctive marks or plumage?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You just proved yourself wrong. Thank you for agreeing with me.

If the PFL didn't deserve it at 16 and they didn't deserve it at 20, then they don't deserve it at 24.


There's always going to be a team that didn't make the playoffs because their spot went to the PFL conf champion. At that team will always be more competitive than the PFL conf champion - therefore, just like in the case of 16 and 20, the PFL doesn't deserve an autobid.


This is so easy to see...you even see it yourself.


This is, literally, nothing more than being politically correct.

Simple Jack, I'm sorry you can't put a cogent argument together. When you can, let me know and I'll be the first to debate it with you. Until then just kepp on with your dullardly behavior.

Hey! Good news! There's a penny in the corner with some chewed gum! Go get it boy!!

http://crap4facepolitics.files.wordpress.com/2011/05/simple-scott-walker.jpg

[RichH2]

I'm now taking suggestions for the 2012 MplsBison Commemorative Photoshop. What do you imagine it looks like? What is its native habitat? Does it have distinctive marks or plumage?

Dodo bird might make a good start. Must find a way to include some Bison Patties.( Preferably steaming)

[danefan]

Lest we forget, the next time the two teams played, in 2008, one of Delaware's worst seasons in recent memory, the Blue Hens thumped the Danes 38-7.......



I'm not forgetting anything. My reference to the Albany win at Delaware was to Mpls's quote:


NDSU can't lose to a PFL school, 10 out of 10. PFL is the same quality as DIII.

I guarantee there were a lot of Delaware fans saying the same thing in 2006. ("Delaware can't lose to an NEC school, 10 out of 10. NEC is the same quality as DIII")

[MplsBison]

Dayton beat Fordham the year they won the PL championship and gave UMass a run for their money. Dayton has also beaten Fordham multiple times. Drake beat Illinois State, Marist beat Georgetown... Shall I go on?

Thank you for proving my point. And yes, you should list every victory that a Pioneer team has had over an AQ conf team since 2001. I'm curious to know the exact results.

Of those few you listed, you consider G-town and Fordham prior to ramping up aid to be the same thing as Delaware? I know I said AQ, but you're obviously being obtuse.


Furthermore, back to my point - what were Drake's and Dayton's records those years and why were they not given at-large bids?! What was the rest of the non-conf schedule like for them?


Good on Drake for the win of Illinois St and Dayton for the win over Forham during the PL championship year. So there's two legit wins. Two.....since 2001, with 10 teams times 3 non-conf games per year.

Yes, please continue to prove my point for me. Thanks! xsalutex

[RichH2]

Mpls Dont your arms get tired patting yourself on the back. Really you should wait til you are actually correct not just self validating your own statements.

[MplsBison]

Simple Jack, I'm sorry you can't put a cogent argument together. When you can, let me know and I'll be the first to debate it with you. Until then just kepp on with your dullardly behavior.

Hey! Good news! There's a penny in the corner with some chewed gum! Go get it boy!!


Just because you're stumped and can't think of a logical reason for why the PFL didn't deserve an auto-bid with a field of 16 and 20 but does deserve one with a field of 24, does not mean you get to run away from the argument.

I expect that from someone with lower intelligence, but not you ursus.

[MplsBison]

Mpls Dont your arms get tired patting yourself on the back. Really you should wait til you are actually correct not just self validating your own statements.

I've built them up over the years.

[RichH2]

I've built them up over the years.

I'llgive you one thing , you clearly enjoy yourself, while driving the rest of us nuts with your cockamamie arguments

[MplsBison]

Actually, it is the entire point, which, as usual, you've missed. The point is: what is a good reason for denying a conference an autobid? Their champions have enough D-I wins. They have the right amount of members. They've competed together for a long enough time. What was different in 2001 was that they did not request an autobid. Now they want one, and the question is: why deny them? On basis of scholarships? That's not allowed: there is no minimum number of scholarships to offer in FCS. On basis of non-competitiveness? The champions have enough D-I wins to qualify as an at-large. On the basis that they've never made it before? Circular logic, and even with quality wins it's never put them into the playoffs over other teams. Once you've eliminated that, what's left? That you don't like them?

So, the reason that the PFL has never been given an auto-bid to the playoffs since 2001, even though they had 10 teams in the league since that season ......... is because they just didn't have enough foresight to ask for one?

You liar. Why would you be so dishonest?

A) how do you know they never asked for one before? B) how do you know they've formally asked for one now? Give the link to the release on the PFL website.


As to your philosophical question (what is the basis...) I already explained this, simple enough that anyone on AGS should be able to understand. The concept of an auto-bid comes from the idea that a conference has so many quality members that playing an 8 game conference schedule and winning enough of those games to be a champion should mean that your team is as good as most anyone in the nation.

That's very apparently *NOT* true of the PFL champ. It's true of the Patriot champ, it's true of the NEC champ, it's true of the Big South champ and it would've been true of the Great West champ if there still were one.

****NOT**** true of the PFL champ. And until they prove otherwise, it never will be true.

[MplsBison]

I'llgive you one thing , you clearly enjoy yourself, while driving the rest of us nuts with your cockamamie arguments

Tell me one thing: do you really, truly in heart believe that AGS should be a place where only very serious, factual conversations should take place?

Or is there any room, whatsoever, for entertainment?


The way I see it is, if you're even bothering to post on the message board - it means you have no say in how anything goes. In other words, this is the only place to make your opinions heard. So who gives a flip if I don't take things as deathly serious as some of you....none of us are going to make a lick of difference with how we think things should happen. Why not lighten it up a bit?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Just because you're stumped and can't think of a logical reason for why the PFL didn't deserve an auto-bid with a field of 16 and 20 but does deserve one with a field of 24, does not mean you get to run away from the argument.

I expect that from someone with lower intelligence, but not you ursus.

Every silly point you've made has been shot down. I have not disagreed that as of right now the PFL has not been competitive. You seem to have trouble seeing that this is not the argument. Hell you can not even see that there is a difference between 16 & 24 and if it's gonna be 24 then that 24th spot probably has more value in the overall by being 100# inclusive than still trying to stick something that was not bull**** before but certainly would be bull**** at that point.

So, I can dismiss you whenever I feel like. You always take some sort of contrary point and instead of just making a good argument like asumike and others do you tell us about how you feel and it's always from an anger perspective. Dismissed again.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Tell me one thing: do you really, truly in heart believe that AGS should be a place where only very serious, factual conversations should take place?

Or is there any room, whatsoever, for entertainment?


The way I see it is, if you're even bothering to post on the message board - it means you have no say in how anything goes. In other words, this is the only place to make your opinions heard. So who gives a flip if I don't take things as deathly serious as some of you....none of us are going to make a lick of difference with how we think things should happen. Why not lighten it up a bit?


This is dead on man. Gotta give credit, it's completely true. Gotta remember though that part of that entertainment is making some statements like H2, me, & others do is to match or raise the intensity of the discourse. It's gotta be fun for us as well.

Your opinion will always be able to be expressed even if not always treated kindly.xlolx

[Silenoz]

Hmm, the last page of this thread kind of makes me want to read all 17... xlolx

[MplsBison]

Every silly point you've made has been shot down. I have not disagreed that as of right now the PFL has not been competitive. You seem to have trouble seeing that this is not the argument. Hell you can not even see that there is a difference between 16 & 24 and if it's gonna be 24 then that 24th spot probably has more value in the overall by being 100# inclusive than still trying to stick something that was not bull**** before but certainly would be bull**** at that point.

So, I can dismiss you whenever I feel like. You always take some sort of contrary point and instead of just making a good argument like asumike and others do you tell us about how you feel and it's always from an anger perspective. Dismissed again.

Why is there more value giving the 24th spot to a PFL team than to another MVFC, CAA, SoCon or Big Sky team?

You're just saying there is. You're not giving any reason.


What if the playoffs were expanding to 22 teams? Still give the 22nd spot to the PFL? What about 23 teams?

Where is the exact line and why?

[MplsBison]

This is dead on man. Gotta give credit, it's completely true. Gotta remember though that part of that entertainment is making some statements like H2, me, & others do is to match or raise the intensity of the discourse. It's gotta be fun for us as well.

Your opinion will always be able to be expressed even if not always treated kindly.xlolx

I welcome intense discussion. I do not welcome personal attacks instead of making an argument, which is what you did.


My comment was more directed at guys like H2 and Bogus, who seem to can't stand the fact that someone isn't taking AGS as deathly serious as they do. It's not their private little brandy & cigar room - go to a Patriot message board for that. I don't post there.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I welcome intense discussion. I do not welcome personal attacks instead of making an argument, which is what you did.


My comment was more directed at guys like H2 and Bogus, who seem to can't stand the fact that someone isn't taking AGS as deathly serious as they do. It's not their private little brandy & cigar room - go to a Patriot message board for that. I don't post there.

Poor fella, I hope your feelings recover from the ribbing.xthumbsupx

[Silenoz]

Why is there more value giving the 24th spot to a PFL team than to another MVFC, CAA, SoCon or Big Sky team?

You're just saying there is. You're not giving any reason.


What if the playoffs were expanding to 22 teams? Still give the 22nd spot to the PFL? What about 23 teams?

Where is the exact line and why?
Does there have to be an exact line? I'm with Ursus, the more the field gets watered down, the less I care about a Pioneer team stealing a spot from some 6-5 team. In fact it's practically a 1-to-1 relationship. The further down the at-large is instead a PFL AQ, the less my care.

Care ^http://img.sparknotes.com/figures/2/27ecf3a3be058b371903d45b59973dfc/adgraph.gif
Playoff Spots >

[Blue Eagle]

A just world:

4 - CAA
4 - MVFC
4 - Big Sky
3 - SoCon
2 - Patriot
2 - OVC
2 - Southland
1 - MEAC
1 - NEC
1 - Big South

I do not like the idea of playing the semi-final games at a neutral site. Playing for home field advantage makes the regular season more exciting.

Give all FCS Conferences an automatic bid - including the Ivy League which would increase interest in the FCS Playoff. If a conference is not good enough to be given a bid put them in a different division.

As a partisan SoCon fan - if any conference deserves 4 bids the SoCon does! I suspect the SoCon has won more NCs, has more playoff wins, and has had more different teams play for the NC than anyone else! The SoCon has had 4 teams - ASU, Furman, Ga Southern, and Wofford - consistently in the top 25.

[MplsBison]

Does there have to be an exact line? I'm with Ursus, the more the field gets watered down, the less I care about a Pioneer team stealing a spot from some 6-5 team. In fact it's practically a 1-to-1 relationship. The further down the at-large is instead a PFL AQ, the less my care.


OK, so you favor staying at 20 instead of giving the PFL an auto-bid. That would be my first choice as well.

But I'm also in the camp that thinks, if we have to add 4 spots then they rightfully belong to the first 4 teams that didn't make the cut last year. Teams like Indiana St and Youngstown St are the perfect teams to add.

[MplsBison]

I do not like the idea of playing the semi-final games at a neutral site. Playing for home field advantage makes the regular season more exciting.

Give all FCS Conferences an automatic bid - including the Ivy League which would increase interest in the FCS Playoff. If a conference is not good to be given a bid put them in a different division.

As a partisan SoCon fan - if any conference deserves 4 bids the SoCon does! I suspect the SoCon has won more NCs, has more playoff wins, and has had more different teams play for the NC than anyone else! The SoCon has had 4 teams - ASU, Furman, Ga Southern, and Wofford - consistently in the top 25.

With you all the way - Pioneer League should be allowed to compete in DIII.

If NCAA has the authority to force non-scholarship teams into a high scholarship football division then they darn well have the authority to force those non-scholarship teams back into the non-scholarship division.

[Bogus Megapardus]

My comment was more directed at guys like H2 and Bogus, who seem to can't stand the fact that someone isn't taking AGS as deathly serious as they do. It's not their private little brandy & cigar room - go to a Patriot message board for that. I don't post there.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZN5PoW7_kdA

[MplsBison]

Poor fella, I hope your feelings recover from the ribbing.xthumbsupx

No, no, no. You're not capable of saying anything or posting any picture that will hurt my feelings.

I was just dissappointed, more than anything, that you weren't able to come up with a legitimate reason for the PFL to get an auto-bid. I already defeated "they deserve it", "they qualify for it" and any reference to a NCAA sport other than football. Those aren't legit.

[MplsBison]

orange video

Shoot, there's no youtube video of Billy Zane in Titanic smoking in the Brandy and Cigar room with the other rich guys.

Just pretend I posted that.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So, the reason that the PFL has never been given an auto-bid to the playoffs since 2001, even though they had 10 teams in the league since that season ......... is because they just didn't have enough foresight to ask for one?

You liar. Why would you be so dishonest?

A) how do you know they never asked for one before? B) how do you know they've formally asked for one now? Give the link to the release on the PFL website.


As to your philosophical question (what is the basis...) I already explained this, simple enough that anyone on AGS should be able to understand. The concept of an auto-bid comes from the idea that a conference has so many quality members that playing an 8 game conference schedule and winning enough of those games to be a champion should mean that your team is as good as most anyone in the nation.

That's very apparently *NOT* true of the PFL champ. It's true of the Patriot champ, it's true of the NEC champ, it's true of the Big South champ and it would've been true of the Great West champ if there still were one.

****NOT**** true of the PFL champ. And until they prove otherwise, it never will be true.

1) I am not a liar.

2) Why don't you call Patty Viverito and ask her what she has done with the PFL's autobid?

3) The concept of an autobid is simple, and different from what you say. It is most decidedly not "that a conference has so many quality members that playing an 8 game conference schedule and winning enough of those games to be a champion should mean that your team is as good as most anyone in the nation." An autobid can be issued to any conference that 1) has a minimum of six members that have been competing against each other for five years, 2) have champions that play, and defeat, enough Division I opponents, and 3) asks for an autobid. There is nothing about requiring "quality members" to have an autobid, nor should there be. The fact is, they fit the criteria for an autobid, no matter the amount of asterisks around the word NOT that you include.

4) Funny you should bring up the Great West, which did not have an autobid since it didn't have enough members to have one. Or were you not aware they had no autobid?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Billy Zane in Titanic smoking in the Brandy and Cigar room


Found it for you.



http://img9.imageshack.us/img9/8842/heybilly.png

[ursus arctos horribilis]

No, no, no. You're not capable of saying anything or posting any picture that will hurt my feelings.

I was just dissappointed, more than anything, that you weren't able to come up with a legitimate reason for the PFL to get an auto-bid. I already defeated "they deserve it", "they qualify for it" and any reference to a NCAA sport other than football. Those aren't legit.

were ya

[DetroitFlyer]

You know, I think it would be a great idea for the PFL to ask for and obtain an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs!

[MplsBison]

1) I am not a liar.

2) Why don't you call Patty Viverito and ask her what she has done with the PFL's autobid?

3) The concept of an autobid is simple, and different from what you say. It is most decidedly not "that a conference has so many quality members that playing an 8 game conference schedule and winning enough of those games to be a champion should mean that your team is as good as most anyone in the nation." An autobid can be issued to any conference that 1) has a minimum of six members that have been competing against each other for five years, 2) have champions that play, and defeat, enough Division I opponents, and 3) asks for an autobid. There is nothing about requiring "quality members" to have an autobid, nor should there be. The fact is, they fit the criteria for an autobid, no matter the amount of asterisks around the word NOT that you include.

4) Funny you should bring up the Great West, which did not have an autobid since it didn't have enough members to have one. Or were you not aware they had no autobid?

Why do you rehash the exact same points that I've already defeated?


Yes, they meet the criteria for being eligible for an auto-bid. No one has denied this. In fact, they've been eligible since 2001.

Being eligible does not mean you automatically get the auto-bid. Obviously. Or they would've already had it.

So why didn't they have one since 2001 when the field was 16? Why didn't they get one when the field was expanded to 20? They were eligible that whole time.


And then there's the philosophical argument: if a conference is eligible for an auto-bid, how do you decide to give it to them or not?

I laid out the correct argument.



So if your response to all of that is just that "well gee...shucks, I guess they didn't ask for one" -- you're trying to deceive us with disinformation that you know to be false. A liar.

[MplsBison]

You know, I think it would be a great idea for the PFL to ask for and obtain an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs!

Of course you do.

You already get something for nothing: a varsity football program in DI, without having to pay scholarship equivalencies to your players. Why not keep taking that which you've not earned?

[MplsBison]

were ya

You've never been able to come up a logical reason to give the PFL an auto-bid. I've reduced you to a hill billy, apparently.

[MplsBison]

Found it for you.

That's the formal dining room, not the brandy and cigar room.

[alvinkayak6]

Maybe to determine if the Pioneer League deserves an autobid, there could be a playoff..........Wait..........

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Who says that the schools of the PFL do not practice the same sort of aid calculation used in the Patriot League oh these many years? Need-based aid underpins those PFL football programs, without question. (No AI, another source of pique for MB, though).

Let's see what the implications are here, using the FCS rules. Right now there are ten AQ slots, and ten at-large. The addition of a PFL AQ, under NCAA FCS rules, means that at least one more at-large slot be added, and instead it looks as though it will add three. Eight schools will have the bye, 16 play in the first round.

The committee seems to be proposing rewriting their rule that says that only 25% of the field gets seeded. (Being 'seeded' has meant have home playoff games guaranteed until you met a higher seed.) This past season only five schools were seeded but 12 had byes. In 2011 four lower bracket schools got to host a first round game before hitting the road. In a field of 24, four more first round games means four more unseeded schools would get get home playoff games, eight in total.

In the unseeded part of the bracket, schools that guarantee big ticket sales get home games, but then they would travel for future rounds. Selling tickets for games on Thanksgiving weekend is a challenge, but schools will bid. The first round will be the last round the committee would be able to maneuver for NCAA ticket sales. The second round onward would be determined solely by seeding. There are stadia all over the FCS, even like Richmond's new 9000-seat gem, which could limit the possible attendance in the second round, quarterfinals and semi-finals for the NCAA. Maybe this is why the committee considered a regional format and/or neutral-site semi-finals.

And I thought this string had run its course...

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Finally, as I have said elsewhere, the PFL will soon be, with Mercer and/or Stetson entering the League, close to 10% of the FCS. How do you justify keeping them out? You will be counting them as D1 wins.

[van]

Finally, as I have said elsewhere, the PFL will soon be, with Mercer and/or Stetson entering the League, close to 10% of the FCS. How do you justify keeping them out? You will be counting them as D1 wins.

Who will be counting them as D-1 wins? They hardly play anyone from an AQ conference. PFL wants to join the party, they need to upgrade their schedules and win some.

[MplsBison]

Who says that the schools of the PFL do not practice the same sort of aid calculation used in the Patriot League oh these many years? Need-based aid underpins those PFL football programs, without question. (No AI, another source of pique for MB, though).

Let's see what the implications are here, using the FCS rules. Right now there are ten AQ slots, and ten at-large. The addition of a PFL AQ, under NCAA FCS rules, means that at least one more at-large slot be added, and instead it looks as though it will add three. Eight schools will have the bye, 16 play in the first round.

The committee seems to be proposing rewriting their rule that says that only 25% of the field gets seeded. (Being 'seeded' has meant have home playoff games guaranteed until you met a higher seed.) This past season only five schools were seeded but 12 had byes. In 2011 four lower bracket schools got to host a first round game before hitting the road. In a field of 24, four more first round games means four more unseeded schools would get get home playoff games, eight in total.

In the unseeded part of the bracket, schools that guarantee big ticket sales get home games, but then they would travel for future rounds. Selling tickets for games on Thanksgiving weekend is a challenge, but schools will bid. The first round will be the last round the committee would be able to maneuver for NCAA ticket sales. The second round onward would be determined solely by seeding. There are stadia all over the FCS, even like Richmond's new 9000-seat gem, which could limit the possible attendance in the second round, quarterfinals and semi-finals for the NCAA. Maybe this is why the committee considered a regional format and/or neutral-site semi-finals.

And I thought this string had run its course...

The NCAA says. You need education on "scholarship equivalency".

The NCAA counts *all* aid that is given to football players, irregardless of its source, as equivalent to an athletic scholarship - if it meets certain criteria. I don't know the language of the exact rule, but I'm sure it could be looked up by someone with the willpower to slog through the rulebook.

Anyway, point being that every single PFL school provides *zero* scholarship equivalencies worth of aid to their players, per NCAA rules. The Patriot schools, on the other hand, have always been positive - and schools like Colgate, Lehigh are actually quite high (in the 50's).


Furthermore, you look at some of the piddly little endowments that PFL schools have and it makes you question whether the football players are receiving money from the institution *at all* !! I could very well see that players at schools like Jacksonville simply have to make due with whatever aid they can muster from Federal sources and the rest has to be covered out of pocket or with private loans.

That's despicable for a so called "Division I" football program, in my opinion.

[MplsBison]

Finally, as I have said elsewhere, the PFL will soon be, with Mercer and/or Stetson entering the League, close to 10% of the FCS. How do you justify keeping them out? You will be counting them as D1 wins.

Very easily: the playoffs are for the best teams.

If a new conference was formed comprised of the 20 worst teams in the FCS, they wouldn't deserve an auto-bid either.

[aceinthehole]

Very easily: the playoffs are for the best teams.

If a new conference was formed comprised of the 20 worst teams in the FCS, they wouldn't deserve an auto-bid either.

WRONG! The NCAA Championships are for conference champs and then best teams available fill out the at-large spots.

[MplsBison]

WRONG! The NCAA Championships are for conference champs and then best teams available fill out the at-large spots.

Your statement might be a little less specious if it wasn't so self serving. xcoffeex

[MplsBison]

I've literally reduced a grown man, with a degree from a Patriot League university no less, to a crying kindergartener.

Well...you're not coming to my birthday!!

[van]

I've literally reduced a grown man, with a degree from a Patriot League university no less, to a crying kindergartener.

Well...you're not coming to my birthday!!

Hey Bogie, no sweet sixteen party for you!

[MplsBison]

http://annoyingorange.com/wp-content/authors/Annoying%20Orange-26.png

I've literally reduced a grown man, with a degree from a Patriot League university no less, to a crying kindergartener.

Well...you're not coming to my birthday!!

[ursus arctos horribilis]

This reminds me of the old Mitch Green defense after taking an *** beating. Claim victory on every instance of defeat.

http://www.esnewsreporting.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/Mitch-Green.jpg

[MplsBison]

This reminds me of the old Mitch Green defense after taking an *** beating. Claim victory on every instance of defeat.

I've defeated the three running arguments on this thread for giving the PFL an auto-bid, 1) that they deserve it, 2) that they qualify for it, and 3) references to other NCAA sports (men's bball in particular).

It has reduced you and others to personal attacks and nonsensical pictures.

[aceinthehole]

I've defeated the three running arguments on this thread for giving the PFL an auto-bid, 1) that they deserve it, 2) that they qualify for it, and 3) references to other NCAA sports (men's bball in particular).

It has reduced you and others to personal attacks and nonsensical pictures.

Only in your own mind.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Duquesne and Georgetown, 9-2 and 8-3, respectively last year, did not get the tournament, even with all Division I schedules. What sunk them? Strength of schedule. Really, MB, I think I detect crocodile tears for the fifth CAA and that third or fourth MVFC/Big Sky school.

Stop with the lectures on equivalencies, responding to a Patriot League alum and fan base who have fended off your finger waggin for years. If schools are to play football(a good thing) and reside in NCAA Division I, they play in either the FBS or FCS. That is the rule. Back east, and in California, plenty of Division I schools populate conferences like MAAC, America East, West Coast and Big West, which don't play football because of the cost.

The PFL schools have committed to football, recruit student-athletes using need and non-athletic merit aid as they can, limit travel squads and cost share for travel to contain expenses. They field squads and may not aspire to contend the for the national championship every year, but compete each Saturday, and can be given the opportunity to put their champ into one of 24 slots. You purport to worry about aid for student athletes. They just want the opportunity to play. They can't anymore on dozens of campuses, which translates into fewer chances for young men to play the sport at the varsity level in DI. If the national title is the sole source of pride an satisfaction for a man or an institution, why the heck bother?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Only in your own mind.

I hope he really believes it. It makes it so much more fun.

[UNH Fanboi]

I agree that under the current rules the case for excluding the PFL from the playoffs seems weak.

However, if we want to talk about the way things should be, shouldn't there be some kind of minimum standard for Division I football membership and playoff participation? Why should the PFL be allowed to invest the absolute bare-minimum required to field football teams and still be allowed in the playoffs? What does it mean for FCS to be a higher division if there is no minimum standard for the division (there is for FBS)? What separates the PFL from a Division III conference? I think Mount Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater would match up very well vs. the PFL.

[UNH Fanboi]

They can't anymore on dozens of campuses, which translates into fewer chances for young men to play the sport at the varsity level in DI.

Playing DI football is not some god-given right. If there is no minimum standard for DI football participation, the DI concept loses meaning. Using your logic, the NCAA should just desclare that DII and DIII are now part of DI, as that would result in more "DI" football players.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I agree that under the current rules the case for excluding the PFL from the playoffs seems weak.

However, if we want to talk about the way things should be, shouldn't there be some kind of minimum standard for Division I football membership and playoff participation? Why should the PFL be allowed to invest the absolute bare-minimum required to field football teams and still be allowed in the playoffs? What does it mean for FCS to be a higher division if there is no minimum standard for the division (there is for FBS)? What separates the PFL from a Division III conference? I think Mount Union and Wisconsin-Whitewater would match up very well vs. the PFL.

My thoughts are thus:

Under the current system denying the PFL an autobid would make the FCS as bad as the BCS. The beauty of the FCS system is that every team has a shot to win the national championship and that all teams start off with a clean slate each season. As long as the NCAA chooses to allow non-scholarship programs at the FCS level those programs should have the opportunity to represent their conference in the playoffs.

From what I understand there is a scholarship minimum for the FBS level, and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to seeing one at the FCS level either. However, were the NCAA to institute such a rule they should revoke the 'Dayton Rule' and allow teams that don't wish to pay for a scholarship football team to still field a team at the DIII level while not giving up DI status in other sports. Otherwise I fear that many schools in the PFL would choose to end their programs instead of footing the bill for the scholarships, and I doubt anyone, even MPLS Bison, wants to see any program discontinued.

I suppose another option in the event of FCS scholarship minimums would be for the PFL schools to move their football programs to the NAIA, but I don't know if the NCAA or NAIA regulations would allow for a school to field teams in both associations at the same time.

[UNH Fanboi]

From what I understand there is a scholarship minimum for the FBS level, and I wouldn't necessarily be opposed to seeing one at the FCS level either. However, were the NCAA to institute such a rule they should revoke the 'Dayton Rule' and allow teams that don't wish to pay for a scholarship football team to still field a team at the DIII level while not giving up DI status in other sports. Otherwise I fear that many schools in the PFL would choose to end their programs instead of footing the bill for the scholarships, and I doubt anyone, even MPLS Bison, wants to see any program discontinued.

I agree that instituting a scholarship minimum and allowing DI schools to play football at a lower level would be the ideal solution. I understand why the NCAA generally does not allow schools to play different sports in different divisions (I know there are exceptions). But given the huge financial commitment necessary to play football, I think it would make sense to allow a similar exception for DI schools that want to offer football but not spend at DI levels. It's not like there is any lack of schools wanting to play high-level football. If anything, we have just the opposite problem--too many schools have delusions of grandeur and are wasting tons of money trying to climb to the top of the BCS pyramid scheme.

[DetroitFlyer]

I think that the PFL should request and receive an autobid....

[Model Citizen]

22 pages on this? Y'all move out of your mothers' basements and get jobs, ok?

[bluehenbillk]

I think that the PFL should request and receive an autobid....

+1

[RichH2]

Busy weekend, nice to see the thread still alive xholyx. Mpls still patting himself on the back continuing to ignore logic or common sense. xbangx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

22 pages on this? Y'all move out of your mothers' basements and get jobs, ok?
Great to see the completely simple smack here. Got any more completely hack gems like this in store for us?

Maybe you haven't been around much in the off season when minutia like this provides much discussion? You apparently read all or at least enough to get annoyed. That's on you.

[RichH2]

Heck, come mid July we'll be talking about macrame and hoping Steele does another FCS edition

[Bogus Megapardus]

Heck, come mid July we'll be talking about macrame and hoping Steele does another FCS edition

But, alas, there'll be no more "Will the Patriot League Get Scholarships" threads. Shame.

[MplsBison]

Duquesne and Georgetown, 9-2 and 8-3, respectively last year, did not get the tournament, even with all Division I schedules. What sunk them? Strength of schedule. Really, MB, I think I detect crocodile tears for the fifth CAA and that third or fourth MVFC/Big Sky school.

Stop with the lectures on equivalencies, responding to a Patriot League alum and fan base who have fended off your finger waggin for years. If schools are to play football(a good thing) and reside in NCAA Division I, they play in either the FBS or FCS. That is the rule. Back east, and in California, plenty of Division I schools populate conferences like MAAC, America East, West Coast and Big West, which don't play football because of the cost.

The PFL schools have committed to football, recruit student-athletes using need and non-athletic merit aid as they can, limit travel squads and cost share for travel to contain expenses. They field squads and may not aspire to contend the for the national championship every year, but compete each Saturday, and can be given the opportunity to put their champ into one of 24 slots. You purport to worry about aid for student athletes. They just want the opportunity to play. They can't anymore on dozens of campuses, which translates into fewer chances for young men to play the sport at the varsity level in DI. If the national title is the sole source of pride an satisfaction for a man or an institution, why the heck bother?

You have just placed a bejeweled capstone on the argument against a PFL auto-bid. I could not have phrased it better: "They field squads and may not aspire to contend the for the national championship every year..."


You are unequivocally correct: they do not aspire to win the national championship. How could they?! They don't make the financial commitment to the sport that's required to do so.


So if that's true......WHY SHOULD WE GIVE A SPOT IN THE PLAYOFFS?!?! xdontknowx

The only point of the playoffs to is to determine the national champion!!


It's not a participation ribbon!

[RichH2]

But, alas, there'll be no more "Will the Patriot League Get Scholarships" threads. Shame.



Topicswitch for summer WHY SCHOLARSHIPS WILL RUIN PATRIOT LEAGUE

[MplsBison]

Playing DI football is not some god-given right. If there is no minimum standard for DI football participation, the DI concept loses meaning. Using your logic, the NCAA should just desclare that DII and DIII are now part of DI, as that would result in more "DI" football players.

Well said.

I don't know about DIII, but DII does get a fair share of players who don't qualify for the minimum academic requirements of DI. That would be one thing. But honestly, if those players' opportunities have to be sacrificed...fine with me. I have trouble seeing how a young man who doesn't meet the DI minimum academic standards has a hope of graduating a university with a degree, in the first place. Let those players go to NAIA schools.


If it weren't for that academic different, there really is no reason to have separate DIII, DII and FCS divisions. The minimum financial commitment for all three divisions are exactly the same: there is none. That's what sets FBS apart from the other three. In my fantasy world, the divisions would have stepping stones for an increasing, minimum financial commitment to football. I'd love to see that.

Also why the national media doesn't take the tournaments of the other three seriously.

[MplsBison]

I agree that instituting a scholarship minimum and allowing DI schools to play football at a lower level would be the ideal solution. I understand why the NCAA generally does not allow schools to play different sports in different divisions (I know there are exceptions). But given the huge financial commitment necessary to play football, I think it would make sense to allow a similar exception for DI schools that want to offer football but not spend at DI levels. It's not like there is any lack of schools wanting to play high-level football. If anything, we have just the opposite problem--too many schools have delusions of grandeur and are wasting tons of money trying to climb to the top of the BCS pyramid scheme.

There really should be completely independent systems for football and non-football sports in the NCAA. There simply is nothing that compares. Dayton should be allowed to play DIII (or DII) football while being members of the A10 in bball. Likewise, Mount Union may wish to avoid Dayton and play in a DII conference in football, while staying in whatever DIII conference they have now in bball. Etc.


And if that had been such the case, I would've fully support NDSU moving to DI in football only - staying in something like the NCC or now the NSIC for non-football. The men's bball tounrament is the only non-football event in the NCAA that matters a crap to NDSU financially and that's becoming a smaller and smaller probability for NDSU to regularly qualify for. Especially with the terrible arena that NDSU's program occupies for home games.

[DFW HOYA]

But, alas, there'll be no more "Will the Patriot League Get Scholarships" threads. Shame.

To be replaced by, perhaps, the "Why Won't Georgetown Give Scholarships" thread.

[MplsBison]

To be replaced by, perhaps, the "Why Won't Georgetown Give Scholarships" thread.

That's an easy one: "they can't afford to". Same as Pioneer schools.

[aceinthehole]

There really should be completely independent systems for football and non-football sports in the NCAA.

Ok, your personal opinion is well known. However, that is the farthest thing from reality as far as the NCAA is concerened.


THE NCAA's CORE PURPOSE IS TO govern competition in a fair, safe, equitable and sportsmanlike manner, and to integrate intercollegiate athletics into higher education so that the educational experience of the student-athlete is paramount.

The NCAA is not going to create an 'pure' football environment just for schools that want to participate with 63 scholarships, as you seem to desire. It's not going to happen.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The only schools that ought to be allowed in FCS football are those with mortifying identity complexes which have been in Division I for less than thirty years and have no significant history of major college competition, and which rely largely on compulsory taxation of unwilling citizens to feed their aggrandized ambitions.

Unless it's the faux riches of an emboldened regime-in-possession funding those free rides, it doesn't count. The rest of you can be damned (or relegated to Division III, which ever comes first).

[RichH2]

To be replaced by, perhaps, the "Why Won't Georgetown Give Scholarships" thread.

Those 2 s/b good for 30-40 pages, if we can get Mpls to chime in. CAN THE IVY LEAGUE SURVIVE CORNELL TO JOIN PL

[TheValleyRaider]

CAN THE IVY LEAGUE SURVIVE CORNELL TO JOIN PL

Over our dead bodies! Or us in their slot, whichever... xsmiley_wix xwhistlex

[RichH2]

Now now I know we would be lowering PL academic standards by letting Cornell join but heck gives you a conference opponent nearby.xrolleyesx

[TheValleyRaider]

Now now I know we would be lowering PL academic standards by letting Cornell join but heck gives you a conference opponent nearby.xrolleyesx

Hey, if HC coulda been in the Big East, we coulda been in the Ivy League xreadx

No help for SUNY-Ithaca! xcoachx

[MplsBison]

Ok, your personal opinion is well known. However, that is the farthest thing from reality as far as the NCAA is concerened.



The NCAA is not going to create an 'pure' football environment just for schools that want to participate with 63 scholarships, as you seem to desire. It's not going to happen.

Yes I know it's not going to happen.

But does it make any sense whatsoever that DIII, DII and FCS all have the exact same minimum financial requirement to the football program: zero?

No, it doesn't.

[MplsBison]

Take it to the extreme of the extreme.

Name any DI basketball school without a varsity football team you want. They could do the following and it would be allowed under NCAA rules:

- every year hold a try-out among the study body and select up to 85 students to be on the football team to play games only, no scholarships or aid will be given to any player
- ask for volunteers to be the coaching and support staff on gameday only, no money will be given to any of them
- ask for all equipment, supplies and travel expenses to be donated
- there are no practices, just show up on gameday and play - this keeps costs down

This would be allowed as a varsity program in FCS. The rules do no prohibit such a program.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hey, if HC coulda been in the Big East, we coulda been in the Ivy League xreadx


Everybody knows that Colgate was on the bubble and was "first out" when Ivy held its Selection Sunday. Maybe Colgate's problem was (a) that it didn't suck so it didn't "need" the Ivy and (b) that it might have been unwilling to give up scholarships.

[MplsBison]

Cornell endowment: 5.28 billion
Colgate endowment: 693 million

That may have had something to do with it?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Cornell endowment: 5.28 billion
Colgate endowment: 693 million

That may have had something to do with it?

In 1954?

[TheValleyRaider]

Everybody knows that Colgate was on the bubble and was "first out" when Ivy held its Selection Sunday. Maybe Colgate's problem was (a) that it didn't suck so it didn't "need" the Ivy and (b) that it might have been unwilling to give up scholarships.

Colgate never gave open athletic scholarships, football or otherwise, until 2004

[Bogus Megapardus]

Colgate never gave open athletic scholarships, football or otherwise, until 2004

Well, that couldn't have been it, then.

[LakesBison]

please tell me this expansion isnt happening...

[RichH2]

Ok, ifyou promise to go away, I'll tell you

[LakesBison]

well it shouldnt be 24, thats ridiculious!

[DetroitFlyer]

Man, I had a great idea today. I think the PFL should apply for and receive an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs starting with the 2013 season!

[MplsBison]

Man, I had a great idea today. I think the PFL should apply for and receive an automatic bid to the FCS playoffs starting with the 2013 season!

Why hasn't the PFL applied for an automatic bid since 2001?

Nothing has changed.

[danefan]

Why hasn't the PFL applied for an automatic bid since 2001?


How do you know it hasn't?

[DetroitFlyer]

How do you know it hasn't?

She has not been paying attention....

[jmu_duke07]

24 teams is fine, I like giving the opportunity for more athletes and fans to experience the playoffs.

DON'T GO TO A REGIONAL MODEL! The regional model rewards mediocre teams that have great season records but don't play any good teams.

Put the conference champs in and let the best teams across the country get the remaining playoff spots. Don't try to build a model that gives proportionate playoff spots to a midwest region, an east region, a southeast region, ect.

That's already in place... it's called the Big Sky autobid

[MplsBison]

How do you know it hasn't?

Because they don't have one now.

You all have pointed that the PFL will automatically get the AQ now because they're applying for one.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

That's already in place... it's called the Big Sky autobid

And proof that it doesn't make a difference since the CAA is 0-3 in the last couple years against those teams huh?

Hell they even go into the #1 ranked CAA champs house and stomp the **** out of em' sometimes.

[LakesBison]

I hate this, screw the regional thing, what if the best 3-4 teams are NDSU, UNI, MONTANA STATE? we all have to play each other right away?

weak as hell.

[danefan]

I hate this, screw the regional thing, what if the best 3-4 teams are NDSU, UNI, MONTANA STATE? we all have to play each other right away?

weak as hell.

I agree with the regional crap. Seed everyone 1-24.

[GSU Eagle]

I am in favor of seeding as many teams as possible. At the least I think the top 8 should be seeded. If the tourney goes to 24 next year (which I am inclined to believe it will) if you seed 8 it gives a couple of weeks for those 8 to sell tickets and it rewards the top 8 with home games.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I am in favor of seeding as many teams as possible. At the least I think the top 8 should be seeded. If the tourney goes to 24 next year (which I am inclined to believe it will) if you seed 8 it gives a couple of weeks for those 8 to sell tickets and it rewards the top 8 with home games.
I think they would definitely do that or maybe I should say I am with you that I strongly hope it is that. Can't see the reasoning for not going that far with it.

[Silenoz]

That's already in place... it's called the Big Sky autobid

Yes, we're the weak link out of the AQ conferences right now... lol


They need to bump up the seeds to at least 8. Seeding the entire pool will probably never be feasible, sadly

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Yes, we're the weak link out of the AQ conferences right now... lol


They need to bump up the seeds to at least 8. Seeding the entire pool will probably never be feasible, sadly

And even if they did seed all it would not make a difference. They would be doing the seeding and it would work out close but just enough leeway to still make the most logical choices for travel.

[MplsBison]

Shouldn't the schools that can make the NCAA the most money always be hosting the playoff games in each round?

Don't get me wrong, Eastern Washington had a great team in 2010 - but boy did they make FCS look like DIII with their stadium.