Is the THE Patriot League announcement? I mean THE ONE?

[van]

Well, I guess we found out again what a clue you had on this. Did you bother to acknowledge how 180 degrees off you were with your attacks on LFN? Nice going Pard.

Attacks came for that school in Easton, we are used to those being off, no big deal.

[aceinthehole]

1. So why then did Georgetown leave the MAAC, other than to "upgrade" football, without concern for its league-mates?
The MAAC did not provide the level of competition Georgetown sought--at one point GU was 26-2 in conference games. The Ivy League was not interested in scheduling Georetown as a MAAC team, and being a member of the PL offered that. The MAAC also had specific restrictions on budgets (e.g. only two F/T coaches allowed) which hampered recruiting and retention of coaches. The MAAC was in the early stages of deemphasizing football further to protect its full members who were struggling to stay up with the associate members, and associate schools were beginning to look elsewhere, as St. John's did in its largely unparepared move to the NEC. Duquesne probably would have left as well but the PL was not interested at the time.

Although the NEC allows scholarships (up to 40 right now), there is no minimum for the Hoyas to meet. And while NEC schools do not carry the academic pedigree of the Ivy or PL, it is more closely in line with Georgetown's former home in the MAAC.

In your opinion, at this time will Georgetown seriously consider joining the NEC?
Also, what factors would be most unappealing (competiveness, academic reputations, public schools, funding, etc.) and cause the Administration or alumni to go in another direction?

[DFW HOYA]

In your opinion, at this time will Georgetown seriously consider joining the NEC? Also, what factors would be most unappealing (competiveness, academic reputations, public schools, funding, etc.) and cause the Administration or alumni to go in another direction?

1. First, the NEC would have to be interested. There are message boards with people arguing that East Carolina should be in the Big East, for example, only that the Big East has no strong interest in return. I honestly can't say whether the NEC wants to go in this direction or pursue the CAA's northern outliers to follow URI's lead.

2. Next, I see an open question as to where the NEC wants to position itself in the future. If the PL's move forces the NEC's hand to jump to 60, Georgetown would be essentially trading a shaky position on one league for another. If the conference is comfortable being a 40 scholarship league below the counter limit, does this have support from Albany and CCSU as well as St. Francis and Sacred Heart?

3. NEC teams fared poorly out of conference in 2011 (11-22). What is the long term plan for where the conference wants to be out of conference, and how will any expansion after URI affect this positioning?

Georgetown is not going anywhere in 2012. That having been said, if the PL is going in another direction that is contrary to a need-based aid program, Georgetown absolutely should do the due diligence to see what other options best fit its competitive and institutional priorities. That may ultimately be in the PL and finishing last every year for its efforts, but it doesn't have to be, if the right homework is done. If the NEC has interest and a plan, that's ultimately for them to decide and to discuss. If the PL wants to engage Georgetown as a future partner and not just be content running out the contract and becoming the Patriot-6, well, they need to speak up, too, which is why my comments on Carolyn Femovich's comments were somewhat critical.

The PL can't kick the can on this and wake up in a couple of years and wondered what happened. It needs to address if Georgetown fit their long term plans and if so, if Georgetown can make commitments that are acceptable even if it does not involve scholarships. And, to be fair, if the PL decides it is a "60 or out" league, let's be up front and discuss a suitable transition for Georgetown as new schools (whoever they are) arrive.

[breezy]

I haven't looked all that closely, but I do not think the PL has adopted a "60 or out" policy. Each institution makes its own choice. Georgetown has done very well recruiting the last couple of years despite having (reportedly) fewer "equivalencies" to offer recruited student-athletes. With proper leadership, Georgetown may well be able to use its national reputation to remain competitive in PL football even if all other schools have scholarships and Georgetown does not -- at least over the next several years. I don't see why Georgetown has to make a "rush to judgment" on this issue. It's not like it has any real viable alternative options at the moment.

[Pard4Life]

Well, I guess we found out again what a clue you had on this. Did you bother to acknowledge how 180 degrees off you were with your attacks on LFN? Nice going Pard.

If you bother to follow the banter between myself and the Lehigh folk, it's the usual sarcastic chicanary... and at the very least it's a loose allusion to the mayor in the movie Jaws...

[Pard4Life]

I haven't looked all that closely, but I do not think the PL has adopted a "60 or out" policy. Each institution makes its own choice. Georgetown has done very well recruiting the last couple of years despite having (reportedly) fewer "equivalencies" to offer recruited student-athletes. With proper leadership, Georgetown may well be able to use its national reputation to remain competitive in PL football even if all other schools have scholarships and Georgetown does not -- at least over the next several years. I don't see why Georgetown has to make a "rush to judgment" on this issue. It's not like it has any real viable alternative options at the moment.

Right, it's not a rush to 60. Each school can plot their own course, which may result a tier system of have and have nots. But so far, it seems like everyone is on board with 60 but Georgetown. If they have yet to build a program based on their national reputation, I doubt they will start doing so in a scholarship league. They are the Lafayette basketball team circa 2005 of the football league.

[Go...gate]

I haven't looked all that closely, but I do not think the PL has adopted a "60 or out" policy. Each institution makes its own choice. Georgetown has done very well recruiting the last couple of years despite having (reportedly) fewer "equivalencies" to offer recruited student-athletes. With proper leadership, Georgetown may well be able to use its national reputation to remain competitive in PL football even if all other schools have scholarships and Georgetown does not -- at least over the next several years. I don't see why Georgetown has to make a "rush to judgment" on this issue. It's not like it has any real viable alternative options at the moment.

It does not appear that way. Another thing to remember is that scholarships do not necessarily equal success. Fordham football has struggled to date with scholarships. Colgate basketball has not been aided by scholarships - they barely moved the needle on the strength of the program.

[Go...gate]

1. First, the NEC would have to be interested. There are message boards with people arguing that East Carolina should be in the Big East, for example, only that the Big East has no strong interest in return. I honestly can't say whether the NEC wants to go in this direction or pursue the CAA's northern outliers to follow URI's lead.

2. Next, I see an open question as to where the NEC wants to position itself in the future. If the PL's move forces the NEC's hand to jump to 60, Georgetown would be essentially trading a shaky position on one league for another. If the conference is comfortable being a 40 scholarship league below the counter limit, does this have support from Albany and CCSU as well as St. Francis and Sacred Heart?

3. NEC teams fared poorly out of conference in 2011 (11-22). What is the long term plan for where the conference wants to be out of conference, and how will any expansion after URI affect this positioning?

Georgetown is not going anywhere in 2012. That having been said, if the PL is going in another direction that is contrary to a need-based aid program, Georgetown absolutely should do the due diligence to see what other options best fit its competitive and institutional priorities. That may ultimately be in the PL and finishing last every year for its efforts, but it doesn't have to be, if the right homework is done. If the NEC has interest and a plan, that's ultimately for them to decide and to discuss. If the PL wants to engage Georgetown as a future partner and not just be content running out the contract and becoming the Patriot-6, well, they need to speak up, too, which is why my comments on Carolyn Femovich's comments were somewhat critical.

The PL can't kick the can on this and wake up in a couple of years and wondered what happened. It needs to address if Georgetown fit their long term plans and if so, if Georgetown can make commitments that are acceptable even if it does not involve scholarships. And, to be fair, if the PL decides it is a "60 or out" league, let's be up front and discuss a suitable transition for Georgetown as new schools (whoever they are) arrive.

Right now, this is a brave new world for the whole PL. While I think scholarships will make a competitive difference long-term, this is by no means certain.

[van]

Right now, this is a brave new world for the whole PL. While I think scholarships will make a competitive difference long-term, this is by no means certain.

Measureable competitive difference yes, significant difference, probably not.

[aceinthehole]

1. First, the NEC would have to be interested. There are message boards with people arguing that East Carolina should be in the Big East, for example, only that the Big East has no strong interest in return. I honestly can't say whether the NEC wants to go in this direction or pursue the CAA's northern outliers to follow URI's lead.

2. Next, I see an open question as to where the NEC wants to position itself in the future. If the PL's move forces the NEC's hand to jump to 60, Georgetown would be essentially trading a shaky position on one league for another. If the conference is comfortable being a 40 scholarship league below the counter limit, does this have support from Albany and CCSU as well as St. Francis and Sacred Heart?

3. NEC teams fared poorly out of conference in 2011 (11-22). What is the long term plan for where the conference wants to be out of conference, and how will any expansion after URI affect this positioning?

1. I don't know the NEC's interest either, but I would have to imagine that if the Hoya's "commitment" matched that of the rest of the NEC, I think it is fair to say we would very much want to be associated with an institution the caliber of Georgetown.

2. That brings us to the nrext question - what is the NEC's "commitment?" It has been widely reported that there is a division within the NEC regarding the limit on scholarships. To date that division has been settled in a compromised fashion (40 scholly limit - no minimum). However, as the FCS environment evolves, I have no doubt the NEC will move to reexamine its current "commitment" and evaluate if an increase in scholarships is in the best interest of the conference.

3. While the league's non-conference performance as a whole was down this past season, on the whole the NEC's stock is on the rise. Will it be enough to catch up with the more established and better funded league - likely not, but the league is 100% committed to being competitive nationally in FCS football.

[danefan]

1. I don't know the NEC's interest either, but I would have to imagine that if the Hoya's "commitment" matched that of the rest of the NEC, I think it is fair to say we would very much want to be associated with an institution the caliber of Georgetown.

2. That brings us to the nrext question - what is the NEC's "commitment?" It has been widely reported that there is a division within the NEC regarding the limit on scholarships. To date that division has been settled in a compromised fashion (40 scholly limit - no minimum). However, as the FCS environment evolves, I have no doubt the NEC will move to reexamine its current "commitment" and evaluate if an increase in scholarships is in the best interest of the conference.

3. While the league's non-conference performance as a whole was down this past season, on the whole the NEC's stock is on the rise. Will it be enough to catch up with the more established and better funded league - likely not, but the league is 100% committed to being competitive nationally in FCS football.

Good timing for the NEC Football meetings....which happened yesterday. I have to imagine the discussion of scholarships and the PL's decision came up.

[carney2]

I hate to interrupt all the DFW bashing to put us back on topic, but it's what a curmudgeon does, I guess. My long winded question goes something like this:

Fordham is already on board with 60 scholarships.

The assumption has always been that Colgate and Lehigh would go to the max as soon as they were allowed.

My "expect the worst because it's Lafayette" inclinations have been thoroughly ridiculed on the Lafayette board and I am assured by "reliable sources" that the Pards are in for the full 60.

Georgetown appears confused and confusing, but something less than 60 seems assured.

That leaves Bucknell and Holy Cross. Any solid, reliable, quotable information on where they're headed?

[RichH2]

with thanks to voyvey on Ivy Board for the research some interesting statsfor last 10 years of IL-PL football

Gate 23-7
Fordham 10-8
Lehigh 13-12
Cross 15-16
Lafayette 15-19
Bucknell 5-16
Hoyas 1-12

Even given that scholarships will provide only a slight improvement in PL recruiting vs IL , that would seem to be enuf to swing balance to PL in a much more substantial manner than I had thought

[Bogus Megapardus]

with thanks to voyvey on Ivy Board for the research some interesting statsfor last 10 years of IL-PL football

Gate 23-7
Fordham 10-8
Lehigh 13-12
Cross 15-16
Lafayette 15-19
Bucknell 5-16
Hoyas 1-12

Even given that scholarships will provide only a slight improvement in PL recruiting vs IL , that would seem to be enuf to swing balance to PL in a much more substantial manner than I had thought

I protest! These numbers are skewed. It make a huge difference if you're playing Harvard, Yale and Penn every year, as opposed to Cornell, Dartmouth and Columbia. Some Ivies are much more equal than others.

And how the heck did 'gate get to be 23-7? Already counting G'Town as a Fake Ivy?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

And how the heck did 'gate get to be 23-7? Already counting G'Town as a Fake Ivy?

Cornell and Princeton, methinks.

[RichH2]

Skewed without doubt but valid nonetheless froma league perspective. If you discount GU PL has a winning record vs IL. Of course to be fair we should also discount Fordham, not fair they get to play Columbia every yearxrolleyesx

[Pard4Life]

with thanks to voyvey on Ivy Board for the research some interesting statsfor last 10 years of IL-PL football

Gate 23-7
Fordham 10-8
Lehigh 13-12
Cross 15-16
Lafayette 15-19
Bucknell 5-16
Hoyas 1-12

Even given that scholarships will provide only a slight improvement in PL recruiting vs IL , that would seem to be enuf to swing balance to PL in a much more substantial manner than I had thought

What makes you draw this conclusion? You would think our records would improve but...

Colgate also includes Dartmouth and maybe a few Yale games. They never play Harvard or Penn.

LC has the most (shocking right?). I still see the Pards being handled by Harvard. We can incognito the 2011 Alabama Crimson Tide as the Pards and we'd still lose to Harvard and Princeton.

[Bogus Megapardus]

We can incognito the 2011 Alabama Crimson Tide as the Pards and we'd still lose to Harvard and Princeton.


But we're learning how to beat Penn, finally. And that's a good thing.

As far as the Pards go, there's no way Penn and Princeton fall off our schedule. You literally can walk to College Hill from those places and still get home in time for supper. Are they REALLY going to bus it to Bryant or to St. Francis (PA) just to spite us? And c'mon, we're Lafayette, for chrissake. The little maroon pinata. The quintessential Princeton safety school. Merit aid or not, when could those guys ever possibly think of Lafayette as "scheduling up?"

[Lehigh Football Nation]

But we're learning how to beat Penn, finally. And that's a good thing.

Why is it that Bagnoli channels his inner Frankasaurus lately whenever he plays Lafayette? Maybe it's more of a matter about ol' Al forgetting everything he's learned offensively instead. xlolx

[carney2]

We can incognito the 2011 Alabama Crimson Tide as the Pards and we'd still lose to...Princeton.

4 wins in 189 years. That isn't football. It's a human sacrifice.

[Go...gate]

What makes you draw this conclusion? You would think our records would improve but...

Colgate also includes Dartmouth and maybe a few Yale games. They never play Harvard or Penn.LC has the most (shocking right?). I still see the Pards being handled by Harvard. We can incognito the 2011 Alabama Crimson Tide as the Pards and we'd still lose to Harvard and Princeton.

Hey, fellows, I am loudly screaming "FOUL" on this. Colgate has played everyone in the Ivy for years, will play anyone in the Ivy and have tried hard to schedule them at the repeated request of alumni. Harvard, Penn and Columbia won't play us and have said as much. Dartmouth ended a series early with us last year. Rumor has it that our AD, who came from Brown (a traditional Colgate opponent), is trying to get a series with them. And Lafayette has had trouble beating anybody in the Ivy League for years.

[RichH2]

C'mon fellas, no doubt if we only played H-Y and Penn or IL only played GU and BU numbers would be much different. The reults are what they are. Scholarships willtipthat balance more in our favor over time .

[van]

Originally Posted by Bogus Megapardus
And how the heck did 'gate get to be 23-7? Already counting G'Town as a Fake Ivy?



Cornell and Princeton, methinks.

Almost exclusively Cornell, Dartmouth and Princeton. 1-1 vs Yale in last decade, 1-0 vs Columbia, no Penn, no Harvard

As Rich notes, valid from league perspective just as Hoyas record is valid from a league perspective

Some beat up on NEC and Colgate beats up on IL bottom feeders.

[van]

Hey, fellows, I am loudly screaming "FOUL" on this. Colgate has played everyone in the Ivy for years, will play anyone in the Ivy and have tried hard to schedule them at the repeated request of alumni. Harvard, Penn and Columbia won't play us and have said as much. Dartmouth ended a series early with us last year. Rumor has it that our AD, who came from Brown (a traditional Colgate opponent), is trying to get a series with them. And Lafayette has had trouble beating anybody in the Ivy League for years.

Go check your lifetime records against H-Y-Penn.

You mean to say that those Ivy snobs don't want to come to beautiful Hamilton? What is wrong with those guys?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Tony Rhodin, in the Express-Times, comes out against scholarships at Lafayette:



"Lafayette had a great history of college football from 1890 to 1930. It's fun to read as the Leopards won three national championships in that era. But it's equally fun to read about how the players got in, how long they stayed and how they often showed up a year or two later on another college's team. Not the sort of thing about which college presidents like to brag. But it brought winning."

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/tony-rhodin/index.ssf/2012/02/lehigh_lafayette_would_be_bett.html

[TheValleyRaider]

Gate 23-7

2002
Dartmouth W
at Princeton L
at Cornell W
2003
at Dartmouth W
at Cornell W
at Princeton W
Yale W
2004
Dartmouth W
at Yale L
Princeton W
at Cornell W
2005
at Dartmouth L
Cornell W
at Princeton W
2006
Dartmouth W
Princeton L
Cornell L
2007
at Dartmouth W
at Cornell L
2008
Dartmouth W
Princeton W
at Cornell W
2009
at Dartmouth W
Cornell W
at Princeton W
2010
at Princeton W
at Cornell W
2011
at Dartmouth L
Cornell W


Go check your lifetime records against H-Y-Penn.

We've played the Ivies a total of 308 times in our history, with only 17 games coming against Harvard and Penn. Yale a few more times, but we also have a strong record against Dartmouth, a traditionally strong Ivy program (if not over the last decade or so). If they want to play us, they know where we are


You mean to say that those Ivy snobs don't want to come to beautiful Hamilton? What is wrong with those guys?

I know, right? xconfusedx

[RichH2]

Tony Rhodin, in the Express-Times, comes out against scholarships at Lafayette:



"Lafayette had a great history of college football from 1890 to 1930. It's fun to read as the Leopards won three national championships in that era. But it's equally fun to read about how the players got in, how long they stayed and how they often showed up a year or two later on another college's team. Not the sort of thing about which college presidents like to brag. But it brought winning."

http://www.lehighvalleylive.com/tony-rhodin/index.ssf/2012/02/lehigh_lafayette_would_be_bett.html

I've been responding to his article. either he is trolling or he is an idealoque squeezing assumptions into facts to support his argument.;)

[Bill]

Bogus

Thanks for the link. By the way, I think Tony is WAY off base. If you read his comments - to Rich , I believe - he somehow thinks scholarships are going to add 3 million in spending. It's almost as if he has no concept as to how things are funded now...

[Bogus Megapardus]

Bogus

Thanks for the link. By the way, I think Tony is WAY off base. If you read his comments - to Rich , I believe - he somehow thinks scholarships are going to add 3 million in spending. It's almost as if he has no concept as to how things are funded now...

I could be way off base here, but I think that Mr. Rhodin might be getting some of his "facts" from inebriated banter on the Lafayette message board. Bad idea.

[carney2]

I've been responding to his article. either he is trolling or he is an idealoque squeezing assumptions into facts to support his argument.;)

Even I responded, and you all know that I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say. His basic argument is poorly researched and somewhat dishonest. I hope he responds to me defensively as he has to others so that we can explore exactly those aspects.

[RichH2]

Even I responded, and you all know that I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say. His basic argument is poorly researched and somewhat dishonest. I hope he responds to me defensively as he has to others so that we can explore exactly those aspects.

Dishonest is what leads me to believe he is trolling for responses. I find it difficult to believe he could actually be as stupid as he is coming off

[Pard4Life]

Even I responded, and you all know that I have absolutely nothing worthwhile to say. His basic argument is poorly researched and somewhat dishonest. I hope he responds to me defensively as he has to others so that we can explore exactly those aspects.

Ha right... his entire premise is flawed. He is probably thinking of the Yost affair. Everyone, including the Ivies, experienced such circumstances. And there was no NCAA or academic index.

[Pard4Life]

Valley Raider... only one of those teams, 2006 Princeton, went on to become Ivy champ... and you lost.

[carney2]

Dishonest is what leads me to believe he is trolling for responses. I find it difficult to believe he could actually be as stupid as he is coming off

Someone "named" McButter has asked for a retraction.

[RichH2]

Someone "named" McButter has asked for a retraction.


Read your comment . Concise , logical and nicely pointed.Notice he has stopped reponding to comments

[TheValleyRaider]

Valley Raider... only one of those teams, 2006 Princeton, went on to become Ivy champ... and you lost.

I was merely providing a list, since people seemed curious

Princeton still needed us to botch a 2-pt conversion in OT to hold on for a 1-point win

Our '06 team, by the way, went 4-7, hardly anything to write home about. How good could we have been, we lost to Lafayette for goodness sakes ;)

[Doc QB]

We wait with bated - not bourbon - breath. Speaking of bourbon, I take umbrage - extreme umbrage - to having my medicinal needs discussed in public. Have you, by the way, tried Jim Beam's latest creation, Devil's Cut? It is to die for.

Blanton's, Carney....Blanton's. I celebrated this news with that very, very fine bourbon.

[Doc QB]

Think the newsmay cheer up Doc Qb a bit also

Made my day...two days late, I've been under a rock it seems.

Best day in PL history!

[Go...gate]

Go check your lifetime records against H-Y-Penn.

You mean to say that those Ivy snobs don't want to come to beautiful Hamilton? What is wrong with those guys?

I actually posted the records on another thread. We have losing records against Harvard and Penn but not by much, and against Yale we have lost many more than we have won, as we used to play them every year when they (like Princeton) were a perennial power. You can only play those who will play you. Penn and Brown abruptly stopped playing us after 1996, Biddle's first year, and Harvard followed shortly thereafter. None of them wanted to play us when we had a chance to win.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Chicago Tribune interview with Ivy commish Robin Harris:




"We enjoy playing Patriot League schools, they're not changing who they are academically, it's a good fit for us to play them when we can. I think that you'll still see our schools playing Patriot League schools, certainly in the near future. Even if there's diminishment of the number of games that we would play them, I still think there are natural rivalries and we're in the geographic region, our academic values are similar. Our schools are still going to have to play teams that offer athletic scholarships . . . .

We have certain rivalries with the Patriot League that I think will continue. There may be other games that stop because there will be reasons to look at other athletic scholarship schools. But, certainly, I like the relationship that we have with the Patriot League and I hope that that continues . . . .

[In the Pioneer League], you start to get into travel issues. So I think that's the other key piece to this, is that the Patriot League is in our footprint . . . ."


http://www.chicagotribune.com/sports/sns-tsn-agn-haley-qanda-harris-20120215,0,2626101.story

[carney2]

Blanton's, Carney....Blanton's. I celebrated this news with that very, very fine bourbon.

Thanks. Blanton's is now at the top of my must try list. Seriously, DQ, have you tried Devil's Cut? Different.

[DFW HOYA]

Getting this thread back to reality, a serious question.

Will the introduction of athletic scholarships by the six Patriot schools...

1) Allow these schools to sign prospects to a binding National Letter of Intent (instead of a likely letter), and
2) Allow coaches the ability to admit qualified recruits directly, as other schools with an NLI have the authority to do?

[carney2]

Getting this thread back to reality, a serious question.

Will the introduction of athletic scholarships by the six Patriot schools...

1) Allow these schools to sign prospects to a binding National Letter of Intent (instead of a likely letter), and
2) Allow coaches the ability to admit qualified recruits directly, as other schools with an NLI have the authority to do?

The whole landscape has changed and you bring up a few of the many details that will baffle and amaze us for the next year or two. I'm betting that no one has a ready answer at this time.

[Seawolf97]

I really think this is going to be real plus for not only the PL but FCS as a whole.Some excellent programs are going to be able compete with the best in FCS and take on FBS programs with a chance at winning.

[MplsBison]

I really think this is going to be real plus for not only the PL but FCS as a whole.Some excellent programs are going to be able compete with the best in FCS and take on FBS programs with a chance at winning.

I'd like to think that too...but they still have the damn AI.

This scholarship business, as great as it is, seems like really just a way for them to try to get some kids that Ivy schools are going after to choose Patriot schools instead.

[DFW HOYA]

I'd like to think that too...but they still have the damn AI.


On this we agree.

The AI was (and is) an accomodation to the Ivies to maintain competitive parity for applicants, so if the PL is moving in another direction, the idea of selecting players by SAT/grade bands needs to go, and revert to the individual schools to decide. Colgate doesn't tell an aspiring government major "Sorry, we can only admit five of you with that specific GPA and SAT score," so why would they do it because of playing football?

[Bogus Megapardus]

I can't imagine abandoning the AI. Even restructuring it is probably out of the question in light of the scholarship decision, which is a big deal for some of these schools. That said, there might come a point where expansion will be out of the question unless some accommodation is made.

[ngineer]

I could be way off base here, but I think that Mr. Rhodin might be getting some of his "facts" from inebriated banter on the Lafayette message board. Bad idea.

The E-T is a horrible rag. They never let facts get in the way of whatever agenda they have. Not that the M-C is any great shakes, but usually try and get the facts somewhat straight.

[Go...gate]

I can't imagine abandoning the AI. Even restructuring it is probably out of the question in light of the scholarship decision, which is a big deal for some of these schools. That said, there might come a point where expansion will be out of the question unless some accommodation is made.

Nor can I. I have a feeling it really made a difference in Colgate's decision.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Having graduated from Bucknell prior to the Patriot League/AI era, the football players always came off a step behind the rest of the students on campus. At the time BU was under 3000 students (now 3800+) and the net impact of 80+ slower-than-the-mean guys did the sport no favors for the sport among the student body, now checkbook-wielding alums. The balance that adherence to academic standards, reinforced by NCAA D1 monitoring and support, really seems to have eroded the bubble which surrounded the fball program.

[Pard4Life]

The AI is the entire reason why scholarships were even palpable at these schools. It's how the Presidents got it past the faculty, especially at LC. If anything, the AI will play just as an important role as before. I don't know if the PL "bands" certain athletes like you state above DFW, but Harvard definitely does.

[RichH2]

Dont believe PL has set bands as IL but all must be above PL floor AI . Will there be a return to school AIs rather than a PL wide floor? Not likely.

[RichH2]

See E-T article now has 31 responses. I'll try to read some later on thia AM . Tony does not want to grasp even the simplest concept that FCS schollies and equivalencies can be split unlike FBS

[colorless raider]

Dont believe PL has set bands as IL but all must be above PL floor AI . Will there be a return to school AIs rather than a PL wide floor? Not likely.

Rich:
The PL has bands. It is important to note they differ by school and that totally impacts recruiting.

[RichH2]

Rich:
The PL has bands. It is important to note they differ by school and that totally impacts recruiting.

Is there some info on this? Where?

[Doc QB]

I'd like to think that too...but they still have the damn AI.

This scholarship business, as great as it is, seems like really just a way for them to try to get some kids that Ivy schools are going after to choose Patriot schools instead.

It is my hope that the scholarships impact those head to head battles with the Ivies somewhat, as losing a local Lehigh Valley RB one year to UPenn and then the next to Princeton, but much more importantly, put us level ground with some of the better athletes we currently can't successfully recruit...The guys chased by Villanova, W&M, Richmond, and Delaware, the academically minded athletes whose parents unfortunately make a little too much money to have a meaningful aid award in the PL, but have skills coveted by the CAA types. And if they land some of these guys on the PL rosters, we have better balance to challenge on a national scale on a consistent basis.

Regardless of the aid models of H-Y-P I am still not totally convinced losing these 'battles' against the Ivies has to date demonstrated anything significant on the field. Its been mostly a 50-50 split for years, with cylces where the Ivies win a few more and then we do, and one team becomes especially dominant from one league for a stretch. I may surely be blinded by a special Lehigh team over the past two years and successes against the Ivies, maybe Patriot League wide their aid plans have impacted the W-L records, but another post showed it is still pretty even and may need more analysis to show their recruiting 'wins' and advantage is true.

[van]

It is my hope that the scholarships impact those head to head battles with the Ivies somewhat, as losing a local Lehigh Valley RB one year to UPenn and then the next to Princeton, but much more importantly, put us level ground with some of the better athletes we currently can't successfully recruit...The guys chased by Villanova, W&M, Richmond, and Delaware, the academically minded athletes whose parents unfortunately make a little too much money to have a meaningful aid award in the PL, but have skills coveted by the CAA types. And if they land some of these guys on the PL rosters, we have better balance to challenge on a national scale on a consistent basis.

Regardless of the aid models of H-Y-P I am still not totally convinced losing these 'battles' against the Ivies has to date demonstrated anything significant on the field. Its been mostly a 50-50 split for years, with cylces where the Ivies win a few more and then we do, and one team becomes especially dominant from one league for a stretch. I may surely be blinded by a special Lehigh team over the past two years and successes against the Ivies, maybe Patriot League wide their aid plans have impacted the W-L records, but another post showed it is still pretty even and may need more analysis to show their recruiting 'wins' and advantage is true.

Agree, availability of merit aid opens up all kinds of previously unavailable possibilities, not just head to head vs IL recruiting. Even some kids that now end up at FBS for example. But for now, only possibilities and it will be interesting to see how they play out over the next 4 years or so. Hopefully better bottom line results than Fordham has had to date.

[RichH2]

Merit aid will indeed result in some fewer "also offered by Lehigh" quotes. This year a wr to FAU, qb to Elon,rb to Buffalo etc etc. Not saying we would've gotten all but we would get more.

[carney2]

See E-T article now has 31 responses. I'll try to read some later on thia AM . Tony does not want to grasp even the simplest concept that FCS schollies and equivalencies can be split unlike FBS

Re the Tony Rhodin blog in the Express-Times, Rhodin ended up having a dialogue with someone calling himself McButter. Many of us considered Rhodin's original blog borderline dishonest and his initial response to McButter uninformed and confrontational. As you point out, Rich, this thing went on and on. To his credit, Rhodin ends up making some very good points and seems to have some information at his disposal - some of it personal and involving family members. Those of us who are still at the "we have scholarships party," may not agree with him, but the additional commentary demonstrates to me that he cannot be dismissed out of hand.

[RichH2]

Ok, Carney, will try to read some today. No argument with his personal viewpoint or his basis for it , just his broad sweeping indictment premised on idealogical assumptions. The impact of merit aid may indeed have a different slant for an individual or his family either prospectively or historically, expansion of that to the decision is bad for both schools hard to justify

[MplsBison]

It is my hope that the scholarships impact those head to head battles with the Ivies somewhat, as losing a local Lehigh Valley RB one year to UPenn and then the next to Princeton, but much more importantly, put us level ground with some of the better athletes we currently can't successfully recruit...The guys chased by Villanova, W&M, Richmond, and Delaware, the academically minded athletes whose parents unfortunately make a little too much money to have a meaningful aid award in the PL, but have skills coveted by the CAA types. And if they land some of these guys on the PL rosters, we have better balance to challenge on a national scale on a consistent basis.

Regardless of the aid models of H-Y-P I am still not totally convinced losing these 'battles' against the Ivies has to date demonstrated anything significant on the field. Its been mostly a 50-50 split for years, with cylces where the Ivies win a few more and then we do, and one team becomes especially dominant from one league for a stretch. I may surely be blinded by a special Lehigh team over the past two years and successes against the Ivies, maybe Patriot League wide their aid plans have impacted the W-L records, but another post showed it is still pretty even and may need more analysis to show their recruiting 'wins' and advantage is true.

Doc, you're one of the PL alumni on this board that I trust to give truthful, unbiased answers.

So if you're saying that there are a significant amount of kids that have CAA talent but would rather go to the PL (for academics, prestige, whatever) - except they were from families who could not afford a PL education but the PL schools couldn't give them money, then I believe it.


Is that what you're saying?

[Bogus Megapardus]

significant

Presumably MplsBison means greater than one standard deviation. She rarely defines her terms. Nor would she understand the results, even if you had crayons and drew pictures.

[colorless raider]

Is there some info on this? Where?

It is in each coaches office'that is it to the best of my knowledge. there are big differences!

[Engineer86]

Agree, availability of merit aid opens up all kinds of previously unavailable possibilities, not just head to head vs IL recruiting. Even some kids that now end up at FBS for example. But for now, only possibilities and it will be interesting to see how they play out over the next 4 years or so. Hopefully better bottom line results than Fordham has had to date.

Harding went to Akron as a preferred walk-on. I wonder what he would have done with a full ride from Lehigh, assuming he fit the AI

[Pard4Life]

It's hard to know the true impact of schollies until we see them in action on the field and in recruiting. We would tab some kids who end up as major CAA contributors and some Ivy and NEC kids as well. We would be able to at least scout more nationally since we don't have to spend so much time sifting through recruits locally. Are we going to be teams like the CAA ie four teams in the top ten? Likely not... but three teams as solid top 25 schools? Yes... it's quite likely. We had three in 2009... and schollies will allow us to build consistent talent depth... isn't that what the well managed teams do?

[MplsBison]

Presumably MplsBison means greater than one standard deviation. She rarely defines her terms. Nor would she understand the results, even if you had crayons and drew pictures.

Clever retort, as always.

To me, it feels like the Patriot League football recruiting motto has gone from this:

"Are you already an elite high school academic who also happens to be a standout player on your high school's football team? Then we invite you to gain admission via the standard process and then join our football team! As a bonus, if you become a talented, contributing member of our team and if our admissions department determines your financial need meets a certain level, our athletic department will provide you with a grant to offset your costs of attending the school."


to this:

"Are you already an elite high school academic who also happens to be a standout player on your high school's football team? Then we invite you to gain admission via the standard process and then join our football team! As a bonus, if you become a talented, contributing member of our team our athletic department will provide you with a scholarship."


Is that really going to result in leveling the playing field with the CAA?

[RichH2]

Clever retort, as always.

To me, it feels like the Patriot League football recruiting motto has gone from this:

"Are you already an elite high school academic who also happens to be a standout player on your high school's football team? Then we invite you to gain admission via the standard process and then join our football team! As a bonus, if you become a talented, contributing member of our team and if our admissions department determines your financial need meets a certain level, our athletic department will provide you with a grant to offset your costs of attending the school."


to this:

"Are you already an elite high school academic who also happens to be a standout player on your high school's football team? Then we invite you to gain admission via the standard process and then join our football team! As a bonus, if you become a talented, contributing member of our team our athletic department will provide you with a scholarship."


Is that really going to result in leveling the playing field with the CAA?

Yup, as I said before merit aid not likely to let us dominate many but we will be able to compete with everyone.

[MplsBison]

No...you already compete with everyone.

It's nice that you compete and don't get blown out. Really, that's cute almost.


How about winning? Wasn't that the original point of the endeavor? Seem to recall that somewhere...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I find it fascinating that Mpls for (literally) years baits us on scholarships, and now that we have them, has turned on a dime to find something else to bait us about. xlolx

[RichH2]

Too bad we dont have a TROLL of the Year award, likely MplsBison would have retired it already.

[DetroitFlyer]

I find it fascinating that Mpls for (literally) years baits us on scholarships, and now that we have them, has turned on a dime to find something else to bait us about. xlolx

It is just her time of the month.

[MplsBison]

I find it fascinating that Mpls for (literally) years baits us on scholarships, and now that we have them, has turned on a dime to find something else to bait us about. xlolx

I was waiting for that! Haha, guilty.

Seriously though...I thought PL scholarships would make me happier than it has. But sadly, I've just become re-depressed about reality: the AI will stifle competitiveness, unnecessarily.

[LUHawker]

I was waiting for that! Haha, guilty.

Seriously though...I thought PL scholarships would make me happier than it has. But sadly, I've just become re-depressed about reality: the AI will stifle competitiveness, unnecessarily.

Ahh, more "reasoning" from the low IQ group. If we follow your logic that maintaining standards stifles competition, why bother having kids take tests, go to high school or go through the college admittance process at all. Heck, why require them to even matriculate?

Give me a break.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Ahh, more "reasoning" from the low IQ group. If we follow your logic that maintaining standards stifles competition, why bother having kids take tests, go to high school or go through the college admittance process at all. Heck, why require them to even matriculate?

Give me a break.

Please remember - it's unseemly to maintain academic admission standards for private colleges. The Obama does not approve.

[MplsBison]

Ahh, more "reasoning" from the low IQ group. If we follow your logic that maintaining standards stifles competition, why bother having kids take tests, go to high school or go through the college admittance process at all. Heck, why require them to even matriculate?

Give me a break.

Nothing wrong with maintaining high admissions standards as long as it's the school's decision to do that.

It's absolutely wrong to require it league wide.


If Fordham wants to "sully" the aggregate test scores of the incoming class by admitting 10 stupid football players -- that's their choice to make. Not Lehigh's or any other Patriot League school.

[Go...gate]

Nothing wrong with maintaining high admissions standards as long as it's the school's decision to do that.

It's absolutely wrong to require it league wide.

If Fordham wants to "sully" the aggregate test scores of the incoming class by admitting 10 stupid football players -- that's their choice to make. Not Lehigh's or any other Patriot League school.

Why? They are private schools.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Football is not the reason any of these PL schools exist. If you cannot compete academically in the classroom, you do not belong. There is no remedial anything in the missions of these schools. I am now living in Albuquerque. I am proud that the University of New Mexico has extra academic support for New Mexican students, athletes and non-, so that any high school graduate in the state can attend the University. It is a part of its mission it takes seriously and as a resident and citizen, I champion that part of its mission. It is a great school that turns out great grads.

To argue you must accept football players unlikely to thrive in the academic environment, does neither those men nor the institution any favors. Further, it is ridiculous to think fitting scholar-athletes cannot be found in sufficient quantities to populate football teams in the PL and the Ancient 8( and all those FBS schools previously mentioned...). You're saying football players are incapable? Are you that sotted with relativism that you feel such standards cannot be applied, anywhere?

Those questions are rhetorical-- please stop the enchantment with your own noise, MB, and spare us further illuminations from your perch.

[Doc QB]

Doc, you're one of the PL alumni on this board that I trust to give truthful, unbiased answers.

So if you're saying that there are a significant amount of kids that have CAA talent but would rather go to the PL (for academics, prestige, whatever) - except they were from families who could not afford a PL education but the PL schools couldn't give them money, then I believe it.


Is that what you're saying?

Not sure if the numbers are significant...it would be a hope of mine and other LU fans. Some of the CAA talent level kids never get an itch to consider PL schools, because of the scholarships offered by them, and we take a back seat. So family income aside, it would be my hope the kids with that talent and grades give us consideration, when they did not in the past. Time will tell.

[van]

Not sure if the numbers are significant...it would be a hope of mine and other LU fans. Some of the CAA talent level kids never get an itch to consider PL schools, because of the scholarships offered by them, and we take a back seat. So family income aside, it would be my hope the kids with that talent and grades give us consideration, when they did not in the past. Time will tell.

Well said.

[Bill]

Nothing wrong with maintaining high admissions standards as long as it's the school's decision to do that.

It's absolutely wrong to require it league wide.


If Fordham wants to "sully" the aggregate test scores of the incoming class by admitting 10 stupid football players -- that's their choice to make. Not Lehigh's or any other Patriot League school.

Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but it's NOT wrong to require it league wide - that's the whole purpose of the league. The league exists, in part, so that like minded academic institutions compete with a relatively level playing field. If a school no longer wishes to require high academic standards - and share those standards with others in the league - they are free to leave. No one forces these schools to maintain high standards, they choose to do so.

[Engineer86]

It's absolutely wrong to require it league wide.

If Fordham wants to "sully" the aggregate test scores of the incoming class by admitting 10 stupid football players -- that's their choice to make. Not Lehigh's or any other Patriot League school.

That is the basic standard of the schools in the league, if a school wants to change that standard, then that school should look for another league. I am sure they can find a league where many football players spell "cat", CAA, or "meat" MVFC. xlolx

Maybe some schools in those types leagues would prefer a league that has a different mission, but still offers football scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

What we (might) have learned this week:

1. Colgate and Lehigh drove this decision. If this was merely Fordham, it wouldn't have received the (near) unanimity from the presidents.

2. Six schools appear to be committing to 60, even Bucknell.

3. Dan Weiss is on board, but it sounds as if the decision was not entirely his.

4. Did the PL force Georgetown's hand for its very public rejection of the new model? GU generally avoids public comment on almost all athletic matters, esp. football: there were no press releases when it was 0-11, no "Kevin Kelly has my full support" statements, no comment on the long ignored MSF, etc. If the PL was smart, they would have not pressed for statements from every PL president extolling the decision--as a result, they have exposed a point of contention for the league going forward and may well lead Georgetown in a visbly different direction.

5. Expansion still remains a hope and not an expectation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. Dan Weiss is on board, but it sounds as if the decision was not entirely his.

It appears there are enough big-money Lafayette donors to tie Weiss' hands on the matter to some degree, that's my take. Mr. Weiss has a very tough highwire to balance.


4. Did the PL force Georgetown's hand for its very public rejection of the new model? GU generally avoids public comment on almost all athletic matters, esp. football: there were no press releases when it was 0-11, no "Kevin Kelly has my full support" statements, no comment on the long ignored MSF, etc. If the PL was smart, they would have not pressed for statements from every PL president extolling the decision--as a result, they have exposed a point of contention for the league going forward and may well lead Georgetown in a visbly different direction.

It probably did, but perhaps they thought that it might nudge football-only Georgetown towards their point of view instead. I still think Georgetown has an awful lot of options merely by adding *some* scholarships and going need-based aid with the rest. IMVHO, even 15-20 split-up "full rides" and the rest as need-based aid could definitely remain competitive.


5. Expansion still remains a hope and not an expectation.

Even you have to admit expansion's odds went up dramatically with this decision. I'm not saying William & Mary is going to drop everything and join the PL, but should anything happen in the CAA over the next few years, the PL is a much more palatable destination now than it was two weeks ago.

[van]

What we (might) have learned this week:

1. Colgate and Lehigh drove this decision. If this was merely Fordham, it wouldn't have received the (near) unanimity from the presidents.

2. Six schools appear to be committing to 60, even Bucknell.

3. Dan Weiss is on board, but it sounds as if the decision was not entirely his.

4. Did the PL force Georgetown's hand for its very public rejection of the new model? GU generally avoids public comment on almost all athletic matters, esp. football: there were no press releases when it was 0-11, no "Kevin Kelly has my full support" statements, no comment on the long ignored MSF, etc. If the PL was smart, they would have not pressed for statements from every PL president extolling the decision--as a result, they have exposed a point of contention for the league going forward and may well lead Georgetown in a visbly different direction.

5. Expansion still remains a hope and not an expectation.

One of the best, if not the best, posts ever from DFW!

[RichH2]

What we (might) have learned this week:

1. Colgate and Lehigh drove this decision. If this was merely Fordham, it wouldn't have received the (near) unanimity from the presidents.

2. Six schools appear to be committing to 60, even Bucknell.




3. Dan Weiss is on board, but it sounds as if the decision was not entirely his.

4. Did the PL force Georgetown's hand for its very public rejection of the new model? GU generally avoids public comment on almost all athletic matters, esp. football: there were no press releases when it was 0-11, no "Kevin Kelly has my full support" statements, no comment on the long ignored MSF, etc. If the PL was smart, they would have not pressed for statements from every PL president extolling the decision--as a result, they have exposed a point of contention for the league going forward and may well lead Georgetown in a visbly different direction.

5. Expansion still remains a hope and not an expectation.

Concise and correct without hyperbole. I am not as pessimistc as some about Hoya's future in PL. Given the extremely ltd options available , IMHO GU will cope somehow.Time will tell for all of us.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I would differ only with DFW's item #4. I think that the presidents' responses (if one includes both "official statements" as well as other published remarks) range from enthusiastic (Fordham) to supportive (Lehigh, Colgate) to tepid (Lafayette, Bucknell) to opposed (Georgetown).

I also think that a majority of PL presidents would "prefer" that the schools be able to compete in Division I in all sports without any scholarships at all. But for a host of reasons they've come to understand that what's going on now does not constitute "competing."

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I would differ only with DFW's item #4. I think that the presidents' responses (if one includes both "official statements" as well as other published remarks) range from enthusiastic (Fordham) to supportive (Lehigh, Colgate) to tepid (Lafayette, Bucknell) to opposed (Georgetown).

I was just going over Bucknell's statements/"support" on the whole matter this morning, and "tepid" was exactly the word I came up with as well. Expect a blog posting on that this afternoon sometime.

I'd say "great minds think alike", but I'm hardly a great mind.

[RichH2]

Agree Bogie, I think they finally understand that showing up on time is not the same as competing,( altho MplsBison seems to think so alsoxbangx)

[MplsBison]

Not sure if the numbers are significant...it would be a hope of mine and other LU fans. Some of the CAA talent level kids never get an itch to consider PL schools, because of the scholarships offered by them, and we take a back seat. So family income aside, it would be my hope the kids with that talent and grades give us consideration, when they did not in the past. Time will tell.

Thanks Doc, but seems you're still dodging a bit with this "I hope..." business.

Shouldn't it already be at least somewhat determinable?


Put it bluntly: how many CAA signees this year could get into LU on their own academic numbers? That's an honest question, 'cuz I don't know.

[MplsBison]

Not to be Mr. Obvious here, but it's NOT wrong to require it league wide - that's the whole purpose of the league. The league exists, in part, so that like minded academic institutions compete with a relatively level playing field. If a school no longer wishes to require high academic standards - and share those standards with others in the league - they are free to leave. No one forces these schools to maintain high standards, they choose to do so.

Does it diminish Lehigh's academic reputation, quality or admissions requirements a single iota if Colgate decides to start accepting students with SAT scores 100 points lower on aggregate than historically?

(the answer is no)

Therefore, you have no leg to stand on.

[Doc QB]

Thanks Doc, but seems you're still dodging a bit with this "I hope..." business. Shouldn't it already be at least somewhat determinable? Put it bluntly: how many CAA signees this year could get into LU on their own academic numbers? That's an honest question, 'cuz I don't know.

Not meant to dodge...I just don't have that answer. Would LOVE to know the numbers regarding the number of CAA signees that had the grades. Knowing the historical make-up of some of those schools general student populations academics and understanding the football athletes will generally be on par or lower, you would be correct in assuming the pool we would like to pursue (CAA talent, solid academics) may not be large. Not a knock on those schools, but just a few years back UMass was still admitting Prop 48 athletes, so you know their particular floor for admissions was quite low, and those guys PL schools could never sniff. However, Richmond, W&M, and Villanova certainly MUST have kids we covet that have both components, but never gave us a second thought.

The best bet would be to target one of the coaches and ask a few, direct questions, which could give us a wealth of potential information.

One, how many kids did you target at the beginning of the recruiting cycle that declined an official visit because their alotted five were to CAA (SoCon or lower level FBS) schools?

Two, how many came for an official visit and had official visits at CAA schools?

Three, how many kids did you offer an athletic department aid package to that had full scholarship offers in the CAA? (Not preferred walk-on status).

Four, anybody change their mind, committing to a PL school only to back out when the CAA full unrestricted cash was offered?

A lot of "How Many" type questions could generate data to answer two broad questions....did PL schools even attack the kids with grades coveted by CAA schools, meaning did we not even bother (because of academics that dont fit versus knowing we did not have a chance given the way the money is doled out), did they not bother investigating us, or did we lose out on those who did give us a look when the dollar signs were flashed in the form of a full ride?

Note...I am excluding the IVY from the above questionnaire, limitless financial aid and low thresholds to be awarded it be damned! Two different kinds of student-athletes here, in my mind. And the PL may sit in between these two leagues now, with who we can recruit. Can we nab the IVY bound guy with grades and wealthy parents or the IVY bound guy with financial need that gives him the unofficial full ride? Maybe the field is more level for some of those guys, but they better be the standouts.

The unknown that remains, how many scholarship athletes are really out there, have we gone after them in the past and lost (I assume yes) or have we never tapped that level of skills/grades before? I can draw on personal experience from 20 yrs ago, but as another poster kindly posted, I tend to reflect on that too often in my posts, so I will refrain.

More importantly, I played with Cecchini in my day, and will talk with him about it at the spring game and golf outing if I can make it. I am sure he will be honest and candid with the very simple questions listed above.

[Bill]

Does it diminish Lehigh's academic reputation, quality or admissions requirements a single iota if Colgate decides to start accepting students with SAT scores 100 points lower on aggregate than historically?

(the answer is no)

Therefore, you have no leg to stand on.

Actually, I have two legs to stand on :)

Bison, your argument is specious at best. Of course Lehigh's reputation would not be diminished.

As for your hypothetical Colgate scenario:

Colgate's AI would then be adjusted. This would take their "new" general standards into account.

Regardless, you are not tying your argument together. Please provide an example of how this relates to the creation and continuation of the league...

[Engineer86]

Does it diminish Lehigh's academic reputation, quality or admissions requirements a single iota if Colgate decides to start accepting students with SAT scores 100 points lower on aggregate than historically?

(the answer is no)

correct, it does not change Lehigh, or any other individual school, but it does change the competitive landscape of the league which is why it is a league issue. Is it that difficult to understand?

If academic standards are an important basis for the league, then it must have been agreed to by league members and thus if they no longer agree, then find a new league. If the league is concerned that too many members will leave then the league should change or remove that standard upon which the league is based.

[Engineer86]

Looking at admission standards, Villanova is as tough or tougher than Lehigh for general students. I doubt they are lowering those standards to much for a football player. If they do, what would they do for a basketball players

[Bogus Megapardus]

Athletes at Patriot schools must compete not only on the field but in the classroom as well - against some of the brainiest propellerheads on earth. That can be a little intimidating. Patriot colleges can be a little scary for high schools seniors. PL institutions tend to come across as very serious and forbidding, and that always will drive some people away. It's been like that forever.

Some scholar-athletes want to attend the most academically difficult college possible. They like the challenge. Others figure that their dedication and contribution on the field (to which non-athletes are not subject) ought to be balanced by academic responsibilities that take into account that contribution. Patriot schools do not offer that sort of accommodation.

Even for a very high performing academic athlete, PL schools definitely are not for everyone. Many will take a step back becasue of the small size, the seriousness and just the sheer difficulty of the places. A recruiting theme for PL schools is that a student can select any one of them and be assured a first-quality education that will be distinctive and will be recognized by knowledgeable employers everywhere. You cannot make a poor choice in the PL. I'm not so sure that the PL is wrong to assure that kind of quality and consistency amongst all of its members.

[ngineer]

Looking at admission standards, Villanova is as tough or tougher than Lehigh for general students. I doubt they are lowering those standards to much for a football player. If they do, what would they do for a basketball players

Not sure what you mean by 'general students'? Lehigh's 'competitiveness' score is higher than Villanova's so I'm not sure what you mean that it is tougher, because I don't think that's the case.

[ngineer]

The League needs to have a balance amongst the schools as to academic rigor. One, it's good for the Leagues overall reputation in attracting top notch students. But you also want the playing field, court, etc, fairly level for everyone with one team knowing that the guys across the field are facing challenging curriculums as well as opposed to just living for football, or whatever sport.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Villanova is as tough or tougher than Lehigh.

Man, I can remember when that was the last thing that anyone would have imagined. Sorry, guys, but it used to be that Villanova was the safety schools to the safety schools.

Then again, the same was said about Boston College.

[Go...gate]

Man, I can remember when that was the last thing that anyone would have imagined. Sorry, guys, but it used to be that Villanova was the safety schools to the safety schools.

Then again, the same was said about Boston College.

I agree.

[Doc QB]

Looking at admission standards, Villanova is as tough or tougher than Lehigh for general students. I doubt they are lowering those standards to much for a football player. If they do, what would they do for a basketball players

They absolultely have lower standards for athletes, especially football and basketball at Villanova. You can't compete nationally in basketball without doing so. Talley does not admit illiterate athletes by any stretch, but to assume they are all high end scholar athletes is really very, very naive and probably absurd.

AND...they do it at Lehigh. LU's general admit scores have gone up for years, becoming more competitive and the football players are not up in those higher ranges. No way. LU even has a summer program for the kids (many athletes) that were marginal admits. They have a number of athletes that have numbers that get them in the lower band AI range. Some of them struggle, some of the better prepared kids struggle, too. School is tough.

[MplsBison]

Not meant to dodge...I just don't have that answer. Would LOVE to know the numbers regarding the number of CAA signees that had the grades. Knowing the historical make-up of some of those schools general student populations academics and understanding the football athletes will generally be on par or lower, you would be correct in assuming the pool we would like to pursue (CAA talent, solid academics) may not be large. Not a knock on those schools, but just a few years back UMass was still admitting Prop 48 athletes, so you know their particular floor for admissions was quite low, and those guys PL schools could never sniff. However, Richmond, W&M, and Villanova certainly MUST have kids we covet that have both components, but never gave us a second thought.

The best bet would be to target one of the coaches and ask a few, direct questions, which could give us a wealth of potential information.

One, how many kids did you target at the beginning of the recruiting cycle that declined an official visit because their alotted five were to CAA (SoCon or lower level FBS) schools?

Two, how many came for an official visit and had official visits at CAA schools?

Three, how many kids did you offer an athletic department aid package to that had full scholarship offers in the CAA? (Not preferred walk-on status).

Four, anybody change their mind, committing to a PL school only to back out when the CAA full unrestricted cash was offered?

A lot of "How Many" type questions could generate data to answer two broad questions....did PL schools even attack the kids with grades coveted by CAA schools, meaning did we not even bother (because of academics that dont fit versus knowing we did not have a chance given the way the money is doled out), did they not bother investigating us, or did we lose out on those who did give us a look when the dollar signs were flashed in the form of a full ride?

Note...I am excluding the IVY from the above questionnaire, limitless financial aid and low thresholds to be awarded it be damned! Two different kinds of student-athletes here, in my mind. And the PL may sit in between these two leagues now, with who we can recruit. Can we nab the IVY bound guy with grades and wealthy parents or the IVY bound guy with financial need that gives him the unofficial full ride? Maybe the field is more level for some of those guys, but they better be the standouts.

The unknown that remains, how many scholarship athletes are really out there, have we gone after them in the past and lost (I assume yes) or have we never tapped that level of skills/grades before? I can draw on personal experience from 20 yrs ago, but as another poster kindly posted, I tend to reflect on that too often in my posts, so I will refrain.

More importantly, I played with Cecchini in my day, and will talk with him about it at the spring game and golf outing if I can make it. I am sure he will be honest and candid with the very simple questions listed above.

Fair enough, sir. Thanks for your candid, lucid thoughts.

[MplsBison]

Actually, I have two legs to stand on :)

Bison, your argument is specious at best. Of course Lehigh's reputation would not be diminished.

As for your hypothetical Colgate scenario:

Colgate's AI would then be adjusted. This would take their "new" general standards into account.

Regardless, you are not tying your argument together. Please provide an example of how this relates to the creation and continuation of the league...

Your argument is that their is some intrinsic benefit to Lehigh being affiliated with the Patriot League, because it enforces a league wide AI.

I just proved there is no such benefit.


Likewise, Stanford plays in a league with public schools - high research public schools - but public schools nonetheless, each of which admits and plays with minimum academic qualifying players. Yet Stanford's academic reputation isn't harmed in the slightest by this arrangement.

Point being, Lehigh could join the CAA right now and fill every single slot in the athletic department with student athletes that meet the minimum requirement at Lehigh. It wouldn't cause a single iota of harm to Lehigh's academic reputation. On the contrary, the school would enjoy an enhanced national profile from the increased athletic exposure and competitiveness. Lehigh would be known just like Navy is known, having a very tough football team filled with very bright students and having one of the top APR's in the country. End of story - because no one outside of Patriot League alumni know about or care a crap about some AI of the league.

It's the school's individual reputation that matters. Not the league's.

[MplsBison]

Athletes at Patriot schools must compete not only on the field but in the classroom as well - against some of the brainiest propellerheads on earth. That can be a little intimidating. Patriot colleges can be a little scary for high schools seniors. PL institutions tend to come across as very serious and forbidding, and that always will drive some people away. It's been like that forever.

Some scholar-athletes want to attend the most academically difficult college possible. They like the challenge. Others figure that their dedication and contribution on the field (to which non-athletes are not subject) ought to be balanced by academic responsibilities that take into account that contribution. Patriot schools do not offer that sort of accommodation.

Even for a very high performing academic athlete, PL schools definitely are not for everyone. Many will take a step back becasue of the small size, the seriousness and just the sheer difficulty of the places. A recruiting theme for PL schools is that a student can select any one of them and be assured a first-quality education that will be distinctive and will be recognized by knowledgeable employers everywhere. You cannot make a poor choice in the PL. I'm not so sure that the PL is wrong to assure that kind of quality and consistency amongst all of its members.

The individual schools in the PL should be assuring that quality of their own student bodies.

It's not Lafayette's place and none of their business what Fordham or Colgate does with their admission standards for general students or student athletes. It doesn't affect Lafayette one way or another - take care of your own house.

[RichH2]

The individual schools in the PL should be assuring that quality of their own student bodies.

It's not Lafayette's place and none of their business what Fordham or Colgate does with their admission standards for general students or student athletes. It doesn't affect Lafayette one way or another - take care of your own house.

As usual you avoid the point repeatedly made here that the AI has nothing whatsoever to do with an idividual school's academic standing or policies. It is solely a tool to require a more even balance WITHIN the PL in the recruiting of prospective student-athletes. The sole premise was that Fordham had an unfair advantage being able to recruit and admit a much broader range of recruits than any other school could even admit.

While I have my own issues with a PL wide AI floor, the PL will always be an academic conference 1st and foremost. Within that context, scholarships will allow us a wider range of student athletes , which hopefully will improve all our football squads.

[Bill]

Bison

You seem to have difficulty accepting the value of schools deciding to join together for their self perception of common good. So, Let's take this further: Youngstown, a conference rival, decides it will start offering 80 football scholarships instead of the current max. Should ND State just worry about their own house? Why should they care what Youngstown is doing?

As for your points:
You "proved" nothing. Their IS an intrinsic - AND extrinsic - benefit for Lehigh to compete in the PL. That's why they CHOOSE to do so. Besides geography, one of the earliest purposes of athletic conferences was for institutions of similar interests to agree to play one another. These schools agreed to follow / abide by similar rules & regulations to have a level and hopefully fair playing field.

You love to mention Stanford. Yes, they offer a superb educational opportunity. They also CHOOSE to compete in the PAC-10/12/14? :) If they don't like it, they could theoretically leave. It's their choice. If they want to play sports against some teams that don't approach their students academically, so be it. Stanford's academic reputation may not be harmed by people in the know, but I assure you their faculty, boards, etc. consider themselves more like Duke than anyone in the PAC-whatever. Stanford does have national recognition going for it. It had that recognition long before they were in that conference.

For the most part, Lehigh and the other PL schools had niche specialties, and were known as strong regional universities. It's really only in the last 30 or so years that these schools have developed a national profile (G-Town excepted). Part of the effects of the PL HAS been to raise their national profiles. They have risen TOGETHER, partly because of their combined academic commitments to excellence. Let's use your CAA example. With all due respect to W&M and Richmond (both excellent schools), I am not convinced that their association with the CAA helps their national academic image - in fact, I believe it hurts it. Many people "not in the know" usually have NO concept how difficult it is to get into those schools, partly because who they associate with.
Your Navy example is absurd - there is NO way to camper the academies with any other schools in the country - it's simply not fair or accurate.

Just remember, these schools CHOOSE to follow rules - like a social contract.

[DFW HOYA]

While I have my own issues with a PL wide AI floor, the PL will always be an academic conference 1st and foremost. Within that context, scholarships will allow us a wider range of student athletes , which hopefully will improve all our football squads.

The range of student-athletes won't change. What changes is the ability to lock in kids financially that are otherwise looking at Georgetown or the Ivies.

[RichH2]

The range of student-athletes won't change. What changes is the ability to lock in kids financially that are otherwise looking at Georgetown or the Ivies.

Which broadens the range of prospective recruits, our ablity to attract more "qualfied kids". Thats my point , not as you imply that academice standards would change.It is a given that they will not

[DFW HOYA]

I'm not implying academic standards would change, only that the pool of roughly 20% of prospects that are recruitable by Ivy and PL teams doesn't change, whether there is merit or need aid.

What does change is that the PL teams with scholarships have a greater ability to sign to those who would otherwise turn down a PL offer because of cost. The pool is the same size, regardless.

[RichH2]

OK, my misunderstanding. Now for The Bison fella to explain why we are all wrong

[Bogus Megapardus]

Just remember, these schools CHOOSE to follow rules - like a social contract.

Why do I imagine that MplsBison has never read Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

[The Historian]

Why do I imagine that MplsBison has never read Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

He is a big fan of Albert Camus.

[Bill]

Why do I imagine that MplsBison has never read Jean-Jacques Rousseau?

I don't know how my liberal arts education came out there :)

Well, if it means anything, I'm trying to keep my conversation safely inside the PL AI ...

[Bogus Megapardus]

He is a big fan of Albert Camus.

I see MplsBison as more of a nihilist.

[ngineer]

I see MplsBison as more of a nihilist.

On both of them?

[Go...gate]

I see MplsBison as more of a nihilist.

Jean-Paul Sartre, perhaps?

[Bogus Megapardus]

Jean-Paul Sartre, perhaps?

Nothing is true or real for MB; there are no moral standards or absolutes, and facts exist only as a matter of perception. More of a Friedrich Nietzsche type than a postmodern nihilist.

MplsNietzsche.

[Go...gate]

Nothing is true or real for MB; there are no moral standards or absolutes, and facts exist only as a matter of perception. More of a Friedrich Nietzsche type than a postmodern nihilist.

MplsNietzsche.

The world's absurdity in general would, indeed, signal Nietzche as MPLS' model, though Kafka might also serve as his polestar.

[Engineer86]

Not sure what you mean by 'general students'? Lehigh's 'competitiveness' score is higher than Villanova's so I'm not sure what you mean that it is tougher, because I don't think that's the case.

I was referring to the SAT scores and other standards listed in the typical college profile reports

Middle 50% of scores
Villanova: Math 620-710, Critical Writing 590-680
Lehigh: Math 640-720, Critical Writing 580-680

Fairly similar, although Lehigh's numbers do not come from the Lehigh website because they no longer show the split in their class profile

[Engineer86]

The League needs to have a balance amongst the schools as to academic rigor. One, it's good for the Leagues overall reputation in attracting top notch students. But you also want the playing field, court, etc, fairly level for everyone with one team knowing that the guys across the field are facing challenging curriculums as well as opposed to just living for football, or whatever sport.

+1 Completely agree

[Bogus Megapardus]

Villanova Law School got caught fudging its admission data big time. Makes you wonder . . .

[Go...gate]

Villanova Law School got caught fudging its admission data big time. Makes you wonder . . .

Admission data, or job placement data?

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Admission data, or job placement data?

Admissions...

It gave us Temple folks a good laugh.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-12/business/29650150_1_law-schools-law-review-averages-and-lsat-scores

[van]

Admissions...

It gave us Temple folks a good laugh.

http://articles.philly.com/2011-06-12/business/29650150_1_law-schools-law-review-averages-and-lsat-scores

Ah, a bad thing happened to lawyers, I feel so bad for them.

[RichH2]

Dare not characterize Mpls with philosophers, strikes me more as a post modern impressionist,the world exists only as he perceives it, the rest is heresy

[Doc QB]

Dare not characterize Mpls with philosophers, strikes me more as a post modern impressionist,the world exists only as he perceives it, the rest is heresy

Damn, all of the literature and philosophy references...I'm starting to feel a little dumb. Can we start talking about Narragansett, Piels, Black Label, and Milwaukee's Best instead? I unfortunately remember more of that from my days on the Hill.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Damn, all of the literature and philosophy references...I'm starting to feel a little dumb. Can we start talking about Narragansett, Piels, Black Label, and Milwaukee's Best instead? I unfortunately remember more of that from my days on the Hill.

Don't forget Natty Boh, a nihilist beer if there ever was one.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Why do I imagine that MplsBison imbibes only pure grain alcohol and rain water, so as not to disrupt his "essence?"

[Go...gate]

Damn, all of the literature and philosophy references...I'm starting to feel a little dumb. Can we start talking about Narragansett, Piels, Black Label, and Milwaukee's Best instead? I unfortunately remember more of that from my days on the Hill.

What? No Genesee, Utica Club, Ballantine or Rheingold?

[Go...gate]

Don't forget Natty Boh, a nihilist beer if there ever was one.

Guenther's, too....

[TheValleyRaider]

What? No Genesee, Utica Club, Ballantine or Rheingold?

There's a bar here in Fort Worth that sells Genny Cream. Good times. Still missing Saranac though (I mean, for those nights we decided to splurge)

[Bogus Megapardus]

There's a bar here in Fort Worth that sells Genny Cream. Good times. Still missing Saranac though (I mean, for those nights we decided to splurge)

I remember Genesee "12 Horse Ale." Pure rot gut, but a right of youthful passage up in the Capital District area. And we had buffalo wings before there was any such thing as buffalo wings. Wings and Horse Ale. Those were the days.

[Pard4Life]

This thread needs to be put out of its misery.

[Bill]

Your wish is my command!http://www.photologger.co.cc/images/Cars/john-belushi-samurai.jpg

[Go...gate]

Nahhh....this thread is just getting started! : )

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think we need something to talk about now that scholarships are happening.

So, how about that Lehigh basketball team, eh? Think they can make the NCAA tourney? xlolx

[carney2]

Damn, all of the literature and philosophy references...I'm starting to feel a little dumb. Can we start talking about Narragansett, Piels, Black Label, and Milwaukee's Best instead? I unfortunately remember more of that from my days on the Hill.

I've rediscovered Ballantine Ale. Was surprised to find out a few years ago that it is still around. It is now my personal favorite. Must be a nostalgia thing.

[Southsider]

I think we need something to talk about now that scholarships are happening.

So, how about that Lehigh basketball team, eh? Think they can make the NCAA tourney? xlolx

The road to the NCAA's still goes through Lewisburg. Taking them out in the PL tournament will be very difficult. It's win or you don't get in!

[Sader87]

<Cough> Holy Cross 54 Bucknell 52 F <cough>......5 in a row for the Saders....plus, lest you people forget, we could have been in the Big East in basketball.....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

<Cough> Holy Cross 54 Bucknell 52 F <cough>......5 in a row for the Saders....plus, lest you people forget, we could have been in the Big East in basketball.....

Believe me, I'll be rooting for a similar outcome in the Patriot League semis against the Bison.

[Pard4Life]

I think we need something to talk about now that scholarships are happening.

So, how about that Lehigh basketball team, eh? Think they can make the NCAA tourney? xlolx

No.

[Ken_Z]

have been away traveling, so apologies if this was covered, but just in case not, i'll divert us back to the core topic of the thread for a moment.

Bravman follow up info (http://www.bucknell.edu/x74875.xml)

confirms what i always postulated, the survival of the league is of sufficient importance to Bucknell to go scholly. same presumably drives Lafayette. Georgtown, is of course a different situation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

This follow-up is making me very happy that I waited to post my Bravman reaction to all this. Expect it to be a longer post, now.

[RichH2]

LU tuition and board now $53,450 annually per BOT announcement this AM. Our cost of schollies just got a tad bigger. Saw Pards went up also.

[Bogus Megapardus]

have been away traveling, so apologies if this was covered, but just in case not, i'll divert us back to the core topic of the thread for a moment.

Bravman follow up info (http://www.bucknell.edu/x74875.xml)

confirms what i always postulated, the survival of the league is of sufficient importance to Bucknell to go scholly. same presumably drives Lafayette. Georgetown, is of course a different situation.

"Patriot League" is becoming a brand name, regardless of what MplsBison thinks. The PL now is the highest academic conference in which a student can get a football scholarship. Second place isn't even close. That's got to count for something.

[ngineer]

LU tuition and board now $53,450 annually per BOT announcement this AM. Our cost of schollies just got a tad bigger. Saw Pards went up also.

Gosh. It was $3200 when I began in 1970. smh.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Tuition (without R&B) always has been about the cost of a very nice new car at PL schools. It hasn't changed.

[RichH2]

Unfortunately xbawlingxI predate you by a decade and tuition was half that and we had daily maid service, weekly laundry and the 21 meal plan. Altho, if I remember the cafeteria food,other than breakfast, it was geared more to increasing Health Center business rather than repeat customers at the cafeteriaxsighxxrolleyesx

[DFW HOYA]

From the above link: "During the deliberations of the Presidents' Council, I have had to accept that any decision of the league to allow football merit aid ultimately would compel Bucknell to make a choice: (1) implement merit aid as the other league participants were likely to do under those circumstances; (2) not implement merit aid and have our football players compete against scholarship athletes weekend after weekend; or (3) end football at Bucknell. Leaving the Patriot League in football, for reasons touched on below, is not a viable option."

Option 4: Pursue a conference where less than 60 is a viable option. Even if he's not willing to fight for it, why not mention the NEC?

[Pard4Life]

At least their President has a brain and realizes the facts and alternatives.

[Pard4Life]

Great comment from Bucknell's president... I am a fan re: option 3 and an answer to DFW above..

As for Option (3), recognizing that we have a football program that is more than 100 years old, enjoys the support of many alumni, opens doors to the University to many outstanding studentathletes, and is part of Bucknell's meaningful participation in the Patriot League, I do not believe it is worth pretending that this is a realistic choice. Amongst other considerations, I believe that the Board would not permit this option, nor would I support it.

[RichH2]

He is definitely not a Levin , who is determined to make Yale the U of Chicago of the Ivies. I like our Pres. Gast but Bison President does set the margin for communication. No academic gobbledy-gook . Here's what we're doing and why. Remarkable

[Bogus Megapardus]

I wish that Dan Weiss could be as articulate and open as John Bravman - and come across even remotely as intelligent. Why did Lafayette have to end up with a president who cannot express himself at all well, in speech or in writing, except in the artsy-fartsy arena in which he is comfortable?

Maybe John Bravman and Alice Gast do not relish the notion of delivering their thoughts to athletic boosters and football alumni, but at least they try to come across as honest and forthright. Sorry, but Dan Weiss comes across as a priggish, patronizing smartass every time he tries.

Hey Dan - looking down at the alumni and pretending that you're smarter than they are in virtually every circumstance does not always come across well. If you worked for me, I'd send you off for some interpersonal skills training and perhaps a bit of remedial education in the sciences. I certainly wouldn't give you much of a year-end bonus.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The Decision: Bucknell's Thoughtful Study

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2012/02/decision-presidential-view-bucknells.html

A whole lot of fascinating stuff in President Bravman's statements, that's for sure.

[Go...gate]

<Cough> Holy Cross 54 Bucknell 52 F <cough>......5 in a row for the Saders....plus, lest you people forget, we could have been in the Big East in basketball.....

The way things are going in the Big East these days, HC may still get in.

When the hell does an EASTERN conference have San Diego State in it?

[Go...gate]

Gosh. It was $3200 when I began in 1970. smh.

Much less in the 1950's and 1960's at Colgate. Frightening how expensive it has become.

[Go...gate]

I've rediscovered Ballantine Ale. Was surprised to find out a few years ago that it is still around. It is now my personal favorite. Must be a nostalgia thing.

I remember when it was brewed in Newark, NJ.

[Engineer86]

LU tuition and board now $53,450 annually per BOT announcement this AM. Our cost of schollies just got a tad bigger. Saw Pards went up also.

Yea, this times 2. It hurts

[Pard4Life]

The way things are going in the Big East these days, HC may still get in.

When the hell does an EASTERN conference have San Diego State in it?

Well then, it wouldn't be that odd to have the San Diego Torreros as associate members now, eh?

[RichH2]

Yea, this times 2. It hurts

I feel your pain. My twins graduated 2 years ago. Never will regret their decision to follow their old man, but boy is it nice to be able to buy an occasional Starbucks now.

[MplsBison]

Bison

You seem to have difficulty accepting the value of schools deciding to join together for their self perception of common good. So, Let's take this further: Youngstown, a conference rival, decides it will start offering 80 football scholarships instead of the current max. Should ND State just worry about their own house? Why should they care what Youngstown is doing?

As for your points:
You "proved" nothing. Their IS an intrinsic - AND extrinsic - benefit for Lehigh to compete in the PL. That's why they CHOOSE to do so. Besides geography, one of the earliest purposes of athletic conferences was for institutions of similar interests to agree to play one another. These schools agreed to follow / abide by similar rules & regulations to have a level and hopefully fair playing field.

You love to mention Stanford. Yes, they offer a superb educational opportunity. They also CHOOSE to compete in the PAC-10/12/14? :) If they don't like it, they could theoretically leave. It's their choice. If they want to play sports against some teams that don't approach their students academically, so be it. Stanford's academic reputation may not be harmed by people in the know, but I assure you their faculty, boards, etc. consider themselves more like Duke than anyone in the PAC-whatever. Stanford does have national recognition going for it. It had that recognition long before they were in that conference.

For the most part, Lehigh and the other PL schools had niche specialties, and were known as strong regional universities. It's really only in the last 30 or so years that these schools have developed a national profile (G-Town excepted). Part of the effects of the PL HAS been to raise their national profiles. They have risen TOGETHER, partly because of their combined academic commitments to excellence. Let's use your CAA example. With all due respect to W&M and Richmond (both excellent schools), I am not convinced that their association with the CAA helps their national academic image - in fact, I believe it hurts it. Many people "not in the know" usually have NO concept how difficult it is to get into those schools, partly because who they associate with.
Your Navy example is absurd - there is NO way to camper the academies with any other schools in the country - it's simply not fair or accurate.

Just remember, these schools CHOOSE to follow rules - like a social contract.

And you call my arguments specious? Bill, your above post is called a "bait and switch".

I was arguing against there being any value of Lehigh being in a Patriot League with an AI enforced and you try to switch the argument to there being any value of Lehigh being in the Patriot League, period.


I'm just fine with high academic schools wanting to be in a conference together. Good for them. And they did so for many, many years prior to the notion of AI ever being brought up. So why was the AI only very recently implemented in the PL, if it has always been such a grand thing?

[MplsBison]

Why do I imagine that MplsBison imbibes only pure grain alcohol and rain water, so as not to disrupt his "essence?"

You took your entire month's prescription of pain killers in a couple days?

[MplsBison]

"Patriot League" is becoming a brand name, regardless of what MplsBison thinks. The PL now is the highest academic conference in which a student can get a football scholarship. Second place isn't even close. That's got to count for something.

Why? I've never heard of a student athlete being given a scholarship to play for a team called "Patriot League".


Stanford is the highest academic institution in which a student can get a football scholarship. After that it's some order of Northwestern, Duke, Rice, etc.

If you allow the definition to be the highest academic institution in which a student can obtain financial aid from the institution itself, then you bring in the Ivy league as well as the UAA, Johns Hopkins, etc.


All of these are well above every institution in the Patriot League. That you try to band together in hopes of a cumulative effective perception is commendable - but not at the expense of losing institutional freedom to self control the student athletes it admits.

[Bogus Megapardus]

You took your entire month's prescription of pain killers in a couple days?


No. It's just that your fascinating approach to logical discourse reminds me of someone, in addition to those who postulate nihilism/absurdity theories. You wouldn't get it, so just try to relax there, little lady.


http://cinemafanatic.files.wordpress.com/2011/09/dr_strangelove_sterling_hayden.jpg

[Bill]

.


I'm just fine with high academic schools wanting to be in a conference together. Good for them. And they did so for many, many years prior to the notion of AI ever being brought up. So why was the AI only very recently implemented in the PL, if it has always been such a grand thing?

The AI, in one form or another, has been in use in Patriot League since it was created:
"The academic index is a core principle of the Patriot League that is designed to admit student-athletes that are academically representative of the institution. It is a formula derived from a combination of test scores and high school performance. The index had not undergone any significant review or adjustment since it was implemented in late 1980s. "
This information is taken from http://www.patriotleague.org/genrel/061308aab.html The release covers one of the last changes in the formula back in 2008...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Stanford is the highest academic institution in which a student can get a football scholarship. After that it's some order of Northwestern, Duke, Rice, etc.

Selling Harvard and Yale a bit short, are we?

[dcf]

Mpls Bison: All of these are well above every institution in the Patriot League.

"Well above" is a matter of opinion, I guess, but there are a lot of students that prefer Georgetown to a number of Ivies, Hopkins, Northwestern, Duke, etc., even Stanford. I would imagine that to also be true of other Patriot schools as well.

[Bogus Megapardus]

Let's say you're at a barbeque at neighbor's home, or at collegial business function, or attending your kid's little league game with some close friends. You're continuing a long-standing discussion with the others - a topic each of you had discussed in length in the past, and certainly will do so again. It could be any topic, but it's one that is of common interest to all involved in the discussion.

All of a sudden this guy shows up. He presents himself in the middle of the circle of friends, blocking each participant's view of the other, and he just stands there. He's not really listening, or trying to learn, or inquiring about the topic of the discussion, of which he knows nothing and as to which he has no background or relevant insight whatsoever.

In the middle of the discussion, just as two of the participants were coming to an understanding on a particular point of view, the stranger stands uncomfortably close to one of them, directly face to face (so as to obliterate the chance that anyone else could speak), and in a loud, repetitive tone begins to take issue with out-of context snippets of the conversation. The participants in the conversation politely try to move away, but the unwelcome visitor follows the group, step for step, and amplifies his insistence that each of them is wrong, though he never quite is able to articulate a basis for so concluding.

The flummoxed expressions on the friends' faces silently suggest what each is thinking - "Excuse me, but I wasn't talking to you."

Remind you of anyone?

[ngineer]

"Well above" is a matter of opinion, I guess, but there are a lot of students that prefer Georgetown to a number of Ivies, Hopkins, Northwestern, Duke, etc., even Stanford. I would imagine that to also be true of other Patriot schools as well.

Beat me to it. Certainly some of the above have reputations of higher academic rigor, but not all. The PL schools, for the most part, find themselves in the company of these other fine schools very frequently in various scenarios.

[ngineer]

Let's say you're at a barbeque at neighbor's home, or at collegial business function, or attending your kid's little league game with some close friends. You're continuing a long-standing discussion with the others - a topic each of you had discussed in length in the past, and certainly will do so again. It could be any topic, but it's one that is of common interest to all involved in the discussion.

All of a sudden this guy shows up. He presents himself in the middle of the circle of friends, blocking each participant's view of the other, and he just stands there. He's not really listening, or trying to learn, or inquiring about the topic of the discussion, of which he knows nothing and as to which he has no background or relevant insight whatsoever.

In the middle of the discussion, just as two of the participants were coming to an understanding on a particular point of view, the stranger stands uncomfortably close to one of them, directly face to face (so as to obliterate the chance that anyone else could speak), and in a loud, repetitive tone begins to take issue with out-of context snippets of the conversation. The participants in the conversation politely try to move away, but the unwelcome visitor follows the group, step for step, and amplifies his insistence that each of them is wrong, though he never quite is able to articulate a basis for so concluding.

The flummoxed expressions on the friends' faces silently suggest what each is thinking - "Excuse me, but I wasn't talking to you."

Remind you of anyone?

I think he's lonely. (;-)

[RichH2]

Let's say you're at a barbeque at neighbor's home, or at collegial business function, or attending your kid's little league game with some close friends. You're continuing a long-standing discussion with the others - a topic each of you had discussed in length in the past, and certainly will do so again. It could be any topic, but it's one that is of common interest to all involved in the discussion.

All of a sudden this guy shows up. He presents himself in the middle of the circle of friends, blocking each participant's view of the other, and he just stands there. He's not really listening, or trying to learn, or inquiring about the topic of the discussion, of which he knows nothing and as to which he has no background or relevant insight whatsoever.

In the middle of the discussion, just as two of the participants were coming to an understanding on a particular point of view, the stranger stands uncomfortably close to one of them, directly face to face (so as to obliterate the chance that anyone else could speak), and in a loud, repetitive tone begins to take issue with out-of context snippets of the conversation. The participants in the conversation politely try to move away, but the unwelcome visitor follows the group, step for step, and amplifies his insistence that each of them is wrong, though he never quite is able to articulate a basis for so concluding.

The flummoxed expressions on the friends' faces silently suggest what each is thinking - "Excuse me, but I wasn't talking to you."

Remind you of anyone?



Does indeed, unfortunately Mpls Bison wont see it and even if he/she did wouldn'tcare

[MplsBison]

The AI, in one form or another, has been in use in Patriot League since it was created:
"The academic index is a core principle of the Patriot League that is designed to admit student-athletes that are academically representative of the institution. It is a formula derived from a combination of test scores and high school performance. The index had not undergone any significant review or adjustment since it was implemented in late 1980s. "
This information is taken from http://www.patriotleague.org/genrel/061308aab.html The release covers one of the last changes in the formula back in 2008...

OK, fair enough - my fault for not knowing that actual Patriot League is not very old. I just assumed that since Lehigh and Lafayette have played over 100 years that surely they would've been in the same conference for that long and therefore it must have always been the PL.

In my defense, something did change very recently in the PL regarding the AI, I assume because Fordham "won too much". I'm going to assume this is discussed in your link, have not clicked it.



So - of course - the gist of my reason still stands, unchallenged by you.

Why did Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Bucknell, etc. all wait until only 20 some years ago to form the PL and institute an AI scheme?

And even more directly at the point - let's pretend that the core schools in the PL now had been together in another conference prior to that for many years, with no AI. Wouldn't they have enjoyed the exact same collective perception benefit that the high academic similarities would have generated? Of course they would.


Face it Bill, the AI itself adds nothing. Whatever value there is to be had in a collective arrangement of the PL schools exists only in the fact that they are together and that each school individually maintains high standards. No league rule requiring each school in the league to admit only very few "dumb kids" is going to add any iota of additional benefit. The only possible result will be decreased competitiveness in intercollegiate athletics - which is completely unnecessary, as schools like Stanford, et al. prove today.

[MplsBison]

Selling Harvard and Yale a bit short, are we?

You can get a football scholarship at Harvard and Yale?

[MplsBison]

Let's say you're at a barbeque at neighbor's home, or at collegial business function, or attending your kid's little league game with some close friends. You're continuing a long-standing discussion with the others - a topic each of you had discussed in length in the past, and certainly will do so again. It could be any topic, but it's one that is of common interest to all involved in the discussion.

All of a sudden this guy shows up. He presents himself in the middle of the circle of friends, blocking each participant's view of the other, and he just stands there. He's not really listening, or trying to learn, or inquiring about the topic of the discussion, of which he knows nothing and as to which he has no background or relevant insight whatsoever.

In the middle of the discussion, just as two of the participants were coming to an understanding on a particular point of view, the stranger stands uncomfortably close to one of them, directly face to face (so as to obliterate the chance that anyone else could speak), and in a loud, repetitive tone begins to take issue with out-of context snippets of the conversation. The participants in the conversation politely try to move away, but the unwelcome visitor follows the group, step for step, and amplifies his insistence that each of them is wrong, though he never quite is able to articulate a basis for so concluding.

The flummoxed expressions on the friends' faces silently suggest what each is thinking - "Excuse me, but I wasn't talking to you."

Remind you of anyone?

Do I post on Lehigh and Lafayette boards? No.


AGS is a public forum, open to all fans of FCS schools. Furthermore, that the format of the forum is "threads" absolutely does not mean that each thread is it's own little private brandy and cigar room! AGS is a completely open warehouse of conversations.


Why not just say what you really mean: if I was not from NDSU and as long as I agreed with everything you said and conformed to the PL posters ideals, you wouldn't have any problem with me posting in "your" threads.

[RichH2]

Geez, still on it. AI, in its current form is SOLELY intended to even the recruiting field INSIDE the PL . As noted repeatedly , Fordham had a distinct perceived advantage in recruiting as it could admit football players that could not be admitted to any other PL school. Prior to that AI was merely a rule that a school's football recruits had to fit within the parameters of their class at each school with no PL wide minmum as now.

To compare now with the pre Colonial-Patriot League while a nice trip down memory lane for me serves no purpose now as Northeast football back then much less structured and competitive as today. Heck, I played in the Middle 5 , Bucknell, gettysburg ,Lehigh , lafayette and Rutgers add in Delaware with the MAC. Criteria back then was mainly geographic and commitment level to football.

[MplsBison]

Geez, still on it. AI, in its current form is SOLELY intended to even the recruiting field INSIDE the PL . As noted repeatedly , Fordham had a distinct perceived advantage in recruiting as it could admit football players that could not be admitted to any other PL school. Prior to that AI was merely a rule that a school's football recruits had to fit within the parameters of their class at each school with no PL wide minmum as now.

To compare now with the pre Colonial-Patriot League while a nice trip down memory lane for me serves no purpose now as Northeast football back then much less structured and competitive as today. Heck, I played in the Middle 5 , Bucknell, gettysburg ,Lehigh , lafayette and Rutgers add in Delaware with the MAC. Criteria back then was mainly geographic and commitment level to football.

Ah ha! So I wasn't really wrong in the first place.

The "real" AI of today wasn't instituted until very recently.


So all this high brow crowing about how glorious the PL brand is because of the AI is really just the hogwash I thought it was. It was all really just designed to reign in one member who was signing up too many "dumb kids" to play football - and that wasn't fair to the other members who were trying hard to make sure they didn't recruit too many "dumb kids" !!

[Bogus Megapardus]

Do I post on Lehigh and Lafayette boards?
No, but you lurk there. It leaves a telltale odor.


If I was not from NDSU and as long as I agreed with everything you said and conformed to the PL posters ideals, you wouldn't have any problem with me posting in "your" threads.
We like NDSU and its posters very much. It's a great school with a terrific football team. Thankfully, no one here considers you as being "from NDSU." If fact, I doubt you went there.

[Engineer86]

Ah ha! So I wasn't really wrong in the first place.The "real" AI of today wasn't instituted until very recently.
So all this high brow crowing about how glorious the PL brand is because of the AI is really just the hogwash I thought it was. It was all really just designed to reign in one member who was signing up too many "dumb kids" to play football - and that wasn't fair to the other members who were trying hard to make sure they didn't recruit too many "dumb kids" !!

Yep, you are correct. Sorry we actually only instituted the AI so that neither you nor your offspring could play for a patriot league school. It is a league rule, if a school does not like it, there are other leagues, but they obviously see value in the rule and the league, so get over it.