Victor Cruz

[UMass922]

The former UMass receiver (undrafted) just completed a spectacular regular season, probably the best ever by a UMass player in the NFL. (The only other contender is probably Greg Landry, who made the Pro Bowl as the Lions' QB in 1971. He was well before my time, though.)

Cruz finished third in the NFL in receiving yards behind just Calvin Johnson and Wes Welker; his 1,536 yards were a franchise record.

I don't like rooting for New York teams, but I'll definitely be rooting for Victor and the Giants to come out of the NFC (sorry, still have to root for the Pats to win the whole thing). Anyway, congrats to Victor on his extraordinary success! xnodx

A couple articles from ESPN and SI:

http://espn.go.com/blog/new-york/giants/post/_/id/10291/victor-cruzes-into-the-record-books

http://nfl.si.com/2012/01/02/victor-cruz-continues-rise-to-stardom/

[TheValleyRaider]

CRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUZ!
http://media.nj.com/giants_fan_blog/photo/cruz-salsa-dancejpg-e76d7eda00aab3d2.jpg

[Cleets]

He made the Cowboys look SLOW...
That guy is going to have a career

[steelbison]

What a STUD!!! Has a great career ahead of him. Wish him the best!!!

[blukeys]

The former UMass receiver (undrafted) just completed a spectacular regular season, probably the best ever by a UMass player in the NFL. (The only other contender is probably Greg Landry, who made the Pro Bowl as the Lions' QB in 1971. He was well before my time, though.)


[/url]

I saw Landry play against Delaware in Newark. As is typical we kicked his ***.

That being said, best of playoff luck to Cruz for the Giants, Colston for the Saints and I still don't get why Joe Flacco gets no love on this board. Flacco has more wins in his first four seasons than any previous NFL quarterback. Instead we get non stop threads on Armanti Edwards who can't find his way on the field on a lousy team. Go figure.

[Cleets]

I saw Landry play against Delaware in Newark. As is typical we kicked his ***.

That being said, best of playoff luck to Cruz for the Giants, Colston for the Saints and I still don't get why Joe Flacco gets no love on this board. Flacco has more wins in his first four seasons than any previous NFL quarterback. Instead we get non stop threads on Armanti Edwards who can't find his way on the field on a lousy team. Go figure.

Not sure about the Armanti thing - but - the Flacco thing is probably because he's had the number one (or two) ranked defensed in the NFL (his entire career) and he has Ray Rice the Number 2 running back in the NFL (his entire career) and Flacco can't seem to muster a QB passer rating above the 80's

BUT: His team does win games..!!! (and then lose to the Seahawks)
So he's not exactly hurting the Ravens - He gets about all the attention he deserves just like Ryan Fitzpatrick of the Bills

[MR. CHICKEN]

16376...FUNNY THING...OL' VICTOR....USED TA JES'...HAND ZEEBS...DUH OINKY...AFTERAH SCORE...IN CAA CIRCUIT....:(...AWK!

[MR. CHICKEN]

Not sure about the Armanti thing - but - the Flacco thing is probably because he's had the number one (or two) ranked defensed in the NFL (his entire career) and he has Ray Rice the Number 2 running back in the NFL (his entire career) and Flacco can't seem to muster a QB passer rating above the 80's

BUT: His team does win games..!!! (and then lose to the Seahawks)
So he's not exactly hurting the Ravens - He gets about all the attention he deserves just like Ryan Fitzpatrick of the Bills

16377.....LET US NOT...FO'GET.......DUH OVERAH 35....CROWD.....SET UH RECEIVERS....HE WAS TOSSIN' OINKIES TO...IN HIS EARLY YEARS....OH YEAH...&...EDGAR ALLEN POE...CUDDAH WROTE UP...UH REAL SCAREY ONE.... BASED ON HIS.....O-LINE...xeekx...........BRAWK!

[HenZoneNation]

Not sure about the Armanti thing - but - the Flacco thing is probably because he's had the number one (or two) ranked defensed in the NFL (his entire career) and he has Ray Rice the Number 2 running back in the NFL (his entire career) and Flacco can't seem to muster a QB passer rating above the 80's

BUT: His team does win games..!!! (and then lose to the Seahawks)
So he's not exactly hurting the Ravens - He gets about all the attention he deserves just like Ryan Fitzpatrick of the Bills

Clearly you haven't watched the Ravens the last three years. Before this season they were a pretty good day that rested on what they'd done in the past. They blew plenty of leads (ATl with a minute left and the Pitt playoff game) to name a few. They are very good this year though. Joe is playing on a team where his two top WR's are in the top 5 for dropped balls and his top TE is in the top 10 in dropped balls. Add to the fact that they have no LT, I'd say even on a down year for him that he is getting little help. The Ravens need to get him a legit #1 receiver. Draft him a Julio Jones and you'll see some fireworks.

[Cleets]

Clearly you haven't watched the Ravens the last three years. Before this season they were a pretty good day that rested on what they'd done in the past. They blew plenty of leads (ATl with a minute left and the Pitt playoff game) to name a few. They are very good this year though. Joe is playing on a team where his two top WR's are in the top 5 for dropped balls and his top TE is in the top 10 in dropped balls. Add to the fact that they have no LT, I'd say even on a down year for him that he is getting little help. The Ravens need to get him a legit #1 receiver. Draft him a Julio Jones and you'll see some fireworks.

Actually I have seen many Ravens games and Flacco is a an average NFL QB (see proof) http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING click on ANY stat category and Flacco comes up in the middle
Again - He's had THE best defense in the entire league
and The second best running back in the entire league

Yeah he is among the MANY QB's who could use a wide out or two and a better O-line but aren't those two things on EVEY quarterbacks wish list..?
I mean what QB doesn't want those things - so instead of that fairytale stuff lets just stick with the facts as they stand...
which are as follows: Joey Flacco is a fine NFL quality QB - somewhere in the middle of the pack - the end

[blukeys]

Actually I have seen many Ravens games and Flacco is a an average NFL QB (see proof) http://www.nfl.com/stats/categorystats?tabSeq=0&statisticCategory=PASSING click on ANY stat category and Flacco comes up in the middle
Again - He's had THE best defense in the entire league
and The second best running back in the entire league

Yeah he is among the MANY QB's who could use a wide out or two and a better O-line but aren't those two things on EVEY quarterbacks wish list..?
I mean what QB doesn't want those things - so instead of that fairytale stuff lets just stick with the facts as they stand...
which are as follows: Joey Flacco is a fine NFL quality QB - somewhere in the middle of the pack - the end

Again Cleets displays his total bias. Flacco has a whole new set of receivers with Torrey Smith and The non factor Evans. Cleets ignores the fact that Baltimore receivers have been dropping perfectly thrown passes left and right.

Ray Rice only emerged as as the great back that he is after Joe's first 2 years as a QB. In that time Joe took the Ravens to the playoffs in his first two years as a starter.

Anyone care to mention what was the record of the Ravens in the years prior to Joe Flacco being drafted by Baltimore? I guess if anyone can win with the Baltimore defense they should have done so before Flacco arriving with the Ravens.

The facts are this. Joe Flacco has the most wins of any starting quarterback for his first 4 years as a QB. Cleets is just a typical Delaware hater who cannot contain himself.

[Cleets]

Again Cleets displays his total bias. Flacco has a whole new set of receivers with Torrey Smith and The non factor Evans. Cleets ignores the fact that Baltimore receivers have been dropping perfectly thrown passes left and right.

Ray Rice only emerged as as the great back that he is after Joe's first 2 years as a QB. In that time Joe took the Ravens to the playoffs in his first two years as a starter.

Anyone care to mention what was the record of the Ravens in the years prior to Joe Flacco being drafted by Baltimore? I guess if anyone can win with the Baltimore defense they should have done so before Flacco arriving with the Ravens.

The facts are this. Joe Flacco has the most wins of any starting quarterback for his first 4 years as a QB. Cleets is just a typical Delaware hater who cannot contain himself.

Dude...
You wish I hated Delaware - then you could dismiss what I'm saying - I actually kinda like the Ravens in fact I love them beating Pittsburgh and have cheered for the Ravens many times
All I'm doing is looking at THE NFL FACTS and trying not to apply any personal opinion
Have you reviewed the facts that are provided for all to examine..?
I already agreed with you Joey Flacco and the Ravens win games..!!! (and I said he's not hurting the Ravens)
But the published games statistics and seasonal FACTS stand - he's an Average NFL QB
Average NFL quarterbacks are VERY difficult to acquire - the Buffalo Bills we so thrilled to have Ryan Fitzpatrick (Another Average NFL QB) they paid him $50 million dollars
I'm not insulting Flacco - I'm just looking at this logically

[asumike83]

Flacco is definitely a solid NFL starting QB and is making FCS fans proud. However, there really is no rationale to claim he is any better than slightly above average by NFL standards. He plays the hardest position in the most competitive league in the world. His teammates love him, the team wins and he has a cannon for an arm, all of which have earned him praise. It's not exactly an insult to say he's not a top 10 QB in the NFL. He is right in the middle of the pack. I do not think being one of the 15-16 best QB's in the world (aside from unproven prospects) is anything to sneeze at.

[Cleets]

Flacco is definitely a solid NFL starting QB and is making FCS fans proud. However, there really is no rationale to claim he is any better than slightly above average by NFL standards. He plays the hardest position in the most competitive league in the world. His teammates love him, the team wins and he has a cannon for an arm, all of which have earned him praise. It's not exactly an insult to say he's not a top 10 QB in the NFL. He is right in the middle of the pack. I do not think being one of the 15-16 best QB's in the world (aside from unproven prospects) is anything to sneeze at.

I completely agree with this statement ^ above...
Well said

[HenZoneNation]

Joe had an above average year this year this year, but well below what he'd done the previous two years. He's young and raw. I can remember on draft day McShay comparing Matt Ryan to Joe Flacco. He said Matt Ryan was more NFL ready coming at of college and that it would take Joe a solid 5 years to get up to speed. But that Joe had morew tools. Stronger arm more mobilty. Well up until about 6 weeks ago when Matt Ryan went on his tear, their stats were identical. And if we compare what the Falcons have done to surround him vs what the Ravens have done...it's night and day. I can't count how many 60+ yard td's they have by receivers making plays. Never happens on the Ravens. They don't have a Julio Jones/Victor Cruz (both of whom are #2 receivers for their teams) to get those huge plays.

Truth is, we won't know how good he is for another few years, but even the Raven fan base who want to hate Joe for some unknown reason are starting see that they don't hvae the playmakers. You can't make receivers get open or cathc the ball.

[Cleets]

Joe had an above average year this year this year, but well below what he'd done the previous two years. He's young and raw. I can remember on draft day McShay comparing Matt Ryan to Joe Flacco. He said Matt Ryan was more NFL ready coming at of college and that it would take Joe a solid 5 years to get up to speed. But that Joe had morew tools. Stronger arm more mobilty. Well up until about 6 weeks ago when Matt Ryan went on his tear, their stats were identical. And if we compare what the Falcons have done to surround him vs what the Ravens have done...it's night and day. I can't count how many 60+ yard td's they have by receivers making plays. Never happens on the Ravens. They don't have a Julio Jones/Victor Cruz (both of whom are #2 receivers for their teams) to get those huge plays.

Truth is, we won't know how good he is for another few years, but even the Raven fan base who want to hate Joe for some unknown reason are starting see that they don't hvae the playmakers. You can't make receivers get open or cathc the ball.

Here's all anybody needs to know about the Ravens and Flacco
Are the Ravens looking for a new QB - answer - Hell No
Done

The kid has everything a team needs to win games (period) and I agree if they add another skill player for him he'll probably do even better
Here's a little test for anybody who's interested...
Below are all of the starting NFL QB's ranked by Passer Rating
Here's the key I think to looking at this list
The top ten guys are pretty solid - with a few exceptions - example: I'd take Flacco over Romo any day
The Middle Ten guys anybodies pick favoring one over the other - But I think Maybe Andy Dalton I'd take over Flacco as well as Cam Newton
The bottom ten - are the bottom ten and there isn't a guy in there I'd take over flacco (except Maybe Sam Bradford, he's got a huge upside)

Aaron Rodgers GB
Drew Brees NO
Tom Brady NE
Tony Romo DAL
Matthew Stafford DET
Matt Schaub HOU
Eli Manning NYG
Matt Ryan ATL
Alex Smith SF
Ben Roethlisberger PIT
.................................................. ........

Philip Rivers SD
Matt Moore MIA
Jay Cutler CHI
Michael Vick PHI
Cam Newton CAR
Matt Hasselbeck TEN
Kevin Kolb ARI
Joe Flacco BAL
Carson Palmer OAK
Andy Dalton CIN
.................................................. ...........

Tarvaris Jackson SEA
Ryan Fitzpatrick BUF
Mark Sanchez NYJ
Matt Cassel KC
Josh Freeman TB
Colt McCoy CLE
Tim Tebow DEN
Rex Grossman WAS
Sam Bradford STL
Christian Ponder MIN
John Skelton ARI
Curtis Painter IND
Blaine Gabbert JAC

[HenZoneNation]

Cleets,

First off...love your argument, love that you created a list, and I love that the discussion. This is the reason I go on boards like this. You get to talk football with people you would never have met otherwise. It's obvious that you know your football and I'm glad we have gotten the chance to discuss...I look forward to future debates; or maybe one day we might even agree... :) Either way this is fun. You're a good dude.

I think first off, my definition of an average QB and your might be different. To me, an average QB is a serveable guy who doesn't lose or win games and who a team, if given the right oppurtunity, would replace. To use the Ravens as example, Trent Dilfer was an average QB. Didn't turn the ball over, managed the game, and allowed his defense to win the SB. Joe isn't that. Even in a down year, and this was a down year, he's won games and he is their franchise QB. As critical as NFL experts can be, they pretty much all agree that he falls into that second tier of (the Schaubs, Ryans, Cutlers) but that he is still a top notch, not average QB. The Ravens would replace him if he was. Their D is getting old and it's win now or start rebuilding. So for me, though he isn't top ten, there is little to no distinction between him and the 10-15 range QB's. Forget stats for a moment and consider that he plays in a divison wher all 3 teams in his confernce are tops in either total Defense or Pass defense. As bad as the Browns were, their pass defense was very, very good. The other two teams are in the playoffs with great defenses (Steelers were #1 overall I believe). He doesn't play in a Dome, and he wins games for them...just ask Pitt this year.

As far as your list...Many of the top guys I agree with....I would take Smith, Stafford, and Ryan out of the top tier and put Rivers back in. Rivers has been great year in and year out, one bad year shouldn't shake him anymore than Stafford and Smith having one good year should allow them in. Stafford in his 3 years has had one good season. He could be great, or he could get injured (like Bradford) on the first snap next year and be done. I like him, but he needs to do that year in and year out. Alex Smith statistically had a worse year than Joe this year and went they went head to head, Joe defeated him so I don't understand that point. His 3,144 Yars is the most he's ever had in a season (first time he's ever cracked 3,000). Joe has only had one season with fewer than 3,000 yards (his rookie season) and he missed it by 19 yards after being taken out in 3rd quarter of the last game of the season tyo protect him for the playoffs. Matt Ryan...there is a media love affair with him. Take his stats and throw them out the window. He plays in a Dome in at least 9 games a year. His team this year, they beat 2 TEAMS with WINNING RECORDS. His schedule was a joke...he has yet to win a playoff game and cost his team twice in the playoffs. His stats coming into this year, before they traded the franchise for Julio Jones, were below Joe's in yards, ints, completion %, and passer rating. In the last 8 games his stats have distanced themselves from Joe, but his weapons are off the chart. His rb had 1,300 yards, he has two #1 receivers, and the greatest TE in the history of the NFL.

I would also disagree with Matt Moore (he won't be starting next year), Kolb (who is a disaster and will be replaced by another FCS QB JS) Cutler, who had a good year but last year was a train wreck (he has an arguement though...his receivers might be worse than Joe's), Carson Plamer and Andy Dalton aren't even close. Hasselback is old and won't be starting next year. Vick...who knows...either he's elite or a bust. I would however put both Freeman and Bradford in this equation. I know Freeman had a bad year, but he has a bad line and nobody to through to. Bradford got hurt and I'd like to see what he does with Lloyd next year. Newton is a beast.

Last point...I want you to look at all this QB's and say how many have won a playoff game. I know the first two years Joe just handed the ball off, but last year he did his part. Romo, stafford, schaub, Ryan, Smith, Moore, Cutler, Newton, Kolb...if you combine all their playoff wins...Joe has 4 wins than all of them combined...just saying..

You the man dude

[blukeys]

Nice idea of the rankings Cleets. While I like Tony Romo as a QB (He is an FCS guy) I think he is overrated or it might be more accurate to say that Dallas is overrated.

I don't think anyone should rank any QB above Brees, Rogers, and Brady. Their ratings are high but in the end their record of winning means more than anything else.

Regarding Flacco and this year is that he has had a receiver corps that has had a ton of drops of well thrown passes. This has effected Joe's QB ratings. Torrey Smith and Ed Dickson are both going to be factors in this league. They replaced Derrick Mason and Todd Heap respectively who never dropped anything even if the the defender was draped on their backs. Smith and Dickson have not been so lucky.

I look at the ratings in this light. That and the fact that with the lockout Joe Flacco had very little time to workout with his new receivers once the Ravens released Mason and Heap. These were Joe's 2 favorite receivers.

In terms of rating skills I consider Joe Flacco to be in the category of Jay Cutler and Phillip Rivers in terms of arm strength. No one throws the deep 10 to 15 yard out pattern than Joe. This includes the Manning brothers although they are close. This is part of the reason Joe Flacco extended the Derrick Mason Career.

Until Matt Ryan actually wins a playoff game I don't get why he is in the Joe Flacco conversation. Four playoff wins vs. zero playoff wins?

Kevin Kolb, please Andy Reed robbed Arizona blind.

Cam Newton, He may be the real deal. He is a first round pick on a bad team. He coud be great or the next Tavaris Jackson.

Can anyone imagine a GM agreeing to trade Flacco for Matt Moore????

How about Matt Hassellback. And anyone who watched the most recent performance of Andy Dalton who wants him over Flacco, well please let me know what you are drinking because I want to buy some of that.

[asumike83]

Cam Newton, He may be the real deal. He is a first round pick on a bad team. He coud be great or the next Tavaris Jackson.

Agree with most of what you said... except this. Tarvaris Jackson has been in the league for 6 years. This year he was the full-time guy for the first time and put up his best career passer rating of any season with 150+ attempts and easily the most total yards of his career. This was, in every aspect, a career year for Jackson. It was Cam's rookie year with a strike-shortened off-season on a rebuilding team and he had 1,000 more passing yards than Jackson, 7 more passing TD's, 13 more rushing TD's and more rushing yards than Jackson has accumulated in his entire career. Newton accounted for 35 TD's this season, Jackson has accounted for 43 since coming into the NFL in 2006.

I know you were not comparing them and were only using Jackson's name to make a point but in this case, Cam has already earned the right to not be mentioned in the same breath as a guy like that. He had arguably the best rookie season of any QB in the last 30 years and has already done more than Jackson has in 6 years. I will be totally honest and admit that I though Newton was a project when we drafted him. I expected it to be 2-3 years before he was an impact player but after watching him play in person a few times this year I can say with confidence, this kid is the real deal. He made his share of rookie mistakes and turned the ball over too much but he is here to stay. As he learns the NFL game and gets an entire summer to work with his teammates, he should be a much more polished player next year and that is scary.

[clenz]

Jackson's career year was still ****, and will always be ****. He is a **** qb.....I'm glad the Vikings got rid of him. Webb or Ponder will do well for the Vikings.

[asumike83]

If you guys do not read the Sports Pickle, you should. It is pretty hilarious.

Hopefully the Flacco fans have a sense of humor:
http://www.sportspickle.com/news/9455/joe-flacco-confident-he-has-what-it-takes-to-knock-the-ravens-out-of-the-playoffs-again

[MR. CHICKEN]

16403.....JOE HAS PLAYED 12 GAMES...AGIN' TOP 10 DEFENSES...SO FAR DIS SEASON........DROPS/SACKS...AN' YEAH...MISCUES/MISFIRES........SCREW STATS.......W'S.....WAT IT IS...xnodx...BRAWK!

LET US NOT..FO'GET VICTOR'S..5 GRABS.....75 YDS.........UH HEADACHE...FO' DUH PACK.....FREED UP HAKEEM'S...7 SNATCHES...165..YDS....O' FROZEN TUNDRA...2 TD'S......AWK!

[Cleets]

Agree with most of what you said... except this. Tarvaris Jackson has been in the league for 6 years. This year he was the full-time guy for the first time and put up his best career passer rating of any season with 150+ attempts and easily the most total yards of his career. This was, in every aspect, a career year for Jackson. It was Cam's rookie year with a strike-shortened off-season on a rebuilding team and he had 1,000 more passing yards than Jackson, 7 more passing TD's, 13 more rushing TD's and more rushing yards than Jackson has accumulated in his entire career. Newton accounted for 35 TD's this season, Jackson has accounted for 43 since coming into the NFL in 2006.

I know you were not comparing them and were only using Jackson's name to make a point but in this case, Cam has already earned the right to not be mentioned in the same breath as a guy like that. He had arguably the best rookie season of any QB in the last 30 years and has already done more than Jackson has in 6 years. I will be totally honest and admit that I though Newton was a project when we drafted him. I expected it to be 2-3 years before he was an impact player but after watching him play in person a few times this year I can say with confidence, this kid is the real deal. He made his share of rookie mistakes and turned the ball over too much but he is here to stay. As he learns the NFL game and gets an entire summer to work with his teammates, he should be a much more polished player next year and that is scary.

This ^ +1

[UMass922]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/02/victor_cruz_superbowl_trophy.jpg

[HailSzczur]

From an ESPN article I read

Eleven undrafted free agents started in the Super Bowl, versus 10 first-round draft choices. Undrafted Chase Blackburn made the game's most important play; Blackburn wasn't even on an NFL roster this season until Thanksgiving. Undrafted Victor Cruz from Division I-AA Massachusetts scored a touchdown, undrafted Danny Woodhead from Division II Chadron State scored a touchdown. No first-round draft choice scored a touchdown

Congrats to all the FCS superbowl champs this year:
Ramses Barden, Cal Poly
Kevin Boothe, Cornell
Victor Cruz, UMass
Zak DeOssie, Brown
Brandon Jacobs, So. Illinois

And congrats on a great season to:
Kyle Arrington, Hofstra
Dan Connolly, SEMO
Dane Fletcher, Montana St
James Ihedigbo, UMass
Antwaun Molden, EKU
Tracy White, Howard

[Cleets]

From an ESPN article I read


Congrats to all the FCS superbowl champs this year:
Ramses Barden, Cal Poly
Kevin Boothe, Cornell
Victor Cruz, UMass
Zak DeOssie, Brown
Brandon Jacobs, So. Illinois

And congrats on a great season to:
Kyle Arrington, Hofstra
Dan Connolly, SEMO
Dane Fletcher, Montana St
James Ihedigbo, UMass
Antwaun Molden, EKU
Tracy White, Howard

You forgot Dan Carpenter and Marc Mariani both went to the Pro Bowl

[UMass922]

You forgot Dan Carpenter and Marc Mariani both went to the Pro Bowl

I think he was referring specifically to FCS players on the Patriots.

[HailSzczur]

I think he was referring specifically to FCS players on the Patriots.

That's what I was going for yeah, but that is also very impressive as well Cleets

[MTfan4life]

You forgot Dan Carpenter and Marc Mariani both went to the Pro Bowl

Is this a joke post, Cleets, or are you living in the past? Mariani made last year's pro bowl team and Carpenter was in it the year before that. Neither were there this season.

[Cleets]

Is this a joke post, Cleets, or are you living in the past? Mariani made last year's pro bowl team and Carpenter was in it the year before that. Neither were there this season.


xshhhx shhh....





xawesomex
Oh and Dave Dickenson won the Super Bowl (Gray Cup) same thing

[Grizalltheway]

xshhhx shhh....





xawesomex
Oh and Dave Dickenson won the Super Bowl (Gray Cup) same thing

As did the red headed step-child from Bozeman.

[Cleets]

As did the red headed step-child from Bozeman.

Wait... Bozeman has a football team..?



xdontknowx

[BEARKAT09]

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/sites/default/files/2012/02/victor_cruz_superbowl_trophy.jpg

+1