Trouble Brewing in Boone?

[WH49er]

http://www.theappalachianonline.com/campus/8667-athletes-accusedcontroversy-grows-as-administration-reverses-suspension-for-two-football-players-found-responsible-by-a-university-conduct-board



Sad to hear. Sounding like a school divided.

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://www.theappalachianonline.com/campus/8667-athletes-accusedcontroversy-grows-as-administration-reverses-suspension-for-two-football-players-found-responsible-by-a-university-conduct-board

Sad to hear. Sounding like a school divided.


It sounds to me more like a complainant who was unable to sustain a case when it was reviewed against an objective standard. Just because someone complains, and the subject of the complaint happens to be an athlete, it doesn't mean there was a "rape" or that a student's successful appeal means that a "school is divided." The only ones complaining are those who favor a lesser burden for accusations of sexual assault, and a higher burden placed on athletes, than for other types of misconduct under the university's guidelines. There are student at hyper-liberal institutions who are alleging that a poor grade from a graduate teaching assistant constitutes "sexual assault," for goodness sake. Jumping to conclusions like this is something The New York Times and other sensational media engage in - and that's a poor example to follow, for certain.

[StorminASU]

http://www.theappalachianonline.com/campus/8667-athletes-accusedcontroversy-grows-as-administration-reverses-suspension-for-two-football-players-found-responsible-by-a-university-conduct-board

Sad to hear. Sounding like a school divided.

It's sad if it did happen, but it seems as though several of her own teammates have came forward saying she made it up. Also, these guys are being labeled as guilty in the public arena by a student court; the DA did not pursue the case. This all stinks to me like the girls just wanted to cause a fuss after a drunken night of regrets. This sucks for ASU because it seems as though the admin is getting dragged through the mud over something being blown out of proportion. There's people on that very site linked saying they were sexually abused while at ASU and the admin did everything possible to ensure the person was brought to justice. Involve a football player and surely he must be guilty according to a lot of ideological, bandwagon jumping, institution fighting liberal arts college students.

All this over something lacking enough evidence for the DA to prosecute on.

[StorminASU]

It sounds to me more like a complainant who was unable to sustain a case when it was reviewed against an objective standard. Just because someone complains, and the subject of the complaint happens to be an athlete, it doesn't mean there was a "rape" or that a student's successful appeal means that a "school is divided." The only ones complaining are those who favor a lesser burden for accusations of sexual assault, and a higher burden placed on athletes, than for other types of misconduct under the university's guidelines.

Very objective review I believe. If these girls were raped (meaning they weren't agreeing at the time only to regret it later), then football player or not, these people should be prosecuted in a REAL court, not some make believe student court. These girls are painting themselves as just wanting to make a fuss. Again, if this did happen, I hope the people involved are punished to the full extent, but this is not the way you handle something like this.

[Apphole]

Thread should be renamed, "Girls Unsatisfied with American Due Process Law, Blame University"

[Bogus Megapardus]

Exactly - saying the students were "let off" becasue of "a piece of paperwork." Paperwork? Meaning the text of the law or regulation that must be applied blindly in each and every case? So if the complaining students win, isn't that becasue of a "piece of paperwork" as well?

[StorminASU]

Thread should be renamed, "Girls Unsatisfied with American Due Process Law, Blame University"

Everyone is worried that this makes national news, I just don't see a reputable (read: not the Appalachian newspaper) news company picking this up. I don't think this thing has legs. The Appalachian newspaper published something because it sensed a controversial story, not because of credible sources. This is BS. If you can't tell by my many posts, this whole thing is pissing me off.

[asumike83]

It seems like there is a serious disconnect here. If this happened, why would you alert the school instead of law enforcement? If this is true, anyone involved deserves to be punished but this just doesn't seem like the way an accusation this serious would be handled.

[Bogus Megapardus]

All this over something lacking enough evidence for the DA to prosecute on.

It's not "Sexual Assault" unless there's guilty verdict in a public court. And it's not even "alleged sexual assault" unless a DA brings an indictment; only a public prosecutor can "allege" assault. A complaining person can describe what happened, but only a trained prosecutor decides whether the circumstances so described rise to the level of a "sexual assault." Neither the complaining person, nor a newspaper, is at liberty to conclude that some complained-of conduct constitutes "sexual assault.

It looks to me as if the student-athletes have a pretty decent libel case against the newspaper.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Blame University


I blame Obama.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Wow, I agree with everyone's posts so far.

[citdog]

Wow, I agree with everyone's posts so far.

Do 'ya?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Do 'ya?

I said I did didn't I?

[citdog]

I said I did didn't I?

did 'ya?

[ursus arctos horribilis]

did 'ya?

I said I did so I obviously did.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Everyone is worried that this makes national news, I just don't see a reputable (read: not the Appalachian newspaper) news company picking this up. I don't think this thing has legs. The Appalachian newspaper published something because it sensed a controversial story, not because of credible sources. This is BS. If you can't tell by my many posts, this whole thing is pissing me off.

I agree - it's not national news. I don't even think it's news at all. Most campus newspapers wouldn't publish it, except to write in a security/police blotter that one student registered a conduct complaint about another. Neither the complainant nor the students complained of should be named.

The hit piece that the Yale Daily News did about Patrick Witt is inexcusable. (Then again, many Yale Daily News alumni write for The New York Times.) I certainly hope that the Witt situation hasn't set a precedent for student reporting across the nation.

We in the Patriot League at last have recognized that we don't have to do everything just becasue Yale does it. It's seems to be to be a worthwhile lesson for all.

[mountaineerman]

obama the best president since bill clinton

[SoCon48]

http://www.theappalachianonline.com/campus/8667-athletes-accusedcontroversy-grows-as-administration-reverses-suspension-for-two-football-players-found-responsible-by-a-university-conduct-board



Sad to hear. Sounding like a school divided.

Yeah, 50 students out of 17,000 protested.

[SoCon48]

It sounds to me more like a complainant who was unable to sustain a case when it was reviewed against an objective standard. Just because someone complains, and the subject of the complaint happens to be an athlete, it doesn't mean there was a "rape" or that a student's successful appeal means that a "school is divided." The only ones complaining are those who favor a lesser burden for accusations of sexual assault, and a higher burden placed on athletes, than for other types of misconduct under the university's guidelines. There are student at hyper-liberal institutions who are alleging that a poor grade from a graduate teaching assistant constitutes "sexual assault," for goodness sake. Jumping to conclusions like this is something The New York Times and other sensational media engage in - and that's a poor example to follow, for certain.



Post of the year.

[StorminASU]

Yeah, 50 students out of 17,000 protested.

I think he was banking on this being a big deal. I'm just happy this didn't go national even though I don't think there's anything to this story...hopefully I'm not speaking too soon.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I think he was banking on this being a big deal. I'm just happy this didn't go national even though I don't think there's anything to this story...hopefully I'm not speaking too soon.

You may be. It only takes a small group to organize an email/social media campaign and get the emotionally weak to jump on and vilify from afar. Hope it doesn't happen but if they feel wronged and are motivated then it can get ugly quick.

Look at what happens with fairly simple jokes and comments from anyone remotely polarizing on twitter or Facebook.

[StorminASU]

You may be. It only takes a small group to organize an email/social media campaign and get the emotionally weak to jump on and vilify from afar. Hope it doesn't happen but if they feel wronged and are motivated then it can get ugly quick.

Look at what happens with fairly simple jokes and comments from anyone remotely polarizing on twitter or Facebook.

The reason I said that is because this group already has launched the facebook attack along with some other petition website (I can't remember the name currently although I know it's well known). They supposedly had "professional" (giggle giggle) OWS protestors there today and I read that the news channel out of Charlotte came up today too. I said all that to say I feel like if it was going regional, or national, today would have been the day. I hope I'm right.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

The reason I said that is because this group already has launched the facebook attack along with some other petition website (I can't remember the name currently although I know it's well known). They supposedly had "professional" (giggle giggle) OWS protestors there today and I read that the news channel out of Charlotte came up today too. I said all that to say I feel like if it was going regional, or national, today would have been the day. I hope I'm right.

Ahh, I got ya. Remember though it's the weekend news cycle and that can work to the advantage for it to not take hold but if the **** gains steam by Monday it could work the other way and be news (not necessarily big nationally) by Tues. or Wed. next week.

A few days to a week to reach a tipping point and it may be less than flattering in public opinion with those that give a cursory review of the topic...which is pretty much all of us.

[Mr. C]

This same type of thing erupted in Boone back about a decade and a half ago when a girl claimed she had been "raped" by four football players after her allegedly "racist" parents found out she had been sleeping around with boys of a different race. I knew a female DA in this girls' dormitory and received other creditable reports from those on campus that the girl had consensual sex with four guys and reported "rape" after the fact when her parents found out. The university acted quickly to suspend the four student-athletes and kicked them out of school, but later had to settle a law suit with the students-athletes. One of the kids had a potential NFL career ruined by these allegations. Ironically, some of the same elements of ASU society where quick to hold protests, calling for the heads of then-chancellor Dr. Francis Borkowski and coach Jerry Moore. To me, it feels like the same thing is repeating itself all over again, but this time, the university hasn't been so quick to destroy the academic careers of student-athletes who should be innocent until proven guilty.

[asumike83]

I keep as up to date on all things ASU-related as anyone and even I really have no idea what is going on. I hope it is dealt with if there is truth to the allegations but honestly, I'm not sure there is enough information out there for this to become a story. The only way I see that happening is if it goes to court, which apparently a DA has already decided against. There seem to be conflicting stories and no real evidence of a crime; I'd be surprised if this carries on much longer.

[cbarrier90]

The Winston-Salem Journal posted what I believe to be the best article which takes both parties equally into account. Finding eloquent, insightful journalism in The Appalachian is tougher than finding a needle in a haystack.

http://www2.journalnow.com/news/2012/mar/03/1/wsmain01-students-rally-at-appalachian-state-ar-1997562/

The most frustrating aspect of the situation is watching my fellow students take to the Internet to speak their minds on this situation without knowing all the facts and making outrageous assumptions. The situation currently presented sounds like a case of a night of partying gone wrong, but again, we know little more than "he said, she said" testimony.

Social media is a wonderful thing, but all it takes is a student who enjoys protesting for the sake of protesting before the accusations and accounts of the situation become more and more slanted.

By no means do I want to make light of the situation, but for now it looks like the students and community are rightfully in a holding pattern as far as their opinions of the case are concerned. If we ever learn more about what really happened, that may change. For now, it appears to be a situation very similar to the one Mr. C has presented.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

This accusation is an unfortunate, common event-- student-on-student sexual assault. What is really troubling here is a cascade of failure: of University policy, such that the UNC system/USDOE policy has had to be invoked; in training, as it was someone's judgement that the student code of conduct's adjudicators and administrators were insufficiently trained on sexual assault ( a predictable potential on-campus crime) so state higher ed officials end the convicted students' suspensions while awaiting essentially another hearing; so botched a process for tending to the needs of the apparent victims that they are conducting a trial by Facebook and filing civil rights complaints; and a screwed-up media outlet which is publishing victims' names but shielding the accused (first time I have ever seen that), while not illuminating the mess of a process originally pursued by University enforcement.

I have been a community volunteer sexual assault counselor, a state department of education hearing officer on sex ed matters and a student life staff member at a private college at different points in my life. Sexual assault is grossly underreported. The numbers are something at or under 10% of all assaults get reported, with a fraction of those charges going to trial, and a fraction of those tried convicted. Conviction is more likely when a victim is willing to testify. Willingness is hard to come by when it: 1) involves a student community, where there is a desire to just move past the nasty episode and to dissolve back into 'normal' campus life: 2) the inevitable scrutiny of the lifestyle of any accuser and slurring to destroy his/her credibility by the defense in any disciplinary process; 3) the likelihood that, absent physical evidence and/or witnesses, conviction comes down solely to credibility and, in those cases, a perp usually walks; and 4) the requirement, in telling the story over and over again, to relive a trauma. ANYONE coming forward to report such an event deserves discretion and respect, even as the rights of the accused are safeguarded. No one just cries "rape". The social costs are generally way too high, particularly on a college campus.

As willing as I am to listen to sexual assault complaints and act against perpetrators, I am pretty leery of Johnny and Joanie Pre-Law jurisprudence. The standards of evidence and willingness to accept hearsay can be suspect, the trials often open, and the nuances of degrees of sexual assault absent in understanding and in penalties. Years ago I got pressed into advising one such accused student, and was helpless to interrupt a very public lynching of a Dean's List student, the sole prosecuted (unwitnessed) drunken act of unwanted touching out of ten reported that semester.

Sexual assault education for all students, not simply a mandatory orientation recitation of policy and signing of the student code, is not some politically correct exercise-- young people's lives are at stake. Are UNC system campuses exempt from municipal, county and state laws? Campus officials who do not want local deputy sheriffs and detectives on-campus "just asking questions" and locking up undergraduates, names in the press, need to provide proper education, enforcement and due-process, or leave it to the pros.

I assume the website is University-owned, which might explain the lack of coverage of the past process in question. The result is just a centimeter beyond the smack page on this board while (badly) covering ASU's really exposed administrative butt.

[Wildcat80]

If crimes were committed the students need to go to the POLICE. Why complain about school suspensions if you were raped????

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yes, it's always the university's fault -


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/01/stonehill-college-student-from-ny-suing-school-over-roommates-disturbingly-open-sex-life/

[FormerPokeCenter]

It seems like there is a serious disconnect here. If this happened, why would you alert the school instead of law enforcement?

Apparently, the Joe Paterno model is all the rage now...

[Wildcat80]

Yes, it's always the university's fault -


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/03/01/stonehill-college-student-from-ny-suing-school-over-roommates-disturbingly-open-sex-life/

Well at least no mention of any football player....yet.

[UNH Fanboi]

If crimes were committed the students need to go to the POLICE. Why complain about school suspensions if you were raped????

Because the standard of proof is so much lower

[Twentysix]

Because the standard of proof is so much lower

If you are found to be lieing about being raped, if you had just alerted the university and not the legal authorities wouldn't you be in "less" trouble?

I have no clue what the scenario is for this situation. I just assume that ruining someones life when it is a blatant lie is illegal. (Again, not related to this)

must.....sleep.....

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bogus, if you are implying I think the University's pretense of having a proper, coherent and fair shadow legal system somehow allows for or absolves sexual assault, it is quite the contrary. Between the lines it seems as though the facts at least in one case will stand up through a second procedure, in someone's mind. But to think that some likely perp(s) is(are) still on campus due to mickey-mouse administration is really disturbing but frankly easier to discuss than the gossiped details of the alleged events.

Folks need to cease speculating on the motives of the accusers (trials are for that), and discuss why it is we all know so little yet so much in this case. I wish I didn't know a thimbleful, wish everyone well, but that aint the way this situation is unfolding. There are some angry people on Facebook and they are likely stomping over something more than a bad grade from a grad assistant-sheesh.

[AppMan]

I seem to remember a similar situation at Duke a few years back........

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus, if you are implying I think the University's pretense of having a proper, coherent and fair shadow legal system somehow allows for or absolves sexual assault, it is quite the contrary. Between the lines it seems as though the facts at least in one case will stand up through a second procedure, in someone's mind. But to think that some likely perp(s) is(are) still on campus due to mickey-mouse administration is really disturbing but frankly easier to discuss than the gossiped details of the alleged events.

Folks need to cease speculating on the motives of the accusers (trials are for that), and discuss why it is we all know so little yet so much in this case. I wish I didn't know a thimbleful, wish everyone well, but that aint the way this situation is unfolding. There are some angry people on Facebook and they are likely stomping over something more than a bad grade from a grad assistant-sheesh.


BucBison, I understand. I really do. I have served as a sexual harassment investigator, counselor and policy setter for several organizations, and I have designed and written the harassment procedures for dozens of organizations.

Against this background, it is my contention that, in the past twenty years, American higher education has supplanted reason with emotion when it comes to such matters. The college experience, including instruction of what constitutes "justice," has become more of an exercise of personal therapy than a discipline of vigorous thought. It no longer matters what we "think." All that matters is what we "feel." Rigorous, scientific evaluation of the human condition has given way to cheap, lazy, visceral reaction and snap judgment.

College aged students today have grown up learning that the purpose of “justice” is to punish those who make others "feel bad" and to provide recompense for bruised emotions. There's no objective measuring stick - the degree to which a "victim" is "harmed" and is entitled to legal retribution is based entirely on one's say-so. It's the "Oprah" generation . . . "This makes me feel bad, and you should feel the same way. We all should. It has to be someone's fault. Let's punish him so we can feel better about ourselves."

This is the sort of thin, unevolved, undisciplined thought that our system of higher education was established to reject. Great universities were founded in order to develop minds to a level far above and beyond Oprah-think. Where we once studied the great eastern and western philosophers to discover the complexities of the human mind, we now send students to "Occupy" protests for credit and sit in circles complaining about our childhood or lack of personal satisfaction or fulfillment. And most important, students today are taught that one's lack of personal satisfaction or fulfillment always is someone else's fault. Always.

If a typical college student’s notion of what constitutes “justice” in western society has devolved into an exercise of repeating “me too” after reading unverified hearsay on a Facebook page, then it’s time to re-examine the fundamentals of American higher education.

[FormerPokeCenter]

Do rape victims in the work place stop at notifying upper management when a rape occurs, or do they call the police?

What about rape victims who happen to live in Apartment complexes? Do they notify the police, or merely the Apartment Manager? And, failing a satisfactory finding by the Apartment Manager, do they then decide to hold a trail on the merits at the next meeting of the Tenant's Association, or might it be more appropriate to petition the local police depart, the local sheriff's department, the local DA's office and, failing that, the state's attorney general and/or state police?

I don't know enough about the facts to speculate, I just think that if you're raped, you'd want a fairly significant and relevant examination of the facts, conducted by people with access to forensic investigation techniques, etc...

[ASUMountaineer]

Do rape victims in the work place stop at notifying upper management when a rape occurs, or do they call the police?

What about rape victims who happen to live in Apartment complexes? Do they notify the police, or merely the Apartment Manager? And, failing a satisfactory finding by the Apartment Manager, do they then decide to hold a trail on the merits at the next meeting of the Tenant's Association, or might it be more appropriate to petition the local police depart, the local sheriff's department, the local DA's office and, failing that, the state's attorney general and/or state police?

I don't know enough about the facts to speculate, I just think that if you're raped, you'd want a fairly significant and relevant examination of the facts, conducted by people with access to forensic investigation techniques, etc...

According to police reports, both incidents happened off campus and both were reported to Watauga County PD. Apparently, the DA has decided that the first case lacks enough evidence to move forward. The second case the DA has offered the alleged victim to move forward, but the alleged victim has decided to hold off on moving forward with criminal charges until after the case is complete with the University Student Conduct Board. Of everything that has been reported about these cases, these facts suggest that we all take pause and wait for all of the facts to come out before rushing to judgment.


In an affidavit, sheriff's office Capt. Dee Dee Rominger stated she interviewed the alleged victim at Watauga Medical Center, where a sexual assault kit was performed. The sheriff's office executed a search warrant on Sept. 21, 2011, and collected saliva swabs for DNA from two men. Both were members of the ASU football team at the time.

Though he would not confirm the victim's name in this case, District Attorney Jerry Wilson said the case is still under investigation, and no criminal charges have been filed. Assistant District Attorney Charlie Byrd said the district attorney's office is awaiting the results of DNA testing from the State Bureau of Investigation, which he said takes at least a year. When asked when the DNA results are expected, Wilson said it would be “a while.”

The DNA results, however, will not be pivotal in the office's decision to prosecute the case, Wilson said. He said he is waiting for the alleged victim to decide if she wants to go forward with prosecution after the outcome of upcoming University Conduct Board proceedings.

“That will be the deciding factor,” Wilson said.

http://www2.wataugademocrat.com/News/story/ASU-actions-under-scrutiny-id-007147

[SoCon48]

In case the resident UNC-Cers get holier than thou, my daughter was a dorm counselor there and she personally knew of several un-reported sexual assaults that took place on and off campus. The sad thing is at least one led to pregnancy.

[chattownmocs]

So why did they pull the article of the website?

[SoCon48]

Bogus, if you are implying I think the University's pretense of having a proper, coherent and fair shadow legal system somehow allows for or absolves sexual assault, it is quite the contrary. Between the lines it seems as though the facts at least in one case will stand up through a second procedure, in someone's mind. But to think that some likely perp(s) is(are) still on campus due to mickey-mouse administration is really disturbing but frankly easier to discuss than the gossiped details of the alleged events.

Folks need to cease speculating on the motives of the accusers (trials are for that), and discuss why it is we all know so little yet so much in this case. I wish I didn't know a thimbleful, wish everyone well, but that aint the way this situation is unfolding. There are some angry people on Facebook and they are likely stomping over something more than a bad grade from a grad assistant-sheesh.

Where are the witnesses to this alleged incident or incindents????? Sounds like that would help put this thing to rest one way or other.

[fc97]

Where are the witnesses to this alleged incident or incindents????? Sounds like that would help put this thing to rest one way or other.

unfortunately in cases like this no witness is needed as the justice system (whether internal or external) requires burden of non-guilt rather than guilt

this is now a court of public opinion on this case rather than a court of fact

didnt something similar happen at utc a few years ago

[chattownmocs]

unfortunately in cases like this no witness is needed as the justice system (whether internal or external) requires burden of non-guilt rather than guilt

this is now a court of public opinion on this case rather than a court of fact

didnt something similar happen at utc a few years ago

How is that unfortunate? You think there should have to be a witness in a sexual assault case. Do you understand what it would be like if there had to be a witness? This isn't Saudi Arabia buddy.

As far as the UTC situation.... This is what happened... Can't say how it realtes to this case since the article has been deleted.

"She testified yesterday that she attended a football game and cheered for the players the day after the alleged Oct. 21 rape and then had consensual sex with another player hours before going to police on Oct. 23.

The judge threw out rape charges against DeJuan Payne, 21, of Stone Mountain, Ga.; Muhammad Ahmad Abdus-Salaam, 19, of Atlanta; Lironnie Davis, 19, of Macon, Ga.; Cori Stukes, 22, of Wilmington, N.C.; Terrence Thomas, 20, of Lithonia, Ga.; and Larry White, 21, of College Park, Ga."

[asumike83]

How is that unfortunate? You think there should have to be a witness in a sexual assault case. Do you understand what it would be like if there had to be a witness? This isn't Saudi Arabia buddy.

I don't think he meant that every sexual assault should require a witness. I took it to mean that in all these cases, there is a burden of proof of non-guilt which makes anyone accused of this guilty until proven innocent and always guilty in the court of public opinion; that is what's unfortunate.

If the allegations are true then action needs to be taken. However, the school is not the one who should be taking it. This whole situation has just been very badly mishandled all around.

[SoCon48]

unfortunately in cases like this no witness is needed as the justice system (whether internal or external) requires burden of non-guilt rather than guilt

this is now a court of public opinion on this case rather than a court of fact

didnt something similar happen at utc a few years ago


Exactly on all points.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Bogus, I share a lot of your feelings. Any student who has been a victim of sexual assault and thinks that student justice will somehow help him/her recover is seriously mis-advised.

[fc97]

I don't think he meant that every sexual assault should require a witness. I took it to mean that in all these cases, there is a burden of proof of non-guilt which makes anyone accused of this guilty until proven innocent and always guilty in the court of public opinion; that is what's unfortunate.

If the allegations are true then action needs to be taken. However, the school is not the one who should be taking it. This whole situation has just been very badly mishandled all around.

exactly, these things are always spun into guilty until proven innocent to the public and the way this is being handled, this is a big court of public opinion rather than a court of law

at utc, the guys were still suspended as they were railed as being guilty until the charges were dropped