VMI and the Patriot League - a look at VMI's future institutional plans

[Go...gate]

Another thread on the board today speculates on the possible departure of Coastal Carolina from the Big South and where it might end up. As CCU's move would shake up the Big South, VMI"s future all-sports affiliation is worth examining.

VMI has outlined its institutional future (link attached) on its website.

It is also worth considering that VMI, a "state" military school, has good relationships with USMA and USNA and would extend the PL's footprint southward.

Thoughts? xreadxxsalutex

http://www.vmi.edu/content.aspx?id=520

[ngineer]

It has been reported in the past that VMI has expressed interest in the PL, but that the PL has either been "lukewarm" or non-receptive to the overtures. Now, with scholarhships entering the picture, perhaps there may be increased interest. Not sure how the academic profile of VMI fits within the PL framework.

[UAalum72]

If VMI and CCU both leave, does the Big South have another team handy so they can keep their autobid? Would the BSoC have any options to make it easier for them to stay?

[citdog]

that bunch of schmeckle nuzzlin' cockfags should go and join anne frank.





http://static.hypervocal.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Anne-Frank-in-Hell-400x290.jpg

[Go...gate]

VMI's long-term institutional plans, much as those of American, point to a higher academic profile with fewer majors and a slightly increased enrollment. That would seem compatible with the Patriot League's AI.

VMI's overall size is also compatible with the majority of schools in the conference.

[citdog]

VMI's overall size is also compatible with the majority of schools in the conference.



just come out and say what we're all thinking.....











VMI SUCKS

[Bogus Megapardus]

Zero chance of VMI to the Patriot League. To distant for HC and Colgate. Too few women's sports.

[DFW HOYA]

Really? I think if some of those Colgate and HC fans had its way, the PL would never have gone south of I-78.

[Go...gate]

Really? I think if some of those Colgate and HC fans had its way, the PL would never have gone south of I-78.

Not this Colgate fan and probably not most Colgate fans. Back in the 1970's and 1980's, Colgate FB made a southern trip periodically. We played The Citadel, W & M, VMI, Richmond and Duke. We were also scheduled to play Vanderbilt but the game was cancelled by when the PL was formed.

IMO would also like to play a southern school along the same lines. Why not VMI?

It ain't gonna be Richmond, Villanova or W & M.

[kdinva]

Zero chance of VMI to the Patriot League. To distant for HC and Colgate. Too few women's sports.

xthumbsupx

and like posted elsewhere, only a couple of Patroit schools would consider vmi anyway........

[kdinva]

just come out and say what we're all thinking.....

VMI SUCKS

good to hear from you! How's Chucky's 2nd hoops season going? 4 D-1 wins? In Duggar Baucom's 2nd season, VMI made the Big South tourney final game........and I'll admit our wrestling program has hit bottom......

[van]

Really? I think if some of those Colgate and HC fans had its way, the PL would never have gone south of I-78.

Hmmm, Goodman is south of I 78, didn't realize that Gate and Crossers did not like playing us.

[DFW HOYA]

Taylor Stadium was north of I-78 when it all started. Which got me thinking--if Lehigh had to do it all over again, would the Engineers have renovated Taylor Stadium (as Lafayette did with Fisher) or still moved down the hill? (And to its credit, VMI has stayed with Alumni Memorial Field and made it a much better place in recent seasons.)

The PL has five good stadia and two that don't even make the list.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Taylor Stadium was north of I-78 when it all started.

Taylor was never north of I-78. I-78 didn't exist between Allentown and Phillipsburg when Taylor was in use.

Nevertheless, based on DFW's criterion, I now consider Lehigh to be a "southern school."

[RichH2]

Taylor was never north of I-78. I-78 didn't exist between Allentown and Phillipsburg when Taylor was in use.

Ah, the good old days of Rte 22. Scenic but Lord I hated that drive

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Taylor Stadium was north of I-78 when it all started. Which got me thinking--if Lehigh had to do it all over again, would the Engineers have renovated Taylor Stadium (as Lafayette did with Fisher) or still moved down the hill? (And to its credit, VMI has stayed with Alumni Memorial Field and made it a much better place in recent seasons.)

The PL has five good stadia and two that don't even make the list.

I don't think there's any question that they had to build a new stadium over the hill. The business school needed the area to house their building. And Taylor was very old, too.

I did used to play pickup football games with friends on the old field after Murray Goodman Stadium was built and before Taylor was completely torn down. I remember seeing the torn-up stands as we played. The previous year, the fans tore up the old stands for "souvenirs", and the University, too, saved blocks of the old stadium and sold them in the bookstore as mementos.

The new stadium over the hill has honestly allowed Lehigh, too, to do things like host the Eagles for training camp during the summer, but it's also allowed the athletic buildings loads of room for stuff like weight training, a lighted lacrosse field, a baseball/softball diamond, etc. Not to mention Stabler, which can host concerts, events, and also is now a home for Arena football, too. Lafayette was able to make the Kirby Field House on campus to expand some of their athletics ambitions, but Lehigh didn't have that option.

Lehigh's sports complex is not a cinch to get to, but I think when all is said and done the benefits way outweigh the costs.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Taylor was never north of I-78. I-78 didn't exist between Allentown and Phillipsburg when Taylor was in use.

Nevertheless, based on DFW's criterion, I now consider Lehigh to be a "southern school."

When they finished the extension of I-78, I cheered. No longer would I have to suffer the dinge of Phillipsburg and the scent from Easton.

[RichH2]

Will not begrudge the benefits, which are many , but a stadium somplace on the other side of South Mt would be nice. Goodman beautiful but a pain in the neck to get to. Heck tear down the Casino and put it on the river.

[carney2]

If VMI and CCU both leave, does the Big South have another team handy so they can keep their autobid? Would the BSoC have any options to make it easier for them to stay?

The Big South appears to be a conference in jeopardy: CCU is leaving; Liberty, Stony Brook and, yes, VMI all seem to wish they were elsewhere. VMI would, of course love to be running cross country, playing tennis, and swimming against the USMA and USNA. It would assuage their inferiority complex and create instant one sided rivalries. As others have questioned however, would their love be requited? Are they an academic and an athletic match? I have no idea, but the Patriot League has suddenly emerged into a brave new world and dismissing anything out of hand, taking anything off the table at this point, is premature to say the least. If, for instance, state schools such as New Hampshire and Maine end up in this thought process as many of us imagine, then the Patriot League is headed in new directions and nothing is impossible.

[DFW HOYA]

Be thankful Lehigh has options. If your school's only options are an unfinished lot in a construction zone, or playing on the roof of the rec center, it changes the fan perspective about football in a big way.

As to VMI...


Are they an academic and an athletic match? I have no idea, but the Patriot League has suddenly emerged into a brave new world and dismissing anything out of hand, taking anything off the table at this point, is premature to say the least.

Remember, VMI is not for everyone and this probably affects the board scores, which are probably comparable to Towson and UNH, and ahead of Maine:

Middle 50% of First-Year Students
SAT Critical Reading: 510 - 620
SAT Math: 530 - 610
SAT Writing: 480 - 580
ACT Composite: 22 - 27

[RichH2]

The Big South appears to be a conference in jeopardy: CCU is leaving; Liberty, Stony Brook and, yes, VMI all seem to wish they were elsewhere. VMI would, of course love to be running cross country, playing tennis, and swimming against the USMA and USNA. It would assuage their inferiority complex. As others have questioned however, would their love be requited? Are they an academic and an athletic match? I have no idea, but the Patriot League has suddenly emerged into a brave new world and dismissing anything out of hand, taking anything off the table at this point, is premature to say the least. If, for instance, state schools such as New Hampshire and Maine end up in this thought process as many of us imagine, then the Patriot League is headed in new directions and nothing is impossible.

Wow, Brave New World rhetoric from the Curmudgeon. Agree tho, that everything s/b considered , which to me is waiting to see how lanscape changes over next 2 years. Big South like a commuter school, no one plans on living there.

[Pard4Life]

I really doubt UNH and Maine join the PL, solely because of the academic index. And there is no history with these schools. Towson was an anomaly, but remember they were affiliated with LC, LU, and BU via the old ECC.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

To think, I sometimes worry that I might run out of PL subjects to blog about. Yes, my digression aside, VMI is still an intriguing prospect for PL all-sports admission.

This is by no means a comprehensive list, but:

Pros: a pretty compelling member to keep Georgetown in the fold. A guaranteed trip to DC/Virginia every year in football.

Cons: another flight for Holy Cross.

[RichH2]

Let's cut to the chase. What is there academic profile NOW? Nice that school is planning to improve it , but that intention alone not near enough to get them in.

Note Forbes did rate VMI substantially higher than either UR or JMU

[Pard4Life]

I still maintain Fairfield would be a strong candidate minus football. Jesuit for Holy Cross and 2 hours away.

[RichH2]

How does Fairfield compare to Fordham?

[TheValleyRaider]

Hmmm, Goodman is south of I 78, didn't realize that Gate and Crossers did not like playing us.

We have no problem going south of I-78, we just wish the rest of you would all stop complaining about getting to visit scenic Hamilton every other year ;) :p

[RichH2]

We have no problem going south of I-78, we just wish the rest of you would all stop complaining about getting to visit scenic Hamilton every other year ;) :p

Make it a domed stadium and we'll stop b*tching

[van]

We have no problem going south of I-78, we just wish the rest of you would all stop complaining about getting to visit scenic Hamilton every other year ;) :p

There's a wish that will never be fulfilled! xnodx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Patience, everyone. We have scholarships. If we build it, they will come - it's our job to take advantage of the situation start winning, and become a top-drawer FCS football league. We then won't have to worry about "finding" a new member or two. They'll find us, giving the rapidly-deteriorating status of more than a couple conferences. The PL has to become a "step up" and I think that can happen.

Besides, I can't imagine there's a concern about losing members right now. Fordham obviously is staying and Georgetown looks as if it's going to have a go at it. It G'Town keeps playing as it has been, why leave? Besides, I haven't seen anything yet that would indicate that Big Ivy is scrambling to drop all of its traditional, century old PL rivalries in order to schedule the Hoyas for all OOC contests.

When it comes down to it, there are only three schools that we want. We all know which ones they are - but they (and their alums) have to want to come to us. Sit tight, improve our game, become competitive, and they will.

[carney2]

We have no problem going south of I-78, we just wish the rest of you would all stop complaining about getting to visit scenic Hamilton every other year ;) :p

Not a problem. I shall continue to live by the Code of the carney: Thou shalt not travel to Hamilton, NY in November.

[Ivytalk]

Not a problem. I shall continue to live by the Code of the carney: Thou shalt not travel to Hamilton, NY in November.

That's good advice!xlolx

[Bill]

How does Fairfield compare to Fordham?

Not well.
Fordham
Percent of Applicants Admitted: 42%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 570 / 670
SAT Math: 580 / 670
SAT Writing: 570 / 680
Fairfield:
Percent of Applicants Admitted: 65%
Test Scores -- 25th / 75th Percentile

SAT Critical Reading: 520 / 610
SAT Math: 530 / 630
SAT Writing: 530 / 630

I think this is a major academic stretch - and we still haven't mentioned the football issue.

[citdog]

good to hear from you! How's Chucky's 2nd hoops season going? 4 D-1 wins? In Duggar Baucom's 2nd season, VMI made the Big South tourney final game........and I'll admit our wrestling program has hit bottom......


Chucky is pat dennis all over again. sparky probably hates us worse than ever!



41-14





http://wciv.images.worldnow.com/images/16654483_SS.jpg

[DFW HOYA]

I think this is a major academic stretch - and we still haven't mentioned the football issue.

Realistically, if the PL wants to expand--football or otherwise-- it's probably going to have to take a school or schools below its current profile.

Waiting for W&M or Villanova to suddenly come knocking at the door because it's a "better fit" is like expecting St. John's and Providence to join the A-10 in basketball. It's not (yet) a lateral move between the CAA and PL.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's not a lateral move between the CAA and PL.

And it won't be for five years, give or take. We ought to wait it out and see what happens. The league decided to go with merit aid rather than expanding with non-scholarship candidates. Now we have to establish what we look like as a full scholarship league. No one knows.

What would happen if everyone in the league stepped up and performed at the level that Lehigh did last season? Would we be "good enough" then for some folks to take notice? What if the top four Patriot teams performed on par with Maine, UNH, Delaware and Villanova for a few years? Good enough then?

[Bill]

Bogus and DFW

I agree on both counts - just trying to offer some info. "Wait and see" will be the order of the day, I believe!

[Sader87]

No one in the CAA currently is that good...Lehigh beat their best this past year. Holy Cross and Colgate were better than all of them when they last truly cared about football in the 1970's and 1980's.

It's a solid league but it's falling apart before our eyes.... Villanova will be in the PL for football within three years.

[van]

No one in the CAA currently is that good...Lehigh beat their best this past year. Holy Cross and Colgate were better than all of them when they last truly cared about football in the 1970's and 1980's.

It's a solid league but it's falling apart before our eyes.... Villanova will be in the PL for football within three years.

Wow, that's enought optomism to offset even DFW. Hope you are right Sader, Nova is my #1 choice.

[TheValleyRaider]

Optimism about the PL from Sader87? What a strange new world we live in... xchinscratchx

[RichH2]

I think Nova is the #1 choice for most of us. Agree with Bogie, wait. Give CAA time to shake out and us time to improve.

[carney2]

Villanova will be in the PL for football within three years.

Over Andy Talley's dead body. But wait, Andy will be 69 years old in about a month.

And, if Delaware goes FBS as many aqua fowl drum beaters desire, the Mildcats will have one less reason to stay where they are.

[RichH2]

Would be surprised if UD went FBS. Agree tho , if they do,Nova more likely to move but PL not a destination until it becomes a lateral not a downward move. Just remember reaction of UR alumni when UR looking to join

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Scholarships will not magically make Villanova join the PL. But scholarships at least, now, make it a potential Villanova FCS destination should the Northeast wing of the CAA collapse - or something else happens.

Villanova has been the epicenter of the fascinating subplot that has emerged in terms of the Big East: if Temple's "talks" to become part of the Big East football come to fruition, what does that mean for the Wildcats? Last year, Villanova was seriously talking about playing FBS football in PPL Park and playing UConn and Syracuse on a regular basis in football. Now, they might be looking at a Big East competitor in their own neighborhood in all sports, something the Wildcat faithful have to have been dreading for the last fifty years, AFTER their plans to become an FBS program were unceremoniously thrown in the garbage can by the other Big East athletic departments.

I don't know what Villanova's future plans are, but I do know that the PL has gone from the unconsiderable to a consideration. Which is a good thing.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just remember reaction of UR alumni when UR looking to join

Again, I'd have reacted the same way were I a UR alum at the time. Patriot now has to play up to its potential so that it becomes the logical resting place for any or all of the the three school if/when the CAA crumbles. We all know who the three are, and there really are no other choices. But the students, alums and institutions have to reach a consensus on the new and improved PL. I don't want to see anyone come in kicking and screaming, and I don't want to be anyone's lack-of-a-better-choice option. I want to be the first and logical choice.

This means we have to get better. It means playing competitively against choice, "traditional" FBS schools (we will have zero difficulty scheduling the ones we want - they're already coming to us), beating the top Ivies (H-Y-P-P) 50-60% of the time, and scheduling the remaining OOC against solid teams from the CAA, MVC and SoCon - and winning them.

[RichH2]

Rumors abound but that FBS teams coming in for 2014 and on is true. LU,FU, Gate will be counters rest should be up to status by 2015

[Bogus Megapardus]

Question to VMI and/or aficionados of southern heritage: Might there be something in the charter of the Virginia Military Institute that would forbid an allegiance with certain Institutions of Northern Aggression? I'm serious about this. To be quite honest, the more I look at VMI, its history and its alumni roster, the more it starts to look like a Patriot League school.

So I'd add, to the "consensus three" schools that fit perfectly in the PL, two others that might to so with adaptation. Davidson, which actually was a PL member for about fifteen minutes in the 1980s, and VMI. Davidson would have to ramp up to scholarship football and become an all-sports member. VMI would have to find a way to expand women's sports because they're quite important at PL schools. Plus the two federal Academies both would have to welcome VMI wholeheartedly. I have no idea about the existing relationship, if any, between the Academies and VMI. And I'm not inclined to suggest anything that might annoy the Academies (at least until baseball and lacrosse season is over).

[Bogus Megapardus]

Rumors abound but that FBS teams coming in for 2014 and on is true. LU,FU, Gate will be counters rest should be up to status by 2015


Pretty sure that Lafayette's first FBS game will be Rutgers. Tavani keeps hinting it, we know for a fact that Rutgers keeps asking us, and no one's denying it. We've played them 72 times since 1882. We were in the same conference as Rutgers longer than we've been in the PL. It's about time we have at it again.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't know what Villanova's future plans are, but I do know that the PL has gone from the unconsiderable to a consideration. Which is a good thing.

I want them to have to come begging.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

We all know who the three are, and there really are no other choices...

Of course - Delaware, James Madison, and Georgia State! :D

[Bogus Megapardus]

Of course - Delaware, James Madison, and Georgia State! :D

You have to be kidding me. No Charlotte? Outrageous. But Georgia State is a no-brainier. Literally, I think. They're better than Harvard. And that stadium at JMU certainly is . . . ummm . . . taller.

[henfan]

No one in the CAA currently is that good...Lehigh beat their best this past year. Holy Cross and Colgate were better than all of them when they last truly cared about football in the 1970's and 1980's.

It's a solid league but it's falling apart before our eyes.... Villanova will be in the PL for football within three years.

I'm not sure how the conference is falling apart. With JMU, UR, W&M, UD, UNH & UMaine and up-and-comers TU and ODU, the conference is going to be very strong again next season. I'd expect the league to be stronger than it was last season.

There's no evidence that VU has any institutional desire to continue playing FB at the FCS level outside of the CAA. In my unlearned opinion, they would just assume cancel their program before that happened but, more importantly, there's little reason for them to want to leave the CAA so long as they remain FCS. There's simply no additional savings to be had competing in the PL. I suppose PL fans can keep dreaming, however.xthumbsupx

[RichH2]

Pretty sure that Lafayette's first FBS game will be Rutgers. Tavani keeps hinting it, we know for a fact that Rutgers keeps asking us, and no one's denying it. We've played them 72 times since 1882. We were in the same conference as Rutgers longer than we've been in the PL. It's about time we have at it again.

For us looks like Rutgrers also and Army . Maryland also which surprises me

[RichH2]

I'm not sure how the conference is falling apart. With JMU, UR, W&M, UD, UNH & UMaine and up-and-comers TU and ODU, the conference is going to be very strong again next season. I'd expect the league to be stronger than it was last season.

There's no evidence that VU has any institutional desire to continue playing FB at the FCS level outside of the CAA. In my unlearned opinion, they would just assume cancel their program before that happened but, more importantly, there's little reason for them to want to leave the CAA so long as they remain FCS. There's simply no additional savings to be had competing in the PL. I suppose PL fans can keep dreaming, however.xthumbsupx

OH, you're not playing fair at all interjecting reality into this thread.xnonox

[henfan]

..I don't want to be anyone's lack-of-a-better-choice option.

You mean like Georgetown, Fordham and (formerly) Towson?

Come on. It's going to take a competitive paradigm shift before most schools would consider the PL the best option, though I would strongly agree that the league is finally moving in the right direction with athletically related aid for FB. Still, the PL is competitively a ways off top to bottom from the CAA, Southern, Big Sky and Mo Valley.

[Bogus Megapardus]

It's going to take a competitive paradigm shift before most schools would consider the PL the best option, though I would strongly agree that the league is finally moving in the right direction with athletically related aid for FB. Still, the PL is competitively a ways off top to bottom from the CAA, Southern, Big Sky and Mo Valley.

I agree 100%.

But I won't agree that CAA members would just as soon drop football completely if pressed (by whatever circumstance) to play in a conference other than the existing CAA. It's a special conference for certain, but I'm not sure that it's all that special.

By comparison, it's fair to say that Lafayette and Lehigh are very strongly defined by the Patriot League. But I think they'd manage somehow to keep football going were the league to split or dissolve.

[ngineer]

Chucky is pat dennis all over again. sparky probably hates us worse than ever!



41-14





http://wciv.images.worldnow.com/images/16654483_SS.jpg

Still with warm memories of Lehigh!

[TheValleyRaider]

Rumors abound but that FBS teams coming in for 2014 and on is true. LU,FU, Gate will be counters rest should be up to status by 2015

We've already scheduled games with Air Force (2013) and Ball State (2014), with Syracuse in 2010. We've been doing okay with this, but I see no reason PL schools shouldn't look to expand their targets

We don't need to start regularly travelling to SEC games, but we can't all play Army and Rutgers every year ;)

[Bogus Megapardus]

We don't need to start regularly traveling to SEC games, but we can't all play Army and Rutgers every year ;)

But just look at who we CAN play, without flying -

Syracuse
Buffalo
UConn
Temple
Rutgers
Army
Boston College
Penn State
Navy
Pitt
Maryland

That's not too shabby.

[kdinva]

VMI would have to find a way to expand women's sports because they're quite important at PL schools. ......

VMI just added water polo as women's sport #7.........that's all they can do now with only about 200-210 women in the Corps. Forget about lacrosse, volleyball, tennis for this decade at least......

[kdinva]

Chucky is pat dennis all over again. sparky probably hates us worse than ever!


that was a whuppin we got from y'all last Fall........one bright spot, we'll have a new punter in 2012......ElCid won't be given 25 yard fields to work with this time around.............

[henfan]

But I won't agree that CAA members would just as soon drop football completely if pressed (by whatever circumstance) to play in a conference other than the existing CAA.

You're right; I can't imagine most would view that as a reasonable option. BU, HU & NU did, however, and I think it yet remains to be seen what will happen with Rhody. I just don't see any evidence of support for FCS FB at Villanova outside of the CAA (and, really, little support for CAA FB!), especially in a conference that they would perceive as 'competitively beneath them' and in light of the manner in which the school has traditionally cried poor about FCS FB finances.

[van]

You're right; I can't imagine most would view that as a reasonable option. BU, HU & NU did, however, and I think it yet remains to be seen what will happen with Rhody. I just don't see any evidence of support for FCS FB at Villanova outside of the CAA (and, really, little support for CAA FB!), especially in a conference that they would perceive as 'competitively beneath them' and in light of the manner in which the school has traditionally cried poor about FCS FB finances.

I think the point is, in a few years PL should be competitive with MS, these two items would no longer be the source of "sorry, not interested." Now if there is no notable improvement in competitiveness, then all is moot.

[Bogus Megapardus]

a conference that they would perceive as 'competitively beneath them'

That's the crux of the issue - if it comes to the point that the Patriot no longer is "competitively beneath" the CAA, does the Patriot still remain an unfathomably abhorrent alternative? Is there something so indigenously repulsive about the PL that no one would want to join, regardless of its level of competition?

Although it would never happen, what would be Villanova's response were it invited to "step down" to the competition level of the Ivy League? Same thing?

[Bogus Megapardus]

VMI just added water polo as women's sport #7.........that's all they can do now with only about 200-210 women in the Corps. Forget about lacrosse, volleyball, tennis for this decade at least......

No softball, lacrosse, rowing, field hockey, fencing, volleyball . . . or even women's basketball. That's tough. Still, I would welcome VMI into the Patriot it it was willing to have a go at it. Regular games in all sports against the Academies surely would please VMI alums. I'm not so sure its alums would want to commit to "go north" in such a dramatic fashion, however.

[Engineer86]

You're right; I can't imagine most would view that as a reasonable option. BU, HU & NU did, however, and I think it yet remains to be seen what will happen with Rhody. I just don't see any evidence of support for FCS FB at Villanova outside of the CAA (and, really, little support for CAA FB!), especially in a conference that they would perceive as 'competitively beneath them' and in light of the manner in which the school has traditionally cried poor about FCS FB finances.

All of those examples are pre-scholarships. As many have said, let's see where things stand in a few years. You are giving no credit to the Patriot League as a group of academic institutions, which VU, UR, and WM all fit. Now that the league has stepped up, it is my opinion that the thought that those schools would drop FB before joining the Patriot League is off base.

One thing that also probably has to play out is the Big USA (formally Big East) football league melts down and then see the next round of league movement and what impact it has on league movement.

[henfan]

All of those examples are pre-scholarships. As many have said, let's see where things stand in a few years. You are giving no credit to the Patriot League as a group of academic institutions, which VU, UR, and WM all fit. Now that the league has stepped up, it is my opinion that the thought that those schools would drop FB before joining the Patriot League is off base.

You've overstated your position.

First off, I have never underestimated the appeal or value of the PL's emphasis on academics, especially to academicians. The issue is that academicians often do not have complete autonomy over athletics at most D-I schools. FCS schools aren't putting fannies in the seats & paying down FB debits on the basis of their academic integrity.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the general perception outside of the PL bubble is that it's FB programs are not a viable competitive option right now. Time will tell if a limited number of athletically related equivalencies will propel the PL to the top of the FCS. If the league demonstrates that it is able to compete well with traditionally powerful FCS conferences by winning a several national championships and putting multiple teams in the field of 20/24 on a regular basis, perhaps it will eventually overcome the perception, whether fair or not.

Frankly, for a school like Villanova, who is used to competing in the Big East, I just don't see the PL ever being an option for their FB program regardless of how well the PL does on a national level. They already hold their noses to play in a league with mid-major schools like UD, JMU, TU & UNH. To many at VU, the FCS will never be good enough for them. Ask any Wildcat Club member how they feel about the prospect of their FB team competing in the PL versus cancelling FB altogether.

Secondly, I never suggested that UR or W&M would prefer to drop FB rather than moving to the PL. So long as the CAA is a viable all sport option for W&M with tradition rivals, I just don't see how the PL will ever be a remote consideration. (W&M fans, feel free to chime in here.) UR values FB and has several historic & growing geographic rivals in the CAA that the PL cannot match. Perhaps if the CAA dramatically changed, the PL could be an option for these schools. That seems like the only way the PL enters the picture for these two schools, regardless of how much PL competitiveness improves.

Finally, while not the PL, CAA FB schools are hardly chopped liver where academics are concerned. UNH, UMaine, UD, W&M, UR, VU, TU, JMU, etc. all perform well.

[Go...gate]

Pretty sure that Lafayette's first FBS game will be Rutgers. Tavani keeps hinting it, we know for a fact that Rutgers keeps asking us, and no one's denying it. We've played them 72 times since 1882. We were in the same conference as Rutgers longer than we've been in the PL. It's about time we have at it again.

Which has a longer series with RU - LU or LC?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Which has a longer series with RU - LU or LC?

They're almost identical. Which makes sense given the history of the "Middle Three." All the more reason to revive the competition amongst us.

Rutgers vs. Lehigh - 43-30-1 (1884)

Rutgers vs. Lafayette - 41-30-1 (1882)

[Go...gate]

You've overstated your position.

First off, I have never underestimated the appeal or value of the PL's emphasis on academics, especially to academicians. The issue is that academicians often do not have complete autonomy over athletics at most D-I schools. FCS schools aren't putting fannies in the seats & paying down FB debits on the basis of their academic integrity.

Whether you want to believe it or not, the general perception outside of the PL bubble is that it's FB programs are not a viable competitive option right now. Time will tell if a limited number of athletically related equivalencies will propel the PL to the top of the FCS. If the league demonstrates that it is able to compete well with traditionally powerful FCS conferences by winning a several national championships and putting multiple teams in the field of 20/24 on a regular basis, perhaps it will eventually overcome the perception, whether fair or not.

Frankly, for a school like Villanova, who is used to competing in the Big East, I just don't see the PL ever being an option for their FB program regardless of how well the PL does on a national level. They already hold their noses to play in a league with mid-major schools like UD, JMU, TU & UNH. To many at VU, the FCS will never be good enough for them. Ask any Wildcat Club member how they feel about the prospect of their FB team competing in the PL versus cancelling FB altogether.

Secondly, I never suggested that UR or W&M would prefer to drop FB rather than moving to the PL. So long as the CAA is a viable all sport option for W&M with tradition rivals, I just don't see how the PL will ever be a remote consideration. (W&M fans, feel free to chime in here.) UR values FB and has several historic & growing georgraphic rivals in the CAA that the PL cannot match. Perhaps if the CAA dramatically changed, the PL could be an option for these schools. Right now, that seems like a huge stretch, regardless of how well the PL FB does.

I am in agreement with this statement, and not just because of Andy Talley's dislike of our conference. I don't know anyone in Villanova's administration, but I know quite a few alumni, and they often repeat this refrain. I think it will be a cold day in Hell when Villanova joins our conference.

[Go...gate]

They're almost identical. Which makes sense given the history of the "Middle Three." All the more reason to revive the competition amongst us.

Rutgers vs. Lehigh - 43-30-1 (1884)

Rutgers vs. Lafayette - 41-30-1 (1882)

Two ancient and distinguished series between three fine schools. That is what it is all about.

[ngineer]

Two ancient and distinguished series between three fine schools. That is what it is all about.

The last ten games played between Lehigh and Rutgers, which ended in 1977, were split 5 wins apiece. Definitely a series that should be resurrected.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Time will tell if a limited number of athletically related equivalencies will propel the PL to the top of the FCS...

Lehigh 40, Towson 38
Lehigh 14, UNI 7

You were saying something?


If the league demonstrates that it is able to compete well with traditionally powerful FCS conferences by winning a several national championships and putting multiple teams in the field of 20/24 on a regular basis, perhaps it will eventually overcome the perception, whether fair or not.

I'm sure the Southland, OVC, and Missouri Valley have a "perception" to overcome as well, then? xrolleyesx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I am in agreement with this statement, and not just because of Andy Talley's dislike of our conference. I don't know anyone in Villanova's administration, but I know quite a few alumni, and they often repeat this refrain. I think it will be a cold day in Hell when Villanova joins our conference.

I think everyone is missing the point. Things are happening in the Big East that threaten their very existence in that conference. If they leave the conference - or get evicted - or the conference splits, with Nova on the FBS football-less side of the fence - everything changes.

[Bill]

I am in agreement with this statement, and not just because of Andy Talley's dislike of our conference. I don't know anyone in Villanova's administration, but I know quite a few alumni, and they often repeat this refrain. I think it will be a cold day in Hell when Villanova joins our conference.

That statement made me smile. I'm thinking of all the older Villanova alumni who were thrilled just to get any level of football back after dropping the sport in 1981!

[henfan]

That statement made me smile. I'm thinking of all the older Villanova alumni who were thrilled just to get any level of football back after dropping the sport in 1981!

Yeah, all the while, many of those same people have had their eyes on what they believe is VU's rightful position in 'major college' football. I've not seen VU fans demonstrate a particular infatuation with I-AA/FCS FB. It's always just been a means to an end for VU.

As an illustrative example, I know of one guy in particular who is a former VU & NFL player, was heavily involved in the return of FB at VU in the mid-'80's and remains a big supporter of VU FB reclassification. The perception isn't that the PL or CAA are last resorts; the FCS classification is. It's their purgatory, as Tony Moss so aptly described it.

[carney2]

Aren't we just full of ourselves?! Get a football scholarship or two and suddenly we're kings of the world. Addressing some of the total nonsense that I've been reading in this thread:

Scholarships are not - repeat, NOT - going to make the Patriot League competitive with the CAA and SoCon. The AI will see to that. The League may get a little better and may have some success in OOC games, but going toe to toe anuually with Delaware, JMU , App State and GSU? What are you smoking?

Villanova, Richmond and William & Mary are not moving to the Patriot League - not in my lifetime, at least. Pull your heads out and take a long, clear look at reality. If your argument depends on the Patriot League achieving competitive parity, take a look at point one above. Ain't gonna happen.

Rutgers vs. Lehigh or Rutgers vs. Lafayette is a game that just "needs to happen." Why? The build up to the first one may be a thrill for some of you, but after a few 60-6 bashings, I'm betting you'll be pretty tired of it. These games are money makers, not athletic competitions. So shall it ever be.

Some of you people are downright delusional and need to smack yourselves a few times.

[RichH2]

Think you're understating the impact of athletic aid Carney. While lots of dreams of $$$ games, very few of us believe merit aid will give the PL superpowers. Unlikely , even when we get to full scholarship, that all PL teams could compete successfully on a week to week basis in CAA. The top teams will however be as good as the top of CAA. We already are. Merit aid should give each of us 2-3 more top players each year. Not enuf to give us the depth of CAA or SoCon squads but certainly enuf to beat them on one off games. The caveat, of course, is that comparatively few of the FCS schools giving merit aid are actually successful on a year to year basis. Just look back at the Top 20 lists for the last 5 years. A majority of the same teams year after year.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Villanova, Richmond and William & Mary are not moving to the Patriot League - not in my lifetime, at least. Pull your heads out and take a long, clear look at reality. If your argument depends on the Patriot League achieving competitive parity, take a look at point one above. Ain't gonna happen.

Again, you're missing the point. Richmond, W&M, and Villanova are not going to beat a path to the ABE area to actively leave the CAA to join our league. But other factors could certainly change things to make a brand-new reality that just two years ago seemed inconceivable.

W&M is not going to leave the CAA, period. They're not going to leave a conference with bus games to JMU, ODU and VCU to play teams from Easton, Bethlehem and Worcester.

But any team that is a part of the Big East or A-10, that's a different situation. The Big East might not exist next year in its current form - and that will affect the A-10 one way or another.

The PL is well poised to capitalize on conference uncertainty now when they weren't before. Before, thoughts of going to the PL was a laugh. But for some schools, the PL is now an option. That's different from saying that W&M is going to pull up its stakes and join the PL because we're so great.

[Tribe4SF]

Secondly, I never suggested that UR or W&M would prefer to drop FB rather than moving to the PL. So long as the CAA is a viable all sport option for W&M with tradition rivals, I just don't see how the PL will ever be a remote consideration. (W&M fans, feel free to chime in here.) UR values FB and has several historic & growing geographic rivals in the CAA that the PL cannot match. Perhaps if the CAA dramatically changed, the PL could be an option for these schools. That seems like the only way the PL enters the picture for these two schools, regardless of how much PL competitiveness improves.

Finally, while not the PL, CAA FB schools are hardly chopped liver where academics are concerned. UNH, UMaine, UD, W&M, UR, VU, TU, JMU, etc. all perform well.

You are on the money about W&M. Barring a major shakeup of the CAA, and a dramatic rise in the overall competitiveness of the PL, W&M would not even consider a move. If major changes come to FCS conferences, W&M is more likely to retain alignment with Richmond for football, and seek relationships with Furman, Wofford, and Elon in planning its football future, possibly by returning to the SoCon. The all-sport quality of the CAA is likely to remain a primary draw for the Tribe, and until UD, JMU, and ODU ALL move up (not sure this will ever happen) there is no chance the Tribe even considers a move.

The mindset at W&M is different from the PL. There has never been a need to affiliate exclusively with peer academic institutions for athletic competition in order to protect academic integrity. Our admissions office does a fine job of that on their own. We have our own AI, and no interest in others imposing theirs. We will remain at 63 scholarships, and award them based on our own criteria. Richmond fans can chime in, but I suspect the view is similar.

I've been curious why the PL decided on 60 scholarships as a limit. Why not 63?

[DFW HOYA]

But any team that is a part of the Big East or A-10, that's a different situation. The Big East might not exist next year in its current form - and that will affect the A-10 one way or another.


The Big East is not going away. Let's stay on the topic at hand.

[RichH2]

Wishful thinking DFWxeyebrowx. PL threads are crackerbarrels , Anything longer than 3-4 pages becomes an open forum. I expect PFL guys to chime in shortly.xblahx

On topic,in a way, probable that CAA will morph into a different configuration over the next 2-3 years. Will Big South even survive? Atlantic 10 football? Too many variables to really predict landscape. Only current option for PL is to improve as much as possible over that time.xtwocentsx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Big East is not going away. Let's stay on the topic at hand.

I said "might not exist next year in its current form". Not to be dramatic, but this epic goof by Marinatto that might allow Temple in the Big East in all sports could honestly, truly, wreck the Big East beyond repair. That's my opinion.

If you were Villanova, would you take Temple's admittance sitting down?

[bostonspider]

It is the shake up of the CAA Football Conference that I fear. If JMU, ODU and GSU all move up, what are we left with? UR and W&M will likely stick together in trying to find a new football home. But to think that those two really care too much about annual games with UNH, Maine or Towson is just not likely. Delaware and Villanova are a different story, and I know that both schools like having those two on the schedule. It is really to soon to say what the VA duo would do if the CAA Football conference started to fall apart. I know that rivalries with Elon, Wofford, and Furman would certainly be attractive to Richmond, but we are a more northern school in outlook than W&M, so I can see some draw to compete with the PL schools as well. My dream conference would likely combine both:

North
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Bucknell
Lafayette
Lehigh

South
Georgetown
Richmond
William & Mary
Elon
Furman
Wofford

Or a different version of the southern side with

South
Villanova
Delaware
Georgetown
Richmond
William & Mary
Virginia Military Institute

[RichH2]

It is the shake up of the CAA Football Conference that I fear. If JMU, ODU and GSU all move up, what are we left with? UR and W&M will likely stick together in trying to find a new football home. But to think that those two really care too much about annual games with UNH, Maine or Towson is just not likely. Delaware and Villanova are a different story, and I know that both schools like having those two on the schedule. It is really to soon to say what the VA duo would do if the CAA Football conference started to fall apart. I know that rivalries with Elon, Wofford, and Furman would certainly be attractive to Richmond, but we are a more northern school in outlook than W&M, so I can see some draw to compete with the PL schools as well. My dream conference would likely combine both:

North
Holy Cross
Colgate
Fordham
Bucknell
Lafayette
Lehigh

South
Georgetown
Richmond
William & Mary
Elon
Furman
Wofford

Or a different version of the southern side with

South
Villanova
Delaware
Georgetown
Richmond
William & Mary
Virginia Military Institute

Would be fun but an unlikely scenario. May indeed be a logical and practical idea for NE FCS football. Doubt our presidents would go for it.

[carney2]

Again, you're missing the point. Richmond, W&M, and Villanova are not going to beat a path to the ABE area to actively leave the CAA to join our league. But other factors could certainly change things to make a brand-new reality that just two years ago seemed inconceivable.

W&M is not going to leave the CAA, period. They're not going to leave a conference with bus games to JMU, ODU and VCU to play teams from Easton, Bethlehem and Worcester.

But any team that is a part of the Big East or A-10, that's a different situation. The Big East might not exist next year in its current form - and that will affect the A-10 one way or another.

The PL is well poised to capitalize on conference uncertainty now when they weren't before. Before, thoughts of going to the PL was a laugh. But for some schools, the PL is now an option. That's different from saying that W&M is going to pull up its stakes and join the PL because we're so great.

I hear what you're saying. It is not what other people in this thread have been saying however. It may be what they're intending, but it is not what they're saying. My intent was to tone down the rhetoric.

[carney2]

I've been curious why the PL decided on 60 scholarships as a limit. Why not 63?

There has, to the best of my knowledge, been no comment on this subject, but here is the opinion of one interested observer (me):

1. Arithmetic. - 4 X 15 = 60. Makes the phase-in...uh...neater.

2. We're better than you. We're better than this. - 63 is for the football factories and the schools that place undue emphasis on athletics. This is the Patriot League. We value academics over athletics. Please note, America, that we did not jump into this with both feet. We have our standards, you know.

[RichH2]

There has, to the best of my knowledge, been no comment on this subject, but here is the view of one interested observer (me):

1. Arithmetic. - 4 X 15 = 60. Makes the phase-in...uh...neater.

2. We're better than you. We're better than this. - 63 is for the football factories and the schools that place undue emphasis on athletics. This is the Patriot League. We value academics over athletics. Please note, America, that we did not jump into this with both feet. We have our standards, you know.


xeekx xrolleyesx Took us this long just to agree on merit aid. Run the risk of being perceived as an athletic conferencexshhhx not ever going to happen. There is a practical reason for the 60 PL limit perhaps in medical redshirts. If team already at 60 a redshirt would still be w/in NCAA limits.

Not sure how that would be treated by PL.

[carney2]

xeekx xrolleyesx Took us this long just to agree on merit aid. Run the risk of being perceived as an athletic conferencexshhhx not ever going to happen. There is a practical reason for the 60 PL limit perhaps in medical redshirts. If team already at 60 a redshirt would still be w/in NCAA limits.

Not sure how that would be treated by PL.

Really, Rich?! And just how much do you think that impacted the decision making process? Personally, I'm placing your redshirt thought under the heading Unintended Consequences.

[henfan]

Message boards discussions tend to lead to projections about FB reclassification or conference switcheroos as if they happened in a vacuum. Alas, schools typically have 15-20 other sports to consider when making changes. There's obviously much more to consider than simply FB.

This is why it drives me batty when posters invent conference scenarios based exclusively on FB profiles. It's also why those fantasy leagues have a 99.99999% chance of never becoming reality.

[RichH2]

Really, Rich?! And just how much do you think that impacted the decision making process? Personally, I'm placing your redshirt thought under the heading Unintended Consequences.

Oh, I agree just looking for a rationalization.

[Tribe4SF]

There has, to the best of my knowledge, been no comment on this subject, but here is the opinion of one interested observer (me):

1. Arithmetic. - 4 X 15 = 60. Makes the phase-in...uh...neater.

2. We're better than you. We're better than this. - 63 is for the football factories and the schools that place undue emphasis on athletics. This is the Patriot League. We value academics over athletics. Please note, America, that we did not jump into this with both feet. We have our standards, you know.

Good laugh at that!

Seemed like a silly decision to me, and those silly reasons could well be real I suppose.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Scholarships are not - repeat, NOT - going to make the Patriot League competitive with the CAA and SoCon. The AI will see to that. The League may get a little better and may have some success in OOC games, but going toe to toe anuually with Delaware, JMU , App State and GSU? What are you smoking?

I humbly disagree. Lehigh was competitive this year. With scholarships, they'll be that much better. Patriot has the AI, but we also recruit NATIONALLY - East Southwestern JoeBlow State does not. Smarter kids play smarter football.


Villanova, Richmond and William & Mary are not moving to the Patriot League - not in my lifetime, at least. Pull your heads out and take a long, clear look at reality. If your argument depends on the Patriot League achieving competitive parity, take a look at point one above. Ain't gonna happen.

Not right now they won't but I'd like to dispel the notion that the PL is so inherently loathsome that no one would ever join, regardless of its competitiveness - a notion that continues to be fostered by you, Sader87 and a whole bunch of people at Fordham.


Rutgers vs. Lehigh or Rutgers vs. Lafayette is a game that just "needs to happen." Why? The build up to the first one may be a thrill for some of you, but after a few 60-6 bashings, I'm betting you'll be pretty tired of it. These games are money makers, not athletic competitions. So shall it ever be.

You would prefer East Southwestern JoeBlow State?


Some of you people are downright delusional and need to smack yourselves a few times.

Thank you Sir - may I have another? Seriously, I'm realistic about the PL. I like us. I don't want to be the CAA or the MVC or whatever. Like most, I had a choice about where to attend college and I chose Lafayette for a reason. Right now, I think that simply playing Rutgers is a big step. I we can be as competitive as we were vs. Army during the years that I was in school, I'll be perfectly happy.

[Doc QB]

You are on the money about W&M. Barring a major shakeup of the CAA, and a dramatic rise in the overall competitiveness of the PL, W&M would not even consider a move. If major changes come to FCS conferences, W&M is more likely to retain alignment with Richmond for football, and seek relationships with Furman, Wofford, and Elon in planning its football future, possibly by returning to the SoCon. The all-sport quality of the CAA is likely to remain a primary draw for the Tribe, and until UD, JMU, and ODU ALL move up (not sure this will ever happen) there is no chance the Tribe even considers a move.

The mindset at W&M is different from the PL. There has never been a need to affiliate exclusively with peer academic institutions for athletic competition in order to protect academic integrity. Our admissions office does a fine job of that on their own. We have our own AI, and no interest in others imposing theirs. We will remain at 63 scholarships, and award them based on our own criteria. Richmond fans can chime in, but I suspect the view is similar.

I've been curious why the PL decided on 60 scholarships as a limit. Why not 63?

My two cents or several points, and not directed at Tribe4SF, just his post had me thinking. One, how it is not hard to recognize that the possible CAA defections in the next several years (I'm talking ODU, GSU, JMU) will change how the remaining schools will want to align? Is it hard to imagine this shake up would send schools potentially looking elsewhere? Sure, W&M has history with SoCon and along with UR would make nice fit as additions there, but will the SoCon need them either? Two, more than several schools have left along the way or dropped football all together (BU, N'eastern, Hofstra, Vermont, UConn, URI). Three, the CAA has added teams along the way, some with intent to stay awhile (Towson) and others likely along for a short ride before reclassifiying (GSU, ODU). Four, the history of the conference reveals several name changes and corresponding league administrative office changes with it (Yankee Conference, Atlantic-10, now CAA). Is it inconceivable this could not happen again given it already has three times and the landscape is still changing?

And...the Tribe indeed does have history with wanting to affiliate with like minded academic institutions, as it was a charter member of the Patriot League's predecessor, the first Colonial League (although they bailed over the very issue of scholarships).

A scholarship Patriot League is not an answer for conference realignment. But it is a good thing for the overall FCS landscape from a standpoint of a collection of schools that are similar in academics and sports an a fair amount of stability. Now it could have some opportunity for growth football wise. Do you really think the PL presidents allowed scholarships just to get more playoff teams in the tourney outside the auto-bid? Hardly. They see the landscape of FCS football and positioned themselves to now be in the discussion as time passes on.

It may be totally absurd to think any or all of the remaining CAA teams would have the desire to be or even want to be a good fit for the Patriot League, but it is equally absurd to think the CAA is a conference that drips with stability and security. They obvioulsy have an enviable success in the playoffs, but member stability and league office-wise, history tells us otherwise, pretty clearly.

[carney2]

Good laugh at that!

Seemed like a silly decision to me, and those silly reasons could well be real I suppose.

The wording may have been somewhat lighthearted, but those were both serious statements. I actually believe that these are the primary reasons that the number 60 was settled on.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I've been curious why the PL decided on 60 scholarships as a limit. Why not 63?

Maybe because it's easy - each member gets 15 scholarships per year to ramp up. No squabbling over the "extra" three. The presidents can simply amend it once everyone gets ramped up.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe because it's easy - each member gets 15 scholarships per year to ramp up. No squabbling over the "extra" three. The presidents can simply amend it once everyone gets ramped up.

When boards like this were debating the merits of this two years ago, there was an assumption that there was no way the PL was going to be a 60+ conference, because if Lafayette or Bucknell wanted to stay at 40-45 equivalencies (or Georgetown at far less), there would be no mandate, in rule or implied, for everyone to spend at the highest level. Now, it really is 60 or else for six of these PL schools, and this makes it far more challenging for any other school to hope to compete with a smaller number of need based aid awards.

[Bogus Megapardus]

When boards like this were debating the merits of this two years ago, there was an assumption that there was no way the PL was going to be a 60+ conference, because if Lafayette or Bucknell wanted to stay at 40-45 equivalencies (or Georgetown at far less), there would be no mandate, in rule or implied, for everyone to spend at the highest level. Now, it really is 60 or else for six of these PL schools, and this makes it far more challenging for any other school to hope to compete with a smaller number of need based aid awards.

Many posters (myself included) thought that the Patriot ought to go full scholarship or not at all. The compromise position was discussed becasue it was just that - a compromise. Some figured it was the only way that certain members would agree to allow scholarships - especially since most of the league (Georgetown excepted) already had 40 or more need-based equivalencies. So the economic impact would be limited to providing additional money to bring women's sports into Title IX compliance.

I was never a gung-ho scholarship advocate. I'm still not. But aside from the need to simply to "get it done," the compromise approach made little sense. If the PL is going to compete with the better FCS conferences, then it ought to step up and do so on their level.

A halfhearted approach probably is more offensive to PL "ideals" than the fundamental issue of merit aid itself. Some might have argued that the halfway approach would appease Big Ivy, but I don't see it. Either we have scholarships, or we don't. We're just as repugnant to Ivy sensibilities with 20 or 40 scholarships as we are with 60.

Patriot football would have been just fine if the league had stood pat, muddling on as always. But the gap between how Ivy funds football and how the Patriot funds football would have grown wider all the time. In time, we wouldn't even have been able to keep up with the NEC. We'd have been back to all-Ivy, all the time and would have had no way to distinguish ourselves as a conference - in fact we'd lose ground.

Fordham would split. No one else wanted in. How would 40 scholarships have made a difference? It wouldn't.

[Sader87]

I humbly disagree. Lehigh was competitive this year. With scholarships, they'll be that much better. Patriot has the AI, but we also recruit NATIONALLY - East Southwestern JoeBlow State does not. Smarter kids play smarter football.



Not right now they won't but I'd like to dispel the notion that the PL is so inherently loathsome that no one would ever join, regardless of its competitiveness - a notion that continues to be fostered by you, Sader87 and a whole bunch of people at Fordham.



You would prefer East Southwestern JoeBlow State?



Thank you Sir - may I have another? Seriously, I'm realistic about the PL. I like us. I don't want to be the CAA or the MVC or whatever. Like most, I had a choice about where to attend college and I chose Lafayette for a reason. Right now, I think that simply playing Rutgers is a big step. I we can be as competitive as we were vs. Army during the years that I was in school, I'll be perfectly happy.

The PL was pretty loathesome without football scholarships....at least it was for HC's experience, particularly from the early-1990's to the early-2000's. We went from playing (and sometimes beating) the likes of Army, BC, UMass, William&Mary to in fairly short order, playing (and often times losing to) the likes of Marist, Fairfield, Duquense etc. Crowds and fan interest nearly evaporated.

That being said, with the return of scholarships, hopefully the PL can soon be competitive with just about any program in the FCS.

[Bogus Megapardus]

That being said, with the return of scholarships, hopefully the PL can soon be competitive with just about any program in the FCS.

Just like Lafayette went from playing Rutgers, Army, Delaware and Temple to playing Davidson, East Stroudsburg and Central Connecticut State. It affected everyone. We're back on track now, I hope.

And I really want to see a Holy Cross/Boston College game. We all would.

[van]

Just like Lafayette went from playing Rutgers, Army, Delaware and Temple to playing Davidson, East Stroudsburg and Central Connecticut State. It affected everyone. We're back on track now, I hope.

And I really want to see a Holy Cross/Boston College game. We all would.

Opens several nice local FBS opportunities for Cross, Army, BU, UConn and soon UMass. Even a non-regional FBS game can be useful, Coach tells recruit, yeah, we're playing Penn State, Alabama, Stanford, BYU, (you get the picture) next year. As has been stated by at least one coach, an FBS payday would cover a few full rides!

[carney2]

I humbly disagree. Lehigh was competitive this year. With scholarships, they'll be that much better. Patriot has the AI, but we also recruit NATIONALLY - East Southwestern JoeBlow State does not. Smarter kids play smarter football.

Not right now they won't but I'd like to dispel the notion that the PL is so inherently loathsome that no one would ever join, regardless of its competitiveness - a notion that continues to be fostered by you, Sader87 and a whole bunch of people at Fordham.

You would prefer East Southwestern JoeBlow State?

Thank you Sir - may I have another? Seriously, I'm realistic about the PL. I like us. I don't want to be the CAA or the MVC or whatever. Like most, I had a choice about where to attend college and I chose Lafayette for a reason. Right now, I think that simply playing Rutgers is a big step. I we can be as competitive as we were vs. Army during the years that I was in school, I'll be perfectly happy.

Sometimes you worry me, Bogie. I'm convinced that Lehigh's 2011 run was an aberration, a perfect storm, but you seem to advocate that it's the norm and the jumping off point for more of the same - for the entire League. The Patriot League is not "inherently loathsome," but to assume or even hint that the approval of scholarships will vault the League into the top ranks of FCS football is absurd. And no, I do not prefer matches with JoeBlow State over games with Rutgers, Maryland, Navy etc., but to view these contests as anything more than cash cows is either delusional or dishonest.

[carney2]

When boards like this were debating the merits of this two years ago, there was an assumption that there was no way the PL was going to be a 60+ conference, because if Lafayette or Bucknell wanted to stay at 40-45 equivalencies (or Georgetown at far less), there would be no mandate, in rule or implied, for everyone to spend at the highest level. Now, it really is 60 or else for six of these PL schools, and this makes it far more challenging for any other school to hope to compete with a smaller number of need based aid awards.

I don't know where you were reading about these "assumptions," DFW, but my memory is that most were assuming (1) enough scholarships (58) to be a counter for money games, and (2) a basketball type arrangement that allows each school to do its own thing. And that, by the way, is pretty much how it turned out.

[DFW HOYA]

I don't know where you were reading about these "assumptions," DFW, but my memory is that most were assuming (1) enough scholarships (58) to be a counter for money games, and (2) a basketball type arrangement that allows each school to do its own thing. And that, by the way, is pretty much how it turned out.

Great for the six, not for the seventh.

(What would you be saying Lafayette stayed without scholarships and the other six went to 60?)

[Model Citizen]

If VMI and CCU both leave, does the Big South have another team handy so they can keep their autobid?

Campbell will join them eventually. They've all but said the PFL is a stepping stone.

Jacksonville would be interested in a scholarship football conference...maybe an associate membership in the Big South...but they don't have any money, and they play on a glorified intramural field.

[carney2]

Great for the six, not for the seventh.

(What would you be saying Lafayette stayed without scholarships and the other six went to 60?)

I'd be checking D-3 scheduling opportunities.

[Go...gate]

Great for the six, not for the seventh.

(What would you be saying Lafayette stayed without scholarships and the other six went to 60?)

Lafayette would be at a crossroads.

[Tribe4SF]

My two cents or several points, and not directed at Tribe4SF, just his post had me thinking. One, how it is not hard to recognize that the possible CAA defections in the next several years (I'm talking ODU, GSU, JMU) will change how the remaining schools will want to align? Is it hard to imagine this shake up would send schools potentially looking elsewhere? Sure, W&M has history with SoCon and along with UR would make nice fit as additions there, but will the SoCon need them either? Two, more than several schools have left along the way or dropped football all together (BU, N'eastern, Hofstra, Vermont, UConn, URI). Three, the CAA has added teams along the way, some with intent to stay awhile (Towson) and others likely along for a short ride before reclassifiying (GSU, ODU). Four, the history of the conference reveals several name changes and corresponding league administrative office changes with it (Yankee Conference, Atlantic-10, now CAA). Is it inconceivable this could not happen again given it already has three times and the landscape is still changing?

And...the Tribe indeed does have history with wanting to affiliate with like minded academic institutions, as it was a charter member of the Patriot League's predecessor, the first Colonial League (although they bailed over the very issue of scholarships).

A scholarship Patriot League is not an answer for conference realignment. But it is a good thing for the overall FCS landscape from a standpoint of a collection of schools that are similar in academics and sports an a fair amount of stability. Now it could have some opportunity for growth football wise. Do you really think the PL presidents allowed scholarships just to get more playoff teams in the tourney outside the auto-bid? Hardly. They see the landscape of FCS football and positioned themselves to now be in the discussion as time passes on.

It may be totally absurd to think any or all of the remaining CAA teams would have the desire to be or even want to be a good fit for the Patriot League, but it is equally absurd to think the CAA is a conference that drips with stability and security. They obvioulsy have an enviable success in the playoffs, but member stability and league office-wise, history tells us otherwise, pretty clearly.

Affiliating with like-minded academic institutions is certainly something W&M has always been interested in, but my point was that there has never been a need to do so to protect the academic integrity of the school through league mandated standards. Sure we like being in a league with schools who share a commitment to academic integrity, but the primary reason we found the Yankee Conference attractive was the commitment to competing at the highest level possible.

As to league stability, the advent of CAA football marked a huge improvement in management over the A-10 affiliation. The quality of the league office was well known, and the new TV deal is evidence of the league's ability to advance the priorities of the members. Certainly members have come, and gone, and there will undoubtedly be some movement in the future, but I'm far from convinced that those changes will be earthshaking to the point that the league's continuance is threatened. Future changes in membership are now centered on schools who MIGHT want to go FBS, and while it's possible that ODU, JMU, Georgia State and Delaware could achieve the jump, I believe it's unlikely that all will. Even if they did, there are a number of schools who could augment the league such as Stony Brook, Albany, Coastal Carolina, and even some of the current SoCon members. If speculation about move ups were correct, and we lost three members to FBS tomorrow, the CAA would still have as many members as the PL, and would have much brighter prospects for adding new teams.

While the PL presidents may have seen the FCS landscape, and positioned themselves to be in the discussion, I think the decision was more motivated by a need to save the football league. As long as the league AI is in place, the potential for growth will be extremely limited. With only seven members, and Georgetown's football future a shaky proposition, the PL may have secured its existence, but it's only marginally more attractive to W&M.

[van]

Affiliating with like-minded academic institutions is certainly something W&M has always been interested in, but my point was that there has never been a need to do so to protect the academic integrity of the school through league mandated standards. Sure we like being in a league with schools who share a commitment to academic integrity, but the primary reason we found the Yankee Conference attractive was the commitment to competing at the highest level possible.

As to league stability, the advent of CAA football marked a huge improvement in management over the A-10 affiliation. The quality of the league office was well known, and the new TV deal is evidence of the league's ability to advance the priorities of the members. Certainly members have come, and gone, and there will undoubtedly be some movement in the future, but I'm far from convinced that those changes will be earthshaking to the point that the league's continuance is threatened. Future changes in membership are now centered on schools who MIGHT want to go FBS, and while it's possible that ODU, JMU, Georgia State and Delaware could achieve the jump, I believe it's unlikely that all will. Even if they did, there are a number of schools who could augment the league such as Stony Brook, Albany, Coastal Carolina, and even some of the current SoCon members. If speculation about move ups were correct, and we lost three members to FBS tomorrow, the CAA would still have as many members as the PL, and would have much brighter prospects for adding new teams.

While the PL presidents may have seen the FCS landscape, and positioned themselves to be in the discussion, I think the decision was more motivated by a need to save the football league. As long as the league AI is in place, the potential for growth will be extremely limited. With only seven members, and Georgetown's football future a shaky proposition, the PL may have secured its existence, but it's only marginally more attractive to W&M.

Good analysis, would be interested in opinions and ranking of "most likely to join PL." Say, top 5. Believe W&M would not be high on the list.

[carney2]

I honestly don't know much about it, but it would appear to this outsider that CAA stability is threatened by two things:

1. The potential movement of schools To FBS. There is nothing definite on this, but UMass is already gone, Villanova has given it some consideration, and rumors surface every now and then about Delaware, JMU, and even ODU. That's a lot of schools.

2. With UMass going FBS and Rhode Island moving to the NEC, the northern wing of the CAA is a veritable wasteland. In Maine and New Hampshire it will begin to feel like they have to board a plane just to get to practice. This will become an increasing burden on just two schools, as the southern contingent will still be able to rely on buses for most of its trips. Unless the CAA can peel some schools out of the NEC (unlikely), the Patriot League, or the Big South (Stony Brook), they are in danger of becoming an all southern conference. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the options are for Maine and New Hampshire, but you have to believe that the near term prospect of life in the CAA is not real attractive.

Throw all of this in with the Big Least morphing into the Big Mess and, despite what our W&M poster says, the CAA just does not appear to be poised for long term stability.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Throw all of this in with the Big Least morphing into the Big Mess and, despite what our W&M poster says, the CAA just does not appear to be poised for long term stability.

Rep points just for echoing my Big Eastern sentiments.

[RichH2]

Tribe is right on one aspect , the AI will surely restrict who would want to join PL. To reiterate , for good or ill ,PL is an academic athletic grouping. It is highly unlikely that the former will at any point be controlled by the latter. Merit aid will make league more accessible but never soley an athletic conference. Is it possible that a geographic alignment is possible regardless of academics. Not now ,but I would never preclude that as a possibilty. The current trend towards Super conferences may indeed lead to a group wherein PL might be a division.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Tribe is right on one aspect , the AI will surely restrict who would want to join PL. To reiterate , for good or ill ,PL is an academic athletic grouping. It is highly unlikely that the former will at any point be controlled by the latter. Merit aid will make league more accessible but never soley an athletic conference. Is it possible that a geographic alignment is possible regardless of academics. Not now ,but I would never preclude that as a possibilty. The current trend towards Super conferences may indeed lead to a group wherein PL might be a division.


I couldn't imagine dropping the AI. It's not as if some of us couldn't go to the NEC or CAA or whatever and compete without the academic restrictions. The question becomes, does football membership in the PL improve the reputation of the college more than it harms athletic competitiveness and recruiting ability? There's a lot to balance out in that equation. For some members it's a close call. For others it's an obvious plus.

One thing we do know is that the presidents like being in the Patriot League and they will make sacrifices to remain. Lehigh could bolt right now to the CAA but it won't. Maybe Colgate as well. Lafayette's president gave in in order to remain in the PL, and it appears that HC's and Bucknell's did as well. Fordham remained very patient and even sacrificed playoff eligibility and individual honors in order to stay. So the association appears to be of some added value to this group of old-guard traditionalists value that would be lost in another conference.

[RichH2]

I couldn't imagine dropping the AI. It's not as if some of us couldn't go to the NEC or CAA or whatever and compete without the academic restrictions. The question becomes, does football membership in the PL improve the reputation of the college more than it harms athletic competitiveness and recruiting ability? There's a lot to balance out in that equation. For some members it's a close call. For others it's an obvious plus.

One thing we do know is that the presidents like being in the Patriot League and they will make sacrifices to remain. Lehigh could bolt right now to the CAA but it won't. Maybe Colgate as well. Lafayette's president gave in in order to remain in the PL, and it appears that HC's and Bucknell's did as well. Fordham remained very patient and even sacrificed playoff eligibility and individual honors in order to stay. So the association appears to be of some added value to this group of old-guard traditionalists value that would be lost in another conference.

Good point Bogie. Those in PL do seem to love it enough to put up with inherent aggravations.. Perhaps our selling point should be Try it ,you'll like it.

Bogie, given your rather creative and articulate bent , you would be ideal to develop an ad campaign for PL. IE Once you've had the best , you wont go back to the rest.

[WH49er]

good to hear from you! How's Chucky's 2nd hoops season going? 4 D-1 wins? In Duggar Baucom's 2nd season, VMI made the Big South tourney final game........and I'll admit our wrestling program has hit bottom......

Great to see a Charlotte graduate succeed.

[DFW HOYA]

One thing we do know is that the presidents like being in the Patriot League and they will make sacrifices to remain. Lehigh could bolt right now to the CAA but it won't. Maybe Colgate as well. Lafayette's president gave in in order to remain in the PL, and it appears that HC's and Bucknell's did as well. Fordham remained very patient and even sacrificed playoff eligibility and individual honors in order to stay. So the association appears to be of some added value to this group of old-guard traditionalists value that would be lost in another conference.

One school didn't "give in" as others did. Is it an added value to Georgetown anymore? TBD.

But frankly, the usual suspects for any meaningful expansion don't "need" the gilded cage of the AI like a Colgate or a Bucknell apparently does.

[RichH2]

Gee, no one "needs"a league wide AI . W&M et al have decided that they would rather compete in a more competitive football conference despite being at somewhat of a disadvantage to state schools with much easier admission standards. Would they rather be in less of a disadvantage in the PL with merit aid, assuming PL's footprint does improve ? Time will tell. I have never been a big proponent of PL wide AI. Rather leave it up to each school altho I do understand the motivation. A " gilded cage" perhaps but one of our own choosing.

[carney2]

Gee, no one "needs"a league wide AI . W&M et al have decided that they would rather compete in a more competitive football conference despite being at somewhat of a disadvantage to state schools with much easier admission standards. Would they rather be in less of a disadvantage in the PL with merit aid, assuming PL's footprint does improve ? Time will tell. I have never been a big proponent of PL wide AI. Rather leave it up to each school altho I do understand the motivation. A " gilded cage" perhaps but one of our own choosing.

I've read most of the posts explaining the AI, but I confess to understanding it - not. Could be, I guess, that when the topic comes up my eyes glaze over, and when I attempt to read one of the long-winded, technical posts on it I usually wake up with my connection timed out. Anyway, I'm with Rich on this one. Why wouldn't a school-by-school AI work? Why couldn't New Hampshire, for instance, be a Patriot League member by complying with an AI rule that states that the overall academic profile of the incoming football scholarship recipients mirrors the academic profile of all admitted freshmen in some specific minimum way? If you want to throw in banding, be my guest. Frankly, I don't see the existence of the Academic Index as a roadblock to any route the Patriot League maps out for itself from here if cooler heads prevail.

[henfan]

I honestly don't know much about it, but it would appear to this outsider that CAA stability is threatened by two things:

1. The potential movement of schools To FBS. There is nothing definite on this, but UMass is already gone, Villanova has given it some consideration, and rumors surface every now and then about Delaware, JMU, and even ODU. That's a lot of schools.

2. With UMass going FBS and Rhode Island moving to the NEC, the northern wing of the CAA is a veritable wasteland. In Maine and New Hampshire it will begin to feel like they have to board a plane just to get to practice. This will become an increasing burden on just two schools, as the southern contingent will still be able to rely on buses for most of its trips. Unless the CAA can peel some schools out of the NEC (unlikely), the Patriot League, or the Big South (Stony Brook), they are in danger of becoming an all southern conference. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the options are for Maine and New Hampshire, but you have to believe that the near term prospect of life in the CAA is not real attractive.

Throw all of this in with the Big Least morphing into the Big Mess and, despite what our W&M poster says, the CAA just does not appear to be poised for long term stability.

People have been predicting the demise of what is now the CAA Football League since its was the Yankee Conference in the 1970's. It seems to be a regular topic of Chuck's fantasy blog posts. While many of the original members have departed, the league remains competitively one of the strongest in the FCS. I have absolutely no doubt that more membership changes are bound to happen but it will not affect the CAA's ability to maintain control of a solid football league.

Again, discussion enters the bubble and few seem willing to/capable of discussing the FB league in the context of the Olympic sport league. While the two are separate legal entities, there's clearly no mistaking that CAA Olympic sport members wield considerable control over the FB league. In fact, it's highly unlikely at this point that any school will be admitted to CAA FB unless they are CAA members. That said, the CAA remains one of the strongest mid-major conferences in all of D-I. You're kidding yourself if you believe the CAA doesn't have a hammer and will use it if/when the time comes for expansion. Should it come to that, I don't think it will work out particularly well for the PL, NEC Big South or AEC.

And the CAA is in danger of becoming "an all southern conference" when its membership includes NU, HU, DU, UD, VU and TU, plus a few other Olympic sport affiliates north of VA. The fact that the CAA extends from Boston to Atlanta, and includes large media outlets like Philly, Baltimore, DC, Hampton & Richmond, helped the conference land its recent TV deal. It's hardly as regional or small market as the PL, for example.

(PS- Delaware is not going anywhere any time soon. There's no reason to believe otherwise.)

[RichH2]

Yup, my thought is that with some tinkereing in PL rule to satisfy our presidents other schools besides the THREE may be viable options in 2or 3 years. While Fordham has a paper advantage in lower admission requirements it has never translated into a competitive one. A broader based NE conference may then be a realistic possibility

[van]

I honestly don't know much about it, but it would appear to this outsider that CAA stability is threatened by two things:

1. The potential movement of schools To FBS. There is nothing definite on this, but UMass is already gone, Villanova has given it some consideration, and rumors surface every now and then about Delaware, JMU, and even ODU. That's a lot of schools.

2. With UMass going FBS and Rhode Island moving to the NEC, the northern wing of the CAA is a veritable wasteland. In Maine and New Hampshire it will begin to feel like they have to board a plane just to get to practice. This will become an increasing burden on just two schools, as the southern contingent will still be able to rely on buses for most of its trips. Unless the CAA can peel some schools out of the NEC (unlikely), the Patriot League, or the Big South (Stony Brook), they are in danger of becoming an all southern conference. Your guess is as good as mine as to what the options are for Maine and New Hampshire, but you have to believe that the near term prospect of life in the CAA is not real attractive.

Throw all of this in with the Big Least morphing into the Big Mess and, despite what our W&M poster says, the CAA just does not appear to be poised for long term stability.

Unfortunatly for UHH and Maine, they don't seem to have much of a better option than the CAA.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

People have been predicting the demise of what is now the CAA Football League since its was the Yankee Conference in the 1970's. It seems to be a regular topic of Chuck's fantasy blog posts...

xlolx xlolx xlolx xlolx Since when have I ever blogged about the demise of the CAA?

Where I bring up the CAA takeover of the A-10, and the folly of Northeastern joining:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2004/06/northeasterns-caa-folly.html

Where I say that the CAA could be going after UNCC in a 1-for-1 trade:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/03/how-ncaa-tournament-might-affect-caa.html

CAA Leverage after VCU's tournament run:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/04/final-four-run-football-in-vcus-future.html


Five years on, it's hard to argue that losing football has improved the A-10 in basketball. Yes, the A-10 had as many at-large bids to the tournament as the CAA this year, but Xavier, their conference champion, flamed out in the first round while VCU made a run at the championship. Optics matter in this case: the A-10 has zero Final Four teams in the last five years, and the CAA has one. That means a lot.

This has to change the viewpoints of some teams within the Atlantic Ten - especially those that sponsor football teams at the FCS level.

Suppose you're an Atlantic Ten team with great basketball and an FCS football team. You're a team that is either starting football (UNC-Charlotte), playing non-scholarship football (Dayton), limited scholarship football (Duquesne), competing essentially as an independent (Fordham) or moved to the CAA in football when the A-10 got out of the football business (Richmond, UMass).

Don't all these schools need to now take a look at the conference landscape and see where their interests lie?

Finally, Temple's move to the Big East, where I put Villanova as an all-sports option on the table if they leave the Big East:

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2012/02/is-temple-big-east-domino.html

Yeah. All those fantasy posts about the death of the CAA. xlolx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

While many of the original members have departed, the league remains competitively one of the strongest in the FCS. I have absolutely no doubt that more membership changes are bound to happen but it will not affect the CAA's ability to maintain control of a solid football league.

The CAA is a very good mid-major basketball league and is arguably the best conference in all of FCS football. Point. But it's their own members' ambitions in football that do not seem in lockstep. Pretending that Maine's, New Hampshire's, James Madison's and Old Dominion's football ambitions are all the same is just that.

While PL football is not in complete lockstep either, they have at least given the message that they are more in consensus on matters than CAA football. None are planning for life in FBS. All find league-wide academic standards important to their schools.

Perhaps the CAA is planning for a day that their members join the MAC as an FBS conference, if that will be allowed to happen. For a strong mid-major basketball program, that might even be the right thing to do, I don't know. But I can assure you that not every CAA team will make the jump with them. And if that happens, the Patriot League might be the right FCS-level league for those schools to join.

[henfan]

But it's their own members' ambitions in football that do not seem in lockstep. Pretending that Maine's, New Hampshire's, James Madison's and Old Dominion's football ambitions are all the same is just that.

Outside of perhaps the Ivy League, there isn't a conference in D-I whose FB members are in lockstep, including the PL. In D-I, ambition abounds, whether realistic or not.

While I would agree that several CAA FB schools may have different long-term plans for FB, they seem in agreement that the league is the best possible location for them into the foreseeable future. Right now, the only pretending going on is by the message board experts who think they can reasonably forecast where UM, UNH, JMU, ODU, et. al. or just about any FCS program will be a decade from now. Same as it ever was.

[henfan]

Since when have I ever blogged about the demise of the CAA?

Seriously? You are either trying to be coy or are pulling my leg.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The CAA is a very good mid-major basketball league and is arguably the best conference in all of FCS football. Point. But it's their own members' ambitions in football that do not seem in lockstep. Pretending that Maine's, New Hampshire's, James Madison's and Old Dominion's football ambitions are all the same is just that.

While PL football is not in complete lockstep either, they have at least given the message that they are more in consensus on matters than CAA football. None are planning for life in FBS. All find league-wide academic standards important to their schools.

Perhaps the CAA is planning for a day that their members join the MAC as an FBS conference, if that will be allowed to happen. For a strong mid-major basketball program, that might even be the right thing to do, I don't know. But I can assure you that not every CAA team will make the jump with them. And if that happens, the Patriot League might be the right FCS-level league for those schools to join.

The PL doesn't not confuse aspiration with ambition. It has far to much institutional confidence for that kind of show. It will never be a stepping-stone to a "program" seeking to "move up." Nor will it become a repository for misfits.

Unlike Ivy, it's not betrothed to finite, iron-walled exclusivity. You can join but the hazing ritual is really, really difficult, and it's getting harder. Plus it helps to know somebody who knows somebody (i.e., American U) or to be somebody to begin with (i.e., U.S. Naval Academy). There's no prohibition against public colleges. The Academies are public. But the Towson experience suggests that new public members might have a tough go of it. I think Binghamton would fit it it had football. As would Vermont. And VMI.

I think it's fair to say this about the Patriot League, however - once you're in, like no other conference anywhere, we've got your back. And yes, that means you too, Georgetown. Try saying that about the Big East.

[Go...gate]

I couldn't imagine dropping the AI. It's not as if some of us couldn't go to the NEC or CAA or whatever and compete without the academic restrictions. The question becomes, does football membership in the PL improve the reputation of the college more than it harms athletic competitiveness and recruiting ability? There's a lot to balance out in that equation. For some members it's a close call. For others it's an obvious plus.

One thing we do know is that the presidents like being in the Patriot League and they will make sacrifices to remain. Lehigh could bolt right now to the CAA but it won't. Maybe Colgate as well. Lafayette's president gave in in order to remain in the PL, and it appears that HC's and Bucknell's did as well. Fordham remained very patient and even sacrificed playoff eligibility and individual honors in order to stay. So the association appears to be of some added value to this group of old-guard traditionalists value that would be lost in another conference.

The PL now stands on its own and, IMO, has more of a conference-wide philosophical "consensus" than it has had in its 25-year history. No, its members are not unanimous on every issue. But they have now taken a key step together.

[DFW HOYA]

I think it's fair to say this about the Patriot League, however - once you're in, like no other conference anywhere, we've got your back. And yes, that means you too, Georgetown. Try saying that about the Big East.

Georgetown helped build the Big East. It's one of four founding schools and has sweat equity. Even if the Hoyas are playing Tulane or UMass in ten years, it's still home.

The PL is more like an apartment rented out in the fall. Nice neighborhood, but the landlords just changed the terms of the lease and the rent's going way, way up.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Right now, the only pretending going on is by the message board experts who think they can reasonably forecast where UM, UNH, JMU, ODU, et. al. or just about any FCS program will be a decade from now. Same as it ever was.

I agree with this statement. But for these ten-year plans, the Patriot League went from a "Never!" to a possibility for a bunch of different schools. That's not insignificant.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Georgetown helped build the Big East. It's one of four founding schools and has sweat equity. Even if the Hoyas are playing Tulane or UMass in ten years, it's still home.

The PL is more like an apartment rented out in the fall. Nice neighborhood, but the landlords just changed the terms of the lease and the rent's going way, way up.

Neither the PL nor the Big East is quite the same was as when it started. To Georgetown's credit, it has weathered the ebbs and flows of Big East change and not jumped ship like Boston College, Syracuse and Pitt.

As to the "nice neighborhood to visit but I wouldn't want to live there" view of the PL from Georgetown's seat, I can only say the the PL will continue to strive to make Georgetown feel as comfortable and welcome as possible. PL teams have the luxury of five OOC games which can run from Pioneer to Ivy to FBS. You get to choose - Lehigh and Colgate can be your "reach" games, and the others can be Davidsons, Wagners and Dartmouths. I have a feeling you'll be just fine.

[DFW HOYA]

As to the "nice neighborhood to visit but I wouldn't want to live there" view of the PL from Georgetown's seat, I can only say the the PL will continue to strive to make Georgetown feel as comfortable and welcome as possible. PL teams have the luxury of five OOC games which can run from Pioneer to Ivy to FBS. You get to choose - Lehigh and Colgate can be your "reach" games, and the others can be Davidsons, Wagners and Dartmouths. I have a feeling you'll be just fine.

Here's the problem, and one I think Jack DeGioia is keenly aware of: if being "comfortable" in a 60 scholarship PL is to cede six losses a year as a non-scholarship program, it would literally and figuratively become a "no win" situation for the Georgetown football program. It did not go unnoticed in Georgetown circles that Kevin Kelly was 1-22 (.043) in PL play prior to 2010, and it was a unique set of circumstances that allowed him to make it to recover in 2010 and 2011. Nonetheless, any head coach would be hard pressed to make a career in Washington if that's the prognosis going forward.

There are very few examples to compare to this possible situation. If the example of Davidson competing in the scholarship Southern Conference in the late 1970's and 1980's is that example...well, I hope it isn't. Those results nearly destroyed a program that actually went to the 1969 Tangerine (now Citrus) Bowl. From 1974 through 1986 (just before joining the Colonial League), Davidson was 5-67 (.069) versus Division I opponents. Only one of the five wins in 13 seasons from was a scholarship team (Boston University) and none--zero--were within its own conference. Instead, Davidson was left to schedule non-conference games with D-III teams like Guilford, Washington & Lee, and Hampden-Sydney to pick up a few wins along the way. Those who remember what Davidson did over two years in the Colonial League (1-19, its lone win over an NAIA independent) can attest to the disparity.

As President DeGioia put it (emphasis added), "We remain committed to our goal of providing our student athletes with an unparalleled academic experience and an athletically competitive football program." I would much rather compete in the PL than as an independent, but there has to be a path to compete. And if you think your PL school could go scholarship-free and win in this new arrangement, please, step up now.

[van]

Here's the problem, and one I think Jack DeGioia is keenly aware of: if being "comfortable" in a 60 scholarship PL is to cede six losses a year as a non-scholarship program, it would literally and figuratively become a "no win" situation for the Georgetown football program. It did not go unnoticed in Georgetown circles that Kevin Kelly was 1-22 (.043) in PL play prior to 2010, and it was a unique set of circumstances that allowed him to make it to recover in 2010 and 2011. Nonetheless, any head coach would be hard pressed to make a career in Washington if that's the prognosis going forward.

There are very few examples to compare to this possible situation. If the example of Davidson competing in the scholarship Southern Conference in the late 1970's and 1980's is that example...well, I hope it isn't. Those results nearly destroyed a program that actually went to the 1969 Tangerine (now Citrus) Bowl. From 1974 through 1986 (just before joining the Colonial League), Davidson was 5-67 (.069) versus Division I opponents. Only one of the five wins in 13 seasons from was a scholarship team (Boston University) and none--zero--were within its own conference. Instead, Davidson was left to schedule non-conference games with D-III teams like Guilford, Washington & Lee, and Hampden-Sydney to pick up a few wins along the way. Those who remember what Davidson did over two years in the Colonial League (1-19, its lone win over an NAIA independent) can attest to the disparity.

As President DeGioia put it (emphasis added), "We remain committed to our goal of providing our student athletes with an unparalleled academic experience and an athletically competitive football program." I would much rather compete in the PL than as an independent, but there has to be a path to compete. And if you think your PL school could go scholarship-free and win in this new arrangement, please, step up now.

I hear ya, but as an independent, who would Hoyas schedule. What do you think would be a typical 11 game schedule? And how would Hoyas fare against that schedule?

[van]

Well said!

[heath]

Lehigh lacrosse will be at VMI on the 6th,I will be there.Would be nice to see a football game in Lexington soon.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lehigh lacrosse will be at VMI on the 6th,I will be there.Would be nice to see a football game in Lexington soon.

VMI has a nice lacrosse program, but for whatever reason the Keydets just don't seem to play especially well against Patriot teams. I'm sure that could change. Right now they play in the MAAC for lacrosse.

[henfan]

I agree with this statement. But for these ten-year plans, the Patriot League went from a "Never!" to a possibility for a bunch of different schools. That's not insignificant.

We agree on that.

[RichH2]

Davidson an example certainly but not really that relevant to Hoya's situation. Davidson , a small non scholarship program then in one of the 2 top conferences in FCS. The talent gap was enormous and was not closed in the few years they stayed in our league. As it stands now GU has comparable talent with most of PL squads and had a good class this year. Doomsday may be approaching for them but not for 3 or 4 years. No doubt frustrating to Hoyas to have finally become a top tier team in PL only to have PL then up the ante with merit aid. I do sincerely sympathize. But the decision was necessary and correct for the PL as a conference. The solution for GU is $$$, which we are told neither the school nor the alumni have. It seems evident to me that GU has done something to assist football recruiting over the last 3 years given the quality and depth of the classes.Could Hoyas compete in PL using only a need format.Given their academic rep, I believe they could .

[van]

Davidson an example certainly but not really that relevant to Hoya's situation. Davidson , a small non scholarship program then in one of the 2 top conferences in FCS. The talent gap was enormous and was not closed in the few years they stayed in our league. As it stands now GU has comparable talent with most of PL squads and had a good class this year. Doomsday may be approaching for them but not for 3 or 4 years. No doubt frustrating to Hoyas to have finally become a top tier team in PL only to have PL then up the ante with merit aid. I do sincerely sympathize. But the decision was necessary and correct for the PL as a conference. The solution for GU is $$$, which we are told neither the school nor the alumni have. It seems evident to me that GU has done something to assist football recruiting over the last 3 years given the quality and depth of the classes.Could Hoyas compete in PL using only a need format.Given their academic rep, I believe they could .

Never understood why GU alums have no money. Granted that BB is the big kid on the block there, but nothing left over to support a FB team is puzzling.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Never understood why GU alums have no money. Granted that BB is the big kid on the block there, but nothing left over to support a FB team is puzzling.

They have tons of money. Everything they donate bleeds out of Georgetown's liberal-biased wounds, however, into the hands of D.C.'s welfare-enriched elite. Nothing left for the students.

[van]

They have tons of money. Everything they donate bleeds out of Georgetown's liberal-biased wounds, however, into the hands of D.C.'s welfare-enriched elite. Nothing left for the students.

Are we talking GU or the White House?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are we talking GU or the White House?

Is there a difference?

[DFW HOYA]

Never understood why GU alums have no money. Granted that BB is the big kid on the block there, but nothing left over to support a FB team is puzzling.

Two different issues here, and not mutually exclusive.

1. Georgetown does and has supported football since reviving the sport in 1964, consistent with its goals of an Ivy-level nonscholarship program. Its budget is comparable to that of Brown, and as far as I've seen, no one is claiming Brown does not support its football program. It does not, and frankly can not, aspire to spend at Fordham's level.

2. Alumni giving lags at Georgetown behind many schools--some of it is institutional, some generational. Georgetown has a lot of doctors and lawyers that can make a four or five figure gift, but very few alumni in foreign service, law or medicine are the kind of entrepreneurs that can write a seven or eight figure check.

3. I have discussed the fact that Georgetown is reputation rich but cash poor, and this is often doubted by the PL faithful. For those that have seen the public financial statements, with an endowment to debt ratio of just 1.3 to 1 (versus a 3.8 to 1 at Lafayette) leaves little margin for error, especially with losses that have neen staggering.

Georgetown draws just 4% of operating revenues from endowments on a budget of $1.1 billion, of which is has lost no less than $15 million a year (and as much as $84 million) for 16 straight years from its Medical Center and hospital, putting further pressure on a liquidity so severe that GU bonds were once downgraded to BBB+ and placed on Credit Watch by Standard and Poor's. While the rating has improved the losses have not disappeared and will not for at least five years. Getting these issues settled is infinitely more important than football scholarships right now.

Attached is a 2007 public study on the debt, for those who would like a peek behind the curtain.

http://provost.georgetown.edu/documents/PRR%20Fiscal%20Analysis.pdf

[citdog]

what a fraud GU is.......they tolerate this racist http://www.wildcatworld.com/bounce/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/Thompson_john21.jpg


and 'graduate' this http://celevs.com/p/patrick-ewing/patrick-ewing.jpg


all for money and cry poverty for their sorry excuse of a football program?

[DFW HOYA]

Really, is that the best you can do? What's next, Rush Limbaugh and the law student?

[citdog]

Really, is that the best you can do? What's next, Rush Limbaugh and the law student?


is patrick ewing a slut TOO?

[DFW HOYA]

Save your vitriol for for another day, sir.

[citdog]

Save your vitriol for for another day, sir.


i'm just getting started. d1b has told me all about the catholic church.


xnodx xtroublex

[Go...gate]

Really, is that the best you can do? What's next, Rush Limbaugh and the law student?

BTW, GU's President did a fine job backing up that student. Well done.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

'Teaching hospital' and 'profit center' are not commonly used in the same sentence. A hospital usually is also rarely the shoals on which a university's ship founders, but that could be due to the location and DC's relative role in subsidizing uncompensated care. Congress is reluctant to appropriate for DC and uncompensated care is usually funded from state coffers. Teaching hospitals receive favorable 'indirect' (overhead) rates, in deference to the service they provide, when billing elsewhere, but no one pretends they can overcome the entire range of cost considerations in the District-- damn Catholic sense of mission, under-appreciated by some miserly 535 part-time residents-- just a guess.

Regarding VMI--Most of the eight full members do not compete in all 23 PL sports. No one is demanding baseball from Colgate, nor field hockey from Army or Navy. Ice Hockey, Water Polo, Wrestling, Women's Golf and Men's Rowing are all competed by some PL schools outside of the conference, but add to the athletic environment on-campus. VMI has 12 sports to bring to the table (Water Polo, Wrestling and Rifle also suit up, but are non PL sports), and would further stabilize the football conference. Even the public nature of the institution fades away if an AI is in place. This seems a lot more attractive than a new football-only member.

[carney2]

VMI offers 16 varsity sports, including men's rifle and women's rifle, which are highly relevant for VMI but a little strange for the Patriot League. 16, I believe, is the minimum that a school can offer and still be considered D-I. To me, this indicates that they are willing to do the minimum but not much more. I would not expect to see them expanding their women's offerings just to placate the politically correct crowd in the Patriot League.

[citdog]

VMI offers 16 varsity sports, including men's rifle and women's rifle, which are highly relevant for VMI but a little strange for the Patriot League. 16, I believe, is the minimum that a school can offer and still be considered D-I. To me, this indicates that they are willing to do the minimum but not much more. I would not expect to see them expanding their women's offerings just to placate the politically correct crowd in the Patriot League.


especially since women don't belong there




http://oldcorpsclothingstore.com/images/save%20the%20males.png

[Apphole]

especially since women don't belong there




http://oldcorpsclothingstore.com/images/save%20the%20males.png

You know how I know you're gay?

[Go...gate]

'Teaching hospital' and 'profit center' are not commonly used in the same sentence. A hospital usually is also rarely the shoals on which a university's ship founders, but that could be due to the location and DC's relative role in subsidizing uncompensated care. Congress is reluctant to appropriate for DC and uncompensated care is usually funded from state coffers. Teaching hospitals receive favorable 'indirect' (overhead) rates, in deference to the service they provide, when billing elsewhere, but no one pretends they can overcome the entire range of cost considerations in the District-- damn Catholic sense of mission, under-appreciated by some miserly 535 part-time residents-- just a guess.

Regarding VMI--Most of the eight full members do not compete in all 23 PL sports. No one is demanding baseball from Colgate, nor field hockey from Army or Navy. Ice Hockey, Water Polo, Wrestling, Women's Golf and Men's Rowing are all competed by some PL schools outside of the conference, but add to the athletic environment on-campus. VMI has 12 sports to bring to the table (Water Polo, Wrestling and Rifle also suit up, but are non PL sports), and would further stabilize the football conference. Even the public nature of the institution fades away if an AI is in place. This seems a lot more attractive than a new football-only member.

I wish the PL would. It was Colgate's oldest program.

[UAalum72]

VMI offers 16 varsity sports, including men's rifle and women's rifle, which are highly relevant for VMI but a little strange for the Patriot League. 16, I believe, is the minimum that a school can offer and still be considered D-I. To me, this indicates that they are willing to do the minimum but not much more.
14 sports is the minimum for FCS (six men, eight women). 16 for FBS.

[Sader87]

Something tells me that West Point and Annapolis wouldn't exactly welcome VMI (much less the Citadel) to the PL with open hands....could be wrong.

[citdog]

Something tells me that hudson high and canoe u wouldn't exactly welcome VMI (much less the Citadel) to the PL with open hands....could be wrong.


you'd be absolutely correct



PL 'coeds' protesting the inclusion of 'the late united states's' PREMIER Military Institutions






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EhswNAke1wg

[Go...gate]

Something tells me that West Point and Annapolis wouldn't exactly welcome VMI (much less the Citadel) to the PL with open hands....could be wrong.

They certainly play each other periodically, and there is a commonality of mission. I would think they would welcome VMI.

Hey, if there are other realistic candidates beyond VMI, please, bring them on. But, IMO, we will never see Villanova, W & M or Richmond in the Patriot League. Ever.

[citdog]

You know how I know you're gay?


because you want to nuzzle my schmeckle?

[Sader87]

Villanova will be a PL football member or they'll drop football again....one of the two, hope it's the former.

[citdog]

They certainly play each other periodically, and there is a commonality of mission. I would think they would welcome VMI.

Hey, if there are other realistic candidates beyond VMI, please, bring them on. But, IMO, we will never see Villanova, W & M or Richmond in the Patriot League. Ever.


Either of those factories for staff officers would welcome VMI but not us. We defeat the army and the navy quite frequently. with ARMS even!


http://www.scvva.org/paintings/ChargeAtTrevilianStation.jpg



On the gridiron as well. Defeating canoe u in the last two meetings and hudson high two out of the last three.

[Go...gate]

If The Citadel wanted to be in the Patriot League, I think the conference would look at it very seriously.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Which is the Flagship southern military academy, VMI or the Citadel?

[ngineer]

Which is the Flagship southern military academy, VMI or the Citadel?

I'm surprised Citdog hasn't exploded with an artillery barrage. The 'Knobs' of The Citadel have looked down their noses at VMI forever.
Question would be whether the PL or both schools are interested in expanding the footprint of the league over such a broad area.

[citdog]

Which is the Flagship southern military academy, VMI or tThe Citadel?


I don't believe there is any question. The Silver Shako resides with the CADETS now and FOREVER.



http://sonnyholmes.typepad.com/.a/6a00e552250bc98834015392a7ea0b970b-320wi



http://externalaffairs.citadel.edu/files/Image/sy06-07/homepage/r20061109.01.Citadel_00489515.beat-vmi.jpg



http://www.citadelsports.com/sports/fball/2007-08/photos/13941/Team_Celebration.JPG?max_width=450











http://www.citadelalumni.org/rotate/rotate2.jpg

[carney2]

If The Citadel wanted to be in the Patriot League, I think the conference would look at it very seriously.

Even without a southern footprint for the Patriot League? Have you looked at a map? One of the unwritten rules for this League is that no one gets on a plane for a League game. And if you're talking all sports, just picture some of the Holy Cross - or Colgate - Olympic sports teams heading for SC.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Since VMI vs. "The" Citadel could never in a millennium come close to challenging Lafayette vs. Lehigh for unparalleled rivalry dominance, I suppose it could be safe to add both, were there an inclination for southern expansion.

[DFW HOYA]

Since VMI vs. "The" Citadel could never in a millennium come close to challenging Lafayette vs. Lehigh for unparalleled rivalry dominance, I suppose it could be safe to add both, were there an inclination for southern expansion.

Are you trying to bait Citdog into ten more pages of posts? VMI/Citadel is just as fierce a rivalry to these alumni as Leh/Laf is to its alumni.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Are you trying to bait Citdog into ten more pages of posts? VMI/Citadel is just as fierce a rivalry to these alumni as Leh/Laf is to its alumni.

Not if they were in the Patriot League. You have said yourself, DFW, that Lafayette/Lehigh is the only thing that matters in the PL, and I stand firmly behind your sentiments.

It was a mistake, BTW, for the League not to put the fix in on Saturday's Bucknell/Lafayette bball semifinal. That would have created a Lafayette/Lehigh final for the PL championship, as it should be in all sports, every year. The rest of you schools know full well that you're simply window dressing; nothing but a vehicle by which the Lafayette Valley schools advance to Patriot League glory and athletic immortality.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Not if they were in the Patriot League. You have said yourself, DFW, that Lafayette/Lehigh is the only thing that matters in the PL, and I stand firmly behind your sentiments.

It was a mistake, BTW, for the League not to put the fix in on Saturday's Bucknell/Lafayette bball semifinal. That would have created a Lafayette/Lehigh final for the PL championship, as it should be in all sports, every year. The rest of you schools know full well that you're simply window dressing; nothing but a vehicle by which the Lafayette Valley schools advance to Patriot League glory and athletic immortality.

Now now, Bogie. You do remember that we have to let Bucknell win in basketball and Colgate to win in football a few times to make it seem like it's a fair shake for everyone, right?

As for Holy Cross, I believe they could have been in the Big East, so they don't get a break. :D

[grayghost06]

Are you trying to bait Citdog into ten more pages of posts? VMI/Citadel is just as fierce a rivalry to these alumni as Leh/Laf is to its alumni.

I used to think that too, but the attendance figures don't back that up. Out of 6 home games for the Citadel last year, the VMI game was the lowest attended. The Lehigh - Lafayette game is always the highest attended home game for either school. Maybe the luster is gone since VMI has been down so long, left the SoCon or just because they hadn't been playing every year recently.

[DFW HOYA]

The VMI game drew 11,184, versus 12,099 vs. Jacksonville, 13,414 vs. Furman, 12,316 vs. Wofford, 14,154 vs. ASU, and 13,591 vs. Samford. It likely didn't draw the crowd from VMI it once did.

Leh/Laf is a big, big deal in Central PA because the schools are so close. VMI and the Citadel are 450 miles apart, and a 1-6 VMI team isn't always worth an eight hour drive to some fans. If Lafayette's sworn rival was 450 miles away and wasn't always a winning program, (say, Duke), would it sell out each and every year?

If Washington & Lee had stayed in D-I and played VMI every year, now that's a neighborhood rivalry...

[RichH2]

Amazed to find VMI still on topic. Usually by now thread would have movedon to totally unrelated subjects. Makes me wonder if there might be some legs to this speculation?

[Go...gate]

Even without a southern footprint for the Patriot League? Have you looked at a map? One of the unwritten rules for this League is that no one gets on a plane for a League game. And if you're talking all sports, just picture some of the Holy Cross - or Colgate - Olympic sports teams heading for SC.

Maybe that's Lehigh and Lafayette's unwritten rule, but not Colgate's. We have traveled south in many sports for years.

[Go...gate]

Amazed to find VMI still on topic. Usually by now thread would have movedon to totally unrelated subjects. Makes me wonder if there might be some legs to this speculation?

I thought it was a worthy topic when I put it up. This Richmond/W&M/Villanova nonsense is just that.

[MplsBison]

Are VMI and Citidel for kids who want a West Point style education without having to make a commitment to serve in our nation's armed forces? Or what is the point?

[RichH2]

I thought it was a worthy topic when I put it up. This Richmond/W&M/Villanova nonsense is just that.

Well. I wont say nonsense but rather premature and depending on landscape 3-4 yrs from now relevant or not. Never considered either as a prospect, altho VMI was trying a few yrs back. Would not mind having either join PL. Homecoming for Kevin which would be nice.

[kdinva]

Are VMI and Citadel for kids who want a West Point style education without having to make a commitment to serve in our nation's armed forces? Or what is the point?

About 60% of VMI grads do go into the military, even if just for one "term" of 4 years. Some do join the Reserves for a while, others right into Civilian life. The VMI Supe. wants commissions to get to 70% later this decade.

[van]

Maybe that's Lehigh and Lafayette's unwritten rule, but not Colgate's. We have traveled south in many sports for years.

Well if you travel north you need to speak French! ;)

[grayghost06]

The VMI game drew 11,184, versus 12,099 vs. Jacksonville, 13,414 vs. Furman, 12,316 vs. Wofford, 14,154 vs. ASU, and 13,591 vs. Samford. It likely didn't draw the crowd from VMI it once did.

Leh/Laf is a big, big deal in Central PA because the schools are so close. VMI and the Citadel are 450 miles apart, and a 1-6 VMI team isn't always worth an eight hour drive to some fans. If Lafayette's sworn rival was 450 miles away and wasn't always a winning program, (say, Duke), would it sell out each and every year?

If Washington & Lee had stayed in D-I and played VMI every year, now that's a neighborhood rivalry...Good pull DFW. Not a lot of people know that W&L used to play big boy football ( till 1953 when yhey dropped it due to scandal). And even though they were located in the same town as VMI, they didn't play each other after 1902. W&L also holds the distinction of having the most copied fight song ever- The Washington & Lee Swing. It's been used by many universities, colleges, high schools, summer camps and even the official song of the 1924 election for the Republican candidiate. Here it is and I'm sure most of you have heard it before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyoXfp55rX8
Pretty neat for a small Div III school.


As far as the VMI rivalry goes, we older Virginians know the VMI- Citadel rivalry is really only a newer rivalry in the grand scheme of things. They have played 67 times, primarily since WWII and its a fairly even 30-35-2.

VMI's historical rival used to be Virginia Tech. VMI and VPI (called Virginia Tech since 1970) played almost every year from 1894-1984. The game was a neutral site affair through 1971- usually in Roanoke and was played on Thanksgiving Day. After 1971, the games alternated between Tech and a neutral site like Norfolk or Richmond. The two schools were only 80 miles apart and they were both military schools at their origin. Va.Tech still has a Corps of Cadets of almost 1000, but did away with the mandatory 2 year military requirement in the early 60's thus allowing incoming students a choice of civilian or cadet instruction. Prior to the mid 20s, Va Tech had a mandatory 4 years of military training. It was THE rivalry in Virginia at one time, with full hotels, lavish banquets, military parades, full corps attendance , great rivalry pranks and packed stadiums. And it was called The Military Classic of the South- well before the second incarnation of that name.

Sadly, the rivalry has faded away. When segregation at colleges was declared unconstitutional in the 50s, Va Tech grew to 5 times VMIs size. With mandatory military service no longer required in the mid 60s, new female enrollment helped Tech grow to 10 times VMIs size. Following that, the Vietnam War made public sentiment towards the smaller military colleges less appealing while Tech continued to grow. They are roughly 15 times larger in terms of enrollment now. The final nail occurred when VMI was re-classified as I-AA for the 1982 season.

Even though the final tally stands with Va Tech leading 49-25-2, it was at one time one heck of a rivalry. It had it all: similar heritage, close proximity, neutral site game with tons of paegentry. It just got to the point where the Keydets couldn't compete.

[Go...gate]

Well if you travel north you need to speak French! ;)

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way and we should add McGill or the Royal Military Academy..... : )

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Patriot League knows all about used-to-be-huge rivalries with what are now big BCS schools. We have quite a list.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Maybe we're going about this the wrong way and we should add McGill or the Royal Military Academy..... : )

I'm not letting go of the McGill idea . . . .

[grayghost06]

Yeah, I guess so. Holy Cross-BC and Colgate-Syracuse used to be each others main rivals correct?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Yeah, I guess so. Holy Cross-BC and Colgate-Syracuse used to be each others main rivals correct?

Plus Bucknell-Penn State and Lafayette-Rutgers, the latter of which is one of the very oldest rivalries.

[Bill]

Plus Bucknell-Penn State and Lafayette-Rutgers, the latter of which is one of the very oldest rivalries.

Bucknell - Penn State is a bit of a stretch...the last time that game was played was 1948!!

[ngineer]

Good pull DFW. Not a lot of people know that W&L used to play big boy football ( till 1953 when yhey dropped it due to scandal). And even though they were located in the same town as VMI, they didn't play each other after 1902. W&L also holds the distinction of having the most copied fight song ever- The Washington & Lee Swing. It's been used by many universities, colleges, high schools, summer camps and even the official song of the 1924 election for the Republican candidiate. Here it is and I'm sure most of you have heard it before. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyoXfp55rX8
Pretty neat for a small Div III school.


As far as the VMI rivalry goes, we older Virginians know the VMI- Citadel rivalry is really only a newer rivalry in the grand scheme of things. They have played 67 times, primarily since WWII and its a fairly even 30-35-2.

VMI's historical rival used to be Virginia Tech. VMI and VPI (called Virginia Tech since 1970) played almost every year from 1894-1984. The game was a neutral site affair through 1971- usually in Roanoke and was played on Thanksgiving Day. After 1971, the games alternated between Tech and a neutral site like Norfolk or Richmond. The two schools were only 80 miles apart and they were both military schools at their origin. Va.Tech still has a Corps of Cadets of almost 1000, but did away with the mandatory 2 year military requirement in the early 60's thus allowing incoming students a choice of civilian or cadet instruction. Prior to the mid 20s, Va Tech had a mandatory 4 years of military training. It was THE rivalry in Virginia at one time, with full hotels, lavish banquets, military parades, full corps attendance , great rivalry pranks and packed stadiums. And it was called The Military Classic of the South- well before the second incarnation of that name.

Sadly, the rivalry has faded away. When segregation at colleges was declared unconstitutional in the 50s, Va Tech grew to 5 times VMIs size. With mandatory military service no longer required in the mid 60s, new female enrollment helped Tech grow to 10 times VMIs size. Following that, the Vietnam War made public sentiment towards the smaller military colleges less appealing while Tech continued to grow. They are roughly 15 times larger in terms of enrollment now. The final nail occurred when VMI was re-classified as I-AA for the 1982 season.

Even though the final tally stands with Va Tech leading 49-25-2, it was at one time one heck of a rivalry. It had it all: similar heritage, close proximity, neutral site game with tons of paegentry. It just got to the point where the Keydets couldn't compete.

Yes, my high school used this song as our 'signature' fight song, just renamed it the "Roberts High Swing"...."And we'll role ol' Pottstown in the mud, in the mud, rah, rah, rah!"

[ngineer]

Bucknell - Penn State is a bit of a stretch...the last time that game was played was 1948!!

Lehigh could give Penn State a chance at redemption from their worst loss in history, 106-0 in 1889. When a touchdown was worth 4 points. (;-)

[Go...gate]

Plus Bucknell-Penn State and Lafayette-Rutgers, the latter of which is one of the very oldest rivalries.

Yep. Wasn't Lafayette something like the fourth or fifth school to have football? (Rutgers, Princeton and Columbia being the first three)

Of course, our pals in Cambridge like to celebrate "The Real Football Centennial"..... : )

[carney2]

Maybe that's Lehigh and Lafayette's unwritten rule, but not Colgate's. We have traveled south in many sports for years.

But not for LEAGUE games.

[carney2]

Are VMI and Citidel for kids who want a West Point style education without having to make a commitment to serve in our nation's armed forces? Or what is the point?

I have no idea what the attraction at VMI is, but at The Citadel it used to be (still is?) where parents with a few bucks sent their problem children. The theory was that military type discipline and a DI (Drill Instructor) screaming in their face would straighten them out. The grads that I know have done just fine in life, but weren't "straightened out" very much. Hell raisers all.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

The only direction to go from Hamilton is south and stay within the NCAA. McGill would be fine by me, too. Easton and Bethlehem are not Central PA. Hitchhike home a few times, Lewisburg to Hartford, at break, like I did a few times and the Delaware River seems like halfway home.

[Go...gate]

Well. I wont say nonsense but rather premature and depending on landscape 3-4 yrs from now relevant or not. Never considered either as a prospect, altho VMI was trying a few yrs back. Would not mind having either join PL. Homecoming for Kevin which would be nice.

With the Big East now willing to offer financial assistance to Villanova to at least explore coming in for football, I cannot see VU not making the move.

[Tribe4SF]

With the Big East now willing to offer financial assistance to Villanova to at least explore coming in for football, I cannot see VU not making the move.

What's changed for Nova? They still need a stadium, and the Big East isn't going to risk unrest among its football members by accepting a plan that doesn't measure up to BCS standards. Nova lacks even a marginally acceptable football fanbase, and any move to build a significant stadium without prospects of drawing good crowds is a non-starter from a marketing standpoint. If the Big East is willing to risk its BCS status, then Nova becomes a no-brainer, but I doubt that's their intention.

[RichH2]

Well Nova has 3 more years to decide

[Tribe4SF]

Nova already decided. It's the Big East that has to change its mind.

[Go...gate]

Since LFN has newly raised this issue on his blog....