Which Northeast/Mid-Atlantic I-AA programs could go I-A?

[LUHawker]

With the line between I-A and I-AA becoming more blurred, which I-AA programs could make the move to I-A? I'm not advocating this, just thinking about it. I think if a handful of schools made the move, then they quite possibly would do it together. Which schools in the NE/Mid-Atlantic region could do it? My list is based on quality of program, quality of facilities, size of facilities and potential to somewhat easily expand, alumni and fan support (both $ and bodies) and institutional support.

Here is my list:

Delaware
UMass
Villanova
Lehigh
JMU
Penn
Harvard
Princeton
Yale

The Ivies, admittedly, could be dropped simply because of lack of support from the institutions, although I think Penn and Princeton do demonstrate support for football.

On the fringe I might put Colgate, but location and fan support would make it a very tough jump.

[colgate13]

Could make the move?

From your list, Delaware and JMU. Not so sure about the rest. Long term you could think about the entire CAA being a I-A conference, but that's about it.

[colgate13]

On the fringe I might put Colgate, but location and fan support would make it a very tough jump.

And as for us, there was a time when 10K+ people would come out to games. If we were good, people will come, but it would never be more than 15,000 people. That's 20% of Madison County!

[bluehenbillk]

Could make the move?

From your list, Delaware and JMU. Not so sure about the rest. Long term you could think about the entire CAA being a I-A conference, but that's about it.

I'd agree with that, putting the Ivies on there is a waste of time, they start their season in mid-September & don't participate in the postseason and you think they'd jump at D-1.

UMass could be a faint outside shot but stress the word faint.

[bandl]

Could make the move?

From your list, Delaware and JMU. Not so sure about the rest. Long term you could think about the entire CAA being a I-A conference, but that's about it.

You can take JMU off that list. There are already two powerhouse I-A teams in the state of VA, VT 2 hours south and UVA 1 hour southeast. Most Virginians already have their loyalties to one or the other (and definitely not both ;) ). JMU just couldn't compete with that fanbase, nor JMU could compete with that recruiting battle in Virginia. Thankfully UVA's coach is too smug to realize that he has a hotbed of football talent just a couple hours down I-64 east, he recruits more from the northeast states. JMU's stadium is still too small to even consider meeting the I-A attendance requirements. It would take years to build a stadium large enough. In fact, it would probably require a whole new location somewhere (probably off campus), as Bridgeforth Stadium is already getting too big for its location as it is. And besides...what conference would JMU play in?? The ACC? The Big East? Please. : smh :

[Lehigh Football Nation]

I think Rutgers, Army, and Navy have a real shot too.

:D

Not Temple or Buffalo, though.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The serious answer is: I don't think any of these schools, including Delaware, could make the jump realistically. There is the problem of which conference would you go to (the MAC?). There's the problem of facilities, and I-A competition (Va, Va Tech, Penn State, to a lesser extent Army and Navy), but the biggest bugaboo is that it's hard to picture any of these athletic departments outlaying the money necessary to make this happen. I think all these schools play cost-containment ball and are happy doing so.

[dbackjon]

You forgot Liberty ;)

[bluehenbillk]

The serious answer is: I don't think any of these schools, including Delaware, could make the jump realistically. There is the problem of which conference would you go to (the MAC?). There's the problem of facilities, and I-A competition (Va, Va Tech, Penn State, to a lesser extent Army and Navy), but the biggest bugaboo is that it's hard to picture any of these athletic departments outlaying the money necessary to make this happen. I think all these schools play cost-containment ball and are happy doing so.

Statement is pretty much right on. Speaking for UD, unless the Big East comes calling it's not happening.

[rufus]

The biggest bugaboo is that it's hard to picture any of these athletic departments outlaying the money necessary to make this happen. I think all these schools play cost-containment ball and are happy doing so.
JMU's admin has made it pretty clear on multiple occasions that they are not happy playing cost containment football in the long run. While costs are definitely a concern, as they are at any university, JMU already has the largest athletic budget in the CAA and sponsors more sports than anyone else in the CAA. Those resources could definitely be reallocated to I-A football if necessary.


JMU's stadium is still too small to even consider meeting the I-A attendance requirements. It would take years to build a stadium large enough. In fact, it would probably require a whole new location somewhere (probably off campus), as Bridgeforth Stadium is already getting too big for its location as it is.
About 5-6 years ago, JMU did a study to determine whether to expand Bridgeforth or build a new stadium. It was found that Bridgeforth could be expanded to 40-45k seats, so the plans to build a new stadium were scrapped. Sure 40-45k probably wouldn't be big enough for I-A in the long run, but it would at least get us through the early years.

The biggest thing holding JMU back is the incompetency of its administration. They have the desire to expand the stadium and go I-A, but they have no idea how to implement a plan. In fact, it's pretty clear that their incompetence extends across all sports. Just look at our basketball team. : smh :

[*****]

The choice is really playoffs or a bowl. Which school would choose a bowl over playoffs?

[rufus]

The choice is really playoffs or a bowl. Which school would choose a bowl over playoffs?

Apparently around 119 schools. :)

[WMTribe90]

From my understanding the biggest obstacle to JMU going to IA is money. There athletic budget is funded largely by student fees. Luckily they have a large student body for IAA. Moving to IA will require substantially more capitol than the already high student fees can cover. Unless JMU was invited to a BCS conference (not going to happen) I think IA football is a real financial liability to the university.

Bandl is also right that JMU will always be third in VA behind UVA and VT. Given JMU's rural locale and competition with VT and UVA I don't see JMU drawing more than 20,000/game even if they went IA.

Delaware would be the most capable of making the move, but they seem perfectly happy in the current situation and I don't blame them unless the Big East comes knocking.

[*****]

Apparently around 119 schools. :)Apparently 120+ choose playoffs. :nod:

[rufus]

Apparently 120+ choose playoffs. :nod:

Those 120+ don't choose bowls, but they don't all choose playoffs either.

Ivy: no playoffs
SWAC: usually no playoffs
Non-scholarship/Low-scholarship: no playoffs

[rufus]

From my understanding the biggest obstacle to JMU going to IA is money. There athletic budget is funded largely by student fees. Luckily they have a large student body for IAA. Moving to IA will require substantially more capitol than the already high student fees can cover. Unless JMU was invited to a BCS conference (not going to happen) I think IA football is a real financial liability to the university.

Bandl is also right that JMU will always be third in VA behind UVA and VT. Given JMU's rural locale and competition with VT and UVA I don't see JMU drawing more than 20,000/game even if they went IA.

Delaware would be the most capable of making the move, but they seem perfectly happy in the current situation and I don't blame them unless the Big East comes knocking.
If JMU continues to grow at its current rate, it will have well over 25,000 students in ten years. The cost of non-BCS I-A is typically only a couple million a year more than the top of I-AA, so the increased student fee revenue alone would cover the increased costs. Maybe I-A football at JMU will take off, maybe it will crash and burn. I guess we may find out one day.

As far as the 20k attendance estimate -- it looks absurd when you consider that we can attract 15k+ to games against the likes of Lock Haven. And the rural location comment? I guess you've never been to Blacksburg or Charlottesville.

I appreciate your concern for JMU, but we'll be just fine.

[*****]

Those 120+ don't choose bowls, but they don't all choose playoffs either...All are eligible for playoffs, this is I-AA. Not all I-A gets their meaningless bowl either.

[rufus]

Define "elligible". The NCAA may permit Ivies to compete in the playoffs, but their conference does not. There is absolutely no chance of an Ivy League team making the playoffs.

Technically, I-AAs are elligible for bowls too. They just have to beat 6 I-A teams in a season. It's not going to happen, but it's just as likely as an Ivy making the playoffs.

[bandl]

JMU's admin has made it pretty clear on multiple occasions that they are not happy playing cost containment football in the long run. While costs are definitely a concern, as they are at any university, JMU already has the largest athletic budget in the CAA and sponsors more sports than anyone else in the CAA. Those resources could definitely be reallocated to I-A football if necessary.


About 5-6 years ago, JMU did a study to determine whether to expand Bridgeforth or build a new stadium. It was found that Bridgeforth could be expanded to 40-45k seats, so the plans to build a new stadium were scrapped. Sure 40-45k probably wouldn't be big enough for I-A in the long run, but it would at least get us through the early years.

The biggest thing holding JMU back is the incompetency of its administration. They have the desire to expand the stadium and go I-A, but they have no idea how to implement a plan. In fact, it's pretty clear that their incompetence extends across all sports. Just look at our basketball team. : smh :
I'd love to see that study...I can't see how they would build a large enough stadium UNLESS they tour down....crap, I forgot the name of that big old building behind it, I haven't been back to JMU in a while....anyways, tear that down & expand seats in the end zone up the hill. It would be a project, that's for sure.

[MplsBison]

If UConn could do it, UMass could do it.

[colgate13]

The question was could people, not would or should.

IMO, I throw out UD and JMU because they are large state institutions that have experienced success recently in I-AA. It would take the right opportunity and some serious $$$, but they could do it.

Nova? No way in H.
Ivies? They have money, but they 'couldn't' because of administrative/faculty issues.
UMass? Yes, UConn did it - with a free pass to the Big East and taxpayer funding. I don't see that happening in Taxachusetts anytime soon.
Lehigh? Less come back to earth a little now Mountain Hawks, shall we? Money, attendance (good for the PL, not for I-A), academic hurdles (unless you want to throw those out the window for football players like Notre Dame); you've got plenty of hurdles that make it a 'couldn't'.

[th0m]

I'd love to see that study...I can't see how they would build a large enough stadium UNLESS they tour down....crap, I forgot the name of that big old building behind it, I haven't been back to JMU in a while....anyways, tear that down & expand seats in the end zone up the hill. It would be a project, that's for sure.

Godwin Hall. I think it is possible at the current location though. Seems kind of weird to first build the APC at its current location only to move the stadium elsewhere.

[JMU2004]

1-A has been the goal for JMU for some time now......but we will only move if the timing/situation is correct.

We are currently in the process of expanding the stadium to 20-25k....with an ultimate plan to expand to 40,000.

The college athletic landscape is due for a big change....JMU just wants to thave the oppurtunity to take advantage of it

That being said, we are more than a decade away from even thinking about 1-A

[*****]

Define "elligible". The NCAA may permit Ivies to compete in the playoffs, but their conference does not. There is absolutely no chance of an Ivy League team making the playoffs. Technically, I-AAs are elligible for bowls too. They just have to beat 6 I-A teams in a season. It's not going to happen, but it's just as likely as an Ivy making the playoffs."Eligible" means just that. If they want to they can compete. BTW, you can't be in the playoffs and a bowl in the same year.

[carney2]

The playoff vs. bowl championship designations will probably change things in the long run but, for now, here are some comments on the list:

Delaware Would require them to become a "small fish." Unacceptable to the faithful.

UMass Why not? UConn did it.

Villanova Been there; done that; aint doin' it again.

Lehigh A private institution with 4,500 undergraduate students? What are you smoking? This isn't Notre Dame.

JMU Zanier things have happened - but not recently. Others have made the case here, but this would be a classic case of vast ideas with half vast resources.

Penn, Harvard, Princeton, Yale They turned their backs on all of that "big time football" stuff 50 years ago. No one can make a rational case for any of them returning - and cashing in their chips at the big bucks ivory tower that they've erected.

The landscape is apparently dotted with I-A wannabes, but you won't find as many of those dots in the northeast as in some other regions.

[Go...gate]

Delaware, JMU and UMass.

[TheValleyRaider]

UMass Why not? UConn did it.

It's been said already in this thread, but you can't compare UMass and UConn.

UConn had:
-a legislature with money to burn on its flagship institution,
-a national powerhouse of a basketball program also rolling in the dough as well as giving the school a national name,
-an open invitation to a BCS Conference, the Big East.

Of these, UMass has:
-not only a legislature not willing to give them the money, but they're also not even considered #1 in the state. They reside squarely behind BC in the hearts and minds of the MA govt. (at least I've gotten that impression from the UMass posters here),
-a decent, slightly above mid-major level basketball program that's had one year of real note (their Final Four trip in 96), but nothing really resembling a national following,
-and are all sport members of the Atlantic-10, which is in its final year of sponsoring football.

Unless these things change, UMass will remain I-AA for the forseeable future.

[blukeys]

From my understanding the biggest obstacle to JMU going to IA is money. There athletic budget is funded largely by student fees. Luckily they have a large student body for IAA. Moving to IA will require substantially more capitol than the already high student fees can cover. Unless JMU was invited to a BCS conference (not going to happen) I think IA football is a real financial liability to the university.

Bandl is also right that JMU will always be third in VA behind UVA and VT. Given JMU's rural locale and competition with VT and UVA I don't see JMU drawing more than 20,000/game even if they went IA.

Delaware would be the most capable of making the move, but they seem perfectly happy in the current situation and I don't blame them unless the Big East comes knocking.

Agreed and if the ACC ever came knocking the administration would move mountains and get the old Dupont money to back such a move.

Keep in mind the local example of the Temple debacle, the Rutgers overreach and the Buffalo fiasco are in the Mid Atlantic area and examples of how not to go I-A. Delaware is very close geographically to failed I-A schools and would choose to avoid their model.

There is a difference between being UL - Monroe and being LSU. Delaware fans would never accept being the former. I give the administration credit for seeing this. Nonetheless a determined effort could get Delaware to that level with the right incentives (i.e. the right conference affiliations)

Since UD makes money at football it would be a gamble to see how they would do at the next level. Umass and some other schools are losing money at football and are in a better position to roll the dice and see what happens. The only person of influence who was 100% opposed to I-A football at UD was Dave Nelson and he has been gone for some time. :nod:

[blukeys]

The question was could people, not would or should.

IMO, I throw out UD and JMU because they are large state institutions that have experienced success recently in I-AA. It would take the right opportunity and some serious $$$, but they could do it.

Nova? No way in H.
Ivies? They have money, but they 'couldn't' because of administrative/faculty issues.
UMass? Yes, UConn did it - with a free pass to the Big East and taxpayer funding. I don't see that happening in Taxachusetts anytime soon.
Lehigh? Less come back to earth a little now Mountain Hawks, shall we? Money, attendance (good for the PL, not for I-A), academic hurdles (unless you want to throw those out the window for football players like Notre Dame); you've got plenty of hurdles that make it a 'couldn't'.

I agree.

The taxpayers in Conn. approved the expenditure of 40 million plus so that they could get the Patriots to relocate to Connecticut. After the funding was approved the Pats negotiated a better deal with the folks in Foxboro leaving Connecticut with a stadium with no pro team. Enter the Huskies. UConn also got first choice into the Big East since they were a charter member. I know of no one who thinks the taxpayers of Taxachusetts will submit to more money going to build a $40.000.000 stadium for Amherst.

Delaware does have the resources, so far untapped, to make a move and in the end they may depending on what happens in I-A and I-AA. The UD president Roselle is retiring and if he were still around I would say he would make any move with JMU and W&M.

Short of a Big East or ACC invite, UD would consider a I-A conference with the VA schools and Army and Navy and other schools that could round out the conference.

So far this is not on the horizon.

[mainejeff]

JMU.

[GannonFan]

IMO, I throw out UD ... they are large state institutions .

Just a clarification - UD is not technically a state institution - they are a quasi-private school that receives a fair amount of state money, but is also heavily financed through private channels and is controlled by a Board of Trustees, not the state legislature. If there was a category between public state school and private that's where UD would be.

[Pard4Life]

Lehigh in I-A... :flagged:

um, no way... you are small... there was an uproar over Joe Knight.. you think Lehigh could pull the same thing off, with 70 academic ignoramiouses?

I could see Delaware in I-A.. they have a large school, they get alot of attendence as it is.. plus, if they went I-A, they would be the probably be the draw in the entire Philadelphia region and South Jersey... if they are successful.. Temple is a mess, so Philadelphia needs an I-A.

[colgate13]

Just a clarification - UD is not technically a state institution - they are a quasi-private school that receives a fair amount of state money, but is also heavily financed through private channels and is controlled by a Board of Trustees, not the state legislature. If there was a category between public state school and private that's where UD would be.

The most important part about UD's status is not if they are private/public/quasi-whatever. They are THE state institution (ok, there is Delaware State too, but let's leave that alone in this thread). That's what counts.

Being THE state institution gives the school a level of local/regional prominence that a place like, say Lehigh, doesn't enjoy. UConn and CCSU are both Connecticut state schools, but UConn is THE state institution. That's my point.:twocents:

[GannonFan]

The most important part about UD's status is not if they are private/public/quasi-whatever. They are THE state institution (ok, there is Delaware State too, but let's leave that alone in this thread). That's what counts.

Being THE state institution gives the school a level of local/regional prominence that a place like, say Lehigh, doesn't enjoy. UConn and CCSU are both Connecticut state schools, but UConn is THE state institution. That's my point.:twocents:

Well, considering that Delaware is one of those states that most Americans still have trouble recognizing as a state (I've had people from places like Indiana ask if Delaware is somewhere in Pennsylvania - and there was a Friends episode where Ross could only name 49 states (Joey beat him with 56) and the one he missed was Delaware) I'd say that prominence isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure it's more than what a Lehigh has, but let's keep it in perspective - Delaware's still a real tiny state.

[colgate13]

Well, considering that Delaware is one of those states that most Americans still have trouble recognizing as a state (I've had people from places like Indiana ask if Delaware is somewhere in Pennsylvania - and there was a Friends episode where Ross could only name 49 states (Joey beat him with 56) and the one he missed was Delaware) I'd say that prominence isn't all it's cracked up to be. Sure it's more than what a Lehigh has, but let's keep it in perspective - Delaware's still a real tiny state.

And that, IMHO, is why you are I-AA. But if anyone could go I-A, you've got as good a shot as any.

[Maverick]

Go to umasshoops.com and click on the football forum. There is a thread about I-A football and UMass. From what I've read, UMass doesn't seem as if it is anywhere near being able to move up.

[blur2005]

If JMU continues to grow at its current rate, it will have well over 25,000 students in ten years.
I don't think JMU will be able to continue growing at its current rate because there just isn't anywhere else to go, as JMU is pretty close to running out of space to grow. Unless it chooses to ruin a pretty campus by tearing down dorms to build taller ones, which is doubtful, I can't see the administration allowing too many more students in per class.

[WMTribe90]

If JMU continues to grow at its current rate, it will have well over 25,000 students in ten years. The cost of non-BCS I-A is typically only a couple million a year more than the top of I-AA, so the increased student fee revenue alone would cover the increased costs. Maybe I-A football at JMU will take off, maybe it will crash and burn. I guess we may find out one day.

As far as the 20k attendance estimate -- it looks absurd when you consider that we can attract 15k+ to games against the likes of Lock Haven. And the rural location comment? I guess you've never been to Blacksburg or Charlottesville.

I appreciate your concern for JMU, but we'll be just fine.

Rufus,

I'm sorry that you mistook my interest in all things related to IAA as genuine concern for JMU. I honestly don't care what JMU does, but decided to voice my opinion all the same.

My estimate of 20,000 for JMU comes from the fact that JMU will not pull fans away from UVA and VT when they are both in the ACC. There is also precedent. Marshall and Middle Tenn have both seen their attendance decline in recent years. After the novelty of beingIA wears off fans stop coming unless the team has success on the field. Winning puts butts in the seats and .500 seasons in a non-BCS conference isn't going to cut it. JMU could draw 40,000 fans to its rural location like VT and UVA if it were playing in the ACC, but that's not going to happen. I don't see more than 20,000 showing up to see JMU play Troy St when UVA and VT are both playing ACC opponents just an hour or two away in either direction.

[colgate13]

I don't think JMU will be able to continue growing at its current rate because there just isn't anywhere else to go, as JMU is pretty close to running out of space to grow.

The number of high school seniors entering college will start dropping too, right around 2012 I believe. It will be very interesting to watch higher education deal with less students per year when many schools have gotten fat (or more likely extended themselves in ways they can't support without tuition revenue) over the past 20 years or so.

Call it a 'higher education' recession or whatever, but something is looming on the horizon. :twocents:

[henfan]

Delaware and Delaware State both consider themselves quasi-private, however, they are as public in their missions as as any publicly-sponsored institution in the US. They take just as much money from state taxpayers as public institutions do in other states. They are publicly funded but, due to the assbackward laws of Delaware, do not have to open their books to public scrutiny and are exempt from state FOI regs. Employees at both institutions are included in the State of Delaware employee benefit program. The governor is a de facto trustee on the boards of both schools. Both are Land Grant institutions. If they aren't public in every sense of the word, I don't know what is.

In any case, the UD does not have a I-A FB program because the school just isn't interested in participating in major college athletics in any regard. They certainly have the money, location, and population and alumn bases to sponsor I-A football. (BTW, support for UD athletics isn't limited to the state's border, as evidence by the tens of thousands of living alums located in nearby counties of neighboring states.) There are no major college conferences interested in UD or vice versa. That's fine with a majority of UD fans.

[DFW HOYA]

By most definitions UD is a publicly funded institution, and a number of publicly funded schools have an independent board of trustees.

The school where there's a real dichotomy is Cornell--while largely assumed as a private Ivy, it is also the official land grant institution for the State of New York and is actually affiliated with the SUNY schools in some programs.

http://www.cornell.edu/about/facts/faq_profile.cfm?id=918

[colgate13]

The school where there's a real dichotomy is Cornell--while largely assumed as a private Ivy, it is also the official land grant institution for the State of New York and is actually affiliated with the SUNY schools in some programs.

http://www.cornell.edu/about/facts/faq_profile.cfm?id=918

Hence the hockey taunt.... SUNY Ithaca.... SUNY Ithaca.... SUNY Ithaca...

That just boils those Ivy types to pieces! :D

[Tribefan]

IMO the program most likely to jump from I-A to I-AA is Villanova. And I think that jump is unlikely.

But for argument's sake, I'll throw these ideas on the wall:

-The Presidents of the member institutions of The Big East conference decide to split with lines being the football schools and the Catholic Schools.

-Villanova is faced with the reality of no longer playing hoops with UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Cinci etc., decides that its new league with Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns etc. will essentially become the A-10 II and be relegated to mid-major status.

- The new football conference votes to let Villanova come along if they move up. This makes sense because the new conference could use another Bballl powerhouse considering that in a few years they will have to negotiate hoops TV contract. Villanova then in an effort to protect their basketball program decides to make the jump to I-A, so that it can continue playing with the best teams possible in basketball. A new MLS stadium built in Philly offers them a sweet deal for its home games and the rest is history...

[GannonFan]

IMO the program most likely to jump from I-A to I-AA is Villanova. And I think that jump is unlikely.

But for argument's sake, I'll throw these ideas on the wall:

-The Presidents of the member institutions of The Big East conference decide to split with lines being the football schools and the Catholic Schools.

-Villanova is faced with the reality of no longer playing hoops with UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Cinci etc., decides that its new league with Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns etc. will essentially become the A-10 II and be relegated to mid-major status.

- The new football conference votes to let Villanova come along if they move up. This makes sense because the new conference could use another Bballl powerhouse considering that in a few years they will have to negotiate hoops TV contract. Villanova then in an effort to protect their basketball program decides to make the jump to I-A, so that it can continue playing with the best teams possible in basketball. A new MLS stadium built in Philly offers them a sweet deal for its home games and the rest is history...

Just a note on that - a new MLS stadium is being built for the Philly area for a team from Philly to be in the MLS, however, that stadium is already planned to be built shortly over near the Rowan campus in Southern New Jersey. I doubt they will build two MLS stadiums just to accomodate nova football.

If nova moves up, the Linc is the only real true option they will initially have. Maybe if they are successful they could eventually build a stadium closer to campus, but I don't think that will fly on any initial move up in the next couple of years.

[dbackjon]

IMO the program most likely to jump from I-A to I-AA is Villanova. And I think that jump is unlikely.

But for argument's sake, I'll throw these ideas on the wall:

-The Presidents of the member institutions of The Big East conference decide to split with lines being the football schools and the Catholic Schools.

-Villanova is faced with the reality of no longer playing hoops with UConn, Syracuse, Louisville, Cinci etc., decides that its new league with Providence, Seton Hall, St. Johns etc. will essentially become the A-10 II and be relegated to mid-major status.

- The new football conference votes to let Villanova come along if they move up. This makes sense because the new conference could use another Bballl powerhouse considering that in a few years they will have to negotiate hoops TV contract. Villanova then in an effort to protect their basketball program decides to make the jump to I-A, so that it can continue playing with the best teams possible in basketball. A new MLS stadium built in Philly offers them a sweet deal for its home games and the rest is history...

Interesting conjecture. I believe the Big East is doomed to split, and could have some ripple effects on I-AA (or PCG).

[89Hen]

but let's keep it in perspective - Delaware's still a real tiny state.
:nod: :nod: I've said it before when talking about the size of Delaware... my county in Maryland has more people than the state of Delaware.

Delaware - 783,600 in 2489 sq.miles
Montgomery County - 921,690 in 496 sq miles

By all rights my county's community college should be I-A before the Hens. :p

[JMU2K_DukeDawg]

From my understanding the biggest obstacle to JMU going to IA is money. There athletic budget is funded largely by student fees. Luckily they have a large student body for IAA. Moving to IA will require substantially more capitol than the already high student fees can cover. Unless JMU was invited to a BCS conference (not going to happen) I think IA football is a real financial liability to the university.

Bandl is also right that JMU will always be third in VA behind UVA and VT. Given JMU's rural locale and competition with VT and UVA I don't see JMU drawing more than 20,000/game even if they went IA.

Delaware would be the most capable of making the move, but they seem perfectly happy in the current situation and I don't blame them unless the Big East comes knocking.

There was a time not too long ago when Virginia Tech was a joke. Same case could be made for UVA. Without Frank Beamer and Michael Vick, Tech would be just an average I-A program at best. UVA is average in spite of excellent recruits year in, year out.

It comes down to the vision of an administration and having the pieces together for long-term growth, including career coaches. Richmond used to be I-A. With a different vision in place, they may have marketed their team (Richmond is a good market - more fans of UVA and Tech in Richmond than Richmond fans), expanded their stadium, and recruited someone like a Michael Vick from the Tidewater region. Reality is they want to stay smart, perhaps in more ways than one...

JMU could and UD could move to I-A. I don't see it happening though, mostly due to CAA loyalties. It's a basketball conference, especially after GMU got to the Final 4 this year, and now there may be added incentives to stay with the conference for a long time. Best bet is for the entire conference to move up to I-A as the CAA. Due to resource limitation at various insitutions, it won't happen IMO.

While I doubt many Spider fans would admit it, I am sure Richmond would rather play with CAA teams more regularly again. Good rivalries and our league in basketball is better than theirs for 2 years in a row now.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Interesting conjecture. I believe the Big East is doomed to split, and could have some ripple effects on I-AA (or PCG).

Every once in a while this comes up, and I come to the same conclusion: With Big East basketball continuing to be so much money, it's highly unlikely that it will split apart anytime soon. 'Nova, Seton Hall, St. John's and Georgetown would *never* kill the golden goose and the national respect that results from the NCAA Tourney.

[blukeys]

JMU could and UD could move to I-A. I don't see it happening though, mostly due to CAA loyalties. It's a basketball conference, especially after GMU got to the Final 4 this year, and now there may be added incentives to stay with the conference for a long time. Best bet is for the entire conference to move up to I-A as the CAA. Due to resource limitation at various insitutions, it won't happen IMO.

While I doubt many Spider fans would admit it, I am sure Richmond would rather play with CAA teams more regularly again. Good rivalries and our league in basketball is better than theirs for 2 years in a row now.


Ironies of Ironies. Yes how many final 4, elite 8 teams did the A-10 produce this year.

[DTSpider]

There was a time not too long ago when Virginia Tech was a joke. Same case could be made for UVA. Without Frank Beamer and Michael Vick, Tech would be just an average I-A program at best. UVA is average in spite of excellent recruits year in, year out.

It comes down to the vision of an administration and having the pieces together for long-term growth, including career coaches. Richmond used to be I-A. With a different vision in place, they may have marketed their team (Richmond is a good market - more fans of UVA and Tech in Richmond than Richmond fans), expanded their stadium, and recruited someone like a Michael Vick from the Tidewater region. Reality is they want to stay smart, perhaps in more ways than one...

JMU could and UD could move to I-A. I don't see it happening though, mostly due to CAA loyalties. It's a basketball conference, especially after GMU got to the Final 4 this year, and now there may be added incentives to stay with the conference for a long time. Best bet is for the entire conference to move up to I-A as the CAA. Due to resource limitation at various insitutions, it won't happen IMO.

While I doubt many Spider fans would admit it, I am sure Richmond would rather play with CAA teams more regularly again. Good rivalries and our league in basketball is better than theirs for 2 years in a row now.

Pretty good post. A more relevant reference is Bruce Smith. VA Tech took that criminal (and many others) and helped propel them up the 1A ladder. Richmond had some great players then, but didn't commit as much to winning at all costs. However, with a school of 3000 students it would be tough to get the 50,000 or 60,000 people to attend the games. Richmond's administration pulled the plug on 1A in spite of an alumni outrage. However, we probably served as an example of a team in the mid-80's that should have been 1AA. Many alumni are still very upset about playing in 1AA.

Times change and I doubt any of the current A10/CAA football schools would be better off in the current 1A structure. JMU could be like Marshall or Temple, but is that any better?

Concerning the current set up, I don't think that you'll find many UR fans who wouldn't want to play more CAA teams in all sports. At least, the alumni who are actually sports fans...

[89Hen]

IMO none of the current I-AA's could make a successful move to I-A because of not having a home. UConn will be the last to do so and they are only successful because of their home in the Big East.

Attendance....
EMU - 5,219 down 9,000 from 2004
Buffalo - 8,914 down 3,300
Troy - 19,425 down 2,000
Idaho - 15,175 down 1,000
LA Tech - 16,416 down 1,000
LA-Monroe - 14,617 stagnant

Instead of talking about teams moving to I-A, we should be talking about teams coming back.

[UNH 40]

UNH doesn't have the facilities or fan base to make the move to I-A however out of all the teams that have been previously named they would be the most competative right now.

[SunCoastBlueHen]

UNH doesn't have the facilities or fan base to make the move to I-A however out of all the teams that have been previously named they would be the most competative right now.

This year? Maybe
Going forward? Highly doubtful

Two good seasons does not a successful program make

[89Hen]

UNH doesn't have the facilities or fan base to make the move to I-A however out of all the teams that have been previously named they would be the most competative right now.
Ahhh, the sounds of another A10 fan who's team has had two good years.

JMU 2004 champs... fail to make the playoffs in 2005.

Maine on the verge of greatness in 2002 after two first round road wins... .500 record since.

Northeastern ready to jump out of the cellar after 2002-03... 2-9 last year.

Richmond you've made it back to the top!... just like you did in 2000... only to have four losing seasons in a row there after.

Villanova riding high on a semifinal appearance... sliding record since.

Villanova #1 and undefeated in 1997... missed playoffs next four years.

UMass NATIONAL CHAMPS BABY!... down to 9 wins, 7 wins, 3 wins...

Hofstra shows no ill effects in joining the A10... one winning season in last four.

Those that chose to ignore history are destined to repeat it.

[UNH 40]

Talent wise this coming season UNH would have a better shot against I-A opponents, than any team in the northeast.

[UNH 40]

This year? Maybe
Going forward? Highly doubtful

Two good seasons does not a successful program make


UNH has a talented group of good young athletes that will be able to keep this team among the best in the A-10 for years to come. All does not come to an end with the departure of David Ball, and you may be forgetting that Santos has 2 more seasons remaining at the helm. The past two season Coach Mac has see his recruiting pay off big time. As long as he is leading this team they will be very competative.

[89Hen]

UNH has a talented group of good young athletes that will be able to keep this team among the best in the A-10 for years to come.
Wow, this is eerie. Are you sure you're not a Maine, UMass or JMU fan in disguise?

[colgate13]

Wow, this is eerie. Are you sure you're not a Maine, UMass or JMU fan in disguise?

I'm thinking the same thing... :nod:

[DTSpider]

Richmond you've made it back to the top!... just like you did in 2000... only to have four losing seasons in a row there after.


Thanks for the reminder :bawling:

We're hoping that since we haven't cut scholarships again that we'll be able to hold our own. We did have two out of 3 with the 1998 team as well. We're all very happy down here with our performance and optimistic about the future. However, you won't find many of us betting our houses on a repeat performance. We all know how tough it is in the A10. I'd argue that our 2001 team was better than the 2000 team to start the year. However, injuries, turnovers, inches, etc. make the difference between a 8-3 year and a 4-7 year.

[bandl]

Wow, this is eerie. Are you sure you're not a Maine, UMass or JMU fan in disguise?
or a UD fan... :rolleyes:

[89Hen]

or a UD fan... :rolleyes:
Delaware fans always err on the side of pessimism, just like any good sandbagger does. :p You'll never hear Hen fans proclaim that they will be "among the best in the A-10 for years to come"... This is almost verbatim of what some JMU fans said after 2004... with the NC, the new facilities, our fanbase.... JMU will be "among the best in the A-10 for years to come". Same thing the Maine fans said, same thing eveyone has said as far back as I can remember. Maybe JMU or UNH will stay at the top for years, but history has shown that all the A10 teams have been up and down and up and down.

[UNH 40]

Wow, this is eerie. Are you sure you're not a Maine, UMass or JMU fan in disguise?

I guess UD will find out on September 30th, how good some of the young players will elevate the already high level of play at UNH. This team is not just about Santos and Ball there are more options.

[GannonFan]

I guess UD will find out on September 30th, how good some of the young players will elevate the already high level of play at UNH. This team is not just about Santos and Ball there are more options.

Let's get some perspective here - without Santos and Ball UNH would finish in the middle of the pack of the A10/CAA - not a knock, just a reflection of the significance of those two guys.

[89Hen]

This team is not just about Santos and Ball there are more options.

Passing yards - 3901
Rushing yards - 2520
Total yards - 6421
Santo rushing yards - 505

So that's 505 + 3901 = 4,406 or 69% of the offense. Thats a fairly significant number IMO.

Ball receiving yards - 1551 (40% of total). I think there were only two other receivers in the A10 who were over 30% of their team's total (Maine and Northeastern had one).

You guys may come into to Newark and beat the crap out of the Hens, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the Santos/Ball show and that UNH's future success is just as questionable as anyone who's been there before in the A10.

[DB_Atlantic10]

Ahhh, the sounds of another A10 fan who's team has had two good years.

JMU 2004 champs... fail to make the playoffs in 2005.

Maine on the verge of greatness in 2002 after two first round road wins... .500 record since.

Northeastern ready to jump out of the cellar after 2002-03... 2-9 last year.

Richmond you've made it back to the top!... just like you did in 2000... only to have four losing seasons in a row there after.

Villanova riding high on a semifinal appearance... sliding record since.

Villanova #1 and undefeated in 1997... missed playoffs next four years.

UMass NATIONAL CHAMPS BABY!... down to 9 wins, 7 wins, 3 wins...

Hofstra shows no ill effects in joining the A10... one winning season in last four.

Those that chose to ignore history are destined to repeat it.


There's always a pessimist in the crowd....

[UNH_Alum_In_CT]

Don't be too tough on my buddy UNH40, he's just a pup! xlolx And he still has close ties with the team. It gives me another glimpse at how good a motivator Sean McDonnell really is.

Any of us grizzled veterans know how difficult it is to win consistently in the A-10. Even during a couple of UNH's 4-7 or 3-8 seasons, it was easy to see how a couple of plays in a couple of games was the difference between 7-4, 6-5 or 5-6 seasons. Just a very small margin between tiers within the A-10!! And while not trying to rile up Uncle Buck, just look at Hofstra the past two seasons and that small margin!!

Somewhere along the way I read something about if UNH made the playoffs this coming season that it would be the first time ANY A-10 team has made the playoffs three years in a row since Delaware achieved it almost a decade ago!! That is the reality that 89Hen was describing! :nod: :nod:

Over the winter I finally watched a tape of the UNH-UMass game (which I didn't attend). The Santos-Ball combo made a couple of absolutely amazing plays that won the game. I don't think UNH wins that game without their incredible play. At the same time, I'm reading into UNH40's posts to see that hopefully the overall talent/skill levels have improved since the pre-Santos/Ball days. That hopefully will keep UNH from free falling back to the lower tier of the A-10. Only time will tell if UNH can alter history and remain in the upper tier for an extended time.

[blukeys]

Don't be too tough on my buddy UNH40, he's just a pup! xlolx And he still has close ties with the team. It gives me another glimpse at how good a motivator Sean McDonnell really is.

Any of us grizzled veterans know how difficult it is to win consistently in the A-10. Even during a couple of UNH's 4-7 or 3-8 seasons, it was easy to see how a couple of plays in a couple of games was the difference between 7-4, 6-5 or 5-6 seasons. Just a very small margin between tiers within the A-10!! And while not trying to rile up Uncle Buck, just look at Hofstra the past two seasons and that small margin!!

Somewhere along the way I read something about if UNH made the playoffs this coming season that it would be the first time ANY A-10 team has made the playoffs three years in a row since Delaware achieved it almost a decade ago!! That is the reality that 89Hen was describing! :nod: :nod:

Over the winter I finally watched a tape of the UNH-UMass game (which I didn't attend). The Santos-Ball combo made a couple of absolutely amazing plays that won the game. I don't think UNH wins that game without their incredible play. At the same time, I'm reading into UNH40's posts to see that hopefully the overall talent/skill levels have improved since the pre-Santos/Ball days. That hopefully will keep UNH from free falling back to the lower tier of the A-10. Only time will tell if UNH can alter history and remain in the upper tier for an extended time.


Ditto from another old grizzled veteran!!!!:D :D

[89Hen]

That hopefully will keep UNH from free falling back to the lower tier of the A-10.
I don't really consider UNH to have been in the lower tier. The only teams that may have consistent claim to that is URI and NU. Maine, UR and even JMU had small stints at the bottom since 1993 (when JMU and W&M joined the conference) too.

[UNH 40]

Passing yards - 3901
Rushing yards - 2520
Total yards - 6421
Santo rushing yards - 505

So that's 505 + 3901 = 4,406 or 69% of the offense. Thats a fairly significant number IMO.

Ball receiving yards - 1551 (40% of total). I think there were only two other receivers in the A10 who were over 30% of their team's total (Maine and Northeastern had one).

You guys may come into to Newark and beat the crap out of the Hens, but that doesn't change the fact that it's the Santos/Ball show and that UNH's future success is just as questionable as anyone who's been there before in the A10.

I realize that UNH's future is just as questionable as everyone elses in the A-10.

Remove Omar Cuff from last seasons team and this coming season and UD is the middle of the pack, without transfers Andy Hall and Shawn Johnson there is not way you win a title. This discussion can go around in a circle forever. The fact of the matter is we DO have David Ball and Ricky Santos, and yes it just happens that they are the two best players in the Country. Thanks to great talent scouting by UNH staff. I never said that they are going to rule for years to come, I simply stated that they would be best equiped to enter I-A now than any other team in the northeast and yes a big part of that is because of Ball and Santos.

[89Hen]

Remove Omar Cuff from last seasons team and this coming season and UD is the middle of the pack...

I never said that they are going to rule for years to come
"UNH has a talented group of good young athletes that will be able to keep this team among the best in the A-10 for years to come."

BTW, UD was middle of the pack last year. :p

[UNH 40]

"UNH has a talented group of good young athletes that will be able to keep this team among the best in the A-10 for years to come."

BTW, UD was middle of the pack last year. :p


Right among the best. Not the best. Among the best. That means in the top half of the league. A team comparable to UD last season not #1 in the country with a 10-1 record, I realize that that will never be a yearly happening the conference is too good.

[89Hen]

Right among the best. Not the best. Among the best. That means in the top half of the league. A team comparable to UD last season
UD was 3-5 and tied for sixth, with only three teams having worse records (all three were 2-6). If that's what you're saying UNH will be going forward, I can agree with that. When I hear among the best for years to come to me that means top three in the conference. Not below .500 and missing the cellar by one win.