GTTS: Patriot League Expansion

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I've made a blog posting talking a bit about the reasons for Patriot League expansion and the types of schools that would be in consideration.

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

It ended up being so big that I decided to break it up into 2 different postings! Part II will be posted tomorrow night!

All I can say is that expansion isn't as simple as it sounds - and you'll have to wait until tomorrow to find out who I picked as potential Patriot League teams. :D

[Fordham]

Good stuff, LFN. I appreciate some of the PL background that I wasn't aware of in its "intelligent design."

One comment I have is that I hope we never go to a 2 division set up. Given the playoffs, I'd never want to have a play-in game and I think doing the divisional thing is just going to lend itself to confusion & arguments v. sticking with one division made up of no more than 9 teams.

Looking forward to part II.

[dbackjon]

Nice article - but one comment - 9 teams is not a problem for football - it gives you 8 conference games and only 3 OOC to schedule. With bye weeks, etc - not all conference teams have to be playing conference games the same weekends. 9 is horrendous for basketball, though.

[Tribefan]

The Patriot league should add Syracuse:)

[Pard4Life]

Yes LFN, read it at lunch.. very informative and insightful. Too bad about the closed door attitude at the PL offices.

I am not sure how a two division format would effect the PL, but I would not be happy with not playing Colgate Bucknell or Fordham each year. If we go to nine teams it would be close to a two division format. Ten would smooth things out nicely. Like I speculated yesterday...

Bucknell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, Lafayette, Lehigh, G'town, Richmond, Villanova.. but who knows... These teams would kill each other each year.

[Go...gate]

GREAT THREAD!!!!! :thumbsup:

IMO, can't see PL beyond 8 FB schools and 9 overall. I also think that American University should not be underestimated - they are spending a lot of money on facilities and academics and have grown their endowment well in the past twenty years. They are also a national power in certain non-revenue sports as soccer. If anything, American may be the "template" for a school such as a Marist or Duquesne to join the PL. I'm very much looking forward to your Part 2.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Part II is out...

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com

[LeopardFan04]

Great job...I think 9 for football could be the magic number, and then maybe 10 for basketball...I don't think divisions for football are the best thing...how is BU's stadium, the website that is linked says it's seats 15K...has anyone been there? What is it like? It kind of reminds me of Fisher Field at least from that picture...

[mainejeff]

America East wants Hopkins too.

[ngineer]

Excellent read. The BU supposition is certainly an interesting thought. Adding two schools for a 9 team league, without divisions, is the best IMO.Still leaves 3 games of OOC. the Hopkins/VMI consideration would also balance out the PL regionally--plus add some nice destination trips.

[colgate13]

America East wants Hopkins too.
If Hopkins were to want to move up, PL lacrosse is an attractive place.

Ultimately though, I just don't see any D III teams moving up.

Finally, I think expansion is a moot point until we allow football scholarships, and then we'll see who is interested. I don't think we're going after anyone until that is resolved.

[Pard4Life]

America East wants Hopkins too.

I think Lafayette might have a one-up on that since our president, Dan Weiss, was their Dean of Arts and Sciences and was a popular force over there. I hope he was some pull.

[*****]

Yeah, nine conference members is perfect for football.

[Pard94]

In addition to the Dan Weiss/Hopkins connection, John Troxell, former Pard player and coach, just took over the HC job at Franklin and Marshall. Just something to consider.

[colgate13]

Anyone know the last time a D III school moved up to Division I-AA football - that wasn't forced to by the NCAA? Albany?

[carney2]

Nicely done, LFN. Some real "out of the box" stuff here. I think that most of us have been thinking Villanova, Richmond and even W&M on the expansion issue. Mr. 13 broke the rigid thinking mold a few months ago when he mentioned Johns Hopkins. Now you have thrown BU, VMI and even The Citadel (although my first read of your Part II leaves me somewhat confused on them) into the mix. Like 13, I am totally ignoring any of the D-IIIs at this point, but you have certainly expanded the list of potentials.

Now the question is: What are the probabilities for each school? If you assume that, as many have stated, nothing happens until football scholarships become a reality, AND you assume that Mr. 13's crystal ball forecast of play-for-pay football in the Patriot League in 2010 is realistic, then, based on current information:

Richmond almost did it a year or two ago. Why not?

Nova still has delusions of grandeur. An internal war would have to be waged before this could happen.

W&M - Most people tend to forget that this is a state university. They seem content with, and well suited to, their current affiliation. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Boston University has to fight so many internal fights (revive football) before anything can even be dreamed of.

VMI - Why not? But with that military thing going on, one has to wonder if they can ever be competitive in the revenue sports.

Johns Hopkins - A "fit" in many ways, but the high visibility sports would have to undergo so many changes that this is a very long shot.

Marist and Duquesne don't look like fits to me, but...

LaSalle - Please say it aint so.

The Citadel - With geography and "top league" status going for them in the SoCon, why would they ever leave?

All of those other D-IIIs mentioned are non-starters in my opinion.

Conclusion: The landscape outside of the Patriot League has to change drastically before some of this happens. On that front, the BCS vs. Playoff designations - or whatever happens there - and the impending changes to the A-10/CAA (Don't ask for details. I don't have any.) are a beginning.

[Pard4Life]

I would love to see Hopkins move up to the PL and have often speculated this several times, but you point out many huge hurdles LFN. Does Hopkins even need to go to D1? They already have a solid image and name recognition, would athletics do anything to enhance that? Expenese... is linked to everything, especially my last question... and is football worth it? What about attendence? Would people actually show up of Hopkins football games? And rivalries... Gettysburg takes the view at the bottom of our competitive noses, but it is important to them.. and it will face resistance.. imagine Lafayette gettnig rid of the Lehigh game to move to D3... oh wait that almost happened...

And, how much would Hopkins be willing to compromise their D3 philosophy? True, the PL holds true to the scholarship-athlete concept. But let's face it, there are members of our football teams who are not the brightest bulbs in the lot. Would Hopkins tolerate this?

VMI is interesting, but the quality of their teams are usually bad in basketball and football.. although I think Lehigh almost choked vs. them in 2003 or 2004 :rolleyes: . How close are they to G'town. I also like the prospect of drawing closer with the SoCon in football. But, the A10/CAA would seem more logical. If we can grab BU IF they ever come back, maybe that could be our ticket to closer A10 relations.

Great breakdown and speculation... you did a great job LFN. :thumbsup:

PS Is this a typo? " For example, take Villanova of the Big East and Richmond of the Atlantic 10"

[Pard4Life]

Nicely done, LFN. Some real "out of the box" stuff here. I think that most of us have been thinking Villanova, Richmond and even W&M on the expansion issue. Mr. 13 broke the rigid thinking mold a few months ago when he mentioned Johns Hopkins. Now you have thrown BU, VMI and even The Citadel (although my first read of your Part II leaves me somewhat confused on them) into the mix. Like 13, I am totally ignoring any of the D-IIIs at this point, but you have certainly expanded the list of potentials.

Now the question is: What are the probabilities for each school? If you assume that, as many have stated, nothing happens until football scholarships become a reality, AND you assume that Mr. 13's crystal ball forecast of play-for-pay football in the Patriot League in 2010 is realistic, then, based on current information:

Richmond almost did it a year or two ago. Why not?

Nova still has visons of grandeur. An internal war would have to be waged before this could happen.

W&M - Most people tend to forget that this is a state university. They seem content with, and well suited to, their current affiliation. If it aint broke, don't fix it.

Boston University has to fight so many internal fights (revive football) before anything can even be dreamed of.

VMI - Why not? But with that military thing going on, one has to wonder if they can ever be competitive in the revenue sports.

Johns Hopkins - A "fit" in many ways, but the high visibility sports would have to undergo so many changes that this is a very long shot.

Marist and Duquesne don't look like fits to me, but...

LaSalle - Please say it aint so.

The Citadel - With geography and "top league" status going for them in the SoCon, why would they ever leave?

All of those other D-IIIs mentioned are non-starters in my opinion.

Conclusion: The landscape outside of the Patriot League has to change drastically before some of this happens. On that front, the BCS vs. Playoff designations - or whatever happens there - and the impending changes to the A-10/CAA (Don't ask for details. I don't have any.) are a beginning.

I agree Carney, we have to wait until some of the other pieces on the chess board move before we move ours. We must implement football scholarships if our league is gonig to grow.

[colgate13]

VMI and Richmond would be nice additions and IMO the most probable. VMI in all sports and Richmond in football. It would give us 9 full members and 9 football schools. It would also give us an expanded southern footprint and give Georgetown some more games closer by.

Villanova in football too would be nice, but if push came to shove I'd take a full member over an affiliate any day. In my dream world, I'd like Richmond to start as an affiliate and move to all sports like 10 years later when basketball was further along in our league.

[arkstfan]

If I could get one of them "consultant" gigs I'd tell I-AA leagues to shoot for having 9 football playing members and either 10 or 12 hoops members.

It is to the benefit of football to have the 4 home 4 away conference slate with everyone playing everyone else while basketball needs to be a 10 or 12 to avoid anyone having to miss a Saturday home date (usually the best gate) and to avoid there always being someone coming off an open date. Hoop coaches as a rule seem to hate open dates and hate playing teams coming off them.

In football 9 gives everyone an open date and while coaches moan a bit about playing teams coming off open dates they love having them.

[carney2]

In my dream world, I'd like Richmond to start as an affiliate and move to all sports like 10 years later when basketball was further along in our league.

Couldn't Richmond just "opt out" for basketball as Army does for football, Lehigh for wrestling, etc., or is this impossible given their current affiliation?

[Fordham]

I asked this on the Fordham board but didn't get a response. If the PL goes scholarship but caps the number just short of the full complement (e.g. - 60 v. 63), does that provide enough wiggle room for a school from a conference that offers the full complement to join the PL without giving up the rest of their sports' conference membership?

Not saying I would expect this to happen or that it should (a little sneaky imo and would likely inspire a backlash) but just wondering if it would work in theory.

[colgate13]

Couldn't Richmond just "opt out" for basketball as Army does for football, Lehigh for wrestling, etc., or is this impossible given their current affiliation?
Army/Navy play I-A football. No reason to opt out.

Wrestling is not a PL sport, so Lehigh and Bucknell are fine. Same with Colgate and HC ice hockey (ECACHL and AHL).

Basketball IS a PL sport, so all PL members must be in. To get to this point, PL basketball will need to be on par with the A-10. And if you really want to talk about me dreaming: we're on par with the A-10 and both Richmond and Fordham (returning) become full PL members.

[colgate13]

I asked this on the Fordham board but didn't get a response. If the PL goes scholarship but caps the number just short of the full complement (e.g. - 60 v. 63), does that provide enough wiggle room for a school from a conference that offers the full complement to join the PL without giving up the rest of their sports' conference membership?

Not saying I would expect this to happen or that it should (a little sneaky imo and would likely inspire a backlash) but just wondering if it would work in theory.

Don't know, but don't think so. Underfunded conference teams exist already (I think URI is an example).

[LBPop]

Couldn't Richmond just "opt out" for basketball as Army does for football

While I think Richmond would be a terrific "get" for the PL, in speaking with some highly placed alumni, it won't happen anytime soon. Apparently the flirtation with the idea last year got a bunch of Spider contributors really ticked and they used their wallets to make their point to the Administration.

Hopkins would also be a nice addition from the Georgetown perspective, but as has been already written, I would not expect their fan base to support it. They would face a problem similar to the Hoyas. Lacrosse to Hopkins is like Basketball to Georgetown. It trumps everything. Getting Division I football on the map would be a really difficult task.

[henfan]

VMI and Richmond would be nice additions and IMO the most probable.

But UR in FB makes little sense. They have no historic rivals in the PL, and wouldn't save money with a grant arrangement or with travel. Apparently, their alums aren't interested in giving up regional rivalries with W&M and JMU either. With another area school (ODU) coming into the CAA in a few years, a FB move to the PL makes even less sense. That aside, UR is already a CAA affiliate for another sport.

I honestly don't think a PL move is probable unless there are very dramatic changes in the CAA.

VMI and Hopkins make sense.

[Granite]

Good stuff, LFN. One nit-pick - the University of Hartford is also a private school in the America East, so BU isn't the only one. Of course, BU and Hartford are completely different types of institutions (while both private), but that is another story.

It would be interesting to see if BU ever did bring football back, and if they did, it might make more sense for them to throw their lot in with a future America East football conference, since they would have all-sport membership. Its hard to imagine football making a return at BU anytime soon, but who knows?

[Pard94]

there are members of our football teams who are not the brightest bulbs in the lot

As a former football player I feel compelled to object to this statement. While I am sure there are some dim bulbs on the football team, I would wager there are also dim bulbs on the fencing, lacrosse, and soccer team. Regardless of the team, if they are not smart enough to cut it, they lose their eligibility, end up off the team and out of the school. I have seen it happen. While we may not have a large representation living in the McKelvey House, I can state with all honesty that football players are not granted any special favors by the faculty. Far from it. Usually you have to overcome negative perceptions just to get to a level playing field. You try keeping up with the scholastic workload of Lafayette while playing a full time varsity sport like football (lest you were not aware the palyers also must complete Spring drills, Winter Running and a very strict off season regiment...hence full time).

I am sure you didn't mean to offend but take it easy with the broad brush strokes.

[colgate13]

There are also some dim bulbs who aren't sports players too. My freshman roommate was formally designated as one of Colgate's brightest (we have a scholars program that gives no merit $) and he didn't play a sport. I was the football player. He failed out, I graduated.

[Pard4Life]

As a former football player I feel compelled to object to this statement. While I am sure there are some dim bulbs on the football team, I would wager there are also dim bulbs on the fencing, lacrosse, and soccer team. Regardless of the team, if they are not smart enough to cut it, they lose their eligibility, end up off the team and out of the school. I have seen it happen. While we may not have a large representation living in the McKelvey House, I can state with all honesty that football players are not granted any special favors by the faculty. Far from it. Usually you have to overcome negative perceptions just to get to a level playing field. You try keeping up with the scholastic workload of Lafayette while playing a full time varsity sport like football (lest you were not aware the palyers also must complete Spring drills, Winter Running and a very strict off season regiment...hence full time).

I am sure you didn't mean to offend but take it easy with the broad brush strokes.

I am not implicating the whole team. I was thinking number wise, about 10-15 on each team, who are below your average academic profile. It is no secret that admissions standards in the PL are compromised to fill sports teams. I have been in class with some football players and my friends have as well.. some just don't make the academic cut. It is likely true throughout the PL. And yes I do agree a very small handful of dim bulbs are on other sports team.. excpet fencing.. I don't think we actively recruit for that sport.

[Ken_Z]

In my dream world, I'd like Richmond to start as an affiliate and move to all sports like 10 years later when basketball was further along in our league.

it will not take 10 years.

[Pard4Life]

it will not take 10 years.

Maybe from your Bucknell prespective this is a quality league now , but the PL has a lot of work to do. Outside of BU, HC, LU, LC (with schollies), the rest of the league is down.

[arkstfan]

Then there are some considered to be dim bulbs who aren't.

I had a literature class with a couple basketball players. The professor called on one of them to explain the meaning of some reading in your own words. He explained the whole thing in basketball terms and analogy. One side of the room had the preppie dressed twerps giggling over his stupidity. My wife and I gained great enjoyment watching their faces fall as the professor gave him high praise for being on the mark.

But then maybe they weren't hoop fans and didn't understand the explanation.

[Pard4Life]

Then there are some considered to be dim bulbs who aren't.

I had a literature class with a couple basketball players. The professor called on one of them to explain the meaning of some reading in your own words. He explained the whole thing in basketball terms and analogy. One side of the room had the preppie dressed twerps giggling over his stupidity. My wife and I gained great enjoyment watching their faces fall as the professor gave him high praise for being on the mark.

But then maybe they weren't hoop fans and didn't understand the explanation.

I am betting that... or they were morons to begin with.

[Ken_Z]

Maybe from your Bucknell prespective this is a quality league now , but the PL has a lot of work to do. Outside of BU, HC, LU, LC (with schollies), the rest of the league is down.

the PL has much work to do, but it has a level of commitment that did not previously exist and improvement will continue at a very noticable pace. LC adopting basketball scholarships was one critical aspect for basketball. however, there is more to it than that. the new leadership in place at a number of the schools continue to believe in the true student-athlete copcept of the PL, but are much more progressive in their view on the role athletics can play in the total college experience. football scholarships will also be critical for league expansion.

a number of statements have been articulated through various threads about the PL and its characteristics that create a valued market niche.
the tie that binds the A10 schools is that it is the best they can do as they hold on and hope that a Big East meltdown will play out in their schools favor. however, that scenario plays out, over time the appeal of the A10 to a school like Richmond will diminish while at the same time the PL's appeal should increase.

could i be wrong? sure, but i think this vision of the future is more likely than the belief that the current pecking order will be maintained.

[mainejeff]

If Hopkins were to want to move up, PL lacrosse is an attractive place.

I'm guessing that as far as lacrosse in concerned......a probable America East line-up of:

UMass
Hofstra
UMBC
Albany
Stony Brook
Hartford
Vermont

.....would probably be more attractive to them.

[colgate13]

could i be wrong? sure, but i think this vision of the future is more likely than the belief that the current pecking order will be maintained.

Boy, am I glad someone else has taken up the Patriot League For the Future Torch!

KenZ, I admire your enthusiasm!!!! :):rotateh::):rotateh:

[colgate13]

I'm guessing that as far as lacrosse in concerned......a probable America East line-up of:

UMass
Hofstra
UMBC
Albany
Stony Brook
Hartford
Vermont

.....would probably be more attractive to them.

:confused: Why?

Navy
Army
Bucknell
Colgate
Lehigh

That is a SOLID group of lacrosse schools that have just begun to make noise nationally. The PL is a big up and comer in lacrosse. Your group doesn't edge out my group.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I'm guessing that as far as lacrosse in concerned......a probable America East line-up of:

UMass
Hofstra
UMBC
Albany
Stony Brook
Hartford
Vermont

.....would probably be more attractive to them.

Remember, Navy and Princeton are a couple of teams that JHU considers rivals in lacrosse - without becoming an Ivy yourself, you really can't beat the PL there - you'd have Navy as a league game every year, and Princeton as a likely OOC potentially every year.

If they also joined in football, a Princteon/JHU OOC matchup would also be something to look forward to.

[LBPop]

I am sure you didn't mean to offend but take it easy with the broad brush strokes.

And as evidence I'll bet that nobody from those other sports can consistently speak and type in "Chicken". I would credit our Bikini contributing Hen with being bilingual, but I don't know if he can speak/type in "Human". ;)

[mainejeff]

Remember, Navy and Princeton are a couple of teams that JHU considers rivals in lacrosse - without becoming an Ivy yourself, you really can't beat the PL there - you'd have Navy as a league game every year, and Princeton as a likely OOC potentially every year.

If they also joined in football, a Princteon/JHU OOC matchup would also be something to look forward to.

Can't Hopkins play Princeton OOC even if they were in America East?:confused:

[Go...gate]

LFN, a great two-part series. What we have to realize is that though things are quiet now, the geologic plates of college football are realy starting to shake and a lot of things will be very different in the next 5-10 years. I for one would be very pleased to see Hopkins, VMI or BU in the Patriot League. The only way it will ever happen with Villanova is if their trustees and athletic administration turn over a bit. I don't see it with Richmond after last summer's ray of hope, but they would be a very welcome addition to the conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Can't Hopkins play Princeton OOC even if they were in America East?:confused:

What I'm getting at is the Ivy and PL have a "special relationship" where we play OOC more often than other schools in a lot of sports. Yes, Princeton could still be an OOC in America East but you wouldn't have the same Ivy relationship as you would with the PL.

[ngineer]

I interpreted your reference to Citadel as being an opening to potential OOC games with SoCon schools because of their regular series with VMI. I think Citadel would be too far south to easily fit the PL geographic footprint. If the PL were to go that far south, then, I'd consider Wofford as a potential PL school.

[carney2]

What I'm getting at is the Ivy and PL have a "special relationship"

Does this "special relationship" exist for sports other than football? There are certainly inter-league games in other sports, but, for the most part, they seem to be based on convenience (geography) and maybe a little bit of tradition rather than the semi-formal "agreement" that governs football scheduling.

[ngineer]

Does this "special relationship" exist for sports other than football? There are certainly inter-league games in other sports, but, for the most part, they seem to be based on convenience (geography) and maybe a little bit of tradition rather than the semi-formal "agreement" that governs football scheduling.

I've always understood that there has been some kind of 'working relationship' between the Ivy and Patriot since when the PL first started as the Colonial. Nothing 'firm' in a written sense, since not every year is the same. Some teams play2, 3 or 4 Ivies in one season. Some series with same schools, while others are few and far between, i.e. LU seems to play Princeton, Harvard and Yale alot. Occasionally Cornell. Used to be frequent with Penn, until they begged out of a multi-year contract; rarely do we play Dartmouth, Brown, or Columbia. B-Ball usually schedules 2-3 Ivies each year, and I think most other sports do as well. The similarities in the schools academics and proximity certainly have a lot to do with it.

[DFW HOYA]

I've always understood that there has been some kind of 'working relationship' between the Ivy and Patriot since when the PL first started as the Colonial. Nothing 'firm' in a written sense, since not every year is the same. Some teams play2, 3 or 4 Ivies in one season.

I've always suspected this "relationship" was between the teams in the PL when the agreement was done, less so the newcomers. Towson rarely got more than one Ivy a year, and Georgetown got only one (which was a game Towson released when leaving the league) through 2004.

(Three next year, though.)

[Doc QB]

Having played at both Lehigh and Hopkins, I am keenly interested in the writings of LFN. Two very good posts, but as only someone with more inside info into Hopkins athletics can attest, they essentially have NO motivation to elevate in football or all sports.

Two reasons: Lacrosse and money. Various posters on this board feel an America East or Patriot league lax affiliation is a good thing fo JHU. It is actually absurd. Hopkins prided itself on the toughest schedule in the nation, playing the nations elite and filling the grandsstands at home for these contests. The money from conference affiliation is not a big enough carrot considering they always play the best from every conf (UVA, Maryland, Duke, UNC, Navy, Princeton, Georgetown, UMass, Loyola). Since lax rules at JHU, no conference can ever equal such a tight schedule.

Money. Aside from mens lax, and now womens, as the lone division one scholarship sports, the remaining sports (of which there are many) operate on a slim division three style budget. It is actually a miracle than can be as competitive in some sports (football, mens soccer, baseball, field hockey) considering the admissions requirements, relatively little prestige in the academic community at large for coaches and players, and budgets. It mostly comes from coaches who essentially work tireless hours recruiting and having multisport athletes with some hope of financial aid need wanted to suck it up and earn a Hopkins degree. There is little urge to upgrade only football at JHU, and it would impose a huge financial expense on an athletic department that is actually not as rich as the University as a whole. Upgrading everybody would cost WAY to much money...need based scholarship money is not available, nor is it for bgger recruiting budgets, more coaches, etc.

And no offense to G-town, but look at their struggles. Does the Patriot need more of that just to build a bigger conference? This is likely an idea for another thread entirely. Fordham, for that matter, has had good years, but consistency has really lacked since its jump, save the Dave Closson years. It really takes time and a huge commitment. I don't think Hopkins even thinks of it.

They facilities ay Hopkins are excellent because of lacarosse, make no mistake. Could this help in recruiting? It does tremendously as a division three football school, but compared to the Patriot, merely blends in amongst everybody except G'town.

Academics are a great fit, student profiles somewhat similar, but changing conferences and upgrading will not attract students to games, Baltimore sports fans have a hard enough time caring about Towson (as either a Patriot or A-10 team). Those familiar with Hopkins, it is a tremendously diverse student body, and they don't care about sports. It is not them filling the stadium for lax games, either, it is the local HS kids, families, and Hopkins old money alums. Football would just not draw, it is tough enough now, but I must admit some improvemnet has been made. It would just be another road trip playing in a nice stadium with little or no crowd (much like playing at the Ivies that don't draw).

While the focus has been on Hopkins somewhat, there are other Centennial Conf schools that if you take away the Div I sports programs, appear a lot like school like Colgate, Lafayette, and Holy Cross. Dickinson and Gettysburg come to mind as scenic, competitive liberal arts schools that if you parachuted into the main quad on any of them or the aforementioned PL campuses, you'd have the same feeling. Are they really lesser of mention? They are probably a better fit academically, anyway. But, they would each have the same issues gameday...likley low attendance.

My rant complete, I must say I enjoy the writings here, would actually LOVE to see JHU make that jump myself. Lehigh Football Nation, great writing, I enjoy it much as well, and keep your blog alive, my dad and I read it often.

[Ken_Z]

My rant complete, I must say I enjoy the writings here, would actually LOVE to see JHU make that jump myself. Lehigh Football Nation, great writing, I enjoy it much as well, and keep your blog alive, my dad and I read it often.

great rant Doc. while the PL would grab JHU in a heartbeat because of the academics, your statements are 100% in line with how Hopkins reacted to the scholarship exemption issue a year or two ago. other than preserving lax scholys, they have no reason to go D1.

there are some D3s that might consider moving up, but the PL should focus on the issues that will make the league attractive to a school like Richmond. the objective is to strengthen the league, not just increase the number of teams.

[Go...gate]

Good comments about Dickinson and Gettysburg which, IMO, are right on target.

[ngineer]

Maybe JHU would join, EXCEPT Lax--just like Army and Navy EXCEPT for football?
Dickinson and G-burg are certainly excellent academic schools, but Dickinson, especially, is in not position to step up athletically with the PL. That would be down-right ugly. Gettysburg played with us 30 years ago, and even then things were pretty ugly. I don't know if the Bullets are in a position to pony up the $$ needed to play at that level.
I think a resurrected BU or some existing I-AA who wants to make a move is more likely, if an addition is to occur.

[LBPop]

And no offense to G-town, but look at their struggles. Does the Patriot need more of that just to build a bigger conference? This is likely an idea for another thread entirely. Fordham, for that matter, has had good years, but consistency has really lacked since its jump, save the Dave Closson years. It really takes time and a huge commitment. I don't think Hopkins even thinks of it.


I don't think anyone at Georgetown would be offended--you are dead on. In my two year exposure to Georgetown athletics (and as a native DC area resident), it's readily apparent that football at Georgetown and Hopkins suffer from the same obstacle. There is a single sport that is King and no other sport will ever come close in the hearts, minds or wallets of the students and Alums. The one difference that works for the Hoyas is that their big sport generates lots of dollars...especially now that the NCAA tournament appearances and TV appearances are back to Thompson II levels. I don't know how it works, but I'm hoping that there is some form of trickle down to other sports.

With respect to the attitude of the students and alumni, your description of Hopkins would fit at Georgetown as well. Georgetown had to move up to I-AA at the mid-major level before it took a shot at the Patriot League and they are still struggling to get attention. For Hopkins to make the jump all the way from DIII to the Patriot League would likely be a disaster.

Now, having written all that, I would personally love to see it happen. The schools would be natural rivals on so many levels--but like yourself, I see no chance.

[ngineer]

I don't think anyone at Georgetown would be offended--you are dead on. In my two year exposure to Georgetown athletics (and as a native DC area resident), it's readily apparent that football at Georgetown and Hopkins suffer from the same obstacle. There is a single sport that is King and no other sport will ever come close in the hearts, minds or wallets of the students and Alums. The one difference that works for the Hoyas is that their big sport generates lots of dollars...especially now that the NCAA tournament appearances and TV appearances are back to Thompson II levels. I don't know how it works, but I'm hoping that there is some form of trickle down to other sports.

With respect to the attitude of the students and alumni, your description of Hopkins would fit at Georgetown as well. Georgetown had to move up to I-AA at the mid-major level before it took a shot at the Patriot League and they are still struggling to get attention. For Hopkins to make the jump all the way from DIII to the Patriot League would likely be a disaster.

Now, having written all that, I would personally love to see it happen. The schools would be natural rivals on so many levels--but like yourself, I see no chance.

I agree. The immediate jump to I-AA from III would have to be tough. And if tough for Hopkins, I can't imagine lesser athletic schools like Dickinson or Gettysburg making the transition with less bumps in the road. It would be good to get the Hoyas a 'kissing cousin' down there to create a little geographical rivalry...xsmoochx :D

[blukeys]

Maybe JHU would join, EXCEPT Lax--just like Army and Navy EXCEPT for football?
Dickinson and G-burg are certainly excellent academic schools, but Dickinson, especially, is in not position to step up athletically with the PL. That would be down-right ugly. Gettysburg played with us 30 years ago, and even then things were pretty ugly. I don't know if the Bullets are in a position to pony up the $$ needed to play at that level.
I think a resurrected BU or some existing I-AA who wants to make a move is more likely, if an addition is to occur.


I too remember MAC Gettysburg games and they were VERY UGLY!!!

[ngineer]

I too remember MAC Gettysburg games and they were VERY UGLY!!!

Yes, G-burg was homecoming for us a few times in the 70's. A buddy of mine who played with me still holds Lehigh's 'longest punt' record from 1971--88 yards at Taylor Stadium. Oh, yes, and the score was 50-0. Last game against Gettysburg was in 1977 and a 47-0 win. The last three years of that series were: 56-22 (1975), 56-15 (1976) and 47-0.