NCAA debating cuts in scholarships

[swaghook]

The NCAA is debating cuts in scholarships for the FBS and the FCS. Didn't they do enough when they gutted D-II? IMO they should be allowing more scholarships for the FCS schools and leave the FBS schools at 85.

http://eye-on-collegefootball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/24156338/34357912

[AppMan]

While I would like to see FCS go up to 70 that isn't going to happen. Too much pressure from the smaller FCS schools wanting to cut costs. Back in 1991 when the NCAA reduced scholarships by 10% a lot of my friends were concerned loosing 7 scholarships would hurt ASU's ability to compete. I asked them to consider it from a completely different point of view. There are 11 1-A programs the region ASU primarily recruits (NC, SC, VA and GA) meaning there would be 110 additional 1-A caliber players available to ASU. Although we lost 7 scholarships our team became more talented! With the number of new FCS programs in the region (ODU, UNCC, & GA State the primary competitors) these days, this action is welcome news in my mind. If it passes the FCS talent pool in our area will be 55 FBS caliber players deeper. In this case the glass is definitely half full.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

I'm not a fan of any reductions at the FCS level either. If the FBS teams lose five and we only lose three, at least that brings us a little closer, but I'd rather see no reductions at all, or just reductions at the FBS level.

A reduction in three football scholarships also means three women's team scholarships have to go.

[Redhawk2010]

A reduction in three football scholarships also means three women's team scholarships have to go.

I'll bet at a lot of schools that wouldn't be the case.

I think it's interesting if the NCAA is considering cutting scholarships as they're also in the process of giving an additional $2k per athlete for "cost of attendance"...

[swaghook]

If it is the cost of the athletic programs and the ability to compete, they should be looking at salary caps for coaching staff not scholarships. The real money spent to run with the big boys is in coaching not scholarships.

[DFW HOYA]

If it is the cost of the athletic programs and the ability to compete, they should be looking at salary caps for coaching staff not scholarships. The real money spent to run with the big boys is in coaching not scholarships.

Not sure about that. How many I-AA schools have coaches in any sport manking that kind of money? Not many.

[MplsBison]

I'll accept less scholarships in FCS on the condition that we get a scholarship minimum.

[mainejeff]

I'd like to see them go to 60/80 for FCS/FBS.

[MplsBison]

I'd like to see them go to 60/80 for FCS/FBS.

40/60 and 70/80 sounds right for a min/max in FCS and FBS respectively.

[FargoBison]

I'd like to see a min that is at least at the DII max. If school doesn't want to fund that then they forfeit any chance to be playoff eligible. Yep I'm looking at you PFL.

[AppMan]

The NCAA should just apply Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a) to FCS as well. It states a school must fund 90% of the permissible maximum number of overall football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two year period.

[Saint3333]

I'll accept less scholarships in FCS on the condition that we get a scholarship minimum.

This may be the first time I've agreed with you on anything, but I've been preaching this for years.

[El Gato]

If it is the cost of the athletic programs and the ability to compete, they should be looking at salary caps for coaching staff not scholarships. The real money spent to run with the big boys is in coaching not scholarships.

This.
Still find it hard to believe that Mack Brown makes $5 million at UT, and Barnes (basketball coach) makes $2 million a year. These two guys are the highest paid government employees in the state of Texas. Their baseball coach, Augie Garrido, comes in 16th with a salary of $900,000.

Source: someone posted this link over on bobcatfans.com: http://www.texastribune.org/library/data/government-employee-salaries/

[DetroitFlyer]

Wow, an entire thread, (almost), of FBS wannabeism.... Read the thread and you will be able to tell who is infected. Sad really.... One can only hope that those infected will one day find their team in the promised land of FBS. Until then, all we can do is feel sorry for them. One of the reasons that FCS is interesting is that teams and conferences do things a bit differently. There is room for those State U's that suffer from FBS wannabeism in the realm of the teams that are in FCS for the original reason, COST CONTAINMENT! Here is a thought for those poor infected souls.... Work with your programs to get them moved to FBS and please do not let the door hit you on the way out!xnodx

[MplsBison]

Wow, an entire thread, (almost), of FBS wannabeism.... Read the thread and you will be able to tell who is infected. Sad really.... One can only hope that those infected will one day find their team in the promised land of FBS. Until then, all we can do is feel sorry for them. One of the reasons that FCS is interesting is that teams and conferences do things a bit differently. There is room for those State U's that suffer from FBS wannabeism in the realm of the teams that are in FCS for the original reason, COST CONTAINMENT! Here is a thought for those poor infected souls.... Work with your programs to get them moved to FBS and please do not let the door hit you on the way out!xnodx

FCS has nothing to do with cost containment. What a lie.

It's the PFL schools that would prefer FCS dragged down to zero scholarships that are in the wrong place.


What's worse, FBS wannabe or DIII wannbe?

[DFW HOYA]

FCS has nothing to do with cost containment. What a lie.


You may want to check to see why the subdivision was created in the first place:

1. To provide post-season opportunities to conferences outside the bowl system (which in the mid-70's was only 12: Rose, Cotton, Sugar, Orange, Fiesta, Sun, Gator, Tangerine, Peach, Liberty, Bluebonnet, and Independence. Yes, it was possible to be in the Top 25 and not be invited to a bowl game.)

2. To provide cost-containment opportunities for the seven conferences that chose not to compete at the 105 scholarship major college level, reduced to 95 the next year: Yankee, Southern, Big Sky, Ohio Valley, Southland, MEAC, and SWAC. Of these, the SoCon was the only conference which had been a University Division (Div. I) conference throughout and had not upgraded from the College Division (Div.II) or the NAIA.

[MplsBison]

You may want to check to see why the subdivision was created in the first place:

1. To provide post-season opportunities to conferences outside the bowl system (which in the mid-70's was only 12: Rose, Cotton, Sugar, Orange, Fiesta, Sun, Gator, Tangerine, Peach, Liberty, Bluebonnet, and Independence. Yes, it was possible to be in the Top 25 and not be invited to a bowl game.)

2. To provide cost-containment opportunities for the seven conferences that chose not to compete at the 105 scholarship major college level, reduced to 95 the next year: Yankee, Southern, Big Sky, Ohio Valley, Southland, MEAC, and SWAC. Of these, the SoCon was the only conference which had been a University Division (Div. I) conference throughout and had not upgraded from the College Division (Div.II) or the NAIA.

Both are legitimate reasons for their time. But still, that's way, way, way apples to oranges compared to what DetroitFlyer wants.

You're talking cost containment from a Lamborghini to a Porche. Reasonable.

He's sitting back there in a 1990 Toyota Corolla going "hey guys! this is where the division should be! back here!!". I (and others) are saying "look guy, if you want to be on the autobahn - at least drive a damn sports car. You prick."

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The NCAA should just apply Bylaw 20.9.7.4-(a) to FCS as well. It states a school must fund 90% of the permissible maximum number of overall football grants-in-aid per year over a rolling two year period.

This would make FCS better! Either play D1 Football or don't. I-AA was created to allow "Small College" Football schools to remain D1 for their basketball programs. Directional U's and schools in small-population states have spent the money and thrived in I-AA while schools in the Pioneer and Ivy conferences have maintained D1 status for other sports while putting a D3 Football product on the field.

The NCAA is run by Academic Elitists who bully smaller poor schools while simultaneously kowtowing to the Big Money.

[DFW HOYA]

This would make FCS better! Either play D1 Football or don't. I-AA was created to allow "Small College" Football schools to remain D1 for their basketball programs. Directional U's and schools in small-population states have spent the money and thrived in I-AA while schools in the Pioneer and Ivy conferences have maintained D1 status for other sports while putting a D3 Football product on the field. The NCAA is run by Academic Elitists who bully smaller poor schools while simultaneously kowtowing to the Big Money.

In 1978, I-AA was created with 38 schools and a four team playoff. It had nothing to do with basketball.

[Wallace]

and the Ivy and Pioneer Football Leagues do not put "a D3 Football product on the field" if you look at their leaders.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

and the Ivy and Pioneer Football Leagues do not put "a D3 Football product on the field" if you look at their leaders.

Kind of hard to find out in the Ivy's case when they rarely defeat OOC opponents.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

Maybe the PL was actually ahead of the curve on this one? It's very possible they've known this was (potentially) coming for the last 3 years.

[DFW HOYA]

Maybe the PL was actually ahead of the curve on this one? It's very possible they've known this was (potentially) coming for the last 3 years.

Nothing of the sort is coming. The NCAA runs 30-odd sports and I-A football is the only one with a scholarship requirement--not even men's basketball maintains scholarship minimums.

[MplsBison]

Nothing of the sort is coming. The NCAA runs 30-odd sports and I-A football is the only one with a scholarship requirement--not even men's basketball maintains scholarship minimums.

FBS football - 85 scholarships. FCS football - 63 scholarships.


What's the next highest sport? Somewhere in the 20's? And that's probably DII football. What's DI men's bball, 13 scholarships?

Apples and oranges. You knew that, of course.

[DFW HOYA]

FBS football - 85 scholarships. FCS football - 63 scholarships.
What's the next highest sport? Somewhere in the 20's? And that's probably DII football. What's DI men's bball, 13 scholarships? Apples and oranges. You knew that, of course.

Different discussion. I'm simply saying that the NCAA is not in the scholarship minimum business. I-AA was specifically constructed to be a catch-all for Division I programs considered outside of the major college level when 105 scholarships was considered unlikely for these schools to aspire to.

What is to be gained by the Ivy, Pioneer, and a few SWAC schools out of playoff eligibility--they're already out of playoff eligibility! Putting in a scholarship minimum doesn't really change this equation, and these schools aren't leaving Division I in either circumstance.

[49RFootballNow]

FBS football - 85 scholarships. FCS football - 63 scholarships.


What's the next highest sport? Somewhere in the 20's? And that's probably DII football. What's DI men's bball, 13 scholarships?

Apples and oranges. You knew that, of course.

Women's Rowing offers 20 scholarships that can be partialed out. Its the next highest number required after football.

[FargoBison]

The minimums should only be for playoff eligibility, I don't think any school should have to have certain number of scholarships to be in the FCS but if they want to compete in the playoffs and more specifically get an autobid for their conference I think they need to show some kind of minimum commitment.

I'm sure PFL fans will disagree but I disagree with their DIII model of play getting an autobid into the playoffs and further watering it down. If they want playoffs they need to adapt to the NEC or PL model.

[AppMan]

In 1978, I-AA was created with 38 schools and a four team playoff. It had nothing to do with basketball.

Yes 1-aa was created in 1978 and it was sold as a "cost containment" level of football, but only the Big Sky, Yankee, OVC, SWAC and MEAC were involved until 1982 when the Southern and Southland were forced into the division. The MAC was reclassified briefly, but appealed and hung on to 1-A status. The MVC operated as a hybrid league until breaking up in 1985 to form the Gateway Conference. The big change came in 1995 when the NCAA adopted a rule preventing Division I basketball schools from competing at D-II & D-III in football. The single rule infused 1-aa with 30 non/low scholarshio programs and the disparity in commitment we see today. Can you say with a straight face schools like Georgetown (with its 2500 seat stadium) has anything in common with schools in the CAA, Southern Southland, and Big Sky?

[The Eagle's Cliff]

I think what bothers me the most is that many of the schools in the Pioneer and Ivy have the resources to compete but choose to stay inside the Country Club so as not to mix with the rabble. It's one of the great ironies that the NCAA and the "elite" educational institutions are constantly telling everyone how much they value "diversity" by championing Title IX and Affirmative Action on one hand while tweaking rules on the other to insure the "have-not's" keep their distance from the threshold of the "Have's" who have lifetime membership.

I have a lot more respect for the Patriot and MEAC schools for at least trying to compete (and succeeding occasionally) than the Ivy's and SWAC for staying in their Little Ponds and allowing idiot Sports Writers to give them votes in National Polls. I understand the athlete's don't have any control over that, but it's guilt by association to me.

This next BCS contract will see even more realignment and it will go even further to separate the Big Boys from the rest of us and the rich schools will get richer along with ESPN and the NCAA itself. In this environment, the have-not's will have an even harder time selling a product that will be ignored and deemed irrelevant.

[Saint3333]

Wow, an entire thread, (almost), of FBS wannabeism.... Read the thread and you will be able to tell who is infected. Sad really.... One can only hope that those infected will one day find their team in the promised land of FBS. Until then, all we can do is feel sorry for them. One of the reasons that FCS is interesting is that teams and conferences do things a bit differently. There is room for those State U's that suffer from FBS wannabeism in the realm of the teams that are in FCS for the original reason, COST CONTAINMENT! Here is a thought for those poor infected souls.... Work with your programs to get them moved to FBS and please do not let the door hit you on the way out!xnodx

If the FCS consisted of programs that cared about football and put forth the minimum resources many of the pro-FBS fans wouldn't mind staying in the FCS. I hate the rule that Div 1 basketball programs have to have Div. 1 football. Let those basketball schools that could care less about football drop down to D2 or D3 and stop the charade.

I'm fine with the FCS going to 60 scholarships.

[Model Citizen]

If [PFL] want playoffs they need to adapt to the NEC or PL model.

An April Board of Directors vote will give the PFL an autobid, beginning in 2013, but thanks for your opinion.

[FargoBison]

An April Board of Directors vote will give the PFL an autobid, beginning in 2013, but thanks for your opinion.

Which is a complete joke, but that is just my opinion as well of course.

[DFW HOYA]

The big change came in 1995 when the NCAA adopted a rule preventing Division I basketball schools from competing at D-II & D-III in football. The single rule infused 1-aa with 30 non/low scholarshio programs and the disparity in commitment we see today. Can you say with a straight face schools like Georgetown (with its 2500 seat stadium) has anything in common with schools in the CAA, Southern Southland, and Big Sky?

Let's see if I can answer these questions:

1. Ther 1991 (not 1995) decision at the NCAA convention affected 27 (not 30) schools. Care to guess how many of these are non-scholarship today? Eight.

Of the 27 affected schools today, one went I-A (UAB), one dropped the sport before the 1993 implementation date (Santa Clara, a D-II scholarship program), eight dropped football entirely (Iona, Siena, St. John's, Canisius, St. Peter's, Evansville, Cal-Northridge, and St. Mary's) and nine are playing in 40-63 scholarship conferences (Cal Poly, Sacramento State, Southern Utah, Charleston Southern, Wagner, Monmouth, Central Connecticut, Duquesne, St. Francis.

Again, it's eight teams out of 126 you're complaining about. If there's some huge angst with the on field performance of seven Pioneer programs (Butler, Dayton, Drake, San Diego, Valpo, Davidson, Marist) and one Patriot program (Georgetown), it certainly hasn't been apparent.

2. Can I say with a straight face schools like Georgetown has anything in common with schools in the CAA, Southern, Southland, and Big Sky? Well, do these schools have anything in common with Georgetown? A select few, perhaps. Georgetown shares an early American academic heritage with a great school like William & Mary and a Big East heritage with Villanova. It was playing major college football alongside the best programs in the nation when North Dakota Agricultural College and the Sam Houston Nornal Institute were just getting their feet wet. In fact, Georgetown was playing football (1881) before many of the SoCon, SLC, Big Sky, and CAA schools were even founded.

When tuition was $200 a year, its 81 scholarship program was doable. Not so much now. Like a lot of schools without on-campus football facilities to all back on, it became prohibitive to do so, and Georgetown dropped FB from 1951-63. Yet, Georgetown revived and has maintained intercollegiate football for nearly 50 years to provide its students competitive opportunities, not to boost enrollment or secure attention on ESPNU.

No one would like a better football home more than me. There is zero land--repeat, zero-- to build the kind of facilities that JMU and others can provide, but the Nation's Capital isn't exactly Harrisonburg, either. This is a part of the world where if a homeowner wants to put up a single piece of fencing or a window shade, it requires at least two oversight boards to approve it, and I'm not kidding.

But that's not the only measure of an athletic department, either. A 29-sport athletic program (more than any school outside the Ivies) takes a longer view than the size of the football practice facility and that can take a toll on football. But that's part of the academic-athletic mix at any school--and unless you're state funded and have a friend in the legislature, private schools have to make tough decisions. That doesn't mean football has no place or it's being run solely to prop up basketball--football certainly isn't a problem at Gonzaga or Pepperdine or Providence, is it? But those schools had no football tradition, either. Like Villanova, football has a history on the campus and a level of commitment withon the overall university--Villanova has more to spend, but they can absorb losses Georgetown can't for institutional reasons, and they fund fewer sports as well. And unless the PL is ready to expel Georgetown, the cost-benefit to spending $5 million on football isn't there.

So Georgetown isn't like a Southland or Big Sky school. So what? Duke isn't East Carolina, either.

[DetroitFlyer]

And another thing.... Let's get one thing straight.... The PFL is not a "non-scholarship" football conference. The correct team is "non-athletic scholarship". At Dayton, for example, 90%+ of the students attending receive financial aid. Guess what, that includes students that happen to play football. We recruit against other FCS, Division II, NAIA and Division III programs. We have "won" recruiting battles against schools at these levels. We do not "win" these battles because we somehow find great football players that can afford to pay 100% of the expenses of attending UD. We do focus on great students and many of our football players were National Honor Society members in high school. Guess what, at schools like Dayton, the better student you are, the better your financial aid. The PFL basically uses the Ivy League model. We do not have the money of the Ivies, but we have out recruited them when top students do not want to go play on the East Coast far from home. Last season, we had a great receiver transfer to UD from Holy Cross for a similar reason. We have had FBS players transfer in as well, most recently from North Carolina State and Cincinnati. So, the PFL uses a different model than good ole State U. Big whoop. So we are not getting the 2.0, bare minimum NCAA qualifiers in our program. Who cares? There is a home for those student-athletes at State U's all around the country, including many in Ohio. The PL uses a hybrid model kind of between the PFL and the State U's. Big Whoop. The NCAA does many things wrong, but they do understand that a one size fits all solution for football below the FBS level does not make any sense. It is no different in Division II where some schools offer the maximum number of athletic scholarships and some offer non-athletic scholarships. The fastest growing and largest sub-division is Division III. Gee, I wonder why? Honestly, if you do not like your team being in FCS because you think you are somehow better than other teams or conferences due to funding models, I beg you to work to get your team moved to FBS as soon as possible. You will be happier and I will not miss you one bit. Until then, accept FCS for what it is, a diverse and interesting group of schools working to find a way to play Division I football, while containing costs that keep them from playing FBS level football.

Here is an interesting article about Mercer and Bobby Lamb’s recruiting efforts:

Lamb, Mercer closing in on first class of football recruits
By MICHAEL A. LOUGH - [email protected]


The fall of 2011 was unlike any other for Bobby Lamb.

Never has he coached so little football and watched so much.

“It was a delight,” said Lamb, who won’t have that luxury again as Mercer begins football practice in August and starts competition in the fall of 2013. “It’s been incredibly odd, but it has been very enjoyable.”

The timing of being a coach without a team couldn’t have been more perfect.

The former Furman head coach got to watch son Taylor play every game as the starting quarterback at Calhoun and nephew Ben play as a Yellow Jackets wide receiver for Lamb’s brother Hal. And it was a long and perfect season, ending with a 27-24 overtime win over Buford in the GHSA Class AA championship game.

Calhoun hadn’t won a title since 1952, and Lamb said there were players on this year’s team who had grandfathers on that 1952 team. And Lamb, who resigned at Furman after the 2010 season and was hired at Mercer almost a year ago, got to watch a championship parade in Calhoun.

“We had Christmas come early,” said Lamb, who said he got to see about half of Taylor’s games while they lived in Greenville, S.C. “We won the state championship, beat a tremendous Buford team and celebrated basically the whole holidays.”

Lamb also got to visit his daughter Sallie at Presbyterian and take in a football game if he wanted, or go to Tennessee Tech where nephew Tre quarterbacked the Golden Eagles to a share of the Ohio Valley Conference title and their first trip to the FCS playoffs.

And Lamb was a football civilian, just watching college and pro football on weekends.

“That was huge,” Lamb said. “I really never knew what Sundays were like.”

It was an extraordinarily unique fall for a man who had been on the sidelines at Furman for every fall since 1982 as a player, assistant coach or head coach.

Then came January, and life returned to what Lamb knew. January is to college football coaches what April is to tax accountants.

“You get back from Christmas break, and it’s all jammed,” Lamb said. “People don’t realize. January is one of the most busy months for a college football coach.”

And it culminates with National Signing Day on Feb. 1, Lamb’s first at Mercer.

“I’m trying to have the same exact model we had at Furman from a recruiting standpoint,” Lamb said. “The difference is we’re dealing with financial packages instead of scholarship packages.”

Mercer is part of the Pioneer Football League, one of three conferences that doesn’t offer athletic aid. But FCS coaches have to do some wheeling and dealing anyway. FBS programs can’t split up scholarships -- using a one player, one scholarship model -- but FCS coaches can.

Lamb said FCS schools can spread out 63 scholarships among 85 players. But there is no such limitation for a non-scholarship program, since the aid isn’t athletics-based.

Lamb said he prefers the term “non-athletic aid” rather than non-scholarship, since plenty of aid will be available for Mercer football players.

According to its website, a year at Mercer -- with tuition and fees, room and board, personal expenses and books -- costs almost $44,900.

“We’ve got an incredible package,” Lamb said. “We have a tremendous amount of need-based aid and a tremendous amount of academic aid. Certainly the types of student-athletes we’re recruiting academically, if they can get in Mercer, then they’re getting a good bit of academic money.”

He cited one prospect who had qualified for more than $40,000 in general aid as well as from an engineering scholarship.

“The kid is a tremendous student and knows what he wants to do as far as engineering,” Lamb said. “But that’s about full (cost).”

Lamb and assistants Jeff Farrington and Carroll McCray will have a busier post-signing day few weeks than most schools. As a non-scholarship program, Mercer will have to wait a little longer than the average FCS school to see what the trickle down effect will be, what players won’t get the offers they may have expected or hoped for and start looking.

“I can’t tell you how many calls we got at Furman the day after signing day; ‘Coach, the kid got left out,’ ” Lamb said. “I expect us to get a lot of calls Feb. 2 and Feb. 3. The non-scholarship part of it may deter some calls, but we’ll get a good many.”

The only real difference for a non-scholarship program is how many players it can sign. Scholarship programs are capped at 25, but Lamb expects to have 40 to 45 signees by the middle of February.

He figures on signing 12 to 15 on signing day and then working the next two weeks on financial aid packages with other prospects.

The staff will host players and families on campus for the next four Saturdays, including after signing day.

And then Lamb and his staff wil play the waiting game. But considering how different his fall was, Lamb is more than OK with that. After all, he’s used to it.

“We’re out on the road Monday through Thursday, then back here to meet on Friday and plan our weekend,” Lamb said. “On the weekend, you’re entertaining, and during the week, you’re on the road.

“It doesn’t matter where you are.”

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2012/01/08/1854168/....l#storylink=cpy

This article may not be entirely accurate, but it does offer great insight into the world of PFL recruiting. Different than State U, (or Furman)? Yes, but that does not automatically make it inferior…. In fact, one could argue that it may even be better for the STUDENT-athlete because if they leave the team, they still have their financial aid package….

[DetroitFlyer]

And by the way, I took a quick look yesterday and it looked to me like the only three private schools to win the NC in FCS were Furman, Richmond and Villanova. All the others were State U's. Seems like another good reason for State U fans to quit whining....

[DFW HOYA]

And by the way, I took a quick look yesterday and it looked to me like the only two private schools to win the NC in FCS were Furman and Villanova. All the others were State U's. Seems like another good reason for State U fans to quit whining....

Richmond.

[DetroitFlyer]

Richmond.

Good catch. Thanks! Corrected above.

[Wallace]

and no current FCS conferences are without access to the Division I football championship except the Ivy League xtwocentsx

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Thinking of these as cuts in scholarships or a haircut for football largely misses the point. It's unlikely those three extra scholarships will make much of a difference in competitiveness for FCS teams nor will the five scholarships make a difference at the FBS level. Basically, it's a way to cram the "full cost of scholarship" legislation down its members throats by increasing the value of all scholarships by about $2,000 - or, in many cases, about 10% of what they're currently paying.

There is an interesting schism happening right now in Division I between the biggest of the big money conferences and everyone else, which the "full cost of scholarship" being favored by the 10% (Alabama, Ohio State, USC, Michigan, and the like, who can pay for it easily and gain a competitive advantage over everyone else) and opposed by the 90% (who cannot afford a 10% hike in the costs of their scholarships with no added benefits - this includes the entirety of FCS, plus the not-BCS FBS teams, plus certain smaller BCS teams). Surprisingly, the 90% have pretty much stopped the full cost of attendance things cold.

This haircut in scholarships is a way to make the full cost of scholarship pain "palatable" to everyone else. The question is: will FCS and the rest of Division I roll over and die on this fight, or will they continue to battle?

[RichH2]

The natural evolution , I am afraid , of FBS to its own elite semi professional group barely connected, if at all ,with the rest of the NCAA

[AppMan]

DFW Hoya the legislation may have been passed in 1991 but it did not take affect until the 1995 season. If you pay close attention my statement was "adopted a rule". You also missed the low part of my "no/low scholarship" comment. IMO, you are all in or you are not. Offering some athletic grants doesn't mean a school has made the commitment to play at a high level. Commitment goes far beyond offering a few scholarships.

Detroit Flyer never use semantics to justify a point. I must admit the "non athletic aid" thing is a creative approach, but the problem with your point is the NCAA makes a clear distinction between athletic grants in aid from academic grants in aid.

I do not have an issue with how the non/LOW scholarship institutions choose to fund football. That is decision each institution must make for themselves. My issue is when they enter into playoff, ranking, statistics and post season awards discussions. It is all about commitment and the non/LOW schollie schools are not commited to the extent of the fully funded programs.

This thread is not about public vs private it is about scholarships, so your statement about public schools winning most of NC's, has no merit. Besides, Furman and Nova are programs that fully fund ATHLETIC scholarships. As far as the whining goes, just the opposite is true. The non/LOW schollie guys are the ones always trying to make the arguement why your schools belong in FCS. The division was billed and sold as a "cost containment" level of football within D-I. It was never about bringing in D-II and D-III programs. I was deeply involved when ASU was reclassified and know the conversations that took place. If the D-II & D-III inclusionary stuff had been a part of the discussion I can guarantee you I know of one school that wouldn't be here today. The only way to remedy the situation completely is for the NCAA to create four divisions of Division One football. It will never happen, but it is what is needed.

[BisonBacker]

The way I see it based on History one only has to look back at what happened in DII years ago. One of the reasons many schools moved up from that division. I agree with what one poster said. If you want to be considered for the playoffs you should be required to fund 90% of the required scholarships at the current DI level. If you don't and that's fine you just won't be considered for playoffs or be autobid eligible. Cutting scholarships isn't the answer.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The way I see it based on History one only has to look back at what happened in DII years ago. One of the reasons many schools moved up from that division. I agree with what one poster said. If you want to be considered for the playoffs you should be required to fund 90% of the required scholarships at the current DI level. If you don't and that's fine you just won't be considered for playoffs or be autobid eligible. Cutting scholarships isn't the answer.

Not only is imposing a financial requirement completely in opposition to the principles of the NCAA, it's also unfair to private schools financially. Let's say Georgetown's yearly tuition is $60,000, and NDSU's is $18,000. With such a requirement, you're asking NDSU to fund $1,020,600 of scholarships and then asking Georgetown to forcibly fund $3,402,000 in order to simply qualify for the postseason. And that's just for scholarships, that doesn't even include the expenses for head coaches, facilities, etc. You'd see a mass exodus of private schools from football.

[BisonBacker]

Not only is imposing a financial requirement completely in opposition to the principles of the NCAA, it's also unfair to private schools financially. Let's say Georgetown's yearly tuition is $60,000, and NDSU's is $18,000. With such a requirement, you're asking NDSU to fund $1,020,600 of scholarships and then asking Georgetown to forcibly fund $3,402,000 in order to simply qualify for the postseason. And that's just for scholarships, that doesn't even include the expenses for head coaches, facilities, etc. You'd see a mass exodus of private schools from football.

I don't see it as unfair. You want to play you pay. You don't that's ok to just don't whine when you don't get an autobid or playoff consideration. It's pretty simple.

[BisonBacker]

Oh and one thing I find pretty funny about your post. NCAA and principles used in the same sentence. With the NCAA it's all about the Money. Surely you can see that!

[DetroitFlyer]

DFW Hoya the legislation may have been passed in 1991 but it did not take affect until the 1995 season. If you pay close attention my statement was "adopted a rule". You also missed the low part of my "no/low scholarship" comment. IMO, you are all in or you are not. Offering some athletic grants doesn't mean a school has made the commitment to play at a high level. Commitment goes far beyond offering a few scholarships.

Detroit Flyer never use semantics to justify a point. I must admit the "non athletic aid" thing is a creative approach, but the problem with your point is the NCAA makes a clear distinction between athletic grants in aid from academic grants in aid.

I do not have an issue with how the non/LOW scholarship institutions choose to fund football. That is decision each institution must make for themselves. My issue is when they enter into playoff, ranking, statistics and post season awards discussions. It is all about commitment and the non/LOW schollie schools are not commited to the extent of the fully funded programs.

This thread is not about public vs private it is about scholarships, so your statement about public schools winning most of NC's, has no merit. Besides, Furman and Nova are programs that fully fund ATHLETIC scholarships. As far as the whining goes, just the opposite is true. The non/LOW schollie guys are the ones always trying to make the arguement why your schools belong in FCS. The division was billed and sold as a "cost containment" level of football within D-I. It was never about bringing in D-II and D-III programs. I was deeply involved when ASU was reclassified and know the conversations that took place. If the D-II & D-III inclusionary stuff had been a part of the discussion I can guarantee you I know of one school that wouldn't be here today. The only way to remedy the situation completely is for the NCAA to create four divisions of Division One football. It will never happen, but it is what is needed.

The years were 1991 and 1993 I think. This is often times referred to the Dayton rule....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't see it as unfair. You want to play you pay. You don't that's ok to just don't whine when you don't get an autobid or playoff consideration. It's pretty simple.

"So he'res the deal. Fred over here can have this 16-room mansion for $100,000 - but for you, it's $300,000."

"Sorry, Bill, you can't bid on this house with $200,000 - but Jill over here, can, since she has $150,000."

This is fair in your world? Some folks pay more than others for the same privilege?

[DetroitFlyer]

http://www.daytondailynews.com/s/content/oh/story/sports/college/ud/2008/01/26/ddn012708kelly.html

Nice article on the history of UD Football and Hall of Fame coach Mike Kelly.

[FargoBison]

Not only is imposing a financial requirement completely in opposition to the principles of the NCAA, it's also unfair to private schools financially. Let's say Georgetown's yearly tuition is $60,000, and NDSU's is $18,000. With such a requirement, you're asking NDSU to fund $1,020,600 of scholarships and then asking Georgetown to forcibly fund $3,402,000 in order to simply qualify for the postseason. And that's just for scholarships, that doesn't even include the expenses for head coaches, facilities, etc. You'd see a mass exodus of private schools from football.

Which is why I just want to see minimum level of commitment, I don't think it is fair to force schools to fund 90-100% but is 50% unreasonable?

[RichH2]

Geez, Elitism run amok out West.No doubt PFL must improve its OOC. The idea of limiting access to playoffs to only those schools with "proper" scholarship credentials is not only bizarre but has already been proven erroneous. I do recall clearly that all these very same arguments were raised seeking to bar the PL from an autobid. By your argument we should not have an autobid now and should never have gotten one. With 24 , I would think there is enough room for all. Sure PFL will probably get their asses kicked for a while but they will become a competitve league

[FargoBison]

Geez, Elitism run amok out West.No doubt PFL must improve its OOC. The idea of limiting access to playoffs to only those schools with "proper" scholarship credentials is not only bizarre but has already been proven erroneous. I do recall clearly that all these very same arguments were raised seeking to bar the PL from an autobid. By your argument we should not have an autobid now and should never have gotten one. With 24 , I would think there is enough room for all. Sure PFL will probably get their asses kicked for a while but they will become a competitve league

They won't become competitive, not until the fund their programs at an adequate level. The PL schools that are competitive do that.

I don't think it is being elitist asking for some kind of minimum level of commitment, like say 40-50%.

[RichH2]

They won't become competitive, not until the fund their programs at an adequate level. The PL schools that are competitive do that.

How would you ever know that? For all you know, since none of us releases financial aid info, LU just lucky at only 40 some equivalencies. In fact we do offer more need grants but you are assuming because of some success that we comply with your restrictive formula. What skin is it off anyone's nose if PFL gets an autobid and gets creamed until they adapt? Is it a calamity if PFL champ gets in and a 4th place schollie school sits?

[FargoBison]

How would you ever know that? For all you know, since none of us releases financial aid info, LU just lucky at only 40 some equivalencies. In fact we do offer more need grants but you are assuming because of some success that we comply with your restrictive formula. What skin is it off anyone's nose if PFL gets an autobid and gets creamed until they adapt? Is it a calamity if PFL champ gets in and a 4th place schollie school sits?

Restrictive formula? Yeah asking to fund a minimum of 30-40 scholarships is pretty restrictive. xrolleyesxxrolleyesx


Give me a break, I know the top PL schools are well funded. They aren't schools operating on a DIII model in the FCS like PFL schools are doing.

[RichH2]

More assumptions and yes 30-40 scholarships ,while not much to you big fellas, is "restrictve" given that there no such requirement now. I co
uld almost buy your bias if it were based on actual performance rather than your own assumptions that a school would not be able to compete. Why not give PFL an autobid for 5 years ,for example, and see how they progress or dont with their financial model?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Restrictive formula? Yeah asking to fund a minimum of 30-40 scholarships is pretty restrictive. xrolleyesxxrolleyesx


Give me a break, I know the top PL schools are well funded. They aren't schools operating on a DIII model in the FCS like PFL schools are doing.

A team below 30 "scholarships/equivalencies" was one upset away from heading to the playoffs this year, you forget.

[DetroitFlyer]

Yep, the "fully funded" OVC and MEAC sure have been competitive in the FCS playoffs....

[DFW HOYA]

DFW Hoya the legislation may have been passed in 1991 but it did not take affect until the 1995 season. If you pay close attention my statement was "adopted a rule". You also missed the low part of my "no/low scholarship" comment. IMO, you are all in or you are not. Offering some athletic grants doesn't mean a school has made the commitment to play at a high level. Commitment goes far beyond offering a few scholarships.

Detroit Flyer never use semantics to justify a point. I must admit the "non athletic aid" thing is a creative approach, but the problem with your point is the NCAA makes a clear distinction between athletic grants in aid from academic grants in aid.

I do not have an issue with how the non/LOW scholarship institutions choose to fund football. That is decision each institution must make for themselves. My issue is when they enter into playoff, ranking, statistics and post season awards discussions. It is all about commitment and the non/LOW schollie schools are not commited to the extent of the fully funded programs.

I covered the 1991 NCAA convention in Nashville during a brief stint as a reporter and I am fairly sure the legislation was effective in 1993, or the MAAC and Pioneer schools would not have moved out of Div. II and III after the 1992 season.

A companion piece of legislation, the so-called I-AAA football subdivision, was introduced at the 1991 convention and defeated because, in those days, you needed an affirmative vote of all three divisions' memberships to approve it--I and III supported it, II did not. It was reintroduced in 1992 as a recall and defeated again, which is why the schools moved to I-AA the following year.

The issue of commitment is worth discussing, however, because it's not always an easy answer. How do readers define commitment--by budget, by scholarships, by stadium, by coaching staffs, by admissions flexibility, by scheduling...it's a mix of all of these and while it's easy for a state-funded school with $6K tuition to say the private school with $50K of costs isn't as committed, that private school has made different commitments that the $6K school does not have to. It's not enough to say that Mississippi Valley State has more grants than Lehigh, therefore, MVSU is more committed.

The schools in the subdivision are committed or they wouldn't be playing, period. If Div. I mandated a football program to have a Div. I basketball program, you'd have many more schools in the mix but the propensity for some to be less committed.

[FargoBison]

More assumptions and yes 30-40 scholarships ,while not much to you big fellas, is "restrictve" given that there no such requirement now. I co
uld almost buy your bias if it were based on actual performance rather than your own assumptions that a school would not be able to compete. Why not give PFL an autobid for 5 years ,for example, and see how they progress or dont with their financial model?

The PFL has given me no reason to believe they can compete, that is all I need. I don't want to add three teams that don't belong to the playoffs just so a non competitive conference can get a bid. I want the PFL to pay their dues, I want them to show how they will improve. The NEC did that and that is why I was fine with them getting an autobid. I don't think the PFL should just get a handout.

[BisonBacker]

More assumptions and yes 30-40 scholarships ,while not much to you big fellas, is "restrictve" given that there no such requirement now. I co
uld almost buy your bias if it were based on actual performance rather than your own assumptions that a school would not be able to compete. Why not give PFL an autobid for 5 years ,for example, and see how they progress or dont with their financial model?

Buried in the post you made is the answer to your own question. If you see (insert name of school here) as being mixed in with "the big fellas" (using your own words) maybe you need to establish (insert name of school here) amongst schools that it doesn't have to be mixed in with "the big fellas". This would solve the problem pretty simple. Fact is by trying to restrict "the big fellas" again using your words to make your institution more competitive is just flat out wrong. Like it or not that is the truth. Times change, maybe at one time you were with peer institutions but if the school you support woefully underfunds athletics maybe you ought not to be at this level. What is the saying...Champaign taste on a beer budget???

All sarcasm aside I've never understood the mentality that to better yourself you cut down the competition. Maybe we ought to just forgo the playoffs and give everyone a participation award xsmhx

[RichH2]

The PFL has given me no reason to believe they can compete, that is all I need. I don't want to add four teams that don't belong to the playoffs just so a non competitive conference can get a bid. I want the PFL to pay their dues, I want them to show how they will improve. The NEC did that and that is why I was fine with them getting an autobid. I don't think the PFL should just get a handout.
Again I agree with you about improving PFL OOC schedule and performance as a prerequisite to an autobid. Just cannot stomache that 40 schollie crap

[RichH2]

Buried in the post you made is the answer to your own question. If you see (insert name of school here) as being mixed in with "the big fellas" (using your own words) maybe you need to establish (insert name of school here) amongst schools that it doesn't have to be mixed in with "the big fellas". This would solve the problem pretty simple. Fact is by trying to restrict "the big fellas" again using your words to make your institution more competitive is just flat out wrong. Like it or not that is the truth. Times change, maybe at one time you were with peer institutions but if the school you support woefully underfunds athletics maybe you ought not to be at this level. What is the saying...Champaign taste on a beer budget???

All sarcasm aside I've never understood the mentality that to better yourself you cut down the competition. Maybe we ought to just forgo the playoffs and give everyone a participation award xsmhx

My God, did you read the stuff you just posted. It doesn't make any sense. How is NOT imposing an arbitrary scholarship minimum impacting you at all


It would seem by your logic then the playoffs should only be open to CAA, SoCon, MVFC and BigSky and Big South. NEC accepted provisionally. Pretty good each confernce guaranteed at least 2 bids. SO you want to create your own little BCS in the FCS. Wow, I thought we were all about competiton and freedom to see who is the best. Guess not in your world.

[BisonBacker]

Geez, Elitism run amok out West.No doubt PFL must improve its OOC. The idea of limiting access to playoffs to only those schools with "proper" scholarship credentials is not only bizarre but has already been proven erroneous. I do recall clearly that all these very same arguments were raised seeking to bar the PL from an autobid. By your argument we should not have an autobid now and should never have gotten one. With 24 , I would think there is enough room for all. Sure PFL will probably get their asses kicked for a while but they will become a competitve league

This is way to funny coming from fans of schools where tuition is XXXX times that of public colleges xlolx

[BisonBacker]

Not only is imposing a financial requirement completely in opposition to the principles of the NCAA, it's also unfair to private schools financially. Let's say Georgetown's yearly tuition is $60,000, and NDSU's is $18,000. With such a requirement, you're asking NDSU to fund $1,020,600 of scholarships and then asking Georgetown to forcibly fund $3,402,000 in order to simply qualify for the postseason. And that's just for scholarships, that doesn't even include the expenses for head coaches, facilities, etc. You'd see a mass exodus of private schools from football.

If a school can demand that amount for tuition and they have folks willing to pay it than how is it they can't fund the scholarships? Seems to me that you want your cake and eat it to.

[BisonBacker]

My God, did you read the stuff you just posted. It doesn't make any sense. How is NOT imposing an arbitrary scholarship minimum impacting you at all


It would seem by your logic then the playoffs should only be open to CAA, SoCon, MVFC and BigSky and Big South. NEC accepted provisionally. Pretty good each confernce guaranteed at least 2 bids. SO you want to create your own little BCS in the FCS. Wow, I thought we were all about competiton and freedom to see who is the best. Guess not in your world.

Did you even read what I posted or are you so blinded by the opinion you already have that it doesn't matter what anyone posts? I'm fine with not imposing any minimum but if that's the case then I'd say for those *****ing about an autobid or wanting inclusion into the playoffs if you don't support athletics at a minimum level don't *****. Pretty simple. Sorry if you don't like it but it is common sense. If you go to a school where the tuition makes that an impossiblity due to higher tuition how is that anyone elses problem? See my reply to Lehigh Football Nation.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

If a school can demand that amount for tuition and they have folks willing to pay it than how is it they can't fund the scholarships? Seems to me that you want your cake and eat it too.

The amount schools charge for tuition and how they fund football scholarships are two entirely different animals. Tuition is not set for the benefit of the athletic department. And tuition from paying students doesn't fund football scholarships - either at private schools, or public.

[RichH2]

Did you even read what I posted or are you so blinded by the opinion you already have that it doesn't matter what anyone posts? I'm fine with not imposing any minimum but if that's the case then I'd say for those *****ing about an autobid or wanting inclusion into the playoffs if you don't support athletics at a minimum level don't *****. Pretty simple. Sorry if you don't like it but it is common sense. If you go to a school where the tuition makes that an impossiblity due to higher tuition how is that anyone elses problem? See my reply to Lehigh Football Nation.

You definitely seem stuck in reverse. Got no problem having PFL or anyone else show they can compete by actually doing so. Improve OOC play more teams from autobid conferences. You would bar them even if they could do so because you have imposed an artificial barrier presupposing that no one who does not meet your requirement cannot play in yoiur game. Why not settle it on the field rather than inside your little mind.

Your comment on tuition just plain stupid. Private schools do not have taxpayers to fund our cost of education. The bottom line fact is that a full scholarship at aPL school is vastly more expensive than at UND et al. However, the issue should be irrelevant to whether or not a specific conference should get an autobid. This is football, not a Tea Party lynching, settle it on the field.

[BisonBacker]

The amount schools charge for tuition and how they fund football scholarships are two entirely different animals. Tuition is not set for the benefit of the athletic department. And tuition from paying students doesn't fund football scholarships - either at private schools, or public.

I never said tuition was set for the benefit of the athletic department nor should it be. NDSU recieves funds through an outside organization (teammakers) which is made up f businesses and individials. How you fund it or raise funds for it isn't anyones problem but the school you support and it's backers. I still maintain that lowering scholarships is not the answer period. It was posted by someone in this thread earlier that if forced to fund at a minimum level many schools would drop football. Well if the answer than is to keep cutting scholarships many schools would just move football to FBS. Like I said earlier it's ridiculous to keep cutting to give more schools a chance at the playoffs when they won't fully back athletics. If we are going to get to a point where everyone has to feel good about being able to participate we may as well just say to hell with the playoffs and give participation awards. I want no part of that. Nor do I want to see schools regardless of conference if they won't adequately fund athletics. Hell the top tier teams could just as well schedule DIII's that are local rather than to play teams from FCS and have to pay to bring them in just to watch a beat down. Don't believe me look at may of the top tier teams OOC schedules and the results. Not very competitive and makes about as much sense as giving them an autobid or cutting scholarships so they can feel better about themselves and trying to level the playing field by penalizing the schools who do adequately fund athletics.

[BisonBacker]

You definitely seem stuck in reverse. Got no problem having PFL or anyone else show they can compete by actually doing so. Improve OOC play more teams from autobid conferences. You would bar them even if they could do so because you have imposed an artificial barrier presupposing that no one who does not meet your requirement cannot play in yoiur game. Why not settle it on the field rather than inside your little mind.

Your comment on tuition just plain stupid. Private schools do not have taxpayers to fund our cost of education. The bottom line fact is that a full scholarship at aPL school is vastly more expensive than at UND et al. However, the issue should be irrelevant to whether or not a specific conference should get an autobid. This is football, not a Tea Party lynching, settle it on the field.

I could easily say than that you are an elitist with the small mind. You seem to be stuck in the world that if we can't compete with them using the exising rules lets change the rules to penalize them and that will make us better??? Nice try but it doesn't work. Looks like you want to take the no child left behind formula and transfer it to College sports. Nevermind that little Johnny can't do simple math lets move him on and lower the bar. That way he can feel good about himself becuase we all know we can't let anyone be a failure. You may not like the analogy but the fact remains and history bears it out. Teams you are touting routinely get routed once they move to OOC play and only occassionaly (AKA rarely) win OOC games against the same teams you want to penalize. Hey if that's how you want it keep on fighting the good fight but few here agree with you I'm pretty sure of that.

[UAalum72]

if the school you support woefully underfunds athletics maybe you ought not to be at this level.
For 2010-11 the Dayton athletics expenditures were $19,870,762 while North Dakota State's were $15,351,245. Which school is underfunding athletics?

[BisonBacker]

For 2010-11 the Dayton athletics expenditures were $19,870,762 while North Dakota State's were $15,351,245. Which school is underfunding athletics?
How did they do for football Scholarships????? Thats what were talking about here?

[RichH2]

I could easily say than that you are an elitist with the small mind. You seem to be stuck in the world that if we can't compete with them using the exising rules lets change the rules to penalize them and that will make us better??? Nice try but it doesn't work. Looks like you want to take the no child left behind formula and transfer it to College sports. Nevermind that little Johnny can't do simple math lets move him on and lower the bar. That way he can feel good about himself becuase we all know we can't let anyone be a failure. You may not like the analogy but the fact remains and history bears it out. Teams you are touting routinely get routed once they move to OOC play and only occassionaly (AKA rarely) win OOC games against the same teams you want to penalize. Hey if that's how you want it keep on fighting the good fight but few here agree with you I'm pretty sure of that.

Now you are just making stuff up. Not in favor of NCAA reducing aid, never said I was. All I am saying is that everyone should have the opportunity to compete. If they get their *** kicked that is on them .Get better. You want to limit the opportunity to compete. You seem to equate that opportunity with giving out welfare to the people who dont need it. What crap. If it stays at 20, then make PFL show they can improveOOC and compete. If it goes to 24 give them a shot . This is America everyone should have the opportunity not of entitlement but of the chance to compete against the best. Guess the Home of the free andthe brave does not mean much in your corner of the Dakotas
.

[FargoBison]

For 2010-11 the Dayton athletics expenditures were $19,870,762 while North Dakota State's were $15,351,245. Which school is underfunding athletics?

I'm guessing Dayton costs twice as much as NDSU in regards to tuition.

That said I'm guessing for football Dayton is reporting around $1 million and NDSU is somewhere around $4 million.

Football is what we are talking about here and how committed the PFL schools are to actually being competitive.

[BisonBacker]

For 2010-11 the Dayton athletics expenditures were $19,870,762 while North Dakota State's were $15,351,245. Which school is underfunding athletics?

Yeah we can see by this stellar schedule and list of formidable in conference opponents why anyone would say this league deserves an AQ xbowx


Sep. 03, 2011 VS.

Robert Morris

W 19-13




Sep. 10, 2011 VS

Duquesne

L 22-13




Sep. 17, 2011 VS.

Marist *

W 24-10




Sep. 24, 2011 VS

Central State

W 17-7




Oct. 01, 2011 VS

Butler *

L 29-27



Oct. 08, 2011 VS

Jacksonville *

L 34-26




Oct. 15, 2011 VS

Davidson *

W 28-0




Oct. 22, 2011 VS

Morehead State *

W 30-28




Oct. 29, 2011 VS

Valparaiso *

W 49-10




Nov. 05, 2011 VS

San Diego *

L 31-28




Nov. 12, 2011 VS

Drake *

L 37-14

Just as a point of reference we played the same team you barely beat from Robert Morris last year in the playoffs and won 43-17. We also played back in 04-05 season Valparaiso in OOC game and won 52-0. If you think that is competitve and deserving of an AQ well lets just agree to disagree. Listen I'm not trying to knock you or the team you support I'm just saying trying to make your team more competitve by dropping scholarships is BS. I'm not opposed to settling things on the field either but I don't think it's fair to schools who do fund athletics at a compteitve level to be left out just to give a playoff spot to someone who doesn't just to make them feel good. Plain and simple.

[DetroitFlyer]

Your idea of "support" is simply the number of athletic scholarships provided.... How about all of the other items? Coaches, facilities, academic services for STUDENT-athletes, travel, etc.? The "support" for football at Dayton is absolutely on a par with FCS schools. We play at 11,000 seat Welcome Stadium with brand new field turf, we have a dedicated, fully outfitted grass practice field, we have a decent indoor practice area, our team travels well, (flights and hotels are not done on the cheap), and the list goes on.... Do the math on the non-athletic aid. If 90/110 football players each receive a 25% aid package, (academic and/or need based), then you could argue that the athletic scholarship eqivalent would be around 22 or so. Many of the players receive more than 25%, and probably more than 90 players receive aid, so the actual athletic scholarship equivalent could be a bit higher, (closer to 30). Don't tell me that we do not "support" FCS level football.

[FargoBison]

Your idea of "support" is simply the number of athletic scholarships provided.... How about all of the other items? Coaches, facilities, academic services for STUDENT-athletes, travel, etc.? The "support" for football at Dayton is absolutely on a par with FCS schools. We play at 11,000 seat Welcome Stadium with brand new field turf, we have a dedicated, fully outfitted grass practice field, we have a decent indoor practice area, our team travels well, (flights and hotels are not done on the cheap), and the list goes on.... Do the math on the non-athletic aid. If 90/110 football players each receive a 25% aid package, (academic and/or need based), then you could argue that the athletic scholarship eqivalent would be around 22 or so. Many of the players receive more than 25%, and probably more than 90 players receive aid, so the actual athletic scholarship equivalent could be a bit higher, (closer to 30). Don't tell me that we do not "support" FCS level football.

You support DIII football at the FCS level, congrats.

[DetroitFlyer]

Yeah we can see by this stellar schedule and list of formidable in conference opponents why anyone would say this league deserves an AQ xbowx


Sep. 03, 2011 VS.

Robert Morris

W 19-13




Sep. 10, 2011 VS

Duquesne

L 22-13




Sep. 17, 2011 VS.

Marist *

W 24-10




Sep. 24, 2011 VS

Central State

W 17-7




Oct. 01, 2011 VS

Butler *

L 29-27



Oct. 08, 2011 VS

Jacksonville *

L 34-26




Oct. 15, 2011 VS

Davidson *

W 28-0




Oct. 22, 2011 VS

Morehead State *

W 30-28




Oct. 29, 2011 VS

Valparaiso *

W 49-10




Nov. 05, 2011 VS

San Diego *

L 31-28




Nov. 12, 2011 VS

Drake *

L 37-14

Just as a point of reference we played the same team you barely beat from Robert Morris last year in the playoffs and won 43-17. We also played back in 04-05 season Valparaiso in OOC game and won 52-0. If you think that is competitve and deserving of an AQ well lets just agree to disagree. Listen I'm not trying to knock you or the team you support I'm just saying trying to make your team more competitve by dropping scholarships is BS. I'm not opposed to settling things on the field either but I don't think it's fair to schools who do fund athletics at a compteitve level to be left out just to give a playoff spot to someone who doesn't just to make them feel good. Plain and simple.

Do you actually follow college football? If so, you would know that on any given weekend there are blowout wins and losses. If any other FCS team gets blown out it is OK because they fund 63 athletic scholarships while doing so? Do you realize just how stupid that sounds? Yeah, it is plain and simple, you are wrong.

[BisonBacker]

Now you are just making stuff up. Not in favor of NCAA reducing aid, never said I was. All I am saying is that everyone should have the opportunity to compete. If they get their *** kicked that is on them .Get better. You want to limit the opportunity to compete. You seem to equate that opportunity with giving out welfare to the people who dont need it. What crap. If it stays at 20, then make PFL show they can improveOOC and compete. If it goes to 24 give them a shot . This is America everyone should have the opportunity not of entitlement but of the chance to compete against the best. Guess the Home of the free andthe brave does not mean much in your corner of the Dakotas
.

When you have in conference opponents like the ones I just listed off to say you want to compete against the best is...well lets just leave it at that. We all know a schedule like that isn't competeing against "the best" or even close to it. If those teams all consistently scheduled OOC games against teams like Georgia Southern, Appy, Montana, NDSU ect. and could show they could compete I'm fine with them getting an AQ. But most of them don't and when they do schedule them they routinely get routed.

[BisonBacker]

Do you actually follow college football? If so, you would know that on any given weekend there are blowout wins and losses. If any other FCS team gets blown out it is OK because they fund 63 athletic scholarships while doing so? Do you realize just how stupid that sounds? Yeah, it is plain and simple, you are wrong.

Hey you are entitled to your opinion which I think is wrong. If we use your model why do we have any classifications in college sports. You should just skip over the FCS and demand to play Alabama or LSU for the National Title why bother with the FCS?

[AmsterBison]

I guess I don't support cuts to scholarships because I dislike anything that cuts a chunk off of the students' tiny piece of the pie.

[The Eagle's Cliff]

The argument from my perspective is not about schools like Dayton, Butler, Georgetown, etc. not having enough scholarships. The NCAA is supposed to make decisions based on what's best for all of it's members, but when it comes to football, about 75% of D1 members are aggressively shafted in the case of non-AQ FBS or passively ignored in the case of FCS. This "treatment" by the NCAA and the elite members doesn't really affect most schools in the PFL, PL, Ivy's, or even the SWAC because those schools have a strong tradition in academics, history, and/or basketball.

The major schools in states with small populations along with the emerging Directional U's are built to look more like their larger, richer rivals either in-state or in neighboring states/markets. The disorganization of D1 Football effectively locks out those schools seeking to show off their product and add marketable prestige to their school.

The NCAA doesn't have a lot of power over FBS football, but they could've used the Basketball Tournament as leverage to demand much more coverage of FCS football to try and improve the marketability of the D1 football product they do control. What do you suppose would happen if the Big Boys decided to take their football and form a new Athletic Association and leave the NCAA?

The NCAA doesn't serve all of its members, but kowtows to the elite and powerful few while ruling over the smaller and less powerful majority (sounds like an entity based in Washington) ensuring the status quo of the rich getting richer. We can ***** an moan year around and it won't change the fact that people outside these circles can tell you who won the FCS NC at the same rate we can name the Women's Volleyball NC.

[DFW HOYA]

Recent years have underscored the inconvenient truth that the NCAA is increasingly powerless in governing football.

There was a time when the NCAA negotiated and approved all TV contracts, could legislate and issue penalties with impunity, and maintain some sense of competitive parity. Today, ESPN drives the bus, the NCAA is hesitant to sanction major programs (esp. SEC) for fear that the haves will abandon the have-nots to a new arrangement, and is utterly silent when that same network steers two teams to the ACC to improve its bottom line.

[AppMan]

Not only is imposing a financial requirement completely in opposition to the principles of the NCAA, it's also unfair to private schools financially. Let's say Georgetown's yearly tuition is $60,000, and NDSU's is $18,000. With such a requirement, you're asking NDSU to fund $1,020,600 of scholarships and then asking Georgetown to forcibly fund $3,402,000 in order to simply qualify for the postseason. And that's just for scholarships, that doesn't even include the expenses for head coaches, facilities, etc. You'd see a mass exodus of private schools from football.

Unlike public institutions who must answer to their state legislature private schools have complete autonomy over how much they charge. In theory a private school scholarship can be as little as the fixed cost of room and board. Since professors are already teaching a class full of students paying the high tuition the school can basically insert the athlete at no extra cost.

[Redhawk2010]

If you don't go to NDSU, just bow down to them. They have just won their first National Title; they have all the answers! You can't be right because they have the answers; not you!

[DFW HOYA]

Unlike public institutions who must answer to their state legislature private schools have complete autonomy over how much they charge. In theory a private school scholarship can be as little as the fixed cost of room and board. Since professors are already teaching a class full of students paying the high tuition the school can basically insert the athlete at no extra cost.

In theory, but not always in practice. In Georgetown's case, the DC government set a hard enrollment cap on undergraduates, so every "free" athlete is potentially one less paying student. Other schools have rules about when and where tuition can be waived that don't allow for a zero variable cost on scholarships.

By contrast, if the state of Alabama allowed 200 comped players a year at Auburn and approved that in the budget, they just increase enrollment to make up the difference.

[BlueHenSinfonian]

There are powerhouses and cupcakes at the FBS level just as there are at the FCS level. There is more than a little hypocrisy in saying that the FBS bowl system is unfair for not allowing teams from the Sunbelt, MAC, WAC, etc, to play for the championship while at the same time saying that the PFL should be excluded from the FCS playoffs.

New Mexico, Middle Tennessee, and Idaho don't diminish the accomplishments of Auburn, Michigan, and LSU just by playing in the same division just as Valpo and Columbia don't diminish the accomplishments of Montana, Georgia Southern and Delaware by playing in the FCS. Let each school decide how many scholarships they want to fund, or how many equivalencies and in which manner they wish to offer. Invite each conference champion to the playoffs, and fill the rest of the field with the schools with the best records against the best opponents. Yes, it means that occasionally a weaker team will make it in as conference champs vs an at large from a stronger conference, but thems the breaks.

[RichH2]

When you have in conference opponents like the ones I just listed off to say you want to compete against the best is...well lets just leave it at that. We all know a schedule like that isn't competeing against "the best" or even close to it. If those teams all consistently scheduled OOC games against teams like Georgia Southern, Appy, Montana, NDSU ect. and could show they could compete I'm fine with them getting an AQ. But most of them don't and when they do schedule them they routinely get routed.

I am amazed, you actually agreed.

[BisonBacker]

I am amazed, you actually agreed.

Rich, I have a question for you though. Would you be happy seeing teams from the confernces that currently do not participate in the playoffs now get an AQ and routinely get curb stomped in the first round of the playoffs? Its a fair question. Maybe I shouldn't as a fan care if each league gets an AQ if they expand the current playoff system to 24 teams. I just think for those players while it may at first seem like a great thing how many times will it take after embarassing first round exits before they realize it was not a good idea? Just remember to be careful what you wish for it might just happen. I maybe wrong but outside of the rare first round win I don't see these teams competeing in the FCS playoffs. To me that makes a mockery of the playoff system.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Rich, I have a question for you though. Would you be happy seeing teams from the confernces that currently do not participate in the playoffs now get an AQ and routinely get curb stomped in the first round of the playoffs? Its a fair question. Maybe I shouldn't as a fan care if each league gets an AQ if they expand the current playoff system to 24 teams. I just think for those players while it may at first seem like a great thing how many times will it take after embarassing first round exits before they realize it was not a good idea? Just remember to be careful what you wish for it might just happen. I maybe wrong but outside of the rare first round win I don't see these teams competeing in the FCS playoffs. To me that makes a mockery of the playoff system.

Back in the day, people said the Patriot League shouldn't have had an autobid - a "non-scholarship" school, you see. Yet Lehigh and Colgate have made pretty good runs in the playoffs in the past, and Lehigh beat the "full scholarship" CAA champs last year and the "full scholarship" MVFC champs in 2009.

People said the NEC and the Big South shouldn't have autobids - they "disrupt the perfect 16-team bracket, you see, and besides, they're not "pure" scholarship conferences, with the great majority operating under the 63 limit. Yet Stony Brook/Albany was unquestionably the best first-round game in the playoffs this year, and the Seawolves came within a hair of beating Sam Houston State in their place - something Montana State was unable to do, and Montana equalled.

In the years preceding this, the arguments against their playoff participation were near-identical. "They don't play anybody." "Their leagues are weak." "They can't compete with scholarships." Yet all the hard evidence proved all of that to be completely untrue. While some years provide champs from these conferences that won't be national champions, they have had better performance than the "full scholarship" OVC and "full scholarship" MEAC.

Basically, we cannot prove that the PFL will get their asses kicked in the playoffs, since the process for picking at-large teams have meant that it is near-impossible for a PFL team to get selected. Only an autobid will prove one way or another whether their champions belong or not.

[RichH2]

Look, Backer

I admit to having some qualms about extending playoffs too far but I would rather err on the side of including schools and conferences rather than excluding them. Nobody enjoys getting the junk knocked out of them but if PFL follows the same path as PL and NEC at least to some extent they will not always be doormats.
I am violently opposed ( guess you figured thatxrolleyesx) to setting a monetary minimum for qualification for an autobid. That issue should and must be resolved by playing the game. As LFN noted, currently virtually impossible for PFL to gaet an at large , an autobid will surely serve to let them and us know where they are competitivelyxthumbsupx

[BisonBacker]

Back in the day, people said the Patriot League shouldn't have had an autobid - a "non-scholarship" school, you see. Yet Lehigh and Colgate have made pretty good runs in the playoffs in the past, and Lehigh beat the "full scholarship" CAA champs last year and the "full scholarship" MVFC champs in 2009.

People said the NEC and the Big South shouldn't have autobids - they "disrupt the perfect 16-team bracket, you see, and besides, they're not "pure" scholarship conferences, with the great majority operating under the 63 limit. Yet Stony Brook/Albany was unquestionably the best first-round game in the playoffs this year, and the Seawolves came within a hair of beating Sam Houston State in their place - something Montana State was unable to do, and Montana equalled.

In the years preceding this, the arguments against their playoff participation were near-identical. "They don't play anybody." "Their leagues are weak." "They can't compete with scholarships." Yet all the hard evidence proved all of that to be completely untrue. While some years provide champs from these conferences that won't be national champions, they have had better performance than the "full scholarship" OVC and "full scholarship" MEAC.

Basically, we cannot prove that the PFL will get their asses kicked in the playoffs, since the process for picking at-large teams have meant that it is near-impossible for a PFL team to get selected. Only an autobid will prove one way or another whether their champions belong or not.

Ok so lets go with this premise for a second. What happens "IF" and it's a high probabilty it would happen that these teams would not compete regularly once post season play arrives. Once you open that can of worms there wouldn't be any going back. How does that improve the perception of football to the average football fan who may want to see what FCS football is all about. We ***** about nobody giving a damn and not getting any recognition by the media. How does this help when you bring teams into a playoff system only to watch them struggle against a fully funded team assuming a Valpo gets to the playoffs against say Appy or Georgia Southern? I am trying to see both sides of the argument here but for those who are for it how can you honestly say playing a conference schedule like that compared to other conferences where teams are fully funded is fair. How can you honestly compare the Pioneer league to lets say the MVFC or the Southland or the Colonial? I just don't see this improving the image of the brand of football at the FCS level. Then again it's only my opinion.

[RichH2]

I dont think the issue of the "image"or "perception" of FCS will be hurt by including schools. Perception from non FCS seems more to be envious of the fact that we actually have a playoff system to determine the Natl Champ, not a media and money machine that controls BCS.

[MplsBison]

Different discussion. I'm simply saying that the NCAA is not in the scholarship minimum business. I-AA was specifically constructed to be a catch-all for Division I programs considered outside of the major college level when 105 scholarships was considered unlikely for these schools to aspire to.

What is to be gained by the Ivy, Pioneer, and a few SWAC schools out of playoff eligibility--they're already out of playoff eligibility! Putting in a scholarship minimum doesn't really change this equation, and these schools aren't leaving Division I in either circumstance.

None of the other sports need a minimum. What good does having a minimum in MBB do when the max is 13 (somewhere around there)?

FBS and FCS football are by far and wide different than all other sports. That's why they deserve a scholarship minimum (and FBS has it now).


You're exactly correct: I-AA was constructed to be a catch-all for Division I programs. There is no such thing as a Division I football program that doesn't give football players special money that only football players can get. That's Division III - that's why they have that division.


The schools may not be leaving Division I, but they in no way, shape or form deserved the right to maintain their varsity football programs in Division I just because they formally played in Division III. They should've been forced to conform to a minimum requirement or drop varsity status from the team.

There's nothing wrong with having a club football team for crying out loud.

[MplsBison]

An April Board of Directors vote will give the PFL an autobid, beginning in 2013, but thanks for your opinion.

Nope. PFL has done nothing to demonstrate they've earned that.

[MplsBison]

And another thing.... Let's get one thing straight.... The PFL is not a "non-scholarship" football conference. The correct team is "non-athletic scholarship". At Dayton, for example, 90%+ of the students attending receive financial aid. Guess what, that includes students that happen to play football. We recruit against other FCS, Division II, NAIA and Division III programs. We have "won" recruiting battles against schools at these levels. We do not "win" these battles because we somehow find great football players that can afford to pay 100% of the expenses of attending UD. We do focus on great students and many of our football players were National Honor Society members in high school. Guess what, at schools like Dayton, the better student you are, the better your financial aid. The PFL basically uses the Ivy League model. We do not have the money of the Ivies, but we have out recruited them when top students do not want to go play on the East Coast far from home. Last season, we had a great receiver transfer to UD from Holy Cross for a similar reason. We have had FBS players transfer in as well, most recently from North Carolina State and Cincinnati. So, the PFL uses a different model than good ole State U. Big whoop. So we are not getting the 2.0, bare minimum NCAA qualifiers in our program. Who cares? There is a home for those student-athletes at State U's all around the country, including many in Ohio. The PL uses a hybrid model kind of between the PFL and the State U's. Big Whoop. The NCAA does many things wrong, but they do understand that a one size fits all solution for football below the FBS level does not make any sense. It is no different in Division II where some schools offer the maximum number of athletic scholarships and some offer non-athletic scholarships. The fastest growing and largest sub-division is Division III. Gee, I wonder why? Honestly, if you do not like your team being in FCS because you think you are somehow better than other teams or conferences due to funding models, I beg you to work to get your team moved to FBS as soon as possible. You will be happier and I will not miss you one bit. Until then, accept FCS for what it is, a diverse and interesting group of schools working to find a way to play Division I football, while containing costs that keep them from playing FBS level football.

Here is an interesting article about Mercer and Bobby Lamb’s recruiting efforts:

Lamb, Mercer closing in on first class of football recruits
By MICHAEL A. LOUGH - [email protected]


The fall of 2011 was unlike any other for Bobby Lamb.

Never has he coached so little football and watched so much.

“It was a delight,” said Lamb, who won’t have that luxury again as Mercer begins football practice in August and starts competition in the fall of 2013. “It’s been incredibly odd, but it has been very enjoyable.”

The timing of being a coach without a team couldn’t have been more perfect.

The former Furman head coach got to watch son Taylor play every game as the starting quarterback at Calhoun and nephew Ben play as a Yellow Jackets wide receiver for Lamb’s brother Hal. And it was a long and perfect season, ending with a 27-24 overtime win over Buford in the GHSA Class AA championship game.

Calhoun hadn’t won a title since 1952, and Lamb said there were players on this year’s team who had grandfathers on that 1952 team. And Lamb, who resigned at Furman after the 2010 season and was hired at Mercer almost a year ago, got to watch a championship parade in Calhoun.

“We had Christmas come early,” said Lamb, who said he got to see about half of Taylor’s games while they lived in Greenville, S.C. “We won the state championship, beat a tremendous Buford team and celebrated basically the whole holidays.”

Lamb also got to visit his daughter Sallie at Presbyterian and take in a football game if he wanted, or go to Tennessee Tech where nephew Tre quarterbacked the Golden Eagles to a share of the Ohio Valley Conference title and their first trip to the FCS playoffs.

And Lamb was a football civilian, just watching college and pro football on weekends.

“That was huge,” Lamb said. “I really never knew what Sundays were like.”

It was an extraordinarily unique fall for a man who had been on the sidelines at Furman for every fall since 1982 as a player, assistant coach or head coach.

Then came January, and life returned to what Lamb knew. January is to college football coaches what April is to tax accountants.

“You get back from Christmas break, and it’s all jammed,” Lamb said. “People don’t realize. January is one of the most busy months for a college football coach.”

And it culminates with National Signing Day on Feb. 1, Lamb’s first at Mercer.

“I’m trying to have the same exact model we had at Furman from a recruiting standpoint,” Lamb said. “The difference is we’re dealing with financial packages instead of scholarship packages.”

Mercer is part of the Pioneer Football League, one of three conferences that doesn’t offer athletic aid. But FCS coaches have to do some wheeling and dealing anyway. FBS programs can’t split up scholarships -- using a one player, one scholarship model -- but FCS coaches can.

Lamb said FCS schools can spread out 63 scholarships among 85 players. But there is no such limitation for a non-scholarship program, since the aid isn’t athletics-based.

Lamb said he prefers the term “non-athletic aid” rather than non-scholarship, since plenty of aid will be available for Mercer football players.

According to its website, a year at Mercer -- with tuition and fees, room and board, personal expenses and books -- costs almost $44,900.

“We’ve got an incredible package,” Lamb said. “We have a tremendous amount of need-based aid and a tremendous amount of academic aid. Certainly the types of student-athletes we’re recruiting academically, if they can get in Mercer, then they’re getting a good bit of academic money.”

He cited one prospect who had qualified for more than $40,000 in general aid as well as from an engineering scholarship.

“The kid is a tremendous student and knows what he wants to do as far as engineering,” Lamb said. “But that’s about full (cost).”

Lamb and assistants Jeff Farrington and Carroll McCray will have a busier post-signing day few weeks than most schools. As a non-scholarship program, Mercer will have to wait a little longer than the average FCS school to see what the trickle down effect will be, what players won’t get the offers they may have expected or hoped for and start looking.

“I can’t tell you how many calls we got at Furman the day after signing day; ‘Coach, the kid got left out,’ ” Lamb said. “I expect us to get a lot of calls Feb. 2 and Feb. 3. The non-scholarship part of it may deter some calls, but we’ll get a good many.”

The only real difference for a non-scholarship program is how many players it can sign. Scholarship programs are capped at 25, but Lamb expects to have 40 to 45 signees by the middle of February.

He figures on signing 12 to 15 on signing day and then working the next two weeks on financial aid packages with other prospects.

The staff will host players and families on campus for the next four Saturdays, including after signing day.

And then Lamb and his staff wil play the waiting game. But considering how different his fall was, Lamb is more than OK with that. After all, he’s used to it.

“We’re out on the road Monday through Thursday, then back here to meet on Friday and plan our weekend,” Lamb said. “On the weekend, you’re entertaining, and during the week, you’re on the road.

“It doesn’t matter where you are.”

Read more here: http://www.macon.com/2012/01/08/1854168/....l#storylink=cpy

This article may not be entirely accurate, but it does offer great insight into the world of PFL recruiting. Different than State U, (or Furman)? Yes, but that does not automatically make it inferior…. In fact, one could argue that it may even be better for the STUDENT-athlete because if they leave the team, they still have their financial aid package….


90% of students receive some form of financial aid. So Johnny Moneybags gets $100 a semster - now he counts in the 90%. What a joke.

Take every FCS team in the division. For each team: combine the amount of money owed to the school on average from all institutional expenses (tuition, fees, and room&board if applicable) each semester by all players. Then subtract the combined scholarships of any form for all players (could be institutional aid that any student can qualify for or could be athletic aid that only football players can receive).


Guaranteed that Dayton has one of the highest totals in FCS. Guaran-damned-teed.

That's DIII football.

[RichH2]

The thread is officially dead. MplsBison has spoken

[MplsBison]

The thread is officially dead. MplsBison has spoken

Like you and I can do anything about it. You piss-ant.

At least we can come on this board and express our opinions - or in your case, pretend like you have some authority to close threads.

[DFW HOYA]

The schools may not be leaving Division I, but they in no way, shape or form deserved the right to maintain their varsity football programs in Division I just because they formally played in Division III. They should've been forced to conform to a minimum requirement or drop varsity status from the team.

FWIW, you realize that half the original Pioneer schools came from Division II, not III.

[MplsBison]

FWIW, you realize that half the original Pioneer schools came from Division II, not III.

It's worth nothing.

They deserved no right to maintain varsity status without increasing their investment in football.



Honest question -- have any, ANY of the Pioneers made significant increases in the amount of money that their school invests in the football program since moving up from DII or DIII --- OTHER than travel budget?

Anything - recruiting budget, head coach's salary, assist coach salaries, operational budget (not including travel), equipment, facilities ---- ANYTHING?



Because where I'm sitting, basically the Pioneer schools collectively said "Screw you NCAA. Fine, we'll play ourselves in your I-AA division but don't expect us to sink a damn red cent more into our programs!!" They're playing it exactly the same as they did back in DII or DIII. They just call themselves DI now.

[RichH2]

Like you and I can do anything about it. You piss-ant.

At least we can come on this board and express our opinions - or in your case, pretend like you have some authority to close threads.

Not so sir, but you are just rehashing the issues already discussed w/o adding anything to the discussion

[MplsBison]

90% of students receive some form of financial aid. So Johnny Moneybags gets $100 a semster - now he counts in the 90%. What a joke.

Take every FCS team in the division. For each team: combine the amount of money owed to the school on average from all institutional expenses (tuition, fees, and room&board if applicable) each semester by all players. Then subtract the combined scholarships of any form for all players (could be institutional aid that any student can qualify for or could be athletic aid that only football players can receive).


Guaranteed that Dayton has one of the highest totals in FCS. Guaran-damned-teed.

That's DIII football.

I'm compelled to clarify what I'm getting at with a hypothetical example.

Say the average semester expense at Dayton from all institutional costs is $25k. Now say there are 100 players on the official Dayton football roster. That's $2.5million that the guys on the team owe the University of Dayton.

As we all know, Dayton will not give any football player a red cent. Any money they get from the school has to be earned from institutional scholarships. So - EXCLUDING federal aid - I am willing to bet that institutional scholarships and aid provided by the U of Dayton to those 100 football players is less than or equal to $500k per semester.

In other words, the school itself only pays for 1/5th of the total cost for the guys on the team with their own money. Federal money (pell grants and loans) isn't money from the U of Dayton!


Now compare that with NDSU. Probably something like $7k average cost per semester -> $700k total per semester. Except that right off the bat the athletic dept is picking up the full bill for 63 of the 100 players. Now you're down to $259k. Probably not a lot of institutional aid at NDSU, but there is a little bit. Let's call it $250k left.

In other words, the school itself pays for 64% of the total cost for the guys on the team with their own money.


What a difference!

I can tell you that I don't believe institutional aid should count in place of athletic scholarships - but damn guys, if you're not even paying half the costs of your football team's players with your own money --- you got NO business being in Division I!!!!!!

[MplsBison]

Not so sir, but you are just rehashing the issues already discussed w/o adding anything to the discussion

Gotta keep a presence known for my side of the argument.

Why do think they keep putting out new commercials that say "Elect ___ for president"? Isn't that just re-hashing the same thing? Keeping it fresh in their minds.

[BisonBacker]

I dont think the issue of the "image"or "perception" of FCS will be hurt by including schools. Perception from non FCS seems more to be envious of the fact that we actually have a playoff system to determine the Natl Champ, not a media and money machine that controls BCS.


I agree about the playoff comment and many FBS fans wishing there was a legit playoff at that level. I don't agree however that touting teams that are allegidly playoff caliber when in fact thats not proven (Not saying they are or are not just that its not proven) given the level of competition which is questionable not to mention the commitment of those schools to FCS football. I don't believe it is representative of the quality of football in the FCS at least not for the most part. If that sounds arrogant I'm sorry that's not my intention but I believe its true. I just think its also very unfair to the teams in the conferences that have shown they commit to football at the FCS level and that is where I have the biggest problem with the inclusion of those other teams. If any of the middle tier teams in the BSC, MVFC, Southland, CAA. were to compete in those conferences I'd say its more than likely they would finish on top every year yet many won't make the playoffs due to the higher level of competition they face in their existing conference. I'd much rather watch a game in the playoffs where Youngstown or Illinios State played another opponent like Deleware or New Hampshire Vs Drake playing Grambling or Prairie View A&M.

[BisonBacker]

To clarify my post Rich I think its very unfair if they add to the number of teams in the playoffs and leave out 7-4 teams from say the BSC, MVFC, Southland or CAA so teams like San Diego or Drake can play because they have a 10-1 or 9-2 record and win a conference such as the Pioneeer league or Patriot league. Just doesn't make sense to me.

[Redhawk2010]

To clarify my post Rich I think its very unfair if they add to the number of teams in the playoffs and leave out 7-4 teams from say the BSC, MVFC, Southland or CAA so teams like San Diego or Drake can play because they have a 10-1 or 9-2 record and win a conference such as the Pioneeer league or Patriot league. Just doesn't make sense to me.

Does a CAA school travel to a Pioneer League school? Does a Southland school travel to a Pioneer League school?

[BisonBacker]

Does a CAA school travel to a Pioneer League school? Does a Southland school travel to a Pioneer League school?

If Pioneer or Patriot League schools want to play a school from the CAA or Southland or any other conference are they willing to pay the same amount any of the larger schools have to pay to get the smaller schools to travel? I know NDSU has had to pay 100-150k to get a team to come in for a one and done. A better question is does it make financial sense for Appalachain or Montana to travel to a Pioneer or Patriot school and give up the profit of a home game just so the Pioneer or Patriot school can play a home game in front of 1-6k fans? Can that same Pioneer or Patriot school pay the 100-150k to get Appy or Montana or any other highly ranked team in? You may not like the question but this just illustrates why teams in the Patriot and Pioneer are not going to compete consistently with the upper echilon teams in the FCS. I can't see why any team like NDSU or Montana should have to give up the profit of a home game just so another team can have a home game when they cannot afford the same payout as the visiting team would have to. It is a case of the haves and have nots I'm afraid. Maybe thats not fair but it is the truth. Which also points out just exactly why some of these teams are not seen in the same light.

One other point or comparison to make. Is it really any different to have a team that would only finish in the middle to lower tier of the CAA or MVFC play in a playoff game? Isn't that comparable to the FBS bowl system where you have 6-5 team playing in a bowlgame?

[phoenix3]

This point may have already have been made, But a reduction in scholarships, IMO, is a terrible idea for the "small" private schools. We already have a hard time getting quality walk-ons to join our team. Currently, a walk on pays about $31,000 more per year at Elon than App as an example. A half scholarship player pays about $11,000 more at Elon than a pure walk-on pays at App. Reducing scholarships in FCS widens the gap further. If anything, scholarships should be increased at the FCS level.

[RichH2]

PFL to get games has to schedule away games with CAA et al. If they want H&H pay the going rate. Building a resume takes some time. I realize in today's world people want instantaneous results. Unreal expectation. Other conferences owe nothing to PFL other than an opportunity to compete. It is up to PFL schools to do so. They travel all over the country anyway in conference. Pick up a game or 2 with PLand NEC then work up to CAA SoCon.

An ongoing issue about who gets left out. LU got shafted ( from my point of view) a number of times . No I dont have much sympathy for a 7-4 team not making playoffs as an at large. You complain of playoff bid being an unjustified reward to PFL squad as they dont spend enuf. I'm not much in favor of rewards. Logically 'it follows I am opposed to rewarding a mediocre 7-4 team just because they fund the right number of scholarships.

I am of the opinion that Playoffs s/b inclusive not a private club for CAA etal. PFL s/b given a chance to grow. Up to them whether they take it or not. ONE slot of 24.
If they screw it up it is on them. Lose 49-0 every year. Trust me PFL will gear up or drop out of playoffs again like the Ivies.

[BisonBacker]

PFL to get games has to schedule away games with CAA et al. If they want H&H pay the going rate. Building a resume takes some time. I realize in today's world people want instantaneous results. Unreal expectation. Other conferences owe nothing to PFL other than an opportunity to compete. It is up to PFL schools to do so. They travel all over the country anyway in conference. Pick up a game or 2 with PLand NEC then work up to CAA SoCon.

An ongoing issue about who gets left out. LU got shafted ( from my point of view) a number of times . No I dont have much sympathy for a 7-4 team not making playoffs as an at large. You complain of playoff bid being an unjustified reward to PFL squad as they dont spend enuf. I'm not much in favor of rewards. Logically 'it follows I am opposed to rewarding a mediocre 7-4 team just because they fund the right number of scholarships.

I am of the opinion that Playoffs s/b inclusive not a private club for CAA etal. PFL s/b given a chance to grow. Up to them whether they take it or not. ONE slot of 24.
If they screw it up it is on them. Lose 49-0 every year. Trust me PFL will gear up or drop out of playoffs again like the Ivies.

I appreciate that reply Rich. It is hard to disagree with what you wrote and it may surprise you that I can see both sides of this debate. I really don't want to come off as sounding like an elitist and I can see where some would think that. But the reality is to compete at a higher level it takes cash. It's no different than anything else in life. As to your last point I would hope you are correct. It doesn't do the school or the players any good if they get embarrassed year after year. Not saying it would happen every year either but I believe it would be the common theme outside of the occasional year of an upset.

[RichH2]

Agree, it takes $$$ to successfully and consistently compete at higher level of any sport.Whether PFL willing to do so certainly the key to whether they will be a laughing stock in FCS or not.As it stands now, top of PFL does not spend significantly less on sports than the rest of us . They need to decide whether to adapt their need model to grants primarily as opposed to loan and work packages and in some cases expand amount. If not, other than an occasional stroke of luck , they will find it embarrassing to say the least

[BisonHype!]

I'm not a fan of any reductions at the FCS level either. If the FBS teams lose five and we only lose three, at least that brings us a little closer, but I'd rather see no reductions at all, or just reductions at the FBS level.

A reduction in three football scholarships also means three women's team scholarships have to go.

I would be in favor of this if we have to do cuts, but would rather see no cuts at all. If the smaller FCS schools want cuts, maybe they should be in Div-II...xtroublex

[DetroitFlyer]

PFL schedules have been and will continue to improve. My Flyers are traveling to Illinois State to kick off the 2012 season and to Youngstown State to kick off the 2013 season. Even Valpo traveled to YSU this past season. As I mentioned earlier, PFL teams have already defeated a number of 63 athletic scholarship teams. We have also lost a good number of those games. BUT, in general we have been as competitive as any other FCS programs on any given Saturday. Now, we also happen to be one of few FCS conferences that are expanding, (Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer). So, those schools might still play some lower division games as they come up to speed. Campbell actually finished above my Flyers in the PFL this past season, so they are well on their way. All of these ND fans need to spend some time researching the MEAC and OVC before they start spouting off about the PFL. Before you make another post, do some research and let us all know how both of the conferences have fared in the FCS playoffs.... In fact, prove that you actually looked into this question by posting your results in this thread. AFTER you have done the research, let us all know how funding 63 athletic scholarships for football has somehow proven that those programs deserve autobids....

[BisonHype!]

You are awfully upset. Please don't throw all of us into a group because of one poster that gets your pantalones in a bunch. Throw the poo not at all of us, but throw the poo at the person that has done your bunching.... otherwise we all have the poo on us... and nobody like poo on them when it is not warranted... Say no to unwarranted poo throwing.:p

[Saint3333]

Reducing scholarships at the FBS and FCS level reduces the gap between the lower FBS and upper FCS programs. FCS programs on average would have 5 more FBS caliber players on their teams each year, I like it.

[Redhawk2010]

If Pioneer or Patriot League schools want to play a school from the CAA or Southland or any other conference are they willing to pay the same amount any of the larger schools have to pay to get the smaller schools to travel? I know NDSU has had to pay 100-150k to get a team to come in for a one and done. A better question is does it make financial sense for Appalachain or Montana to travel to a Pioneer or Patriot school and give up the profit of a home game just so the Pioneer or Patriot school can play a home game in front of 1-6k fans? Can that same Pioneer or Patriot school pay the 100-150k to get Appy or Montana or any other highly ranked team in? You may not like the question but this just illustrates why teams in the Patriot and Pioneer are not going to compete consistently with the upper echilon teams in the FCS. I can't see why any team like NDSU or Montana should have to give up the profit of a home game just so another team can have a home game when they cannot afford the same payout as the visiting team would have to. It is a case of the haves and have nots I'm afraid. Maybe thats not fair but it is the truth. Which also points out just exactly why some of these teams are not seen in the same light.

One other point or comparison to make. Is it really any different to have a team that would only finish in the middle to lower tier of the CAA or MVFC play in a playoff game? Isn't that comparable to the FBS bowl system where you have 6-5 team playing in a bowlgame?

So in other words, you're more than happy being a smaller, less-known version of the BCS? Got it..

That's the same BS that gets thrown around time and time again at the FBS level. And we see how well that's working out for Boise State... they travel all over the country playing schools at home (or within just hours) and beating them, but they still don't get anywhere.

If you're going to b*tch and moan about the PFL's schedule then the "powerhouse" schools who think they should be kept out of the playoffs because of the schedule need to put those PFL schools onto the schedule and play them.

[RichH2]

Being a PL guy I absolutely understand your frustration.Over the past week, I have looked up PFL scheds and results. It seems to me, as with most conferences, top 3-4 teams of PFL can compete with schollie schools. Not win too many yet but compete. PFL ,perhaps being most national of all our confernces, should have a place in the playoffs. However, you will not be successful unless and until , the overall level of talent in PFl is improved. Not my concern how or what financial model conference decides to use. Is it enough to just be invited and get clobbered? I hope not. Good luck

[RichH2]

So in other words, you're more than happy being a smaller, less-known version of the BCS? Got it..

That's the same BS that gets thrown around time and time again at the FBS level. And we see how well that's working out for Boise State... they travel all over the country playing schools at home (or within just hours) and beating them, but they still don't get anywhere.

If you're going to b*tch and moan about the PFL's schedule then the "powerhouse" schools who think they should be kept out of the playoffs because of the schedule need to put those PFL schools onto the schedule and play them.
NO, Redhawk, they have no obligation to play you. It is your job to get games whenever and wherever you can. PFL has to build its own resume and has indeed improved its OOC a bit. FCS does not owe you anything but the opportunity to compete. How and how well you do that is up to you

[Redhawk2010]

NO, Redhawk, they have no obligation to play you. It is your job to get games whenever and wherever you can. PFL has to build its own resume and has indeed improved its OOC a bit. FCS does not owe you anything but the opportunity to compete. How and how well you do that is up to you

Might want to learn a thing or two.. The Redhawks don't play in the PFL to start with...

Apparently by reading here, "the FCS" doesn't even want to do that. If they don't fit NDSU's standards, then they aren't "FCS material" apparently...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://www.cbssports.com/collegefootball/story/16811421/emmert-stipend-fouryear-scholarships-not-going-anywhere


INDIANAPOLIS -- NCAA President Mark Emmert tells the Associated Press that a $2,000 stipend for athletes and four-year scholarships are here to stay, despite opposition from schools.

One-hundred sixty schools are calling for an override of the rule giving athletes money beyond the cost of tuition, room and board, books and fees. The rule was approved by the Division I Board of Directors in October. Emmert says he expects only minor modifications.

Another 82 schools want the governing body to reconsider awarding scholarships for the duration of the athletes' career rather than renewing them annually. Emmert says he does not expect that rule, also approved in October, to be modified.

This is the real reason why scholarship reductions are being rammed through. Because scholarships are going up in value 5-20% because of this "full cost of attendance" initiative spearheaded by Jim Delany (and enabled by the toothless Mark Emmert).

What's going to happen is that schools, already tightly squeezed for budget as it is, will either fork over the 20% tuition hike for athletes, or (more likely) fully fund fewer scholarships across the board. Furthermore, the hike might also make some private schools consider dropping football altogether.

The reduction of scholarships means a net reduction of $100,000 to $500,000 a year for football programs - which will be eaten up by the scholarship hike.

These issues, IMO, are related.

[RichH2]

Might want to learn a thing or two.. The Redhawks don't play in the PFL to start with...

Apparently by reading here, "the FCS" doesn't even want to do that. If they don't fit NDSU's standards, then they aren't "FCS material" apparently...

Really only a couple of posters.NDSU fans deservedly feeling their oats but only a few are so completely opposed. This scenario has played out before with the Patriot league and NEC and to a lesser extent Big South. The top tier of all these leagues are successful OOC. That success is bought with good coaches and great recruiting , which includes sufficient aid to attract better players.

I do apologize for the unintentional slur but I have no idea what a Redhawk is? Nor do I care. The point remains the same

[BisonBacker]

Being a PL guy I absolutely understand your frustration.Over the past week, I have looked up PFL scheds and results. It seems to me, as with most conferences, top 3-4 teams of PFL can compete with schollie schools. Not win too many yet but compete. PFL ,perhaps being most national of all our confernces, should have a place in the playoffs. However, you will not be successful unless and until , the overall level of talent in PFl is improved. Not my concern how or what financial model conference decides to use. Is it enough to just be invited and get clobbered? I hope not. Good luck

Rich you get it, Redhawk2010 apparently does not.

[RichH2]

always did BBacker, our difference of opinion merely whether or not they should get autobid. PFL's, or any other conference, success or failure is totally up to them

Not being sarcastic, but what is a Redhawk?

[MplsBison]

Being a PL guy I absolutely understand your frustration.Over the past week, I have looked up PFL scheds and results. It seems to me, as with most conferences, top 3-4 teams of PFL can compete with schollie schools. Not win too many yet but compete. PFL ,perhaps being most national of all our confernces, should have a place in the playoffs. However, you will not be successful unless and until , the overall level of talent in PFl is improved. Not my concern how or what financial model conference decides to use. Is it enough to just be invited and get clobbered? I hope not. Good luck

They do have a place in the playoffs.

If any PFL school would have the guts to schedule three of the best CAA, MVFC or SoCon teams in the same year and beat them all, then go undefeated in PFL play - they'd get an at-large spot in the playoffs.

That's your place.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

They do have a place in the playoffs.

If any PFL school would have the guts to schedule three of the best CAA, MVFC or SoCon teams in the same year and beat them all, then go undefeated in PFL play - they'd get an at-large spot in the playoffs.

That's your place.

Ah yes, the "Albany method" of qualifying for an at-large place. How many at-large bids resulted from that?

[RichH2]

They do have a place in the playoffs.

If any PFL school would have the guts to schedule three of the best CAA, MVFC or SoCon teams in the same year and beat them all, then go undefeated in PFL play - they'd get an at-large spot in the playoffs.

That's your place.



Fishing again eH? So PFL team must be not only competitve but must be the premptive Natl Champ by beating top 3 conferences just to get into playoffs. Too ridiculous even to mock

[MplsBison]

Fishing again eH? So PFL team must be not only competitve but must be the premptive Natl Champ by beating top 3 conferences just to get into playoffs. Too ridiculous even to mock

Nothing else you can do - PFL conference schedule is far too weak to have any merit of its own. It will always be that way so long as the schools refuse to provide appropriate aid to attract talented players.

[MplsBison]

Ah yes, the "Albany method" of qualifying for an at-large place. How many at-large bids resulted from that?

So your argument is that because the PFL schools aren't good enough to earn at-large bids and thus the only way to get them more bids into the playoffs is to give them an automatic bid....we therefore should give them an automatic bid.....because that would allow them to get more bids into the playoffs?


I suppose that works for a lot of things. Afterall, if my boss paid me more money, I'd have more money...therefore he should pay more more money...so that I can have more money. I like this...

[DetroitFlyer]

Notice how not a single ND poster has answered my MEAC / OVC question? Sad that they choose to embarrass their school by being lazy and ignoring the question....

[Lehigh Football Nation]

So your argument is that because the PFL schools aren't good enough to earn at-large bids and thus the only way to get them more bids into the playoffs is to give them an automatic bid....we therefore should give them an automatic bid.....because that would allow them to get more bids into the playoffs?


I suppose that works for a lot of things. Afterall, if my boss paid me more money, I'd have more money...therefore he should pay more more money...so that I can have more money. I like this...

I'm eagerly awaiting your justification for the poll tax.

How many CAA, Big Sky, SoCon or MVFC teams have scheduled "the best CAA, MVFC or SoCon teams in the same year and beat them all"? That's not a prerequisite for those teams to make the playoffs, so why should it be for the PFL or any other at-large from any other conference?

The PFL's argument is that their teams don't have a fair path to the playoffs. And they don't. And in the eyes of many fans, they need to pay their poll taxes (which is what the Big South and NEC had to do, in effect) in order to even have the right to participate. Sorry, that's not how this is supposed to work.

[BisonBacker]

PFL schedules have been and will continue to improve. My Flyers are traveling to Illinois State to kick off the 2012 season and to Youngstown State to kick off the 2013 season. Even Valpo traveled to YSU this past season. As I mentioned earlier, PFL teams have already defeated a number of 63 athletic scholarship teams. We have also lost a good number of those games. BUT, in general we have been as competitive as any other FCS programs on any given Saturday. Now, we also happen to be one of few FCS conferences that are expanding, (Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer). So, those schools might still play some lower division games as they come up to speed. Campbell actually finished above my Flyers in the PFL this past season, so they are well on their way. All of these ND fans need to spend some time researching the MEAC and OVC before they start spouting off about the PFL. Before you make another post, do some research and let us all know how both of the conferences have fared in the FCS playoffs.... In fact, prove that you actually looked into this question by posting your results in this thread. AFTER you have done the research, let us all know how funding 63 athletic scholarships for football has somehow proven that those programs deserve autobids....

OK Flyer I'll play along just once but let me say I don't think you really want to go here. This doesn't bolster your arguement. In fact it does just the opposite and proves my point.
Valpo got crushed by Youngstown last season 77-13. You want me to go futher to view the embarassing results? Mind you Youngstown finished 4-4 in our conference. Do you really want to go here???? Did they play 4 quarters in this game or was there an emergency mercy rule invoked?

[BisonBacker]

Notice how not a single ND poster has answered my MEAC / OVC question? Sad that they choose to embarrass their school by being lazy and ignoring the question....

I'd say you should be the one who is embarassed. You try to prove a point and using your example you have managed to prove mine.

[Redhawk2010]

Not being sarcastic, but what is a Redhawk?

It would be the mascot at Southeast Missouri State University and Miami University (OH).

[Redhawk2010]

They do have a place in the playoffs.

If any PFL school would have the guts to schedule three of the best CAA, MVFC or SoCon teams in the same year and beat them all, then go undefeated in PFL play - they'd get an at-large spot in the playoffs.

That's your place.

Nice. So how many CAA, or SoCon teams did NDSU beat this year to get into the playoffs?

And how many of those teams are willing to go on the road for something like that? Gotta be some give and take..

[BisonBacker]

Nice. So how many CAA, or SoCon teams did NDSU beat this year to get into the playoffs?

And how many of those teams are willing to go on the road for something like that? Gotta be some give and take..

That would be One from both of those conferences In the playoffs. We don't have to go out there to play them as playing in the MVFC is more than enough competition to ready us for the Playoffs as was evident this year. Now if you could only say the same about the conference you play in you may have an argument.

[BisonBacker]

Nice. So how many CAA, or SoCon teams did NDSU beat this year to get into the playoffs?

And how many of those teams are willing to go on the road for something like that? Gotta be some give and take..

See the answer Rich gave its spot on.


NO, Redhawk, they have no obligation to play you. It is your job to get games whenever and wherever you can. PFL has to build its own resume and has indeed improved its OOC a bit. FCS does not owe you anything but the opportunity to compete. How and how well you do that is up to you

[Redhawk2010]

You guys ARE THE BCS that is smaller and unknown!

"You have to play the big boys to be a part of it"

"The big boys don't want to play you"

"You don't play the big boys so you don't deserve it"

LOL WOW.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'd say you should be the one who is embarassed. You try to prove a point and using your example you have managed to prove mine.

Yeah, EPIC FAIL. You did not answer the question or do the research. Please explain to this board how funding 63 athletic scholarships has helped the OVC and the MEAC prove they deserve an autobid....

We are waiting all wise one....

[BisonBacker]

You guys ARE THE BCS that is smaller and unknown!

"You have to play the big boys to be a part of it"

"The big boys don't want to play you"

"You don't play the big boys so you don't deserve it"

LOL WOW.

You should really do some research before spouting off. Most of the teams that play in the MVFC, CAA ect do schedule FBS games. Have you ever heard of schools like Wisconsin, Iowa, Iowa State, Michigan, need I go on?
Since NDSU moved up here are the OOC FBS games we have played.

2005-2006 Ball State Result NDSU won 29-24
2006-2007 Minnesota Result NDSU lost 9-10 blocked field goal in the final minute.
2007-2008 Central Michigan Result NDSU won 44-14 Central Michigan went on that year to win the MAC
2007-2008 Minnesota Result NDSU won 27-21
2008-2009 Wyoming Result NDSU lost 13-16
2009-2010 Iowa State Reulst NDSU Lost 17-34
2010-2011 Kansas Reuslt NDSU won 6-3
2011-2012 Minnesota Result NDSU won 37-24
Next season we travel to Colorado State
2013 we travel to Kansas State
2014 we travel to Iowa State.

Obviously FBS teams do want to play us and are willing to pay for the game. Difference is NDSU competes at this level fairly well. No it's not the upper echilong premier teams that play us for the most part for the very same reason that NDSU and Appy (pick the school) don't see the sense in giving up a home game and the revenue to come out and play you. Honest question redhawk, what is the average attendance for a home game for you guys?

[BisonBacker]

Yeah, EPIC FAIL. You did not answer the question or do the research. Please explain to this board how funding 63 athletic scholarships has helped the OVC and the MEAC prove they deserve an autobid....

We are waiting all wise one....

I'm sorry you really don't understand or comprehend very well so I'm done trying to debate with you. Obviously in your world 2+2=5

[BisonBacker]

PFL schedules have been and will continue to improve. My Flyers are traveling to Illinois State to kick off the 2012 season and to Youngstown State to kick off the 2013 season. Even Valpo traveled to YSU this past season. As I mentioned earlier, PFL teams have already defeated a number of 63 athletic scholarship teams. We have also lost a good number of those games. BUT, in general we have been as competitive as any other FCS programs on any given Saturday. Now, we also happen to be one of few FCS conferences that are expanding, (Campbell, Stetson, and Mercer). So, those schools might still play some lower division games as they come up to speed. Campbell actually finished above my Flyers in the PFL this past season, so they are well on their way. All of these ND fans need to spend some time researching the MEAC and OVC before they start spouting off about the PFL. Before you make another post, do some research and let us all know how both of the conferences have fared in the FCS playoffs.... In fact, prove that you actually looked into this question by posting your results in this thread. AFTER you have done the research, let us all know how funding 63 athletic scholarships for football has somehow proven that those programs deserve autobids....

Geez it's like driving by a car accident you know you shouldn't look but just can't help it. Here is where you are wrong. See the bolded part. I don't need to do any research, your arguement is so flawed and full of BS it's really not worthy of any reply.

[Redhawk2010]

You should really do some research before spouting off. Most of the teams that play in the MVFC, CAA ect do schedule FBS games. Have you ever heard of schools like Wisconsin, Iowa, Iowa State, Michigan, need I go on?
Since NDSU moved up here are the OOC FBS games we have played.

2005-2006 Ball State Result NDSU won 29-24
2006-2007 Minnesota Result NDSU lost 9-10 blocked field goal in the final minute.
2007-2008 Central Michigan Result NDSU won 44-14 Central Michigan went on that year to win the MAC
2007-2008 Minnesota Result NDSU won 27-21
2008-2009 Wyoming Result NDSU lost 13-16
2009-2010 Iowa State Reulst NDSU Lost 17-34
2010-2011 Kansas Reuslt NDSU won 6-3
2011-2012 Minnesota Result NDSU won 37-24
Next season we travel to Colorado State
2013 we travel to Kansas State
2014 we travel to Iowa State.

Obviously FBS teams do want to play us and are willing to pay for the game. Difference is NDSU competes at this level fairly well. No it's not the upper echilong premier teams that play us for the most part for the very same reason that NDSU and Appy (pick the school) don't see the sense in giving up a home game and the revenue to come out and play you. Honest question redhawk, what is the average attendance for a home game for you guys?

Well I see they don't teach reading at NDSU, huh? Because my comment and yours have nothing to do with each other. But it's okay... you've drank the kool-aid and won't change your mind.

And I'm not sure why you keep bring SEMO into this conversation anyway? Last I checked, SEMO does give out football scholarships..

[BisonBacker]

Well I see they don't teach reading at NDSU, huh? Because my comment and yours have nothing to do with each other. But it's okay... you've drank the kool-aid and won't change your mind.

And I'm not sure why you keep bring SEMO into this conversation anyway? Last I checked, SEMO does give out football scholarships..

No you want the top teams to "Give up something" and why should they? You don't comprehend very well. This isn't about what you want it's about common sense. Sorry if you don't like reality but no way does any team like Montana, NDSU, Georgia Southern, UNI, Appy ect need to "Give" anything to the teams you want included. They need to step up like Rich said and go out and schedule games. They may make some money from the schools I just listed to go on the road and play them but no way in hell does NDSU or anyone else have to go out and "Give" them a damn thing.

Maybe SEMO should just schedule some of the teams you want to give an autobid to. Maybe SEMO's record might end up being higher than 3-8 but than again you'd have to pay them to come play like any of the rest of us. Or maybe you could just be charitable and "Give" them a game with you guys on their turf.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'm sorry you really don't understand or comprehend very well so I'm done trying to debate with you. Obviously in your world 2+2=5

Yep, hard to debate when you are 100% wrong. It is like taking candy from a baby, (or an NDSU fan). Yet another EPIC FAIL.

[BisonBacker]

Yep, hard to debate when you are 100% wrong. It is like taking candy from a baby, (or an NDSU fan). Yet another EPIC FAIL.

You are way to funny. You illustrate a 77-13 beatdown and the team you are touting/conference you are using as an example was the losing team. Talk about Epic Fail my god time for you to put away the parents computer. Way to funny!

[Redhawk2010]

No you want the top teams to "Give up something" and why should they? You don't comprehend very well. This isn't about what you want it's about common sense. Sorry if you don't like reality but no way does any team like Montana, NDSU, Georgia Southern, UNI, Appy ect need to "Give" anything to the teams you want included. They need to step up like Rich said and go out and schedule games. They may make some money from the schools I just listed to go on the road and play them but no way in hell does NDSU or anyone else have to go out and "Give" them a damn thing.

Maybe SEMO should just schedule some of the teams you want to give an autobid to. Maybe SEMO's record might end up being higher than 3-8 but than again you'd have to pay them to come play like any of the rest of us. Or maybe you could just be charitable and "Give" them a game with you guys on their turf.

How many of those teams play home and home with a PFL school?

[FargoBison]

Yeah, EPIC FAIL. You did not answer the question or do the research. Please explain to this board how funding 63 athletic scholarships has helped the OVC and the MEAC prove they deserve an autobid....

We are waiting all wise one....

Well both have at least been competitive with some damn good teams, including in some games vs eventual national champs. That said even if you fund 63 scholarships there is still a gap in coaching salaries, facilities, etc.

It's not my fault the PFL is a DIII conference in DI, I wish the NCAA let them compete at the proper level be that in DIII or DII.

[FargoBison]

How many of those teams play home and home with a PFL school?

Why should NDSU or App State or Montana play a home and home with a PFL school? They are irrelevant and them being irrelevant is their own damn fault, NDSU will only play FCS schools in a home and home that are of interest to the fanbase.

When Valpo came up here for one game, they were without a doubt the worst team we have played since joining the FCS and I'm including the non-DI teams that we have played.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Why should NDSU or App State or Montana play a home and home with a PFL school? They are irrelevant and them being irrelevant is their own damn fault, NDSU will only play FCS schools in a home and home that are of interest to the fanbase.

Drake played home-and-homes with not one but two playoff teams this year, Montana State and Lehigh.

Dayton played a home-and-home against Fordham, including the year they won the PL title and game UMass a run for their money - and beat them both times.

Man, win one national championship, and the rest of us are all hoi polloi? xlolx

[FargoBison]

Man, win one national championship, and the rest of us are all hoi polloi? xlolx

Not really, just the PFL. But I've never been an admirer of the PFL.

I'd fine with playing Lehigh in a home and home. The PFL teams can come up here for some cash if they like but I doubt they will.

[DetroitFlyer]

Not really, just the PFL. But I've never been an admirer of the PFL.

I'd fine with playing Lehigh in a home and home. The PFL teams can come up here for some cash if they like but I doubt they will.

Never had an opinion of NDSU, but if this dude is typical of their fan base I feel sorry for them.

[RichH2]

Geez, the thread has devolved into a muck and mire ***** slinging contest. The issue is not whether anyone likes the PFL or for that matter any MVFC team. PFL has improved its OOC over the last 5 years or so . Enuf to get an at large bid for Champ, probably not , but closer. Field going to 24, PFL s/b given an autobid. How much PFL or anyone spends on schollies none of our business. It is up to PFL to succeed or fail? No one else s/b permitted to predetermine whether they can or cant succeed. Likewise, other than a fair opportunity to compete FCS owes nothing to PFL.

[DetroitFlyer]

You are way to funny. You illustrate a 77-13 beatdown and the team you are touting/conference you are using as an example was the losing team. Talk about Epic Fail my god time for you to put away the parents computer. Way to funny!

Wow, I hope you do not have a degree yet. Maybe there is still time for you to take some reading classes. Answer the question about the OVC and MEAC.... We are all so looking forward to your answer....

[BisonBacker]

Never had an opinion of NDSU, but if this dude is typical of their fan base I feel sorry for them.

As if you represent Dayton very well? At least NDSU has fans and supports the team at the level we are at. I don't disagree with FargoBison but I also see Rich2's point. If it happens it happens as far as the playoff field expanding and the PFL getting an autobid (which personally I think is a wrong). Their conference champion will find out what football outside of the PFL is like in the playoffs. I'd go so far as to say I think that the PFL's top teams would struggle to win against the DII top tier teams. Again just my opinion. I'm to the point now though with reading the few posts from the FEW fans they have on the boards that if they do get the autobid I will enjoy the hell out of watching them get the ***** stomped out of them in the first round of any playoff they may be lucky enough to be included in. Enjoy the day guys its a great one! Have fun

[RichH2]

And so it continues. How about we actually get back to the topic rather than just slamming each other's schools. If you 2 cant then get a room

[Redhawk2010]

Geez, the thread has devolved into a muck and mire ***** slinging contest. The issue is not whether anyone likes the PFL or for that matter any MVFC team. PFL has improved its OOC over the last 5 years or so . Enuf to get an at large bid for Champ, probably not , but closer. Field going to 24, PFL s/b given an autobid. How much PFL or anyone spends on schollies none of our business. It is up to PFL to succeed or fail? No one else s/b permitted to predetermine whether they can or cant succeed. Likewise, other than a fair opportunity to compete FCS owes nothing to PFL.


I don't really agree with PFL teams not offering scholarships because it really doesn't make much sense to me. But that's the school's decision and I don't know why it is anybody else's decision to keep them from competing for the national championship. Let them play and if they get it handed to them, they get it handed to them. But AnyGivenSaturday you just never know, right?

At this time, I don't believe the FCS gives them a fair opportunity to compete...

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Their conference champion will find out what football outside of the PFL is like in the playoffs.

* PFL teams have scheduled not only one-off games vs. "full scholarship" competition, they have done so with home-and-homes on different occasions with playoff teams.

* Albany had "theater of pain" tours against the likes of Georgia Southern, Delaware, Maine and the like on the road - and beaten some of them - but still didn't get graced with a playoff invite until they got an autobid

* Stony Brook, a team that never played in the playoffs until this year, traveled to Sam Houston State and gave the Bearkats one of their toughest playoff victories

* Two years after qualifying for the playoffs for the first time as an autobid, Lehigh beat the A-10 champions on the road, Richmond

Seems to me that the only way to find out how a PFL team might do in the playoffs is to put a PFL team in the playoffs.

[FargoBison]

The PFL schools need to be more proactive like the NEC is, get your name out there and build your reputation. They can't sit around and ask for home and homes, you are going to have to hit the road.

I realize some schools like Jacksonville and a few others have made strides in that area but more than a few other PFL schools are woefully behind.

As for a playoff bid I'll let them join if they agree to never ask for an FCS scholarship cut for as long as they are a playoff member, I do worry that some of these conferences may move in and instead of building their programs up they decide to tear others down to their level. That is what happened in DII and many Bison fans are worried that it could happen again.

[RichH2]

San Diego, Jacksonvile, Dayton and Drake have made strides. An autobid goes to the League Champ. So I wouldn't be so concerned with the bottom of any conference. As top schools improve the rest either have to sustain finishing last every year, improve also ,or move to another conference

[DetroitFlyer]

Dayton finished ranked in the I-AA top 25 way back in 1996 and 1997! In 2010, both Jacksonville and Dayton finished ranked in the top 25.... There is absolutely no way that the PFL champion in any given season would fare any worse than the OVC champ or the MEAC champ has over time.....

[DetroitFlyer]

The PFL schools need to be more proactive like the NEC is, get your name out there and build your reputation. They can't sit around and ask for home and homes, you are going to have to hit the road.

I realize some schools like Jacksonville and a few others have made strides in that area but more than a few other PFL schools are woefully behind.

As for a playoff bid I'll let them join if they agree to never ask for an FCS scholarship cut for as long as they are a playoff member, I do worry that some of these conferences may move in and instead of building their programs up they decide to tear others down to their level. That is what happened in DII and many Bison fans are worried that it could happen again.

Oh, you mean something like the Flyers traveling to Illinois State in 2012 and Youngstown State in 2013? Gee, we should hire you as the PFL public relations person.... We would have never thought of that on our own....

[FargoBison]

Oh, you mean something like the Flyers traveling to Illinois State in 2012 and Youngstown State in 2013? Gee, we should hire you as the PFL public relations person.... We would have never thought of that on our own....

Well I'd say that is certainly a step in the right direction.

[MplsBison]

Dayton finished ranked in the I-AA top 25 way back in 1996 and 1997! In 2010, both Jacksonville and Dayton finished ranked in the top 25.... There is absolutely no way that the PFL champion in any given season would fare any worse than the OVC champ or the MEAC champ has over time.....

Top 25 means nothing unless you can prove that you can beat scholarship teams. How many has Dayton beat since moving up to I-AA? Or better yet - how many have they even scheduled? Being competitive gets you nothing.

Beat scholarship teams in non-conference, finally do enough to earn an at-large bid, win the first round game (which guaranteed won't be in Dayton) -- then we'll talk about "deserves".

[MplsBison]

I don't really agree with PFL teams not offering scholarships because it really doesn't make much sense to me. But that's the school's decision and I don't know why it is anybody else's decision to keep them from competing for the national championship. Let them play and if they get it handed to them, they get it handed to them. But AnyGivenSaturday you just never know, right?

At this time, I don't believe the FCS gives them a fair opportunity to compete...

It's not just about not officially offering scholarships. We know why they don't do that: they don't have any money.

It's about the lack of investment in the football program as a whole. Coach's salary, operating budget, facilities -- you name it, Dayton's program has had no significant increase in investment since the DIII days.

You want to run your program like a DIII program, then that's what you are.

[MplsBison]

Nice. So how many CAA, or SoCon teams did NDSU beat this year to get into the playoffs?

And how many of those teams are willing to go on the road for something like that? Gotta be some give and take..

Didn't have to - they play in an actual, hard conference. Dayton would lose every game playing an MVFC schedule.

That's the point, strength of conference play. PFL wins mean nothing.

[Redhawk2010]

It's not just about not officially offering scholarships. We know why they don't do that: they don't have any money.

It's about the lack of investment in the football program as a whole. Coach's salary, operating budget, facilities -- you name it, Dayton's program has had no significant increase in investment since the DIII days.

You want to run your program like a DIII program, then that's what you are.

You do realize that those schools travel all over the country, right? You realize it's not cheap to fly from Jacksonille, FL to San Diego, CA? Stay in a hotel?

And no they are a DIVISION ONE program and should be treated as such. And you NDSU fans need to get off your high horse.

[MplsBison]

You do realize that those schools travel all over the country, right? You realize it's not cheap to fly from Jacksonille, FL to San Diego, CA? Stay in a hotel?

And no they are a DIVISION ONE program and should be treated as such. And you NDSU fans need to get off your high horse.

I do realize that the travel budget is probably the only budget increase these football programs have seen since the DIII days. It's the corner they've painted themselves into by refusing to drop their varsity programs even though they all know they can't afford a proper DI program.


They're DI only because the NCAA doesn't care enough about the integrity of DI football to force these schools to drop varsity status.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Dayton would lose every game playing an MVFC schedule.

Incorrect, idiot.

[Redhawk2010]

I do realize that the travel budget is probably the only budget increase these football programs have seen since the DIII days. It's the corner they've painted themselves into by refusing to drop their varsity programs even though they all know they can't afford a proper DI program.


They're DI only because the NCAA doesn't care enough about the integrity of DI football to force these schools to drop varsity status.

They choose not to afford NDSU's definition of a "proper DI program." And we all know that a school must meet their approval or they're just not good enough..

[RichH2]

I dread any Dakota school ever winning Natl Champ again. NDSU an awesome team, thye and their fane should revel in the win but I do wish they could do so w/o the overweaning arrogance.

[FargoBison]

Incorrect, idiot.

Yeah they could maybe win one game, but I wouldn't go much further than that.

[FargoBison]

I dread any Dakota school ever winning Natl Champ again. NDSU an awesome team, thye and their fane should revel in the win but I do wish they could do so w/o the overweaning arrogance.

I had the exact same thoughts when NDSU was 3-8, the PFL like Mpls says is a DIII conference in DI and it is fine that they want to be that. Unlike Mpls I have no issue with them being in the FCS but I'd like to see a lot more in regards to them getting an autobid.

[RichH2]

I had the exact same thoughts when NDSU was 3-8, the PFL like Mpls says is a DIII conference in DI and it is fine that they want to be that. Unlike Mpls I have no issue with them being in the FCS but I'd like to see a lot more in regards to them getting an autobid.

Do apologize for slurring all of the Dakota's ( heck most of my Mom's family lives outside of Fargo) but there are a couple of posters that irritate me to no end. Hard to be a good loser for most , s/n/b so hard to be a graceful winner

[BisonBacker]

Rich,
What you are seeing is a reaction to the thread title. Debating reducing schoalrships to many fans NOT JUST NDSU means reducing the quality of the level of play we are at right now. In other words just another version of watering down the division which is exactly what happened at the DII level years ago and exactly what forced many teams to move up back then. Back then teams who couldn't compete at that level rather than improving themselves pushed for reductions in scholarships and destroyed what was DII as we knew it. NDSU and it's fans watched the the detioration of DII and unfortunately at the time didn't move up when they should have. Now fast forward to present day and we are seeing the same attempts at this level. The only problem is the only place to go from here is FBS. I think that is why you are seeing the comments here. Agree or disagree I don't think it's just Bison fans who see it this way.

[RichH2]

No, I see no need to reduce schollies at our level. LFN may have a point that it is a sop to get real cost amendment thru

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I don't either, but the change of 10 bench-warmers' half scholarships to need-based aid will do little to affect competitiveness at the FCS level. As a matter of fact, it's quite possible that FCS teams will not miss a single player they would get anyway, as long as those athletes can accept that those partial scholarships are just coming from a different place.

Now FBS schools, who have an "all or nothing" system of scholarships, that's a different deal. They're losing full-paid kids to need-based aid, which means kids are going from getting everything paid to (at best) partial need-based scholarships. It's very different.