LFN: Final Patriot and Ivy Thoughts on the Year

[Lehigh Football Nation]

http://lehighfootballnation.blogspot.com/2011/12/final-ivy-and-patriot-thoughts-on-year.html

A bit of a hodge-podge of thoughts on the Patriot League president's meeting, the NCAA legislation that may be upended, and the "Ivy League advantage" in recruiting - that sure didn't seem much of one in football.

[carney2]

A good read, as always, LFN. Thank you for your service.

I find it odd that you did not mention the 500 pound gorilla in that room with the PL presidents: football scholarships! I suspect that there was nothing about it in the press announcements, but I also suspect that it was THE main topic of conversation. Scuttlebutt, leaks and reliable sources tell us that it's a done deal, with the official pronouncement to be issued in June of 2012 and implementation to follow with the next (2013) recruiting class. Do you have anything on this?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

A good read, as always, LFN. Thank you for your service.

I find it odd that you did not mention the 500 pound gorilla in that room with the PL presidents: football scholarships! I suspect that there was nothing about it in the press announcements, but I also suspect that it was THE main topic of conversation. Scuttlebutt, leaks and reliable sources tell us that it's a done deal, with the official pronouncement to be issued in June of 2012 and implementation to follow with the next (2013) recruiting class. Do you have anything on this?

I have a lot of heat but no light as of yet. Lots of circumstantial stuff but no solid indicators yet that it might happen. I'll try to round up the usual suspects soon about it.

[DFW HOYA]

I'll write more about this soon, but let's be clear--the PL is not adopting true football scholarships, inasmuch as six of the seven schools will offer merit aid to applicants..but only those deemed admittable under the (Ivy) Academic Index.

Put another way, the Patriot League will be the only Div. I football conference where the offer of a full atheltic grant is not an offer of admission. The PL will not be part of the National Letter of Intent program for that very reason.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Put another way, the Patriot League will be the only Div. I football conference where the offer of a full atheltic grant is not an offer of admission. The PL will not be part of the National Letter of Intent program for that very reason.

In the past, with a "one Ivy" policy, a "likely letter" had a certain meaning, but with many of these kids getting, in effect, full rides (whether from grants-in-aid, uber-benevolent overall aid policies, or football scholarships), how is a likely letter different than an LOI? Whether in farthings, pence, or pounds, it's still the same overall value.

[DFW HOYA]

In the past, with a "one Ivy" policy, a "likely letter" had a certain meaning, but with many of these kids getting, in effect, full rides (whether from grants-in-aid, uber-benevolent overall aid policies, or football scholarships), how is a likely letter different than an LOI? Whether in farthings, pence, or pounds, it's still the same overall value.

Per its web site (points of emphasis added in bold), "The NLI is a binding agreement between a prospective student-athlete and an NLI member institution. A prospective student-athlete agrees to attend the institution full-time for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters). The institution agrees to provide athletics financial aid for one academic year (two semesters or three quarters)."

The likely letter does not commit the school to offer admission nor to offer full financial aid. Conversely, the prospective student-athlete is under no obligation to accept a likely letter from one school and end all subsequent recruiting efforts, as the NLI does.

A student is not "committed" to an Ivy/PL school until he is accepted and actually enrolls--at an NLI school, he is immediately committed (and accepted) upon signing the document. It's the athletic equivalent of an "early decision" school--if accepted, you will attend. By contrast, every PL schools can send a likely letter to the same recruit, but if he sends in a deposit to Yale, that's where he's going.

[Sader87]

Once again, I can't tell you enough how much I loathe this league.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The likely letter does not commit the school to offer admission nor to offer full financial aid. Conversely, the prospective student-athlete is under no obligation to accept a likely letter from one school and end all subsequent recruiting efforts, as the NLI does.

I get the fact that the likely letter is "less binding", but I do disagree that it doesn't commit the school to offer financial aid. The financial aid is now given due to criteria independent of the process, so it's not tied to athletics. And has a kid ever received one of these and then all of a sudden the school has played "gotcha!" and denied them admission? It's called "likely letter" for a reason - they are damned likely to be admitted, certainly more so than other students waiting for their acceptance letters.

As financial aid has increased, especially from the top Ivies, the likely letters have been looking a lot more like NLIs, and no matter what is said about them, work like such in practice. Like much in the Ivy realm, it seems like clinging to old fictions.

[RichH2]

The likely letter ,while similar in some surface aspects to the LOI in the recruiting process, does not have the same legal effect. It merely states the liklihood of a specific athlete's admission to a school, thereby entitling him or her to the same financial aid as other students. It does not bind the applicant to attend nor are there any consequences if the recruit switches to another school. Likewise, the school is not bound to actually admit the recruit nor are there any consequences if it fails to do so. It is merely a notification of intent not a binding contract

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Another missing aspect to this "likely letter/LOI" thing is the relatively new phenomenon that kids are having "signing day parties" at the schools and going on the public record as saying that they are "committing" to certain schools, which include Ivies and PL schools using the "likely letters". "Legal effect" or not, the truth is most of the kids who sign these things end up going to the schools, with only a very, very small minority that do not for one reason or another. And if they do, the kids can still change, but in an increasingly interconnected world, they'll hear about it.

Here's a better question: if the intent is to have it work like other students, well then, why not say the PL and Ivy are not going to be a part of the system - be ideologically pure? The answer is simple - in a world where many other students are committing on "signing day", being ideologically pure puts the PL and Ivy at a competitive disadvantage, for a school could swoop up and take a particularly good recruit after signing day, leaving the PL and Ivy with the remainder of the kids after all the "scholarship schools" fill out their rosters, in theory.

So we have the "likely letter" - the quintessential Ivy League/PL fudge to preserve a fig leaf of ideological reasoning, while still having the same effect of the LOI in terms of binding kids to the schools. The fact that one is "legally binding" and the other isn't is irrelevant. It something that serves a purpose.

[Southsider]

Once again, I can't tell you enough how much I loathe this league.

.........and most PL posters feel the same about you.............If the Cross was winning titles you'd be singing a different tune. You, like most on the Crossports board, just can't stop living in the past. Get over it.

[RichH2]

Another missing aspect to this "likely letter/LOI" thing is the relatively new phenomenon that kids are having "signing day parties" at the schools and going on the public record as saying that they are "committing" to certain schools, which include Ivies and PL schools using the "likely letters". "Legal effect" or not, the truth is most of the kids who sign these things end up going to the schools, with only a very, very small minority that do not for one reason or another. And if they do, the kids can still change, but in an increasingly interconnected world, they'll hear about it.

Here's a better question: if the intent is to have it work like other students, well then, why not say the PL and Ivy are not going to be a part of the system - be ideologically pure? The answer is simple - in a world where many other students are committing on "signing day", being ideologically pure puts the PL and Ivy at a competitive disadvantage, for a school could swoop up and take a particularly good recruit after signing day, leaving the PL and Ivy with the remainder of the kids after all the "scholarship schools" fill out their rosters, in theory.

So we have the "likely letter" - the quintessential Ivy League/PL fudge to preserve a fig leaf of ideological reasoning, while still having the same effect of the LOI in terms of binding kids to the schools. The fact that one is "legally binding" and the other isn't is irrelevant. It something that serves a purpose.

I concede the "fig leaf" analogy. Quite apt for IL-PL academes. Still smoke and mirrors, not binding on anyone, which in and of itself creates consequences as we are all well aware. All of us have lost recruits to Ivies in April and once in a bluemoon we get one from the Ivies

[Bogus Megapardus]

Once again, I can't tell you enough how much I loathe this league.

Oh, please - do quantify for us, will you Sader87?

[Green26]

From the Ivy league athletic website. The information in the link is worth skimming through too.

"An Ivy coach may both inquire about a candidate's level of commitment to an Ivy institution, or interest in attending that Ivy institution, and encourage that interest. However, a candidate may not be required to make a matriculation commitment, to withdraw other applications, or to refrain from visiting another institution, as a condition for receiving a "likely" letter, or an estimate of financial aid eligibility, or a coach’s support in the admissions process. In addition, coaches may not request that candidates not share estimates of financial aid eligibility with other schools."

http://www.ivyleaguesports.com/information/psa/index

[DFW HOYA]

"An Ivy coach may both inquire about a candidate's level of commitment to an Ivy institution, or interest in attending that Ivy institution, and encourage that interest. However, a candidate may not be required to make a matriculation commitment, to withdraw other applications, or to refrain from visiting another institution, as a condition for receiving a "likely" letter, or an estimate of financial aid eligibility, or a coach’s support in the admissions process. In addition, coaches may not request that candidates not share estimates of financial aid eligibility with other schools."

Which may be fine for H-Y-P, but the PL is the only confernece that seems to follow the rules of another conference as its own.

[RichH2]

I'm not quite so drastic as you DFW. PL has succeeded in creating its own little academic infused controversy. Fueled ,true, in no little part by our start as a convenient non threatening field of opponents created to feed IL egos about how good their football was.Gee, that was nasty. For all that , I stiil enjoy IL games ( wish we could bury the hatchet with Penn),but only if those contests are with an independent PL with its own identity, whatever it may wind up being ,it must be ours not a copy of theirs.
Scholarships will go along way towards cutting the cord from IL .

[Bogus Megapardus]

Which may be fine for H-Y-P, but the PL is the only confernece that seems to follow the rules of another conference as its own.

Again, DFW, read the Patriot League by-laws. We've been in operation for 25 years under the same principles and we were created under an explicit arrangement with Ivy in the first place. We'd have to tear down the league and create a new one in order to do otherwise.

[DetroitFlyer]

By the time a kid and his family commit to a school, there has been a great deal of thought put into the decision. A football player that is good enough to attract interest from the Ivy, PL or PFL always has other options. Most times, those options do not include FBS athletic scholarships.... I wondered about the lack of LOI's in the PFL and how many players change their mind between "committing" and the start of fall practice. We followed it for a few years and discovered that it is pretty rare for top recruits to not show up in the fall. Sometimes a kid will report to a local paper that he has committed to a PFL school. When you ask the coaches, many of these "self reports" might only be offered a walk-on opportunity. Of course some make the team, but others either do not or choose other options. I do not know of any cases of PFL top recruits being poached by other programs. Maybe it is a bit more likely in the Ivy or PL due to the sheer number of teams in the north east, but I really doubt that it is common. I am not saying that maybe H/Y/P do have a better shot at FBS level players than the PL or PFL, but I doubt that very many kids are deciding between full ride, FBS athletic scholarships or the Ivy League. Of the few that might, I also doubt that it has a large impact on the overall level of team play.

[Green26]

Agreed. Few PL/Ivy recruits have FBS schollie or even preferred walk-on opportunities. That wasn't always the case, but it has been since the I-AA level was created. However, a decent number have FCS schollie offers, including some from top level FCS programs. I assume that most who chose Ivy/PL over FBS offers have interest in the academic and reputation aspects of those schools, or some family or similar connection. At the schools I'm familiar with, the only FBS schollies remaining after the early Feb signing day are for needed transfers and occasionally from a recruit who doesn't make grades or backs out. That tends to happen very late in the spring or summer. In the Ivies, they use up the 30 (?) recruits early on in the process, and can look only at recruits already accepted at the school in the normal application process. While it would impact a PL school to lose even one or two good recruits, I doubt that it happens too often. Obviously, the PL posters would know this better than I, as I have zero specific knowledge on this point.

[DFW HOYA]

Again, DFW, read the Patriot League by-laws. We've been in operation for 25 years under the same principles and we were created under an explicit arrangement with Ivy in the first place. We'd have to tear down the league and create a new one in order to do otherwise.

A quick check of the online document found six references to the IL in a preface titled "History of the League" but none within the bylaws themselves.

[Tribe4SF]

This stuff is enough to make your head spin. Frankly, it's just silly. Scholarships do not threaten a schools academic integrity, as the PL has already acknowledged in other sports. If a school is committed to bringing in athletes who reflect the academic profile of the general student body it doesn't need league rules to do so.

W&M returns to playing both the PL, and Ivy next year with Lafayette (surprisingly the first meeting), and Penn on the schedule. It's been since '96, and '95 respectively that those two conferences have faced the Tribe. The student-athletes on the field will have alot in common.

[Ivytalk]

This stuff is enough to make your head spin. Frankly, it's just silly. Scholarships do not threaten a schools academic integrity, as the PL has already acknowledged in other sports. If a school is committed to bringing in athletes who reflect the academic profile of the general student body it doesn't need league rules to do so.

W&M returns to playing both the PL, and Ivy next year with Lafayette (surprisingly the first meeting), and Penn on the schedule. It's been since '96, and '95 respectively that those two conferences have faced the Tribe. The student-athletes on the field will have alot in common.

I miss the Harvard-W&M home-and-homes from the Restic era. The nation's two oldest schools should play each other once in awhile!

[Bogus Megapardus]

I miss the Harvard-W&M home-and-homes from the Restic era. The nation's two oldest schools should play each other once in awhile!

HA! You're stuck with the Maroon Pinata for the time being. :D

Such a shame that Tim Murphy is a former Lafayette assistant . . . .

[DFW HOYA]

I miss the Harvard-W&M home-and-homes from the Restic era. The nation's two oldest schools should play each other once in awhile!

The three games at Williamsburg was the only time Harvard has played outside the Ivy League/New England footprint since the late 1940's. (They're scheduled to visit Washington DC in 2014, another new market for the Cantabs--hope they're not expecting that new stadium...)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

The three games at Williamsburg was the only time Harvard has played outside the Ivy League/New England footprint since the late 1940's. (They're scheduled to visit Washington DC in 2014, another new market for the Cantabs--hope they're not expecting that new stadium...)

That's really interesting. That differs from markedly from Yale and Princeton, who pointedly have played at San Diego, Hampton among other locations.

Penn's another school that has gotten more adventurous, notably with the William & Mary game this year. They also have a long-running series with Villanova as well - the Quakers certainly do not shy away from tough games.

[DFW HOYA]

Harvard routinely played six and seven home games a year into the mid-1970's according to the link below. Not an inconsequential number when the Ivies only played nine games a year.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/ivyleague/harvard/yearly_results.php?year=1970

[Bogus Megapardus]

hope they're not expecting that new stadium

. . . which could be financed from the petty cash box at the Allston shoal, btw.

[Green26]

Harvard routinely played six and seven home games a year into the mid-1970's according to the link below. Not an inconsequential number when the Ivies only played nine games a year.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/ivyleague/harvard/yearly_results.php?year=1970

Dartmouth used to play Harvard and Yale on the road every year, until into the 70's. This would have inflated their home games a bit. Yale started playing Dartmouth in Hanover in 1971, which was only the 2nd time they'd ever played in Hanover and the first since 1898, I believe. I assume Harvard started playing at Dartmouth shortly thereafter.

[Ivytalk]

Harvard routinely played six and seven home games a year into the mid-1970's according to the link below. Not an inconsequential number when the Ivies only played nine games a year.

http://www.cfbdatawarehouse.com/data/div_iaa/ivyleague/harvard/yearly_results.php?year=1970

Harvard used to be able to "command" most OOC opponents to come to Cambridge. Not anymore!

[Cleets]

I've never seen so much Harvard chatter on AGS before...
It's all over the board

I find that odd (yet interesting) as Harvard slowly drifts into the realm of football irelevancy

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Harvard used to be able to "command" most OOC opponents to come to Cambridge. Not anymore!

See Lehigh, 2009. xlolx

[RichH2]

I've never seen so much Harvard chatter on AGS before...
It's all over the board

I find that odd (yet interesting) as Harvard slowly drifts into the realm of football irelevancy

Not a drift, just H-Y ego. They will always be the center of their own universe preeminently concerned with the GAME with the rest of the ILa distant 2nd Other than the NY Times, I dont think anyone else cares a whit about it.

[Bogus Megapardus]

I don't think anyone else cares a whit about it.

I think Harvard is the only one of the Eight that won't even play an NEC team, let alone a CCA team, as all the others do (at least on occasion).

[Ivytalk]

Not a drift, just H-Y ego. They will always be the center of their own universe preeminently concerned with the GAME with the rest of the ILa distant 2nd Other than the NY Times, I dont think anyone else cares a whit about it.

Chip on your shoulder, you old phart?:p

[Ivytalk]

I think Harvard is the only one of the Eight that won't even play an NEC team, let alone a CCA team, as all the others do (at least on occasion).

Well, we do have those San Diego Padres from the PFL coming up in '12 and '13. Harvard has never had a strong athletic connection of any kind to an NEC school, although we play Qunnipiac in ice hockey.

[RichH2]

Chip on your shoulder, you old phart?:p

xnodx OK, just a bit. Admit to being conflicted as I enjoyed playing against Ivies and still enjoy the games. On a serious note, my real issue , outside of PL-IL relationship, is the unfairness to football in the Ivies merely to preserve the GAME. Particularly when the stance has no merit. GAME will not lose any lustre if IL enters playoffs as it does in every other sport. LU-LC game has lost nothing since PL finally allowed football to participate in playoffs.
Of course will always be annoyed at losing 3out of 4 recruits to Ivies xrolleyesx.

[DFW HOYA]

On a serious note, my real issue , outside of PL-IL relationship, is the unfairness to football in the Ivies merely to preserve the GAME. Particularly when the stance has no merit.

And yet, there would be a outcry if the PL moved the Laf/Leh game off the last week of the regular season, wouldn't it?

Protecting the Harvard-Yale game is only one piece of the puzzle, but not the only piece. What is the incentive to change? Yes, on this board, we'd like to say it's playing for a national championship, but does the abilty to lose in week 12 before 5,000 people at New Hampshire or Youngstown State or Elon become more valuable than the rivalry games which have been in place for decades? Yes, maybe they'd win a first round game now and then, but few in the Ivy League see the road to Frisco as the driving force in playing college football, and certainly not at H-Y-P.

Notre Dame famously refused bowl invitations until 1970 and they were still awarded nine national championships. It was only when the landscape changed and ND saw that bowl bids were a positive for the program's continued visibility did the Irish move forward. How will the landscape change so that the Ivy League (and the SWAC, for that matter) sees playoff participation as vital for their programs?

[RichH2]

Gee,DFW certainly H-Y not only issue but it is I think the determinative one. Why would they have to move their game? many years it will be the finale to their season as one of the others will have won regular season. The unlikelihood of ultimate success in any given season should not determine whether or not one should try to achieve. If your goal is to be the best at any endeavor ,athletic , social or academic you should not be denied the opportunity to try

[DFW HOYA]

The same argument goes for Grambling and Southern--the incentive to change is not as valuable as the perceived opportunity cost (e.g., moving the Bayou Classic off Thanksgiving weekend probably drops the NBC agreement). Army turned down the 1968 Sugar Bowl because playing bowl games was not deemed in its mission during a period of wartime. Are football playoff games in the Ivy football mission?

What's the driver to change? As to a goal of being the best, the Ivy loyalists will say that being the best in the Ivy is good enough. It may not carry much weight outside the league, but that's the philosophy. I'm not saying the Ivy way is the best way, but what is the incentive to make Harvard want to play a 3rd place CAA team before 5,000 people and ESPN3 when you can end the season beating Yale in front of 60,000?

[RichH2]

Agree that that is the Harvard perspective and one unlikely tochange. My point ,in response to IvyTalk ,is simply that it is unfair to the other 6 teams and just wrong

[DFW HOYA]

Agree that that is the Harvard perspective and one unlikely tochange. My point ,in response to IvyTalk ,is simply that it is unfair to the other 6 teams and just wrong

Some would say being unfair to the other schools is fine by Harvard. There is no exit fee to leave the Ivy League, but no one's going anywhere.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Notre Dame famously refused bowl invitations until 1970 and they were still awarded nine national championships. It was only when the landscape changed and ND saw that bowl bids were a positive for the program's continued visibility did the Irish move forward. How will the landscape change so that the Ivy League (and the SWAC, for that matter) sees playoff participation as vital for their programs?

ND's decision happened for four reasons:

1) It seemed like a playoff system was never going to happen at the higher reaches of football.

2) High-ranked teams were not scheduling Notre Dame. To enhance their standing nationally, a bowl game ensured that they would play a "top team". In fact, in 1971 when the Irish were going to play a lower-ranked team, they declined a bowl invitation.

3) Southern teams were finally starting to integrate, notably Bear Bryant's formerly white Alabama teams. Almost all the bowl invitations were seen by Northern schools and like-minded schools like ND as tantamount to supporting segregation. (The Rose Bowl was the big exception, but of course that locked the Pac Ten/Big Ten winner every year.)

4) College football TV money, always significant, was ready to explode even further, lining the coffers of the big-time schools that chose to participate in the bowl system. ND wanted a piece of that pie.

That's the trouble with pulling from the ND analogy too closely. None of those four reasons really apply to the Ivy League and FCS at all.


Protecting the Harvard-Yale game is only one piece of the puzzle, but not the only piece. What is the incentive to change? Yes, on this board, we'd like to say it's playing for a national championship, but does the abilty to lose in week 12 before 5,000 people at New Hampshire or Youngstown State or Elon become more valuable than the rivalry games which have been in place for decades? Yes, maybe they'd win a first round game now and then, but few in the Ivy League see the road to Frisco as the driving force in playing college football, and certainly not at H-Y-P.

First of all, there is no way on God's Green Earth that Harvard would be sent to New Hampshire in any situation where the Wildcats aren't seeded.

To address your larger point, though, two factors plague the IL.

One is the clinging to the past history of "national championships" and appearances in the AP Top 25 with the likes of Notre Dame and the service academies. A significant portion of folks at H-Y-P see Vanderbilt and Stanford as their true peers - if they chose to compete there, that is.

The other is that football is the last outpost for their "non-scholarship" principles. The other sports have made so many concessions to their original principles (no freshmen on the teams, no athletic transfers, no NCAA Tournament participation, even no postseason tournaments) that it's seen like a change to football is the last straw to becoming completely corrupted by collegiate athletics.

As H-Y-P are the richest institutions of higher learning in the world, TV money is not going to affect their decisions. Only their internal views on their place in the athletic world will influence their decisions. Competing for a championship - like is done in, literally, every single other sport except for football - should be enough for them to relent. But it isn't.

You'll note that I didn't mention Harvard vs. Yale at all in the reasoning. I personally believe this has nothing to do with their decision to not participate. There is simply too much evidence that their "Game", rather than suffering as a result, would thrive if they chose to participate in the playoffs, as it would have a larger meaning nationally than it currently does. After all, Lehigh/Lafayette's string of sellouts was not even a little bit threatened by the PL's decision to participate - and, if anything, has made the profile of that rivalry rise nationally, just as it has for Montana/Montana State, Delaware/Villanova, and others.

[RichH2]

Nicely put LFN but all of us are talking to the wind as neither heaven nor earth will move the Ivies. Perhaps next century

[DFW HOYA]

A good discussion here. Some thoughts on each:

1. Notre Dame's reluctanbce to bowls was less about segregation and more about money--it wasn't until the 1960's that bowl payouts and TV made many of these games worth the commitment, and ND never needed bowl games to draw national interest. Ara parsheghain saw bowls as a recruiting tool and he didn't want to lose recruits nationally when its season ended in early Dec. The Cotton Bowl (at least in the SWC days) had money to spend and made sure schools had a good time coming to Dallas--the Cotton Bowl was the standard for bowl activities, which is why so many big-name schools wanted to attend it, and it was arguably the #2 or #3 bowl behind the Rose (Not anymore, but that's another topic). Once ND saw the bowls weren't so bad, it was OK.

2. I do think Ivy presidents cling to lower-aspiration football as a bulwark against professionalism and bringing in the "wrong kind" of students, however they define it. Maybe a few would like a NESCAC scheduling model (e.g., no non-conference games) but most are comfortable with the same 6-8 northeastern schools, which is why it took Georgetown so long to get its calls returned.

3. A playoff game doesn't affect Harvard-Yale but it does engender something the presidents are careful not to encourage--a competitive arms race. The eight schools go along with the Ivy Index as a form of mutual exclusivity--a school may bend, but will not break, the gentlemen's agreement that schools are not going to sign whoever it takes to win. In the presidents' paranoia, the idea of Dartmouth or Columbia signing a group of I-A transfers and JC players and stomping on the schedule to get into "the playoffs" is a scary proposition. They would be just as happy ending the season in November than escalating the game beyond their control...and isn't what this conversation is all about?

4. Related to the Ivy's firewall is how the PL will diplomatically handle merit aid, which will be spun as more palatable to its relationship with the Ivies than true scholarships. Nonetheless, the Ivy will tacitly begin to move many of the PL schools off future schedules. Some old-timers would argue, "oh, the Ivy would never stop playing Colgate," but check the future schedules, that drawdown is already in progress and the IL will do the same to any or all of the "scholarship" PL schools, just as they did to the old Yankee conference schools when that league began to step up and the Ivies were no longer competitive (see Dartmouth-UNH, Yale-Connecticut, Harvard-Massachusetts). Competitvely as well as philosophically, Ivy schools are not going to play three games a year agaisnt scholarship PL teams if they see an imbalance, athletic, academic, or otherwise imagined.

[LBPop]

My perspective on this comes from the recruiting visits with LBKid in 2003 and early 2004. The defending champion (Penn at that time) would wave around their ring(s) and clearly imply that winning the Ivy League championship was as good as it gets in I-AA football. (It wasn't called FCS at that time). But the wannabees in the Ivy League (i.e., Princeton) would tell us that they would be competing in the playoffs before that class graduated in 2008. They knew that this issue was a major disadvantage when competing with PL schools. Harvard and Yale simply didn't address the question...perhaps because they were Harvard and Yale. xrolleyesx

Obviously things can change in 8 years, but that's not very long in the history of schools that are more than 300 years old. So I do not see any new revelations coming from the Ivy League anytime soon. And by the way, Princeton was not alone in misleading recruits. LBKid was promised a new stadium by his junior year at Georgetown. He got a few brick columns and field turf. Oh well...

[RichH2]

Hi, Pop nice that you are sticking around, What do you guys think of Kelly possibly going to Yale?

[Lehigh Football Nation]

3. A playoff game doesn't affect Harvard-Yale but it does engender something the presidents are careful not to encourage--a competitive arms race. The eight schools go along with the Ivy Index as a form of mutual exclusivity--a school may bend, but will not break, the gentlemen's agreement that schools are not going to sign whoever it takes to win. In the presidents' paranoia, the idea of Dartmouth or Columbia signing a group of I-A transfers and JC players and stomping on the schedule to get into "the playoffs" is a scary proposition. They would be just as happy ending the season in November than escalating the game beyond their control...and isn't what this conversation is all about?

If Yale, of all places, is running this up the flagpole, the hypocrisy-o-meter leaps off the charts. Williams secured not a few FBS transfers himself - including, but not limited to, his starting QB last year, Patrick Witt - and they've been behind the end run to have their own FBS game vs. Army be a "bowl counter" for them while still all the while declaring themselves "non-scholarship".

Apparently if they do it, it's different than if Penn, Brown or Cornell does it. It is, however, par for the course when it comes to the tortured IL justifications of keeping the status quo.

If they are claiming that they're trying to stop a potential arms race in the Ivy League over the playoffs, they're denying what is already reality in terms of the Harvard/Yale rivalry if nothing else. Frankly, I don't see how playoffs or no playoffs makes that worse.

[Ivytalk]

A good discussion here. Some thoughts on each:

1. Notre Dame's reluctanbce to bowls was less about segregation and more about money--it wasn't until the 1960's that bowl payouts and TV made many of these games worth the commitment, and ND never needed bowl games to draw national interest. Ara parsheghain saw bowls as a recruiting tool and he didn't want to lose recruits nationally when its season ended in early Dec. The Cotton Bowl (at least in the SWC days) had money to spend and made sure schools had a good time coming to Dallas--the Cotton Bowl was the standard for bowl activities, which is why so many big-name schools wanted to attend it, and it was arguably the #2 or #3 bowl behind the Rose (Not anymore, but that's another topic). Once ND saw the bowls weren't so bad, it was OK.

2. I do think Ivy presidents cling to lower-aspiration football as a bulwark against professionalism and bringing in the "wrong kind" of students, however they define it. Maybe a few would like a NESCAC scheduling model (e.g., no non-conference games) but most are comfortable with the same 6-8 northeastern schools, which is why it took Georgetown so long to get its calls returned.

3. A playoff game doesn't affect Harvard-Yale but it does engender something the presidents are careful not to encourage--a competitive arms race. The eight schools go along with the Ivy Index as a form of mutual exclusivity--a school may bend, but will not break, the gentlemen's agreement that schools are not going to sign whoever it takes to win. In the presidents' paranoia, the idea of Dartmouth or Columbia signing a group of I-A transfers and JC players and stomping on the schedule to get into "the playoffs" is a scary proposition. They would be just as happy ending the season in November than escalating the game beyond their control...and isn't what this conversation is all about?

4. Related to the Ivy's firewall is how the PL will diplomatically handle merit aid, which will be spun as more palatable to its relationship with the Ivies than true scholarships. Nonetheless, the Ivy will tacitly begin to move many of the PL schools off future schedules. Some old-timers would argue, "oh, the Ivy would never stop playing Colgate," but check the future schedules, that drawdown is already in progress and the IL will do the same to any or all of the "scholarship" PL schools, just as they did to the old Yankee conference schools when that league began to step up and the Ivies were no longer competitive (see Dartmouth-UNH, Yale-Connecticut, Harvard-Massachusetts). Competitvely as well as philosophically, Ivy schools are not going to play three games a year agaisnt scholarship PL teams if they see an imbalance, athletic, academic, or otherwise imagined.

Very thoughtful exchanges going on. I'm on record many times over about my wish for Harvard to enter the football playoffs, just as it competes for the right to do every year in every other major sport. Playoff eligibility wouldn't affect The Game's status or attendance, and the Ivy presidents know that. Nowadays, crappy performance will affect The Game's attendance -- witness 26,000 at The Bowl to see a bad Yale team take on Harvard in '97, and non-sellout H-Y crowds at Harvard around the same time. It concerns me greatly that Ivy schools seem now to be restricting athletic "places" in their freshman classes more and more (witness Brown recently), whether in the name of "diversity" -- gee, can't we have just one more blind lesbian violinist -- or the unfortunate perception that athletes are a rung below the other students academically. I can't imagine that the Ivies are afraid to schedule PL competition if they all go scholly. The regional Patriot-Ivy rivalries are natural and, if the Ivies cut the PL for OOC, who else is left? Williams and Amherst? Will the Ivies go "back to the future" (early 1900s) and resort to scheduling D-II and D-!!! teams like UD- West Chester etc.? I doubt it. It's all very frustrating for this Harvard alumnus, who has zipped his wallet shut for Fair Harvard unless and until the Presidents see reason. Sorry about the rant. Carry on.

[van]

I can't imagine that the Ivies are afraid to schedule PL competition if they all go scholly. The regional Patriot-Ivy rivalries are natural and, if the Ivies cut the PL for OOC, who else is left? Williams and Amherst? Will the Ivies go "back to the future" (early 1900s) and resort to scheduling D-II and D-!!! teams like UD- West Chester etc.? I doubt it.

Agree with Ivy on this point. They need 3 OOC games each per year. If not Lehigh, Lafayette, Colgate, Holy Cross, Fordham, Georgetown or Bucknell, who are they gonna schedule? Besides, PL teams need to open up a slot in their schedule for the occasional Boston College, Penn State, Army, Navy, Rutgers, Syracuse, you get the idea.

[Pard4Life]

Notre Dame famously refused bowl invitations until 1970 and they were still awarded nine national championships.

http://www2.timesdispatch.com/mgmedia/image/0/354/109917/politifact-virginia-graphics/

Notre Dame beat Stanford in the 1925 Rose Bowl. See the Four Horseman.

[DFW HOYA]

Yes, ND played in the Rose Bowl in 1925, and that was the basis for the ban. Rockne took nearly a month to travel by train and back from Pasadena, at no small expense, and ND didn't see the need to do it again.

To the point of PL-Ivy raivalries, i went back to College Football Data Warehouse for the breakdown of Ivy non-conference games in 1981, 1991, 2001, and 2011. Any clerical errors (e.g. "Colgate had two games that year, not three!") are apologized in advance to draw a larger picture.

In 1981, just prior to the Ivy's transition to I-AA, PL teams accounted for 41% (10 of 24) of Ivy League non-conference games (Buck 1, Colg 2, Fordham 0, HC 5, Leh 1, Laf 1), the Yankee Conference had 9 of 24 (among them URI, UConn, Delaware, Maine, Richmond, W&M and Villanova), Army/Navy 4, and one I-A team (Rutgers).

In 1991 with the Ivy-PL arrangement in place, PL teams accounted for 79% (19 of 24) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 3, Colg 3, Fordham 3, HC 4, Leh 3, Laf 3), the A-10 Conference just 2, Army/Navy 1, , one outlying I-AA team (Marshall) and one I-A team (Stanford).

In 2001 (a nine game season), PL teams accounted for 81% (13 of 16) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 1, Colg 2, Fordham 2, Georgetown 0, HC 3, Leh 2, Laf 3, Towson 0), the A-10 Conference 3, no Army/Navy, and no I-A teams.

By 2011, PL teams dropped to 66% (16 of 24) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 2, Colg 2, Fordham 3, Georgetown 1, HC 3, Leh 1, Laf 4,) with the Colonial with 3, Army/Navy 0, and no I-A teams....but now five from the NEC.

My point was that if the Ivy really wanted to move away from scholarship PL teams, it could do so: reducing the PL to 6-8 games among the six scholarship teams assuming Fordham is still in the mix, compensate with 4-6 a year with a mix of Georgetown, Marist, or Davidson, 4-6 against NEC teams (including Central Connecticut and Bryant, who would be regional if not natural rivals), 4-6 versus northern CAA opponents, and 1-2 wild card games such as am Army-Yale, Princeton-Rutgers, a MEAC game or a more distant Pioneer team. With Harvard playing San Diego and Dartmouth playing Butler on future schedules, they're in the mix on a smaller scale.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Yes, ND played in the Rose Bowl in 1925, and that was the basis for the ban. Rockne took nearly a month to travel by train and back from Pasadena, at no small expense, and ND didn't see the need to do it again.

To the point of PL-Ivy raivalries, i went back to College Football Data Warehouse for the breakdown of Ivy non-conference games in 1981, 1991, 2001, and 2011. Any clerical errors (e.g. "Colgate had two games that year, not three!") are apologized in advance to draw a larger picture.

In 1981, just prior to the Ivy's transition to I-AA, PL teams accounted for 41% (10 of 24) of Ivy League non-conference games (Buck 1, Colg 2, Fordham 0, HC 5, Leh 1, Laf 1), the Yankee Conference had 9 of 24 (among them URI, UConn, Delaware, Maine, Richmond, W&M and Villanova), Army/Navy 4, and one I-A team (Rutgers).

In 1991 with the Ivy-PL arrangement in place, PL teams accounted for 79% (19 of 24) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 3, Colg 3, Fordham 3, HC 4, Leh 3, Laf 3), the A-10 Conference just 2, Army/Navy 1, , one outlying I-AA team (Marshall) and one I-A team (Stanford).

In 2001 (a nine game season), PL teams accounted for 81% (13 of 16) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 1, Colg 2, Fordham 2, Georgetown 0, HC 3, Leh 2, Laf 3, Towson 0), the A-10 Conference 3, no Army/Navy, and no I-A teams.

By 2011, PL teams dropped to 66% (16 of 24) of Ivy non-conference games (Buck 2, Colg 2, Fordham 3, Georgetown 1, HC 3, Leh 1, Laf 4,) with the Colonial with 3, Army/Navy 0, and no I-A teams....but now five from the NEC.

My point was that if the Ivy really wanted to move away from scholarship PL teams, it could do so: reducing the PL to 6-8 games among the six scholarship teams assuming Fordham is still in the mix, compensate with 4-6 a year with a mix of Georgetown, Marist, or Davidson, 4-6 against NEC teams (including Central Connecticut and Bryant, who would be regional if not natural rivals), 4-6 versus northern CAA opponents, and 1-2 wild card games such as am Army-Yale, Princeton-Rutgers, a MEAC game or a more distant Pioneer team. With Harvard playing San Diego and Dartmouth playing Butler on future schedules, they're in the mix on a smaller scale.

In 2011, I think the number might have been even greater that 81% since Lehigh/Penn was cancelled that year during that week as was Fordham/Columbia (which ended up being played after the season was over). I don't know if any other IL games with PL teams were cancelled, but since it was opening weekend it's likely that there were others that were cancelled like Princeton/Lafayette and Harvard/Holy Cross or other semi-traditional IL opening weekend opponents.

For our part, it removed a really, really tough OOC game from Lehigh's schedule that year. Had they played Penn and lost, it's likely that Lehigh would have been sent to Hofstra in the first round of the playoffs. Instead, Lehigh hosted the Pride in their first hosted I-AA playoff game of the modern era, and won a classic 27-24 OT victory.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

My point was that if the Ivy really wanted to move away from scholarship PL teams, it could do so: reducing the PL to 6-8 games among the six scholarship teams assuming Fordham is still in the mix, compensate with 4-6 a year with a mix of Georgetown, Marist, or Davidson, 4-6 against NEC teams (including Central Connecticut and Bryant, who would be regional if not natural rivals), 4-6 versus northern CAA opponents, and 1-2 wild card games such as am Army-Yale, Princeton-Rutgers, a MEAC game or a more distant Pioneer team. With Harvard playing San Diego and Dartmouth playing Butler on future schedules, they're in the mix on a smaller scale.

H-Y-P will never hurt for opponents. I once talked to Jerry Glanville at Portland State, and he actually was selling me on how great it would be to have Portland State play a game at Yale someday. The trouble is few teams pitch for games at Cornell, Columbia or Dartmouth outside of local teams, and in the case of Dartmouth all three of their closest potential OOC opponents have been in the FCS playoffs.

[Green26]

H-Y-P will never hurt for opponents. I once talked to Jerry Glanville at Portland State, and he actually was selling me on how great it would be to have Portland State play a game at Yale someday. The trouble is few teams pitch for games at Cornell, Columbia or Dartmouth outside of local teams, and in the case of Dartmouth all three of their closest potential OOC opponents have been in the FCS playoffs.

Montana tried to set up a game with Dartmouth in about 2007. I agree that many teams, at least in the west, would like to play a top Ivy team and maybe any Ivy team. If it could be worked out financially, I think Montana would consider playing an Ivy home and home. The thought is that it would be great to show the Montana players and the Montana fan base an Ivy school.

[Ivytalk]

In 2011, I think the number might have been even greater that 81% since Lehigh/Penn was cancelled that year during that week as was Fordham/Columbia (which ended up being played after the season was over). I don't know if any other IL games with PL teams were cancelled, but since it was opening weekend it's likely that there were others that were cancelled like Princeton/Lafayette and Harvard/Holy Cross or other semi-traditional IL opening weekend opponents.

For our part, it removed a really, really tough OOC game from Lehigh's schedule that year. Had they played Penn and lost, it's likely that Lehigh would have been sent to Hofstra in the first round of the playoffs. Instead, Lehigh hosted the Pride in their first hosted I-AA playoff game of the modern era, and won a classic 27-24 OT victory.

Harvard-Holy Cross was cancelled in 2001 due to 9-11. Harvard ended up 9-0 that year. Seems like the trend is toward more non-PL OOC opponents for the Ivies, but I think Harvard gets Georgetown in 2014 after the home-and-home with San Diego is done. I haven't seen any schedule further out than that.