Playoff expansion sooner rather than later?

[clenz]

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/odu-president-group-exploring-football-playoff-expansion

Old Dominion University president John Broderick said he is all for expanding the Football Championship Subdivision tournament field from 20 teams to 24, if it is for the right reasons.

Broderick will reconvene today with a four-member committee of university presidents tasked with exploring expanding the field.

And after watching his own school's team advance to the second round of the playoffs last month, Broderick is motivated by the idea of improving the system.

"If expanding the field enhances the tournament, then I'm for it," Broderick said. "But it has to make sense. We don't want to add teams to the tournament just for the sake of adding teams."

In ODU's third year of football, it was selected as an at-large participant in this season's tournament.

The Monarchs defeated crosstown opponent Norfolk State 35-18 in front of a sellout crowd at Foreman Field, then lost in the second round at third-seeded Georgia Southern.

Broderick is serving the committee with Weber State's F. Ann Millner, Coastal Carolina's David A. DeCenzo and committee chair Bill Meehan of Jacksonville State that has been tasked with exploring the expansion issue.

Sam Houston State and North Dakota State will meet Saturday in Frisco, Texas, in the FCS title game.

Broderick's task force will meet in Frisco today. On Friday, presidents and athletic directors will arrive for the FCS Summit.

Members of the NCAA and television executives are expected to be on hand as well.

In June, Broderick joined the NCAA Presidential Advisory Group and he will join the NCAA's board of directors in April.

As for the potential expansion of the FCS playoff field, Broderick said the tournament needs to "create excitement."

"I was right there with our own team for our two playoff games and I can tell you it was very entertaining," Broderick said. "That entertainment needs to translate to the television audience.

"...With television, it's simple: If TV thinks it has an entertaining product, it will show it. We have to do a better job of packaging and positioning this tournament."

[putter]

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/odu-president-group-exploring-football-playoff-expansion

Old Dominion University president John Broderick said he is all for expanding the Football Championship Subdivision tournament field from 20 teams to 24, if it is for the right reasons.

Broderick will reconvene today with a four-member committee of university presidents tasked with exploring expanding the field.

And after watching his own school's team advance to the second round of the playoffs last month, Broderick is motivated by the idea of improving the system.

"If expanding the field enhances the tournament, then I'm for it," Broderick said. "But it has to make sense. We don't want to add teams to the tournament just for the sake of adding teams."

In ODU's third year of football, it was selected as an at-large participant in this season's tournament.

The Monarchs defeated crosstown opponent Norfolk State 35-18 in front of a sellout crowd at Foreman Field, then lost in the second round at third-seeded Georgia Southern.

Broderick is serving the committee with Weber State's F. Ann Millner, Coastal Carolina's David A. DeCenzo and committee chair Bill Meehan of Jacksonville State that has been tasked with exploring the expansion issue.

Sam Houston State and North Dakota State will meet Saturday in Frisco, Texas, in the FCS title game.

Broderick's task force will meet in Frisco today. On Friday, presidents and athletic directors will arrive for the FCS Summit.

Members of the NCAA and television executives are expected to be on hand as well.

In June, Broderick joined the NCAA Presidential Advisory Group and he will join the NCAA's board of directors in April.

As for the potential expansion of the FCS playoff field, Broderick said the tournament needs to "create excitement."

"I was right there with our own team for our two playoff games and I can tell you it was very entertaining," Broderick said. "That entertainment needs to translate to the television audience.

"...With television, it's simple: If TV thinks it has an entertaining product, it will show it. We have to do a better job of packaging and positioning this tournament."

ESPN touted the bowel game on Saturday for SMU.....and mentioned nothing about the FCS title game. IF ESPN is not even smart enough to advertise for one of it's own broadcasts how can the FCS committee do a better job of packaging and positioning?

[Cleets]

The only reason the playoff should expand is if there has been consistently (year after year) a legitimate contender ranked below 20th in the polls
and I just don't see that - in fact I don't really see a contender ranked below 16th

Side Note:
however, it was pointed out to me that this expansion would allow for all 12 of the CAA teams to be given a playoff game every year
and I think that's something we've all been looking forward to



:D

[Lehigh Football Nation]

As for the potential expansion of the FCS playoff field, Broderick said the tournament needs to "create excitement."

"I was right there with our own team for our two playoff games and I can tell you it was very entertaining," Broderick said. "That entertainment needs to translate to the television audience.

"...With television, it's simple: If TV thinks it has an entertaining product, it will show it. We have to do a better job of packaging and positioning this tournament."

I can't say how much I disagree with this. I'm sure I'll revisit this in the future, but it's not about the tournament, it's about the regular season.

Not to mention TVs don't think for themselves.

[T-Dog]

If it does go to a 24-team bracket, then the NCAA might as well seed the top 8 teams. Under bylaws, they only have to see 25% of the bracket. However since 8 teams would get byes and host the 8 first-round winners, it might as well be done.

If it isn't, then a situation could happen when an unseeded team who got a bye could travel to a team that didn't get a bye in the quarter or semi finals.

[Mr. C]

With the NCAA, it is all about the money as far as playoff hosting is concerned.

[Mr. C]

The only reason the playoff should expand is if there has been consistently (year after year) a legitimate contender ranked below 20th in the polls
and I just don't see that - in fact I don't really see a contender ranked below 16th

Side Note:
however, it was pointed out to me that this expansion would allow for all 12 of the CAA teams to be given a playoff game every year
and I think that's something we've all been looking forward to



:D

The major reason given that the field was expanding to 20 teams was to give equal access to the playoffs for the Northeast Conference and the Big South Conference. Considering that the Pioneer Football League has also requested equal access, the NCAA needs to give an automatic bid to the PFL. Fair is fair. Hopefully, there could be some arm-twisting to get the Ivy League involved in the playoffs as well.

I know that might be a pipe dream, but I can always dream.

[ngineer]

I agree that expanding only makes sense if the IL and PFL are going to be involved, too. I think the current format has proven very good this year. I also would hate to see the regular season schedule reduced to accomodate.
Pennsylvania never had a state championship for its high school programs until just 20 years ago or so. By going to a state playoff system the regular season games in November are all screwed up and many of the traditional Thanksgiving Rivalries have gone away--a real crime to the many local towns for which this was a huge community 'coming together' event. My hometown of Easton, with a great football tradition, has refused to do away with its 100 year+ Thanksgiving game with Philipsburg, NJ, but that has caused the team to play 3 games in 8 days due to the playoffs, which is an unfair burden placed on the kids. And for what? We lived quite will for 100 years with having a 'state champion'. In the final analysis, it's all about the money. To hell with community traditions, time demands placed on students, interference with winter sports. As Oscar Wilde said, "A cynic knows the price of everything, and the value of nothing."

[danefan]

Creating excitement......case in point is the Albany at Stony Brook game this year.

Two teams everyone argued against getting an AQ.

[MplsBison]

The major reason given that the field was expanding to 20 teams was to give equal access to the playoffs for the Northeast Conference and the Big South Conference. Considering that the Pioneer Football League has also requested equal access, the NCAA needs to give an automatic bid to the PFL. Fair is fair. Hopefully, there could be some arm-twisting to get the Ivy League involved in the playoffs as well.

I know that might be a pipe dream, but I can always dream.

No auto-bids to conferences whose teams do not give money to football players solely because they're football players (need based or otherwise).

My foot's down on this one. Four more at-large or nothing.


FCS is DI football, not DIII football.

[MplsBison]

ESPN touted the bowel game on Saturday for SMU.....and mentioned nothing about the FCS title game. IF ESPN is not even smart enough to advertise for one of it's own broadcasts how can the FCS committee do a better job of packaging and positioning?

Yeah, those idiots over at ESPN - always thinking about ratings.

Heck the DIII playoff tournament is 32 teams! You'd think they'd be putting that on ESPN primetime from the quarter finals onward!!

[MplsBison]

True (and proud of it) non-scholarship conferences getting auto-bids to a division I post season tournament.

The championship game (in a 20k seat stadium) on ESPN2 and they put a low-tier bowl game right up against it on ESPN.


I can't wait to move up and out of this division. We'll take the title, thank you very much - then smell ya later.

[superman7515]

I don't care one way or the other if they expand it, it doesn't affect me personally either way. But I do think it's strange that all the articles on this over the last year have been saying it was Old Dominion pushing for it. Considering this is their 3rd year overall, and 1st year eligible for the playoffs, it's kind of like that new guy that gets hired and comes in telling everyone "Oh no, you're doing this whole thing wrong," despite the fact it's been working just fine without them for decades.

[Dane96]

The only reason the playoff should expand is if there has been consistently (year after year) a legitimate contender ranked below 20th in the polls
and I just don't see that - in fact I don't really see a contender ranked below 16th

Side Note:
however, it was pointed out to me that this expansion would allow for all 12 of the CAA teams to be given a playoff game every year
and I think that's something we've all been looking forward to



:D

One year doesn't make it, however one of the only teams that gave SHSU a run so far was Stony Brook...who was 3 seconds away from getting beaten on its own field at home by Albany. Both teams were probably ranked in the 18-20 range by the committee (don't believe that they dont rank the teams privately).

While I agree with you in principle...I think the talent level at the bottom of the playoff pool is getting much better, and is getting better in FCS as whole; this is precisely why you see more 7-4 records.

[MplsBison]

I don't care one way or the other if they expand it, it doesn't affect me personally either way. But I do think it's strange that all the articles on this over the last year have been saying it was Old Dominion pushing for it. Considering this is their 3rd year overall, and 1st year eligible for the playoffs, it's kind of like that new guy that gets hired and comes in telling everyone "Oh no, you're doing this whole thing wrong," despite the fact it's been working just fine without them for decades.

Or maybe the message is "guys, there's a better way that you could've been doing it these past decades - even though the way you're doing it now is OK".

However, that better way is absolutely, positively NOT NOT NOT by giving non-scholarship conferences auto-bids to a division I post season tournament!!! PFL and IL have done nothing to prove that they can compete with the best scholarship teams in this division while stubbornly refusing to provide money to their players -- which they've earned. (you know what I mean, piss off).

[Dane96]

The Ivies give rides...for the umpteenth time.

If you say it enough times, people will listen...

[MplsBison]

The Ivies give rides...for the umpteenth time.

If you say it enough times, people will listen...

False. They give institutional aid to players based on need - just like every student gets.

No Ivy football player gets money that a regular student can't get.


In other words, if the star QB of an Ivy team has parents that make a million a year - he gets jack squat money from the school. He deserves a full athletic scholarship and there's just not a damn thing you can say different.


And you know damn well this is the case. Piss. Off.

[Dane96]

Jack Juice-

1. The Ivies have completely flipped because of something that happened with Tommy Amaker recruiting at Harvard.
2. Some other Ivies have been doing what I stated for years.
3. I was good enough in another sport to be recruited by an Ivy...and I was offered cash even though my parents combined income was well above the level limits that would have allowed me to receive aid if I had been a regular student. This was at Princeton.

That said, go review the new Ivy model for aid...and STFU until you do so.

[Dane96]

And while this change affects all students at Ivies, it was done so not to bring in more students but to allow more competitiveness in the athletic world under the guise of "non-scholarship student athlete." (The Ivies do not seek to increase enrollment...and some, like Harvard, Penn and Yale could indeed have students attend for free for probably around 50 years without blinking a financial eye.)

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.html?pagewanted=all

Irrespective of what is publicly said, Ivies find a way to get people to attend if they want them. Always has been the case...

[BisonBacker]

I'm not in favor of adding to the tourney but thats just my opinion. Obviously though it is all about the Money for the NCAA and there is nothing we or anyone else is going to say or do about it to change that fact.

[professor8315]

The only reason the playoff should expand is if there has been consistently (year after year) a legitimate contender ranked below 20th in the polls
and I just don't see that - in fact I don't really see a contender ranked below 16th

Side Note:
however, it was pointed out to me that this expansion would allow for all 12 of the CAA teams to be given a playoff game every year
and I think that's something we've all been looking forward to



:D
With that mindset let's go back to a 8 team playoff.....

[professor8315]

Playoff expansion is a great ideal. In the lower divisions (D2 has 24 teams playoff and D3 has 32) larger field works. I would like to see that the playoff committee to start the first round two weeks later. This wil allow conferences with 12 or more football members to have a champinionship game.

[RabidRabbit]

No auto-bids to conferences whose teams do not give money to football players solely because they're football players (need based or otherwise).

My foot's down on this one. Four more at-large or nothing.


FCS is DI football, not DIII football.

xlmaoxxlmaoxxlmaox

You drawing a line in the sand for the NCAA to follow? Kudos on a fabulous line!

I'm all set the go out and stop that meteor! xlolxxlolxxlolx

Ivy and SWAC or Pioneer, the more the FCS level teams participate in the play-off system, rather than do their own thang, is an improvement.

[superman7515]

Playoff expansion is a great ideal. In the lower divisions (D2 has 24 teams playoff and D3 has 32) larger field works.

Yes but there are more teams in D2 and D3, so there's actually a larger percentage of FCS teams in the playoffs than in D3 and the same as in D2.
FCS = 126 teams with a 20 team playoff for 16% of teams making the playoffs
D2 = 151 teams with a 24 team playoff for 16% of teams making the playoffs
D3 = 239 teams with a 32 team playoff for 13% of teams making the playoffs

[89Hen]

The fact that the Hens were in the discussion for a playoff spot this year tells you that no expansion is needed.

[uni88]

Playoff expansion is a great ideal. In the lower divisions (D2 has 24 teams playoff and D3 has 32) larger field works. I would like to see that the playoff committee to start the first round two weeks later. This wil allow conferences with 12 or more football members to have a champinionship game.

So you could play an 11 game season, play a conference championship game, make a 24 team playoff without a first round bye and advances to the championship. That's a potential 17 game season. Moving the first round back a week gives everyone 2 weeks between games (and the top 8 teams 3 weeks) and shrinks the time between the semi's and the NC to 2 weeks.

The NCAA isn't going to expand the playoffs for money. There isn't a lot of money in the FCS playoffs, they'll expand them because of the perception of them being unfair to the Pioneer and any other league that wants in. The NCAA worries about money, but they also worry about public opinion.

[asumike83]

It will all come down to what is more profitable for the NCAA but I would be opposed to it. The field does not need to be watered down any further, I think 16 teams was perfect.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The fact that the Hens were in the discussion for a playoff spot this year tells you that no expansion is needed.

By whom? xconfusedx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I don't really remember Delaware as a viable candidate once they could'nt reach the 7 either, much like Montana was not last year. Sure the fans like to pipe dream (not talking about 89 there) and I even heard the Delaware TV guys talking about the possibility after it was clear they wouldn't get 7 but I just figured they were trying to keep fan interest high.

[MplsBison]

Jack Juice-

1. The Ivies have completely flipped because of something that happened with Tommy Amaker recruiting at Harvard.
2. Some other Ivies have been doing what I stated for years.
3. I was good enough in another sport to be recruited by an Ivy...and I was offered cash even though my parents combined income was well above the level limits that would have allowed me to receive aid if I had been a regular student. This was at Princeton.

That said, go review the new Ivy model for aid...and STFU until you do so.

Come on dude. You knew exactly what I meant. Knew exactly that I was right. And you give me this crap???


AS I SAID -- Ivy schools do not, DO NOT, give money to football players that only those football players can get.

[LUHawker]

Or maybe the message is "guys, there's a better way that you could've been doing it these past decades - even though the way you're doing it now is OK".

However, that better way is absolutely, positively NOT NOT NOT by giving non-scholarship conferences auto-bids to a division I post season tournament!!! PFL and IL have done nothing to prove that they can compete with the best scholarship teams in this division while stubbornly refusing to provide money to their players -- which they've earned. (you know what I mean, piss off).

So, you don't think that Lehigh team from the non-scholly PL should have been there, do you?

[MplsBison]

So, you don't think that Lehigh team from the non-scholly PL should have been there, do you?

Lehigh gives money to football players that regular students can't qualify for. It's not institutional aid.

Therefore, they are not non-scholarship.

[Saint3333]

With the NCAA, it is all about the money as far as playoff hosting is concerned.

Adding 4 additional Thanksgiving Day games will not make money, this makes zero sense. But I'm not surprised, when they went to 20 I said we'd see 24 by 2014. Soon we'll have 6-5 teams making the playoffs with no room to bash the 6-6 bowl eligible teams.

[frozennorth]

If it does go to a 24-team bracket, then the NCAA might as well seed the top 8 teams. Under bylaws, they only have to see 25% of the bracket. However since 8 teams would get byes and host the 8 first-round winners, it might as well be done.

If it isn't, then a situation could happen when an unseeded team who got a bye could travel to a team that didn't get a bye in the quarter or semi finals.

would have happened last year if ndsu had beaten ewu

[FargoBison]

I'm only for it if two conferences step up and want to join the fray. I don't support giving the PFL a bid and then adding three more at-larges.

[frozennorth]

playoffs need to be cut back to 16 teams. Or fewer.

[FargoBison]

playoffs need to be cut back to 16 teams. Or fewer.

Umm...no. The Big South and NEC have earned their spots and the top teams deserve byes.

20 is actually a great number since it limits the amount of Thanksgiving Weekend games.

[Redwyn]

Come on dude. You knew exactly what I meant. Knew exactly that I was right. And you give me this crap???


AS I SAID -- Ivy schools do not, DO NOT, give money to football players that only those football players can get.

Yeah, and fairy godmothers are real and the world is fair....oh wait...my best friend was given a full ride to play lacrosse at Princeton. My other close friend was given a massive scholarship to fence for Harvard. My closest HS friend was given 300K from Columbia for Physics research. By the way, before you ask if it was need-based: I come from one of the richest areas of the North Shore of Long Island. Two are white multi-millionaires, the fencer is Chinese whose father owns substantial business interests in Shanghai. Oh wait...My cousin and I were both offered academic scholarships at Cornell (you know, the ones that don't exist). They called them "loan forgiveness". I'm a doctor's son.

Yes - the word scholarship wasn't used. They call them Alumni grants or Presidential awards. They just so happen to cover the full cost of education for 4 years. Now there's something intriguing about these grants. In order for them not to be considered scholarships, they have to be given to the kid whether they compete in the sport or not. My friend figured this out at Harvard, where she was given money to fence, then dropped from the team the first day of practice. She still received said money for the duration of her academic career.

Let's be honest here.
1. Whether scholarships are offered or not, Ivy League schools aren't breaking any rules.
2. They Ivyies are the Ivyies. They can do whatever they want, and they know it. The word Harvard is so valuable that professors there make less because Harvard EXPECTS them to pick up outside endorsements due to their titles.
3. I used to think athletic aid was the devil..but frankly now I don't have a problem with it. I devoted my life to medicine and engineering. I got great offers from Ivy League and high academic programs across the country for my talents. I got money for what I had done in school. More money came in when I won major national awards for continuing to do what I do best. Football or Basketball players devote the same time - and deserve rewarding for their efforts. The British do the same for athletes - I'm a proud Cambridge man who saw it first hand. Fact is. Any of us who were never varsity athletes can never comment on the degree of work and stress they put themselves through.

But in summary -
YES. The Ivies offer scholarships.
NO, they're not called scholarships.
YES, they do the same thing.
YES, they have a right to.
NO, no one will ever call them out on it.
YES. They'll continue doing whatever they want - and status quo will continue

[Dane96]

THIS! Boom, goes the dynamite. Since that was just what everyone is thinking.

Thanks, Redwyn!

I'd actually love to meet MPLS since it would get me closer to knowing what was in Marcellus Wallace's briefcase (both are objects in fantasy land).

[superman7515]

I was always under the impression it was his soul, hence the band-aid on the back of his neck? In some asian cultures it's believed that the soul can be removed through the back of the neck, then once he gets the briefcase back in the movie, the band-aid is gone because he has his soul back. Tarantino has always maintained it was nothing, originally intended to be the diamonds from Reservoir Dogs but they changed their mind and it's whatever you wanted it to be.

[UNH Fanboi]

I'm fine with expanding the playoffS if there is a scholarship minimum (say 40 scholarships) for getting an auto-bid. If the PFL wants to be a part of the playoffs, they should be required to do more than invest the absolute bare minimum necessary to field a team. What separates a D1 football team from a D3 team if there is no minimum standard?

[89Hen]

I don't really remember Delaware as a viable candidate once they could'nt reach the 7 either, much like Montana was not last year. Sure the fans like to pipe dream (not talking about 89 there) and I even heard the Delaware TV guys talking about the possibility after it was clear they wouldn't get 7 but I just figured they were trying to keep fan interest high.

There were plenty of mentions that they were considered. None of us Hen fans thought they should or would be chosen, but they were one of the teams talked about as first out. My point being that they shouldn't have been mentioned by anyone.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

NO, no one will ever call them out on it.

I agree with everything in your post except for this. I will continue to call them out on it. Repeatedly.

[RichH2]

To emphasize Redwyn's spot on post, the argument that IL is non scholarship is patently ridiculous. They are. The major difference ,whether the aid is for football or poetry , is that it is NOT an annual grant as football schollies are. It is for the entire 4 yrs. Once admitted , maintain your academic standing and the aid continues whether or not you quit the team. An expensive proposition but IL can afford it

[PAllen]

The fact that the Hens were in the discussion for a playoff spot this year tells you that no expansion is needed.

The only discussion they were in was in their own minds.

[PAllen]

I'm only for it if two conferences step up and want to join the fray. I don't support giving the PFL a bid and then adding three more at-larges.

+1

[RichH2]

Not really opposed to expansion per se, but I have reservations on PFL getting an automatic. Adding 4 at larges may serve to get their Champ in if deserving. The thought of 7-8 CAA teams in a 24 team field does make mea bit nauseousxrolleyesx

[danefan]

Not really opposed to expansion per se, but I have reservations on PFL getting an automatic. Adding 4 at larges may serve to get their Champ in if deserving. The thought of 7-8 CAA teams in a 24 team field does make mea bit nauseousxrolleyesx

What is your reservation with the PFL AQ?

And before anyone else chimes in, I'm only curious in Rich's reservations. Mpls - you've made your opinion clear.

[RichH2]

What is your reservation with the PFL AQ?

Specifically, most years it is just bringing in a team w/o any chance of winning. PFL does occasionally have some pretty good squads that could at least compete but To me , existence alone does not equate with entitlement. PFL must improve their OOC. Show us that you can compete with other conferences. I really dont care whether they give scholarships or not. Can they consistently compete? PL guys like me are much closer to that angst then most here. PL not yet a top conference but we can certainly compete with CAA et al.

[henfan]

If the NCAA incurs added expense due to the glut of additional playoff participants, perhaps the makers of Juicy Juice juiceboxes will become a primary sponsor of first round games.xsalutex

[89Hen]

The only discussion they were in was in their own minds.


But perennially strong programs such as Delaware, Wofford and Liberty and perhaps a surging Portland State squad that could move to 8-3 on Saturday face having playoff-worthy resumes that don't include seven D-I wins.

"We're going to have to look at that this year. There's a number of quality teams out there that that might be the case," O'Day said.

"I think we look at that seven-win plateau as a benchmark. It helps us work the field a little bit. It's not one that we absolutely have to hang out hats on. But it is one we give a great deal of respect for as far as criteria. But there certainly can be instances, especially this year when you've got so many teams that are right in that area."


http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/16/in-fcs-huddle-committee-agonizes-over-final-picks/#ixzz1ihlOaeCu

[UNH Fanboi]

Not really opposed to expansion per se, but I have reservations on PFL getting an automatic. Adding 4 at larges may serve to get their Champ in if deserving. The thought of 7-8 CAA teams in a 24 team field does make mea bit nauseousxrolleyesx

As long as the NCAA sticks with the 7-win guideline, which I think they will, there will never be that many CAA teams. More likely there would be some extra OVC and MEAC teams, which would be much worse.

[UNH Fanboi]

The committee will pay lip-service to considering 6-win teams since the 7-win "rule" is not really a rule. But I think it's pretty clear at this point that they will not let a 6-win team in unless there are absolutely no other options, which I dont ever see being the case in a 20-team field. There will always be some 7-win PL, MEAC and OVC teams to choose from.

Delaware beat 2 playoffs teams this year and JMU beat a top-15 FBS team last year. What other 6-win team will ever have a resume better than those?

[RichH2]

As long as the NCAA sticks with the 7-win guideline, which I think they will, there will never be that many CAA teams. More likely there would be some extra OVC and MEAC teams, which would be much worse.


True

[Cleets]

Delaware beat 2 playoffs teams this year and JMU beat a top-15 FBS team last year. What other 6-win team will ever have a resume better than those?

Villanova, that's who..!!!
Just ask their coach, even at 2-8 they were better than half of the playoff teams selected

[danefan]

Specifically, most years it is just bringing in a team w/o any chance of winning. PFL does occasionally have some pretty good squads that could at least compete but To me , existence alone does not equate with entitlement. PFL must improve their OOC. Show us that you can compete with other conferences. I really dont care whether they give scholarships or not. Can they consistently compete? PL guys like me are much closer to that angst then most here. PL not yet a top conference but we can certainly compete with CAA et al.

I agree with most of this by the way. I do think the PFL has stepped up their scheduling and it will continue to get better. Dayton has a contract with Youngstown State now and there are other examples. Of course there is also the occasional examples of DIII games, but I think the NCAA can make it clear to the PFL that they need to drop those games if they want access. That's what happened to the NEC and effective 2012, NEC teams are no longer allowed to play Sub-DI games. League rule. It helps that former PFL coaches are now in major conference programs as well. Case-in-point is Drake hosting Montana State next year.

[RichH2]

I agree with most of this by the way. I do think the PFL has stepped up their scheduling and it will continue to get better. Dayton has a contract with Youngstown State now and there are other examples. Of course there is also the occasional examples of DIII games, but I think the NCAA can make it clear to the PFL that they need to drop those games if they want access. That's what happened to the NEC and effective 2012, NEC teams are no longer allowed to play Sub-DI games. League rule. It helps that former PFL coaches are now in major conference programs as well. Case-in-point is Drake hosting Montana State next year.

Good timing, was just looking at PFL schedules. OOC is getting better. I dont even think they have to begin by winning those games, but have close competitive contests with schollie teams will do more to boost PFL chances than complaining to Committee about the unfairness of it all

[ursus arctos horribilis]

http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2011/11/16/in-fcs-huddle-committee-agonizes-over-final-picks/#ixzz1ihlOaeCu

Actually, I should have went further in my last comment. I would hope that in their position which was a real decent resume that they would at least be discussed. But the fact that they were not in sort of let's me know that even a couple of good money earners and teams like Delaware and Montana that compete well don't get in with it, nobody else has a legitimate gripe.

Now changing the comittee's paradigm because these type of teams didn't hit the imagined but real requirements would be a pretty ****ty deal. Keeping Montana & Delaware out the last couple of years shows some integrity in the process to me.

[BisonBacker]

No surprise here. Title of the news article in the Fargo Forum this morning...
"Appears to be little opposition to expanding FCS playoff field"
Read more here.

http://www.inforum.com/event/article/id/350032/

[RichH2]

Even when we are not in them playoffs are fun, expansion I hope will increase the fun

[GlassOnion]

Not again. Theyre already watered down enough, this is beginning to be like the bowl system crap. They'll be bringing in 6 win CAA and Socon teams. We should just do away with the season, and play a 124 team playoff.

[OhioHen]

Not again. Theyre already watered down enough, this is beginning to be like the bowl system crap. They'll be bringing in 6 win CAA and Socon teams. We should just do away with the season, and play a 124 team playoff.

You'll have to settle for 108 teams. The Ivy and SWAC don't want to participate.

[LakesBison]

I absolutely HATE THIS! 16 was great, 20 was fine, 24 is stupid.

thanksgiving weekend games SUCK.

crappy autobid conferences SUCK.

time for FBS.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I absolutely HATE THIS! 16 was great, 20 was fine, 24 is stupid.

thanksgiving weekend games SUCK.

crappy autobid conferences SUCK.

time for FBS.

Thanksgiving weekend has been a part of the playoffs for a very long time slick. The simple fact of the matter is that you were probably doing this exact same *****ing when you left D2 for FCS and now turn it around to ***** about FCS.

You were ecstatic to be in the playoffs and have a chance at and then winning a NC. You want to **** on it now then good ****ing riddance to fans like you cuz you'll just be *****ing about the fact that you don't even have the opportunity to play for one in FBS and I will try and follow along to see how much you start to sound like a PL fan that you also currently bash for wanting an opportunity.

I will honestly be happy watching some of you dudes being pissed on when and if it happens because you left a place that not only respects your program but also relished the cmopetition with ya.

Good riddance ****ers. See ya in the funny papers.

[Twentysix]

Thanksgiving weekend has been a part of the playoffs for a very long time slick. The simple fact of the matter is that you were probably doing this exact same *****ing when you left D2 for FCS and now turn it around to ***** about FCS.

You were ecstatic to be in the playoffs and have a chance at and then winning a NC. You want to **** on it now then good ****ing riddance to fans like you cuz you'll just be *****ing about the fact that you don't even have the opportunity to play for one in FBS and I will try and follow along to see how much you start to sound like a PL fan that you also currently bash for wanting an opportunity.

I will honestly be happy watching some of you dudes being pissed on when and if it happens because you left a place that not only respects your program but also relished the cmopetition with ya.

Good riddance ****ers. See ya in the funny papers.

xsmhx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

xsmhx

What? Not supposed to retort to the move up crowd?

[Twentysix]

What? Not supposed to retort to the move up crowd?

Your post has to many broad elements.

I smh@u

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Your post has to many broad elements.

I smh@u
Like what? Did you unwittingly see it as directed at you and not just the guys like Lakes and some other fans around here that try and wipe their *** with the division that has afforded them some real opportunities?

[asumike83]

While the "move up crowd" and the "sh** on FCS crowd" are not mutually exclusive, they are not always one in the same either. I am as sick of the latter as anyone.

[Twentysix]

Thanksgiving weekend has been a part of the playoffs for a very long time slick. agree The simple fact of the matter is that you were probably doing this exact same *****ing when you left D2 for FCS and now turn it around to ***** about FCS. disagree, D2 really did turn into a ****show, and when schools like MSUM move into FCS you will agree

You were ecstatic to be in the playoffs and have a chance at and then winning a NC. agree You want to **** on it now then good ****ing riddance to fans like you cuz you'll just be *****ing about the fact that you don't even have the opportunity to play for one in FBS and I will try and follow along to see how much you start to sound like a PL fan that you also currently bash for wanting an opportunity.somewhat agree with this

I will honestly be happy watching some of you dudes being pissed on when and if it happens because you left a place that not only respects your program but also relished the cmopetition with ya. are you happy about boise being pissed on?

Good riddance ****ers. See ya in the funny papers. very broad

.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

So the last line is the "very broad" head shaker?

Got it.

You agree or somewhat agree with most of the rest of it though and ask if I am happy to see Boise getting pissed on...no, in fact Boise has done all they can and should be proof that even making all the right moves, doing everything asked of you, and even winning to make a program and still not having a shot at proving it should say volumes about FBS.

Go take a look at Mountaineers sheet with the former good FCS move ups and the level of respect they now have by the big boys. Other than Boise...not so much.

If a school wants to move up and it's right for them then good enough but the constant belittling and bashing and wiping your *** on the drapes on the way out the house is what really does bring aobut my schadenfreude in this matter.

You should have used an extra "o" in "to many" a post or so ago.

There, now we've beaten each other up enough on the content of our posts.:D

[LakesBison]

i said time for FBS if the FCS is gonna keep expanding, or not support their teams. nothing to get mad about. NDSU would prove itself at FBS.


like ive said before. there is 10 solid fcs programs (including montana/montana state) they would be a helluva fbs conference!

[Twentysix]

So the last line is the "very broad" head shaker?

Got it.

You agree or somewhat agree with most of the rest of it though and ask if I am happy to see Boise getting pissed on...no, in fact Boise has done all they can and should be proof that even making all the right moves, doing everything asked of you, and even winning to make a program and still not having a shot at proving it should say volumes about FBS.

Go take a look at Mountaineers sheet with the former good FCS move ups and the level of respect they now have by the big boys. Other than Boise...not so much.

If a school wants to move up and it's right for them then good enough but the constant belittling and bashing and wiping your *** on the drapes on the way out the house is what really does bring aobut my schadenfreude in this matter.

You should have used an extra "o" in "to many" a post or so ago.

There, now we've beaten each other up enough on the content of our posts.:D

Your grammar would be off also, if you were posting in haste while being invaded by barbarians.

Mumbai was under constant barbarian assault.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Your grammar would be off also, if you were posting in haste while being invaded by barbarians.

Mumbai was under constant barbarian assault.xlolx

My grammar has been fairly off for at least the last few weeks and even before then it left a little to be desired. I just had to take a shot where I could.

****in' barbarians! Mind your own damn bidness.

[MTfan4life]

Go ahead move up. It will be fun watching NDSU play Florida International in the who gives a crap GoDaddy.com bowl. Yes, the FBS is much higher exposure, but peak success is winning a conference championship and beating a lower level team in a meaningless bowl. That's the peak. It took Boise State multiple years of unblemished success to even get to a point where they got a chance to play in a BCS bowl. There are no mulligans.

[darell1976]

Go ahead move up. It will be fun watching NDSU play Florida International in the who gives a crap GoDaddy.com bowl. Yes, the FBS is much higher exposure, but peak success is winning a conference championship and beating a lower level team in a meaningless bowl. That's the peak. It took Boise State multiple years of unblemished success to even get to a point where they got a chance to play in a BCS bowl. There are no mulligans.

Thats why I would love to see NDSU play top FBS teams. If Lakes wants to go to the FBS so bad play the top dogs, get Oklahoma or Alabama on the slate and then see if you are FBS ready.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Thats why I would love to see NDSU play top FBS teams. If Lakes wants to go to the FBS so bad play the top dogs, get Oklahoma or Alabama on the slate and then see if you are FBS ready.

Not a fair way to look at things either. The obvious advantages that those teams have wouldn't be a predictor of what could be if the playing field were more level. The problem is that the way the FBS structure is it can not be level even for teams at that amount of schollies.

If App had been FBS when they played Michigan it would have been a little bit of an upset but it would not have been recognized as much of anything a few games later. Being a top dog FCS gave them legendary status.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

Is this what happens when a school wins the FCS title for the first time, with all of the new bandwagon fans pulling the gangplanks up? The MVFC usually does a mighty job of charring each other and failing to win the AQ will cause butterflies for almost any coach on Selection Sunday. The NCAA requires that there be at least as many at-large teams as AQ teams. It only has the PFL standing outside the playoffs, and if their schedules are judged to be competitive, they are full D-1 schools, and soon to be almost 10% of the division-- hard to ignore.

Attendance was up across the Board on the playoffs, but I have not heard anyone declare the tournament 'profitable'. 22 might be a way point if the PFL qualifies leaving 24 for the day the Ivy League wakes up. I doubt the SWAC can afford to abandon their scheduling. Their APR worries look to be a longer term issue, keeping a handful of schools out of any postseason for years, diluting further the conference championship.

[BisonBacker]

Is this what happens when a school wins the FCS title for the first time, with all of the new bandwagon fans pulling the gangplanks up? The MVFC usually does a mighty job of charring each other and failing to win the AQ will cause butterflies for almost any coach on Selection Sunday. The NCAA requires that there be at least as many at-large teams as AQ teams. It only has the PFL standing outside the playoffs, and if their schedules are judged to be competitive, they are full D-1 schools, and soon to be almost 10% of the division-- hard to ignore.

Attendance was up across the Board on the playoffs, but I have not heard anyone declare the tournament 'profitable'. 22 might be a way point if the PFL qualifies leaving 24 for the day the Ivy League wakes up. I doubt the SWAC can afford to abandon their scheduling. Their APR worries look to be a longer term issue, keeping a handful of schools out of any postseason for years, diluting further the conference championship.


No it's not what happens. You just have to realize that every team has it's share of asshat followers. The poster in question here is one that unfortunately follows ours. In his warped mind/world the more you post on every message board about how great you are, how many trips to the south you personally make, how many people you don't care if you piss off, how many message boards you get kicked off of, how many political officials you threaten only to have the police called on you ect ect ect. Well you get my drift. The guy is an absolute nutjob. He will never grow up. He will forever be the type of person who will have the mentality that my dad can beat up your dad. So please don't lump all Bison fans into the same bandwagon or assume that NDSU's fans are all asshats. Yes we have a few "Like all schools" but they are not representative of our fans as a whole. They just unfortunately don't have a life and seem to get off on making fools of themselves on message boards.

[henfan]

With the additional week already added to the post-season, there's little reason why the NCAA won't eventually go the 32 bids, especially if they can find a way to make the Thanksgiving Day weekend games profitable. When is enough enough? How many post-season slots will be added before the regular season is rendered virtually meaningless? 24? 32? We're only one additional week away from having the capacity to invite 64 teams. Would that be enough?

[danefan]

Adding the PFL AQ and one more at large is enough for now, IMO.

If another league wants an AQ (Ivy or SWAC) then expand again.

[aceinthehole]

Adding the PFL AQ and one more at large is enough for now, IMO.

If another league wants an AQ (Ivy or SWAC) then expand again.

+1

[MplsBison]

Go ahead move up. It will be fun watching NDSU play Florida International in the who gives a crap GoDaddy.com bowl. Yes, the FBS is much higher exposure, but peak success is winning a conference championship and beating a lower level team in a meaningless bowl. That's the peak. It took Boise State multiple years of unblemished success to even get to a point where they got a chance to play in a BCS bowl. There are no mulligans.

It will be fun watching Montana reach 'the peak' in the FCS national championship game.

Oh wait...you won't be able to watch them when ESPN relegates all minor league college football to ESPN 3 internet broadcasts. FCS is minor leagues, same as DII and DIII. At least, that's what casual football fans think and that's what ESPN thinks.


What good is reaching a "peak" if no one gives a flying crap that you got there????


At least the lower bowl games are actually televised and marketed by ESPN. At least NDSU would have a chance to be viewed by casual football fans who had never heard of the school before.

No one watches FCS championship game except existing fans (ie, alumni) of the schools playing in the game.

[MplsBison]

Adding the PFL AQ and one more at large is enough for now, IMO.

If another league wants an AQ (Ivy or SWAC) then expand again.

No AQ for the DIII schools (Pioneer).

[MplsBison]

I agree with most of this by the way. I do think the PFL has stepped up their scheduling and it will continue to get better. Dayton has a contract with Youngstown State now and there are other examples. Of course there is also the occasional examples of DIII games, but I think the NCAA can make it clear to the PFL that they need to drop those games if they want access. That's what happened to the NEC and effective 2012, NEC teams are no longer allowed to play Sub-DI games. League rule. It helps that former PFL coaches are now in major conference programs as well. Case-in-point is Drake hosting Montana State next year.

Drake and Dayton are at least respectable. As was San Diego when they had Harbaugh. Those teams need to leave the PFL and join real conferences.

The rest of the Pioneer league should not be allowed to participate in varsity football at the FCS level. Have club teams. Nothing wrong with that.

[MplsBison]

If the Pioneer somehow manages to bribe someone into getting an AQ - I want NDSU out of this non-division ASAP. Leave the teacher's colleges and small private schools that can't afford real college football to themselves.

I don't care if they win 3 games the first 3 seasons until they adjust up to the FBS level. It only took 4 seasons to win the FCS championship. Shouldn't take that long to produce meaningful wins at the FBS level.

[BisonBacker]

It will be fun watching Montana reach 'the peak' in the FCS national championship game.

Oh wait...you won't be able to watch them when ESPN relegates all minor league college football to ESPN 3 internet broadcasts. FCS is minor leagues, same as DII and DIII. At least, that's what casual football fans think and that's what ESPN thinks.


What good is reaching a "peak" if no one gives a flying crap that you got there????


At least the lower bowl games are actually televised and marketed by ESPN. At least NDSU would have a chance to be viewed by casual football fans who had never heard of the school before.

No one watches FCS championship game except existing fans (ie, alumni) of the schools playing in the game.


If you love FBS football so damn much why don't you find an FBS team to support and throw all your weight behind that school and support them. NDSU and it's fans would very much appreciate that. xsmileyclapx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

It will be fun watching Montana reach 'the peak' in the FCS national championship game.

Oh wait...you won't be able to watch them when ESPN relegates all minor league college football to ESPN 3 internet broadcasts. FCS is minor leagues, same as DII and DIII. At least, that's what casual football fans think and that's what ESPN thinks.


What good is reaching a "peak" if no one gives a flying crap that you got there????


At least the lower bowl games are actually televised and marketed by ESPN. At least NDSU would have a chance to be viewed by casual football fans who had never heard of the school before.

No one watches FCS championship game except existing fans (ie, alumni) of the schools playing in the game.

You are not real well informed. ESPN trying to get away with that ESPN3 thing didn't work out for them and in fact caused enough of a stir that the NCAA had them make assurances that televising meant putting it on TV and not the net with the contract extension or whatever it was a couple months back. I hope that ESPN does decide to get rid of FCS coverage at some point.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

BisonBacker--I did talk about bandwagon fans, and overall the longer term NDSU posters here, with a few exceptions, are reasonable. I do also believe that it is worth discussing the number of playoff slots, though I do not know how you exclude an association of Division 1 member schools like the PFL who have met the criteria for a conference (a core group of member schools playing together for a minimum of so many years) out of the tournament.

There is one caveat: The number of tournament participants has to be proportional-- this is why the DII and DIII tourneys are larger-- more schools playing football. We will not be be going to 32 anytime soon, and 24 would seem a stretch. (The NCAA also allows for only 25% to be seeded, or get guaranteed home games until they meet a higher seed- currently 5.)

What conference meeting the basic qualifications stands outside the NCAA D1 tournament in any sport? I can think maybe one (rowing).

[MTfan4life]

It will be fun watching Montana reach 'the peak' in the FCS national championship game.

Oh wait...you won't be able to watch them when ESPN relegates all minor league college football to ESPN 3 internet broadcasts. FCS is minor leagues, same as DII and DIII. At least, that's what casual football fans think and that's what ESPN thinks.


What good is reaching a "peak" if no one gives a flying crap that you got there????


At least the lower bowl games are actually televised and marketed by ESPN. At least NDSU would have a chance to be viewed by casual football fans who had never heard of the school before.

No one watches FCS championship game except existing fans (ie, alumni) of the schools playing in the game.

Here exactly is what your problem is, MissBison. Why does it matter to me, a Montana fan, what Joe Schmo in Austin, TX or Tweedle Dum in Kansas City cares about Montana's football program? "Oh man, my team just won, but it was all for nothing because Tom from New York wasn't watching. I wish I was a meaningless school in the FBS." If you don't like the FCS get out of this site. Quit *****ing that other people don't care about the FCS. We don't care. Who gives a **** about what ESPN markets? So NDSU's national championship doesn't matter because no one watched it? DJkyR0 and all the other NDSU posters on here shouldnt be happy about it because not enough people watched it.


What good is reaching a "peak" if no one gives a flying crap that you got there????

This is the dumbest thing anyone has ever said. "Throw away that damn FCS national championship trophy! No one watched our game, so that ain't worth S**T!"

[Wilson16]

Too soon to add playoff teams. IMO they just want to make as much money as possible before the dominos in FBS fall and they lose some higher quality FCS teams.

[henfan]

Too soon to add playoff teams. IMO they just want to make as much money as possible before the dominos in FBS fall and they lose some higher quality FCS teams.

Alas, the NCAA is now reporting a 1/2 million LO$$ on the FCS championship playoffs. The addition of teams and automatic bids has turned a once profitable-to-break even venture into a money loser. Adding more games and jetting more teams around the country certainly isn't likely to improve the financial picture.

But the loss of revenue is the NCAA's problem, not ours. They can continue to add teams and rounds and the negative net financial effect shouldn't impact our schools, right?

[Mr. C]

You are not real well informed.

Telling Minneapolis Bison that has to be the understatement of the year on AGS (and it's just February). He is the poster boy of Uninformed.

[Mr. C]

Adding the PFL AQ and one more at large is enough for now, IMO.

If another league wants an AQ (Ivy or SWAC) then expand again.

A 22-team playoff would just be a little unwieldy for the folks who run FCS, as opposed to 24 teams. Allowing three more at-larges makes it something that most everyone of the FCS conferences can get behind. It is a carrot to consolidate support. If the Ivy League, or SWAC jump on board at some point, you just take back one of those at-larges and it works fine. I can tell you from discussions I've had with all of the FCS commissioners not named Robin Harris that they all think that the Ivy League would do wonders for the public perception of the FCS playoffs. We have talked about how cool it would be to have a playoff games at Harvard Stadium, Franklin Field, or the Yale Bowl and how folks like ESPN would jump at a chance to televise the end of the Ivy League's postseason football ban.

[danefan]

A 22-team playoff would just be a little unwieldy for the folks who run FCS, as opposed to 24 teams. Allowing three more at-larges makes it something that most everyone of the FCS conferences can get behind. It is a carrot to consolidate support. If the Ivy League, or SWAC jump on board at some point, you just take back one of those at-larges and it works fine. I can tell you from discussions I've had with all of the FCS commissioners not named Robin Harris that they all think that the Ivy League would do wonders for the public perception of the FCS playoffs. We have talked about how cool it would be to have a playoff games at Harvard Stadium, Franklin Field, or the Yale Bowl and how folks like ESPN would jump at a chance to televise the end of the Ivy League's postseason football ban.

I get the logistical point about 24 and as long as the understanding is that you'd pull back an AQ if the Ivy or SWAC wanted an AQ, I agree with it.

I also agree that the NCAA's #1 mission if it really wants to increase the exposure and $$$ ability of the FCS playoffs is to get the the Ivy and SWAC on board.

[Twentysix]

I get the logistical point about 24 and as long as the understanding is that you'd pull back an AQ if the Ivy or SWAC wanted an AQ, I agree with it.

I also agree that the NCAA's #1 mission if it really wants to increase the exposure and $$$ ability of the FCS playoffs is to get the the Ivy and SWAC on board.

24 teams and raising the minimum bids for hosting, would probably help to make the tournament atleast break even.

[MplsBison]

Here exactly is what your problem is, MissBison. Why does it matter to me, a Montana fan, what Joe Schmo in Austin, TX or Tweedle Dum in Kansas City cares about Montana's football program? "Oh man, my team just won, but it was all for nothing because Tom from New York wasn't watching. I wish I was a meaningless school in the FBS." If you don't like the FCS get out of this site. Quit *****ing that other people don't care about the FCS. We don't care. Who gives a **** about what ESPN markets? So NDSU's national championship doesn't matter because no one watched it? DJkyR0 and all the other NDSU posters on here shouldnt be happy about it because not enough people watched it.



This is the dumbest thing anyone has ever said. "Throw away that damn FCS national championship trophy! No one watched our game, so that ain't worth S**T!"

I'll get off this site just as soon as NDSU wises up and gets out of this division.

Yes, great plan by the FCS braintrust. Let's water down the playoffs even more by inviting DIII teams to have an automatic bid. What a joke.

FCS deserves the same treatment by TV networks that DIII gets - same product.

[MplsBison]

Alas, the NCAA is now reporting a 1/2 million LO$$ on the FCS championship playoffs. The addition of teams and automatic bids has turned a once profitable-to-break even venture into a money loser. Adding more games and jetting more teams around the country certainly isn't likely to improve the financial picture.

But the loss of revenue is the NCAA's problem, not ours. They can continue to add teams and rounds and the negative net financial effect shouldn't impact our schools, right?

As long as you're a Montana fan and don't care if any of the playoff games are seen on TV - then nope, no negative impact.

[MplsBison]

A 22-team playoff would just be a little unwieldy for the folks who run FCS, as opposed to 24 teams. Allowing three more at-larges makes it something that most everyone of the FCS conferences can get behind. It is a carrot to consolidate support. If the Ivy League, or SWAC jump on board at some point, you just take back one of those at-larges and it works fine. I can tell you from discussions I've had with all of the FCS commissioners not named Robin Harris that they all think that the Ivy League would do wonders for the public perception of the FCS playoffs. We have talked about how cool it would be to have a playoff games at Harvard Stadium, Franklin Field, or the Yale Bowl and how folks like ESPN would jump at a chance to televise the end of the Ivy League's postseason football ban.

So give the AQ's to the Ivy and SWAC.

PFL doesn't deserve one.

[DetroitFlyer]

I'll get off this site just as soon as NDSU wises up and gets out of this division.

Yes, great plan by the FCS braintrust. Let's water down the playoffs even more by inviting DIII teams to have an automatic bid. What a joke.

FCS deserves the same treatment by TV networks that DIII gets - same product.

GREAT NEWS! The first part in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have a problem.... I have known for years that you suffer from an acute case of FBS Wannabeeism. I am glad to hear that you have finally been able to admit it to yourself. As I have said before, please do not let the door hit you on the way out!xnodx

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Too soon to add playoff teams. IMO they just want to make as much money as possible before the dominos in FBS fall and they lose some higher quality FCS teams.

I never understand this line of thinking. It's just so void of thought. Of course they should want to make money. We should want them to make money at it because it gives FCS teams a better standing. The playoffs are not a money maker and if they are trying to look for ways to bring in more money and more fans then I don't feel the need to sit back and act like this is Apple moving their workforce to China.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

We will miss NDSU, but please, go. The Big East is taking Memphis, for Pete's sake.

[asumike83]

I'm all about watching more playoff football but I'm just not so sure there are 24 teams deserving of a title shot on an annual basis. You'd have to think this will lead to bids for either 7-4 teams from weak conferences or 6-5 teams from power conferences. Plus, it's not like this will stop the cries from teams who feel they got snubbed. You can expand all you want but there is always going to be those teams on the bubble who end up left out in the cold.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

We are not talking about 7-4 teams from weak conferences, or 6-5 schools from the traditional powers. Using 2011 as an example, it is whether a Duquesne(NEC) or Georgetown(Patriot), with all D1 schedules and 9-2 and 8-3 records respectively, or an ISUr(MVFC), Delaware(CAA) or even Portland State(BSC) at 7-4, beat up in historically tougher conference play and/or FBS scheduling, deserve a place in the tournament.

You are never going to get the kind of regular season sampling of strength of a team or conference you can get in other sports when you have only two, three or four OOC opportunities per school. This is especially true where 1-3 of those slots are taken by Bowl Subdivision opponents. For this, the tournament works. Maybe that was the rationale in setting the number of at-large slots at minimally equivalent to the AQs.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

I'm all about watching more playoff football but I'm just not so sure there are 24 teams deserving of a title shot on an annual basis. You'd have to think this will lead to bids for either 7-4 teams from weak conferences or 6-5 teams from power conferences. Plus, it's not like this will stop the cries from teams who feel they got snubbed. You can expand all you want but there is always going to be those teams on the bubble who end up left out in the cold.

It's possible that could happen but I think it would be rare. We always want to see the inter divisional matchups to see if the blowhards from each conference are right or wrong.

BucBison makes a lot of the point I was tossing around when reading your post so I'll just give the examples of teams like ISU's and so forth this year. Seeing them play a PL, Big Sky, Socon, CAA, etc. that also is also in a slot like them gives us more opportunities to see the mathcups we rarely get to see. That is not good reasoning to expand and I'm not using it as such, just saying there is a benefit to it.

We're definitely at the edge here but I think there is gonna be a lot of great football games to see with matchups we would not otherwise ever see and teams we rarely get an opportunity to view in the regular season.

It will also give us some new blood once in a while with new teams having a chip & a chair so new fans on AGS to teach a lesson or two to.:D

[asumike83]

BucBison and ursus: Y'all each made some good points and I certainly see where you're coming from. Seeing the non-AQ's face the power conference teams in the playoffs would be entertaining for sure. It would give us games that we'd usually never see and could make for some unexpected dramatic games and upsets. As I said earlier, I am all about more playoff football if the quality doesn't suffer.

As for the specific teams mentioned, I would hope that an expanded field would not allow for the consideration of teams with less than 7 DI wins. Although Portland St. and Delaware were each 7-4, neither had 7 DI wins and I would be against any format that rewarded power conference teams for scheduling DII competition.

In the end, the most deserving team will win it all as long as we have a playoff system and if it gets us more folks to talk FCS with around here, I'm cool with that. However, if this does come to be, the job of the selection committee will become even more important because a bad job could lead to a very diluted field.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

Can't disagree with any of that Mike.

[BucBisonAtLarge]

This all makes for great debate in the off-season.

[MplsBison]

GREAT NEWS! The first part in solving a problem is acknowledging that you have a problem.... I have known for years that you suffer from an acute case of FBS Wannabeeism. I am glad to hear that you have finally been able to admit it to yourself. As I have said before, please do not let the door hit you on the way out!xnodx

I am a fully fledged FBS wannabe. I can't wait for NDSU to make the move up to the next level.

I don't care if they never get above a MAC-level. That's higher exposure and a higher financial commitment than any FCS team gets.


It's just a shame that this division is getting pulled down by the have-nots. But the exact same thing happened to DII. NDSU should've moved up 10-15 years before they did. Hopefully they won't make the same mistake again!

[henfan]

I am a fully fledged FBS wannabe. I can't wait for NDSU to make the move up to the next level.

I don't care if they never get above a MAC-level. That's higher exposure and a higher financial commitment than any FCS team gets.

Can't speak for other FCS programs but few, if any, MAC programs have FB revenues & expenses exceeding Delaware's. The NCAA doesn't cap revenues or expenses for FCS schools and, by the same token, the MAC doesn't impose mimimums on expenses or revenues. A school, regardless of the subdivision, is capable of spending and taking in as much money as they want to/are capable of accumulating.

[Mr. C]

So give the AQ's to the Ivy and SWAC.

PFL doesn't deserve one.

Every league in FCS should be entitled to an AQ, if they want one. The whole reason for expanding to 20 teams and adding AQs to the NEC and Big South was to give those leagues equal opportunity. I seem to remember the PFL being pretty competitive with the NEC when they met in the Gridiron Classic and the NEC has held its own in the playoffs the past two years.

[BisonFan02]

Miami $25,604,474.00
EMU $24,635,531.00
Akron $24,498,336.00
CMU $24,104,699.00
WMU $23,233,399.00
Ohio $22,875,238.00
NIU $21,899,024.00
Toledo $20,021,956.00
Kent $19,446,680.00
BGSU $17,850,240.00
Ball State $17,347,944.00
Buffalo $16,973,585.00

NDSU $ 14,261,707.00

Yes I realize this is 2010 data (what I could find quick on a google search for the MAC). How about we just get the SHAC done first? Slow your roll. If you are so hell bent on being in the FBS, you have an FBS cupcake in your backyard to root for. Don't let the door hit you on the way out. The FCS product continues to improve, and I'm happy NDSU is having success at this level. Let's continue that.

[BisonFan02]

Somehow my quote got deleted, but I imagine everyone can figure out who it was geared towards.

[MplsBison]

Can't speak for other FCS programs but few, if any, MAC programs have FB revenues & expenses exceeding Delaware's. The NCAA doesn't cap revenues or expenses for FCS schools and, by the same token, the MAC doesn't impose mimimums on expenses or revenues. A school, regardless of the subdivision, is capable of spending and taking in as much money as they want to/are capable of accumulating.

Honest question, how do the coaches' salaries at Delaware compare to MAC programs? I actually don't know the answer and don't want to look it up myself.

[henfan]

Honest question, how do the coaches' salaries at Delaware compare to MAC programs? I actually don't know the answer and don't want to look it up myself.

Keeler makes just over $300K with incentives. Don't have the interest to look up the salaries of MAC coaches.

[UNH Fanboi]

Honest question, how do the coaches' salaries at Delaware compare to MAC programs? I actually don't know the answer and don't want to look it up myself.

Look here:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/2010-coaches-contracts-table.htm

[superman7515]

Honest question, how do the coaches' salaries at Delaware compare to MAC programs? I actually don't know the answer and don't want to look it up myself.

Keeler's salary from July 2008 to June 2009 was $310,662 not including bonuses with an additional $74,678 in non-taxable benefits and deferred compensation. I'm sure it's gone up since then as part of his contract, if only nominally. That puts his total compensation before bonuses at $385,340. Using the link UNH Fanboi provided, that was more than any MAC team except Ohio and Temple. I don't know Mickey Matthews' contract situation, but I know JMU as well as Delaware had an athletics budget that was as high or higher than most MAC schools.

[MplsBison]

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for the info.

Ultimately, the point is that NDSU will need the FBS level to keep growing its football brand. That's the simple bottom line.

NDSU is just about maxed out at the FCS level. What I mean is that even if they won the next 5 national championships at the FCS level -- so what?

Bohl will still be making around $300k, we'll still have around 10k season ticket holders and around 18k average attendance.

Obviously that has a lot to do with the capacity limits of the Fargodome.


But NDSU will never get a new stadium staying at the FCS level.


The only way it's going to get to 30k average attendance, 20k season ticket holders and $500k head coach's salary is via the FBS.

Fargo and North Dakota/western Minn can support those numbers.

[henfan]

Ultimately, the point is that NDSU will need the FBS level to keep growing its football brand. That's the simple bottom line.

The bottom line is the bottom line. Unless NDSU can find a way to make the dollars work, they are probably not ever going to make a run at FB reclassification.

Man, I can see that you're jacked up on the vapors of a championships season but my recommendation would be to temper your enthusiasm with a health dose of reality. Stop and smell the roses and enjoy the terrific D-I FB program the Bison is building because reclassification doesn't appear to be coming anytime soon.

All of the following elements have to be in place before NDSU can even consider making a run at it: 1) institutional desire & commitment, 2) a fanbase with a demonstrated ability to support FBS FB and increased athletic expenses (double your season-ticket FB fanbase & you'll be approaching what would be needed), and 3) FBS quality facilities for all sports (in other words, a much improved, larger FB stadium). But even with all of these things in place, there's no guarantee that NDSU could sustain a financially & competitively successful FBS FB program & AD. NDSU would then be at the mercy of an FBS conference to offer them membership.

If NDSU can find the resources to invest in a real 30K-40K-seat football stadium, manage to grow its fanbase like App State and Montana have, and begin serious fundraising for an eventual reclassification, this conversation might begin to make sense. Not until then, though, in the words of Debbie Harry, "dreaming is free".

[darell1976]

Ok, fair enough. Thanks for the info.

Ultimately, the point is that NDSU will need the FBS level to keep growing its football brand. That's the simple bottom line.

NDSU is just about maxed out at the FCS level. What I mean is that even if they won the next 5 national championships at the FCS level -- so what?

Bohl will still be making around $300k, we'll still have around 10k season ticket holders and around 18k average attendance.

Obviously that has a lot to do with the capacity limits of the Fargodome.


But NDSU will never get a new stadium staying at the FCS level.


The only way it's going to get to 30k average attendance, 20k season ticket holders and $500k head coach's salary is via the FBS.

Fargo and North Dakota/western Minn can support those numbers.

You forgot more important issues going on in Fargo ahead of a new "football" stadium. #1. Flood diversion. I think people will cry out for this before there is a chance of a new stadium. #2 BSA that project is still trying to get money. I think that goes up before a new stadium is in the thinking process. I see NDSU going FBS maybe 20 years. If we get into a drought the thought of the diversion may take a backseat to a football stadium but then you have the BSA, and NDSU wants a better basketball arena than a new football stadium.

Then you have to figure out what kind of stadium. Outdoor or indoor? Outdoor nice in Septmember and maybe most of October, but snowstorms, and bitterly cold wind chills may keep fans at home. Indoor you are limited to attendance just like now. Then what to do with the current Fargodome and the location for the new stadium? On campus, off campus? 20 years the FBS may have a playoff and NDSU may want to wait then.

[FCSbuff319]

You forgot more important issues going on in Fargo ahead of a new "football" stadium. #1. Flood diversion. I think people will cry out for this before there is a chance of a new stadium. #2 BSA that project is still trying to get money. I think that goes up before a new stadium is in the thinking process. I see NDSU going FBS maybe 20 years. If we get into a drought the thought of the diversion may take a backseat to a football stadium but then you have the BSA, and NDSU wants a better basketball arena than a new football stadium.

Then you have to figure out what kind of stadium. Outdoor or indoor? Outdoor nice in Septmember and maybe most of October, but snowstorms, and bitterly cold wind chills may keep fans at home. Indoor you are limited to attendance just like now. Then what to do with the current Fargodome and the location for the new stadium? On campus, off campus? 20 years the FBS may have a playoff and NDSU may want to wait then.

Common sense doesn't work darell. When NDSU goes FBS, they will just need to snap their fingers and a new stadium will be built along with hundreds of millions of dollars in resources for everything else. This will all happen instantly.

[darell1976]

Common sense doesn't work darell. When NDSU goes FBS, they will just need to snap their fingers and a new stadium will be built along with hundreds of millions of dollars in resources for everything else. This will all happen instantly.

Unless you go to a BCS conference I wouldn't want my team heading to the FBS. So you can end up like Boise State..all those years so close but because of the BCS BS they never got a shot at a national title. Until there is a playoff system the FCS is the best place to be.

[Go Lehigh TU Owl]

The PL won't be a 1 bid league for much longer!! The SoCon, CAA and MVFC fans will be complaining shortly.

[henfan]

The PL won't be a 1 bid league for much longer!! The SoCon, CAA and MVFC fans will be complaining shortly.

You're right about one thing. Playoff expansion just may translate into a regular PL at-large bid. There will likely be no complaints from CAA fans though, as expansion will mean that an additional juicebox will be handed out to yet one more CAA team with a so-so record. Got to love the NCAA's burning desire to reward regular season mediocrity.

[MTfan4life]

The PL won't be a 1 bid league for much longer!! The SoCon, CAA and MVFC fans will be complaining shortly.

By the time the Patriot League gets to 60 scholarships, the playoffs will probably be expanded to 24 teams. I doubt there will be too much complaining about teams not getting in even during the years the Patriot might get multiple bids.

[ursus arctos horribilis]

You're right about one thing. Playoff expansion just may translate into a regular PL at-large bid. There will likely be no complaints from CAA fans though, as expansion will mean that an additional juicebox will be handed out to yet one more CAA team with a so-so record. Got to love the NCAA's burning desire to reward regular season mediocrity.

You will see the BSC taking up more than two I would think so it may not mean a big uptik for the CAA on a consistent basis. I can't think of a year when the CAA got bids that they weren't good teams deserving of a shot so if that's mediocrity then I'm fine with it.