What Makes A Winning Football Program Stay At The Top?

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Interesting topic came up over the weekend about coaches, players, winning tradition etc.

People always want to give Belichick the kudos for having a solid winning football team it seems year after year.....but is it really that simple?

I love Belichick, the way he coaches, the calls he makes, the balls he has and especially the way he handles the media. But is it all him?

He does have one of the best QBs to ever play in the NFL helping and he seems to have an owner that gives him what he needs to succeed.

So what really goes into a winning program?

Is it the coach, the owner, the players, history or a combination of some or all of them?

The University of Montana has been a coaching carousel for the last decade and we seem to rarely miss a beat.....how can that be?

There have been great coaches that take over programs and run them into the ground, there have been no name guys take programs to heights never before reached and finally there have been guys like Urban Meyer that win where ever they coach and seem to make the program better than it ever has been.

So the ball is in your court.............what makes a winning, lasting, dynasty of a football program?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Leadership and Commitment

[RichH2]

For Lehigh , starts with HC and school commitment to success. All else follows

[chattownmocs]

You need some serious work on your polling skills. First of all this poll has the most predictable results ever. Let me guess. All of the above. Duh. How about asking the question is a much smarter way such as, "What is the top factor in keeping a program at the top." Then get rid of your bottom 3 choices.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Isnt every program committed to success?

SHSU excluded of course.........xcoffeex

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

And to think I almost added a disclaimer that Chattown shouldnt even think about voting or commenting.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

You need some serious work on your polling skills. First of all this poll has the most predictable results ever. Let me guess. All of the above. Duh. How about asking the question is a much smarter way such as, "What is the top factor in keeping a program at the top." Then get rid of your bottom 3 choices.



There is a reason I included that.............................you will find out at a later date and time

[WH49er]

Just win, baby. Everything else will follow.

[BEAR]

I think it's none of the above. Rather the answer is "he who controls the media, controls the winning or who's on top."

Example: The Arkansas Razorsnoots have been a very mediocre to horrible football program in the state of Arkansas.
In the down years, they reptetitiously refer to a national title they allegedly won in the 60s and use it to boost their program thus giving the false perception that they are on top.
During the up years, which are few and far between but have been a few more lately, they work their pig magic and control the media to leave out the successes of the other in-state universities. Included in this are 4 page spreads of pig wins and a one paragraph "story" of other teams victories in the statewide paper. The electronic media is consumed in the same way along with retail outlets. Total immersion of a slanted view of a program on top.

So the key isn't whether you win or not, it's how you are perceived that goes a long way making your program a success or putting you on top.

Heck, even Sam has National Runner-up t-shirts! Hey, they're on top!

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

Damn it.....I didnt factor in the SHSU runner ups shirts!

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Damn it.....I didnt factor in the SHSU runner ups shirts!

I wanted one of those so bad. I didn't pull the trigger when I had the chance.

[Twentysix]

I went with luck/pee in the butt.

However, I feel if this were really an option, underprivledged programs like UNI would have atleast one championship. xlolx

[F350KINGRANCH]

i got one i am wearing it right now

[TheRevSFA]

I wanted one of those so bad. I didn't pull the trigger when I had the chance.

If you go to Namibia, I'm sure you can find the "Sam Houston National Champions" shirt lying around....

[DFW HOYA]

In order:

1. Institutional Commitment
2. Coaching
3. Recruiting/Talent
4. Budget
5. Facilities

Everything else trails by comparison.

[citdog]

You need some serious work on your polling skills. First of all this poll has the most predictable results ever. Let me guess. All of the above. Duh. How about asking the question is a much smarter way such as, "What is the top factor in keeping a program at the top." Then get rid of your bottom 3 choices.


you need some serious work on your ****ing personality disorder.


pee in the butt

[Sam_Kats]

So much Sam Houston talk from Annie - I thereby declare her an Honorary Kat.

[asknoquarter21]

All of these things are tied to each other.

Coaching is where it starts

At some point you have to win. Then you can recruit better and get better facilities, thus setting a cap to how far you can fall.

[BisonFan02]

SPEED*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[asumike83]

1) Administration - Without that, you can very rarely get quality 2) coaching. With an administration behind the program and good coaches in place, you can then go out and get the best 3) recruits/talent.

Serious drop-off after that. I think that winning tradition and the money/facilities that come along with it are all byproducts of the three above.

[MarkyMark]

1. Fan Base

You can win the title and be a 1 and done team with a small amount of fan support but to consistently get results you need a fan base that is large, engaged and cares about winning.

I believe all of the other important elements like financial support, facilities, good players, media attention, good coaches ect. come from having an active fan base.

[Hammerhead]

The original post refers to the Tom Brady which is a good clue. It's all about evaluating talent and finding "one of the best QBs to ever play in the NFL" still available in the 6th round of the draft. The Pats seem to do better without other superstars like Randy Moss.

As for the FCS, I think it's about finding quality players who get overlooked by the FBS schools or would rather have a better chance of starting for 3 years vs riding the pine and hoping you'll get some serious playing time once the 3 studs at your position have graduated. Naturally, those players tend to sign with schools that have good facilities and a supportive fan base.

[bonarae]

In order:

1. Institutional Commitment
2. Coaching
3. Recruiting/Talent
4. Budget
5. Facilities

Everything else trails by comparison.

#1 is the main staying factor for schools maintaining football. Remember that some Division I universities have dropped football in the past 20-25 years because of lack of institutional support (e.g. Wichita State, Pacific, ETSU, Northeastern, Boston U, etc.)

But what about the Ivies? The athletic departments have the commitment but the administration (i.e. the Presidents) has maintained many strictures on the departments concerning football that were good many years ago but aren't now... (e.g. still no playoff participation by the champion, fear of scheduling OOC opponents that can beat on the Ivies easily [e.g. SoCon, Big Sky, MVFC], scrimmages between the 8 teams, etc.)

#2 can also be a factor in influencing #3. #4 and #5 do not contribute much but have some influence in the prior numbers.

[bonarae]

1. Fan Base

You can win the title and be a 1 and done team with a small amount of fan support but to consistently get results you need a fan base that is large, engaged and cares about winning.

I believe all of the other important elements like financial support, facilities, good players, media attention, good coaches ect. come from having an active fan base.

However, the fan base is all but a minor factor compared to institutional support. Remember the "Save (insert Catholic school name here) Football" or "Bring Back (insert California state university mascot name) here" programs haven't really been successful because of lack of institutional support on their end.

[ASU_Fanatic]

A dedicated coach that's gonna get the most out of every single player he has

/thread

[I-16Bandit]

If I was a Georgia State fan, I'd have to go with:

-- Media market
-- Having a big athletic budget
-- Playing in DA DOOOOME
-- Media market?
-- Having a "legendary coach"
-- Having the ability to steal laptops

Everything else in that list just makes too much sense. Like winning.

[seantaylor]

Administration is nowhere near the top if you consider GSU. We have had the worst AD in the country for about 15 years, and much as has tried, hasn't held us back from winning besides the 4 years where he hired two garbage coaches. Guy is basically a retard that loves good ole boys.

[MarkyMark]

However, the fan base is all but a minor factor compared to institutional support. Remember the "Save (insert Catholic school name here) Football" or "Bring Back (insert California state university mascot name) here" programs haven't really been successful because of lack of institutional support on their end.

The question concerns "What Makes a Winning Football Program Stay at The Top?" I don't know what relevance a "Let's save the football program" has in this discussion. Something went terribly wrong in those programs long before the fans made a final rally to keep football.

Here are the top 10 FCS Programs for attendance in 2010. Look at the names and count the National Championship Titles held by these teams. A great AD or Coach is very important but they all eventually leave if they are that good. Broad Fan support delivers money which gives you great facilities and competitive coaching salaries. Fans can also give you the 12th man advantage which will give you an extra win or two every season.

School Average 2010 Attendance
1. Appalachian St. 25,715
2. Montana 25,448
3. Jackson St 24,140
4. Old Dominion 19,782
5. Delaware 17,753
6. Ga. Southern 17,627
7. Jacksonville St. 17,330
8. Harvard 16,918
9. James Madison 16,597
10. North Dakota St. 15,944
11. Florida A&M 4 15,913
12. Youngstown St. 15,110
13. South Carolina St 14,862
14. Tennessee St. 14,861
15. Liberty 14,630

[Smitty]

WCU Point of View (The view from the losing side)

Coaching - Definitely, without a coach with a plan or a view, or a damn clue you are not going to win much

Players/Recruiting - While it is nice to have the top recruits with a good coaching team you can train people to be better. Example, Boise St.

Tradition/Winning - I think Tradition is more cosmetic than anything. We have tradition but it does not help with winning. All though if you win a lot like App St. you are expected to do well every year and if you don't it hurts you more

Money - Yes this helps out a lot

Facilities - Meh more for cosmetic. People say better facilities attract better players but it doesn't help Chattanooga finish a game

Administration - Yes, if your administration knows what they want and hold people responsible if they do not provide these results they can create a winning program

Various Combinations of the Above - Ball sack

All Of the Above - Waffles

[DFW HOYA]

Here are the top 10 FCS Programs for attendance in 2010. Look at the names and count the National Championship Titles held by these teams. .

Of the 15 you listed, eight have titles, seven do not. We cannot say, however, that attendance drives champions.

[MarkyMark]

.

Of the 15 you listed, eight have titles, seven do not. We cannot say, however, that attendance drives champions.

Good point but this list of top attendance figures contain 4 of the 5 teams with multiple FCS championships, Georgia Southern 6, Youngstown - 4, App. St. 3 and Montana with 2.

The only team that holds multiple championships that is not on that list is Eastern Kentucky with 2 titles.

[MR. CHICKEN]

16424......PLAYERS......GOTTAH HAVE GOOD PLAYERS.....WHIFF CHEMISTRY.....SENIOR LEADERSHIP.....LET US EXAMINE...NEW HAMPSHIRE....THINK IT'S DUH MAPLE SYRUP....ACCOUNTIN' FO' ALL DUH W'S....ON DUH WILDCATS RESUME.. xconfusedx.....UH STADIUM.....DAT WOOD MAKE UH LANDFILL...ENVIOUS...:o..UH FAN BASE....WHO'D RATHERAH.....HOVER..AT DUH GENERAL STORE......WHIFF GRUB HOOKS IN DUH PORK BARRELL......LOOK FO' DUH GRANITE...MOTHERAH-LODE.....O'......STORIN' DEY'RE NUTS..FO' WINTERAH......IT COMES DOWN TA PLAYERS......ALL DUH....X's & O's........JES'....LOVE AN' KISSES.....WHIFF-OUT PLAYERS........xnodx...AWK!

[DFW HOYA]

Good point but this list of top attendance figures contain 4 of the 5 teams with multiple FCS championships, Georgia Southern 6, Youngstown - 4, App. St. 3 and Montana with 2.

Except that in even number years, Yale jumps into the top 5 with its 50K+ vs. Harvard.

This is also a capacity issue. Villanova and Richmond could win multiple titles but they'll never be in the top 15 in attendance. In college basketball, UNC and Kentucky have multiple titles and strong attendance numbers, but Duke sits at 9,314 a game and never makes the top 25 in attendance.

[MarkyMark]

Except that in even number years, Yale jumps into the top 5 with its 50K+ vs. Harvard.

This is also a capacity issue. Villanova and Richmond could win multiple titles but they'll never be in the top 15 in attendance. In college basketball, UNC and Kentucky have multiple titles and strong attendance numbers, but Duke sits at 9,314 a game and never makes the top 25 in attendance.

I don't know how to analyze schools like Yale and Harvard since they are not eligible to compete for an NC.

I am a huge FCS football fan, I can't tell you if there is any relationship between attendance and basketball championships.

[asumike83]

This is also a capacity issue. Villanova and Richmond could win multiple titles but they'll never be in the top 15 in attendance. In college basketball, UNC and Kentucky have multiple titles and strong attendance numbers, but Duke sits at 9,314 a game and never makes the top 25 in attendance.

I think it is more indicative of the correlation between fan support and success rather than attendance necessarily. In that example, 9,314 is never going to make the top 25 but it is full capacity and Duke sells out every game.

I'm pretty sure there are no similar situations in the FCS where a team has a small stadium, sells out every game but never cracks the top 25 in attendance although I could be wrong. All the teams listed on the FCS attendance list sell out all their games or come very close to it, which makes a pretty compelling argument for fan support leading to success. Players want to play in front of good crowds and passionate fans force an administration to take care of their cash cow.

[Hammerhead]

11 out of 16 teams seeded 1 through 4 in each region of last year's men's bball tourney were ranked in the top 21 in average home attendance.
http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/ncaa/pdfs/2011/2011+ncaa+mens+basketball+attendance+full+report



I am a huge FCS football fan, I can't tell you if there is any relationship between attendance and basketball championships.

[Sam_Kats]

Now I see why no one has ever answered whether it's actually the chicken or the egg.

[chattownmocs]

you need some serious work on your ****ing personality disorder.


pee in the butt

http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2009/10/7/128994246507326935.jpg

[Silenoz]

Write-in:

Being located in Chattanooga, playing in the Mecca of FCS stadiums, recruiting Cam Newton Jr., etc.

[DFW HOYA]

I'm pretty sure there are no similar situations in the FCS where a team has a small stadium, sells out every game but never cracks the top 25 in attendance although I could be wrong.

Teams with avg. attendance of 100% or more of stadium capacity but not in top 10, 2011:

Central Arkansas: 10,535 per game, 8,500 capacity
Prairie View: 7,228 per game, 6,000 capacity
New Hampshire: 7,525 per game, 6,500 capacity
Georgetown: 2,568 per game, 2,400 capacity
Samford: 6,821 per game, 6,700 capacity
Richmond: 8,700 per game, 8,700 capacity

[Wilson16]

Continuity from the administration down to the coaching staff. You can lose parts here and there but the core needs to remain from year to year.

[bisonnation]

It's a combination of all...

1) money. sorry but money is huge
2) facilities. across the board, most top programs have good facilities
3) coaching. good teams keep their head coaches and assistant coaches
4) recruiting. good coaches recruit good players.

It all boils down to money because without money, you can't have good facilies, pay to keep your coaches. Recruiting is a trickle down from keeping coaches.

At the end of the day- all of the above lead to tradition.

I can say this. I'm an NDSU guy and when you have National Championships in the '60's, 80's, 90's, and '10's, your talking about a generation of fans that spans 60 years.

Tradition leads to high standards. Success happens when goals are high. Simply put, successful programs and the donors who have a vested interest will not accept mediocrity.

but it all starts with money.

[DFW HOYA]

It all boils down to money because without money, you can't have good facilies, pay to keep your coaches. Recruiting is a trickle down from keeping coaches. At the end of the day- all of the above lead to tradition.

Let's not confuse tradition with winning, though. Ole Miss football is knee-deep in tradition but they haven't seen the Sugar Bowl since Archie Manning's junior season. a school like Old Dominion is already a winning program but tradition takes time to build.

[bonarae]

Let's not confuse tradition with winning, though. Ole Miss football is knee-deep in tradition but they haven't seen the Sugar Bowl since Archie Manning's junior season. a school like Old Dominion is already a winning program but tradition takes time to build.

And the Ivy League, whose teams don't participate in the playoffs and haven't seen any postseason game as a team since the League was formalized, continues on with tradition. All teams have seen their down years as well as their up years.

[Professor Chaos]

Money and administration willing to invest in athletics. That leads to having better facilities and hiring/retaining good coachs. That leads to recruiting better players. That leads to a winning tradition.

You need everything but money and along a creative and confidant administration is the most important thing.

[Seawolf97]

It is a mix of many things. A good HC, facilities,investing in the program, building fan and adminstration support etc. etc. There are numerous other factors large and small. A big plus for StonyBrook was watching Hofstra fold their program. That may haunt them for a long time to come.

[ALPHAGRIZ1]

So basically most of us are on the same page here and agree to do the opposite of what the Mocs are doing.............xcoffeex


Good thread, great comments.

[SonuvaHenx2]

Continuity.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I am not a fan of this poll because the obvious choice is a combination of things, so we don't get a real look at where people's opinions may differ.

First, I look at the question, which asks about STAYING at the top. My gut reaction is facilities.

Facilities are the key to having the following:
1. Recruitment of good coaches
2. Recruitment of good talent
3. Bigger feel atmosphere / stronger home field advantage
4. In FCS, it impacts ability to host playoff games, which influences opportunity to remain a winning program
5. Supportive fan base - the school invests in the team, the fans will invest in the team

Once you are at the top, the most important thing is Keeping Up with the Jones. Yes, it takes money, but several schools squander resources. Great facilities are worth their weight in gold and then some. Ask any fan of JMU, App St., Montana, Delaware. I throw Delaware in there because they will be the first to tell you how much more dominant they could have been with increased investments in facilities instead of waiting for the JMUs and ODUs of the world to emerge in the CAA.

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

Ultimately, I think a better poll would be this:

What is more important to the longevity of success in FCS football?
A. Fixed Capital Investments
B. Human Capital Investments

That's a tricky "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of question.

[polsongrizz]

I'm thinking a nice pair of tube socks.

[Gil Dobie]

Darrell Mudra was involved in NDSU turning it around in the 1960's, and UNI in the 1980's. Coaching does have a lot, but you need an Admin behind the scenes, along with a willing fanbase.

[MarkCCU]

Money, inspirational coaching, money, great facilities, success, money.

[MarkCCU]

Ultimately, I think a better poll would be this:

What is more important to the longevity of success in FCS football?
A. Fixed Capital Investments
B. Human Capital Investments

That's a tricky "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of question.

If your religious, The chicken came first.

[Gil Dobie]

If your religious, The chicken came first.

The egg came first, dinosaurs laid eggs.............

[parr90]

I got to say coaching above all else because I played at GSU in the 80's and played on 2 NC teams and played for it 3 times. We had the same coach but our facilities werent anything to write home about at that point. We didnt care about that though. Obviously recruiting and players has alot to do with it too. GSU has always been able to get good talent, mainly because GSU is an attractive school and south Georgia is a hotbed of football as is Atlanta 3 or so hours north. GSU has seen some bad times too, not very much but some, and when it was bad it was pretty bad. I can sort of point to the coaches at the times we were not doing well, however the AD has alot to do with it too. There are many factors but most of all I think it is coaching and tradition.

[parr90]

Look at Bama. Why have they won so much over the last 80 years? One big reason. Everyone affiliated with UNiv of Alabama....from the janitor all the way up to the president of the school wants to win and win badly. The people that surround Alabama want to win and wont except losing. Thats why they win.

[DFW HOYA]

Look at Bama. Why have they won so much over the last 80 years? One big reason. Everyone affiliated with UNiv of Alabama....from the janitor all the way up to the president of the school wants to win and win badly. The people that surround Alabama want to win and wont except losing. Thats why they win.

Well, that too.

[alvinkayak6]

If your religious, The chicken came first.

Quote Originally Posted by JMU2K_DukeDawg View Post
Ultimately, I think a better poll would be this:

What is more important to the longevity of success in FCS football?
A. Fixed Capital Investments
B. Human Capital Investments

That's a tricky "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" kind of question.
If your religious, The chicken came first.

Fixed Capital....the FCS already has some great humans in it!

[bojeta]

#1 is the main staying factor for schools maintaining football. Remember that some Division I universities have dropped football in the past 20-25 years because of lack of institutional support (e.g. Wichita State, Pacific, ETSU, Northeastern, Boston U, etc.)

But what about the Ivies? The athletic departments have the commitment but the administration (i.e. the Presidents) has maintained many strictures on the departments concerning football that were good many years ago but aren't now... (e.g. still no playoff participation by the champion, fear of scheduling OOC opponents that can beat on the Ivies easily [e.g. SoCon, Big Sky, MVFC], scrimmages between the 8 teams, etc.)

#2 can also be a factor in influencing #3. #4 and #5 do not contribute much but have some influence in the prior numbers.

Agreed, but, I'm happy to say, Yale is coming to Cal Poly in 2013 for a Big Sky game. Really wish the Ivies would fully join the FCS structure. Otherwise, what's the point of calling it an FCS program? Play 11 (12 starting 2013) regular season games, play tough OOC games including FBS opponents, and participate in the Playoffs!

[NIU007]

I think it's none of the above. Rather the answer is "he who controls the media, controls the winning or who's on top."

Example: The Arkansas Razorsnoots have been a very mediocre to horrible football program in the state of Arkansas.
In the down years, they reptetitiously refer to a national title they allegedly won in the 60s and use it to boost their program thus giving the false perception that they are on top.
During the up years, which are few and far between but have been a few more lately, they work their pig magic and control the media to leave out the successes of the other in-state universities. Included in this are 4 page spreads of pig wins and a one paragraph "story" of other teams victories in the statewide paper. The electronic media is consumed in the same way along with retail outlets. Total immersion of a slanted view of a program on top.

So the key isn't whether you win or not, it's how you are perceived that goes a long way making your program a success or putting you on top.

Heck, even Sam has National Runner-up t-shirts! Hey, they're on top!

This factor should be added to the poll, it's huge. Lots of schools struggle with the virtual monopoly that the AQ schools have on the media outlets.

[whoanellie]

only with the purpose of "commitment to Excellence"

[Screamin_Eagle174]

1) Administration - Without that, you can very rarely get quality 2) coaching. With an administration behind the program and good coaches in place, you can then go out and get the best 3) recruits/talent.

Serious drop-off after that. I think that winning tradition and the money/facilities that come along with it are all byproducts of the three above.

THIS.

[Screamin_Eagle174]

The question concerns "What Makes a Winning Football Program Stay at The Top?" I don't know what relevance a "Let's save the football program" has in this discussion. Something went terribly wrong in those programs long before the fans made a final rally to keep football.

Here are the top 10 FCS Programs for attendance in 2010. Look at the names and count the National Championship Titles held by these teams. A great AD or Coach is very important but they all eventually leave if they are that good. Broad Fan support delivers money which gives you great facilities and competitive coaching salaries. Fans can also give you the 12th man advantage which will give you an extra win or two every season.

School Average 2010 Attendance
1. Appalachian St. 25,715
2. Montana 25,448
3. Jackson St 24,140
4. Old Dominion 19,782
5. Delaware 17,753
6. Ga. Southern 17,627
7. Jacksonville St. 17,330
8. Harvard 16,918
9. James Madison 16,597
10. North Dakota St. 15,944
11. Florida A&M 4 15,913
12. Youngstown St. 15,110
13. South Carolina St 14,862
14. Tennessee St. 14,861
15. Liberty 14,630

That does not establish causality. In a lot of those cases, the Administrative support and great coaching generates wins, which generates fan base which generates facilities which generates more fanbase. It's a snowball effect, and the Administrative support and a great coaching staff is compact needed to get it rolling and building.

[BisonHype!]

Sam Houston State Championship Gear- Possibly as bad of a investment decision as it gets...

[Twentysix]

Wolf sweatshirts. You wanna win NC's get your *** to the game sporting this:

http://www.wolfshirts.net/usrimage/13026hl2.jpg

[Professor Chaos]

Wolf sweatshirts. You wanna win NC's get your *** to the game sporting this:

http://www.wolfshirts.net/usrimage/13026hl2.jpg
Giving a 3 wolf moon shirt to an NDSU fan is like giving a machete to a ninja....

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

I'm thinking a nice pair of tube socks.

Something tells me you always think in pairs my friend... Every one of your posts hypnotizes me. Argh! Another minute lost staring at animated gif boobs!