Ivy League Athletic Aid

[Pard4Life]

Any questions that the PL is not at a disadvantage? Sure it's not a pure athletic scholarship (wink wink) but is for most of the athletes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/12/23/sports/financial-aid-changes-game-as-sports-teams-in-ivies-rise.html?_r=1&hpw

[RichH2]

Interesting article but nothing we PL guys dont already know but enlightening I think for those that think the IL is non scholarship

[Doc QB]

Interesting article but nothing we PL guys dont already know but enlightening I think for those that think the IL is non scholarship

RichH2, agree, but we kicked them around this year, so I dont care how much they "give." You look at their sidelines and ours, many of those Ivies have a ton of kids who belong on division three rosters, so I really dont see the H-Y-P aid package advantage killing us by any means.

[RichH2]

RichH2, agree, but we kicked them around this year, so I dont care how much they "give." You look at their sidelines and ours, many of those Ivies have a ton of kids who belong on division three rosters, so I really dont see the H-Y-P aid package advantage killing us by any means.

Agree. Even more so 2014 and onward. Early recruit returns IL, as usual ,signing lots of real good kids. Lately that has not translated to better football. For us, No confirmed commits , lots of offers.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

RichH2, agree, but we kicked them around this year, so I dont care how much they "give." You look at their sidelines and ours, many of those Ivies have a ton of kids who belong on division three rosters, so I really dont see the H-Y-P aid package advantage killing us by any means.

I don't totally agree with this. Patrick Witt was never in consideration to come to Lehigh instead of Yale, nor was Mike McLeod. An when it comes to recruiting athletes, you see all the time when Princeton, Penn or Yale offers ahead of a PL school, they take the Ivy League choice. Sometimes a Lehigh, Lafayette or Holy Cross wins out, but they lose more than they win, generally.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

One thing I keep thinking about, reflecting on 2011, was that this was supposed to be the year of the Ivy League quarterback. Witt was supposed to be a world-beater, as was Schweiger, and a slew of returning starters. In contrast, the PL seemed like a rebuilding year all around, with so many QBs needing to be replaced and Lum being the closest thing to being a superstar returning (and before the season, nobody had him pegged as a Payton finalist).

But Lehigh dominated Yale, Holy Cross beat Harvard and Dartmouth (but lost to Brown), and Lafayette dominated Penn in their best game of the year. On balance the PL/Ivy record was pretty close, as it always seems to be, but these high-profile losses by the Ivy really, IMO, were striking and made the PL seem like they had the upper hand this year - even in an "off year". Even Fordham's win against Columbia and Colgate's OT win at Cornell seemed to bear this out.

So why was this the case? Bad Ivy coaching? A general lack of caring about the OOC plate? (I suspect this was the case with Yale's Tom Williams at a bare minimum.) Worse athletes? A Lehigh buzzsaw and a whole lot of favorable matchups for the PL side? It's hard to pinpoint, but I don't think it's talent. If you lined up Yale's Rivals-rated players and Lehigh's and tried to predict who would win, you'd probably have said Yale.

[LBPop]

"A recruited Ivy League athlete must have the academic credentials to survive the stringent and highly selective admissions process at each institution. Coaches have little sway in the admissions process, although they do provide a list of potential athletes to admissions officials."

I am having difficulty typing this while I am laughing out loud. Of course things could have changed, but when LBKid was on the recruiting trail eight years ago, we visited several of the Ivies. Now he was a "high band kid", so the issue wasn't academics...candidly, it was size. But when the issue of admissions came up I asked the coach how many of the previous year's class would have been accepted without being football recruits. He quickly said, "About two". Not suggesting that football players are dummies at all. But to say that the coaches have "little sway" is just silly.

[bluehenbillk]

I give the Ivy League major kudos.

In a time where the cost of a college education is skyrocketing everywhere, the Ivy League is the salmon swimming the other way. The article is dead on that many kids who just 5-10 years ago could have never thought of going to one of those institutions can now because of the grant money that these schools now provide, making an Ivy league education cheaper than that you could find at your local community college for much of America.

Believe me, when my kids are old enough and my choices are send them to an Ivy League school and get the best education available & graduate with no student loan debt, versus send them elsewhere for less of an education and be suffering five or six digit student loan debt, seriously, is that even a friggin question.

Only issue is you have to be smart enough to get in.

[Ivytalk]

No surprises, given the new approach to financial aid announced by Harvard and Princeton a few years back. Now it looks like the other Ivies have followed suit. Those schools are swimming in money, even if some endowments were trimmed during the recession.

[Engineer86]

RichH2, agree, but we kicked them around this year, so I dont care how much they "give." You look at their sidelines and ours, many of those Ivies have a ton of kids who belong on division three rosters, so I really dont see the H-Y-P aid package advantage killing us by any means.

Chck Dibilio is the perfect example of where we lose. First freshman to go over 1000 yds in Ivy history at Princeton. He showed his talent in his first college game against us. His parents do well, had we had merit based, he would have been at Lehigh. He was at several LU games his senior year, family used to live in the development across the street from the stadium.

[MplsBison]

Chck Dibilio is the perfect example of where we lose. First freshman to go over 1000 yds in Ivy history at Princeton. He showed his talent in his first college game against us. His parents do well, had we had merit based, he would have been at Lehigh. He was at several LU games his senior year, family used to live in the development across the street from the stadium.

I can't believe there are still guys out there, like Bogus, who would try to argue that this kid doesn't deserve a grant from the athletic department - because his parents make too much money!

What a sick joke.

[Pard4Life]

I can't believe there are still guys out there, like Bogus, who would try to argue that this kid doesn't deserve a grant from the athletic department - because his parents make too much money!

What a sick joke.

? That's exactly our problem... we can't recruit all of the quality kids out there because of their family earnings. I don't think anyone in the PL agrees with the current model, except some Pioneer people maybe.

[RichH2]

PFL ,for all its'annoying posters, does in reality, what Ivies only preach , provide a true non scholarship athletic football program. Whether you agree or disagree with the philosophy, PFL does not annoint hyprocrisy in the name of academic purity as the Ivies do.

[MplsBison]

? That's exactly our problem... we can't recruit all of the quality kids out there because of their family earnings. I don't think anyone in the PL agrees with the current model, except some Pioneer people maybe.

I was saying that I can't believe there are still fans of PL schools who DO believe in the "need-based" ideology. (like Bogus)

It's just a scam to avoid having to meet title IX equality requirements, anyway. Then again, I suppose women don't belong at such fine higher education institutions anyway.

[MplsBison]

PFL ,for all its'annoying posters, does in reality, what Ivies only preach , provide a true non scholarship athletic football program. Whether you agree or disagree with the philosophy, PFL does not annoint hyprocrisy in the name of academic purity as the Ivies do.

That's such bs. As if they were the lone beacon of light in an aybss of darkness.

Every PFL men's basketball team, just like Georgetown, recruits players to be competitive on the national level and gives athletic scholarships in order to attract those top players.

If the PFL athletic departments really did believe in the DIII ideology, they wouldn't give athletic aid for men's basketball. Fat chance of that happening.


No....it's all about convenience for the PFL schools. They're pissed off that they used to be able to play in DIII football, then got kicked out for being able to cheat that system and now refuse to play by the same rules in FCS that everyone else plays by. Piss on them.

[Bill]

Mpls
Please don’t cast wide assumptions over all Patriot programs. They were not all DIII teams – only GTown and Fordham played on that level. Lehigh was DII – just like NDSU.
This of course does not include Colgate and Holy Cross, who came down to I-AA!

[ngineer]

"A recruited Ivy League athlete must have the academic credentials to survive the stringent and highly selective admissions process at each institution. Coaches have little sway in the admissions process, although they do provide a list of potential athletes to admissions officials."

I am having difficulty typing this while I am laughing out loud. Of course things could have changed, but when LBKid was on the recruiting trail eight years ago, we visited several of the Ivies. Now he was a "high band kid", so the issue wasn't academics...candidly, it was size. But when the issue of admissions came up I asked the coach how many of the previous year's class would have been accepted without being football recruits. He quickly said, "About two". Not suggesting that football players are dummies at all. But to say that the coaches have "little sway" is just silly.

Absolutely, we lost a couple kids to Penn the past few years who were denied admission at Lehigh.

[MplsBison]

Mpls
Please don’t cast wide assumptions over all Patriot programs. They were not all DIII teams – only GTown and Fordham played on that level. Lehigh was DII – just like NDSU.
This of course does not include Colgate and Holy Cross, who came down to I-AA!

PFL = Pioneer Football League
PL = Patriot League, which is for more than just football

This is standard, known AGS terminology.

The Pioneer teams played DIII football, not just in ideology - they actually played in DIII. They got kicked out of that division because they were spending money they earned from DI basketball on the football programs, giving them an unfair advantage over real DIII programs.

Therefore, the NCAA forced them to play in DI. They of course opted to play in FCS, since it unfortunately has no scholarship minimum, which allowed them to keep playing football without spending any money on the programs.

[Bill]

Mpls

Sorry about the lingo ignorance! I'm aware of the whole NCAA legislation which created those I-AA teams...

I guess I better study up on my acronyms xcoffeex

[DFW HOYA]

PFL = Pioneer Football League
The Pioneer teams played DIII football, not just in ideology - they actually played in DIII. They got kicked out of that division because they were spending money they earned from DI basketball on the football programs, giving them an unfair advantage over real DIII programs.


Three of the original six Pioneer schools were Division II programs.

[DJOM]

Original 6 of PFL participated in football at the DI, DII and DIII levels.
The members of the PFL are very well respected at the academic level.
The need system used by the Ivy League is very stringent, but also appears to allow students to attend these institutions who otherwise could not.

[Engineer86]

Original 6 of PFL participated in football at the DI, DII and DIII levels.
The members of the PFL are very well respected at the academic level.
The need system used by the Ivy League is very stringent, but also appears to allow students to attend these institutions who otherwise could not.

Well when one group provides for need under $180K and others are providing need under $50K, I would call that uite an advantage, wouldn't you? Then lets throw on the Academic Index so you try to force another league to follow your academic standards, while you give much more money, yea, I would say that is an advantage.
xnodxxrotatehxxrolleyesxxcrazyx and ultimately the league presidentsxbowxxbowxxbowx to your league

[Wildcat80]

"A recruited Ivy League athlete must have the academic credentials to survive the stringent and highly selective admissions process at each institution. Coaches have little sway in the admissions process, although they do provide a list of potential athletes to admissions officials."

I am having difficulty typing this while I am laughing out loud. Of course things could have changed, but when LBKid was on the recruiting trail eight years ago, we visited several of the Ivies. Now he was a "high band kid", so the issue wasn't academics...candidly, it was size. But when the issue of admissions came up I asked the coach how many of the previous year's class would have been accepted without being football recruits. He quickly said, "About two". Not suggesting that football players are dummies at all. But to say that the coaches have "little sway" is just silly.


That is a little misleading......it is difficult for ANY applicant to get into an IVY without some edge. Football gives otherwise equally talented students THE edge to get in. By design the football team is exactly like the rest of the students. 20,000 apply....barely 2000 get in to HYP. Fortunately 30 have been football players.

[RichH2]

While coaches may not control admissions as they do at many schools,Ivy coaches do get preferences for their recruits to get into school. These come into play after a candidate has been academically qualified

[LBPop]

[/I][/B]
That is a little misleading......it is difficult for ANY applicant to get into an IVY without some edge. Football gives otherwise equally talented students THE edge to get in. By design the football team is exactly like the rest of the students. 20,000 apply....barely 2000 get in to HYP. Fortunately 30 have been football players.

Please do not compare the general admission policy to that which is used to admit football players. I should have added another "anecdotal statistic" that the Ivy coach cited. I asked how many recruits that they recommended in the previous year were not admitted. He said there were three. So the football recruit "edge" (as you put it), yields about a 90% acceptance rate. But the general population yields a 10% to 15% acceptance rate. It's reality and that's why they have the banding system. I'm not complaining at all. My problem is when a coach says that he has "little sway". It's nonsense.

[Green26]

Comparing (anecdotal) rates of athlete recruit list acceptances to acceptance rates for the school is a bit of apples to oranges. Athletic recruits put on the recruit list have already been screened to fit into the academic bands. A recruit that won't fit into the bands, or would result in too many recruits in the lower bands, is not going to be put on the recruit list. Once on the recruit list, the chances are being accepted are very high. While the coach creates his own recruit list, this does not assure acceptance. At some schools, the coaches have no contact with the admissions department. All communications are filtered through a layer or two of administrators. Thus, the influence of the coach in admissions is only the inclusion of the recruit on the recruit list. A recruit considering an athletic scholarship for which commitment must be made by early February, can have his admission pre-considered ahead of time and obtain a "likely" (to admit) letter (I think that's the common name). Yes, non-athletic scholarship schools that offer better financial aid packages have an advantage over a school that has lesser financial aid packages. And schools that offer full-ride athletic scholarships have advantages over schools that don't have athletic scholarships. To both of those things, I say "so what". They're just facts of life (and recruiting). Ivy schools with early admission programs get a good chunk of their recruit-list athletes through the early admission process--because the coach knows that the recruit is committed to coming to the school if he is admitted. Waiting for the spring acceptance period can improve a recruit's chances of getting a better financial aid package, because the most schools will match better financial aid packages (when brought to the attention of the coach and financial aid office). In the old days, before the settlement with the US antitrust regulators, financial aid packages at all Ivy (and some other top) schools were exactly the same for the commonly accepted applicants. While there are still some similarities in financial aid guidelines, the guidelines are not the same, and the schools can no longer meet ahead of acceptances to standardize financial aid packages. I assume many of you already know all or most of this, but I assume some of you may not have known all of this.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Ivy schools with early admission programs get a good chunk of their recruit-list athletes through the early admission process--because the coach knows that the recruit is committed to coming to the school if he is admitted. Waiting for the spring acceptance period can improve a recruit's chances of getting a better financial aid package, because the most schools will match better financial aid packages (when brought to the attention of the coach and financial aid office). In the old days, before the settlement with the US antitrust regulators, financial aid packages at all Ivy (and some other top) schools were exactly the same for the commonly accepted applicants. While there are still some similarities in financial aid guidelines, the guidelines are not the same, and the schools can no longer meet ahead of acceptances to standardize financial aid packages. I assume many of you already know all or most of this, but I assume some of you may not have known all of this.

That change from the "one Ivy" policy to the "every Ivy for themselves" policy had drastic effects inside the Ivy League, and by extension the Patriot League as well. Suppose you're a kid whose parents are making less than $100,000 a year, and you're choosing between Harvard, Dartmouth and Cornell. At Harvard, everything is paid for, essentially, while at Dartmouth and Cornell it is not. That's a huge advantage.

I never thought, though, about the "likely letter" in conjunction with the aid. Not only does it basically "tie in" the scholarship aid the same way that a football scholarship does with the "letter of intent" (making the "likely letter" the exact same thing as a LOI, which was supposedly designed to be different), it also is incredibly unfair to potential applicants, meaning that players cannot pick and choose between offers. The LOI system is the same way, too - it attempts to stop the forces of supply and demand.

[Green26]

Given the antitrust aspect; varying endowment sizes and financial aid policies; and no athletic scholarships; I don't see an answer that would be a legal alternative to every Ivy (and PL) school for itself. Do you?

[DFW HOYA]

That change from the "one Ivy" policy to the "every Ivy for themselves" policy had drastic effects inside the Ivy League, and by extension the Patriot League as well. Suppose you're a kid whose parents are making less than $100,000 a year, and you're choosing between Harvard, Dartmouth and Cornell. At Harvard, everything is paid for, essentially, while at Dartmouth and Cornell it is not. That's a huge advantage.

I never thought, though, about the "likely letter" in conjunction with the aid. Not only does it basically "tie in" the scholarship aid the same way that a football scholarship does with the "letter of intent" (making the "likely letter" the exact same thing as a LOI, which was supposedly designed to be different), it also is incredibly unfair to potential applicants, meaning that players cannot pick and choose between offers. The LOI system is the same way, too - it attempts to stop the forces of supply and demand.

Two points:

1. No one has to sign an LOI. An LOI is not required for a scholarship offer, it's a gentlemen's agreement not to further recruit a prospective student athlete once they commit--but it's not an offer of admission. Schools like kids to sign because it eliminates uncertainty and fills their class.

2. H-Y-P have essentially set themselves apart in the aid process. With L-L-C do the same in the Patriot League?

[Doc QB]

Chck Dibilio is the perfect example of where we lose. First freshman to go over 1000 yds in Ivy history at Princeton. He showed his talent in his first college game against us. His parents do well, had we had merit based, he would have been at Lehigh. He was at several LU games his senior year, family used to live in the development across the street from the stadium.

I still believe, and LFN's second post after mine way back, actually helps to prove my point, all H-Y-P aid bonuses aside, I havent seen it on the field consistently. Its has been a full four year recruiting cycle this has been in effect, and the Ivy has not been beating our asses weekly. Do they win some recruiting battles, sure, they always will, they are eight very, very special places. That will never change. They will always be the Ancient Eight, and they won't expand despite Colgate and Tufts folks thinking they will someday be included.

I would agree here about Dibilio, but he is one example, and plenty of local kids would not want to stay at home and prefer to go off and experience a new place for four years. Whitehall's tailback the year before chose UPenn, too. But, it still boils down to demonstrated need. I think it is probably rare a kid like Dibilio who parents make just too much to get any money from Patriot League schools but earn "just under" the ceiling to go for free at H-Y-P. Most families will earn too much to get aid at either, or earn well enough that if the PL wanted to give the full amount in grants to match the Ivy offer, it would usually be similar dollars wise. I truly think the higher ceiling the Ivy League has does not snatch up all that many guys, if you do the math, its probably just a few families too rich for PL and still not rich enough for IL and get more money. The total Ivy experience is where we may lose some guys, always will.

From my recruiting in 1990...UPenn's QB coach Dick Maloney sent me the app...stating very clearly that the one I sent away for in the mail was not to be used. On the bottom of the one from him, page one of the app, on the bottom under 'office use only' was a series of boxes with codes already listed in them. Obviously, that application was meant for football admit considerations and a different pile on the desk. Second, I still have the hand written card from Harvard's Joe Restic, stating, "Jim, break 1000 and come to Harvard for four great years." As a Qb recruit, pretty obvious he meant SATs and not passing yards (senior year 1625, career 2021). The coaches have pull within the bands for a certain number of bodies and get lucky with a few guys they dont have to fight about at all to fill rosters.

I just dont see the Ivy advantage on the field. And when I was at Lehigh, for the 91-92 seasons, we beat a Fiedler led Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia, Brown, lost to Keith Elias and Princeton, Scott Olario and Cornell. Had been beating them up the few years prior, after I left, the Ivy took it to the PL a few seasons, prompting a few news articles about Ivy supremacy and the PL taking a dump. It is all cyclical, head coach and a few special players making the differences. I think it really remains to be seen if the newer aid structure really changes anything consistently and we just dont see the same cycles related to coaching and gamebreakers.

[RichH2]

I still believe, and LFN's second post after mine way back, actually helps to prove my point, all H-Y-P aid bonuses aside, I havent seen it on the field consistently. Its has been a full four year recruiting cycle this has been in effect, and the Ivy has not been beating our asses weekly. Do they win some recruiting battles, sure, they always will, they are eight very, very special places. That will never change. They will always be the Ancient Eight, and they won't expand despite Colgate and Tufts folks thinking they will someday be included.

I would agree here about Dibilio, but he is one example, and plenty of local kids would not want to stay at home and prefer to go off and experience a new place for four years. Whitehall's tailback the year before chose UPenn, too. But, it still boils down to demonstrated need. I think it is probably rare a kid like Dibilio who parents make just too much to get any money from Patriot League schools but earn "just under" the ceiling to go for free at H-Y-P. Most families will earn too much to get aid at either, or earn well enough that if the PL wanted to give the full amount in grants to match the Ivy offer, it would usually be similar dollars wise. I truly think the higher ceiling the Ivy League has does not snatch up all that many guys, if you do the math, its probably just a few families too rich for PL and still not rich enough for IL and get more money. The total Ivy experience is where we may lose some guys, always will.

From my recruiting in 1990...UPenn's QB coach Dick Maloney sent me the app...stating very clearly that the one I sent away for in the mail was not to be used. On the bottom of the one from him, page one of the app, on the bottom under 'office use only' was a series of boxes with codes already listed in them. Obviously, that application was meant for football admit considerations and a different pile on the desk. Second, I still have the hand written card from Harvard's Joe Restic, stating, "Jim, break 1000 and come to Harvard for four great years." As a Qb recruit, pretty obvious he meant SATs and not passing yards (senior year 1625, career 2021). The coaches have pull within the bands for a certain number of bodies and get lucky with a few guys they dont have to fight about at all to fill rosters.

I just dont see the Ivy advantage on the field. And when I was at Lehigh, for the 91-92 seasons, we beat a Fiedler led Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia, Brown, lost to Keith Elias and Princeton, Scott Olario and Cornell. Had been beating them up the few years prior, after I left, the Ivy took it to the PL a few seasons, prompting a few news articles about Ivy supremacy and the PL taking a dump. It is all cyclical, head coach and a few special players making the differences. I think it really remains to be seen if the newer aid structure really changes anything consistently and we just dont see the same cycles related to coaching and gamebreakers.


By all rights the combination of Ivy prestige and generous student aid should should make the league much more dominate in OOC games than they are. Agree with Doc, coaching staff is a key factor. By that logic, Cornell should win the IL every year. SUNY Ithaca has by far the largest poolof kids to draw from , yet cannot seem to put together a team. Coaching!

With comparable coaching, the talent level in IL will , of necessity prevail more often than not. Lehigh has been blessed since Dunlap with very good HCs and staffs . Andy has continued that tradition, recovering quite well from the OC fiasco.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

By all rights the combination of Ivy prestige and generous student aid should should make the league much more dominate in OOC games than they are. Agree with Doc, coaching staff is a key factor. By that logic, Cornell should win the IL every year. SUNY Ithaca has by far the largest poolof kids to draw from , yet cannot seem to put together a team. Coaching!

But Cornell also gets squeezed in athletic aid, too. They don't pay the whole way if the family makes $100,000 a year, but H-Y-P does. I bet there are a fair amount of kids sitting on the bench at Harvard that would start at Cornell.

Cornell, you can argue, gets squeezed both ways. They get pinched by Colgate/Lehigh/Lafayette in terms of academics AND grant-in-aids to certain players (and, perhaps, FCS playoff participation), and also get squeezed at the top by H-Y-P by financial aid and reputation. It's not all about coaching.

Didn't Cornell most recently get beat down by the other Ivies by offering a form of grant-in-aid that was similar to the PL's system? I think so. Both Cornell and Brown have done some things to try to level the playing field with H-Y-P, but have been smacked down by the "big three" every time.

[van]

Cornell should have an advantage with in state NY kids, based on the SUNY side of Cornell.

[MplsBison]

I still believe, and LFN's second post after mine way back, actually helps to prove my point, all H-Y-P aid bonuses aside, I havent seen it on the field consistently. Its has been a full four year recruiting cycle this has been in effect, and the Ivy has not been beating our asses weekly. Do they win some recruiting battles, sure, they always will, they are eight very, very special places. That will never change. They will always be the Ancient Eight, and they won't expand despite Colgate and Tufts folks thinking they will someday be included.

I would agree here about Dibilio, but he is one example, and plenty of local kids would not want to stay at home and prefer to go off and experience a new place for four years. Whitehall's tailback the year before chose UPenn, too. But, it still boils down to demonstrated need. I think it is probably rare a kid like Dibilio who parents make just too much to get any money from Patriot League schools but earn "just under" the ceiling to go for free at H-Y-P. Most families will earn too much to get aid at either, or earn well enough that if the PL wanted to give the full amount in grants to match the Ivy offer, it would usually be similar dollars wise. I truly think the higher ceiling the Ivy League has does not snatch up all that many guys, if you do the math, its probably just a few families too rich for PL and still not rich enough for IL and get more money. The total Ivy experience is where we may lose some guys, always will.

From my recruiting in 1990...UPenn's QB coach Dick Maloney sent me the app...stating very clearly that the one I sent away for in the mail was not to be used. On the bottom of the one from him, page one of the app, on the bottom under 'office use only' was a series of boxes with codes already listed in them. Obviously, that application was meant for football admit considerations and a different pile on the desk. Second, I still have the hand written card from Harvard's Joe Restic, stating, "Jim, break 1000 and come to Harvard for four great years." As a Qb recruit, pretty obvious he meant SATs and not passing yards (senior year 1625, career 2021). The coaches have pull within the bands for a certain number of bodies and get lucky with a few guys they dont have to fight about at all to fill rosters.

I just dont see the Ivy advantage on the field. And when I was at Lehigh, for the 91-92 seasons, we beat a Fiedler led Dartmouth, Penn, Columbia, Brown, lost to Keith Elias and Princeton, Scott Olario and Cornell. Had been beating them up the few years prior, after I left, the Ivy took it to the PL a few seasons, prompting a few news articles about Ivy supremacy and the PL taking a dump. It is all cyclical, head coach and a few special players making the differences. I think it really remains to be seen if the newer aid structure really changes anything consistently and we just dont see the same cycles related to coaching and gamebreakers.

How can Stanford, a better school academically than the Ivy schools, recruit such superior talent?

[DFW HOYA]

Cornell should have an advantage with in state NY kids, based on the SUNY side of Cornell.

Except that the Ivy Index applies whether you're an ag major or a physics major.

Has anyone explained why banding is OK for athletes but not for the general applicant population? One could imagine the call into the admissions office at Yale: "Yes, your son has a 1470 and a 3.9. But we're only allowed to take ten of them. If he had a 1490 we can take 15 more."

[MplsBison]

Except that the Ivy Index applies whether you're an ag major or a physics major.

Has anyone explained why banding is OK for athletes but not for the general applicant population? One could imagine the call into the admissions office at Yale: "Yes, your son has a 1470 and a 3.9. But we're only allowed to take ten of them. If he had a 1490 we can take 15 more."

Because the Ivy League doesn't give a crap how the schools fill their general population.

They just want to make sure that the guys on the teams aren't a bunch of dumb minorities from the inner city who can play ball.

[DFW HOYA]

They just want to make sure that the guys on the teams aren't a bunch of dumb minorities from the inner city who can play ball.

The Ivies tend to recruit football from private and suburban public schools.

[Ivytalk]

How can Stanford, a better school academically than the Ivy schools, recruit such superior talent?

You have no basis for the "better school academically" statement. None.

[Green26]

As pointed out, Stanford is not a better school, has lower admissions criteria for football players than the Ivies, is FBS, has athletic scholarships, and has better quality football.

[DFW HOYA]

As pointed out, Stanford is not a better school, has lower admissions criteria for football players than the Ivies, is FBS, has athletic scholarships, and has better quality football.

It's splitting hairs to say a Stanford education is "not a better school" than Ivy league programs. Its applied sciences programs are as good as anyone outside MIT, and even with H-Y-P a Stanford degree is still in the top five of Division I. What Palo Alto offers that Cambridge or New Haven doesn't is a unique location in the nexus of Silicon Valley, a relatively young universty with tremendous connections...and an unparalleled commitment to championship athletics across all its sports, not just a few.

A Stanford athlete is a student-athlete in every sense of the word, and while the Ivies rationalize not playing scholarship programs for competitive reasons, here's Stanford recruiting the best kids they can doing battle with USC and Notre Dame and Oregon and going to BCS bowls in the process. Good for them.

[Green26]

It's splitting hairs to say a Stanford education is "not a better school" than Ivy league programs. Its applied sciences programs are as good as anyone outside MIT, and even with H-Y-P a Stanford degree is still in the top five of Division I. What Palo Alto offers that Cambridge or New Haven doesn't is a unique location in the nexus of Silicon Valley, a relatively young universty with tremendous connections...and an unparalleled commitment to championship athletics across all its sports, not just a few.

A Stanford athlete is a student-athlete in every sense of the word, and while the Ivies rationalize not playing scholarship programs for competitive reasons, here's Stanford recruiting the best kids they can doing battle with USC and Notre Dame and Oregon and going to BCS bowls in the process. Good for them.

It looks like you're the one who's trying to split hairs. Are you trying to tell us the applied sciences programs are what are attracting the high quality of football players? Or that the proximity to Silicon Valley is what is attracting the good football players? Ha-ha; that's pretty funny. I know Stanford fairly well, having had a kid there as an undergraduate as recently as earlier this year, having spent 3 years there myself, being good friends with a former Stanford head coach from relatively recent years, and knowing the prior athletic director. I agree that it's a terrific school.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

It looks like you're the one who's trying to split hairs. Are you trying to tell us the applied sciences programs are what are attracting the high quality of football players? Or that the proximity to Silicon Valley is what is attracting the good football players? Ha-ha; that's pretty funny. I know Stanford fairly well, having had a kid there as an undergraduate as recently as earlier this year, having spent 3 years there myself, being good friends with a former Stanford head coach from relatively recent years, and knowing the prior athletic director. I agree that it's a terrific school.

Hopefully you didn't know the admissions director from Swarthmore, who was busy trying to downgrade Cardinal football after successfully shoveling dirt on the Garnet football program. Fortunately Condy RIce would have nothing of that. xlolx

Teevens had a pretty thankless job there at Stanford in those days. Fortunately for him, he's got a better situation (again) at Dartmouth - if the fans aren't restless for more.

[DFW HOYA]

It looks like you're the one who's trying to split hairs. Are you trying to tell us the applied sciences programs are what are attracting the high quality of football players? Or that the proximity to Silicon Valley is what is attracting the good football players? Ha-ha; that's pretty funny. I know Stanford fairly well, having had a kid there as an undergraduate as recently as earlier this year, having spent 3 years there myself, being good friends with a former Stanford head coach from relatively recent years, and knowing the prior athletic director. I agree that it's a terrific school.

I was speaking to the strength of the school amidst the earlier quote that Stanford was "not a better school" than an Ivy. It stands toe to toe with all of them and, of course, it would overwhelm any of them in football.

[Green26]

I was speaking to the strength of the school amidst the earlier quote that Stanford was "not a better school" than an Ivy. It stands toe to toe with all of them and, of course, it would overwhelm any of them in football.

Okay, fine. No disagreement. However, you may want to follow the thread better. Those of us who said Stanford was not a better school than the Ivies were responding to what Mpls Bison indicated, which was that Stanford was a better school than the Ivies. Several of us said, no, Stanford is not a better school. Note that we didn't say the Ivies were better schools. Then you made your post. No big deal.

[DFW HOYA]

Understood. Thanks.

[MplsBison]

Okay, fine. No disagreement. However, you may want to follow the thread better. Those of us who said Stanford was not a better school than the Ivies were responding to what Mpls Bison indicated, which was that Stanford was a better school than the Ivies. Several of us said, no, Stanford is not a better school. Note that we didn't say the Ivies were better schools. Then you made your post. No big deal.

Several two of you.

Is Stanford better than MIT? No, probably not. But it's certainly better than the Ivy schools, especially the lower 4.


All while fielding a nationally competitive football team - at the BCS level - which doesn't diminish the academic prowess of the school by a single iota.

[NoDak 4 Ever]

Several two of you.

Is Stanford better than MIT? No, probably not. But it's certainly better than the Ivy schools, especially the lower 4.


All while fielding a nationally competitive football team - at the BCS level - which doesn't diminish the academic prowess of the school by a single iota.

I was kind of looking at it like this. Stanford, to me, seems more of a birthplace for opportunity because of its proximity to silicon valley. One of my friends from high school is the CTO of Evernote, and one of his dorm buddies is also part of the management team. Just down the hall, Jerry Yang was forming Yahoo and Larry Page was hatching Google. MIT grads become world leaders and academics, Standford grads become billionaires in an astoundingly large fashion.

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Is Stanford better than MIT?

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

[VT Wildcat Fan53]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

Touche. Time to move on, ....

[Green26]

Several two of you.

Is Stanford better than MIT? No, probably not. But it's certainly better than the Ivy schools, especially the lower 4.


All while fielding a nationally competitive football team - at the BCS level - which doesn't diminish the academic prowess of the school by a single iota.

So you're asking how Stanford out recruits the bottom 4 of the Ivies, or are you saying Stanford out recruits the bottom 4 of the Ivies because it is stronger academicially?

[van]

How many angels can dance on the head of a pin?

How would they compare to the MEAC?

[Ivytalk]

How would they compare to the MEAC?

Harvard gets confused with Howard all the time!;)

[Lehigh Football Nation]

Harvard gets confused with Howard all the time!;)

H..rd. Close!