Is the THE Patriot League announcement? I mean THE ONE?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is something coming today?

xeyebrowx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Huh? xconfusedx

[RichH2]

Huh,why? Did they vote? Fait accompli and Robert's Rules dont always , if ever, coincide. Issomething scheduled for today or are you just bored?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Ohh noo...here we go....

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think LFN might have discovered carney2's cache of aged bourbon.

[Pard4Life]

LFN is just looking for attention and trying to attract traffic to his blog... just like his concocted rumor of a Yankee Stadium game last spring. Move along... Move along..

[Go...gate]

The 150th game will be played at Andy Kerr Stadium.

[RichH2]

I think LFN might have discovered carney2's cache of aged bourbon.

Carney's bourbon never sticks around long enuf to get "aged"

[RichH2]

iF JUST MORE SMOKE AND MIRRORS, a rather cruel hoax

[Bogus Megapardus]

The 150th game will be played at Andy Kerr Stadium.

xlolxxrotatehxxnodx

[Go...gate]

Carolyn Femovich has been replaced by MplsBison as Commissioner?

[RichH2]

Carolyn Femovich has been replaced by MplsBison as Commissioner?

Oh ,my a stroke of genius xnodx. Movefrom Centre Valley to Fargo. Play LU-LC game in the Dome. Yup that's the ticket

[Go...gate]

There is actually some notice on the PL website about a significant football announcement today.

I GOT IT! Fordham will announce that if the PL goes to football scholarships, it will leave, as FU has already established that they don't work. : )

[RichH2]

Found same news LoRe noted an important news announcement about football at 4 pm today.

[DJKyR0]

Carolyn Femovich has been replaced by MplsBison as Commissioner?

Personally I think it's genius. It's like when Vince McMahon ran the XFL - they tried to pass it off as a legit product but it was clearly a ploy at being outrageous from the get-go. Despite the fact that the XFL tanked after its first season, I still feel like there's a successful business model in there somewhere that the PL could apply.

God only knows what would happen if MplsBison wound up in charge of a football conference.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting. I may need to tune in.

[Pard4Life]

They are announcing a new league television deal with Verizon FIOS!

[RichH2]

Guess, either a new member or schollie implemention . Actually will be surprised if its either. New TV deal unlikely with new deal with CBS.

I got it. A private consultant has been hired to further study the impact of merit aid in PL on Climate change

[Bogus Megapardus]

Carolyn Femovich has been replaced by MplsBison as Commissioner?

This makes sense only becasue the long-time commissioner of the Missouri Valley Conference, Doug Elgin, is a Lafayette graduate and former Pard football player.

[LUHawker]

Here is the tweet from the PL: (link below0
PatriotLeague Patriot League
The Patriot League will have a significant football announcement at 4 p.m. today


http://twitter.com/intent/user?screen_name=PatriotLeague

I guess we'll find out today what the Pl considers "significant". I am hopeful, but not necessarily sold that the league's concept of significant is what many of us would consider signficant.

I assume that this is THE announcement about schollies. If they really were only going to stick to the status quo, I doubt they would tout it as "significant".

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Personally I think it's genius. It's like when Vince McMahon ran the XFL...

Will Mpls be designing the cheerleaders' uniforms himself?

[PLfan]

Lehigh Valley Live is reporting announcement regarding scholarships at 4:00pm.
Let's Hope it's for real this time!

[RichH2]

Express_Times reporting news conference is Pres Weiss of LC as to football scholarships.

[van]

OK, I gotta get in on this too.

PL announcing that they will eschew playoffs in the future to be more like Ivy?

[DFW HOYA]

"There will be a "significant" league football announcement at 4 o'clock this afternoon made by Lafayette College President Daniel H. Weiss, chair of the league Council of Presidents, College of the Holy Cross Athletic Director Richard M. Regan Jr., chair of the league Committee on Athletic Administration and league Executive Director Carolyn Schlie Femovich, league Director of Media Relations Matt Dougherty wrote today in an email."

Or as they're now calling it, the Patriot-6.

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/sports/index.ssf/2012/02/patriot_league_to_have_signifi.html

[Bogus Megapardus]

I got it! Georgetown will become a full member of the PL, beginning in 2013. Basketball will play its home games in the gym at the Convent and Girl's Academy of the Visitation, right there on 35th and P Streets.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I wonder if PL scholarship issues will dominate AGS today.

That'd be a first, huh?

[DJKyR0]

Will Mpls be designing the cheerleaders' uniforms himself?

The best part is that we have no idea. The straight-up having of no idea is why this is such a delicious possibility.

[RichH2]

I wonder if PL scholarship issues will dominate AGS today.

That'd be a first, huh?

Gee, you know I cant recall any real discussion on this rather mundane topic. We should get back to our talks on the upcoming poetryfest.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Or as they're now calling it, the Patriot-6.


I understand that John DeGioia will be there too, to announce that Georgetown henceforth will play football a step down from one level below 1-AA, whatever that is.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Probably not worth tuning in for, huh? :D

[RichH2]

The best part is that we have no idea. The straight-up having of no idea is why this is such a delicious possibility.

I fear his respone would be "We dont need no uniforms" Bloomers must be banned

[RichH2]

Probably not worth tuning in for, huh? :D


OK wiseass you had me at scholarshipsxprayxxthumbsupx

[Bogus Megapardus]

More breaking news . . . . the PL Academic Index requirements will be radically decreased - all the way down to Penn standards.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

OK wiseass you had me at scholarshipsxprayxxthumbsupx

xlolx Keep in mind, it still all could be, as P4L has claimed, that it's all a ploy for more LFN traffic. xlolx

[RichH2]

More breaking news . . . . the PL Academic Index requirements will be radically decreased - all the way down to Penn standards.

C'mon get serious none of us has a big enuf endowment to go that low.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Perhaps its:

"The institutions from the Pioneer Football Conference and the Patriot League are dissolving both leagues to create their own conference, college football industry sources said.

'In order to stay relevant in this world of superconferences, we decided to pool our resources to form a seventeen-team non-scholarship superconference', anonymous sources said. 'It's the only way we can continue scheduling the Ivy League out-of-confernence.'"

[Bogus Megapardus]

EASTON, PA - Daniel Weiss, president of Lafayette College, today announced that Lehigh University and Colgate University, both members of the Patriot League, will begin awarding athletic aid in football in 2013 . . .

[Ken_Z]

http://www.bucknell.edu/x74820.xml

[RichH2]

EASTON, PA - Daniel Weiss, president of Lafayette College, today announced that Lehigh University and Colgate University, both members of the Patriot League, will begin awarding athletic aid in football in 2013 . . .

More Carney than the MAN himself. How about PL will add 5 scholarships every third year starting 3 yrs from now.

[DFW HOYA]

From the Bucknell link above:

"that there will be a decisive majority vote to permit football scholarships."

Which is Bison-speak for: "Of course, 6-1 is not unanimous."

[RichH2]

http://www.bucknell.edu/x74820.xml

I continue to be jealous of Bison communication. I would love if Lehigh followed suit. Nice confirmation of status. I sincerely hope his prediction of solid majority in favor is correct. Thanks Z for posting link

[Bogus Megapardus]

http://www.bucknell.edu/x74820.xml

That's been up on Bucknell's for more than a week and we didn't know? You've been holding out on us.

Does "three to five" scholarships mean that there will be a 20 scholarship limit? Will teams reach equivalency through additional need-based aid?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I continue to be jealous of Bison communication.

+1

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As most of you know, at Bucknell we currently award some form of merit aid to student-athletes in 10 of our 27 Division I sports: men’s and women’s basketball, men’s and women’s lacrosse, men’s and women’s soccer, men’s and women’s swimming, women’s cross country, and wrestling. If we add the equivalent of three to five merit-aid scholarships that we project would meet the new roster guidelines, we are confident that this increased cost would be recouped in part through Bowl Championship Series-related revenues that would be available if we provide merit-aid scholarships in football.

Whuh... whuh... huh?

[Bogus Megapardus]

From the Bucknell link above:

"that there will be a decisive majority vote to permit football scholarships."

Which is Bison-speak for: "Of course, 6-1 is not unanimous."

Ten teams in total vote. "Decisive" means that Army and Navy voted yes, I would think.

[RichH2]

Doubt a 20 schollie limit . Seems he is referring to initial startup cost. At least I hope so. 20 schollies better than none but will do very little to improve PL football. And certainly would be disappointing after all the time and effort on this issue

[RichH2]

Whuh... whuh... huh?

Makes sense, schedule some $$$ games. Just because PL approves schollies does not seem to require allto actually give them

[Bogus Megapardus]

Whuh... whuh... huh?

What Dr. Bravman is saying is that a PL team will win the FCS championship every year from now on forward, and the PL will reap a tidy fortune in merchandising revenues as a result. Sheesh, that was obvious even to me.

[Ken_Z]

That's been up on Bucknell's for more than a week and we didn't know? You've been holding out on us.

Does "three to five" scholarships mean that there will be a 20 scholarship limit? Will teams reach equivalency through additional need-based aid?

no, the original communication was sent out on the 2nd, but not posted into the public domain until this afternoon.

don't know how to interpret the numbers yet, could be Bucknell specific as to amount of increase from current need budget.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Doubt a 20 schollie limit . Seems he is referring to initial startup cost. At least I hope so. 20 schollies better than none but will do very little to improve PL football. And certainly would be disappointing after all the time and effort on this issue

I hope you're' correct. Either give 60 or don't bother. Don't do it half-aresed, though.

[LUHawker]

no, the original communication was sent out on the 2nd, but not posted into the public domain until this afternoon.

don't know how to interpret the numbers yet, could be Bucknell specific as to amount of increase from current need budget.

Seems to be Bucknell specfic and referring to incremental costs/schollies, not total.

[RichH2]

We should not forget that for some PL members, each scholarship added must be accompanied by another for women

[bison137]

That's been up on Bucknell's for more than a week and we didn't know? You've been holding out on us.

Does "three to five" scholarships mean that there will be a 20 scholarship limit? Will teams reach equivalency through additional need-based aid?


I don't think so. He says "for Bucknell, making that change in our financial aid allocation to football would be roughly equivalent to 3-5 additional scholarships per year". I think he means 3-5 more than the football-related aid already given - which for Bucknell has likely been in the low-to-mid 40's.

[van]

no, the original communication was sent out on the 2nd, but not posted into the public domain until this afternoon.

don't know how to interpret the numbers yet, could be Bucknell specific as to amount of increase from current need budget.

3 -5 additional per year, sounds like the number would be 3 -5 above Buffs current equivalencies. Not sure what that is.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think so. He says "for Bucknell, making that change in our financial aid allocation to football would be roughly equivalent to 3-5 additional scholarships per year". I think he means 3-5 more than the football-related aid already given - which for Bucknell has likely been in the low-to-mid 40's.


OK, that makes sense, then. 20 additional scholarships to get up to about 60 equivalencies.

[RichH2]

OK, that makes sense, then. 20 additional scholarships to get up to about 60 equivalencies.

Ok , understand it now. $$$ games to pay for addtional aid to get up to counter status. What about LU and Gate that are already at counter status,I wonder?

[van]

Does anyone think it ironic that KenZ scoops everyone here.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Does anyone think it ironic that KenZ scoops everyone here.

No fair. He knew just where to look.

[Ken_Z]

Does anyone think it ironic that KenZ scoops everyone here.

? why would you ask that? has Carney brainwashed you against me?

[Go...gate]

EASTON, PA - Daniel Weiss, president of Lafayette College, today announced that Lehigh University and Colgate University, both members of the Patriot League, will begin awarding athletic aid in football in 2013 . . .

....and that American University will be fielding a football team beginning in 2015. American has agreed to finish the Multi-Sport Field at Georgetown University and will play home games on an alternating basis there. Georgetown has agreed to allow American football to share Georgetown's football television facilities... : )

[Bogus Megapardus]

The system wouldn't let me give more rep points to Ken_Z for breaking the "official" news. Somebody else please do it.

[Pard4Life]

....and that American University will be fielding a football team beginning in 2015. American has agreed to finish the Multi-Sport Field at Georgetown University and will play home games on an alternating basis there. Georgetown has agreed to allow American football to share Georgetown's football television facilities... : )

Arthur Rothkopf, a current University trustee and former President of Patriot League member Lafayette College, will serve as interim head coach until a permanent replacement is found.

[carney2]

We wait with bated - not bourbon - breath. Speaking of bourbon, I take umbrage - extreme umbrage - to having my medicinal needs discussed in public. Have you, by the way, tried Jim Beam's latest creation, Devil's Cut? It is to die for.

[RichH2]

The system wouldn't let me give more rep points to Ken_Z for breaking the "official" news. Somebody else please do it.

tried wouldn't letmedo it either

[RichH2]

We wait with bated - not bourbon - breath. Speaking of bourbon, I take umbrage - extreme umbrage - to having my medicinal needs discussed in public. Have you, by the way, tried Jim Beam's latest creation, Devil's Cut? It is to die for.

Quite tasty and I am a Jameson man myself

[Go...gate]

We wait with bated - not bourbon - breath. Speaking of bourbon, I take umbrage - extreme umbrage - to having my medicinal needs discussed in public. Have you, by the way, tried Jim Beam's latest creation, Devil's Cut? It is to die for.

Like Beam but have not tried that mix. Really good, eh?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I take umbrage

Do you take your umbrage straight up, or on the rocks?

[DFW HOYA]

"If we add the equivalent of three to five merit-aid scholarships that we project would meet the new roster guidelines, we are confident that this increased cost would be recouped in part through Bowl Championship Series-related revenues that would be available if we provide merit-aid scholarships in football."

Whuh... whuh... huh?

Each year the BCS allocates about $1.8 million of revenues as a combined transfer payment for the nine I-AA/FCS conferences that maintain a 57+ grant status for its schools.

Not sure if the Patriot would qualify for it, but there's approx. $180K avail. if they do, but I'm not sure how it would be allocated across all teams or just six.

[van]

Each year the BCS allocates about $1.8 million of revenues as a combined transfer payment for the nine I-AA/FCS conferences that maintain a 57+ grant status for its schools.

Not sure if the Patriot would qualify for it, but there's approx. $180K avail. if they do, but I'm not sure how it would be allocated across all teams or just six.

Hoyas would certainly not take a share if they did not play, would they?

[carney2]

Do you take your umbrage straight up, or on the rocks?

Always on the rocks. Up always comes in some sort of delicate container that leads to waste and spillage.

[RichH2]

Anybody else hear a giant TICK TOCK from the clock on the wall as the time winds down to 4:00 PM.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Don't know what the Hoyas will do. Ivy is way more "full scholarship" than the Patriot will ever be (even if expansion were on the table, which it is not and never will be), NEC already allows 40 scholarships, and the Hoyas don't relish Pioneer road trips to Jacksonville and Morehead State.

Oddly, Georgetown is the one institution in PL football that is the least "philosophically" opposed to athletic scholarships. It just doesn't have the resources, what with living in that expensive, litigious neighborhood and all.

[carney2]

And to think that, if true, the Ivies had the news before any of us.

[carney2]

They beat the clock. the announcement is up:

http://www.patriotleague.org/sports/m-footbl/spec-rel/021312aac.html

[RichH2]

Ofcourse a vassal must report to his Lord and Masterxrolleyesx

[Bogus Megapardus]

Center Valley, Pa. - The Patriot League Council of Presidents endorsed a policy that will allow athletic merit aid for the sport of football, beginning with the class entering school in the fall of 2013, it was announced Monday.

"The Council of Presidents' decision to adjust the current need-based model of financial aid in football, which has been in effect since the founding of the League in 1986, comes after extensive study and discussion of alternative models and a thorough evaluation of the benefits and potential costs associated with athletic merit aid in the sport. The decision reflects the Presidents' shared vision and shared commitment to the stability and long-term positioning of the League and to its strength, competitiveness and quality," said Daniel H. Weiss, Chair of the Patriot League Council of Presidents and President of Lafayette College.

"This approach for awarding athletic merit aid to football student-athletes will allow our member schools flexibility to determine the most effective use of their financial aid resources to attract highly-qualified Division I scholar-athletes in a very competitive academic and athletic marketplace," said Patriot League Executive Director Carolyn Schlie Femovich. "The introduction of this financial aid model for football will strengthen the Patriot League's ability to compete for outstanding student-athletes while continuing to uphold the high academic standards of the League and its member institutions."

Starting with the class entering school in the fall of 2013, each school will be permitted to award no more than the equivalent of 15 athletic financial aid awards each year to incoming football student-athletes, including transfer student-athletes. The total amount of all countable financial aid awarded to all football student-athletes may not exceed 60 equivalencies in any year.

Currently, it is permissible for Patriot League institutions to offer athletic and academic merit aid to student-athletes in the League's other 22 sports. However, it is an institutional decision regarding the amount and sports for which athletic aid is made available. Since its inception in 1986, Patriot League football was considered a separate entity and had maintained a need-limited approach with financial aid. With the permissive aid approach, institutions will now be able to determine the most effective way to award financial aid in football.

The recently completed 2011 football season marked the 25th anniversary campaign for Patriot League football and its programs have successfully competed in the NCAA Football Championship Subdivision (FCS). The Patriot League has held an automatic qualifying berth into the NCAA tournament since 1997 and continues to meet the standards to be eligible.

Bucknell University, Colgate University, College of the Holy Cross, Lafayette College and Lehigh University are founding members of the Patriot League that sponsor football, while Fordham University and Georgetown University compete in football as associate members. The other full members of the League are American University, U.S. Military Academy and U.S. Naval Academy. These institutions are among the oldest and most prestigious academic institutions in the nation.

The Patriot League's member institutions consistently rank among the top Division I programs in the NCAA Graduation Rates Report and are recognized nationally for the effective integration of Division I athletics into the educational mission of the institution.

[RichH2]

Thank God. Isn't 60 such a lovely number

[DFW HOYA]

Thank God. Isn't 60 such a lovely number

For six schools, anyway.

[LUHawker]

Thank God. Isn't 60 such a lovely number

L-O-V-E I-T

[van]

So, I wonder if there is a potential PL member in waiting and that is why the decision was moved up to now? Don't think the presidents do anything early without some good motivation.

[RichH2]

So, I wonder if there is a potential PL member in waiting and that is why the decision was moved up to now? Don't think the presidents do anything early without some good motivation.

Good point why nowand not in June as originally plannedxeyebrowx

[Bogus Megapardus]

FAQ:



What factors encouraged the Presidents to make this decision on football financial aid?

• Objective was to reach a decision for the best interests of the League
• Stability of the League and strengthening its future
• Positioning the League to expand its membership with attractive institutions
• Consistent with League’s permissive policy for all other 22 League sports

With the adoption of a permissive financial aid policy for football, will the League’s admission requirements be changed in any way?

No. However, we believe that the opportunity to award athletic grant-in-aid will enhance the pool of highly qualified football student-athletes for League institutions. The League’s commitment to high academic standards will continue to be a hallmark of the League and we expect that our graduation rates for football and other sports will remain among the top in the country. Patriot League institutions believe as strongly as ever that the academic and athletic values can be, and must be compatible.

Why is this new approach to financial aid for football not available until next year?

Given that schools are in the midst of a recruiting cycle, the implementation of this model for the class entering in the fall of 2013 allows each institution to develop their financial aid plan and for the coaching staffs to make appropriate adjustments to their recruiting strategies. [Note: This approach is similar to that used when basketball athletic merit aid was instituted. In December 1996, the League adopted a policy to permit athletic merit aid for men and women’s basketball beginning with the class that entered in the fall of 1998.]

Is there a limit on the amount of football financial merit aid a school is permitted to award each year?

To initiate this model of permissive aid, for the classes entering in the fall of 2013 and 2014, not more than 15 equivalencies per year of countable athletic aid or a total of 30 equivalencies over the two-year period shall be awarded to incoming football student-athletes, including transfers. At all times, the total amount of all financial aid awarded to all football student-athletes shall not exceed 60 equivalencies.

Will currently enrolled student-athletes be eligible to receive athletic merit aid?

No, only student-athletes who enroll beginning in the fall of 2013 will be eligible. Student- athletes already enrolled in a Patriot League institution will continue to be eligible to receive need-based athletic aid or academic merit aid.

What are the positive results that come from the decision to allow athletic merit aid for the sport of football?

There are numerous positive outcomes following this decision:

• Allows the League to maintain, and perhaps enhance, its academic profile with the recruitment of outstanding students who are also talented athletes
• Provides each institution the opportunity to control and manage their financial aid resources in a fiscally prudent manner

How does this impact Fordham’s status with the League, both short-term and long-term?

During this transition period, Fordham has continued to compete as a member of Patriot League football. Later this spring, a decision will be made regarding when they again will become eligible for the League championship and NCAA automatic qualifier slot. Fordham began offering athletic merit aid to football student-athletes with the class entering in the fall of 2010 and currently has two classes receiving athletic merit aid.

What are the League’s plans for expansion now that football athletic merit aid has been adopted?

The League will now be able to direct its attention to potential membership growth. We anticipate that this change in policy will make the Patriot League a more attractive destination for potential expansion candidates for both football-only and all-sport members.

How will this decision impact the image of Patriot League football both on a regional and national basis?

With athletic merit aid, we see the opportunity to enhance non-League scheduling with attractive and academically-minded institutions, which in turn will help to increase the visibility of Patriot League schools. It will also open up the opportunity to schedule teams that in the past would not have scheduled a Patriot League institution.

Will Patriot League schools start to play Football Bowl Subdivision (FBS) schools as part of their non-League schedule?

This is an institutional decision depending on the amount of countable athletic aid awarded and the attractiveness of opportunities available. Two Patriot League teams -- Colgate and Fordham -- faced FBS teams during the past two years. Other games versus FBS opponents are scheduled in future years. [Note: Colgate played at Syracuse in 2010 and Fordham played at Army and Connecticut in 2011.]

Will schools still award need-limited financial aid for incoming and current football student-athletes?

Yes, it will continue to be an institutional decision on how financial aid is distributed for all of their athletic programs.

Does this have any impact on other sports within the Patriot League?

This will vary from institution to institution. With the implementation of this financial aid model, or should a school add to its current financial aid budget for football, it would need to make a proportional amount of athletic aid and/or funds available to women’s sports. League members remain committed to the principles of gender equity across their men and women’s sport programs.

[RichH2]

Does this mean a max of 30 or is it an example of implementation over 1st 2years Seems Pl is capping aid of any sort at 60 depressingly my bet is no more than 30 schollies

[carney2]

Does this mean a max of 30 or is it an example of implementation over 1st 2years

15 per year X 4 years = 60 for the 2016 season.

The question is indicative of a Lehigh education at work.

[LUHawker]

Does this mean a max of 30 or is it an example of implementation over 1st 2years Seems Pl is capping aid of any sort at 60 depressingly my bet is no more than 30 schollies

My read is implement 30 over first two years on the way up to 60. So it will take 4 years to get to 60

[RichH2]

Rereading FAQ does not seem to impose 30 cap, rather caps amount scholls can add over 1st 2 years. What happens in the 3rd year?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Now we've got nothing to complain about on AGS.

[RichH2]

Damn , lets gang up on MplsBison some more

[van]

Does this mean a max of 30 or is it an example of implementation over 1st 2years Seems Pl is capping aid of any sort at 60 depressingly my bet is no more than 30 schollies

Maybe the 30 cap will apply to Fordham, give everyone a chance to catch up in 2 years instead of being 2 years behind in 2 years.

[LUHawker]

Rereading FAQ does not seem to impose 30 cap, rather caps amount scholls can add over 1st 2 years. What happens in the 3rd year?

I think this is designed to give schools time to implement to get to 30 so that if Holy Cross only doles out 12 in the first year, they could offer up to 18 in year 2. This way, they wouldn't be penalized for not be able or opting to give 15 in year one.

[danefan]

Congrats to the PL fans.

So what happens with Georgetown now?

[Redwyn]

Congrats to the PL fans.

So what happens with Georgetown now?

A part of me wouldn't be unhappy with the following:

Patriot League North
Holy Cross
Colgate
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Albany

Patriot League South
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Georgetown
Fordham
Stony Brook

It honestly seems rather pretty.....

[RichH2]

I think this is designed to give schools time to implement to get to 30 so that if Holy Cross only doles out 12 in the first year, they could offer up to 18 in year 2. This way, they wouldn't be penalized for not be able or opting to give 15 in year one.

Yup , that is where my slow cognitive process finally got to. Ah the simple joy of senior moments

[van]

Congrats to the PL fans.

So what happens with Georgetown now?

DFW will have more to moan about. Personally, I don't think it changes much for Hoyas, they continue to lag.

[RichH2]

A part of me wouldn't be unhappy with the following:

Patriot League North
Holy Cross
Colgate
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Albany

Patriot League South
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Georgetown
Fordham
Stony Brook

It honestly seems rather pretty.....
Certainly going to be funto play with the concept

[HailSzczur]

Congrats to the PL. Great move for FCS football. Can't wait to see how this effects the product the field down the road. Can't imagine a team like Lehigh's had in the playoffs the last 2 years with scholarship athletes. Could shake the landscape up a bit and make for some tougher OOC games for a lot of teams.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Can we still be the Patsies?




And note to LFN - please edit your topic header. It still looks as if you've been partaking of Carney's umbrage.

[UAalum72]

A part of me wouldn't be unhappy with the following:

Patriot League North
Holy Cross
Colgate
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Albany

Patriot League South
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Georgetown
Fordham
Stony Brook

It honestly seems rather pretty.....
The Patriot League didn't care much having one public university in Towson, what would they think about having five?

Unless you divide it into a 'Patriot League Classic' division and an 'America East +' division.xlolx

[danefan]

A part of me wouldn't be unhappy with the following:

Patriot League North
Holy Cross
Colgate
New Hampshire
Maine
Rhode Island
Albany

Patriot League South
Lehigh
Lafayette
Bucknell
Georgetown
Fordham
Stony Brook

It honestly seems rather pretty.....

Its perfect for Albany. Makes a whole lot sense on a lot of levels....but will the PL school go for being associated in a football only way with public schools?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I think the league is looking principally for full members that are able to comply with the Academic Index. Keep in mind that Navy and Army are full Patriot members, and you can't get any more "public" than that.

[van]

How did a PL thread get highjacked by the NEC?

[Dane96]

And it would be a strong strong league that would have the capacity to change the Eastern Football landscape. That league would garner multiple bids and, if in fact movement with JMU and ODU occurs up a level, could have an affect on the CAA.

It makes too much sense, so of course it would never happen.

[carney2]

Its perfect for Albany. Makes a whole lot sense on a lot of levels....but will the PL school go for being associated in a football only way with public schools?

It hasn't worked in the past, but someone needs to start thinking outside the box.

[Bogus Megapardus]

How did a PL thread get highjacked by the NEC?

Well, it looks like the PL just got a whole lot more competitive. The NEC might have reason for concern.

[danefan]

I think the league is looking principally for full members that are able to comply with the Academic Index. Keep in mind that Navy and Army are full Patriot members, and you can't get any more "public" than that.

You can't get any less public than the Academies, using "public" with the negative connotation that private liberal arts college types like to use.

[van]

I think the league is looking principally for full members that are able to comply with the Academic Index. Keep in mind that Navy and Army are full Patriot members, and you can't get any more "public" than that.

Agree, but AI and "state" schools do not necessarily go together. Personally, my hope would be that Nova will get tired of the CAA and be interested.

[danefan]

Well, it looks like the PL just got a whole lot more competitive. The NEC might have reason for concern.

No doubt that the NEC will take a familiar step backwards compared to the PL if the NEC does not increase its scholarship limit in step with the Patriot League.

[Dane96]

How did a PL thread get highjacked by the NEC?

Get your vag cream out and apply. NO ONE HIJACKED THE THREAD.


The obvious was being pointed out that with the PL's want to expand in football, with the ability to offer aid on merit, and with four strong teams out there waiting in the wings (SBU, UNH, Maine and Albany) who have a desire to play up, and one school who wanted to reduce travel costs (RI), this could be a boon for all the teams involved.

[DFW HOYA]

Agree, but AI and "state" schools do not necessarily go together. Personally, my hope would be that Nova will get tired of the CAA and be interested.

Not a chance.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Not a chance.

I just saw DFW HOYA on the Fordham board trying to convince them to ditch the PL and join the CAA. Grapes that have soured, methinks.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

[Redwyn]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

And boom goes the dynamite....

[van]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

Oh Bogie, they are not ready for you. :D

[Dane96]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

I hear it's Buffalo- me thinks they should drop down a football division in order to comply.

[van]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

SUNY Ithica?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Question for NEC fans - which of the four SUNY major university sites is the "flagship?" If we're taking on a state university, it has to be the flagship, ya know . . . .

Your old Yankee Stadium rival the Violets, of course... xlolx

[Pard4Life]

Observations after a quick read:

1) Schools can offer partial merit aid. For example LB#1 will receive 75% of a scholarship and LB#2 can recieve 25%. This is in line with sports like soccer.

2) The recruits can still be offered need-based aid under the current model. For example, QB#1 family makes only $50k, so he qualifies for full need aid at LC, saving a full merit scholarship.

3) Academic index is in place, but it is up to each school to establish their own floor.

4) There may be a dangerous tier system, as I have feared. For example LC can have 60 merit awards in 2016, but Gtown could have... zero because they decided to continue the current format, just like LC in basketball 98-06.

5) BCS games with Rutgers, Duke, Northwestern, BC-HC??

6) Yes new members, who have to meet the new AI, or there could be a deal.

[Pard4Life]

SUNY Ithica?

No, Cornell is staying in the Ivy League.

[Pard4Life]

I hear it's Buffalo- me thinks they should drop down a football division in order to comply.

SUNY-Binghamton! Overwhelmed with Staten Islanders... the real Jersey Shore culture.

[Andy]

Rereading FAQ does not seem to impose 30 cap, rather caps amount scholls can add over 1st 2 years. What happens in the 3rd year?

Rich, I'm guessing the league is taking the same approach as that imposed on Fordham and described by Masella in a Paul Reinhard piece:

Under its agreement with the Patriot League, Fordham was permitted to recruit 15 scholarship players each of the first two years, "so we're at about 30," Masella said. "From there it's whatever gets us to the equivalent of 60. So I think, based on the numbers, we have the ability next year to recruit 17 scholarship athletes. It's a work in progress and I see the benefits. That 17 will put us around 47 next year on athletic grants, climbing to 60. Down the road I think you're going to see scholarships have their effect."////

So, the 15 limit is only for the first 2 years, then dependent on individual schools existing number of equivalencies. If there's room for more than 15 scholarships they can be granted up to total of all aid = 60 equivalencies.

[Bogus Megapardus]

SUNY-Binghamton! Overwhelmed with Staten Islanders... the real Jersey Shore culture.

Hmmm . . . we've always had a nice lacrosse rivalry with Bingo, after all. And it's located perfectly, right between Colgate and the Lehigh Valley, with direct highway access from Worcester. Maybe Binghamton should be the flagship from now on.

[Pard4Life]

Don't go crazy about expansion, because the CAA just signed a TV deal. Don't know for how much but it's hard to see the football league disintegrating. Coincidence both announced today?

It would be great if we could tab Nova, WM, Richmond.

[Fordham]

Wow!

[Pard4Life]

Hmmm . . . we've always had a nice lacrosse rivalry with Bingo, after all. And it's located perfectly, right between Colgate and the Lehigh Valley, with direct highway access from Worcester. Maybe Binghamton should be the flagship from now on.

No really, I think it is the flagship.

[Dane96]

No really...it is not a flagship (not biting anymore).

The Governor announced all four (UB, UA, SBU, BU) as flagships. That said, UB and SBU get the lions share of funding.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You can't have four flagships. Pick one.

[van]

SUNY-Binghamton! Overwhelmed with Staten Islanders... the real Jersey Shore culture.

Ah yes, Binghamton, just across the state line where the drinking age used to be 18. I remember it fondly.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Don't go crazy about expansion, because the CAA just signed a TV deal. Don't know for how much but it's hard to see the football league disintegrating. Coincidence both announced today?

It would be great if we could tab Nova, WM, Richmond.


Yep. Then we could drop those defalcating Hoyas like a steaming pile. We already have a TV deal with CBS. They'd just have to add some more games.

[Pard4Life]

You can't have four flagships. Pick one.

I call dibs on Binghamton!

I guess it shows you the truly awful and Byzantine nature of NYS politics and organization. Each region gets a flagship!

ps greatest day in PL history and we are arguing about SUNY designations...

[Pard4Life]

Yep. Then we could drop those defalcating Hoyas like a steaming pile. We already have a TV deal with CBS. They'd just have to add some more games.

No the Hoyas will be fine. Their exclusivity clause with FIOS and regional rivalry with Galludet and Catholic will be a big hit on late-night TV.

Target Delaware for football??!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Target Delaware for football??!

Why not? PL teams have a very long history with Delaware.

I just want to see that Lafayette - Rutgers game. I'm pretty confident it's going to happen. Coach T. said that Rutgers keeps asking.

[colorless raider]

What are the chances that the Hoyas get in the Ivy League?

[Dane96]

None

[RichH2]

Rich, I'm guessing the league is taking the same approach as that imposed on Fordham and described by Masella in a Paul Reinhard piece:

Under its agreement with the Patriot League, Fordham was permitted to recruit 15 scholarship players each of the first two years, "so we're at about 30," Masella said. "From there it's whatever gets us to the equivalent of 60. So I think, based on the numbers, we have the ability next year to recruit 17 scholarship athletes. It's a work in progress and I see the benefits. That 17 will put us around 47 next year on athletic grants, climbing to 60. Down the road I think you're going to see scholarships have their effect."////

So, the 15 limit is only for the first 2 years, then dependent on individual schools existing number of equivalencies. If there's room for more than 15 scholarships they can be granted up to total of all aid = 60 equivalencies.

Makes sense Andy, actually for those with low 50s or 40s eqiuivalencies willing to go all in 1st couple of years could benefit . My guess is LU and Gate may not be able to use all 15 the 1st year

[Bogus Megapardus]

What are the chances that the Hoyas get in the Ivy League?

Zero. Even if Columbia drops football.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Great News!!!

[RichH2]

Think the newsmay cheer up Doc Qb a bit also

[ramMan]

Observations after a quick read:

3) Academic index is in place, but it is up to each school to establish their own floor.


Where did you "read" this, Pard4Life? This is of particular concern to Fordham fans.

[jimbo65]

Well in the world of sports, nobody owes "nuthin" to nobody. That said, if somebody does, we the PL fball fans owe my Fordham a great big thank you.I suspect Lhigh & Colgate are also due some kudos. I believe the PL can become a strong FCS league. Hell several of the teams have done well already.

[RichH2]

Well in the world of sports, nobody owes "nuthin" to nobody. That said, if somebody does, we the PL fball fans owe my Fordham a great big thank you.I suspect Lhigh & Colgate are also due some kudos. I believe the PL can become a strong FCS league. Hell several of the teams have done well already.

Bout time we caught up to the Rams. PL will be a major factor. It will be nice to have all of us back together

[Bogus Megapardus]

DFW HOYA says that Fordham ought to thumb its nose at the Patriot League and go join the CAA, scholarships or not. What say you?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A fascinating addition to the release - quotes from the PL presidents.

Of particular note is the words of Georgetown president Dr. John J DeGioia:


"Georgetown offers 29 varsity sports and is committed to Division I football as part of its broadbased approach to intercollegiate athletics. Since 2001, Georgetown has been committed to competing in the sport of football as an associate member of the Patriot League. This has allowed the University to compete with institutions that shared the same academic values and need-based financial aid philosophy.

"Georgetown will continue its membership in the Patriot League in the sport of football and explore all of its options, including our ability to compete as a need-based aid program. We remain committed to our goal of providing our student athletes with an unparalleled academic experience and an athletically competitive football program."

[Pard4Life]

I don't want Fordham going anywhere... they have the best off-campus food in the entire PL.

[Pard4Life]

"Georgetown is also comitted to Verizon FIOS and it's late night, tape delay audience in the DC region."

This will be Kelly's last year. Get out now.

[LUHawker]

A fascinating addition to the release - quotes from the PL presidents.

Of particular note is the words of Georgetown president Dr. John J DeGioia:

Wow - Gtown not making any bones about remaining need-based. Too bad.

[TheValleyRaider]

Well, this was an unexpected thing to hear on a Monday...

Glad to see the PL has finally moved in this direction. I hope to hear an annoucement on Fordham soon, though at this point, I would expect to make them eligible again. At least, that would make sense, but perhaps that's why it wouldn't happen...

As for Georgetown, I'm not sure what their other option would be. Ivies are unlikely to extend an invite, I'm not sure G'town is interested in the Pioneer League, and Independence is a....treacherous path, at best

Hopefully this opens the door for expansion as well, but not exactly holding my breath on that one...

Go PL :)

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

DFW HOYA says that Fordham ought to thumb its nose at the Patriot League and go join the CAA, scholarships or not. What say you?

If there's a bad decision to be made when it comes to athletics Fordham will probably do it. With that said, I can't see Fordham jumping ship now.

Fordham, imo, still needs to upgrade their facilities. They'll remain a middling PL team until they do so.

[van]

Maybe you can win back the cannon.

[DFW HOYA]

1. Fordham fans have talked about the CAA and squawked about the PL for three years now. All I was asking was whether Fordham would recommit to the PL if the CAA offered, or whether they would walk at the first offer. Either way, congratulations.

2. The PL press release made it clear: there is no longer room in the conference for need based aid schools like Georgetown. DeGioia's comments were a direct and perhaps uncomfortable contrast to the Council of Presidents and the juxtaposition of his quotes amidst the chorus is striking in its comparison.

The quote leaves no doubt: Georgetown will explore all options available to it, as it should. Sadly, it has to.

[van]

1. Fordham fans have talked about the CAA for three years. All I was asking was whether Fordham has recommitted to the PL if the CAA offered. Either way, congratulations.

2. The PL press release made it clear: there is no longer room in the conference for need based aid schools like Georgetown. DeGioia's comments were a direct and perhaps uncomfortable contrast to the Council of Presidents and the juxtaposition of his quotes amidst the chorus is striking in its comparison.

The quote leaves no doubt: Georgetown will explore all options available to it, as it should. Sadly, it has to.

Should not be hard to explore, the options are few and not very pretty.

[Bogus Megapardus]

The Hoyas will suggest going independent, but playing an all-Ivy schedule as a de facto member of that league, plus a couple of Marist and Davidson types. Good luck with that. I would assume that the remaining Patriot League members would fight tooth and nail against such a thing. Georgetown has little or no history with the Ivy League. Ours goes back 120 years. Why should Georgetown enjoy a preferred position in Ivy OOC scheduling?

[DFW HOYA]

The Hoyas will suggest going independent, but playing an all-Ivy schedule as a de facto member of that league, plus a couple of Marist and Davidson types. Good luck with that. I would assume that the remaining Patriot League members would fight tooth and nail against such a thing. Georgetown has little or no history with the Ivy League. Ours goes back 120 years. Why should Georgetown enjoy a preferred position in Ivy OOC scheduling?

Simply put, the Ivies aren't scheduling 60 scholarship programs anymore. The days of UConn, UNH, etc. on the schedule are gone. Others will follow.

[van]

The Hoyas will suggest going independent, but playing an all-Ivy schedule as a de facto member of that league, plus a couple of Marist and Davidson types. Good luck with that. I would assume that the remaining Patriot League members would fight tooth and nail against such a thing. Georgetown has little or no history with the Ivy League. Ours goes back 120 years. Why should Georgetown enjoy a preferred position in Ivy OOC scheduling?

Interesting idea, but Ivy's are too arrogant to go along with that ploy.

[carney2]

Maybe you can win back the cannon.

Only if you can "find" the cannon. Thieves!

[carney2]

Wow!

I assume you are reacting to the announcement and not the rest of the drivel in this thread.

[jimbo65]

I assume you are reacting to the announcement and not the rest of the drivel in this thread.
Correcto. Great annnouncement for Pl F ball

[Sader87]

I wonder what Fr Brooks (a great man and a great college president in many respects) is thinking right now, I really do.

[Pard4Life]

Simply put, the Ivies aren't scheduling 60 scholarship programs anymore. The days of UConn, UNH, etc. on the schedule are gone. Others will follow.

HYPP are not going to stop scheduling us because we have scholarships. They are defacto scholarship anyhow.

Predicition: Harvard still beats Lafayette's as$ in 2020.

[Pard4Life]

I wonder what Fr Brooks (a great man and a great college president in many respects) is thinking right now, I really do.

He's thinking "we could have been in the Big East ya know!"

Seriously though it was a noble experiment and ideal, but it just does not work if you want a competitive program in DI.

[JoltinJoe]

Is correct that every school gets to set its own AI? I have nothing to base this on, but perhaps this was an accommodation to Georgetown?

Let's say Georgetown fixes its AI at the same level as Fordham. This creates a pool of potential recruits larger than the pool from which it has historically recruited. If a kid has scholarships offers from PL schools, and a significant financial aid package offered to him by Georgetown, he might just choose Georgetown because of its reputation.

So by broadening its recruiting pool, Georgetown may still get its fair share of talented players.

[Sader87]

Just like Prohibition???

[DetroitFlyer]

Seems like a good opportunity for the PFL to get more Ivy games. Probably time for GT to join the only National FCS conference. Autobid coming in 2013. Only makes sense.

[Sader87]

The Ivies will continue playing the PL....I think (fingers crossed) you may actually see both the PL and the Ancient 8 becoming a lot stronger and closer to where they were vis a vis other FCS programs (and some FBS programs) in the 1970's and 1980's.

[Go...gate]

Now we've got nothing to complain about on AGS.

Time to bring back the bikini and counting threads...

[Model Citizen]

Georgetown will continue its membership in the Patriot League in the sport of football and explore all of its options, including our ability to compete as a need-based aid program.

I don't like the sound of that. Is he talking about the possibility of dropping football?

[DFW HOYA]

Seems like a good opportunity for the PFL to get more Ivy games. Probably time for GT to join the only National FCS conference. Autobid coming in 2013. Only makes sense.

The PFL is the MAAC with frequent flyer miles, no thanks. Georgetown isn't recruiting kids based on the autobid and doesn't have the budget to commit to that level of travel.


Is correct that every school gets to set its own AI? I have nothing to base this on, but perhaps this was an accommodation to Georgetown?

It may be the other way around--I don't think the PL will allow schools to set an 820 AI. More likely the AI is set again on a per school level and not a league wide level. In that example, the AI goes back down for Fordham to where it was and goes higher for Georgetown, with an SAT of 1460. Try selling that with need based aid...


I don't like the sound of that. Is he talking about the possibility of dropping football?
No. It refers to finding where Georgetown can compete as a need based aid program. The PL basically said "Not here."

[Dane96]

Honestly, and not being a dick when I ask this:

How is Villanova successful from a financial perspective to support BE sports and CAA football...but G'Town is not. When I hear G'Town and 'Nova, with all due respect to 'Nova...I think better school, more influential alumni, more cash for G'Town.

Is it the cost of the med school that hampers any influx of spending into the athletics program?!

Or is it just complete apathy and institutional support from the admins blamed on "finances".

[Bogus Megapardus]

Lafayette President Daniel Weiss obviously is oozing with excitement over the scholarship decision, as observed today in The Lafayette:

In an interview Monday with The Lafayette, Weiss said, "The league has made a decision to do this, and we are members of the league. So we are complying with the league. I'm not talking about my personal opinion."

http://www.thelaf.com/sports/patriot-league-to-offer-football-scholarships-1.2777621#.Tzm72lGwXsQ

You can tell he's 100% on board, can't you?

[Dane96]

He can go wipe his vag....

[van]

Lafayette President Daniel Weiss obviously is oozing with excitement over the scholarship decision, as observed today in The Lafayette:

In an interview Monday with The Lafayette, Weiss said, "The league has made a decision to do this, and we are members of the league. So we are complying with the league. I'm not talking about my personal opinion."

http://www.thelaf.com/sports/patriot-league-to-offer-football-scholarships-1.2777621#.Tzm72lGwXsQ

You can tell he's 100% on board, can't you?

Sounds like something you might hear from the White House.

[Sader87]

No offense to DFW or GTown really intended...but what, other than another game in league play, have the Hoyas really brought to the PL in football? Yes, they have become more competitive lately but their support (institutionally and fan-based) has always been on a very D3 type-level.

[DFW HOYA]

Honestly, and not being a dick when I ask this: How is Villanova successful from a financial perspective to support BE sports and CAA football...but G'Town is not. When I hear G'Town and 'Nova, with all due respect to 'Nova...I think better school, more influential alumni, more cash for G'Town. Is it the cost of the med school that hampers any influx of spending into the athletics program?! Or is it just complete apathy and institutional support from the admins blamed on "finances".

Fair question--here's how the numbers play:

Villanova and Georgetown play roughly the same number of sports; however, thre are variances. Georgetown's rowing program numbers 180 (101M, 79 W), for example vs. 39 (0M, 39 W) for Villanova, Villanova has water polo (17M) which Georgetown does not.

Villanova has $4.8M in male institutional aid--taking out $3M for football and $0.6M for basketball, that leaves about $1.2M for all other men's sports, much of that track and soccer. Georgetown has $3.3M in male aid (less in total than other PL schools), but subtracting $0.6M for basketball leaves about $2.7M for other sports, mostly track, soccer, and lacrosse.

Villanova spends $6.4M on football (a cautionary number for PL schools who think this is a zero-sum change), $5.3M on basketball, and $3.0M on all other male sports. Georgetown spends $1.6M on football, $8.6M on basketball, and $4.0M on everyone else. The variance in basketball is due to the fact that Georgetown must buy 15 home games at Verizon Center because the Big East declared its on-campus gymnasium obsolete. Villanova only buys three games a year at Wells Fargo Center and gets to plays the rest of its games on campus for free.

Short answer? Georgetown spends a little more on other sports and a lot more on arena rental, which leaves less money for football.


No offense to DFW or GTown really intended...but what, other than another game in league play, have the Hoyas really brought to the PL in football? Yes, they have become more competitive lately but their support (institutionally and fan-based) has always been on a very D3 type-level.

Georgetown outsells the woeful MSF every year. Hard to judge those numbers when there are only so many seats to go around.

Georgetown spends about the same as Brown ($1.6M) and I'm not aware of any D-III program close to that. Perennial champion Mount Union, for example, is at the top of the D-III curve at about 440K.

[Model Citizen]

No. It refers to finding where Georgetown can compete as a need based aid program. The PL basically said "Not here."

Ok.

PFL seems like a "not there" in your book.

That leaves independent status...unless we're taking a trip to Crazyland with Ivy League expansion or a brand new football league. Lotsa luck.

[Pard4Life]

What's with the talk of the Ivy no longer wanting to schedule PL since we went schollie? The Ivy sought an exemption against the counter rule to play BCS teams. Yale scheduled Army... where is the logic?

[Dane96]

Fair question--here's how the numbers play:

Villanova and Georgetown play roughly the same number of sports; however, thre are variances. Georgetown's rowing program numbers 180 (101M, 79 W), for example vs. 39 (0M, 39 W) for Villanova, Villanova has water polo (17M) which Georgetown does not.

Villanova has $4.8M in male institutional aid--taking out $3M for football and $0.6M for basketball, that leaves about $1.2M for all other men's sports, much of that track and soccer. Georgetown has $3.3M in male aid (less in total than other PL schools), but subtracting $0.6M for basketball leaves about $2.7M for other sports, mostly track, soccer, and lacrosse.

Villanova spends $6.4M on football (a cautionary number for PL schools who think this is a zero-sum change), $5.3M on basketball, and $3.0M on all other male sports. Georgetown spends $1.6M on football, $8.6M on basketball, and $4.0M on everyone else. The variance in basketball is due to the fact that Georgetown must buy 15 home games at Verizon Center because the Big East declared its on-campus gymnasium obsolete. Villanova only buys three games a year at Wells Fargo Center and gets to plays the rest of its games on campus for free.

Short answer? Georgetown spends a little more on other sports and a lot more on arena rental, which leaves less money for football.



Georgetown outsells the woeful MSF every year. Hard to judge those numbers when there are only so many seats to go around.

I'm not aware of any D-III program funded at $1.6 M.

Thanks...got it.

Wonder if they can get a better deal from the Verizon Center....(prob not, wishful thinking).

[Bogus Megapardus]

I hear that Ivy fans everywhere are clamoring to schedule all their OOC games against Georgetown, now that Georgetown's president has stated that the Hoyas can't compete to the level of the Patriot. Makes perfect sense to me.

[MplsBison]

Congrats.

Honest question: just how much more talented are the PL classes going to be each year now? I'm assuming nothing is changing with the AI.

[crusader11]

Will the Patriot League slowly catch up to the NEC now??? (jokes, jokes, jokes)

[crusader11]

I will get to see a Boston College - Holy Cross game...at some point in my lifetime. Who knows when, but that will come eventually.

After all, BC has played Maine, UMass, and Northeastern in recent years. Why not renew the rivalry? Not an annual game, but once every four years or so.

[crusader11]

Congrats.

Honest question: just how much more talented are the PL classes going to be each year now? I'm assuming nothing is changing with the AI.

On par with CAA teams, in my opinion.

Although, you still need the right coaches in place and support from the administration. We've all seen the debacle with Fordham. Scholarships, by themselves, will not win games.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Fair question--here's how the numbers play:

Villanova and Georgetown play roughly the same number of sports; however, thre are variances. Georgetown's rowing program numbers 180 (101M, 79 W), for example vs. 39 (0M, 39 W) for Villanova, Villanova has water polo (17M) which Georgetown does not.

Villanova has $4.8M in male institutional aid--taking out $3M for football and $0.6M for basketball, that leaves about $1.2M for all other men's sports, much of that track and soccer. Georgetown has $3.3M in male aid (less in total than other PL schools), but subtracting $0.6M for basketball leaves about $2.7M for other sports, mostly track, soccer, and lacrosse.

Villanova spends $6.4M on football (a cautionary number for PL schools who think this is a zero-sum change), $5.3M on basketball, and $3.0M on all other male sports. Georgetown spends $1.6M on football, $8.6M on basketball, and $4.0M on everyone else. The variance in basketball is due to the fact that Georgetown must buy 15 home games at Verizon Center because the Big East declared its on-campus gymnasium obsolete. Villanova only buys three games a year at Wells Fargo Center and gets to plays the rest of its games on campus for free.

Short answer? Georgetown spends a little more on other sports and a lot more on arena rental, which leaves less money for football.



Georgetown outsells the woeful MSF every year. Hard to judge those numbers when there are only so many seats to go around.

Georgetown spends about the same as Brown ($1.6M) and I'm not aware of any D-III program close to that. Perennial champion Mount Union, for example, is at the top of the D-III curve at about 440K.

I know land isn't exactly cheap around DC, but I believe some HS right outside of NYC built a football field on top of another building. Georgetown could kill two birds with one stone - build a large enough on campus basketball arena and put the football field on top. Of course, it wouldn't be anywhere near cheap, but what mystifies me about Georgetown is that they have to be near the top in the US when it comes to net worth of graduates, why can't they find someone who wants to put their name on a building?

A lot of the problems with Georgetowns athletics department seem to funnel down to poor fundraising.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Blue Hen,

Georgetown played on a rooftop facility before moving to the MSF. The plot of land where the MSF is would be perfect if the school would put up the money to do it right.

[Bill]

I'm excited....and so are the hordes of Colgate alumni in my family. They can't wait to start scheduling Syracuse again:D Most of them still think the Orangemen are their biggest rival!

[Bill]

I know land isn't exactly cheap around DC, but I believe some HS right outside of NYC built a football field on top of another building. Georgetown could kill two birds with one stone - build a large enough on campus basketball arena and put the football field on top. Of course, it wouldn't be anywhere near cheap, but what mystifies me about Georgetown is that they have to be near the top in the US when it comes to net worth of graduates, why can't they find someone who wants to put their name on a building?

A lot of the problems with Georgetowns athletics department seem to funnel down to poor fundraising.

Certainly makes you think. A quick google search supplied this list :Bolger, Bill 1953-1953
Boumtje-Boumtje, Ruben 2001-2003
Churchwell, Robert 1995-1995
Corley, Ray 1949-1952
Duren, John 1980-1982
Ewing, Patrick 1985-2001 HOF
Floyd, Sleepy 1982-1994
Gillery, Ben 1988-1988
Green, Jeff 2007-2010
Harrington, Othella 1996-2007
Hassett, Billy 1949-1950
Hibbert, Roy 2008-2010
Iverson, Allen 1996-2009
Jackson, Jaren 1989-2001
Jackson, Michael 1987-1989
Jones, Anthony 1986-1989
Kostecka, Andy 1948-1948
Kraus, Dan 1948-1948
Lujack, Al 1946-1946
Mahnken, John 1946-1952
Martin, Bill 1985-1987
Martin, Donald 1946-1947
Mourning, Alonzo 1992-2007
Mutombo, Dikembe 1991-2008
O'grady, Francis 1946-1948
O'keefe, Tommy 1950-1950
Reid, Don 1995-2002
Shelton, Craig 1980-1981
Smith, Charles 1989-1995
Sweetney, Mike 2003-2006
Tucker, Anthony 1994-1994
White, Jahidi 1998-
Williams, Jerome 1996-
Williams, Reggie 1987-1996
Wingate, David 1986-2000

It's Georgetown alumni who played in the NBA. OK, a bunch are from the days of yesteryear, but between those names AND the big moneymakers around, they can't fundraise for an on-campus (or nearby) basketball facility?

[BlueHenSinfonian]

Blue Hen,

Georgetown played on a rooftop facility before moving to the MSF. The plot of land where the MSF is would be perfect if the school would put up the money to do it right.

Fine, build a new one, finish the current one, either way, why is the school having such a hard time finding someone to pay for it?

Check this out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Georgetown_University_alumni

If the first person on your notable alumni page is the king of Jordan, you'd think that finding enough money to build a decent football stadium or upgrade the on campus basketball arena to meet BE standards wouldn't be that hard.

[BisonFan02]

HOYA Football

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_AYcxLgAlVFQ/S9ShD3Dp2GI/AAAAAAAAA2k/YD6NAqxne-U/s1600/georgetown+business+card.jpg

[Sader87]

So the moral of the story is what? "Ooops, we screwed up and wasted 20+ years?"

[Pard4Life]

So the moral of the story is what? "Ooops, we screwed up and wasted 20+ years?"

Yeah... for you at least. This is Lafayette's first scholarship class since like, 1931...

[ngineer]

Don't go crazy about expansion, because the CAA just signed a TV deal. Don't know for how much but it's hard to see the football league disintegrating. Coincidence both announced today?

It would be great if we could tab Nova, WM, Richmond.

Hi, guys...late to the game here, but I was out getting drunk at the Talley Ho on South Side Bet'em, and Colleg Hill Tavern in Easton!!! No, not really. Was actually working. But fantastic news when I opened my email tonight and saw the newsletter. Also has a statement from President Alice Gast which I'll try and post later.

Bogie's 3 candidates, above, are the ones I think the PL will now seriously entertain...and if Bill & Mary want to "come back" to maybe they could bring Furman and Wofford along. I could see North/South Divisions: North: Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova
South: Georgetown, Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford.
Can't get much better academic football conference than that. Obviously, Army and Navy fill in nicely for the other sports...although American screws things up., but details.

Best news in a long time.

[ngineer]

I will get to see a Boston College - Holy Cross game...at some point in my lifetime. Who knows when, but that will come eventually.

After all, BC has played Maine, UMass, and Northeastern in recent years. Why not renew the rivalry? Not an annual game, but once every four years or so.

Should happen in about four years. By then, you should be up to 60 schollies and the Eagles don't lose brownie points.

[ngineer]

Here is President Gast's statement:

Shared values and common beliefs – how Lehigh values the Patriot League
Alice P. Gast
It’s Wednesday in a Lehigh computer science class and an athlete takes the form to the professor
to ask permission to miss class for a game on Friday. They discuss what will be covered and
how she will make up the material. On Friday morning, she loads up her athletic bag and book
bag and heads for the bus. On the bus her teammates are all “in the zone” reading their
textbooks, catching a nap or preparing for the game. They warm up in the arena, feeling at home
with the familiar flags of the Patriot League teams on the wall. They look across the court at
their opponents, comforted by the knowledge that they too have mid-terms next week. They
focus on their game, they know their plan, they know how to execute. They are serious students
and committed athletes. They are student-athletes of the Patriot League.
When we talk about the importance of playing “like minded” teams in our league, we are stating
the importance of our common mission and shared values. The Patriot League is important to
Lehigh because it gathers schools together to compete in fair competitions as peers and rivals
that share common beliefs. We believe in the student-athlete. We believe in collegiate athletics
in a way that may look old-fashioned today. Patriot League athletes are first and foremost
students. We choose to participate in Division 1 athletics because it allows our student-athletes
opportunities to challenge themselves and each other to compete at a very high level. We have
competed in the Patriot League based on shared values for 25 years and we envision upholding
those values as a league for at least 25 more.
The Patriot League is like a family. We work together to define the policies that reflect our
values. We collaborate on academic projects, shared international programs, and leadership
development for our students. We are much like the Ivy League, without the name that evokes
ivy-covered halls (despite the fact that we have plenty of ivy growing on our campuses). We
take pride in our students and we do all that we can to ensure successful completion of their
university education and the beginning of their contribution to the world outside of Lehigh. We
list students’ majors in our programs and we honor their academic achievements as a league.
The regional proximity of our league member schools allows us to compete with one another
with minimal time away from school and at moderate expense.
Like a family, the Patriot League faces challenges and needs to be ready to re-think how we
work together, even as we hold firmly to our fundamental values. Today the challenges of
recruiting student athletes in football and scheduling football contests against schools sharing our
values and stature has made it necessary to seek a more flexible approach to awarding financial
aid. This approach has worked well with our other varsity teams, and this flexibility in aid will
allow us to maintain our core values while strengthening our ability to recruit the kind of studentathletes
we seek.. At Lehigh this flexibility will be administered within our current budget with
no changes in admissions policy. By rising to these challenges and increasing flexibility, we can
strengthen the Patriot League family for the future and sustain the ability to make collegiate
athletics all that we believe it can be. We value the Patriot League and we are proud to be able to
make it stronger.

[ngineer]

Wonder what Peter Likins is thinking. He, along with Fr. Brooks, were leaders in creating the original "Colonial League" in 1986. Likins left Lehigh in the mid-90's to become Chancellor at University of Arizona, but still maintained communication with many at Lehigh as he was a huge wrestling fan and fully supported the sport going to schollies in mid-90's (being a former All-American wrestler himself at Stanford). However, the main deal back then was staying with the 'grant in aid based on financial need' on the premise that money should only be given to those who need it. The change in policy has actually seen an increase in academic profiles of the athletic teams over the years, yet one wonder whether the policy change now closes the door to many who otherwise would have had a Patriot League opportunity? Just some philosophical musing. I think it's the right decision for Lehigh. But it does away with the original concept of not giving money purely for athletic skills if such financial need is not shown.

[Go...gate]

This is, in a way, the end of an era for the Patriot League. We're going our own way after 26 years.

My only concern is that the academic standards are maintained.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Wonder what Peter Likins is thinking. He, along with Fr. Brooks, were leaders in creating the original "Colonial League" in 1986. Likins left Lehigh in the mid-90's to become Chancellor at University of Arizona, but still maintained communication with many at Lehigh as he was a huge wrestling fan and fully supported the sport going to schollies in mid-90's (being a former All-American wrestler himself at Stanford). However, the main deal back then was staying with the 'grant in aid based on financial need' on the premise that money should only be given to those who need it. The change in policy has actually seen an increase in academic profiles of the athletic teams over the years, yet one wonder whether the policy change now closes the door to many who otherwise would have had a Patriot League opportunity? Just some philosophical musing. I think it's the right decision for Lehigh. But it does away with the original concept of not giving money purely for athletic skills if such financial need is not shown.

These are real good points, and you can bet I'll be hitting these notes as the week goes on. It's a decision that has a whole lot of different dimensions.

[Go...gate]

Hi, guys...late to the game here, but I was out getting drunk at the Talley Ho on South Side Bet'em, and Colleg Hill Tavern in Easton!!! No, not really. Was actually working. But fantastic news when I opened my email tonight and saw the newsletter. Also has a statement from President Alice Gast which I'll try and post later.

Bogie's 3 candidates, above, are the ones I think the PL will now seriously entertain...and if Bill & Mary want to "come back" to maybe they could bring Furman and Wofford along. I could see North/South Divisions: North: Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova
South: Georgetown, Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford.
Can't get much better academic football conference than that. Obviously, Army and Navy fill in nicely for the other sports...although American screws things up., but details.

Best news in a long time.


I don't see that. I think AU has been a good addition to our conference.

[citdog]

My only concern is that the academic standards are maintained.



http://dvdmedia.ign.com/dvd/image/article/771/771594/revenge-of-the-nerds-the-panty-raid-edition-20070308023901920-000.jpg

[Pard4Life]

Hi, guys...late to the game here, but I was out getting drunk at the Talley Ho on South Side Bet'em, and Colleg Hill Tavern in Easton!!! No, not really. Was actually working. But fantastic news when I opened my email tonight and saw the newsletter. Also has a statement from President Alice Gast which I'll try and post later.

Bogie's 3 candidates, above, are the ones I think the PL will now seriously entertain...and if Bill & Mary want to "come back" to maybe they could bring Furman and Wofford along. I could see North/South Divisions: North: Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova
South: Georgetown, Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford.
Can't get much better academic football conference than that. Obviously, Army and Navy fill in nicely for the other sports...although American screws things up., but details.

Best news in a long time.

Right it makes sense if the small, private schools in FCS create their own conference. Great calls on Furman and Wofford, but would the SoCon ever break?

Hey why not raid Davidson, CoC for all sports? And VMI.

So you have football only:
Villanova
Richmond

All sports:
Furman
Wofford
WM
CoC

All sports but football:
Davidson
VMI

Completely crazy but hey it was a crazy day!

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Hooray, hooray, hooray... thank God I checked before crashing. I will miss all that hand-wringing.

[Pard4Life]

Hooray, hooray, hooray... thank God I checked before crashing. I will miss all that hand-wringing.

Seriously! I don't know what we will talk about here... expansion?

Also add Elon to the mix...

I can envision Bucknell- Davidson men's bball finals.. good show!

[Pard4Life]

North: Army, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Bucknell, American
South: WM, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Davidson, VMI, Navy

Associate Football: Richmond, Villanova, Fordham

There you have it!

[DFW HOYA]

There's no expansion. The Index will see to that.

[Pard4Life]

Davidson probably exceeds the index and I bet the others would be competitive with the current index format... if someone can pull their profiles easily?

[JoltinJoe]

It may be the other way around--I don't think the PL will allow schools to set an 820 AI. More likely the AI is set again on a per school level and not a league wide level. In that example, the AI goes back down for Fordham to where it was and goes higher for Georgetown, with an SAT of 1460. Try selling that with need based aid...


I agree that's a hard sell to a narrow recruiting pool. However, I hope I understand correctly. If G-Town can offer financial aid to kids who otherwise would not be admitted to G-Town, the Hoyas may be able to make a run at this. I do think G-Town has to increase the number of equivalencies it awards, though.

[Bogus Megapardus]

How this shift will affect the conference’s competitive relationship with the Ivy League is unclear. Robin Harris, executive director of the Ivy League, said the “natural tendency” for the colleges to want to play each other will remain -- they’re still the same institutions, after all. But whether they will compete as often remains to be seen. The Ivies, she said, don’t plan to offer merit aid any time soon.


http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/02/14/football-scholarships-patriot-league-distances-self-ivies

[DetroitFlyer]

How this shift will affect the conference’s competitive relationship with the Ivy League is unclear. Robin Harris, executive director of the Ivy League, said the “natural tendency” for the colleges to want to play each other will remain -- they’re still the same institutions, after all. But whether they will compete as often remains to be seen. The Ivies, she said, don’t plan to offer merit aid any time soon.


http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/02/14/football-scholarships-patriot-league-distances-self-ivies

Hello PFL games.

[Dane96]

Seriously! I don't know what we will talk about here... expansion?

Also add Elon to the mix...

I can envision Bucknell- Davidson men's bball finals.. good show!

ELON? With due respect to Elon, their academics are light years from that of any Patriot League member...including American.

[Dane96]

North: Army, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Bucknell, American
South: WM, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Davidson, VMI, Navy

Associate Football: Richmond, Villanova, Fordham

There you have it!

Navy...is not foregoing it's new Big East football affiliation. Other sports, clearly yes as they are PL members now. In my opinion, if Army is offered a BE football slot one day...both Army and Navy will end up joining in all sports.

[Dane96]

How this shift will affect the conference’s competitive relationship with the Ivy League is unclear. Robin Harris, executive director of the Ivy League, said the “natural tendency” for the colleges to want to play each other will remain -- they’re still the same institutions, after all. But whether they will compete as often remains to be seen. The Ivies, she said, don’t plan to offer merit aid any time soon.

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/02/14/football-scholarships-patriot-league-distances-self-ivies


HEHEHEHE, other than the full rides they basically give in "creative ways".

Right on Robin, I always love a chuckle with my 7am coffee.

[MplsBison]

On par with CAA teams, in my opinion.

Although, you still need the right coaches in place and support from the administration. We've all seen the debacle with Fordham. Scholarships, by themselves, will not win games.

Really?

How many kids from JMU's class this year would qualify for scholarships at Holy Cross with the current AI still in place?

[van]

Navy...is not foregoing it's new Big East football affiliation. Other sports, clearly yes as they are PL members now. In my opinion, if Army is offered a BE football slot one day...both Army and Navy will end up joining in all sports.

Good post, supports my contention that moving the decision up has everything to do with expansion. If Army and/or Navy bolt for the new BE in all sports, then expansion is all the more critical to the survival of the PL.

[Dane96]

And in reality, when the BE does split (and it will...it cannot continue with the current divide it has amongst Football/Basketball), you can almost guarantee Army will be offered a spot in the BE.

The only issue, and it has always been an issue with Army, is the notion that you will be in the "fight" moreso than at Air Force and Navy. Before people jump on me, I am not disparaging service in any of our fine branches of Armed Services. However, there is some consteration from recruits that view a commitment to Army much different than the Air Force or Navy.

Strictly speaking, who cares...you can argue Army doesn't want or need that recruit. But the facts are (from my understanding and personal process with Air Force and Army for baseball) Army does not get the same type of recruiting pool to choose from compared to that of Navy and Air Force.

This...has and always will be why Army has a difficult time succeeding in the big boy sports of Basketball and Football. They do quite well in Lax...but still not remotely good as Navy.

If they can get recruits to come to Army, the same quality and depth as Air Force and Navy...then they will jump into the BE. My bet is that they have a standing offer to come in at any time.

[Franks Tanks]

Navy...is not foregoing it's new Big East football affiliation. Other sports, clearly yes as they are PL members now. In my opinion, if Army is offered a BE football slot one day...both Army and Navy will end up joining in all sports.

I believe Army was offered a slot in the BE for football as well. Army's affiliation with C-USA was a disaster and they won't go down that road again. The other academy sports fit well within the PL. Navy and Army are at the bottom of the basketball standings, and have been for several years. The academies are very good at sports like Lax and baseball, but they do not dominate the league. They would have difficulty competing in the Big East, and have a proper home in the PL. Army and Navy may leave the PL at some point, but I don't see it happening anytime soon.

You are also correct in saying that Army has a more difficult time recruiting. Army grads end up on the ground, and kids shy away from that. Cadets at West Point also spend much more time in the field over the summer, and more time on military related activities in general. Many fall sport athletes spend the weeks leading up to the season eating MRE's and marching around. It is not productive training for their sport.

[CrusaderBob]

I could see North/South Divisions: North: Bucknell, Colgate, Fordham, Lafayette, Lehigh, Villanova
South: Georgetown, Richmond, Wm & Mary, Furman, Wofford.



Seems like ngineer missed a school, but Pard4Life caught it


North: Army, Colgate, Lafayette, Lehigh, Holy Cross, Bucknell, American
South: WM, Furman, Wofford, Elon, Davidson, VMI, Navy

Associate Football: Richmond, Villanova, Fordham

There you have it!

One major problem with all the expansion proposed thus far ...

it moves the geographic center of the league farther South. Outside of scholarships, geography is probably the biggest gripe not just Holy Cross fans but Holy Cross coaches, athletic administrators and academic administrators have had with the Patriot League.

When your nearest league member is a 3+ hour bus ride away, and all you are doing is adding more schools that will require a plane trip, not optimal choices for HC and probably Colgate. You can tolerate adding two members south of DC for football - it means one extra long distance trip per year - but in all sports, not so much. From a time away from school and cost perspective, it will not be warmly recieved.

So, W&M and Richmond - OK especially for FB only. About the limit if you add both in all sports.
Villanova - Within the existing footprint of the league, so good for FB (and all sports if the BE implodes)

But I'd look to Fairfield, Loyola (MD), St. Joseph's, Providence (unlikely unless the BE implodes), as All-sports members. They are a slightly diffent type of school (i.e., Regional Masters Universities as opposed to current membership National Liberal Arts Colleges or National Universities) but it's about time the league recognized that the league's academic rep can provide something to the schools they choose to expand with as opposed to trying to find schools that already fit the mold and help the existing membership's reputation.

[RichH2]

Guess , expansion next on the wish list for many but for me I'm just going to revel in 60 schollies for the foreseeable future. It will be interesting to see what unintended consequences ensue from this move.

[van]

It seems to me that the expansion ideas from this group probably outweigh those of the Presidents by a lot. Me thinks expansion by one or two new members of like minded institutions in or near currrent footprint is more realistic.

[danefan]

It seems to me that the expansion ideas from this group probably outweigh those of the Presidents by a lot. Me thinks expansion by one or two new members of like minded institutions in or near currrent footprint is more realistic.

Any thoughts on who that would be though? There's not really a glutton of "like minded institutions" with Division I football running around looking for a home.

[RichH2]

The list is short and has not changed much over the last 3 years we have been speculating . Nova, UR and W&M , all perfect but....... Every other possibilty mentioned has various and sundry drawbacks. Expansion with All sport schools may be easier than football but neither presents perfect prospects. Personally , I would love Nova for football . Others , save UR and W&M, will be a severe compromise which I dont see as worth the trouble.

[carney2]

This thread has become an opium den. Delusions abound.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't think anyone has any idea how difficult it is to write about all the twists and turns of this issue. I'm going to be talking about this issue for days at a bare minimum on my blog.

[RichH2]

This thread has become an opium den. Delusions abound.


Agreed but nothing compared to flights taking off on Cross Board. They are booking Notre Dame and BC.

[CrusaderBob]

Awww c'mon Rich.

One guy - a long time poster who is currently enrolled in Law School at South Bend U - jokingly suggested that HC could play Notre Dame. Don't think anyone took him seriously.

BC - not such a flight of fancy as a guarantee game. Colgate played Syracuse. Is HC vs. BC in 4 or 5 years really that different?

[Bill]

This thread has become an opium den. Delusions abound.

Carney - classic line. If I could award Karma points, I would :)

[RichH2]

Awww c'mon Rich.

One guy - a long time poster who is currently enrolled in Law School at South Bend U - jokingly suggested that HC could play Notre Dame. Don't think anyone took him seriously.

BC - not such a flight of fancy as a guarantee game. Colgate played Syracuse. Is HC vs. BC in 4 or 5 years really that different?

Couldn't resist. Do think BC will be a lock for Cross as well as UMASS. We'll all need a few $$$ games.

[DFW HOYA]

One major problem with all the expansion proposed thus far ...it moves the geographic center of the league farther South. Outside of scholarships, geography is probably the biggest gripe not just Holy Cross fans but Holy Cross coaches, athletic administrators and academic administrators have had with the Patriot League.

Which is why the exit of the league's southernmost team was deemed, to some, an acceptable outcome if it could help attract expansion candidates farther north.

[Pard4Life]

Yeah expansion is fanciful... watch it be Marist and Fairfield.

[PAllen]

Don't count out VMI for all sports including football. They've been outwardly "courting" the League for a long time. I just don't know how much appetite there is for going down the "Davidson" road again.

[ngineer]

How this shift will affect the conference’s competitive relationship with the Ivy League is unclear. Robin Harris, executive director of the Ivy League, said the “natural tendency” for the colleges to want to play each other will remain -- they’re still the same institutions, after all. But whether they will compete as often remains to be seen. The Ivies, she said, don’t plan to offer merit aid any time soon.


http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2012/02/14/football-scholarships-patriot-league-distances-self-ivies

What a crock. They give free rides now, just cloaked as a grant in aid as most kids' parents' income gives them that flexibility with their institutional largesse.

[crusader11]

This is, in a way, the end of an era for the Patriot League. We're going our own way after 26 years.

My only concern is that the academic standards are maintained.

Better students will come to PL schools

Kids who would otherwise be going to Harvard, Yale, Penn, etc. will come to PL schools...or at least some of them will.

Get aid at an Ivy, but still pay 15-20K a year. Or, come to a PL school for free?

[ngineer]

Good post, supports my contention that moving the decision up has everything to do with expansion. If Army and/or Navy bolt for the new BE in all sports, then expansion is all the more critical to the survival of the PL.

I think Army and Navy are very happy in the PL for all other sports. They are very competitive and the academics are similar. Going BE in everything would be a huge mistake for them. This way, they can now also play us in football frequently in some kind of rotating format, as we do now with the IL.

[ngineer]

Any thoughts on who that would be though? There's not really a glutton of "like minded institutions" with Division I football running around looking for a home.

Remember that Richmond approached the PL about 5 years ago, but all heck broke loose with the alums. Now, along with Villanova, I could see those two as being the next 'logical two."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This thread has become an opium den. Delusions abound.

http://static.tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pub/images/Reefer_Madness_3778.jpg

Hop to it, Bogie.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Hop to it, Bogie.


Delusional indeed - I was just reading the Third Rail blog. I've a thing or three to write about those Hoya Saxa delusions.

[DFW HOYA]

Delusional indeed - I was just reading the Third Rail blog. I've a thing or three to write about those Hoya Saxa delusions.

Please do. It beats working.

[RichH2]

Ok , per Bogie's suggestion read DFW today. As usual excellently written analysis . Altho the angst is genuine and I do sympathize ,to anticipate a divorce and blame it on alleged deluded decisions by Gate and Lehigh is a bit much.We have all listened over the years with DFW's frustration with Hoya inability to offer anywhere near same amounts of aid as Gate and Lehigh. Aid now changed to merit as opposed to need grants. It is GU's decision how much aid they will give to football. No one is asking GU to leave or to alter their aid program. Likewise their issues with aid are not and should not be determinative of what other schools do. Issue is essentially the same as it has been for these many years. GU cannot or will not fund football regardless of whether it is need grants or merit grants

[Lehigh Football Nation]

You can go to my blog to read my thoughts, including G'Town, or you can go to CSJ to read the contents of both blog postings at once:

http://www.college-sports-journal.com/index.php/79-college-sports-journal/chuck-burton/177-decision-made-patriot-league-football-goes-scholarship

[DFW HOYA]

The PL leadership knows that Georgetown was as easy a school to get along with as the PL will ever get--asked for nothing special, made no demands, took its drubbings and came back for more. The PL has essentially told Georgetown that unless it can double the school's entire men's scholarship budget (basketball included) , look elsewhere.

When Towson wanted out and no one else was in line, Georgetown stepped up to join--the PL fit the goals of its program top to bottom. Now, it's expendable.

[Go...gate]

Don't count out VMI for all sports including football. They've been outwardly "courting" the League for a long time. I just don't know how much appetite there is for going down the "Davidson" road again.

Agreed. If I were asked to bet my own money, VMI would be the next addition. Villanova will never join the PL as long as Talley is there. Having said that, I hope there comes a time when we kick their backsides in the regular season or play-offs.

[RichH2]

The PL leadership knows that Georgetown was as easy a school to get along with as the PL will ever get--asked for nothing special, made no demands, took its drubbings and came back for more. The PL has essentially told Georgetown that unless it can double the school's entire men's scholarship budget (basketball included) , look elsewhere.

When Towson wanted out and no one else was in line, Georgetown stepped up to join--the PL fit the goals of its program top to bottom. Now, it's expendable.





Where in God's name do you get expendable? Because we dont lack the resouces or will to succeed? Merit aid has improved the athletic and academic quality of our recruits. Somehow you make it our fault that GU cannot or will not. You have complained for years about the disparity in aid amounts in the PL bemoaning GU's financial inability to match those amounts. PL has simply moved to a merit grant approach as opposed to the old need grant approach. PL will improve. Gu 's objections seemnowto be based on more philosophical rather than economic rationale. Well when GU switches from merit to need aid in Basketball, I will buy that argument

[Bogus Megapardus]

When Georgetown wanted to upgrade, it unilaterally kicked an entire football conference - the MAAC - off to the curb and ensured that conference's demise. I wonder what the kind folks at St. Peters, Siena, La Salle and Iona think about Georgetown's decision.

Georgetown as a de facto Ivy? Never. Even aside from the fascinating presumption that the entire Ivy League values its relationship with Georgetown far more than it does with the rest of the Patriot schools, Georgetown wouldn't even agree to a return trip to Hanover in a home-and-home with Dartmouth a couple of years ago. Harvard and Yale like to play at Lafayette and Holy Cross becasue those places have facilities similar their own. No one wants to go to Multi-Sport Field. And if Georgetown suddenly does fix MSF in return for ersatz Ivy status, then we'll know just how much the Hoyas valued their Patriot affiliation after all.

[DFW HOYA]

When Georgetown wanted to upgrade, it unilaterally kicked an entire football conference - the MAAC - off to the curb and ensured that conference's demise. I wonder what the kind folks at St. Peters, Siena, La Salle and Iona think about Georgetown's decision.

There were eight MAAC schools after Georgetown left: Fairfield, LaSalle, Siena, St. Peter's, Duquesne, Iona, Marist, and Canisius, and St. John's would be back within two years. The MAAC survived for eight more seasons and remained as viable with Georgetown as without it.



Georgetown as a de facto Ivy? Never. Even aside from the fascinating presumption that the entire Ivy League values its relationship with Georgetown far more than it does with the rest of the Patriot schools, Georgetown wouldn't even agree to a return trip to Hanover in a home-and-home with Dartmouth a couple of years ago.

How do you know that, did you read it on a message board? Teevens offered a one game deal and Georgetown took it, and the parties would then negotiate a home and away going forward. Where was the similar concern when three different scholarship teams since 2009 failed to return games to Georgetown after GU played them on the road?



Harvard and Yale like to play at Lafayette and Holy Cross becasue those places have facilities similar their own. No one wants to go to Multi-Sport Field.

In the next four seasons, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, and yes, mighty Harvard will enter the spacious grounds of the Field With No Name. Your point, again?



And if Georgetown suddenly does fix MSF in return for ersatz Ivy status, then we'll know just how much the Hoyas valued their Patriot affiliation after all.

No, it'll mean that someone has greenlighted construction after years of red tape.

.

[van]

I think everyone overestimates how much merit aid will increase the disparity between G-town and rest of PL. Yes, will widen the gap some assuming Hoyas do not play, but merit aid with AI is not going to make us instant national contenders.

[RichH2]

true van,I think DFW jumping the shark a bit. It will be at least 2 or3 yrs before merit aid really impacts. Agree not likely ,given academics ,that PL will dominate anyone but we will be able to compete with everyone

[ngineer]

Agreed. If I were asked to bet my own money, VMI would be the next addition. Villanova will never join the PL as long as Talley is there. Having said that, I hope there comes a time when we kick their backsides in the regular season or play-offs.

Actually, Talley made some comments a year or two ago that seemed to show a mellowing on that position. He couched his terms as related to scholarships, yet dealing with the AI could be problematic for him. OTOH, he won't be around much longer me thinks.

[MplsBison]

The PL leadership knows that Georgetown was as easy a school to get along with as the PL will ever get--asked for nothing special, made no demands, took its drubbings and came back for more. The PL has essentially told Georgetown that unless it can double the school's entire men's scholarship budget (basketball included) , look elsewhere.

When Towson wanted out and no one else was in line, Georgetown stepped up to join--the PL fit the goals of its program top to bottom. Now, it's expendable.

So drop football. You whiny jerk.

No one does, nor should they dare, give any sympathy to a school with such a high profile, national basketball program - playing in the Big East with full scholarships.


Yep, football is expensive. So don't play it if you can't afford to do it correctly!!!

No school in earth deserves to have football on the cheap.

[DFW HOYA]

So drop football. You whiny jerk. No one does, nor should they dare, give any sympathy to a school with such a high profile, national basketball program - playing in the Big East with full scholarships. Yep, football is expensive. So don't play it if you can't afford to do it correctly!!!

No school in earth deserves to have football on the cheap.

Thank you for your insightful comments.

[Bogus Megapardus]

There were eight MAAC schools after Georgetown left: Fairfield, LaSalle, Siena, St. Peter's, Duquesne, Iona, Marist, and Canisius, and St. John's would be back within two years. The MAAC survived for eight more seasons and remained as viable with Georgetown as without it.

So why then did Georgetown leave, other than to "upgrade" football, without concern for its league-mates?


How do you know that, did you read it on a message board?

Not from a message board. It was contained in a letter directly from Dartmouth's Athletic Director. You know this as well as I do.



"Georgetown, a logical match-up competitively and philosophically, is happy to host us, but has no interest in coming to Hanover"

http://www.dartmouthsports.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=11600&ATCLID=204772892


In the next four seasons, Yale, Princeton, Dartmouth, Brown, and yes, mighty Harvard will enter the spacious grounds of the Field With No Name. Your point, again?

The rest of the PL has been playing those teams for a century or more. Georgetown now has them on its schedule because of its affiliation with the Patriot League. Robin Harris, executive director of the Ivy League, said yesterday that the “natural tendency for the colleges to want to play each other will remain -- they’re still the same institutions, after all." Where in all of this do you find an inclination for Georgetown suddenly to enjoy exclusive dibs on Ivy scheduling?


No, it'll mean that someone has greenlighted construction after years of red tape.

. . . . now that Georgetown can't hide behind the "excuse" of deeming the rest of the Patriot members not to be worth the effort.

[DFW HOYA]

1. So why then did Georgetown leave the MAAC, other than to "upgrade" football, without concern for its league-mates?
The MAAC did not provide the level of competition Georgetown sought--at one point GU was 26-2 in conference games. The Ivy League was not interested in scheduling Georetown as a MAAC team, and being a member of the PL offered that. The MAAC also had specific restrictions on budgets (e.g. only two F/T coaches allowed) which hampered recruiting and retention of coaches. The MAAC was in the early stages of deemphasizing football further to protect its full members who were struggling to stay up with the associate members, and associate schools were beginning to look elsewhere, as St. John's did in its largely unparepared move to the NEC. Duquesne probably would have left as well but the PL was not interested at the time.

2. Re: Dartmouth-Georgetown, It was contained in a letter directly from Dartmouth's Athletic Director. You know this as well as I do.
I forgot the original context, but recall it now. Just my two cents, but I think Kevin Kelly is wary of long bus trips from an economic as well as a competitive standpoint. Washington to Hanover is roughly 10 hours each way and the longest they've gone out of conference in his tenure is Davidson (6.5 hrs.). I don't think anyone at Georgetown is drawing a line at the New Hampshire border, and if they can work out a longer term deal, fine.

3. Where in all of this do you find an inclination for Georgetown suddenly to enjoy exclusive dibs on Ivy scheduling?
Nothign exclusive about it--if the Ivies want to find a scheduling partner (note: not an associate member) who will commit to playing by their rules in aid and recruiting and will allow them to open up their schedule by a week, Georgetown is both willing and able to do so. That does not preclude any team, PL or otherwise, to compete among 16 other non-conference slots available among Ivy teams. And frankly, if the PL is no longer a competitive option or it moves to end associate memberships, Georgetown will need games in a big way.

4. Georgetown can't hide behind the "excuse" of deeming the rest of the Patriot members not to be worth the effort.
That has never been suggested nor implied. The MSF is all about money and construction priorities.

[RichH2]

DFW in a funk, understandably. Not our fault.

Love playing UNH.Occasionally. PL for good or ill is a rather homogenous association. Snobbish? perhaps, if to put academics before athletics. Unlike the Ivies, at least in football, we still seek to be the best we can be at ALL our endeavors whether academic or athletic. Merit aid will help with those endeavors both academically and athletically. Who fits that description now? No one not already in a conference. We may have to await the further cascade of dominoes in the Conference shffle

[Mr. C]

LFN is just looking for attention and trying to attract traffic to his blog... just like his concocted rumor of a Yankee Stadium game last spring. Move along... Move along..
Well, I guess we found out again what a clue you had on this. Did you bother to acknowledge how 180 degrees off you were with your attacks on LFN? Nice going Pard.